Britain Is More Germanic than It Thinks

[Heart of Oak]

The Irish traveled to Scotland an settled as it was wetter/colder than Ireland in 800bc they took with them there snakes an shalaylies Bagpipes an some small fury animals that also flourished an became known as the Haggis that is enjoyed by all Scots today with peas an carrots. The Highlands and lowlands are made up of hills an countryside that have weather all year round, the majority of trees in Scotland started life as saplings some from seed, an the rivers (unlike most of Europe) all flow freely down stream towards the little bridges in some of the villages...

[Grace O'Malley]

Some areas of Wales received Irish imigration and invasion as well as Norman, Pembrokeshire for example has had quite a lot of through traffic in the past (From Ireland as well as by the Normans), and it may be the same for some northern areas too.

Thanks Jackson. It is my understanding that the Welsh are as old a population in the British Isles as the Irish. I mean the Irish migrated from somewhere as well so saying the Welsh has Irish and French genetic input is strange to me. I would have thought the Irish would have other input as well. Didn't the Irish start off in Britain first? Most R1b in Ireland is L21 isn't that originally from Northern France? Apparently that is where the highest diversity is?

[Jackson]

Thanks Jackson. It is my understanding that the Welsh are as old a population in the British Isles as the Irish. I mean the Irish migrated from somewhere as well so saying the Welsh has Irish and French genetic input is strange to me. I would have thought the Irish would have other input as well. Didn't the Irish start off in Britain first? Most R1b in Ireland is L21 isn't that originally from Northern France? Apparently that is where the highest diversity is?

Sorry maybe you misunderstood what i meant in an earlier post. I think i was saying that the lowland Britains were genetically probably about 50% Irish-like DNA and 50% northern French-like DNA, so more with more recent continental input. Yeah R1b-L21 looks like it entered from France, in fact P312 in general seems to have a lot to do with southern/eastern France while U106 split off earlier in the journey.

Basically what is meant is that the people of lowland Britain in pre-Roman times were genetically similar to what you would get if you mixed an average modern northern French person with an average modern Irish person.

[Graham]

Some areas of Wales received Irish imigration and invasion as well as Norman, Pembrokeshire for example has had quite a lot of through traffic in the past (From Ireland as well as by the Normans), and it may be the same for some northern areas too.

The Normans themselves, were a small mix of different people. Some of the Y-dna R-L21 in Britain, could actually be from Brittany, with the Normans.

[Jackson]

The Normans themselves, were a small mix of different people. Some of the Y-dna R-L21 in Britain, could actually be from Brittany, with the Normans.

I agree, in fact some of every haplogroup. Apparently Norman lines tend to be R1b-L21 and R1b-U152 anyway, i imagine also with some I1, U106 and R1a thrown in, which is interesting.

[Grace O'Malley]

Thanks for the replies. I understand a bit more now. It is all very interesting.

[Anthropologique]

The Normans themselves, were a small mix of different people. Some of the Y-dna R-L21 in Britain, could actually be from Brittany, with the Normans.

The Normans may be more Gallo-Roman than Norse. Brittany is Atlantic Celtic with both NW and SW Euro influences, autosomally / phenotypically.

Greater frequencies of R-L21 are now being found in a good part of Western France and NW Iberia - Coimbra (PT) to Asturias (ES).

[Albion]

The Normans themselves, were a small mix of different people. Some of the Y-dna R-L21 in Britain, could actually be from Brittany, with the Normans.

I read somewhere that 25% of England's "Normans" were actually Bretons. Not sure how many were Flemish or other French though, although the traditional view of Normans being from actual Normandy is flawed. It's relations to the other North French regions was very important and families crossed into many different regions.
English that state Normans only came from Normandy usually also state that it was almost entirely Norse and other old wives tales like that. For some it is hard to accept that it was essentially domination by a French aristocracy, not some Germanic brotherhood as some try to portray it.
England's leaders were very involved in France and England was essentially an extension of it for a time, a non-French region with French as overlords, kind of like Alsace, Brittany or French Flanders were in the recent past I guess.

[riverman]

Well, the surnames in my family tree from my English part/side whatever are high german origin, I believe, at least mostly. At least that's what the 'origin' is listed as for the Anglo-Saxon names

[Albion]

Well, the surnames in my family tree from my English part/side whatever are high german origin, I believe, at least mostly. At least that's what the 'origin' is listed as for the Anglo-Saxon names

You misunderstood it, the High German is there as a comparison since similar words and surnames can appear in both languages because they're related. English surnames themselves are usually Old English.

[Jackson]

I read somewhere that 25% of England's "Normans" were actually Bretons. Not sure how many were Flemish or other French though, although the traditional view of Normans being from actual Normandy is flawed. It's relations to the other North French regions was very important and families crossed into many different regions.
English that state Normans only came from Normandy usually also state that it was almost entirely Norse and other old wives tales like that. For some it is hard to accept that it was essentially domination by a French aristocracy, not some Germanic brotherhood as some try to portray it.
England's leaders were very involved in France and England was essentially an extension of it for a time, a non-French region with French as overlords, kind of like Alsace, Brittany or French Flanders were in the recent past I guess.

Spot on.

[Graham]

Royal House of Stewart is R-L21, & is from Anglo-Normans of Brittany.

[riverman]

You misunderstood it, the High German is there as a comparison since similar words and surnames can appear in both languages because they're related. English surnames themselves are usually Old English.

Oh I see, well, it could be worded better when they give the origins of names

[Albion]

Oh I see, well, it could be worded better when they give the origins of names

Was it Surname DB by any chance?

[riverman]

Was it Surname DB by any chance?

No, I don't think so. Just some of the general net sites, but, no explanation of how 'high german' isn't the actual origin
the geographic family finder is quite good imo, especially for ambiguous Germanic names

[Albion]

Spot on.

Yes, it annoys me to see people childishly trying to whitewash such a fundamental part of history. It doesn't matter whether they like it or not, there wasn't much Scandinavian about the Normans. Sometimes I guess it is genuine ignorance, but often it is just some English nationalists in denial about the real Normans. Real nationalists like myself acknowledge all the things that shaped their nation whether good or bad, rewriting history won't change it.
Normans seem to be almost universally disliked among most English nationalists, I can't imagine why. ;)

[Graham]

Normans seem to be almost universally disliked among most English nationalists, I can't imagine why. ;)

Ha! noticed that.. Mention that there is a decent amount of Latin in English & you'll get closed down. lol

[rhiannon]

Royal House of Stewart is R-L21, & is from Anglo-Normans of Brittany.Who were the Anglo-Normans of Brittany, exactly? Bretons? Normans of French-Scando origins?

Stewart is a family name, and supposedly said to come from this Royal House. I have no idea if the origins of that name in the family are true, but the name itself is pretty recent on my mom's side.

[Graham]

Who were the Anglo-Normans of Brittany, exactly? Bretons? Normans of French-Scando origins?

Stewart is a family name, and supposedly said to come from this Royal House. I have no idea if the origins of that name in the family are true, but the name itself is pretty recent on my mom's side.

Anglo-Normans, were Normans who lived in England for a few Generations, then moved to Ireland & Scotland... Like Scots-Irish to America. They were big players, in bringing the English language to these Nations.


Stewart origin, original names.. Flaad & Fitzallan. Was made Steward of Scotland & thus changed surname to match Steward. Claimed decent from Brittany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_fitz_Flaad
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_fitz_Alan

Edit: Need to stop making posts late at night, my spelling is terrible.

[Jackson]

Well i'm happy to be distantly related to John le Belward really. Born in 1070 (i think) in Malpas in Cheshire i believe, so second generation Norman :P.

[rhiannon]

Anglo-Normans, were Normans who lived in England for a few Generations, then moved to Ireland & Scotland... Like Scots-Irish to America. They were big players, in bringing the English language to these Nations.


Stewart origin, original names.. Flaad & Fitzallan. Was made Steward of Scotland & thus changed surname to match Steward. Claimed decent from Brittany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_fitz_Flaad
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_fitz_Alan

Edit: Need to stop making posts late at night, my spelling is terrible.

Late at night?:confused3: Isn't like 10:30 am or thereabouts where you are? LOL!

So are these Normans who came from Brittany also of partial Scandinavian heritage? I always thought to be labeled a *Norman* one had to be descended from the Viking raiders who settled in the Northwestern part of France and basically assimilated French culture by mating with Native French over the generations. Is this wrong?

[Graham]

Meant the 3am post, had to edit.


So are these Normans who came from Brittany also of partial Scandinavian heritage? I always thought to be labeled a *Norman* one had to be descended from the Viking raiders who settled in the Northwestern part of France and basically assimilated French culture by mating with Native French over the generations. Is this wrong?
I don't know, shame we don't have any French here.

[Jackson]

Late at night?:confused3: Isn't like 10:30 am or thereabouts where you are? LOL!

So are these Normans who came from Brittany also of partial Scandinavian heritage? I always thought to be labeled a *Norman* one had to be descended from the Viking raiders who settled in the Northwestern part of France and basically assimilated French culture by mating with Native French over the generations. Is this wrong?

Yes because while the core Norman elite were probably a hybrid northern French-Scandinavian aristocracy and there is also evidence for significant Scandinavian settlement in parts of Normandy, it is restricted to a relatively small area. As well as the Normans that came over (your average Norman that came over was probably pre-dominatinantlly 'French' with some amount of Scandinavian ancestry, plus you had Bretons and Flemings also coming during and after the conquest and also some people from other areas of what is now France, i think there was even a few people from Burgundy or something like that.

Apparently Lincolnshire for example saw a lot of Bretons entering the area after the Norman conquest, some of which went home at some point and some presumably stayed.

[Neon Knight]

[Thanks to all recent posters]

What might be confusing here is the term 'French DNA'. The great majority of this DNA would have entered Britain well before the Romans came, like 6000+ years ago, so it is really DNA which is shared between France and Britain and every native modern Brit has at least 25% of it. From what we so far know, there are three main types of DNA in the British Isles: French, Germanic and Gaelic (Irish/Scottish - I don't call it Celtic because sometimes you get Iberians and others claiming relations with the Irish because their ancestors had a Celtic culture :))

English, Welsh, Scots and Northern Irish all have some of the three DNA types but the proportions vary significantly. The central/southern English seem to have about half their DNA in common with the southern Irish and half in common with the Dutch. This suggests that the sothern Irish are either 75% Gaelic + 25% French or + 25% Germanic, we don't yet know for sure. Where did the Gaelic come from? I'm no expert but I'd guess it developed from the post Ice Age French DNA over a few thousand years through a process of mutation and geographical isolation. It could have started between Ireland and Scotland and become dominant in Ireland but it obviously got into England and Wales as well (exactly how, I don't know, but there must have been somme significant migration from Ireland/Scotland over a long period). So the Gaelic DNA is "COPYRIGHT British Isles" (and I wonder if any of it has got into Netherlands/Belgium).

I'll say something about the Germanic and Scandinavian DNA in a future post.

[Daniele90]

I don't see why there should be a "competition" to be more Germanic.. I like to think about Britain, like the English language, as a bit of "melting pot" of European major cultures, and this is perfectly fine.. Germanic from its roots, with French, Latin and Greek influences that enriched the language and also important Celtic influence from the East and North; it would be another Britain if it was just "Germanic".. Even the people are more relaxed and more joie-de-vivre compared to other Germanic populations, and I think that is a major plus..

[Albion]

I don't see why there should be a "competition" to be more Germanic..

There isn't.


I like to think about Britain, like the English language, as a bit of "melting pot" of European major cultures,

It's not a melting pot, it is more homogeneous than nations on the continent that are much more diverse. The culture of England is primarily Germanic with Latin influences whereas the people are primarily Celtic and Germanic.
Celtic nations are just Celtic with English influence.


it would be another Britain if it was just "Germanic".. Even the people are more relaxed and more joie-de-vivre compared to other Germanic populations, and I think that is a major plus..

Other Germanics have said something like this. It's not necesarilly Latin influence but could be partly due to it I guess.

[Jackson]

There isn't.



It's not a melting pot, it is more homogeneous than nations on the continent that are much more diverse. The culture of England is primarily Germanic with Latin influences whereas the people are primarily Celtic and Germanic.
Celtic nations are just Celtic with English influence.



Other Germanics have said something like this. It's not necesarilly Latin influence but could be partly due to it I guess.

Depends where you go as well, people in the far south and east tend to be less open like that, although that is also the conservative homelands anyway, so it may well have nothing to do with it. I also found it interesting that during the English Civil War the Parliamentarian support was strongest in the south and east, and Royalist support strongest in the west and north.

[Albion]

Depends where you go as well, people in the far south and east tend to be less open like that, although that is also the conservative homelands anyway, so it may well have nothing to do with it. I also found it interesting that during the English Civil War the Parliamentarian support was strongest in the south and east, and Royalist support strongest in the west and north.

Easterners are killjoys?

[Jackson]

Easterners are killjoys?

Well thats taking it to the extreme. The east and south east is the conservative heartland and prone to things like Puritanism (+Protestantism presumably), Parliamentarianism. Although another interesting thing i saw on a much more recent survey was that people from eastern England were the least likely to cheat, and people from Wales the most. That again probably goes back to the conservatism and religious factors.

[Pretan]

Yes, it annoys me to see people childishly trying to whitewash such a fundamental part of history. It doesn't matter whether they like it or not, there wasn't much Scandinavian about the Normans. Sometimes I guess it is genuine ignorance, but often it is just some English nationalists in denial about the real Normans. Real nationalists like myself acknowledge all the things that shaped their nation whether good or bad, rewriting history won't change it.
Normans seem to be almost universally disliked among most English nationalists, I can't imagine why. ;)

Well it might be because William the Bastard went on a zealous bloodthirsty rampage committing genocide against the folk of Northern England; leaving behind a path of scortched earth and famine in his wake.
In that sense, he can be said as being to North England, what Cromwell is to Ireland.

[Jackson]

Well it might be because William the Bastard went on a zealous bloodthirsty rampage committing genocide against the folk of Northern England; leaving behind a path of scortched earth and famine in his wake.
In that sense, he can be said as being to North England, what Cromwell is to Ireland.

Don't forget what he did to the south as well.

[Graham]

William the Bastard is one, of only a few, that every nation of the British Isles could agree, is a fanny.

Translates to William the Bastard is a Vagina(for any Americans).

[Jackson]

William the Bastard is one, of only a few, that every nation of the British Isles could agree, is a fanny.

Haha. Shall we nominate him Fanny the Bastard, Fanny the Conqueror, William the Fanny, William the Bastard Fanny, William the Fanny Conqueror?

[Neon Knight]

^ Unfair on bastards and fannies. By the way, have you noticed how the Royal Family hardly ever give their children English names? It's nearly always Norman/French ones. The only real exception is Edward and is that any coincidence since Edward the Confessor was a Norman suck-up?

“I have persecuted the natives of England beyond all reason. Whether gentle or simple I have cruelly oppressed them; many I unjustly disinherited; innumerable multitudes perished through me by famine or the sword……I fell on the English of the northern shires like a ravening lion. I commanded their houses and corn, with all their implements and chattels, to be burnt without distinction, and great herds of cattle and beasts of burden to be butchered whenever they are found. In this way I took revenge on multitudes of both sexes by subjecting them to the calamity of a cruel famine, and so became a barbarous murderer of many thousands, both young and old, of that fine race of people. Having gained the throne of that kingdom by so many crimes I dare not leave it to anyone but God….."

William’s death bed confession according to Ordericus Vitalis c AD 1130.

[Jackson]

^ Unfair on bastards and fannies. By the way, have you noticed how the Royal Family hardly ever give their children English names? It's nearly always Norman/French ones. The only real exception is Edward and is that any coincidence since Edward the Confessor was a Norman suck-up?

“I have persecuted the natives of England beyond all reason. Whether gentle or simple I have cruelly oppressed them; many I unjustly disinherited; innumerable multitudes perished through me by famine or the sword……I fell on the English of the northern shires like a ravening lion. I commanded their houses and corn, with all their implements and chattels, to be burnt without distinction, and great herds of cattle and beasts of burden to be butchered whenever they are found. In this way I took revenge on multitudes of both sexes by subjecting them to the calamity of a cruel famine, and so became a barbarous murderer of many thousands, both young and old, of that fine race of people. Having gained the throne of that kingdom by so many crimes I dare not leave it to anyone but God….."

William’s death bed confession according to Ordericus Vitalis c AD 1130.

Indeed, i wouldn't take low grade insults about him seriously. I don't like him for what he did to my people but he's earned an important place in our history. Bastard is perfectly fair though, as he was named as such.

Yeah i know what you mean about the names, but that is also true of much of the population. Unfortunately i can't recall knowing anyone called Edgar,Alfric or Oswald for example but i know a few called things like Ernest, Edward, Anna, Cedric. Although Norman and Christian names retain much of their dominance as the fashionable names, apart from a brief revival of older names just over a century ago for the most part.

[Caismeachd]

I was surprised but I'm closer related to people from France to Germany than I am to Irish people despite being Scottish. I'm first gen living in US originally from UK so I don't have much other mixture.

[Albion]

William the Bastard is one, of only a few, that every nation of the British Isles could agree, is a fanny.

Translates to William the Bastard is a Vagina(for any Americans).

Haha, Americans think it means arse (ass). :D

[Neon Knight]

What might be confusing here is the term 'French DNA'. The great majority of this DNA would have entered Britain well before the Romans came, like 6000+ years ago, so it is really DNA which is shared between France and Britain and every native modern Brit has at least 25% of it. From what we so far know, there are three main types of DNA in the British Isles: French, Germanic and Gaelic (Irish/Scottish - I don't call it Celtic because sometimes you get Iberians and others claiming relations with the Irish because their ancestors had a Celtic culture :))

English, Welsh, Scots and Northern Irish all have some of the three DNA types but the proportions vary significantly. The central/southern English seem to have about half their DNA in common with the southern Irish and half in common with the Dutch. This suggests that the sothern Irish are either 75% Gaelic + 25% French or + 25% Germanic, we don't yet know for sure. Where did the Gaelic come from? I'm no expert but I'd guess it developed from the post Ice Age French DNA over a few thousand years through a process of mutation and geographical isolation. It could have started between Ireland and Scotland and become dominant in Ireland but it obviously got into England and Wales as well (exactly how, I don't know, but there must have been somme significant migration from Ireland/Scotland over a long period). So the Gaelic DNA is "COPYRIGHT British Isles" (and I wonder if any of it has got into Netherlands/Belgium).

I'll say something about the Germanic and Scandinavian DNA in a future post.
CONTINUING . . .

If you've been following the People of the British Isles project you will know that natives of central and southern England have about 50% DNA of a type found in Denmark-Netherlands-W.Germany-Belgium which falls to about 35% in Northern England (above Lancashire & Yorkshire). The obvious explanation is that this Germanic DNA came from the AngloSaxon invasions from about 400 AD and was added to later by Danish Vikings. However, since the 'French' DNA seems to have originated in and been preserved from very ancient times then I think it quite possible that a large portion of the Germanic DNA was already part of the Britons before the Romans arrived, probably dating from the Dogger Islands connection:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-H7B177NvqwA/UJisIBk04dI/AAAAAAAAGUQ/bNQbhphpWyc/s1600/7.%2BDoggerland.png

50% is far too large to be called admixture and to me it really does point to a source population. It looks like the post Ice Age wanderers would have populated the Netherlands area from eastern Britain as well as via north-eastern France, so this Germanic/Doggerland DNA is also a development of the French DNA (in a different direction to the Gaelic) and would always have been native to Britain. Until further evidence is produced, the safest bet for me is that half of the Germanic DNA is actually native and the other half came from the AngloSaxons and Danes.

The PotBI exhibition photo below also shows Scandinavian DNA of 4 to 5% throughout Britan which I suppose we must assume came from the Norse Vikings, but since the colour code seems to match with Sweden I also wonder if that too had an ancient origin. By the way you can see that Swedes are even more of a DNA cocktail than the British - so much for the pure Nordic!
http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu295/Alchemyst/SSExhibitionPOTBI_zpsfa78fa47.jpg?t=1370305659

Last month the PotBI team were sampling in the Isle of Man so that should give us a big clue to the DNA of Ireland.

I should also mention another theory that's come up lately:
http://www.livescience.com/28954-ancient-europeans-mysteriously-vanished.html
I'm really not sure how well that can explain the variety of DNA in Britain. Did Iberians in about 2,500 BC travel up into the British Isles and the rest of northern Europe? Even into Scandinavia? If so then it must have only taken about 2,200 years for them to diversify into Gauls, Irish, Britons, AngloSaxons, etc. Maybe they were all a lot more similar to each other than us modern Europeans are but it doesn't sound right to me.

[Albion]

R1b wasn't present in Western Europe before the Neolithic.

[Jackson]

I ordered this book around a month ago and hopefully it should arrive within another month or two, and i'll include some things from it on this thread (as it's become a kind of general thread) or i could make a new one.

http://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Anglo_saxon_England_and_Icelandic_Mediev.html?id=p aq91FA5fu8C&redir_esc=y

[Heart of Oak]

I say give all the Irish Welsh Scotish their right to govern their own countrys, we will see how long it is before they beg for the English to bail them out of the mess they will make, sometimes you must allow children to make mistakes so they can understand that they do not know best...

[Jackson]

Found someone had done this dendrogram for Jtest. The English average clusters with Dutch and West + Central Germans, while the Nordic and Celtic peoples are on either side.

http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/uu7/Brodir93/jtestgedmatchclusterana.png

[Jackson]

From the POBI project, R1b-L21. Averages out at about 50% in most of Wales. Given that there has been some English admixture in Wales as well i think 50% of R1b-L21 is probably close to accurate for what much of lowland Britain was, or at least 40-50%. It fits with what POBI were saying about % of Celtic/Germanic in these areas. As the English side of the border here is on the western periphery of that red group (where there is also other regional genetic groups between the English and the Welsh) they look to be about 50% Germanic 50% Celtic going by L21. L21 drops down to about 10-15% in the east of the country though, making them about 75% Germanic 25% Celtic, both of which fit with their earlier results too, where they said for example that Oxford was about 50/50, and Kent about 70/30.

The main thing though is that it highlights how dramatic borders can be, more so than you would think.

Found the image on another forum:

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/892/lzux.jpg

[Graham]

Do we have a POBI thread? we should have one anyway.

That map, R1b-L21 halfs once it crosses the border into England. I wonder at what stage East towards the border does it start lowering? Is it so obvious?

Interesting.. English R1b-L21 can't be much different to Basque levels.

[Albion]

From the POBI project, R1b-L21. Averages out at about 50% in most of Wales. Given that there has been some English admixture in Wales as well i think 50% of R1b-L21 is probably close to accurate for what much of lowland Britain was, or at least 40-50%. It fits with what POBI were saying about % of Celtic/Germanic in these areas. As the English side of the border here is on the western periphery of that red group (where there is also other regional genetic groups between the English and the Welsh) they look to be about 50% Germanic 50% Celtic going by L21. L21 drops down to about 10-15% in the east of the country though, making them about 75% Germanic 25% Celtic, both of which fit with their earlier results too, where they said for example that Oxford was about 50/50, and Kent about 70/30.

The main thing though is that it highlights how dramatic borders can be, more so than you would think.

Found the image on another forum:

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/892/lzux.jpg

I'm surprised by that really, Cheshire and Shropshire are both right on the border and I expected a gradual change from the Midlands into Wales rather than an abruptly Germanic Marches vs a very Celtic Wales.
Shropshire being more Celtic is hardly surprising though, Cheshire was conquered much earlier whereas Shropshire was held by the Welsh for a bit longer. But the border is a bit messy in parts of Shropshire unlike in Cheshire, Shropshire has odd towns like Oswestry which were formerly ethnically mixed whereas Cheshire has basically just been English - it's ethnically confused parts (Flintshire and Wrexham) are now in Wales.


Do we have a POBI thread? we should have one anyway.

That map, R1b-L21 halfs once it crosses the border into England. I wonder at what stage East towards the border does it start lowering? Is it so obvious?

Interesting.. English R1b-L21 can't be much different to Basque levels.

Probably not much further east than Chester.

[Jackson]

Do we have a POBI thread? we should have one anyway.

That map, R1b-L21 halfs once it crosses the border into England. I wonder at what stage East towards the border does it start lowering? Is it so obvious?

Interesting.. English R1b-L21 can't be much different to Basque levels.

This is true, i imagine right on the borders it's still pretty high, but once more inside the county i guess it gets to these levels. It's interesting that there was a lot of Welsh people recorded as living along the borders (in England) by the 11th/12th century, so there has been movement across the borders, but i guess either English movement into Wales effectively cancelled out the effect, or the difference still happens to be quite strong.

[Jackson]

This is true, i imagine right on the borders it's still pretty high, but once more inside the county i guess it gets to these levels. It's interesting that there was a lot of Welsh people recorded as living along the borders (in England) by the 11th/12th century, so there has been movement across the borders, but i guess either English movement into Wales effectively cancelled out the effect, or the difference still happens to be quite strong.

Yeah i think it drops down to like 12-15% in East/Southeast England and only a few percent more in Central England. I think it's just under 10% in Denmark and Norway and just under 5% in the Netherlands/Frisia and around 10% or something (maybe a little more actually) in the far north of France, excluding Brittany. So almost at baseline levels for NW Europe, which is quite surprising. Of course P312* and U152 are respectively higher there as well though.