Britain Is More Germanic than It Thinks

[curiousman]

The Anglo-Saxon Invasion
Britain Is More Germanic than It Thinks

By Matthias Schulz
How Germanic is Great Britain really? Archeologists and geneticists have unveiled surprising revelations about the historical origins of people in the modern United Kingdom -- many of whom have ancestors who once crossed the North Sea.
The fear of a violent conquest of their country is deeply engrained in the English psyche. One of the likely reasons for this fear is that their ancestors committed this misdeed themselves.

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06/16/2011

The Anglo-Saxon Invasion
Britain Is More Germanic than It Thinks

By Matthias Schulz
Photo Gallery: Scientists Reveal Britain's German Heritage
Photos
The British Museum

How Germanic is Great Britain really? Archeologists and geneticists have unveiled surprising revelations about the historical origins of people in the modern United Kingdom -- many of whom have ancestors who once crossed the North Sea.
Info

The fear of a violent conquest of their country is deeply engrained in the English psyche. One of the likely reasons for this fear is that their ancestors committed this misdeed themselves.

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According to the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, two Germanic tribesmen, Hengist and Horsa, came ashore on the coast of Kent in southeast England in the year 449. They had sailed 600 kilometers (372 miles) down the coast from their native North Frisia, and had then made the crossing to a green and pleasant Britain.

The country they encountered was a cultivated place. Emperor Claudius had declared the island a Roman province in 43 A.D., and had introduced theaters and paved streets. There were 30,000 people living in Londinium in late antiquity.

All of this was destroyed, however, when the adventurers -- who became more and more numerous as families were reunited -- arrived from across the sea.

But how many people came to Britain across the North Sea in total? A thousand? Ten thousand? Or was it an even higher number?

Small Caste of Noble Warriors

Until now, the so-called Minimalists have set the tone in British archeology. They believe in what they call an "elite transfer", in which a small caste of Germanic noble warriors, perhaps a few thousand, placed themselves at the top of society in a coup of sorts, and eventually even displaced the Celtic language with their own. Many contemporary Britons, not overly keen on having such a close kinship with the Continent, like this scenario.

Thomas Sheppard, a museum curator, discovered this sentiment almost a century ago. In 1919, officers asked for his assistance after they accidentally discovered the roughly 1,500-year-old grave of an Anglo-Saxon woman while digging trenches in eastern England.

Sheppard concluded that the woman's bleached bones came from "conquerors from Germany" and announced: "These are our ancestors!" But the soldiers were thunderstruck. At first they cursed and refused to believe that they were related to the "Huns." But then the mood darkened. The trip back to the barracks "was like a funeral procession," Sheppard wrote.

Flood of People Crossed the North Sea

But there is no use in denying it. It is now clear that the nation which most dislikes the Germans were once Krauts themselves. A number of studies reinforce the intimacy of the German-English relationship.

Biologists at University College in London studied a segment of the Y chromosome that appears in almost all Danish and northern German men -- and is also surprisingly common in Great Britain. This suggests that a veritable flood of people must have once crossed the North Sea.

New isotope studies conducted in Anglo-Saxon cemeteries produced similar results. When chemists analyzed the tooth enamel and bones of skeletons, they found that about 20 percent of the dead were newcomers who had originated on mainland Europe.

Archeologist Heinrich Härke of the University of Reading has now come up with a quantitative estimate of the migratory movement. He suspects that "up to 200,000 emigrants" crossed the North Sea.

The massive movement of people was apparently triggered in 407 A.D., the year in which the ailing Roman Empire withdrew much of its army from Britain. Soon afterwards, it stopped paying its soldiers altogether. As a result, the last legionaries took off.

This left the island unprotected, an opportunity that the starving people on the continent couldn't pass up. Angles, Saxons and Jutes left their mound dwellings and broad bean fields in the wetlands of northern Europe in droves.

Entire family clans set out to sea, usually in the spring and summer when the water was calm. Their ships were bulging with household goods, cows and horses. According to an old chronicle, the land of the Angles was soon "abandoned."

The new arrivals established their first cemetery around 410 in Dorchester-on-Thames, near Oxford. It was filled with the same kinds of urns, brooches and other ornaments found along the Elbe River in Germany.

Kingdoms Run by Robust Chieftans

Archeologists have now excavated such burial grounds in large numbers. The Germanic farmers of Spong Hill, in eastern England, remained in contact with their old homeland for two to three generations. Härke speculates that a steady stream of adventurers left the mainland between 450 and 550. Nevertheless, there are still inconsistencies. The estimated 200,000 intruders faced an overwhelming number of Britons, about a million, and yet the invaders triumphed. The kingdoms that soon developed, like East Anglia, Wessex (West Saxony) and Essex (East Saxony) were run by robust chieftains like Sigeric and Cynewulf.

The Celts were no match for these roughnecks. The Romans had taught them how to play the lyre and drink copious amounts of wine, but the populace in the regions controlled by the Pax Romana was barred from carrying weapons. As a result, the local peoples, no longer accustomed to the sword, lost one battle after the next and were forced to the edges of the island.

The Old English heroic epic "Beowulf" suggests how coarse and combative life was among the pagan conquerors in their reed-covered huts. They had soon occupied eastern and central England.

The famous legend of King Arthur also originated in that era -- as a form of counter-propaganda. Historians characterize the work as a "defensive myth" created by the original Christian inhabitants (with the Holy Grail possibly symbolizing the communion cup). Perhaps the King Arthur legend is based on a mythical Celtic king who won a victory at Mount Badon around 500 A.D.

'Social Structures Similar to Apartheid'

In truth, however, the army of the Britons was usually in retreat. Many fell into captivity. According to Härke, the captured Britons lived a miserable existence as "servants and maids" in the villages of the Anglo-Saxons.

There were two types of grave in the cemeteries of the time: those containing swords and other weapons, and those with none. The local inhabitants, deprived of their rights, were apparently buried in the latter type of grave.

The London geneticist Mark Thomas is convinced that the conquerors from the continent maintained "social structures similar to apartheid," a view supported by the laws of King Ine of Wessex (around 695). They specify six social levels for the Britons, five of which refer to slaves.

As a result of the brutal subjugation, the reproduction rate of the losing Britons was apparently curbed, while the winners had many children. The consequences are still evident today in the British gene pool. "People from rural England are more closely related to the northern Germans than to their countrymen from Wales or Scotland," Härke explains.

According to Härke, every other man on the island carries the "Friesian gene."

Translated from the German by Christopher Sultan

http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-226190-galleryV9-fwgo.jpg

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,768706,00.html

[Beorn]

Culture is decided by those experiencing it.

How long would an Italian calling Englishmen, Cornishmen, Scottishmen and Welshmen 'Germanic' survive is the ultimate test.

[Loki]

Culture is decided by those experiencing it.

How long would an Italian calling Englishmen, Cornishmen, Scottishmen and Welshmen 'Germanic' survive is the ultimate test.

This article is more about genetic origin than culture though. Has nothing to do with Krauts, don't worry. :)

And yes - good article. Brits don't like to readily admit it, but they're very Germanic.

[Äike]

This article is more about genetic origin than culture though. Has nothing to do with Krauts, don't worry. :)

And yes - good article. Brits don't like to readily admit it, but they're very Germanic.

Genetically(14% I1 in England(I won't mention Wales and Scotland who have lower numbers) and 15% in Estonia and linguistically(in both languages, 30% of the vocabulary is of Germanic origin), Brits are as Germanic as the non-Germanic/non-Indo-European, Finnic Estonians. This is caused by tight contacts between the Estonians and the proto-Germanics/Scandinavians since 2000 BC. While we can talk about the British isles and the Germanics, about 2500 years later.

I'm not going to say that the English aren't Germanic, but I am going to say that they are the least Germanic group among the Germanic populations.

[Loki]

I'm not going to say that the English aren't Germanic, but I am going to say that they are the least Germanic group among the Germanic populations.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. You cannot rely entirely on Y-DNA markers. (Some of) the English could be genetically more Germanic than some modern Germans - who have a substantial Celtic substratum in the South. But then again, other southern German-speaking areas like Switzerland and parts of Austria seem very Germanic too. It's not all the same per ethnicity. Modern ethnic boundaries based on languages spoken is rather artificial.

The English are a lot more Germanic than Estonians, who are basically Finnic/Eastern European.

[Äike]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. You cannot rely entirely on Y-DNA markers. (Some of) the English could be genetically more Germanic than some modern Germans - who have a substantial Celtic substratum in the South. But then again, other southern German-speaking areas like Switzerland and parts of Austria seem very Germanic too. It's not all the same per ethnicity. Modern ethnic boundaries based on languages spoken is rather artificial.

Relying on Y-DNA markers is done by people who just discovered genetics. Relying solely on genetics is also rather risky at this point. I was just pointing out that the Estonian people have Germanic vocabulary that's older than Germanic presence in modern-day Germany.


The English are a lot more Germanic than Estonians

They are Indo-European and belong into the linguistic Germanic group, no one has said otherwise.


who are basically Finnic/Eastern European.

I'll inform all the Estonian and Finnish members of The Apricity that they're Eastern-Europeans, I think that none of us has ever realized that we belong into that group.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is Eldritch the only Eastern-European moderator, representing the Ukrainians, Russians, Poles and various other Eastern-Europeans? For only one Eastern-European moderator, that must be a big burden. We all know that Finland and Romania are brother-nations and there's really no difference between these two people, maybe a new Romanian moderator would help Eldritch bear the burden of being the only Eastern-European moderator? :ohwell:

[Loki]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is Eldritch the only Eastern-European moderator, representing the Ukrainians, Russians, Poles and various other Eastern-Europeans? For only one Eastern-European moderator, that must be a big burden. We all know that Finland and Romania are brother-nations and there's really no difference between these two people, maybe a new Romanian moderator would help Eldritch bear the burden of being the only Eastern-European moderator? :ohwell:

That implies that a certain moderator would display a bias towards his/her ethnic group. At Apricity we don't select moderators who display such a lack of objectivity. Nonetheless, nobody's perfect. We don't have many moderators anyway, and things seem to work fine that way. Too many mods = more problems.

[Äike]

That implies that a certain moderator would display a bias towards his/her ethnic group. At Apricity we don't select moderators who display such a lack of objectivity. Nonetheless, nobody's perfect. We don't have many moderators anyway, and things seem to work fine that way. Too many mods = more problems.

...Right, I was just implying that a German member can speak German to a German moderator and thus communication is easier.

Just like a Russian could communicate with a Belorussian and an Ukrainian in Russian.

[gandalf]

From my experience of the Midlands
I certainly would agree that there is strong germanic genes ,
but all together English population could be called the less
germanic of all germanic countries witch are :
Netherland , Germany , Austria , Danemark , Norway , Sweden .

English population is a blend were I would say Keltics are dominant ,
then come Germans .

[Peyrol]

Why english is the most latinized germanic language?

[Tel Errant]

Britain is the same colour than Île-de-France, that map rather shows the singularity of Ireland in an European context.

[Troll's Puzzle]

Why english is the most latinized germanic language?

because of the norman conquest.

[Treffie]

"People from rural England are more closely related to the northern Germans than to their countrymen from Wales or Scotland," Härke explains.

Interesting article. I suspect that a lot of Scots and Welsh are closer to the Germans than they had ever envisaged (just like me).

[Loki]

because of the norman conquest.

Yep, primarily. But what about the earlier pre-Saxon Roman conquest. Did that leave any traces in the language? I'm asking merely from a speculating point of view.

[Bridie]

And yes - good article.
One article out of hundreds... all with conflicting and contradicting analyses/conclusions.




Brits don't like to readily admit it, but they're very Germanic.Yeah, Brits are Germans with a sense of humour. :rolleyes:

[Bridie]

Yep, primarily. But what about the earlier pre-Saxon Roman conquest. Did that leave any traces in the language? I'm asking merely from a speculating point of view.There are Brythonic influences... I'll find the sources that explain it all later. I have to go to bed now. :p

[Bridie]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. You cannot rely entirely on Y-DNA markers. (Some of) the English could be genetically more Germanic than some modern Germans - who have a substantial Celtic substratum in the South. In other words, you have no fucking clue. All you have is a Germanicist agenda.

[Loki]

In other words, you have no fucking clue. All you have is a Germanicist agenda.

I don't have any agenda, I'm just interested in reality, that is all. :) If English are strongly Germanic, then they are whether you or I like it or not.

[Troll's Puzzle]

In other words, you have no fucking clue. All you have is a Germanicist agenda.

and all you have an anti-germanicist's due to a wog's whispers :(

[Bridie]

I don't have any agenda, I'm just interested in reality, that is all. :) If English are strongly Germanic, then they are whether you or I like it or not.Ok, let's pretend for a minute that the English are Germanic. So what?

The English will still not be part of some wider Germanic brotherhood... they will still not identify with the Germans.... they will still not sympathise with the Germans... they will still not support any German attempts at expansionism/invasion in Europe... and many of them will go on disliking the Germans as much as ever.

So who cares if the English are Germanic or Celtic or Latin or bloody-well Martian??? No one with half a brain, because in the real world it means FUCK ALL.

What is the point in studying something that has no relevance to anything, not even entertainment value? I'll tell you what, its not done. And what does that tell you? Someone, somewhere is hoping that connecting the English with the Germans/Germanics will achieve something.



and all you have an anti-germanicist's due to a wog's whispers I have a brain of my own, thanks. ;)

Yes, I am anti-Germanicist (in regards to my people being a part of it or not). My Great-Grandpas who fought in two world wars against the Germans would be most proud. :thumb001:

[Peasant]

Why english is the most latinized germanic language?

Bad writers, and especially scientific, political, and sociological writers, are nearly always haunted by the notion that Latin or Greek words are grander than Saxon ones, and unnecessary words like expedite, ameliorate, predict, extraneous, deracinated, clandestine, subaqueous, and hundreds of others constantly gain ground from their Anglo-Saxon numbers.

— George Orwell, Politics and the English Language

[Loki]

Ok, let's pretend for a minute that the English are Germanic. So what?

The English will still not be part of some wider Germanic brotherhood... they will still not identify with the Germans.... they will still not sympathise with the Germans... they will still not support any German attempts at expansionism/invasion in Europe... and many of them will go on disliking the Germans as much as ever.

So who cares if the English are Germanic or Celtic or Latin or bloody-well Martian??? No one with half a brain, because in the real world it means FUCK ALL.


It doesn't matter at all, it's just for historical interest. And by the way, being Germanic does not necessarily mean you have to have solidarity with modern Germans. Germans themselves are not fully Germanic from a genetic perspective anyway. They also contain a deep Celtic substratum, and as recent genetic results show, considerably more Eastern European influence than, for example, the British.

As I've said, certain parts of England are probably more Germanic genetically than most areas in Germany - because aside from the original Anglo-Saxon influence, Britain also had huge Germanic input via Scandinavia afterwards (Danes, Norwegians and Normans).

It is - for me at least - interesting to know about one's genetic and ethnic origins.

[Bridie]

And by the way, being Germanic does not necessarily mean you have to have solidarity with modern Germans.
Sharing a binding history with Germany has modern implications.



Germans themselves are not fully Germanic from a genetic perspective anyway.Since you mention "a genetic perspective" I will assume that you are not speaking of linguistics, but rather of this definition of the term "Germanic"...


Ger·man·ic (jr-mnk)
adj.
1.
a. Of, relating to, or characteristic of Germany or its people, language, or culture.
In which case, to state that the English are more sometimes more German than the Germans themselves is ludicrous.



It is - for me at least - interesting to know about one's genetic and ethnic origins.It is interesting, but you won't find the answers in articles like the one originally posted. You know that, you've already had some genetic testing done.

As for ethnic origins in regards to the English; the ethnogenesis of the English people was something quite unique. To associate it in any way with Germany is quite mad.

[Loki]

Since you mention "a genetic perspective" I will assume that you are not speaking of linguists, but rather of this definition of the term "Germanic"...

In which case, to state that the English are more sometimes more German than the Germans themselves is ludicrous.


No, there is a difference between historical Germanic and modern German. Of course the linguistic links are still there, and that should be no surprise.

To bluntly disassociate with Germans just because of ethnic pride or historical enmity is something that you have to work through yourself, it is not what I am referring to here.

[Bridie]

No, there is a difference between historical Germanic and modern German. Of course the linguistic links are still there, and that should be no surprise.
Clearly you need to find a better term than "Germanic" to convey what it is that you're talking about then. You've already seen what the accepted definition is.



To bluntly disassociate with Germans just because of ethnic pride or historical enmity is something that you have to work through yourself, it is not what I am referring to here.I don't need to work on something that isn't there. Ie, I already have no association with Germans.

[El Palleter]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. You cannot rely entirely on Y-DNA markers.You cannot rely on Y-DNA data from one or two individuals to infer the composition of a country. But if the data is extracted from larger samples the probability increases of inferences being closer to correct.


(Some of) the English could be genetically more Germanic than some modern GermansModern Germanic is merely a cultural commonality. Ancient Germanic was probably too, at least to some extent.


who have a substantial Celtic substratum in the South.Rhaetians weren't a Celtic people. Unless you were referring to the Swiss, where the Helvetii were Celtic. But then, don't Swiss appear visibly differentiated from the Germans in most studies?


But then again, other southern German-speaking areas like Switzerland and parts of Austria seem very Germanic too.Which specific parts of Austria?

Tyrol surely not. They seem to derive largely from a Rhaetian or similar population. Other regions of Austria have a visibly strong Slavic component. I'm not referring to the Slovenian and Croatian minorities there (alone), but more ancient.


It's not all the same per ethnicity. Modern ethnic boundaries based on languages spoken is rather artificial.I wouldn't generalise too much, but you are still right here.


The English are a lot more Germanic than Estonians, who are basically Finnic/Eastern European.But so you could say that Estonians are a lot more Slavic than the English. I don't think that that's saying that the English are basically Germans (or thereabouts) or that the Estonians are Russians (or thereabouts).

[Loki]

Clearly you need to find a better term than "Germanic" to convey what it is that you're talking about then. You've already seen what the accepted definition is.


Wikipedia is a good start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_peoples

[El Palleter]

No, there is a difference between historical Germanic and modern German. Of course the linguistic links are still there, and that should be no surprise.A superstratum?


To bluntly disassociate with Germans just because of ethnic pride or historical enmity is something that you have to work through yourself, it is not what I am referring to here.I can think of a few more off the top of my head; differences in individual and collective character and different social habits to name a couple.

These modern meta-tribal constructs are a hindrance that when used to serve political or similar agendas transgress the identities of peoples and deny them of their true selfs.

Even as ancient meta-tribal forms of identification they needed to be together with other form of self-identification to become an element of kinship.

[Loki]

I can think of a few more off the top of my head; individual and collective character differences and different social habits to name a couple.

These modern meta-tribal constructs are a hindrance that when used to serve political or similar agendas transgress the identities of peoples and deny them of their true selfs.

Even as ancient meta-tribal forms of identification they needed to be together with other form of self-identification to become an element of kinship.

My point is that understanding our past is helpful in understanding who we are. We are modern individuals and cultures, but we are the result of thousands of generations of peoples who fought each other and merged.

I recently made a thread about the cultural differences between English and Germans (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28246).

[Bridie]

Wikipedia is a good start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_peoples
Be serious now. ;)



My point is that understanding our past is helpful in understanding who we are.Anyone reading your previous posts in this thread could be forgiven for mistaking your point to be that the English share a close, but often forgotten or denied, kinship with the Germans by way of some ancient Germanic tribal genetic input into the populations of Great Britain. In fact, sometimes the English are more Germanic than the Germans themselves. (I'm sure the Germans will love you for the latter. :p)

But I don't see how such sentiments of Germanicness (is that even a word? :D) are useful in understanding who the English people are.


In any case, this is all rather irrelevant since...


One article out of hundreds... all with conflicting and contradicting analyses/conclusions.
... nothing is conclusive.

[Troll's Puzzle]

I have a brain of my own, thanks. ;)

Yes, I am anti-Germanicist (in regards to my people being a part of it or not). My Great-Grandpas who fought in two world wars against the Germans would be most proud. :thumb001:

I'm not sure what my 'great grandpas' would think today (and in a lot of ways, it's just not relevant), just like i'm not sure what their great grandpas would think (who might have fought alongside 'germans' vs the frogs) but personally I don't base my views on who my ancestors at one time or another were told to fight against by their rulers. (otherwise i'd 'hate' the french, danes, germans, russians, americans, everyone, just because 'my ancestors' had been told to fight them at some point...)

And I certainly hope other people don't hate me because of who some people of my ethny were told to kill in the distant past. I've encountered some friendly internet persona such as 'Loki' and 'Roy Batty' who's ancestors were treated in a downright awful way by british, but don't bear any hard feelings and are nice people & even like us.

On the other hand, there are some who hate Brits (and especially English, for some reason) for past events. Probably the worst case I can remember is this spanish guy who was practically rabid about us, it was quite disturbing really. He also had some strange internet views you don't encounter in the real world, like 'germanics' being a different race to 'europeans' and being genetically inclined to mass murder or something like that, yet he repeatedly dated colonial germanics. I can't remember his name, but clearly there was something wrong with that guy.

[Bridie]

I'm not sure what my 'great grandpas' would think today (and in a lot of ways, it's just not relevant), just like i'm not sure what their great grandpas would think (who might have fought alongside 'germans' vs the frogs) but personally I don't base my views on who my ancestors at one time or another were told to fight against by their rulers. (otherwise i'd 'hate' the french, danes, germans, russians, americans, everyone, just because 'my ancestors' had been told to fight them at some point...)

And I certainly hope other people don't hate me because of who some people of my ethny were told to kill in the distant past. I've encountered some friendly internet persona such as 'Loki' and 'Roy Batty' who's ancestors were treated in a downright awful way by british, but don't bear any hard feelings and are nice people & even like us.I haven't been speaking of hate though, just identification.




On the other hand, there are some who hate Brits (and especially English, for some reason) for past events. Probably the worst case I can remember is this spanish guy who was practically rabid about us, it was quite disturbing really. He also had some strange internet views you don't encounter in the real world, like 'germanics' being a different race to 'europeans' and being genetically inclined to mass murder or something like that, yet he repeatedly dated colonial germanics. I can't remember his name, but clearly there was something wrong with that guy.
Cheeky cheeky.... :icon_wink:


In any case, are you a Germanicist, Troll's Puzzle?

[Logan]

Genetically(14% I1 in England(I won't mention Wales and Scotland who have lower numbers) and 15% in Estonia and linguistically(in both languages, 30% of the vocabulary is of Germanic origin), Brits are as Germanic as the non-Germanic/non-Indo-European, Finnic Estonians. This is caused by tight contacts between the Estonians and the proto-Germanics/Scandinavians since 2000 BC. While we can talk about the British isles and the Germanics, about 2500 years later.

I'm not going to say that the English aren't Germanic, but I am going to say that they are the least Germanic group among the Germanic populations.


Then Germany would be 16% as it is that percent I1, and Sweden and Denmark much less than 50%.

Have a look at this site and as well the second. Those Haplogroups are quite old.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/germani.shtml

[_______]

i dentify as Germanic...

[GeistFaust]

Most of England has negligible or non existent Celtic origins except in Cornwall. The rest of the English population's background is of French Norman/Anglo Saxon heritage. I would identify as an Englishman as being largely of Germanic descent.

[Bridie]

i dentify as Germanic...You would do... you're part German. :p

[Stars Down To Earth]

The English are mostly Germanic (well, Anglo-Saxon), and the Welsh are Celts. That's pretty clear cut.

Scotland is a pretty strange case. Highland Scots have a tiny bit of Celtic blood, but Lowland Scots (like myself) are 100% Germanic. More than the English. But most of us Scots have adopted this Celtic-inspired romanticized self-image, just to stick it to the English wankers. :p

[Stars Down To Earth]

Fuck, double post.

[Troll's Puzzle]

Most of England has negligible or non existent Celtic origins except in Cornwall. The rest of the English population's background is of French Norman/Anglo Saxon heritage. I would identify as an Englishman as being largely of Germanic descent.

lol @ this post

celtic heritage is much greater than 'norman' heritage in England fo' sho'.

Norman heritage is in fact, "negligible or non existant", except culturally where it was of huge effect.

[Bridie]

lol @ this post

celtic heritage is much greater than 'norman' heritage in England fo' sho'.

Norman heritage is in fact, "negligible or non existant", except culturally where it was of huge effect.Don't be ridiculous, Troll's Puzzle. The English are more German than the Germans themselves... this shows just how Germanic England is. None of this "Celtic" riff raff, thank-you. :wink

[Loki]

The English are mostly Germanic (well, Anglo-Saxon), and the Welsh are Celts. That's pretty clear cut.


That's the general perception I had too, but I have recently learnt of a considerable Flemish input in Wales ... actually quite significant - don't have the link now. Treffie, for example - a Welsh guy - clusters genetically closer to Scandinavians than to most of his compatriots!

[Bridie]

That's the general perception I had too, but I have recently learnt of a considerable Flemish input in Wales ... actually quite significant - don't have the link now.We're all Germans in the end.



Treffie, for example - a Welsh guy - clusters genetically closer to Scandinavians than to most of his compatriots!He also has some Russian ancestry. I suppose that the Welsh are Slavic now too?

[GeistFaust]

The English are mostly Germanic (well, Anglo-Saxon), and the Welsh are Celts. That's pretty clear cut.

Scotland is a pretty strange case. Highland Scots have a tiny bit of Celtic blood, but Lowland Scots (like myself) are 100% Germanic. More than the English. But most of us Scots have adopted this Celtic-inspired romanticized self-image, just to stick it to the English wankers. :p

Yeah the Lowland Scotsmen are practically Englishmen in kilts. :rolleyes: A lot of them are of Anglo Saxon/Danish/French Norman background. A lot of the original Celts in the lowland were pushed out to the Ulster plantations. I think the Highland Scots are much more Gaelic that and Norwegian Norse with some French Norman.

[Troll's Puzzle]

I haven't been speaking of hate though, just identification.

iD is a shifty-sand kinda thing (although with ethnic 'deep roots' which are perminant). many of the brits who fought in WWII and especiailly WWI (Siegfried Sasson? Wilfred Owen?) had germanic names as there had been a recent revival of 'germanic' identification in britain, and identifying with 'anglo' roots reflecting in giving them 'names like the ancestors' rather than bibical names.
Personally I see that movement as a positive thing ('knowing your roots', it's what the rappers I listened to as a early teeny went on about all the time) & the idea of hatin' huns because they were the person unlucky enough to be the last victims of the mighty anglos pretty lame and unfortunate. Especially when you remember Brits and Krauts never had a 'proper' war until WWI, and we instead fought the (much more hateworthy ;)) frogs and spics for hundreds and hundreds of years previously... yet the wheel stops on huns so we have to hate them now? meh
fortunately it will wash away with time, unfortunately there may not be 'english' around to do so... hopefully if there are they will accept a 'deeper' past then just some guy with a little mustache though (it's all you see in the ' german history' section of bookshops here)




Cheeky cheeky.... :icon_wink:


In any case, are you a Germanicist, Troll's Puzzle?

in some ways I guess so, but only as an extension of 'ethnocentricism', like an onion with me in the middle, family on the next layer, 'region' the other, 'country' the other, and related countries the next, which mean peoples like the germs who were a big ingredient in making die uber anglos (even giving the word to us) are 'companions' to my mind...
but not so much in other 'stereotype' ways, eg. I don't hate slavs or think of them as mongol subhumans, in fact many of them are the next layer of the onion, being as there is a kind of 'unity' around the north sea, and so on and on


Don't be ridiculous, Troll's Puzzle. The English are more German than the Germans themselves... this shows just how Germanic England is. None of this "Celtic" riff raff, thank-you. :wink

i know, i was only trying to wind him up ;)

[GeistFaust]

lol @ this post

celtic heritage is much greater than 'norman' heritage in England fo' sho'.

Norman heritage is in fact, "negligible or non existant", except culturally where it was of huge effect.

Have you ever looked into the large majority of English surnames or genealogies a lot of them have French Norman ancestors. I think the Anglo Saxon influence on the island was greater along with the Danes but the French Norman had a considerable impact as well and more than people give it credit for genetically.

[Stars Down To Earth]

Yeah the Lowland Scotsmen are practically Englishmen in kilts.
Ya fuckin cunt, ye wantin chibbed? :p

[Logan]

Germanic and Celtic relate more to cultures than to genetics or craniometry, though they contain both.

[Troll's Puzzle]

Have you ever looked into the large majority of English surnames or genealogies a lot of them have French Norman ancestors. I think the Anglo Saxon influence on the island was greater along with the Danes but the French Norman had a considerable impact as well and more than people give it credit for genetically.

surnames ≠ lineage

yes, quite a few of the upper class have 'french norman' geneologies.

but there aren't many upper class people. Most people (including me) don't even have 'geneologies' , let alone 'french norman' ones. Hell, we didn't even have surnames ourselves at the time the 'french normans' were handing them out...

[GeistFaust]

surnames ≠ lineage

yes, quite a few of the upper class have 'french norman' geneologies.

but there aren't many upper class people. Most people (including me) don't even have 'geneologies' , let alone 'french norman' ones. Hell, we didn't even have surnames ourselves at the time the 'french normans' were handing them out...

The 5 to 8% of my English family lines were full with French Normans that is a lot of them were prominent families that came to England and settled among the early colonist. So perhaps my genealogical understanding of the Britain has been very narrow since most of them were Captains in the military, Aristocrats, or Knighted. The Upper class look of the English is more French Norman inspired than Anglo Saxon influenced.

[Stars Down To Earth]

The Upper class look of the English is more French Norman inspired than Anglo Saxon influenced.
The "upper-class look" of the English toffs is a result of inbreeding, mate.

There is no typical "French Norman look", since the Normans belonged to the same ethnic group as the Scandinavians and Anglo-Saxons.

[GeistFaust]

The "upper-class" look of the English is a result of inbreeding, mate.

There is no typical "French Norman look", since the Normans belonged to the same ethnic group as the Scandinavians and Anglo-Saxons.

Yeah that's probably more like on the Scottish and English sides they all inbred the grandchildren would marry with each other up until the 18th century or even latter.

[GeistFaust]

I think the British Isles in general is more Germanic than it likes to think except for large parts of Ireland.

[Bridie]

Have you ever looked into the large majority of English surnames or genealogies a lot of them have French Norman ancestors.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=428490&postcount=3



I think the Anglo Saxon influence on the island was greater along with the Danes but the French Norman had a considerable impact as well and more than people give it credit for genetically.Its not a matter of people giving them credit or not. It is an historical, documented fact that not many Norman settlers arrived in England.

[GeistFaust]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=428490&postcount=3


Its not a matter of people giving them credit or not. It is an historical, documented fact that not many Norman settlers arrived in England.

Ah that makes sense but I have clearly been able to trace some of my Scottish and English ancestors although few back to the 12th century. I suppose I am one of the few ones. Anyway I do agree that the Anglo Saxon and Danish influences on the island were much stronger than the French Norman.

[Bridie]

Ah that makes sense but I have clearly been able to trace some of my Scottish and English ancestors although few back to the 12th century.It makes little difference, as I explain here (from the same thread as my link above) :


I've found in my own genealogical research that its often impossible to tell if that branch of your ancestry was originally Brythonic, Anglo-Saxon or Norman when we're speaking of so long ago. I hit a brick wall when trying to determine the origins of an ancestor of mine, Robert de Ainsworth (b. 1175 - first named in a charter in 1212), since while the name "de Ainsworth" would imply a Norman origin, Norman names were sometimes given to prominent Anglo-Saxon or Brythonic families if they were granted lands by the Normans (as was often done. Not all landowners were Norman. Take into account that not many Normans migrated to England, afterall).
Really, its nigh impossible to tell if they were Norman or not.

[GeistFaust]

It makes little difference, as I explain here (from the same thread as my link above) :

Really, its nigh impossible to tell if they were Norman or not.

True but if they have a first name like Nigel, Reginald, or Robert most likely they are more Norman inspired names. I agree with what you have said and know the Norman influences were mostly among the upper nobility and the land gentry. The point is the Normans have had influences on Britain more than some people think primarily because they like to inbred a lot.

[Bridie]

True but if they have a first name like Nigel, Reginald, or Robert most likely they are more Norman inspired names.Not really, since Norman first names were the fashion in Norman times.

[GeistFaust]

Not really, since Norman first names were the fashion in Norman times.

Than your point is not mute. You must admit a lot of the upper classes were more French Norman. A lot of the knights who went off to the crusades were French Norman. I think if the British are predominantly more Anglo Saxon, Danish, Celtic than they could match up with the Dutch, Germans, and Danish most likely in genetic tests as has been validated for the most part.

[Peasant]

Than your point is not mute. You must admit a lot of the upper classes were more French Norman. A lot of the knights who went off to the crusades were French Norman. I think if the British are predominantly more Anglo Saxon, Danish, Celtic than they could match up with the Dutch, Germans, and Danish most likely in genetic tests as has been validated for the most part.

What? They became Norman because they adopted Norman names? Not really. :confused:

[GeistFaust]

What? They became Norman because they adopted Norman names? Not really. :confused:

Yeah I know I don't know what Mary is talking about I can name a lot of Anglo Saxon English names off the top of the head. Yes some of them did change them to conform with the French but even than they can be traced back to their Anglo Saxon roots. A large majority of them can be traced back to their original roots anyway.

[Bridie]

Yes some of them did change them to conform with the French but even than they can be traced back to their Anglo Saxon roots.
They didn't change their names... surnames didn't exist in England before the arrival of the Normans.



A large majority of them can be traced back to their original roots anyway.Actually, its a very, very small minority.

[GeistFaust]

They didn't change their names... surnames didn't exist in England before the arrival of the Normans.


Actually, its a very, very small minority.

Yes I know that but I have seen individuals who ended up finding they had French Norman ancestry but their surname was Anglo Saxon now explain that.

[Bridie]

Yes I know that but I have seen individuals who ended up finding they had French Norman ancestry but their surname was Anglo Saxon now explain that.How did they discover that they had French Norman ancestry? I would be skeptical of such claims.

[GeistFaust]

How did they discover that they had French Norman ancestry? I would be skeptical of such claims.

It was a rumor in the family and DNA possibly backed it up.

[Bridie]

It was a rumor in the family and DNA possibly backed it up.Doesn't sound likely.

[GeistFaust]

Either way I think the Normans contributed to the British Isles more culturally and politically and less so ethnically but we would need to do some extensive research to claim anything concretely.

[Bridie]

Either way I think the Normans contributed to the British Isles more culturally and politically and less so ethnically but we would need to do some extensive research to claim anything concretely.No need to do research. Just read some history books.

[GeistFaust]

No need to do research. Just read some history books.

I have read them all indications point to the French Normans being more of an influence culturally and politically rather than ethnically although I doubt that a lot of history books go that deeply into genetics and explore more the cultural and political aspects of a people.

[Osweo]

Yep, primarily. But what about the earlier pre-Saxon Roman conquest. Did that leave any traces in the language? I'm asking merely from a speculating point of view.
It left a lot of impact on Welsh (words for... bridge, window, blessing, book, church, doctor etc.), but it appears that the Engle weren't too keen on borrowing these words.

The English will still not be part of some wider Germanic brotherhood...
I'm English, and I will. :shrug:

Not ONLY that, but it's one brotherhood I'm part of!

they will still not sympathise with the Germans...
I'm English and I do. I sympathise with all Europeans suffering from the ills of our age.


they will still not support any German attempts at expansionism/invasion in Europe...
I support their reunification, and will at least listen to talk of restoration of lands wrongfully taken from them.


and many of them will go on disliking the Germans as much as ever.
I never disliked them.



So who cares if the English are Germanic or Celtic or Latin or bloody-well Martian??? No one with half a brain, because in the real world it means FUCK ALL.

What is the point in studying something that has no relevance to anything, not even entertainment value? I'll tell you what, its not done. And what does that tell you? Someone, somewhere is hoping that connecting the English with the Germans/Germanics will achieve something.
Sounds a bit paranoid to me. :ohwell:

I like to study things for the sake of it, but like Troll's Puzzle said, the Germanic story is a VITAL part of my national story, and worthy of my attention.

It is worthy of yours too, as you have near enough as much Saxon in you as I, if not more.

Yes, I am anti-Germanicist (in regards to my people being a part of it or not). My Great-Grandpas who fought in two world wars against the Germans would be most proud. :thumb001:
lol, my Grandfathers fought them. Yet my best teacher in Infant school was German.

THIS is the significant part of the World War stuff;

I don't base my views on who my ancestors at one time or another were told to fight against by their rulers. ...
And I certainly hope other people don't hate me because of who some people of my ethny were told to kill in the distant past.


Most of England has negligible or non existent Celtic origins except in Cornwall. The rest of the English population's background is of French Norman/Anglo Saxon heritage. I would identify as an Englishman as being largely of Germanic descent.
That's just downright wrongish, Kiddo. :D

In 500 AD 'Englishman' meant a recent German immigrant.
In 600 AD it probably meant on average a man with a Welsh great grandparent.
In 800 AD it would have been fiendishly complicated, with all sorts of crazy 17/64 type fractions.
In 2000 AD, we're ALL going to have a bit of Kraut in us, even the most remote Welsh or Hebridean goat farmer.

[GeistFaust]

It left a lot of impact on Welsh (words for... bridge, window, blessing, book, church, doctor etc.), but it appears that the Engle weren't too keen on borrowing these words.

I'm English, and I will. :shrug:

Not ONLY that, but it's one brotherhood I'm part of!

I'm English and I do. I sympathise with all Europeans suffering from the ills of our age.

I support their reunification, and will at least listen to talk of restoration of lands wrongfully taken from them.

I never disliked them.


Sounds a bit paranoid to me. :ohwell:

I like to study things for the sake of it, but like Troll's Puzzle said, the Germanic story is a VITAL part of my national story, and worthy of my attention.

It is worthy of yours too, as you have near enough as much Saxon in you as I, if not more.

lol, my Grandfathers fought them. Yet my best teacher in Infant school was German.

THIS is the significant part of the World War stuff;



That's just downright wrongish, Kiddo. :D

In 500 AD 'Englishman' meant a recent German immigrant.
In 600 AD it probably meant on average a man with a Welsh great grandparent.
In 800 AD it would have been fiendishly complicated, with all sorts of crazy 17/64 type fractions.
In 2000 AD, we're ALL going to have a bit of Kraut in us, even the most remote Welsh or Hebridean goat farmer.

I agree with this it seems there are layers upon layers of interesting dynamics behind the ethnic composition of the English people.

[Trog]

This only reiterates a fact that is commonly recognised amongst us true native Britons; that the English are different from the rest of us and that the true inhabitant of the Isles is a Celt- an ethnicity and identity that is spiritually and essentially distinct from Germanics.

[Peasant]

I just noticed how Cornwall is lighter than the neighbouring counties. :D

[Osweo]

This only reiterates a fact that is commonly recognised amongst us true native Britons; that the English are different from the rest of us and that the true inhabitant of the Isles is a Celt- an ethnicity and identity that is spiritually and essentially distinct from Germanics.

LOL

[Trog]

Interesting article. I suspect that a lot of Scots and Welsh are closer to the Germans than they had ever envisaged (just like me).

Remember all those articles that also claim ties to Basques and Iberians? There's various theories out there and we must consider that before wetting the appetites of those pesky heathens.

[Trog]

LOL

Look you, just because you're a bastard child of Germanics doesn't mean that every other Brit is the same. It's an established fact that before the Anglo-Saxon invasions, there had already been a highly civilised and cultured race present in the British Isles that so called "Germanics" had nothing to do with.

[Troll's Puzzle]

This only reiterates a fact that is commonly recognised amongst us true native Britons; that the English are different from the rest of us and that the true inhabitant of the Isles is a Celt- an ethnicity and identity that is spiritually and essentially distinct from Germanics.

scotland has much germanic influence, moreseo than large parts of england

a sizeable portion of scots look pure norse to me

[Bridie]

I'm English, and I will. :shrug:

Not ONLY that, but it's one brotherhood I'm part of!What about the brotherhood of the Paddies? Would make more sense considering that the overwhelming bulk of your ancestors came from Ireland.




I'm English and I do. I sympathise with all Europeans suffering from the ills of our age.

I support their reunification, and will at least listen to talk of restoration of lands wrongfully taken from them.

I never disliked them.
I was talking about normal people, Os... not you. :wink



Sounds a bit paranoid to me. :ohwell:Spend a bit of time chatting to certain German political activists (like Spjabork - I think you'll remember him?) and you will see where I'm coming from.



I like to study things for the sake of it, but like Troll's Puzzle said, the Germanic story is a VITAL part of my national story, and worthy of my attention. Fine. But it doesn't make us Germanics.



It is worthy of yours too, as you have near enough as much Saxon in you as I, if not more.Be serious now, Os. Compare the proportion of my English heritage with yours.



This only reiterates a fact that is commonly recognised amongst us true native Britons; that the English are different from the rest of us That is what Germanicists would have us believe, yes. The English are "peripheral Germans" and any Briton blood in their veins is insignificant.



and that the true inhabitant of the Isles is a Celt- an ethnicity and identity that is spiritually and essentially distinct from Germanics.It is indeed.

[Trog]

Right, so someone, I don't know what, is going to lecture a Scot about Scotland? I think not. In fact, let me rephrase;

A dinny hink so hen.

[GeistFaust]

scotland has much germanic influence, moreseo than large parts of england

a sizeable portion of scots look pure norse to me

A sizable portions looks like Norwegians to you? What does that mean can you specify more so. I think about 10% of them would qualify as pure Norse looking the rest my be mixed. We have a new member on her who looks rather Halstatt Nordic which is a Scano Nordid variant found in Scotland at times. Would you agree with me if I said the French Norman influence ethnically in parts of Scotland was heavier than in England. Also as far as I know there was a lot of inbreeding going on in Scotland from the early 13th century to the 18th century primarily.

[Great Dane]

I just noticed how Cornwall is lighter than the neighbouring counties. :D

The map just shows paternal ancestry. Maternally areas like Cornwall or the Isle of Man must be predominately Celtic, accounting for survival of Celtic tongues in those areas until roughly 200 years ago. That is why it is called 'mother tongue'.

[GeistFaust]

Right, so someone, I don't know what, is going to lecture a Scot about Scotland? I think not. In fact, let me rephrase;

A dinny hink so hen.

Scotland is an odd apple in the British Isles the more Souther portions are heavily influenced by more Anglo Saxon or Danish peoples that came up from the north borderlands of England there were some Pictish peoples still in that area. As I recall a large part of Southern and Southwestern Scotland was heavily defended to great success by the Pictish warriors against the Norwegian Norse. A lot of the Norwegian Norse influences the coastlines and the inlet areas in the Midlands and Highlands of Scotland.

[Troll's Puzzle]

A dinny hink so hen.

scots 'language' itself is just a dialect of English.

true story! :wink

[Trog]

A Also as far as I know there was a lot of inbreeding going on in Scotland from the early 13th century to the 18th century primarily.

Do you have a source for this? Or is this what is known as intellectual discourse?

[Trog]

scots 'language' itself is just a dialect of English.

true story! :wink

The fact remains, you are in no position to inform me about my country. Besides, the English language owes its creation to Rome.

[Hess]

http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/n558/k151/thisthreadfuckingsucks.png

[Trog]

Scotland is an odd apple in the British Isles the more Souther portions are heavily influenced by more Anglo Saxon or Danish peoples that came up from the north borderlands of England there were some Pictish peoples still in that area. As I recall a large part of Southern and Southwestern Scotland was heavily defended to great success by the Pictish warriors against the Norwegian Norse. A lot of the Norwegian Norse influences the coastlines and the inlet areas in the Midlands and Highlands of Scotland.

Picts were in the north east, Britons/Welsh were in Strathclyde, Scotti were in the west, followed by French, Normans, etc.

The study "The Blood of the Vikings" didn't reveal all that much input from Norse.

[GeistFaust]

Do you have a source for this? Or is this what is known as intellectual discourse?

Yes I have done genealogy on most of the Scottish clans and found that a few of them inbred whether it be grandchildren marrying each other a brother marrying his mother a sister marrying her father and a couple great grand children marrying each other it was common among the English upper class. But even members of the lower class and middle class in Scotland had inbreeding although it was less frequent than among the more prominent Clans. Its rare to see inbreeding but it did happen at times.

[Bridie]

The fact remains, you are in no position to inform me about my country. Yet you are in a position to inform the English of their identity? LOL

[GeistFaust]

Picts were in the north east, Britons/Welsh were in Strathclyde, Scotti were in the west, followed by French, Normans, etc.

The study "The Blood of the Vikings" didn't reveal all that much input from Norse.

Yeah well you excluded the Anglo Saxon Border Reivers. I don't think the Norse influence was that heavy there are some notable clans like the MacDonalds and MacNeills which has some Norwegian Norse influences but it was more of the exception. As far as I am concerned the French Normans settled primarily in the midlands and in the highlands.

[GeistFaust]

Yet you are in a position to inform the English of their identity? LOL

Mary Bryrant let the Scottish be they certainly don't want to be identified as English which I am in no rightful position to defend. If they want to differentiate themselves with their past history and by wearing kilts let it be. I think the culture of Scotland is more Celtic than Great Britain but over the years it has become more Anglicized especially in the South of Scotland.

[Trog]

Yes I have done genealogy on most of the Scottish clans and found that a few of them inbred whether it be grandchildren marrying each other a brother marrying his mother a sister marrying her father and a couple great grand children marrying each other it was common among the English upper class. But even members of the lower class and middle class in Scotland had inbreding although it was less frequent than among the more prominent Clans. Its rare to see inbreeding but it did happen at times.

I see. I ask for a source and you elect yourself as the scholar?

[Hess]

Mary Bryrant let the Scottish be they certainly don't want to be identified as English which I am in no rightful position to defend. If they want to differentiate themselves with their past history and by wearing kilts let it be. I think the culture of Scotland is more Celtic than Great Britain but over the years it has become more Anglicized especially in the South of Scotland.

Me and my mates
http://www.coool-stuff.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/kilt1.jpg

[Bridie]

Mary Bryrant let the Scottish be they certainly don't want to be identified as English Not surprising, since the Scottish aren't English. :rolleyes:

[GeistFaust]

Me and my mates
http://www.coool-stuff.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/kilt1.jpg

Okay that is truly disgusting and vulgar. *face palms*

[Peasant]

If they want to differentiate themselves with their past history and by wearing kilts let it be

:laugh:

[Trog]

Yet you are in a position to inform the English of their identity? LOL

The article did. I just reaffirmed it from a Scottish and Celtic perspective.

Isn't this the same woman who lamented over the destruction of the English identity, claiming that Australians were more in tune with their English ancestors than what modern-day English are?:rolleyes:

[Trog]

Not surprising, since the Scottish aren't English. :rolleyes:

Not Germanic either.:thumb001:

[Trog]

Okay that is truly disgusting and vulgar. *face palms*


I love it:D

[Hess]

Okay that is truly disgusting and vulgar. *face palms*

I was feeling a bit daring and decided to go with the Pink Panties.

TBH, they complement my kilt quite nicely.

[Bridie]

The article did. I just reaffirmed it from a Scottish and Celtic perspective.

And many other articles claim the exact opposite.

Quite cowardly of you to hide behind an article.





Isn't this the same woman who lamented over the destruction of the English identity, claiming that Australians were more in tune with their English ancestors than what modern-day English are?:rolleyes:I don't recall ever saying that, but if I did it was quite clever of me, wasn't it now? :wink

[Bridie]

Not Germanic either.:thumb001:I've read articles surmising that you are.

[GeistFaust]

I see. I ask for a source and you elect yourself as the scholar?

Overall it was rare but I did find one clan that had inbreeding going on over a small time frame from the 1500s to 1600s if you want me show you the genealogical charts I can. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Maitland

[Trog]

Mary Bryrant let the Scottish be they certainly don't want to be identified as English which I am in no rightful position to defend. If they want to differentiate themselves with their past history and by wearing kilts let it be. I think the culture of Scotland is more Celtic than Great Britain but over the years it has become more Anglicized especially in the South of Scotland.

The question here is one of Germanic, not English. So of course Scots aren't English and are not Germanic either. We're native to the British isles, our legacy lies spilled over the lands by our forefathers who gave their lives to defend our right to be Scottish and Celtic. Some Yeti from Norway thinks he can snatch that away from us in a hissy fit? Some of your forefathers tried that before and failed, yet their attempt was far more audacious and voilent than your feeble attempt.

the Picts in their kilts.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3d/Pictish_Stone_at_Aberlemno_Church_Yard_-_Battle_Scene_Detail.jpg/220px-Pictish_Stone_at_Aberlemno_Church_Yard_-_Battle_Scene_Detail.jpg

[GeistFaust]

And many other articles claim the exact opposite.

Quite cowardly of you to hide behind an article.



I don't recall ever saying that, but if I did it was quite clever of me, wasn't it now? :wink

I say if it makes some Scots on to identify as Celtic let it be I know a lot of Scots on Skadi that openly identify as Germanic kilts or no kilts. I think that was quite clever of you. It is actually true to some extent all the criminals sent to Australia are the last true representation of the British people while all the British fat cats in England are now mixing in with other races truly pathetic to say the least.

[Trog]

I've read articles surmising that you are.

Perhaps you ought to try and develop your critical reading skills. just a wee tip.

[Bridie]

I think that was quite clever of you. It is actually true to some extent all the criminals sent to Australia are the last true representation of the British people while all the British fat cats in England are now mixing in with other races truly pathetic to say the least. I seriously doubt that I ever said that, GF.



Perhaps you ought to try and develop your critical reading skills. just a wee tip.Same could be said of you. ;)

[GeistFaust]

The question here is one of Germanic, not English. So of course Scots aren't English and are not Germanic either. We're native to the British isles, our legacy lies spilled over the lands by our forefathers who gave their lives to defend our right to be Scottish and Celtic. Some Yeti from Norway thinks he can snatch that away from us in a hissy fit? Some of your forefathers tried that before and failed, yet their attempt was far more audacious and voilent than your feeble attempt.

the Picts in their kilts.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3d/Pictish_Stone_at_Aberlemno_Church_Yard_-_Battle_Scene_Detail.jpg/220px-Pictish_Stone_at_Aberlemno_Church_Yard_-_Battle_Scene_Detail.jpg

I agree with this. You are truly displaying your fiery Gaelic Scottish resilience I don't know if my Germanic mentality will be able to keep up quite frankly. I think it depends on what families you belong to in Scotland its not always regional. Although I think some regions in Scotland have a higher tendency of being Gaelic rather than Germanic. Personally you are the Scottish individual here I should be giving you more credit than these blimey Brits. If you want to have a fight about it I would suggest you take it on the border. I agree though a lot of Celtic tribes did their best to fight off Germanic invasions and movements but unfortunately a lot of lowlanders were kicked out to the Plantations in Ulster and they were replaced with a predominantly Germanic population. This is the truth.

[Trog]

Overall it was rare but I did find one clan that had inbreeding going on over a small time frame from the 1500s to 1600s if you want me show you the genealogical charts I can. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_Maitland

of course. When all else fails, try Wiki. I still do not see anything that supports your claims. What you need to source are the levels of consanguinity. It seems ironic anyway for a norwegian to yell innavlede at anyone else.

[Osweo]

What about the brotherhood of the Paddies? Would make more sense considering that the overwhelming bulk of your ancestors came from Ireland.
Sorry if you're out of the loop, but I'm mostly English now. :D
Damn genealogy! The figure's at roughly 5/8 or summat like that.

Spend a bit of time chatting to certain German political activists (like Spjabork - I think you'll remember him?) .
Ummm... I don't actually. :o


Fine. But it doesn't make us Germanics.
Our language, name and history do that. :cool:


Be serious now, Os. Compare the proportion of my English heritage with yours.
You don't half make assumptions about my memory. :( HOW English are you, again? :p


any Briton blood in their veins is insignificant.

Drivel. :shrug:

[GeistFaust]

of course. When all else fails, try Wiki. I still do not see anything that supports your claims. What you need to source are the levels of consanguinity. It seems ironic anyway for a norwegian to yell innavlede at anyone else.

I was just pointing out one clan I had found and I thought wiki was a practical and easy way of showing you. I did say if you wanted to look at the genealogical evidence you could have. But you never have asked for it so I quite left to wait until you ask I until I show you the information you wanted.

[Trog]

And many other articles claim the exact opposite.

Quite cowardly of you to hide behind an article.

:rolleyes: You were the one who relied on reading articles to support your statement when you said, "I've read articles surmising that you are." I simply rely on the fact that, um, well, that I happen to be Scottish and oh, yeah, actually live in Scotland!:eek:






I don't recall ever saying that, but if I did it was quite clever of me, wasn't it now? :wink

If you say so, that is if foot-in-mouth is synonymous with smartness.

[Osweo]

Sorry GF and Trog, but your respective understandings of Scotch history is about equally as bad as each other's. :D

[R4ge]

It would be fun to see Germany dump the EU and form a union with UK. EU would be nothing without Germany.

[GeistFaust]

Sorry GF and Trog, but your respective understandings of Scotch history is about equally as bad as each other's. :D

I don't know why you would insult Trogs knowledge of Scottish history it seems like she knows what she is talking about. If anything the British on here who are contesting her seem to be at fault. I would take Trogs side anyway come on bring it on.

[Óttar]

They had sailed 600 kilometers (372 miles) down the coast from their native North Frisia, and had then made the crossing to a green and pleasant Britain.
:eek: Look out Englanders! Civis Batavi is gonna come annex you!!!

[GeistFaust]

It would be fun to see Germany dump the EU and form a union with UK. EU would be nothing without Germany.

Yeah I have always advocated for something like that to happen that way Germany takes complete power over Europe and united with Britain creating an unstoppable powerhouse. I don't see how this correlates with the thread though.

[Hess]

I was just pointing out one clan I had found and I thought wiki was a practical and easy way of showing you. I did say if you wanted to look at the genealogical evidence you could have. But you never have asked for it so I quite left to wait until you ask I until I show you the information you wanted.

Like you said before, I think this is a matter of culture, nothing else. The Scots see themselves as having a unique identity and hate being lumped in with any other group.

I completely understand, I would fight to preserve to something like that as well
http://media.vcstar.com/media/img/photos/2010/11/23/kilt_t300.jpg

[Trog]

Sorry GF and Trog, but your respective understandings of Scotch history is about equally as bad as each other's. :D

Depending on the source, of course. I will repeat that no one, especially an Englush man is gonna start telling me what culture I identify with. For "Germanic" is exactly that, a culture and a modern day one at that. Just talk to the Bavarians, they're about as Germanic as a kebab!

[Trog]

It would be fun to see Germany dump the EU and form a union with UK. EU would be nothing without Germany.

Both seem in cultural decline, and I would fault the EU for a lot of it. That and Anglo-Saxon genes.

[GeistFaust]

Both seem in cultural decline, and I would fault the EU for a lot of it. That and Anglo-Saxon genes.

Hahaha now you are making an attack against Anglo Saxon genes. You really hate Germanics it seems. What is the cause for this deep seated anger has a Germanic ever done anything to harm or hurt you in anyway?

[Trog]

I don't know why you would insult Trogs knowledge of Scottish history it seems like she knows what she is talking about. If anything the British on here who are contesting her seem to be at fault. I would take Trogs side anyway come on bring it on.

I don't see any Brits debating with me (well, apart from O and his usual snappy comments). There's a confused Aussie, some wench from god knows where and well, you. Perhaps that's because there's little to debate.

[Hess]

Hahaha now you are making an attack against Anglo Saxon genes. You really hate Germanics it seems. What is the cause for this deep seated anger has a Germanic ever done anything to harm or hurt you in anyway?

slow down there Dr. Freud, if you were Scottish or Irish you probably wouldn't be too fond of the English either.

[GeistFaust]

I don't see any Brits debating with me (well, apart from O and his usual snappy comments). There's a confused Aussie, some wench from god knows where and well, you. Perhaps that's because there's little to debate.

We could debate on the who is more Celtic the Irish or Scottish I know you have to agree with me its the Irish.

[Hess]

I don't see any Brits debating with me (well, apart from O and his usual snappy comments). There's a confused Aussie, some wench from god knows where and well, you. Perhaps that's because there's little to debate.

See, now that was a bit uncalled for :(

[GeistFaust]

slow down there Dr. Freud, if you were Scottish or Irish you probably wouldn't be too fond of the English either.

Yeah it seems like she is playing the black card in this case. Trying to make a quick insult on the Germanic peoples because she feels oppressed and suppressed by them culturally and ethnically. Its a matter of resentment in this case and it has become clear to me she is jealous of Anglo Saxons. I did not mind her Celtic Nationalism at first but now she has taken it to a whole new level. I have to agree the English did harm and hurt the Celtic way of life all over the British Isles but clearly the Gaelic culture has survived quite strongly and is still very vibrant in its existence.

[Trog]

See, now that was a bit uncalled for :(

Says a guy with "Niggers" in his sig? Come on now!

[The Lawspeaker]

Hahaha now you are making an attack against Anglo Saxon genes. You really hate Germanics it seems. What is the cause for this deep seated anger has a Germanic ever done anything to harm or hurt you in anyway?
Maybe her ex-boyfriend walked off with an English, Dutch or German lass ? We will never know. :coffee:

[Osweo]

For Fuck's sake, Yanks, the British Isles isn't the idiotic 'goodie baddie' situation that you seem to think it is. We've all been happily fucking each other for centuries, despite the wars and so forth. Now and then some ignorant fool here will forget that part of it, and join in with your black/white simplistic dualism, but this is a blatantly superficial way of looking at British affairs.

[Trog]

The problem is Germanics have a poor history, a reputation of uncouth mannerisms and unnecessary violence, as well as destruction and theft. Indeed, Germanics endangered civilisation, their appreciation of culture was on a par with New Guineans. No different from any sub-saharan African really. They pillaged and they robbed. They raped and they slaughtered.

Whilst Britain is located in northern Europe, our culture originally came from Iberia (megaliths/original Britons) and then from Greco-Rome. Our gene pool testifies that we are different from Germanics that is why we have been the only northern European country to have an empire. Germanics don't have such granduer to celebrate, even the English don't have a right. An Iberian or Italian has more right to claim ancient British history than what Germanics do since all Germanics did was try and destroy our culture, when it was Romans and Iberians who were the initial contributors.

So all you Germanics can just feck aff!

[Hess]

Says a guy with "Niggers" in his sig? Come on now!

but niggers deserve it.

Mary, on the other hand, has been rather calm and respectful in your conversation. :coffee:

[Bridie]

Sorry if you're out of the loop, but I'm mostly English now. :D
Damn genealogy! The figure's at roughly 5/8 or summat like that.Your self-hatred reaches new heights.



You were the one who relied on reading articles to support your statement when you said, "I've read articles surmising that you are." I simply rely on the fact that, um, well, that I happen to be Scottish and oh, yeah, actually live in Scotland!

You obviously didn't notice the ironic tone of my post. I'll spell it out for you....

You - I'm just backing up the article in order to dictate to the English of their identity.

Me - Articles are to be taken with a grain of salt... otherwise I could post one that concludes that the Scots are Germanic and it would be just as conclusively factual. (Ie, not at all.)



I simply rely on the fact that, um, well, that I happen to be Scottish and oh, yeah, actually live in Scotland!

Yeah, you are a German in a kilt. I know, I know.

[Trog]

but niggers deserve it.

Mary, on the other hand, has been rather calm and respectful in your conversation. :coffee:

Well I can see that Mary is in need of support, but her passive-aggressive approach is hardly respectful. But I didn't call her a wench, it was simply a term to try and identify the female poster who thought she had some insight into being Scottish and I couldn't remember what she or it was in terms of identity.

[The Lawspeaker]

And you have only come back to this forum in order to thrash your Germanic neighbours ? Without which.. well your clans would still have been murdering each other into extinction ?

[Bridie]

Well I can see that Mary is in need of support, but her passive-aggressive approach is hardly respectful. But I didn't call her a wench, it was simply a term to try and identify the female poster who thought she had some insight into being Scottish and I couldn't remember what she or it was in terms of identity.I didn't claim any such insight. I claimed that you have no right to dictate anything about English identity. End of story.

[Trog]

You obviously didn't notice the ironic tone of my post. I'll spell it out for you....

You - I'm just backing up the article in order to dictate to the English of their identity.

Me - Articles are to be taken with a grain of salt... otherwise I could post one that concludes that the Scots are Germanic and it would be just as conclusively factual. (Ie, not at all.)



Yeah, you are a German in a kilt. I know, I know.[/QUOTE]

So you're guilty of a selective bias when it comes to sources. It matters not, articles are of some use depending on how credible they are. Wiki is not a worthy source, generally the more peer-reviewed, academic a source is, the more credibility it has.

But what beats it all is that I'm a Scot and have no shared identity with a Germanic culture.

[Hess]

Well I can see that Mary is in need of support, but her passive-aggressive approach is hardly respectful. But I didn't call her a wench, it was simply a term to try and identify the female poster who thought she had some insight into being Scottish and I couldn't remember what she or it was in terms of identity.

well, I'm not here to support anyone- my only agenda promoting respectful, productive discourse
:food-smiley-004:

[The Lawspeaker]

But what beats it all is that I'm a Scot and have no shared identity with a Germanic culture.
Ooh really ? So tell me.. Do you speaks Scots as your native language or do you speak Gàidhlig as your native tongue. Do you use postal codes or does the mailman need to contact your clan first ? Ooh no wait: do you use Ogam or the Latin script that was brought to you by the Romans and later on again by the missionaries after it had replaced the Runic system the Germanics used.

And why are you a Catholic ? That faith was brought to you by missionaries coming in from England.

[GeistFaust]

Ah this is coming from a Scottish individual and I respect your opinion although I think its distorted by cultural bias. They might have endangered other peoples primitive forms of civilizations. But a lot of the law systems, government systems, intellectual thought was developed by Germanics from the collapse of the Roman Empire onwards.

The Celtic people did contribute as well but not as extensively probably because they covered a smaller area and never had the urge to conquer other lands like the Germanics did. Now you are making a gross exaggeration the greatest cultures came primarily from Germanic countries. The Germans, Dutch, English, Swedish, and Norwegians produced and contributed much more than the Scottish or Irish for the most part. This is not take away from the significance of the Celtic peoples but you must admit that a great deal of the Scottish people that made influences were more English in their orientation.



Ah this is coming from a Scottish individual and I respect your opinion although I think its distorted by cultural bias. They might have endangered other peoples primitive forms of civilizations. But a lot of the law systems, government systems, intellectual thought was developed by Germanics from the collapse of the Roman Empire onwards.

The Celtic people did contribute as well but not as extensively probably because they covered a smaller area and never had the urge to conquer other lands like the Germanics did. Now you are making a gross exaggeration the greatest cultures came primarily from Germanic countries whether it be England, Germany, Sweden, Norway, or the Netherlands. A lot of the original ideals of the Greeks and Romans were expounded upon by the Germanics who integrated the Greek and Roman understandings of the world into their own cultural perspective to make for a rich and very fruitful combination. The Vikings were not as savage as people make them out to be most of the Vikings who left their land were opportunist indeed but if they did not conquer other people's lands they would not have survived.

When the Vikings settled they contributed greatly to the culture, industry, and civilization of Scotland, England, and Ireland. A lot of Vikings who invaded the British Isles did so because only the first born got the land in the family so the other had to salvage around to find some other land. This is even documented by some Slavic historians on the Rus who would give an ax to their son and say take this your survival depends on this. It was a cruel and brutish way of living but I would not say the Celtic tribes were any better when it came to savagery or primitivism. They had human sacrifices and other vulgar forms and rituals which they practiced. Look most of the peoples even after the Roman period were quite barbaric the Celts were not sipping tea and reading poems by Homer and Ovid yet. Its not like they crashed on their parties and destroyed a beautiful or very well structured culture.

This is absolutely preposterous. You sound like a Celtic Nationalist of sorts. There is no evidence either way that allows us to associate the Celts with the Roman or Grecian civilizations if anything they were little more than a pest for them. Germanics constructed higher forms of culture I believe than Celts. You can argue whether Germanic or Celtic culture was more archaic and mystical than the Germanics which would make some sense since the Celts are the most indigenous peoples in Europe. Unfortunately the term Celts is loosely defined and its hard to apply it to any one people except maybe for the Irish since the Scottish mixed in with the Germanics you abhor so badly.

[Trog]

I didn't claim any such insight. I claimed that you have no right to dictate anything about English identity. End of story.

Your reading comprehension is as reliable as your memory, since you can't even recall attacking the English not so long ago, claiming Australians have more right to identify with the ancestors than what modern-day English have! And now here you are on yer high horse telling a Scot what they are and how they should identify.

A wee bit of self-awareness and reflection could be of real use to you and make a dramatic yet positive difference to your debating skills. Perhaps then you'll be of interest, when currently you're very much like a bluebottle buzzing around this debate and with no real purpose.

PS - I'm simply re-affirming my Scottish identity, I have no real interest in how the English identify.

[Osweo]

http://www.wednesdaymartin.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/catfight-758695.jpg
http://niky4.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/catfight1.jpg

:clap:

[Hess]

Your reading comprehension is as reliable as your memory, since you can't even recall attacking the English not so long ago, claiming Australians have more right to identify with the ancestors than what modern-day English have! And now here you are on yer high horse telling a Scot what they are and how they should identify.

A wee bit of self-awareness and reflection could be of real use to you and make a dramatic yet positive difference to your debating skills. Perhaps then you'll be of interest, when currently you're very much like a bluebottle buzzing around this debate and with no real purpose.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_9FPkhQ1I4Tg/TSkBCcOd9-I/AAAAAAAABSM/Eh0Rp9JGktg/s1600/Blue-Bottle-Beached-%2528Morgan.jpg
To be fair, that is more or less the way I picture Mary to look like :p

[Bridie]

So you're guilty of a selective bias when it comes to sources. It matters not, articles are of some use depending on how credible they are. Wiki is not a worthy source, generally the more peer-reviewed, academic a source is, the more credibility it has. Considering that I have used no articles at all to support my arguments, I shouldn't think I have been guilty of any selective bias. All I have argued here is that no article relating to such a blind spot in British history can be considered conclusive proof of anything.




But what beats it all is that I'm a Scot and have no shared identity with a Germanic culture.Not any more than most English do, no.

Ask an Englishman on the street if he considers himself to be Germanic and I'm pretty sure I know what the answer will be.

[The Lawspeaker]

Ask an Englishman on the street if he considers himself to be Germanic and I'm pretty sure I know what the answer will be.
Even I, a foreigner, would probably know the answer: "A Germanic ? Are you calling me a jerry ?" :cool:

[Trog]

well, I'm not here to support anyone- my only agenda promoting respectful, productive discourse
:food-smiley-004:

Somehow the fact that you're racist and openly so lets down your demeanour. So excuse me if I pass on your willingness to dish out guidance on being civil.

[Bridie]

Your reading comprehension is as reliable as your memory, since you can't even recall attacking the English not so long ago, claiming Australians have more right to identify with the ancestors than what modern-day English have!Show me where I ever said that.




And now here you are on yer high horse telling a Scot what they are and how they should identify.Show me where I ever said who the Scots are and how they should identify themselves.




PS - I'm simply re-affirming my Scottish identity, I have no real interest in how the English identify.It would appear otherwise...

the English are different from the rest of us and that the true inhabitant of the Isles is a Celt- an ethnicity and identity that is spiritually and essentially distinct from Germanics. ;)

[Trog]

Considering that I have used no articles at all to support my arguments, I shouldn't think I have been guilty of any selective bias. All I have argued here is that no article relating to such a blind spot in British history can be considered conclusive proof of anything.



Not any more than most English do, no.

Ask an Englishman on the street if he considers himself to be Germanic and I'm pretty sure I know what the answer will be.

And I repeat, you were the one defending the use of the article which started off this debate. Articles have far more credibility than someone who's at the opposite end of the world, pontificating on what one should identify with. How misguided are you?

All you want is an argument. You're not really interested in what this topic is about.

[Hess]

Somehow the fact that you're racist and openly so lets down your demeanour. So excuse me if I pass on your willingness to dish out guidance on being civil.

http://www.demotivationalposters.org/image/demotivational-poster/0912/implied-facepalm-implied-facepalm-demotivational-poster-1259858393.jpg

Perhaps you should fine tune your Sarcasm Detectors a bit :p

I'm not racist- I don't consider any race to be superior or inferior to any other race

[Trog]

Show me where I ever said that.

Why don't you deny you said it then if it isn't true. Did you say it or not?:cool:




Show me where I ever said who the Scots are and how they should identify themselves.

Exactly whey are we having this debate? Because I, a Scot, reject a Germanic identity in favour of a Celtic one? Where's the problem?




It would appear otherwise...
;)

What I said is historically accurate. A Scottish, Irish or Welsh person is a descendant of native Britons, who incidentally were Celts, not Germanics. The English are from Anglo-Saxons. So again, where is the problem?

[Bridie]

And I repeat, you were the one defending the use of the article which started off this debate. Actually, all throughout this thread, I've been the one refuting the use of the article.

I guess you haven't read much of it.

[Bridie]

Why don't you deny you said it then if it isn't true. Did you say it or not?:cool:
I didn't say it, no. Thanks for your concern.




Exactly whey are we having this debate? Because I, a Scot, reject a Germanic identity in favour of a Celtic one? Where's the problem?WTF??? I've never said that the Scots are Germanic.




What I said is historically accurate. A Scottish, Irish or Welsh person is a descendant of native Britons, who incidentally were Celts, not Germanics. The English are from Anglo-Saxons. So again, where is the problem?
Oh yes. The English are 100% Angles, Saxons and Jutes; the Irish, Scottish and Welsh are 100% Briton. You certainly know your history alrighty.

[Trog]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_9FPkhQ1I4Tg/TSkBCcOd9-I/AAAAAAAABSM/Eh0Rp9JGktg/s1600/Blue-Bottle-Beached-%2528Morgan.jpg
To be fair, that is more or less the way I picture Mary to look like :p

What, an aboriginie's discarded condom?

[Bridie]

Perhaps you should fine tune your Sarcasm Detectors a bit :p

That would require a degree of intelligence. I wouldn't get my hopes up if I were you.

[Trog]

That would require a degree of intelligence. I wouldn't get my hopes up if I were you.

Right you, back to yer knitting.

[GeistFaust]

This could go on all night by the looks of it what else should we discuss.

[Hess]

What, an aboriginie's discarded condom?

Rather unflattering, yes, but I've always considered myself a realist above all

[Bridie]

Right you, back to yer knitting.Well, at least you have entertainment value. :icon_wink:

[GeistFaust]

Here is a good read on Celtics and Germanics from a PH.D. http://orvillejenkins.com/peoples/germanicceltic.html

[Hess]

Right you, back to yer knitting.

Mary is a very good knitter, in case you didn't know. Here's a pic of her in action
http://www.visualphotos.com/photo/2x4574846/african_girl_knitting_bld073298.jpg

[Logan]

Mary is a very good knitter, in case you didn't know. Here's a pic of her in action
http://www.visualphotos.com/photo/2x4574846/african_girl_knitting_bld073298.jpg

Looks a bit more French/Croatain

[Óttar]

My father's side of the family is Irish, German and Welsh. My Y DNA is I1, which can only mean one thing: medieval Irish women liked Viking boabie.

@Os, Yanks aren't the only ones with a shit handle on British Isles history it seems.

[Hess]

Looks a bit more French/Croatain

indeed, that's a very Typical look for Croatian/French mixes. She looks like she could be related to me, in fact

[poiuytrewq0987]

The English is a mixture of Celtic and Germanic similar to Germans. The Scots are more Germanic than Celtic these days. The Welsh are more Celtic than Germanic though heavily influenced by their former Roman rulers. The Irish are mostly Celtic but Germanic influence brought on by former English rulers can be seen.

[Mercury]

I've always assumed eastern England has more of an Anglo-Saxon heritage, while the western part remains more Celtic.

[Sikeliot]

I've always assumed eastern England has more of an Anglo-Saxon heritage, while the western part remains more Celtic.

Me too especially given that I often find western England to have more Iberian and French looking people, while the east has more Germanic types.

[Apocales]

Last I checked England isn't very English anymore, no use for brother wars in modern times, clean up our own houses first.

[Libertas]

I've always assumed eastern England has more of an Anglo-Saxon heritage, while the western part remains more Celtic.

Roughly true.:thumb001:

[supergiovane]

everyone wants to be british. must be the Beatlemania.

[El Palleter]

What, an aboriginie's discarded condom?It's funny. My great-aunt had a character very similar to yours (though she never mentioned condoms etc).

My grandfather would say that it was related to her being a spinster and childless bitter old woman


Mary is a very good knitter, in case you didn't know. Here's a pic of her in action
http://www.visualphotos.com/photo/2x4574846/african_girl_knitting_bld073298.jpgDo you get paid for being the official trash poster of the forums?

You shouldn't. Your trash is of the worst quality

[Trog]

The Scots are more Germanic than Celtic these days.

Take it from a Scot - YER WRANG. When Germanics were running around like spear-chuckers from the Pacific, we had set up monasteries and centres of learning. We are not Germanic at all, we have fire in our bellies, not some cold, lank attitude to life. That says it all.

[Trog]

It's funny. My great-aunt had a character very similar to yours (though she never mentioned condoms etc).

My grandfather would say that it was related to her being a spinster and childless bitter old woman




You should learn not to take things so personal in life. You'll get on a lot better.

[Trog]

My father's side of the family is Irish, German and Welsh. My Y DNA is I1, which can only mean one thing: medieval Irish women liked Viking boabie.

@Os, Yanks aren't the only ones with a shit handle on British Isles history it seems.


The Vikings raped, slaughtered and pillaged Ireland and Scotland.

Incidentally Doug McDonald has classified me as 100% Irish.

[Bridie]

We are not Germanic at all, we have fire in our bellies, not some cold, lank attitude to life. That says it all.Germans don't tend to have lank attitudes to life. I think they're among the sternest, most anally retentive, overreactive, harsh people on the planet. Only the Japs can compare to them.

[Hess]

It's funny. My great-aunt had a character very similar to yours (though she never mentioned condoms etc).

My grandfather would say that it was related to her being a spinster and childless bitter old woman

Do you get paid for being the official trash poster of the forums?

You shouldn't. Your trash is of the worst quality

You see, it's times like this where you give me no choice but to believe that you're a humorless prude who's eager to take offense at any perceived slight.

If you bothered to read any of my other 1500 posts, you would know that i contribute much more than "trash", especially in the taxonomy section.

Perhaps it would be best to calm down and stop taking everything so personally?

And by the way, this lecture in trash posting is pretty rich coming from you when your whole activity on this forum seems to be hounding and personally attacking those who fail to appreciate the perfection and infallibility of Spain (Star Valley, Me, Alzo Zero)

[El Palleter]

You see, it's times like this where you give me no choice but to believe that you're a humorless prude who's eager to take offense at any perceived slight.I love humour. But you can't seriously pretend that there is anything humorous about you


If you bothered to read any of my other 1500 posts, you would know that i contribute much more than "trash", especially in the taxonomy section.Like I said, trash :)


Perhaps it would be best to calm down and stop taking everything so personally?It's nothing personal

I'd say the same about anyone abusing vulgarity as a cheap alternative to humour

[Hess]

I love humour. But you can't seriously pretend that there is anything humorous about you

I am sorry that you don't find me funny, but guess what? Many others do- I get rep comments for it all the time. If you don't find me funny, that's perfectly fine with me. In sure you're not the only one with that opinion- however, I don't see why you had to confront me about it and start this unnecessary discussion. It really goes miles to show how sensitive you are.


Like I said, trash :)

All of my 1500 posts? All of then trash? Alright man, whatever you say. I would go and show you my many useful contributions in topics like taxonomy, history, politics, members pictures, etc. But I don't think that would change your mind- it's pretty clear that you're hot headed to a fault and have a huge chip on your shoulder.

[/QUOTE]I'd say the same about anyone abusing vulgarity as a cheap alternative to humour[/QUOTE]

That's your opinion though. Luckily for me, you don't get to decide what vulgarity is and isn't.

If you don't like my posts, you can just choose not to read them! Put me on your ignore list, please.

Like I said before , I have no problem with you or Spain (I actually quite like it) and I dont want any trouble. I don't want to argue with you anymore, it's quite an useless endeavor. If you think that all my posts are trash, I ask to do what an adult would do and put me on your ignore list :)

[El Palleter]

I am sorry that you don't find me funnyStop feeling sorry for yourself and do something about it.


but guess what? Many others do- I get rep comments for it all the time.I don't suppose that you're aware of how pathetic is that comment ?


If you don't find me funny, that's perfectly fine with me. In sure you're not the only one with that opinion- however, I don't see why you had to confront me about it and start this unnecessary discussion. It really goes miles to show how sensitive you are.Probably because you're posting the same stupid (yes, retarded) rubbish in every other thread where discussions are taking place, adding nothing but worthless waste.


All of my 1500 posts? All of then trash?That's pretty much what taxonomy is about. Entertaining? maybe. Productive? no, worthless.


Alright man, whatever you say. I would go and show you my many useful contributions in topics like taxonomy, history, politics, members pictures, etc.That's a form of asiatic torture that I hadn't heard of before


But I don't think that would change your mind- it's pretty clear that you're hot headed to a fault and have a huge chip on your shoulder.Did you learn that on the internet?

If I got a cent for every idiot who uses those words as replacements for actual arguments, I'd be immensely rich.


That's your opinion though. Luckily for me, you don't get to decide what vulgarity is and isn't.Fortunately for the world, a child of bolsheviks with nazi wet dreams doesn't get to decide what things like humour or vulgarity are.

At least for now. Unfortunately the world keeps changing ever to worse.


If you don't like my posts, you can just choose not to read them! Put me on your ignore list, please. I never choose to ignore things even when they are as sad and pathetic.

Feel free to put me in your ignore list, since you've suggested it


Like I said before , I have no problem with you or Spain (I actually quite like it) and I dont want any trouble.What's this got to do with Spain ?


I don't want to argue with you anymore, it's quite an useless endeavor. If you think that all my posts are trash, I ask to do what an adult would do and put me on your ignore list :)How's that an adult thing to do ?

[Peasant]

Take yer bitchfight elsewhere. :rage

[Treffie]

Anymore twattery, I'm deleting posts.

[Olavsson]

Anyone reading your previous posts in this thread could be forgiven for mistaking your point to be that the English share a close, but often forgotten or denied, kinship with the Germans by way of some ancient Germanic tribal genetic input into the populations of Great Britain. In fact, sometimes the English are more Germanic than the Germans themselves. (I'm sure the Germans will love you for the latter. :p)

Well, I just had to break in here.

Being of Germanic descent does NOT equal being of German nationality/ethnicity!

Scandinavians are for example pre-dominantly descended from the ancient Germanic tribes, and Germans are in no way more Germanic.
The only reason for this common misunderstanding is the name; German and Germanic sounds very similar.
'Germanic' is in reality a broader European term in the same way as Celtic or Slavic.

And yes, the English people have got their fair share of Germanic ancestry through the Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Vikings and Normans.

[Hess]

Well, I just had to break in here.

Being of Germanic descent does NOT equal being of German nationality/ethnicity!

Scandinavians are for example pre-dominantly descended from the ancient Germanic tribes, and Germans are in no way more Germanic.
The only reason for this common misunderstanding is the name; German and Germanic sounds very similar.
'Germanic' is in reality a broader European term in the same way as Celtic or Slavic.

And yes, the English people have got their fair share of Germanic ancestry through the Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Vikings and Normans.

I think, if anything, Germans are less Germanic than Scandinavians because of Germany's location in Central Europe. Germany's genepool has been influenced by France, the Czech Republic, and other non Germanic countries

[Allenson]

For Fuck's sake, Yanks, the British Isles isn't the idiotic 'goodie baddie' situation that you seem to think it is. We've all been happily fucking each other for centuries, despite the wars and so forth. Now and then some ignorant fool here will forget that part of it, and join in with your black/white simplistic dualism, but this is a blatantly superficial way of looking at British affairs.

Hey wait a minute here--what Yanks?

Luckily for me, my inner Pict and inner Angle seem to get along pretty well. :thumb001:

[Bridie]

Well, I just had to break in here.

Being of Germanic descent does NOT equal being of German nationality/ethnicity!

The only reason for this common misunderstanding is the name; German and Germanic sounds very similar.
No, the reason is the definition of the word "Germanic"....

Ger·man·ic (jr-mnk)
adj.
1.
a. Of, relating to, or characteristic of Germany or its people, language, or culture.
Anyway, I don't know if you noticed, but in the quote of mine that you were addressing, I said spoke of "kinship", not "equation".



Scandinavians are for example pre-dominantly descended from the ancient Germanic tribes, and Germans are in no way more Germanic.Scandinavians may very well be, but the British are not.



'Germanic' is in reality a broader European term in the same way as Celtic or Slavic.Only when speaking of language and and to a lesser extent, culture. What people have been speaking of here is genetic make-up and ethnicity. (Obviously ethnicity is comprised of much more than just language and some cultural similarities.)

I argue that Britain is Germanic in as far as that English is a Germanic language. But that is its limitation. Otherwise, the British are just British... English, Scottish, Welsh.

No need for false affiliations with foreigners.




And yes, the English people have got their fair share of Germanic ancestry through the Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Vikings and NormansAnother subscriber to the "native Britons were wiped out in Britain" theory I see. :rolleyes:

Any way you look at it, its not very realistic.

[Olavsson]

No, the reason is the definition of the word "Germanic"....

Your definition is wrong! :rolleyes:


Scandinavians may very well be, but the British are not.

The British are Celto-Germanic. Some of you are pre-dominantly Germanic as well, though, due to stronger preservation of Anglo-Saxon blood.


Only when speaking of language and and to a lesser extent, culture. What people have been speaking of here is genetic make-up and ethnicity. (Obviously ethnicity is comprised of much more than just language and some cultural similarities.)

Not ethnicity. My ethnicity is Norwegian/Scandinavian, while my meta-ethnicity is Germanic, with some minor Celtic, Slavic and Finnic influence.


I argue that Britain is Germanic in as far as that English is a Germanic language. But that is its limitation. Otherwise, the British are just British... English, Scottish, Welsh.

How do you think the Germanic language got there in the first place? ;)
Germanic migration... And that's still in your blood.
Why do you deny your ancestors? I surely don't deny mine!


No need for false affiliations with foreigners.

I've got strong Germanic ancestry from back in the day, does that make me less "Norwegian" and more "German"? That's a ridiculous claim.


Another subscriber to the "native Britons were wiped out in Britain" theory I see.

They weren't totally wiped out - many of them were assimilated!
But still - some areas of England are undeniably more Anglo-Saxon than "ancient British."

Modern Germanic-descended folks have got both genetic influence from old stone-age Europeans, AND later Indo-European influence.
Does that mean we do not have Indo-European blood at all, and that the Indo-Europeans did not have an important role in forming our language, our culture and our Folk?

[Allenson]

I guess I'm not sure what the argument is here? I don't see how anyone can state with a straight face that Anglo-Saxons didn't have an enormous influence on what is now England, and even southern Scotland. Language, archeology and now even genetics bare this out. No, they didn't completely overrun this island, that is very very clear. But what is also plain to see is that they, for better or worse, settled rather thickly in the southern two-thirds of Britain, named thousands of geographic locales in their own tongue and of course donated their laguage too.

I reckon the arguement is the degree to which they did all this. That's certainly harder to sift out but I would guess that over the course of A-S settlement of England, the number of settlers would be in the hundreds of thousands.

The placename argument has always held a lot of ground in my eyes. The saturation of Anglo-Saxon place names (-ingham, -ington to name a couple) is pretty darn thorough in eastern England. Placenames can be hard to dislodge, even for invaders, unless their numbers are hefty. A parallel can perhaps be drawn from here in North America. Without doing a scientific study, I would guess that there is a higher percentage of Native American placenames here in North America, when compared to the whole, than there are Celtic placenames in much of England and look what happened to the Indians.

It's also interesting to note that many of the Native American placenames that survive here are of rivers & lakes. From what I understand of Britain, it is also the river names that largely retain their Celtic flavor and did so even after the coming of the Anglo-Saxons. Just a thought.... :icon_neutral:

[Óttar]

The Vikings raped, slaughtered and pillaged Ireland and Scotland.
I doubt you know anything about Norse settlements beyond a simplistic view you got from a Celtic nationalist school. The Vikings built Dublin. :coffee:

[Osweo]

I doubt you know anything about Norse settlements beyond a simplistic view you got from a Celtic nationalist school. The Vikings built Dublin. :coffee:

:D Yup.

And, if I recall correctly, Trog's Scotch ancestors (ignoring her immigrant side) are from one of those Catholic enclaves in the Highlands and Islands. Basically, anyway north of Dumbarton and west of Fort William is going to be riddled with Norse blood. :lol:

I suggest she looks up Somerled and learns a thing or two...

[Troll's Puzzle]

Culture is decided by those experiencing it.

How long would an Italian calling Englishmen, Cornishmen, Scottishmen and Welshmen 'Germanic' survive is the ultimate test.


Ok, let's pretend for a minute that the English are Germanic. So what?

The English will still not be part of some wider Germanic brotherhood... they will still not identify with the Germans.... they will still not sympathise with the Germans...

the stoy has now hit the website of the Daily Wail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2005829/Gott-Himmel-Geneticists-reveal-50-Britons-German.html), (Britains #2 selling newspaper) and the top rated comments (all with over 200 positive votes ;)) are:

#2 "How is this news?" ... (Craig from Sheffield)
#3 "I thought this was already well known?" - (C Sykes, Blackpool)
#4 "Since when is this news? I remember learning about England being invaded by the Angles, Saxons and Jutes from what is now north Germany when I was at school 45 years ago..." (Louise from 'England')
#5 "Makes the First and Second world wars even more tragic than they are already" - (Stephen Glover, Manchester)

:clap2:

and the #1 voted comment...
"So how come Brits never get their towels on sunbeds before us?" - (Helmut Schmelzer, Tittling, Germany)

:rolleyes:

[Graham]

http://www.spiegel.de/images/image-226190-galleryV9-fwgo.jpg

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,768706,00.html

I wonder how Aberdeenshire shows up more yellow. The angles were defeated by the Picts in Battle of Dun Nechtain up there. Here's another recent map, R1a1-M17 Y Dna

http://wwwimg.bbc.co.uk/programmes/i/512xn/ab00f130001fdab93758318bd15e1f467ea8e5c3.gif
The frequencies of the M17 'Viking' Y chromosome group are shown across the British Isles using pie charts. Up to 3000 samples were used to create this map.

[Allenson]

#2 "How is this news?" ... (Craig from Sheffield)
#3 "I thought this was already well known?" - (C Sykes, Blackpool)
#4 "Since when is this news? I remember learning about England being invaded by the Angles, Saxons and Jutes from what is now north Germany when I was at school 45 years ago..." (Louise from 'England')


^ Good point--as I was reading the article, a couple times it almost read like this was breaking news. I mean, we even learn about the Anglo-Saxons here in our retarded school system. ;)

Graham--they might be looking at haplogroup 'I' clades as well as the U106 flavour of R1b which has very high concentrations on both sides of the North Sea.... Just a hunch.

[Osweo]

I wonder how Aberdeenshire shows up more yellow. The angles were defeated by the Picts in Battle of Dun Nechtain up there. Here's another recent map, R1a1-M17 Y Dna
Old Pictland comes up in older discussions on 'Germanicity', even before the genetics was even heard of. The English spoken there, for one thing, is of such a peculiar nature, that it has been suggested that plenty of Angles DID stay on there after Ecgfrith's defeat, but under Pictish rule. :shrug:

Going really far back, nineteenth century scholars speculated on the anthropology indicating some old links across the North Sea, from before Viking times. :shrugs:


http://wwwimg.bbc.co.uk/programmes/i/512xn/ab00f130001fdab93758318bd15e1f467ea8e5c3.gif
The frequencies of the M17 'Viking' Y chromosome group are shown across the British Isles using pie charts. Up to 3000 samples were used to create this map.
Interesting that Man shows so sstrongly. I am surprised that the testing in Yorkshire doesn't. Perhaps they weren't careful enough to get people without recentish internal migrants in their pedigree?

Or is the central point focussed on Teesside? I.e. an area of Northumbrian survival, like the rest of Bernicia?

[Amapola]

I argue that Britain is Germanic in as far as that English is a Germanic language. But that is its limitation. Otherwise, the British are just British... English, Scottish, Welsh.

:clap:

Not wanting to add fuel to the flames, :tongue , I conccur, I don't see the British as Germanic more than in the meta-ethnicity waters (language... ) just like I could see Spaniards Romance. Other than that, their pre-Germanic stuff, culture and the whole "sense of them" I have doesn't sound Germanic (term that actually deserves a whole thread to be defined) to me at all, rather very distinct, peripheral and "of its own". I see Iberia under this glasses too. Joining a Germanic label simply doesn't do justice to these peculiar people, but if they feel better doing it, be it so. It's all human constructs and debatable. I would not label myself Roman (and carefuly) as an Iberian, except in religion, because of the peculiarities of my people and the "basic differences" amongst them and the other romance speakers. I don't understand the need to be wrapped up by an artificial and forced pan-Germanic or pan-whatever label or feeling that "they are our friends", while they are not. Money is everybody's friend instead.


No need for false affiliations with foreigners.

This is a good summary of what I want to mean. No need for romantic and false affiliations.

[Allenson]

Going really far back, nineteenth century scholars speculated on the anthropology indicating some old links across the North Sea, from before Viking times.

Your buddy Moffat discusses this in the recent book on Scottish genetics and of course Tacitus refers to the Caledonians as such:


The reddish hair and large limbs of the Caledonians pro-claim a German origin

Now, I'm not going to say that they were Germanic but it might point to contacts across the North Sea. I'm currently reading a book called A New History of the Picts by Stuart McHardy and he discusses this very subject.

Even the L21 variety of R1b (M222-) that Graham and I belong to and which has been postulated as a Pictish marker by Moffat & Wilson shows up across the North Sea in Norway and other places.... There's a Google map of this and I can't seem to find it, damn it!

I should add that I'm not trying to take anything away from Celtic Britain or to Germanicize everyone like they do elsewhere. I'm just pointing out that things are often a little more complex than some like them to be.

[Graham]

Graham--they might be looking at haplogroup 'I' clades as well as the U106 flavour of R1b which has very high concentrations on both sides of the North Sea.... Just a hunch.U106! is that not a nazi U boat, whats going on here :confused:

In the north-east of Scotland there's no Germanic settlement recorded other than folk coming in from the south later on. So this U106 could be pre-Anglo or afterwards?

[Óttar]

No need for false affiliations with foreigners.

No need for romantic and false affiliations.
Romantic affiliations? You mean like 15th century medieval French romances about King Arthur and the Britons? :rolleyes:

Just because the royal family dropped the name Saxe-Coburg Gotha doesn't all of a sudden make English people glorified Welshmen in medieval French clothing.

[Allenson]

U106! is that not a nazi U boat, whats going on here :confused:

In the north-east of Scotland there's no Germanic settlement recorded other than folk coming in from the south later on. So this U106 could be pre-Anglo or afterwards?

Probably long before the Angles et al came to your island--although they probably brought some U106 reinforcements with them. ;)

Here's the present distribution:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/THYYn0iOp2I/AAAAAAAACiw/GTn5liL2F68/s1600/u106.jpg

[Logan]

These recent studies are news as they refute a large part of the theories of Brian Sykes and Stephen Oppenheimer as well as many others.

The news is the realization that, the Germania of Tactius contained a mixture of people as is shown by Ydna studies.

[Amapola]

Romantic affiliations? You mean like 14th century medieval French romances about King Arthur and the Britons? :rolleyes:

Just because the royal family dropped the name Saxe-Coburg Gotha doesn't all of a sudden make English people glorified Welshmen in medieval French clothing.

You like it or not, I don't see the English as "Germanic" but as something else which is much better and complex to explain that a simple label "Germanic". Believe what it makes you feel better :thumb001:

Ah!!!

ÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑÑ
:tongue

[Amapola]

La Espa Ñ o la

DE9DDHXH064
:p

[Aviane]

From my experience of the MidlandsI certainly would agree that there is strong germanic genes ,
but all together English population could be called the less
germanic of all germanic countries witch are :
Netherland , Germany , Austria , Danemark , Norway , Sweden .

English population is a blend were I would say Keltics are dominant ,
then come Germans .

The Midlands which I visted I actually saw some that looked like you where discribing but I think still on average or as a whole they look a bit more on the Celtic side.


The 5 to 8% of my English family lines were full with French Normans that is a lot of them were prominent families that came to England and settled among the early colonist. So perhaps my genealogical understanding of the Britain has been very narrow since most of them were Captains in the military, Aristocrats, or Knighted. The Upper class look of the English is more French Norman inspired than Anglo Saxon influenced.

The Upper class are indeed Norman well mostly anyways but not only in England but other parts of Britain.



The "upper-class look" of the English toffs is a result of inbreeding, mate.

There is no typical "French Norman look", since the Normans belonged to the same ethnic group as the Scandinavians and Anglo-Saxons.

The Normans are as Germanic as Scandinavians and Anglo Saxons originally except that the former is a bit more dilluted.


True but if they have a first name like Nigel, Reginald, or Robert most likely they are more Norman inspired names. I agree with what you have said and know the Norman influences were mostly among the upper nobility and the land gentry. The point is the Normans have had influences on Britain more than some people think primarily because they like to inbred a lot.

You can find Norman surnames scattered around Britain.

Like Lovell, Neville, Fiennes, Bruce, Burke etc.

For examples:

http://www.gaminggeeks.org/Resources/KateMonk/England-Medieval/Surnames.htm

http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/irename2.htm



I don't know why you would insult Trogs knowledge of Scottish history it seems like she knows what she is talking about. If anything the British on here who are contesting her seem to be at fault. I would take Trogs side anyway come on bring it on.

People who are from a country or island like here should be the ones sometimes to give their own view on history but at the same time others who are very experienced at least should give their own side too as long as they are trustful.

[Osweo]

I don't see the British as Germanic more than in the meta-ethnicity waters (language... ) just like I could see Spaniards Romance. Other than that, their pre-Germanic stuff, culture and the whole "sense of them" I have doesn't sound Germanic (term that actually deserves a whole thread to be defined) to me at all, rather very distinct, peripheral and "of its own".
You're missing the point, mi Vida. Only the stupidest of us say we're only Germanic. Most who are aware of such matters opt for 'Celto-Germanic'.

Some in the thread want to rob us of this PART of ourselves, but this is absurd, as the Engle and Seaxe gave us the very words we use to explain our lives and experiences to ourselves inside our heads.

There is a superb quotation, I think from an Irish poet or writer, but I forget who.... :rage I've been searching for ages! In summary, somebody asked him his feelings about using a 'foreign' (i.e. non Gaelic) language in his work. His answer was rather like this;
"How can the English language be foreign to me? Through this language I have lived my life. In it I have loved, laughed, sang and prayed."
(Does anybody recognise the idea!?? It's killing me that I can't find the actual words!)

If an Irishman can say that, how much more important is the Germanic to an Englishman?


It's all human constructs and debatable.
ROJO talk!!! :nono:


In the north-east of Scotland there's no Germanic settlement recorded other than folk coming in from the south later on. So this U106 could be pre-Anglo or afterwards?
Seems almost likelyish that some (Proto-) Norskers sailed over before Roman times... Almost impossible that there wasn't the odd landfall, but whether it was anything more is sadly a historical event lost to oblivion.

You like it or not, I don't see the English as "Germanic" but as something else which is much better and complex to explain that a simple label "Germanic". Believe what it makes you feel better :thumb001:
Being dutiful to my ancestors makes me feel much better, gracias! :p

[gandalf]

When I wrote Midlands I was thinking around Repton ,
witch , if recall well , is the heart of a Danish settlement and kingdom .

From what I saw about England it is clear that there is more germanic genes
in England than in France , because France was already more populated ,
so germanic tribes , Franks , Burgondians , Wisigoths , Normans and few Saxons , have been more diluted .

( About 15 millions of Gauls around the Roman conquest )

[Beorn]

Phew! It is amazing how much shit can fly when mouths are left wide open.

In a world where the son of Irish immigrants can play a part so well in Eastenders, and another can lead other "Englishmen" into drunken cages with his group called the EDL, and where a Welsh singer with his silky dark complexion can be thought of as typically Welsh but has so much English ancestry; to all the way over to Scotland where Lowland Englishmen are now in agreement with Highlander En..uh?...Gaels about the political direction of the nation state known as Scotland....and, uh?...I suppose NI has Gerry Adams with his English surname....

It tells us one thing: Germanic, Celtic, Norse, a.s.f is a load of BULLSHIT!!!

The thread title states that 'Britain is more Germanic than it thinks', yeah, it does, because most people couldn't give a shit. It's more divided by that and to hell with some silly genetic aspect. WTF is "Germanic genes" and "Celtic genes" anyway?

[Troll's Puzzle]

Phew! It is amazing how much shit can fly when mouths are left wide open.

In a world where the son of Irish immigrants can play a part so well in Eastenders, and another can lead other "Englishmen" into drunken cages with his group called the EDL, and where a Welsh singer with his silky dark complexion can be thought of as typically Welsh but has so much English ancestry; to all the way over to Scotland where Lowland Englishmen are now in agreement with Highlander En..uh?...Gaels about the political direction of the nation state known as Scotland....and, uh?...I suppose NI has Gerry Adams with his English surname....

It tells us one thing: Germanic, Celtic, Norse, a.s.f is a load of BULLSHIT!!!

The thread title states that 'Britain is more Germanic than it thinks', yeah, it does, because most people couldn't give a shit. It's more divided by that and to hell with some silly genetic aspect. WTF is "Germanic genes" and "Celtic genes" anyway?

we can do away with the 'Cornish' subforum, then :)

[Aviane]

You see, it's times like this where you give me no choice but to believe that you're a humorless prude who's eager to take offense at any perceived slight.

If you bothered to read any of my other 1500 posts, you would know that i contribute much more than "trash", especially in the taxonomy section.

Perhaps it would be best to calm down and stop taking everything so personally?

And by the way, this lecture in trash posting is pretty rich coming from you when your whole activity on this forum seems to be hounding and personally attacking those who fail to appreciate the perfection and infallibility of Spain (Star Valley, Me, Alzo Zero)

He always is like this it makes me wonder about some of his kind are really like this, man he must live in some kind of boring world.

He takes everything personal becuase he suffers from paranoia and probably has a real complex too.

I don't understand it but I have witnessed this myself on topics to with him and his crew and they do attack people who don't agree to their interests but this isn't the first time for me either.

I seen it in other forums too (some of which i've joined as well).


Take yer bitchfight elsewhere. :rage

NOOOOO, lets make them continue. :D


Romantic affiliations? You mean like 15th century medieval French romances about King Arthur and the Britons? :rolleyes:

Just because the royal family dropped the name Saxe-Coburg Gotha doesn't all of a sudden make English people glorified Welshmen in medieval French clothing.

Heck the royal family does have have Germanic connections which go back to Schleswig Holstein I think.

[Barreldriver]

Why english is the most latinized germanic language?

Why is there parts of Latin in any Germanic language then, not just English? Perhaps it's because of Christianity, Latin vocabulary for a time was necessary for those wanting to read a Bible, get enough people learning aspects of Latin alongside their native tongue and eventually crossovers are bound to happen. Similar happenings can be seen even today with American English dialects.

[Beorn]

we can do away with the 'Cornish' subforum, then :)

Why? Is Cornish not an ethnicity now?

[El Palleter]

Your buddy Moffat discusses this in the recent book on Scottish genetics and of course Tacitus refers to the Caledonians as suchRight. Tacitus wrote that "The ruddy hair and lusty limbs of the Caledonians indicate a German extraction." Funnily enough he next writes that "the Silures were at first a colony of Iberians is concluded, not without probability, from the olive tincture of the skin and the curl of the hair".

So far, Britain was Germanic in the north and Iberic in the south? We'll see..

He continues naming the reasons why the Silures would be Iberians, saying that's "the situation of the country, so convenient to the coast of Spain."

Next he says that "On the opposite side to Gaul the inhabitants resemble their neighbours of the continent." And a few lines later he says that "it is possible that a colony from Gaul took possession of a country so inviting by its proximity."

What do you make of this? That Britain was Germanic in the north, Iberic in the West, and Gallic in the East?

Or rather that Tacitus had a funny way to describe peoples who he had never seen, as it was the case.

Oh, and the Iberians inhabited the easter coastal areas of the Iberian Peninsula, by the Mediterranean. Not at all "convenient" to reach the Atlantic lands of the Silures.

Yet another question is how often are red haired people seen in Germany. I haven't seen many. So far none. Not saying that they don't exist though.

More on the Caledonians


There is, however!, a distinction between the way Ptolemy refers to the Caledones and the manner in which Tacitus, and other early writers, mention Caledonia. To Ptolemy the Caledones are a people, but to Tacitus Caledonia is a region, apparently indeed the whole of Britain north of the Forth-Clyde isthmus. Tacitus refers to Caledoniam incolentes (Agricola 25) or Caledoniam habitantium (Agricola 11). This careful avoidance of Caledones needs to be explained. Furthermore, when this tribe is mentioned by Ptolemy, it is carefully distinguished from the Decantae and other northern peoples on the one hand and from the Vacomagi, Venicones and Taexali on the other. Caledones therefore cannot be explained as a group name for these peoples. They must be a distinct people. When Jackson (1955, 135) asserts that Caledonia 'cannot be proved to be Celtic and may therefore very possibly be pre-Celtic' it seems reasonable to suggest that the pre-Celtic Caledones, who had given the country its name, had been pushed back by Celtic invaders - Venicones, Vacomagi and Taexali - so that while in 'popular' usage Caledonia survived, the tribe of the Caledones sank into comparative insignificance (cf Mann 1974, 36). They thus may well have been restricted to the more barren lands of the Great Glen, and possibly the upper glens.

Ptolemy, Tacitus and the tribes of northern Britain
http://www.tarbat-discovery.co.uk/Learning%20Files/Ptolemy,%20Tacitus%20and%20the%20Tribes%20of%20Nor th%20Britain.pdf

[Aviane]

When I wrote Midlands I was thinking around Repton ,
witch , if recall well , is the heart of a Danish settlement and kingdom .

From what I saw about England it is clear that there is more germanic genes
in England than in France , because France was already more populated ,
so germanic tribes , Franks , Burgondians , Wisigoths , Normans and few Saxons , have been more diluted .

( About 15 millions of Gauls around the Roman conquest )

I see what you saying now you are meaning that part of the Midlands.

I thought it was more like the Anglo Saxons who settled it.

I don't deny that there is Germanic genes but the people also look Celtic also in England but I'm also from here in England and I was born in here, so I should have at least some idea in what people here look like.

[Peasant]

Or is the central point focussed on Teesside? I.e. an area of Northumbrian survival, like the rest of Bernicia?

Due to Middlesbroughs massive expanse in the 19th century from a small hamlet I guess it could be skewed easily by certain families?

I think a lot/a few of the areas are named from one time Norse settlements the town engulfed though.

Also...

Middlesbrough in the 1851 census was second only to Liverpool in the percentage of Irish in its population so perhaps that is the connection. Another influential group in Teesside towns were the Welsh as they were also in Liverpool.
http://www.englandsnortheast.co.uk/Conversation.html

And I don't know how accurate the Viking stuff is that blokes written about.

[Osweo]

Or rather that Tacitus had a funny way to describe peoples who he had never seen, as it was the case.
Tacitus's informer was his very own father in law, Agricola, who had actually CONQUERED and governed much of Britain, living here for several years and intimately involved in our affairs.

In any case, there will surely have been British slaves knocking around in Rome for Tacitus to have a look at and make his own mind up on what his Mrs's dad was telling him.

[Amapola]

[QUOTE]You're missing the point, mi Vida. Only the stupidest of us say we're only Germanic. Most who are aware of such matters opt for 'Celto-Germanic'.
No, no, bicho malo :P it is you that is missing the point! actually I agree on that your meta-etnicity is Germanic, your ethnicity though I would call "English" and I don't see English as Germanic but as something much more complex and particular than that.

I quote myself


rather very distinct, peripheral and "of its own".

a Germanic label simply doesn't do justice to these peculiar people
"only",


we use to explain our lives and experiences to ourselves inside our heads.
Exactly, that's why I said you have a Germanic meta-etnicity just like ours is Romance. But appart from that, British are Germanic and Spaniards are Latin , period? Crazy! absurd! oversimplification! :eek: We are people of our own.

You can share the language with many people, it's significative and important but it is NOT everything. It is not the right moment to speak about languages as identity tools like some do ;) and ayway we don't even share the languages but the root of our languages!


ROJO talk!!! :nono:

Los rojos didn't create pangermanism! did they? :p


Being dutiful to my ancestors makes me feel much better, gracias! :p
That was not for you but for the Battle-Swine. :D De nada.

[El Palleter]

Tacitus's informer was his very own father in law, Agricola, who had actually CONQUERED and governed much of Britain, living here for several years and intimately involved in our affairs.So you are saying that Britain was Gallic in the East, Iberic in the West, and Germanic in the far North?

It looks to me as if all that Tacitus wanted was to tell Agricola's life and that part would be just ornamental.

[Logan]

[QUOTE=The Crow;443834]Phew! It is amazing how much shit can fly when mouths are left wide open.

In a world where the son of Irish immigrants can play a part so well in Eastenders, and another can lead other "Englishmen" into drunken cages with his group called the EDL, and where a Welsh singer with his silky dark complexion can be thought of as typically Welsh but has so much English ancestry; to all the way over to Scotland where Lowland Englishmen are now in agreement with Highlander En..uh?...Gaels about the political direction of the nation state known as Scotland....and, uh?...I suppose NI has Gerry Adams with his English surname....

It tells us one thing: Germanic, Celtic, Norse, a.s.f is a load of BULLSHIT!!!

The thread title states that 'Britain is more Germanic than it thinks', yeah, it does, because most people couldn't give a shit. It's more divided by that and to hell with some silly genetic aspect. WTF is "Germanic genes" and "Celtic genes" anyway?[/QUOTE

A personal perspective of the present cultural situation. A moment or two below might give meaning to the WTF.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

[Bridie]

Your definition is wrong! :rolleyes:Not my definition. I quoted that definition from an online dictionary. ;)




The British are Celto-Germanic. Some of you are pre-dominantly Germanic as well, though, due to stronger preservation of Anglo-Saxon blood.No one can be sure of the extent of this... let alone you.




Not ethnicity. My ethnicity is Norwegian/Scandinavian, while my meta-ethnicity is Germanic, with some minor Celtic, Slavic and Finnic influence.In the real world, no one uses terms like "meta-ethnicity" to identify themselves.




How do you think the Germanic language got there in the first place? ;)
Germanic migration... And that's still in your blood.
Why do you deny your ancestors? I surely don't deny mine!Not denying them. Just because I likely have a bit of Anglo-Saxon and possibly Norman blood, doesn't make me Germanic. That's all I'm saying.




I've got strong Germanic ancestry from back in the day, does that make me less "Norwegian" and more "German"? That's a ridiculous claim.
It makes you affiliated with the Germans.



They weren't totally wiped out - many of them were assimilated!
But still - some areas of England are undeniably more Anglo-Saxon than "ancient British."Once again, no one, not even archeologists and historians can be sure of this, let alone you.



I guess I'm not sure what the argument is here? I don't see how anyone can state with a straight face that Britons didn't have an enormous influence on what is now England, and even southern Scotland.
Fixed. :thumb001:

The Germanic influence in England already has more than enough recoginition due to the very name "England".

I'm not sure what the argument is either.



You like it or not, I don't see the English as "Germanic" but as something else which is much better and complex to explain that a simple label "Germanic". Believe what it makes you feel better Of course it makes him feel better. He's a Viking! :laugh:



Only the stupidest of us say we're only Germanic. Most who are aware of such matters opt for 'Celto-Germanic'.Only the most stupid of us say identify with terms like "celtic" and "germanic" at all.



we can do away with the 'Cornish' subforum, then The Cornish like to differentiate themselves to the point of being seen independently from the rest of England due to complexes (or the desire for attention).

Having said that, my recent ancestry on my Dad's side is Devonian (and Cornish and Welsh)... I am considering moving to England to start a "Devonian independentist" movement. :p




He always is like this it makes me wonder about some of his kind are really like this, man he must live in some kind of boring world.

He takes everything personal becuase he suffers from paranoia and probably has a real complex too.

I don't understand it but I have witnessed this myself on topics to with him and his crew and they do attack people who don't agree to their interests but this isn't the first time for me either.

I seen it in other forums too (some of which i've joined as well).
I'm sorry... was someone here saying that Chateaubriand takes things too personally? LOL! :D

Cleemont, relax mate. :thumb001:

Considering the unprovoked personal attacks on me in this thread... from being called a "wench from God knows where" to it being said that I look like an aborigine in a used condom (LOL) I can't help but appreciate those who have been kind enough to support me. Ie, Civis Batavi, Hamettan and Chateaubriand. :) Cheers lads. :thumb001:

[Curtis24]

Interesting. I remember back when the genetic contribution of the Germanics was downplayed; but it seems the genetic research has advanced.

[Bridie]

Interesting. I remember back when the genetic contribution of the Germanics was downplayed; but it seems the genetic research has advanced.And then, just around the corner, something else will provide new "proof" of how the British should identify themselves. :rolleyes:

Its all a bit silly if you ask me.

Yes, our history is important, but things need to be kept in perspective and romanticisations should be taken for what they are. Fanciful notions to play with.

[Barreldriver]

So you are saying that Britain was Gallic in the East, Iberic in the West, and Germanic in the far North?

That wouldn't bee too much of a long shot, in Yorkshire there was a tribe called Parisii, coincidentally there's a Parisii tribe in Gaul who lived along the Seine, it has been believed that the two separate branches of Parisii are related deeper than by name and that there was a Gallic aspect in Britain as the two Parisii groups not only shared name but other cultural characteristics i.e. Arras, the Arras culture showing up in Yorkshire, Northern France and Belgium.

Perhaps the Gauls are responsible in part for certain subclades of R-P312 being brought into Britain? After all the highest frequency peak of the group is in modern France around the Paris area and the upper Danube basin according to Myers and others addressing the topic of R1b lineages.

Forgot to mention earlier the Belgae, there were Belgae not only in Gaul but in Southern Britain as well correct?

[Olavsson]

Not my definition. I quoted that definition from an online dictionary. ;)

So that silly online-dictionary you managed to find is an universal truth? :D
You should study some more history. Why not read about the old Germanic tribes? Their descendants don't just live in the modern state named Germany, but also in England, Scandinavia, Iceland, the Netherlands and many other places. These ancient peoples were of course not one single people under one single leader, but various tribes with a similar language and closely related cultures, customs and religion - the Scandinavian god Odinn was for example called Wotan by some of the continental Germanics and Woden by your Saxon forefathers that invaded Britain. ;)
The core-area of the ancient Germanic culture was southern Scandinavia and northern Germany.


No one can be sure of the extent of this... let alone you.

Seriously? Are you denying the Germanic migrations to England? :confused:



In the real world, no one uses terms like "meta-ethnicity" to identify themselves.

In the "real" world, people have even stopped caring about blood and ethnicity!
In Norway, people actually have to say that Negroid africans are just as "Norwegian" as the ethnic Norwegians to not be called a "racist".
I don't think membership of an artificial nation-state makes you part of the Folk. There's something deeper there, and we Norwegians definitely share a close blood-tie to the other Germanic peoples due to shared ancestry.
That doesn't mean we can't have our own ethnic names based on more recent history and ancestry from a certain area, but the blood from the older peoples that shaped our Folk are still running in our veins.



Not denying them. Just because I likely have a bit of Anglo-Saxon and possibly Norman blood, doesn't make me Germanic. That's all I'm saying.

It doesn't make you 100% Germanic, no. But the Germanic heritage from your Anglo-Saxon ancestors are still an important part of what the English are!


It makes you affiliated with the Germans.

Germans are one of the European peoples that the Scandinavians are most closely related to. Check out some genetic maps of Europe!
And I don't see anything wrong with that. Just because I'm Norwegian doesn't mean I'm not EUROPEAN at the same time, you know. Shouldn't be any different with Germanic.



Of course it makes him feel better. He's a Viking! :laugh:

"Viking" was a name for some Northern warriors sailing out to pillage and war during the so-called Viking-age. The "Vikings" were people from various Northern Germanic tribes in Scandinavia. But sure, I wouldn't be surprised if I had at least some ancestry from these warriors and sailors.


Only the most stupid of us say identify with terms like "celtic" and "germanic" at all.

Is it stupid to identify oneself with "European" as well? These are the labels I identify myself with:

Norwegian -> Scandinavian -> Nordic -> Germanic -> European.

[Pallantides]

I think the genetic border between Celts and Germanic populations is sometimes rather fluid.
Identity is something else, even if I might have som Celtic and even Finno-ugric ancestry. My culture, language and identity is Nordic/North Germanic, but the primary identity is Norwegian.
;)

[Olavsson]

I think the genetic border between Celts and Germanic populations is sometimes rather fluid.
Identity is something else, even if I might have som Celtic and even Finno-ugric ancestry. My culture, language and identity is Nordic/North Germanic, but the primary identity is Norwegian.
;)

Yeah, I agree with that. Many of us Norwegians have some ancestry from Celts, Finnics and even Slavonic thralls. But the predominating element is still the Northern Germanic... And of course the ethnic/national identity, that separates us from other closely related Scandinavians.:)

[Trog]

I doubt you know anything about Norse settlements beyond a simplistic view you got from a Celtic nationalist school. The Vikings built Dublin. :coffee:

The simplistic view is when you sum up the entire history of a nation's capital city in one sentence. Dublin was built up with the Normans and didn't establish itself really until the 17th century.

Vikings may have settled there, but they didn't build it up.

[Pallantides]

Before the Saxons and the Norse came to Britian all the native Brits looked like Rowan Atkinson and Tom Jones...:D:D:D

[Olavsson]

Before the Saxons and the Norse came to Britian all the native Brits looked like Rowan Atkinson and Tom Jones...:D:D:D

I'm wondering... The Brits that are trying to deny or trivialize the Germanic (Angles, Saxons, Jutes and so on) expansion to England, what do they think about the Celtic expansion to Britain? Is that native enough, or do they choose to only identify themselves with the really ancient Britains?

[El Palleter]

I'm wondering... The Brits that are trying to deny or trivialize the Germanic (Angles, Saxons, Jutes and so on) expansion to England, what do they think about the Celtic expansion to Britain? Is that native enough, or do they choose to only identify themselves with the really ancient Britains?By the same token applied to celticness they'll probably also deny kinship with the people of the central Anatolian plains of modern Turkey.

[El Palleter]

Before the Saxons and the Norse came to Britian all the native Brits looked like Rowan Atkinson and Tom Jones...:D:D:DAnd after they all look like Matt Lucas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matt_Lucas)?

[Bridie]

So that silly online-dictionary you managed to find is an universal truth? :D
Whether or not there are any universal truths at all is a matter for debate, but that has no bearing on language, since the most widely accepted definition of a word in any given language constitutes... wait for it.... a definition. ;)

Perhaps if the dictionary entry that I quoted had been written by an internet Germanicist in the know :wink the definition would have been quite different. But unfortunately, we have to bear with that annoying aspect to life, called reality, every now and then. :(




Seriously? Are you denying the Germanic migrations to England? :confused:The fact that you've asked me this confirms my suspicions that you've either not read my posts properly or you've not understood them at all.




"Viking" was a name for some Northern warriors sailing out to pillage and war during the so-called Viking-age. The "Vikings" were people from various Northern Germanic tribes in Scandinavia. But sure, I wouldn't be surprised if I had at least some ancestry from these warriors and sailors.
The reference was made to that American member, Ottar or something, not you. Have a look at his profile.



Is it stupid to identify oneself with "European" as well?It is yes, but that's a matter for another debate.




The simplistic view is when you sum up the entire history of a nation's capital city in one sentence.First intelligent thing you've said in this thread. I am in shock.

Ironic that it comes from someone who implied just yesterday that all of England is 100% Anglo-Saxon Germanic and all of Ireland, Wales and Scotland are 100% Celtic Briton.




By the same token applied to celticness they'll probably also deny kinship with the people of the central Anatolian plains of modern Turkey. Couldn't be said better. :thumbs up

I'm going to quote you in my sig, if you don't mind. :)

[Allenson]

You're missing the point, mi Vida. Only the stupidest of us say we're only Germanic. Most who are aware of such matters opt for 'Celto-Germanic'.

Some in the thread want to rob us of this PART of ourselves

Right! And basically what I was trying to get at yesterday. There are some who would try to Germanicize everything (hordes of A-S invaders slaughtering the natives) and others who would wish to Celticize everything (only a handful of 'elites' who somehow spread their placenames and language over a wide swath but not their genes) and of course the answer lies somewhere inbetween.

It's also silly to think too black and white regarding these genetic groupings. These haplogroups are much older than are Britons, Picts, Angles or Saxons. Surely there were "Saxon markers" in Britain and "Pictish markers" in Angeln long before Northumbria or Strathclyde was a twinkle in anyone's eye.

[gandalf]

Before the Saxons and the Norse came to Britian all the native Brits looked like Rowan Atkinson and Tom Jones...:D:D:D

Well if you believe that germanic equals tall , blond , thin and vigorous ,
you must believe in Santa Klauss .

Germanic tribes , like Celtic , are in fact heterogenous people ,
because they absorbed a lot when they established in area already populated .

The archetype of german warrior was the same the Roman
were describing for Gaul tribes or Celts .

And this means that the proportion of such people was more important
than amongst Romans , this is all it means .

Romans were not all little and dark , Vikings were not all tall and fair .

And you should be glad about it because blond and pink
often goes with soft and fat . :cool:

[Trog]

Germanism is merely the romantic delusions of Victorian Englismen that have somehow had an unusual impact on the English- also known as Teutonism. It was a way of restoring in them a sense of belonging, seeing as they have been so disowned by us Celts. Celts are the original inhabitants, our people built the megaliths and built up centres of education and learning, transporting these throughout Europe. The Germanic has nothing evident in ancient britain that deserves any credibility. Nothing.

The Germanics were savages until eventually being tamed and introduced to civilisation by the evangelical efforts of the Celtic monks. But make no mistake, every English man retains that awful character of their Germanic roots.

Speaking a germanic language does not make a Scot Germanic anymore than it makes an African-American Germanic.

Genes don't count either - I am officially 100% Irish, so we do exist.

[The Lawspeaker]

"Yawns"

[_______]

Germanism is merely the romantic delusions of Victorian Englismen that have somehow had an unusual impact on the English- also known as Teutonism. It was a way of restoring in them a sense of belonging, seeing as they have been so disowned by us Celts. Celts are the original inhabitants, our people built the megaliths and built up centres of education and learning, transporting these throughout Europe. The Germanic has nothing evident in ancient britain that deserves any credibility. Nothing.

The Germanics were savages until eventually being tamed and introduced to civilisation by the evangelical efforts of the Celtic monks. But make no mistake, every English man retains that awful character of their Germanic roots.

Speaking a germanic language does not make a Scot Germanic anymore than it makes an African-American Germanic.

Genes don't count either - I am officially 100% Irish, so we do exist.

:rolleyes: English? Awful character?

[Bridie]

Germanism is merely the romantic delusions of Victorian Englismen that have somehow had an unusual impact on the English- also known as Teutonism. It was a way of restoring in them a sense of belonging, seeing as they have been so disowned by us Celts. Celts are the original inhabitants, our people built the megaliths and built up centres of education and learning, transporting these throughout Europe. The Germanic has nothing evident in ancient britain that deserves any credibility. Nothing.

The Germanics were savages until eventually being tamed and introduced to civilisation by the evangelical efforts of the Celtic monks. But make no mistake, every English man retains that awful character of their Germanic roots.

Speaking a germanic language does not make a Scot Germanic anymore than it makes an African-American Germanic.

Genes don't count either - I am officially 100% Irish, so we do exist.Do you not think it at all ridiculous to speak of those Germanics and these Celts of the Brit Isles in this day and age? How exactly do you distinguish between them? Make genetic testing mandatory?

You do realise that the Anglo-Saxon invasions/migrations took place well over 1000 years ago, don't you?

[The Lawspeaker]

Maybe she needs a Germanic savage boyfriend that makes sure she gets what she needs... :rolleyes2::D

[Trog]

Apart from you ^^^^

[The Lawspeaker]

Apart from you ^^^^
This Germanic savage is off the market and we Germanics are monogamists. So thanks but no thanks. :coffee:

[Olavsson]

It was a way of restoring in them a sense of belonging, seeing as they have been so disowned by us Celts. Celts are the original inhabitants, our people built the megaliths

Hey, this is actually WRONG. Pre-Celts built the Megaliths in Britain, before the Indo-European influence...
*Sighs...*


The Germanic has nothing evident in ancient britain that deserves any credibility. Nothing.

LOL. What am I supposed to reply to such a statement?

[Bridie]

LOL. What am I supposed to reply to such a statement?Actually, she's pretty much right there.

What followed in what came to be the Anglo-Saxon ruled Heptarchy, after the Romans withdrew from Britain, was the Dark Ages. I think no more needs to be said.

[Curtis24]

And then, just around the corner, something else will provide new "proof" of how the British should identify themselves. :rolleyes:

Its all a bit silly if you ask me.

Yes, our history is important, but things need to be kept in perspective and romanticisations should be taken for what they are. Fanciful notions to play with.

Yeah, but I still want to know who the British are descended from the most. I don't see that as being romanticizing...

[Bridie]

Yeah, but I still want to know who the British are descended from the most. I don't see that as being romanticizing...Fine. I've only been arguing against the British being defined as Germanic (or Celtic or whatever for that matter).

[Trog]

Do you not think it at all ridiculous to speak of those Germanics and these Celts of the Brit Isles in this day and age? How exactly do you distinguish between them? Make genetic testing mandatory?

You're right. These days it matters not, it's the magnificent history that matters. I don't care that some English twat thinks himself part of a master Teutonic race. But I do care if he think he can relate that idealism back to what the ancient Celts achieved.

Incidentally, I use Celt to refer to all inhabitants of Britain in pre-Roman times, be they Picts, Britons, Silures, Scotti etc. just not Anglo-Saxon.


You do realise that the Anglo-Saxon invasions/migrations took place well over 1000 years ago, don't you?

Still hasn't made any impact on my dna, which means those of us who claim we are not Germanic are evidently valid. Just because I am Scottish doesn't mean I have to be part English.

[Trog]

Maybe she needs a Germanic savage boyfriend that makes sure she gets what she needs... :rolleyes2::D

this kind of comment says more about you than it does about me. That you cling onto this idea of some Thor figurine as though it can mask your own inadequacies.

[Osweo]

LOL. What am I supposed to reply to such a statement?
You gave Trog the correct reply: 'LOL'. :D

What followed in what came to be the Anglo-Saxon ruled Heptarchy, after the Romans withdrew from Britain, was the Dark Ages. I think no more needs to be said.

'Dark Ages' refers to any time, or this particular time in Britain, when historical sources are few and far between. Naturally, this happens most in times of upheaval, i.e. when there are immensely important formative changes taking place.

Actually, the tail end of Roman Rule is something of a dark age itself, as the bureaucracy got fat and lazy, and literary culture faded away into almost nothing but repetition of centuries old material. There are almost no records for what was going on in Britain for a good century even BEFORE the Romans left. They even stopped bothering to carve inscriptions on buildings and milestones, for the most part. It was a pretty stagnant phase all round.

The Dark Ages come to a VERY definitive end with the publication of Bede's Ecclesiastical History of the English People. No Celt - Briton or Gael - had written anything comparable before. Nennius, in comparison, compiled a credulous bundle of fairy tales. Bede, a great Englishman, put History as a discipline back on a level that had barely been seen since Tacitus's day.

That was in 741. Bridie is stupidly implying that the 'Dark Age' lasted throughout the Heptarchia, which would take us well into King Alfred's day, or even to Norman times, depending on how you look at it.

The British Dark Age in fact saw some of our greatest native art forms developing (see my signature, in fact), and saw the foundation of state systems and identities that would last for centuries, or even a millennium and a half.

Ignorance is a depressing thing. :tsk:

[Bridie]

I don't care that some English twat thinks himself part of a master Teutonic race. But I do care if he think he can relate that idealism back to what the ancient Celts achieved.
They'd be more likely to give Germanics some credit for what the Britano-Romans achieved, for obvious reasons.

[The Lawspeaker]

this kind of comment says more about you than it does about me. That you cling onto this idea of some Thor figurine as though it can mask your own inadequacies.
Nah. I am mocking your ridiculous ideas. You seem to think that all of us Germanics are scum and whatnot but you seem to forget that you're living on generous Germanic hand-outs --- provided for by your friendly Anglo-Saxon neighbours.

The Germanic countries (Britain and to an extent Belgium excluded) are the richest countries on earth: efficient, hard-working, social. We get stuff done.. so what about the Celtic Tiger, Ireland ? Ah well.. that was hardly a raging success wouldn't you say ? Alright.. Scotland then ? Ah well.. leave it. Wales then ? Forget about it.

Brittany ? It's not exactly Sweden, no ? Galicia then ? Likewise.

[Mordid]

English are linguistically Germanic, so therefore they are Germanic but they aren't really Germanic in every way just like South Slavs are linguistically Slavic.

[Trog]

Osweo pays no credit at all to the works of the Celtic monks in the period he outlined. Maybe in his distasteful and oh-so-typical Anglo-arrogance he assumes no one else wil know of them, or maybe he himself has never heard of the likes of St Columban, St Bobbio or Luxeuil.

Aberlemno II 685AD

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3d/Pictish_Stone_at_Aberlemno_Church_Yard_-_Battle_Scene_Detail.jpg/220px-Pictish_Stone_at_Aberlemno_Church_Yard_-_Battle_Scene_Detail.jpg

[The Lawspeaker]

English are linguistically Germanic, so therefore they are Germanic but they aren't really Germanic in every way just like South Slavs are linguistically Slavic.
There is a lot of... well everything in their veins. Netherlandic (Flemish and Dutch --- Germanic), Huegenot French, Norman, Celts, the pre-Celtic inhabitants of the Isles, Roman, Anglo-Saxon, Jute, Frisian, Viking. The Brits are a race in their own right.

And English is not even a fully Germanic language as it took in a lot of French, Greek and Latin influence.

[Trog]

English are linguistically Germanic, so therefore they are Germanic but they aren't really Germanic in every way just like South Slavs are linguistically Slavic.

this means big Wesley is germanic then....

http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Games/images-2/wesley-snipes-court.jpg

[Mordid]

There is a lot of... well everything in their veins. Netherlandic (Flemish and Dutch --- Germanic), Huegenot French, Norman, Celts, the pre-Celtic inhabitants of the Isles, Roman, Anglo-Saxon, Viking. The Brits are a race in their own right.
English are predomaintly ethnic Celtic who adopted Germanic identify, so in that sense, they are Germanicised Celt.


And English is not even a fully Germanic language as it took in a lot of French, Greek and Latin influence.

It has stronger Germanic influence, no ? It's quite similiar to South Slavic language, actually.

[Mordid]

this means big Wesley is germanic then....

http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Games/images-2/wesley-snipes-court.jpg

I'm talking about white English.