Italian genetics

[d3cimat3d]

So can someone explain exactly who are Italians? From the 23andme PCA plots it gives the impression that Italians are just Mid-Easterners. :confused:

Here is a Sicilian (I think north Italians also end up in the same place among the orange squares).

http://i52.tinypic.com/1zx9g.jpg

And then this one from John Novembre, which tells a different story (Italians close to central Europe as much as Balkan people are):

http://i53.tinypic.com/w7lll.jpg

McDonald's BGA:

http://i52.tinypic.com/23wrz2o.png

So is 23andme's PCA plot completely wrong?

Looking at Italians, especially those from Milan, I can't really see them being that genetically close to Assyrians and etc. Lots of lighter Nordic types, some who almost look German.

[Boudica]

Lots of lighter Nordic types, some who almost look German.

Italians, especially Sicilians had a lot of influence from other people. Sicily was practically a port. Vikings, Normans, and Berbers came to Italy/Sicily and had an influence. The lighter Italians that you are talking about were more then likely influenced by an outer source, probably vikings/normands. A good example would be my great grandpa, he was Sicilian yet was about 6"2-3 and had blue eyes.

[Agrippa]

Racial type and population genetics don't always correspond 1:1 anyway...

[d3cimat3d]

Racial type and population genetics don't always correspond 1:1 anyway...

True. So if the first PCA plot is the closest to reality, do you think Italians kind of "sexually selected" fair hair & eyes while still retaining a overall Mid-Eastern autosomal profile?


Italians, especially Sicilians had a lot of influence from other people.

I still have the feeling that Normans, Vandals and whoever where just the ruling elites & never significantly changed the gene pool of Sicily.

[Agrippa]

From what I saw so far, Italians have no "Mid-Eastern profile", they have just a stronger Near Eastern influence than many other Europeans, that's it.

And the amount of this influence corresponds to geography, with the more Northern regions having usually less of it.

So there is not even such a genotypical-phenotypical gap.

Also, you don't always know when and which elements came from the Near East, probably there was a very long time for selection in between or they were of a different kind than now. F.e. Anatolia and the whole Levantine area was once much more Mediterranid than it is now.

The higher "South West Asian" numbers for Italians are intriguing though and have to be explained, probably by Metal Age and later movements.

Italians got a lot of influences from both, the North and further East/South.

[Sikeliot]

Italians aren't genetically Middle Eastern in the modern sense, just the far south is genetically akin to the Neolithic populations that moved into Europe as well as others who settled there; Greeks, Phoenicians, Normans etc with Greeks being a particularly strong influence. Greeks are the same way.

With 23andme Northern Italians would appear further north than the orange squares at the bottom (which is where far southern Italians and Greeks appear) and would appear closer to the break between the larger cluster of green squares and the few that drift toward the bottom, which is where Iberians appear although they are pulled slightly toward the Basques. and on Doug McDonald's chart, northern and central Italians appear where is labeled Italian, but since he doesn't have southerners marked off on there, they appear between the Tuscans and the Jews.

[alzo zero]

Italians aren't genetically Middle Eastern in the modern sense
And neither in the "ancient sense". :rolleyes:

[Sikeliot]

And neither in the "ancient sense". :rolleyes:

You understood what I meant. Either way you're all the way up north practically in the Alps so I don't see why it would offend you if your southern countrymen are somewhat related to the original Neolithic peoples.

[alzo zero]

You understood what I meant. Either way you're all the way up north practically in the Alps so I don't see why it would offend you if your southern countrymen are somewhat related to the original Neolithic peoples.
I'm not offended. I was just correcting you. By the way, when you mention the "Italians" you are referring to us "up north in the Alps" as well, it should go without saying.

[Ibericus]

Here Italians are divided in North, Tuscan, Central, and South :

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_6XAIk6ygtg/Tcqj7WCS_jI/AAAAAAAADsU/WJDG6R2XnH0/s1600/waeu.png

[alzo zero]

The Eurogenes Project has one of such maps too, where a bunch of Italians are grouped according to their respective origin. If only one "Italian" cluster existed it would be easily the biggest cluster in Europe:

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/5010/europew.png

However I prefer admixture analysis, they're way more informative I think. :)

[supergiovane]

these maps must be a real bummer for Racial Reality and Crimson Guard.

[Sikeliot]

these maps must be a real bummer for Racial Reality and Crimson Guard.

Crimson Guard once said that southern Italians are "closer to Basques than Greeks".

[Ibericus]

Crimson Guard once said that southern Italians are "closer to Basques than to Greeks".
The dude should stop taking drugs.

[alzo zero]

these maps must be a real bummer for Racial Reality and Crimson Guard.
The interesting thing of these maps is that the Northern Italian sample is always from the same circumscribed central area of Northern Italy (somewhere in Lombardia if I'm not mistaken). I have no idea where the Northwesterners and the Northeasterners would cluster, I'd wager not even them would be very close one to another.

[supergiovane]

Crimson Guard once said that southern Italians are "closer to Basques than Greeks".
he's one of those people who believe only in what they want to believe.

[Lucretius]

I've read somewhere that Sardinians were close to Basques,due to their pre-IE components but don't take this too seriously..

[askra]

how is it possible that we sardinians are so isolated and far genetically from all other european and middle eastern populations, if the island is located strategically in the middle of western mediterranean sea, and each kind of european and mediterranean population settled here in the last thousands years?

-bell beaker culture
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/63/Bellbeaker_map_europe.jpg

-megalithic culture
http://www.britam.org/picturesYair/dolmen/map.jpg

-phoenician colonies
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/AntikeGriechen1Tyrrhenisch.jpg/615px-AntikeGriechen1Tyrrhenisch.jpg

-ancient romans
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/Roman_Empire_map.svg/557px-Roman_Empire_map.svg.png

-germanic populations like goths and vandals
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b5/Europe_526.jpg/761px-Europe_526.jpg

-byzantines
http://i82.servimg.com/u/f82/11/42/57/42/mappa011.jpg

-ligurians
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/Espansione_di_Genova.png

-tuscans
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/it/thumb/c/c3/Espansione_di_Pisa.png/750px-Espansione_di_Pisa.png

-Catalans and Spaniards
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/96/Mapa_dialectal_del_catal%C3%A0.png/444px-Mapa_dialectal_del_catal%C3%A0.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7a/Habsburg_Map_1547.jpg/800px-Habsburg_Map_1547.jpg

-austro-hungarians

-piedmontese
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/TannerMapKingdomSardinia1839.jpg

-plus thousands venetians, friulans settled among the world wars, and italophone istrians and dalmatians settled here after IIWW

all these people influenced (more or less) sardinian culture, language, architecture, cuisine, etc.....but according to this chart not not the genetic of population, it looks like that sardinia is a sort an alien land on this earth, how is it possible?
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/5010/europew.png

[Agrippa]

Probably the genetic influences of the post-Metal Age periods were rather insignificant and didn't impregnate the whole island with following relative endogamy leading to the "special status".

Also, don't forget that the cities were always contraselective, with higher level variants in particuliar getting often lost over many generations, with a constant flow of blood from the countryside keeping urban areas alive.

This means, that even if a city was let's say 100 percent Phoenician, what they never were, over time the same city might have become, through migration and genflow, more island-typical and almost indistinguishable from the not Phoenician influenced areas.

In other areas of Italy, larger groups of people came, which settled in the whole country in larger numbers, sometimes even replaced locals. That should suffice to make a difference: Lasting new influences, even different selection and relative isolation.

[Ibericus]

About sardinians, most likely the core population has been the same since Mesolithic times, and the neolithic influences and other invasions have been more minoritary than it is thought.

[Ouistreham]

The Eurogenes Project has one of such maps too, where a bunch of Italians are grouped according to their respective origin. If only one "Italian" cluster existed it would be easily the biggest cluster in Europe:

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/5010/europew.png


How come North Italians and Spaniards are so close to each other on this map, and more surprinsingly with Portugueses overlapping with both clusters?

Could it be a consequence of the Last Glacial Maximum (about 20,000 years ago), when human presence in Europe was limited to its Southern shores?



About sardinians, most likely the core population has been the same since Mesolithic times, and the neolithic influences and other invasions have been more minoritary than it is thought.

All century long invasions, occupations and empires we love to fantasize about on that board were likely to have lesser consequences than one month of immigration right now in any major European airport (or in Lampedusa). :(

[Sikeliot]

Similar amount of Northern European and Neolithic influences in both places (Iberia and northern Italy) perhaps.

[Polako]

North Italians are about as European as it gets, and very similar to French and Iberians in terms of intra-European genetic diversity (obviously minus the North Afro influence seen in Iberians).

Southern Italians, on the other hand, are a whole different kettle of fish, and have a lot of interesting influences in their DNA from various places. But I won't get into that, because I've got a South Italian posse after me on the internet already, as a result of the stuff I've published. So I'll just let Dienekes take care of that side of things.

[Ibericus]

North Italians are about as European as it gets, and very similar to French and Iberians in terms of intra-European genetic diversity (obviously minus the North Afro influence seen in Iberians).
Yes, but North-Italians have double of Southwest-Asian and west-Asian than Iberians.

[Polako]

Yes, but North-Italians have double of Southwest-Asian and west-Asian than Iberians.

Yes, but that's older (ie. Neolithic) and more widespread than the North African influence in Iberians. So it's basically part of the modern European genetic structure.

[alzo zero]

Yes, but that's older (ie. Neolithic) and more widespread than the North African influence in Iberians. So it's basically part of the modern European genetic structure.
Beside the North African isn't the only African component in Iberians.

[Agrippa]

Can we say for sure when North African Europid and South West Asian Europid entered Europe? I think we can't say it for sure in both cases...

Only for the others it is pretty clear to me that they were present since the Neolithic. As for those, I don't know for sure when they entered or whether they came in with more than one movement and in different periods of time, similar to the Mongoloid influence in Eastern-North Eastern Europe.

[Sikeliot]

Can we say for sure when North African Europid and South West Asian Europid entered Europe? I think we can't say it for sure in both cases...

Only for the others it is pretty clear to me that they were present since the Neolithic.

The only thing that confuses me about the idea of North African admixture entering Europe in the Neolithic is that it's very low in Greece, while Greece is one of the most Neolithic parts of Europe as a whole.

[Agrippa]

The only thing that confuses me about the idea of North African admixture entering Europe in the Neolithic is that it's very low in Greece, while Greece is one of the most Neolithic parts of Europe as a whole.

That is no mystery. North Africa itself was inhabited by more archaic hunter gatherer elements, strong Cromagnoid tendencies. So essentially, both in Europe AND North Africa waves of culturally and racially usually more progressive elements made their way through the region.

We deal therefore with two waves from the Near East - one going from Anatolia-Caucasian-Central Asian areas into Europe, the other from Anatolia-Near East-Egypt into the rest of North Africa.

Two movements and the longer term differences between these components being primarily the exact origin in the Near East (North vs. South, different populations and cultures), as well as the pre-Neolithic elements, with which they mixed.

So modern Europeans are pre-Neolithic Europeans + Neolithic and later waves and modern North Africans are pre-Neolithic NA + Neolithic and later waves (including new Negroid influences through slave trade primarily).

If you see it that way, it is ultimately very clear where these two waves would have met each other, surely not in Greece, but in Iberia.

Now the street of Gibraltar might still have served as a strong barriere, but obviously, some elements might have made it.

Yet those would have been, in my opinion, mostly Near Eastern culture bearers on the move, rather than the equivalent to modern North Africans. But some of those could have been taken with those Neolithic culture bearers, as already assimilated elements, even then - and later for sure too in a similar fashion - so you don't need later Moors for such an influence, even though those might have played in as well - on a very low and unimportant, but still noticeable level.

That the Eastern Mediterranean and North Africa being rather isolated from each other at that time already, you can clearly observe if looking at the distribution of E-V13 for example.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a2_(E-V13).jpg

Most of it in North Africa is the result of later expansions of Levantine-European people (Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans etc.).

E1b1b1a1b (E-V13).

Contrary to that, other variants of E1b1b are more common in Iberia and shared with North Africans partly.

[Ibericus]

Yes, but that's older (ie. Neolithic) and more widespread than the North African influence in Iberians. So it's basically part of the modern European genetic structure.
No, we don't know if the North-African is neolithic or even older. Anyways, the SWA and WA are clearly not european, since they peak outside of Europe, the first one peaking in Arabians and the second in the Caucasus/Anatolia.

[Transhumanist]

Anyways, the SWA and WA are clearly not european, since they peak outside of Europe, the first one peaking in Arabians and the second in the Caucasus/Anatolia.

I believe Polako's point goes to what one may deduce by taking a look at Dienekes' MDS plot of the first two dimensions of variation for the new v3 Dodecad (http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/06/design-of-dodecad-v3.html) run:

[Ibericus]

I believe Polako's point goes to what one may deduce by taking a look at Dienekes' MDS plot of the first two dimensions of variation for the new v3 Dodecad (http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/06/design-of-dodecad-v3.html) run:
So ? What has this anything to do with the fact that those components entered in Europe in Neolithic times or not ?

[Agrippa]

No, we don't know if the North-African is neolithic or even older. Anyways, the SWA and WA are clearly not european, since they peak outside of Europe, the first one peaking in Arabians and the second in the Caucasus/Anatolia.

The difference between WA and SWA is, that the WA might represent a component which is even included in West Europeans to a degree and very closely related to the other European components, as well as very old and evenly distributed.

That is neither true for SWA nor NA. Both are Europid too, but not as close to Europeans, nor as evenly distributed.

If I come closer to your point of view, WA is borderline, both geographically (Anatolia-Central Asia is very close geographically and the regions were the major sources of European Europid elements) and genetically (closer to the basic European WE and EE, even than Mediterranean in the last run, but peaks outside of Europe, yet evenly distributed), but SWA and NA is out in the sense of being clearly non-European, what you can't say about WA.

But finally, all those three elements are Europid, so it is not even "race mixture", like if there is mixture with Mongolid and Negrid.

Actually there are four largely Europid elements present in Europe which peak outside, WA (closest), SWA (second closest), NA (third) and more borderline South Asian (fifth).

Of these only WE is closer to WE and EE than Mediterranean.

They are all below 0,1:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Pw7x-HD7ON0/TgJS__AvriI/AAAAAAAAAiU/44-iorvZqS0/s1600/fst.png

Mediterranean in this run means most likely the refugia people of the South of Europe + WA, whereas West Asian is the major Neolithic expansion and Western European largely a cross of EE, WA and Mediterranean, with EE being the Mesolithic East + WA.

I guess there are just different waves of WA into Europe, which is why different runs come up with so different results, whether they grasp more of the elements completely diluted in f.e. Western European.

So probably what you get with strict criteria are LATER WA expansions, after the Mesolithicum and early Neolithics? Metal Age even?

I think the WA alone is much too weak, after strict criteria, for the whole Neolithic influence and the close relationship of the WE and EE to it speak for itself too, because Europe was settled from the East, both in the Mesolithicum and later periods.

Depending on the runs, "West Asian" will grow or shrink both in comparison to the more Northern European components and SWA, because its definition is in between - in this run cloest to Western European.

Western Europe had just a major influence from the South East and therefore elements close to WA/being WA, this shows up again and again, not just in the WA numbers, but the distance of the components.

[askra]

Probably the genetic influences of the post-Metal Age periods were rather insignificant and didn't impregnate the whole island with following relative endogamy leading to the "special status".

Also, don't forget that the cities were always contraselective, with higher level variants in particuliar getting often lost over many generations, with a constant flow of blood from the countryside keeping urban areas alive.

This means, that even if a city was let's say 100 percent Phoenician, what they never were, over time the same city might have become, through migration and genflow, more island-typical and almost indistinguishable from the not Phoenician influenced areas.

In other areas of Italy, larger groups of people came, which settled in the whole country in larger numbers, sometimes even replaced locals. That should suffice to make a difference: Lasting new influences, even different selection and relative isolation.


About sardinians, most likely the core population has been the same since Mesolithic times, and the neolithic influences and other invasions have been more minoritary than it is thought.

it is surprising because Sardinia is not more isolated geographically than other mediterranean islands, for example Corsica, that is more inacessibile due to its orography, but corsicans are not isolated genetically.

[_______]

what about the unreliable boyfriend gene? :(

[safinator]

http://dienekes.blogspot.it/2013/05/genetic-structure-and-different.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.it/)


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-MWmAskEgse0/Uai37lE3ohI/AAAAAAAAI2I/JlgvVTbQcwE/s640/haplogroups_italy.png

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-hMKZHlq141g/Uai2eteFicI/AAAAAAAAI14/Qul2-rSPeZA/s1600/Figure_S1.png

[safinator]

Surprisingly enough the areas with most E-V13 are the northern ones!

[ChocolateFace]

Surprisingly enough the areas with most E-V13 are the northern ones!

This is probably from ancient migrations. Do you agree?

[safinator]

This is probably from ancient migrations. Do you agree?

Well basically NE Italy in first place, central south Italy second, Northwest Italy third, and yes ancient migrations of course i presume.

[Damião de Góis]

Surprisingly enough the areas with most E-V13 are the northern ones!

Isn't that the balkan haplogroup? Shouldn't be too surprising.

[safinator]

Isn't that the balkan haplogroup? Shouldn't be too surprising.

Well it's not very common in the bordering Slovenia but it's not a huge percentage in NE Italy either.

[Peyrol]

So can someone explain exactly who are Italians? From the 23andme PCA plots it gives the impression that Italians are just Mid-Easterners. :confused:

Here is a Sicilian (I think north Italians also end up in the same place among the orange squares).

http://i52.tinypic.com/1zx9g.jpg

And then this one from John Novembre, which tells a different story (Italians close to central Europe as much as Balkan people are):

http://i53.tinypic.com/w7lll.jpg

McDonald's BGA:

http://i52.tinypic.com/23wrz2o.png

So is 23andme's PCA plot completely wrong?

Looking at Italians, especially those from Milan, I can't really see them being that genetically close to Assyrians and etc. Lots of lighter Nordic types, some who almost look German.


Lombardic people ''mideasterns''?

Lol, maybe in your wet pan-turanic dreams :lol:

[Damião de Góis]

By the way, as a curiosity i was checking how widespread my own haplogroups were in Italy. And my paternal line (P-312 in the study) is more common in the NW, which was expected given this map from other study:

http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/4624/s116all.jpg

As for J1c, i'm having trouble to interpret this:

http://oi43.tinypic.com/30ivpt0.jpg

[Artek]

Wow, I see no R1a samples in Veneto region. There are either many regional differences or the study is poorly sampled.
I would bet for both.

[safinator]

Wow, I see no R1a samples in Veneto region. There are either many regional differences or the study is poorly sampled.
I would bet for both.
In an older study was found 9.4% of R1a in NE Italy but the samples back there were took from cities which were futher East than the ones in this study.

[Peyrol]

The problem of 23and me are the samples:

''Italian'' for sicilian-americans (lol...)
''North Italian'' for lombards (and since ethnic lombards are only 27% of post-wwII lombard population (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombardy), the data can also be distorted)

Nearly impossible be precise and indicative for 61 million people of different background (through the millenias)

[Prince Carlo]

This study has a strange nomeclature. It would be good if the autors made their samples public. I am interest in the autosomal Dna.


In an older study was found 9.4% of R1a in NE Italy but the samples back there were took from cities which were futher East than the ones in this study.

I don't know about this, but people from Verona have about 10% R1a. That's not exactly a far eastern city.

http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/italy.pdf

People from Udine have a 13% of R1a. Unfortunately they used a outdated nomeclature, so I don't know how much R1a the Ladini carry. But I wouldn't be surprised if they carried even more than that.

http://dienekes.blogspot.it/2012/12/y-chromosome-study-of-italy-brisighelli.html

[Lábaru]

http://oi52.tinypic.com/23wrz2o.jpg

why are the Tuscans under "Italian"? are those Italians from northern Italy?

[Peyrol]

I wonder why ''tuscans'' are listed as a separate population and how it's possible that sardinians are literally an isolated population...

[safinator]

This study has a strange nomeclature. It would be good if the autors made their samples public. I am interest in the autosomal Dna.



I don't know about this, but people from Verona have about 10% R1a. That's not exactly a far eastern city.

http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/italy.pdf

People from Udine have a 13% of R1a. Unfortunately they used a outdated nomeclature, so I don't know how much R1a the Ladini carry. But I wouldn't be surprised if they carried even more than that.

http://dienekes.blogspot.it/2012/12/y-chromosome-study-of-italy-brisighelli.html

In fact i was thinking of Udine, not about FTDNA.

[Damião de Góis]

I wonder why ''tuscans'' are listed as a separate population and how it's possible that sardinians are literally an isolated population...

That has been known for some time. On these genetic plots (either from McDonald, 23andme, Eurogenes, Dodecad, etc) sardinians and basques are isolate populations genetically. And Italy is usually shown genetically divided between north italians, tuscans and south italians.

[Insuperable]

I wonder why ''tuscans'' are listed as a separate population and how it's possible that sardinians are literally an isolated population...

Because it can be seen that Italy is genetically comprised of four clusters: Northern Italians, Tuscans, Central Italians and Southern Italians (or perhaps Southern Italians and Sicilians).

Sardinians are an isolated group, but it does not mean that they are less European. To our current understanding Sardinians are the most similar people to early neolithic invading people. They remained very pure. While the vast majority of modern Europeans are on average Mesolithic+Neolithic (late and early) Sardinians remained mostly Neolithic.

[Lábaru]

I wonder why ''tuscans'' are listed as a separate population and how it's possible that sardinians are literally an isolated population...

in fact Italian and Spanish north seem to be together in the same place, it is usual, but the Basques and sardinia are far away.

[Prince Carlo]

Because it can be seen that Italy is genetically comprised of four clusters: Northern Italians, Tuscans, Central Italians and Southern Italians (or perhaps Southern Italians and Sicilians).

Sardinians are an isolated group, but it does not mean that they are less European. To our current understanding Sardinians are the most similar people to early neolithic invading people. They remained very pure. While the vast majority of modern Europeans are on average Mesolithic+Neolithic (late and early) Sardinians remained mostly Neolithic.

ORLY? MDLP has a different clustering for Italians from Eurogenes and Dodecad.

[Insuperable]

ORLY? MDLP has a different clustering for Italians from Eurogenes and Dodecad.

How much different? What should I have written? Isn't that how Italy is divided genetically? I read about four Italian clusters not once.

[Peyrol]

Because it can be seen that Italy is genetically comprised of four clusters: Northern Italians, Tuscans, Central Italians and Southern Italians (or perhaps Southern Italians and Sicilians).

Sardinians are an isolated group, but it does not mean that they are less European. To our current understanding Sardinians are the most similar people to early neolithic invading people. They remained very pure. While the vast majority of modern Europeans are on average Mesolithic+Neolithic (late and early) Sardinians remained mostly Neolithic.

I know, i'm only wondering how Tuscany remained genetically isolated since there aren't any kind of geographical barrier between Tuscany and other central regions (and even with Liguria and Emilia, northern region).


in fact Italian and Spanish north seem to be together in the same place, it is usual, but the Basques and sardinia are far away.

Probably because both sards and basques carries a lot of pre-indoeuropean DNA.

[Prince Carlo]

How much different? What should I have wrote? Isn't that how Italy is divided genetically? I read about four Italian clusters not once.

http://abload.de/img/mlp22_mfa_g7u9m.png

[Lábaru]

And the Romanians so close? are closer to Spain than the French xD xD xD

[Damião de Góis]

And the Romanians so close? are closer to Spain than the French xD xD xD

Not so close, i think this one is better:

http://ijploum.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/europegenetics.jpg?w=710

[Prince Carlo]

One is an intra-west eurasian plot and the other is a intra-european plot. The latter is better at showing the difference among european groups.

[Insuperable]

http://abload.de/img/mlp22_mfa_g7u9m.png

Ok. I was just saying what I read. Central and Southern Italians are the same. I could not locate Tuscans. They were probably included under Central Italians.

[Prince Carlo]

I am not an expert, but Eurogenes/Dodecad use a very small number of samples for their clusters because of the calculator effect. MDLP uses a lot more samples, but some of their clusters seem to be off.


In fact i was thinking of Udine, not about FTDNA.

Well Austrians still have a 25% of R1a while the average for North Italy is about 3%-

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

North East Italians are halfway between North Italians and Austrians.

[Ulla]

Ok. I was just saying what I read. Central and Southern Italians are the same. I could not locate Tuscans. They were probably included under Central Italians.

It depends by what you mean with Central Italians, it's not clear even to Italians. Tuscan, Marche and Umbria are closer to Northern Italians. Latium (but Northern Latium is closer to Tuscany and Umbria), Abruzzo and Molise are closer to Southern Italians. And so on, Northern Tuscans, Northern Marche people are pratically the same of Northern Italians, with the Northern Italians of extreme North Italy (pre-Alpine regions) closer to Austrians, Swiss...

[safinator]

I am not an expert, but Eurogenes/Dodecad use a very small number of samples for their clusters because of the calculator effect. MDLP uses a lot more samples, but some of their clusters seem to be off.



Well Austrians still have a 25% of R1a while the average for North Italy is about 3%-

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

North East Italians are halfway between North Italians and Austrians.

What subclades are R1a Austrians usually?

[safinator]

Btw also Mtdna table.

http://i.imgur.com/k1fzcEH.png

[Hajdu]

I know, i'm only wondering how Tuscany remained genetically isolated since there aren't any kind of geographical barrier between Tuscany and other central regions (and even with Liguria and Emilia, northern region).



Probably because both sards and basques carries a lot of pre-indoeuropean DNA.

It's believed that Tuscans represent a population where the old Italic (Etruscan and other) population survived.

[Artek]

What subclades are R1a Austrians usually?
M458, Z280 and L664

[Prince Carlo]

Btw also Mtdna table.

http://i.imgur.com/k1fzcEH.png

OMG no SSA mtdna found??? Not even among 800-900 samples from all over the county??? Hehehehehehe.

[Ulla]

I wonder why ''tuscans'' are listed as a separate population

IMHO It's an arbitrary choice of geneticists, not because the Tuscans are really separate from the rest of Italy

[Ulla]

It's believed that Tuscans represent a population where the old Italic (Etruscan and other) population survived.

Geneticists are studying the Tuscans as if they were separate, just because they are trying to find informations on the Etruscans, I guess.

[Ulla]

No hypothesis or datas on the Ligurians?