Do you consider the Caucasus to be European?

[Terek]

A tense debate has forced me to ask this question as a poll.
With geography, the Caucasus Mountains region is usually considered to be a part of Europe.
The debate here is culturally, are they European?

The region I refer to is

-The North Caucasian region of Russia, which includes the Republics of:
Adygeya
Kabardino-Balkaria
Karachai-Cherkesia
North Ossetia
Ingushetia
Chechnya
Dagestan

-The Trans-Caucasian Republics
Georgia
Armenia
Azerbaijan
and the regions Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Ajaria, NagornoKarabakh.

So, are they Europe? Why or why not? Are some regions more "European" than others? Is this based on ethnicity, religion, politics...?

[Ibericus]

Culturally and mentally I don't know them much. But I know them genetically and they are surely not European.

[Efim45]

This is Europe:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_RdLAd89tRNA/TJEWCORgJII/AAAAAAAABt0/tkgJHwMSTwg/s1600/mapa.jpg

[Sikeliot]

No, I don't. culturally, I have read Georgia is more European than Armenia, and Azerbaijan has almost nothing European in its culture.

[Dario Argento]

I consider them the exact border between Middle East and Europe. And they're such genetically. In Dodecad I think they are rougly half West Asian and Half Northern Europe (Sarmatian and Scythian or something more ancient from the steppes) with minor North East Asian admixture.

Culturally they're isolates I'd say. People usually argue they don't have much to do with Europe, but I don't consider them to similar to Middle Easterns like Lebanese, Syrians, Palestineans, etc.

[Sikeliot]

I consider them the exact border between Middle East and Europe. And they're such genetically. In Dodecad I think they are rougly half West Asian and Half Northern Europe (Sarmatian and Scythian or something more ancient from the steppes) with minor North East Asian admixture.


Georgians are 70% + West Asian and Armenians are about half.. I don't think they are half Northern European though.

[Beorn]

http://celebbabylaundry.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/keeping-up-with-the-kardashians-20080306085041322_640w.jpg


http://cdn.fd.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Daffy-Duck-masturbating.jpg

[Hess]

Culturally, absolutely not. Physically, some of them can pass as Italian, Greek, South Slavic, and even East Slavic

[Efim45]

The Kardashians are filth and it is a surprise they haven't been murdered yet.

[Beorn]

The Kardashians are filth and it is a surprise they haven't been murdered yet.

Queer.

[Bloodeagle]

I don't know too much about this area, I know the geographers consider Mount Elbrus to be the highest peak in Europe, but map makers do not take culture into account when subdividing the continents. So I question whether or not this region is European in a cultural context, but I cannot give an educated opinion other than what I have read on Wikipedia, which states that:

Throughout its history, the Caucasus was usually incorporated into the Iranian world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Iran). At the beginning of the 19th century, the Russian Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Empire) conquered the territory from the Qajars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qajars)

[Stars Down To Earth]

Efim, always so cheerful and positive in every thread.

[Hess]

Queer.

he has a point, though- we let can't our dicks decide who is European and who isn't.

[Dario Argento]

Georgians are 70% + West Asian and Armenians are about half.. I don't think they are half Northern European though.

I'm talking about Northern Caucasians. Adygei, Chechens are around 45% North euro.

[Sikeliot]

I'm talking about Northern Caucasians. Adygei, Chechens are around 45% North euro.


Oh. You're probably right. When I think Caucasus I usually assume someone means Armenia, Georgia, and Azerbaijan.

[Beorn]

he has a point, though- we let can't our dicks decide who is European and who isn't.

It didn't fail us in the past. :swl

[Sikeliot]

It didn't fail us in the past. :swl

If you don't consider bringing millions of mestizos and mulattoes into the world "failing", then you're correct. ;)

[R4ge]

I wouldn't consider them Middle Eastern. They are closer to Europe in many ways than they are to true Middle Eastern nations such as Lebanon or Iraq. Their identities are often debated since they are former Soviet republics and lie geographically in Asia. I think they are as European as North Africans are Middle Eastern. Just countries that form a part of a "greater" region, so Georgia and Armenia would fit in "greater Europe" but not "Europe" just as Morocco and Algeria would fit in the "greater Middle East" even though they are in North Africa and since the "Middle East" is a term used to describe Anatolia, the Levant, Mesopotamia, Arabian peninsula and Persia. Armenians are genetically very close to Turks and Georgians have a high West Asian component, culturally they are different and more similar to Serbs. Azerbaijan on the other hand might be considered part of the greater Middle East because of their Iranian and Turkish influence.

[Dario Argento]

Oh. You're probably right. When I think Caucasus I usually assume someone means Armenia, Georgia, and Azerbaijan.

I'd say Georgians are the purest South Caucasians. Azerbaijan has always had strong ties to Iran, and Armenia to Anatolia. However Northern Caucasus are mostly isolates, as their languages show. Some sort of Asian basques they are.

[Beorn]

If you don't consider bringing millions of mestizos and mulattoes into the world "failing", then you're correct. ;)

Incorrect.

http://www.frenchcreoles.com/jade_goody.jpg

Correct.

http://www.tonyswift.co.uk/assets/images/Samia_Smith.jpg

[StonyArabia]

Iraq is Arabian genetically with minor Iranic input they have nothing to do with the Caucasus. Iraqis are very distant from Europeans and even Caucasus folks.

The people from the Caucasus are Europeans closest genetic relatives.

[Osweo]

Not quite, but it's not a simple question by any means. It's simultaneously a periphery, an overlap, and a world of its own.

I've only been in the north western Kavkaz, and in my travels there I went between laid back provincial Russia to towns of nosey Greeks and bustling Armenians, to steppeland auls of muslim Kabarda, and Afghan-style mountain passes and gorges inhabited by slitty eyed Turkic shepherds. All of that in a very small area - roughly the size of Yorkshire, in fact! :p

[Hess]

It didn't fail us in the past. :swl

Nope, not once :)

http://www.greeleyhistory.org/pics/utes_whites_treaty.jpg

[StonyArabia]

The Turkic people of the Caucasus are the Karchay-Balkars they do indeed have a lot of Mongol admixture, especially those that reside in the North West Caucasus. Though many of them look no different than their Adyghe cousins. They claim descent from the Kipchak and Cuman tribes that merged with the Alans. They became Sunni Muslims under the influence of the Crimean Tatars like most of the North West Caucasus; originally they worshiped the Sky god Tengri mixed with some elements of Zoroastrianism.

The Caucasus can not be called European accept for Armenia and Georgia. The rest is mostly because they are influenced by Turkic or Iranic culture and the Islamic faith. Also Europe is tied with Christendom. Calling them Middle Easterner is wrong because they are not in the Middle East. They are region in their own right with distinct culture and traditions. The most European areas would be Gerogia and Ossetia and Armenia to lesser extent. However Adyghea and other North West Caucasian areas not, based on the culture and traditions. However genetically they are Europeans closest relatives.

[Logan]

Rather Eurasia, Europe actually being a promitory of the greater Asian continent.

[StonyArabia]

Rather Eurasia, Europe actually being a promitory of the greater Asian continent.

If the Caucasus had not come under Turkic or Iranic influence it would have been part of Europe by default. The people usually don't look much different from Europeans at all they are genetically the closest group to Europeans. However since many Caucasus groups were heavily influenced by Turkic or Iranic civilization they are not part of Europe with the areas however that kept the Byzantine culture and Christianity are seen loosely part of Europe.

[Dario Argento]

If the Caucasus had not come under Turkic or Iranic influence it would have been part of Europe by default. The people usually don't look much different from Europeans at all they are genetically the closest group to Europeans. However since many Caucasus groups were heavily influenced by Turkic or Iranic civilization they are not part of Europe with the areas however that kept the Byzantine culture and Christianity are seen loosely part of Europe.

They always were quite appart from Europe. They always were quite Pagan with quite different traditions from Europeans. They were also tribalistic until a more recent era than most Europeans were. Their languages are also very different from anything.

This has nothing to do with Muslims, Turks, Persians, etc. People from Caucasus are not really Muslims. They have many Pagan traditions and un-Islamic things.

[Sikeliot]

If the Caucasus had not come under Turkic or Iranic influence it would have been part of Europe by default. The people usually don't look much different from Europeans at all they are genetically the closest group to Europeans. However since many Caucasus groups were heavily influenced by Turkic or Iranic civilization they are not part of Europe with the areas however that kept the Byzantine culture and Christianity are seen loosely part of Europe.

For whatever it's worth I have read that Armenians perceive themselves as culturally close to Greeks more than to Turks or Iranians.

[Portukalos]

They always were quite appart from Europe. They always were quite Pagan with quite different traditions from Europeans.

Actually Armenia was one of the first Christian Kingdom. But I guess you're one of these guys who think Christianism is a European religion , nevermind.

[Dario Argento]

Actually Armenia was one of the first Christian Kingdom. But I guess you're one of these guys who think Christianitism is a European religion , nevermind.

I'm not talking about Armenia. I'm talking about Chechens, Adygei and Northern Caucasians. By the way, Armenia isn't even on proper Caucasus. The nations directly in Caucasus are Azerbaijan, Georgia, Russian Caucasus ( Abkhazia, Adygea, Cherkessia, Chechnya, Ossetia, Ingushetia, Dagestan)

[Portukalos]

If the Caucasus had not come under Turkic or Iranic influence it would have been part of Europe by default. The people usually don't look much different from Europeans at all they are genetically the closest group to Europeans. .
Not sure , look at where Adygei (Circassians) and Lezgins cluster :

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/5010/europew.png

[StonyArabia]

They always were quite appart from Europe. They always were quite Pagan with quite different traditions from Europeans.

This is actually correct. However many areas of the Caucasus were Christian. The Adyghe themselves adopted Christianity from the Gerogians in the 5th century. However in the 15th century due to politics and having a connection with the Crimean Khans they adopted Sunni Islam usually many of the consorts were Adyghe and sometimes Noxchi. Paganism was very widely practiced in the North Caucasus with elements of Tengrism and Zoroastrianism.


They were also tribalistic until a more recent era than most Europeans were. Their languages are also very different from anything.

This is also correct and tribalism still an important landmark in the Caucasus. Yes the Caucasian languages are unique and are said to be an isolate. Some believe they might be related to the Basque but there has been no prove as far to state if there is a relationship.


This has nothing to do with Muslims, Turks, Persians, etc. People from Caucasus are not really Muslims. They have many Pagan traditions and un-Islamic things.

The Turkic and Iranic influences upon the Caucasus pre-date Islam. However it became stronger with the coming of Islam. As Islam came to the Caucasus via the Turkic peoples or the Iranic peoples through missionaries most often. The people in the Caucasus practice nominal Islam and have adopted the more mystical Sufi paths which is similar to their old religious traditions.

[Dario Argento]

This is actually correct. However many areas of the Caucasus were Christian. The Adyghe themselves adopted Christianity from the Gerogians in the 5th century. However in the 15th century due to politics and having a connection with the Crimean Khans they adopted Sunni Islam usually many of the consorts were Adyghe and sometimes Noxchi. Paganism was very widely practiced in the North Caucasus with elements of Tengrism and Zoroastrianism.

I knew some Chechens adopted Christianism relatively early, but it didn't prevailed. The very Isolated nature of that region prevented it.



This is also correct and tribalism still an important landmark in the Caucasus. Yes the Caucasian languages are unique and are said to be an isolate. Some believe they might be related to the Basque but there has been no prove as far to state if there is a relationship.

I don't think so. The nature of the languages is very different. Vainakh and Circassian families, although both very different, both have lots of guttural and glottal consonants. Basque has even fewer sounds and has nothing similar to the kind of consonants used in Chechen than Spanish, which are already relatively low. It's hard to represent those sounds, even in Latin alphabet. That's the reason why it's hard and impractical to write these languages in Cyrillic while Spanish or Basque are effortlesly transliterated into Cyrillic or Latin alphabets.

[Guapo]

If they're fuckable, yes.

[Terek]

Basque has even fewer sounds and has nothing similar to the kind of consonants used in Chechen than Spanish, which are already relatively low. It's hard to represent those sounds, even in Latin alphabet. That's the reason why it's hard and impractical to write these languages in Cyrillic while Spanish or Basque are effortlesly transliterated into Cyrillic or Latin alphabets.

This is entirely true. The only reason Basque looks anything at all like Chechen is because the Ichkerian Latin writing system uses a lot of the same letters, a lot of x's and such. (My nickname for example)

[Dario Argento]

I also wanted to add that Armenia shouldn't really be laveled as Culturally Caucasian as it's more Anatolian than Caucasian. The small extent of what Armenia is now is not what they used to be in the past.

Armenia at its fullest extent:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/92/Armenian_Empire.png/800px-Armenian_Empire.png

[Dario Argento]

This is entirely true. The only reason Basque looks anything at all like Chechen is because the Ichkerian Latin writing system uses a lot of the same letters, a lot of x's and such. (My nickname for example)

Basque x's are different though. Basque tx is pronounced as "ch" while I take your nickname is more like "haza-yo"?

[Ibericus]

I'm talking about Northern Caucasians. Adygei, Chechens are around 45% North euro.
Adygei are only 16 % North-European at Dodecad.


Iraq is Arabian genetically with minor Iranic input they have nothing to do with the Caucasus. Iraqis are very distant from Europeans and even Caucasus folks.
The people from the Caucasus are Europeans closest genetic relatives.
No, they aren't. The georgians and armenians cluster with Iranians and Turks

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_6XAIk6ygtg/Tcqj7WCS_jI/AAAAAAAADsU/WJDG6R2XnH0/s1600/waeu.png

http://imageshack.us/m/845/8067/bga1.png

[Terek]

Basque x's are different though. Basque tx is pronounced as "ch" while I take your nickname is more like "haza-yo"?

I know nothing of Basque pronounciation, but the Chechen-Ichkerian writing has different x's.

x is pronounced as cyrillic х like kh
ẋ is pronounced harder than your regular h (in cyrillic, х1) and is now written хь

and in cyrillic кх becomes q
and then къ is written kh and pronounced like k-h

:)

[d3cimat3d]

Georgians are not European, North Caucasians are Semi-European.

[Austrvegr]

Georgians are not European, North Caucasians are Semi-European.

North Caucasians may not be more European than Georgians because they are Muslims.

[Äike]

I don't think that people from the Caucasus are European.

[Comte Arnau]

What is European?

Geographically, if the Caucausus are taken as a border, the Transcaucasian countries of Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan are not European.

Culturally, I see Christianity as one obvious element of the post-Carolingian concept of Europe. In that sense, Azerbaijan is ruled out.

Linguistically, most European languages are Indo-European, so between Georgia and Armenia, only the latter belongs to the Indo-European group.

Phenotypically, some say Georgians look more European than Armenians, maybe because the latter has interacted more with Anatolians and Middle Easterners.

All in all, I see them as Transcaucasian, a multi-ethnic Caucasoid group in between Europeans and Middle Easterners. Somehow similar to the way I see Turkey, where some Turks are closer to Europeans and some Turks are closer to Middle Easterners.


I know nothing of Basque pronounciation, but the Chechen-Ichkerian writing has different x's.

x is pronounced as cyrillic х like kh
ẋ is pronounced harder than your regular h (in cyrillic, х1) and is now written хь

and in cyrillic кх becomes q
and then къ is written kh and pronounced like k-h

:)

There is obviously no relationship. The letter x is used in the languages of the Iberian Peninsula for the sound sh.

In Iberia, the Cyrillic x sound (similar to the Scottish sound in loch) only exists in modern Castilian. It didn't exist in old Spanish and it doesn't exist in any other Romance language. It isn't a Basque sound either, although some dialects use it.

[Albion]

Yes:


Georgia
Armenia


No:


Azerbaijan
North Caucasus


This is based on culture, not geography.

[Groenewolf]

So, are they Europe? Why or why not? Are some regions more "European" than others? Is this based on ethnicity, religion, politics...?

I have little knowledge of that region. However from what I know I have more the idea that it's a border region. So some countries might be more on the European side and others not.

[perikolez]

There are a good amount of muslim georgians in Adjaria and Turkey. I woudnt say that southern Caucasus countries are european. Armenians and most georgians are christians, but many arabs and asyrians are also cristians, and they are not europeans. Geographically Europe oficially finishes in Caucasus ,and Georgia and Armenia wouldnt be Europe. Phenotipically , georgians or armenians arent so diferent from neighbouring people. Economically theses countries are poor.

In my opinion Georgia,Armenia and Azebayan arent Europe.

[perikolez]

Yes:


Georgia
Armenia


No:


Azerbaijan
North Caucasus


This is based on culture, not geography.

Osetians or rusians from northern caucasus are at least so europeans as armenians-georgians. On the other hand, chechenians are lighest than georgians-armenians. Phenotipically-culturally is very dificult to say who is european and who not, but geographically north Caucasus is Europe, and South Caucasus is Asia.

[esaima]

I don't know much about them but Georgians and Armenians have very long christian tradition and Azerbajdjanians are Muslim. Thus iI'd like to say Georgians, Armenians are European or borderline European. At the same time question remains how different are "not European" Azeris IRL from Georgians and Armenians.
Politically seems that Georgia is looking now towards West, Azeris are looking towards Turkey and Armenia is looking towards Russia because it is afraid of Azeris and Turkey.

[Austin]

No. They aren't what I think of when I think of Europe. I don't see them being able to maintain independence in my lifetime.

[kamelin]

Racially, some of them could pass as South Europeans, particularly the Georgians. Culturally, very little, again Georgians come close. I would not let Caucasus be "part of Europe".

And btw, I'm against the "European Union" Government or the Euro, just to make that clear. All countries should be independent.

[Arne]

Chechens aren´t European
But why everyone wants to claim for the belonging to Europe ?

[Humanophage]

No, none of them are European. Dodecad was mentioned, and I don't understand how can someone still object after seeing this:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IHlgWAewnrc/TgDoYbyYUMI/AAAAAAAAD18/YlPm4vCjgq4/s1600/West_Eurasian_12.png

Everyone wants to be "part of Europe" because being regarded as non-European in their eyes means being regarded as uncivilised, and because European orientation means a progressive course in politics (e.g., the Turks need it to escape the Islamic world). Same with "the West" (yeah, Japan is Western, while Belarus isn't - riiight).

It is possible to be Muslim and European. Bosnians are a good example. It is impossible to be, say, a native North African and a European.

[d3cimat3d]

No, none of them are European. Dodecad was mentioned, and I don't understand how can someone still object after seeing this:


Well, Russians have a lot of east Asian elements, which would also make them non-European by some standards but I think what you're trying to say is that the West-Asian component in Caucasus people makes them non-European... & that is debatable, since "West-Asian" is found everywhere in Europe in non-trace amounts. It's a integral part of Europe.



It is possible to be Muslim and European. Bosnians are a good example. It is impossible to be, say, a native North African and a European.

Comparing the Caucasus with North Africa? :laugh2:


North Caucasians may not be more European than Georgians because they are Muslims.

I was referring to genetics rather than culture or religion. North-Caucasians are genetically semi-European, south Caucasians are not.

Anyways, I think the Caucasus should not be regarded as part of Europe. The Caucasus is the Caucasus.

[Eldritch]

Turkmenistan president 'sings own birthday song'

The president of isolated Turkmenistan marked his birthday by singing on national television a love song whose music and words he had penned himself.

http://www.hs.fi/kuvat/iso_webkuva/horizontal/1135267526812.jpeg

Turkmen President Gurbanguly Berdymukhamedov serenaded Turkmen viewers with the love song "For You, My White Flowers" on a special television show late Saturday celebrating his 54th birthday.

The song was also shown on a giant screen to a concert attended by 3,500 people in Ashgabat, with the audience standing and applauding the head of state during the song.

State television said his guitar and accordion have now been placed in the national museum as a "national asset and great treasure".

Berdymukhamedov is fond of showing off his skills away from politics and in April staged an impressive display of his horsemanship on the back of a rare Akhal-Teke horse.

Berdymukhamedov is seeking to very cautiously ease the country out of the isolation of his eccentric predecessor Saparmurat Niyazov who died in 2006.

He has cut back on some of the excesses of Niyazov, known as the Turkmenbashi, and last year removed a golden statue of his predecessor in Ashgabat which rotated to face the sun.

But observers have noted a budding cult of personality with giant banners of Berdymukhamedov's face hanging on government buildings while critics have complained that stabs at reform have amounted to little more than window dressing.

The first person to provide me with a functional link to a video of the performance will get to dictate my vote in the poll. Seriously.

[Arus]

http://oi56.tinypic.com/10ykh1l.jpg

[Sikeliot]

http://oi56.tinypic.com/10ykh1l.jpg

Get ready for a swarm of angry South Slavs..

[Raikaswinþs]

I consider them the outskirts of Europe. A region of a very ancient and remote people. They have been influenced culturally by greeks, iranians, turks and russians, but they still keep their unique personality which is neither Slavic nor Turkid or Iranic. I consider them to be the easternmost europeans. They are culturally distant from Iberians ,but so are Finnic peoples and Ural peoples, Scandinavians and Russians

[safinator]

http://oi56.tinypic.com/10ykh1l.jpg
You have a poor sense of Humour.

[Hess]

http://oi56.tinypic.com/10ykh1l.jpg

Does he know you're borrowing his map?
http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/militant_neonazi.jpg

[Saruman]

Get ready for a swarm of angry South Slavs..
We're the best trolls, just watch me.;)


http://oi56.tinypic.com/10ykh1l.jpg

If Turks get to those borders they'd crush your petty army in a day... ahh wait a minute..:lightbul:
3OckXhio5EM
FbDq3BekQOY
ozE5C42rfwo
I see... so you want to give your brothers the whole peninsula?

And what's that, you want whole Russia and Ukraine for your Turanic Hunnic Asian state? All that land for Pannonia? :rolleyes: It's not gonna work, it was enough for Schythians to lose vast areas to you Turanics, you're not getting west of Ural. Period.:cool:

[hajduk]

It was expected. South Slavs and their inferiority compex :D

[Eldritch]

THINGS I HAVE LEARNED FROM THIS THREAD:

1. Greece, the cradle of European civilization, is located in the Middle East.

2. :lightbul:

[Arus]

I see... so you want to give your brothers the whole peninsula?

I'm only trolling about. Though no, the Balkans and specifically Orthodoxy wasn't regarded as Europe by Hungarians of old.

Actually Hitler ( if it is to be viewed as a genuine work of Hitler, and not of Bormann ) described this Hungarian psyche well in his Table Talk.

''Kallay, the new Prime Minister of Hungary, came to me
with two "little requests" from Regent Horthy—namely, that
firstly the Lord God and secondly I myself should turn a
benevolent blind eye if the Hungarians started a fight with the
Rumanians. From the Hungarian point of view, said Kallay,
such a fight would be a struggle against Asia, for the frontier
between Europe and Asia was, in Hungarian eyes, the line
where the Orthodox Church ceased to hold sway. It was,
after all, he said, only the countries on this side of that frontier
which had played their part in European cultural development
and all its great accomplishments, such as the Reformation, the
Renaissance and the like.'' :D


And what's that, you want whole Russia and Ukraine for your Turanic Hunnic Asian state?

Asian?! Hungary has acted as the bulwark of European and Western Civilization for centuries. If anyone is entitled the label European, it is us.

http://oi55.tinypic.com/5ai4o2.jpg
http://oi52.tinypic.com/2u4n7yq.jpg

The shield of Europa.


it was enough for Schythians to lose vast areas to you Turanics

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. WE ARE SCYTHIANS!


THINGS I HAVE LEARNED FROM THIS THREAD:

1. Greece, the cradle of European civilization, is located in the Middle East.

2. :lightbul:

That was before Orthodoxy. :coffee:

[hajduk]

are you celebration81 from SF by any chance?
You're cool, a bit retarted, but I like you

[Arus]

are you celebration81 from SF by any chance?
You're cool, a bit retarted, but I like you

Me? Stormfront? Don't be ridiculous!

[Max]

http://oi56.tinypic.com/10ykh1l.jpg

You forgot Kaliningrad!:mad:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41260000/gif/_41260177_kaliningrad_map2_416.gif

[Arus]

You forgot Kaliningrad!:mad:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41260000/gif/_41260177_kaliningrad_map2_416.gif

Ostpreussen ist Deutsch.

[Max]

Maybe you should visit and see for yourself :D

[Osweo]

The first person to provide me with a functional link to a video of the performance will get to dictate my vote in the poll. Seriously.

Oh MAN. I So want to see it too! :D :clap:

I've been searching for AGES... :cry2


I did find many parodies and satires and so on, more or less funny...

The new Daddy of All Turkmen is shown in all his glory here;
CRVwQQQY-fI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRVwQQQY-fI&NR=1

A hilarious song ABOUT him;
jiqlEqsgYrE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiqlEqsgYrE

Some shit from his opponents, probably financed by our own dear Joe McCarthy... ;)
S7n8MKWyybs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7n8MKWyybs&feature=related

The poems in his honour are beautiful. :cry2
Дни Возрождения - словно букеты прекрасных цветов.
Они - молитва о ниспослании уважаемому Президенту долгих лет жизни и благоденствия.
В потоке исторических событий
Все важно, все значительно для нас.
Идти путем свершений и открытий
Он призывает каждый день и час.
Он сердце, совесть и душа народа,
Его надежда, РАЗУМ ЗОЛОТОЙ.
Так просто чудеса не происходят –
Они летят, как птицы, за мечтой.
И новые приходят к нам рассветы,
Крылато, искромётно мы живем.
Слова сияют несказанным светом
И как тут не залиться соловьем!
Звени, мой слог, что устали не знает,
Величие страны Он возродил.
Земля преображается родная,
И в ней истоки небывалых сил.
Великую эпоху Возрожденья
Душою окрыленной принимай!
Ведь каждый день нам дарит вдохновенье -
Ты счастье долгожданное встречай!
О человеке вся Его забота,
Вовек благословенны эти дни.
Ведя Его к невиданным высотам,
О Небо, ты всегда Его храни!
Идет по жизни избранных дорогой,
И сердцу мира дарствует тепло.
Дай новых сил Ему, - прошу я Бога
И золотое укрепи весло.
Гозель ШАГУЛЫЕВА, народный писатель Туркменистана.

[Saruman]

I'm only trolling about. Though no, the Balkans and specifically Orthodoxy wasn't regarded as Europe by Hungarians of old.

I don't care about Christianity. Jesus never existed.
Next, Orthodoxy kept many of pre-Christian traditions in greater level than Catholicism. Catholicism is less Indo-European in character with it's sometimes blind fanaticism.




Asian?! Hungary has acted as the bulwark of European and Western Civilization for centuries.
You were relevant until Mohacs yes, that's not "centuries".


If one is entitled the label European, it is us.
The shield of Europa.
*Out of troll mode*
OK, you defended Europe even after Mohacs so you have right for credits.




That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. WE ARE SCYTHIANS!
Your language is of Uralic origin, ancient Hungarians had clear mongoloid elements among them that occasionally still persist even today.
If you want to be Schythians for starters abandon your language. Language is a pillar of ethnicity, how can you claim being of ancient Indo-Europeans while speaking a language that is unrelated to them?

Now, speak Klingon if you wish for all I care but don't distort facts.

[Osweo]

I don't care about Christianity. Jesus never existed.
Next, Orthodoxy kept many of pre-Christian traditions in greater level than Catholicism. Catholicism is less Indo-European in character with it's sometimes blind fanaticism.
Hmm... Perhaps that's true on a Croats vs. Serbs scale, given that Croat Catholicism was rather less a 'homegrown' thing than Pravoslavie in Serbia, but there are parts of the Catholic world that preserve as much as the Serbs do of the old ways.

Carry on! :p

[Arus]

I don't care about Christianity. Jesus never existed.

Spoken by a true materialist.


Next, Orthodoxy kept many of pre-Christian traditions in greater level than Catholicism. Catholicism is less Indo-European in character with it's sometimes blind fanaticism.

I'm not fond of either modern Christian denominations. Modern Christianity is a result of Christs' followers misinterpreting his true teachings and sebsequently ruining them, aswell as Judaic infilitration ( Paul/Saul ) in which form it spread throughout the Roman Empire, and the world. Christianity, aswell as Islam has to return to it's Gnostic roots. I am drawn to Catharism, among others.


You were relevant until Mohacs yes, that's not "centuries".

13th century - 17th century = ''centuries''.


Your language is of Uralic origin, ancient Hungarians had clear mongoloid elements among them that occasionally still persist even today.
If you want to be Schythians for starters abandon your language. Language is a pillar of ethnicity, how can you claim being of ancient Indo-Europeans while speaking a language that is unrelated to them?

The Uralic/Finno-Ugric theory is a product of Habsburg/Jewish false propaganda to destroy the soul of our once great nation. Your mistake is to believe the Scythians were some sort of homogenous people with one uniform language, it was not, a great variety of people within the Scythian empire were regarded as and regarded themselves as Scythian, same is said about the Huns and their empire, it was more of a political alliance than an ethnic group. The original Scythian language was agglutinative and descended from Sumerian ( also agglutinative ) Iranic tribes joined in first later to give birth to Poles, Croats, among others. Scythians were amongst the horse archer civilizations, identitical to the lifestyle of the Huns, Avars and Magyars showing a Scythian continuation in the Hungarian nation, aswell as their common tradition of wearing gold as armour and on garment and as jewelery. Fun fact, the proto Hungarians as they raided Europe called themselves 'Szittya' and various folklore, Hungarian and otherwise, prove close relation with Scythians. It is an undisputed fact. Also R1a1 ( Scythian ) is as high, if not higher in Hungary than any Slavic nation.

Choke on it.

[Osweo]

The Uralic/Finno-Ugric theory is a product of Habsburg/Jewish false propaganda to destroy the soul of our once great nation.
Not much of a soul if it's so easily undermined? :confused:

You do count to ten just like the Mansi, though... ;)



The original Scythian language was agglutinative and descended from Sumerian ( also agglutinative )
LoL, any proof for the caricature of Scythian?


Fun fact, the proto Hungarians as they raided Europe called themselves 'Szittya' and various folklore, Hungarian and otherwise, prove close relation with Scythians.
THAT at least is very interesting. Any source or quotations from chronicles or whatever to show us?

[Saruman]

Spoken by a true materialist.

I do have such tendencies but spiritual ones as well. I strive to be Indo-European for the most part in that regard.
But primarily I referred to historical Jesus for whose existence I failed to find sufficient proof.



I'm not fond of either modern Christian denominations. Modern Christianity is a result of Christs' followers misinterpreting his true teachings and sebsequently ruining them, aswell as Judaic infilitration ( Paul/Saul ) in which form it spread throughout the Roman Empire, and the world. Christianity, aswell as Islam has to return to it's Gnostic roots. I am drawn to Catharism, among others.

I found dualist gnosticism interesting too, partly because it existed in my lands (Bosnia for ex.). Well according to my view on that Paul also never existed but was in fact Marcion. I saw this other gnostic Marcionite who claims that this world is corrupted and that procreation is degenerated. Jahweh is the evil God, and Jesus the son of a good one per such teachings.
So Judaic infiltration of Marcion? He hated the Jewish torah, and Jahweh. He placed anti-Jewish norms in Christianity.



13th century - 17th century = ''centuries''.
Ottoman-Hungarian wars formally lasted from 1366-1526, and even less if serious engagements are counted only. I'm being maybe too strict here but I speak of Hungary as an independent strong nation.




The Uralic/Finno-Ugric theory is a product of Habsburg/Jewish false propaganda to destroy the soul of our once great nation. Your mistake is to believe the Scythians were some sort of homogenous people with one uniform language, it was not, a great variety of people within the Scythian empire were regarded as and regarded themselves as Scythian, same is said about the Huns and their empire, it was more of a political alliance than an ethnic group.
That is correct, but still when speaking of them I usually refer to ancient ones, the core.


The original Scythian language was agglutinative and descended from Sumerian ( also agglutinative )
Like Osweo I'd like more material on that.


Fun fact, the proto Hungarians as they raided Europe called themselves 'Szittya' and various folklore, Hungarian and otherwise, prove close relation with Scythians.
Interesting, and same as above I'd like to see more on that.


Also R1a1 ( Scythian ) is as high, if not higher in Hungary than any Slavic nation.

It's present in Hungarians in a solid amount.

[Raskolnikov]

I saw this other gnostic Marcionite who claims that this world is corrupted and that procreation is degenerated.
Funny parallel between ancient gnostics and modern agnostics.

[Saruman]

Funny parallel between ancient gnostics and modern agnostics.

I present you someone with a keen understanding of Christianity!
:D He's a marcionite, and I must agree with his positions on authethicity of various texts. And he as a real old gnostic, considers death a blessing, departing the evil world of Jahweh.:D This is it seems to me what old Christianity was about, so any Christian believer should read this and understand what is real Christianity and whether he/she wants it.:)

Jesus is to be understood allegorically, not historically.
Those who try to look for God in sapace and time
are devoid of any faith in God.

Klaus Schilling
____________________________________
Quote from: Psyblog on December 04, 2007, 03:36:15 AM
Ah, yes, another gaping hole for the Intelligent Design argument.
This is one of those moments where I really hope the Rapture myth turns out to be true.

The rapture is to be understood allegorically,
not literally as rightg-wing extremists like Churchlurk do.


Klaus Schilling

_______________________________

Of course this could only have been done sloppily. If Saul was Herodian, he was exactly not a pharisee as claimed by the bwah1New Testament.

___________________________________________

Each of the works of Ignatius, Polykarp, and Clement shows Eusebian footprints.

_________________________________________________
Is Pliny's reference to Christians authentic?

The whole epistle is a fraudulent forgery from front to back.

____________________________

Spiritual values are necessary, because real ones are foul, perverse, corrupt, and ephemerous.
Thus Jesus is docetic, not real as charlatans like Holding try to trick you into believing.

Klaus Schilling

_________________________________

Men are the work of evil demons,
only charlatanic hucksters believe in them being God's work.

Klaus Schillling
_____________________________________

There's no such thing as a year of the birth of Jesus,
as Jesus exists out of space and time,
as denied by right-wing hucksters like Churchmurk.

Klaus Schilling
_______________________________________
The birth of Jesus is to be understood allegorically, not literally as right-wing fundies like Churchfolk do.

Klaus Schilling
_________________________________________
of course proper Christianity is necessarily plain docetist,
and this is compatible with an allegorical Christ
as proved e.g. by G. Massey.H.Raschke, T. Freke, and Acharya S.

Klaus Schilling
_____________________________________________
Quote from: Celsus on December 25, 2007, 04:45:05 PM
Faith, hope and charity are base values.
No, the base value is Gnosis

Klaus Schilling
________________________________________
Quote from: Celsus on December 23, 2007, 12:07:58 PM
Is the development of your knowledge about Christianity that important if he never existed anyway?

of course, as Jesus is something that eternally exists, yet never existed.
That's a question of metaphysics, not of history, as false Christians like Churchdork try to trick you to believe

Klaus Schilling
__________________________________________________ ____________
Quote from: AntiGodSquad on September 20, 2007, 07:32:59 AM
There's one on the board right now, goes by the handle "Churchwork".

Churchwork is an antichristian,
like all those who foolishly beieve into a human Jesus
behind any of the NT sayings.

Klaus Schilling
__________________________________________________ __
Quote from: Apollonius Tyanaeus on December 25, 2007, 10:01:02 AM

Where did you get that info? Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch and Polycarp of Smyrna all mention Paul by name,


their works are fraudulent forgeries,
as denied by naive superstitionists and vicious misguiders only

Klaus Schilling
__________________________________________________ _
Quote
Of course there are other versions of the mythicist case, but Doherty's model is by far the most thoroughly worked out and most plausible,

all nonsense. only those may be considered plausible who refrain from believing into a historical Paul
or first-century canonical gospels, as those are charlataneous superstitions.

Klaus Schilling
__________________________________________________ ______
Quote from: Noble Savage on December 23, 2007, 10:29:42 AM

Isn't positivism the belief that the only knowledge is scientific knowledge?
approximately

Quote
Hardly the philosophy for a Christian.

Holding is a fake Christian,
like all those who fail to understand the gospel story as a metaphysical allegory.


Klaus Schilling
__________________________________________________ __
Quote from: Sean Mooney on November 21, 2006, 11:44:02 PM
We dicussed elsewhere that Jesus is God, the I AM, which is the "I am the Lord your God" of the Old Testament, right? Will anyone argue that Jesus is God?
Of course Jesus is a God,
but a good (chrestos) one,
completely different from the diabolic demon that the Pharisees dare to call their only God.

Klaus Schilling
______________________________________

Quote from: liz on December 21, 2007, 04:43:20 PM
He's also going to throw the she's a smoker and I'm allergic into his defense (She was imposing on his right to breath)

Habitual smoking is incompatible with proper Christianity.
That lass is thus an imposter.

Klaus Schilling
_____________________________________________
Quote from: Minimalist on December 06, 2007, 12:59:18 PM
It shows up in 2 Corinthians which is generally regarded as one of the "genuine" epistles....whatever that means.

It means nothing,
for only fools and fraudulent hucksters propagate the lie of genuine epistles.

Klaus Schilling
__________________________________________________ _
A chrestos is a benefactor.
Thus Marcion correctly called the Saviour Chrestos, as its the envoy of the good God,
as opposed to the tyrannic imposter and enforcer of inhumane law and order that Pharisees worship.
Christians are those who worship the good God.

Klaus Schilling
__________________________________________________ __
Quote from: Noble Savage on December 13, 2007, 06:38:00 PM
Amen just means "so it is". Non-believers can use it.

No, amen is an invocation of the God Ammon-Ra, thus only believers may use it.

Klaus Schilling
________________________________________
Quote from: Noble Savage on December 19, 2007, 02:41:35 PM
Did Seu misspell "Christus" (the annointed one)? Or does that word mean something else?

Christos with iota is a deliberate corruption of Chrestos with eta.

Klaus Schilling
__________________________________________________ ___
Quote from: Minimalist on December 18, 2007, 12:08:35 PM
Sorry, Klaus, but I just can't see the logic

that's because Minimist lacks the capacity of superior logic thinking.
especially concerning the dialectic logics of Christian dogmatics,
unlike Polydore Hochart.

Klaus Schilling
_________________________________________________
The epistles Trajan/Plinius are a fraudulent renaissance-time forgery
as already known by Polydore Hochart.

Only right-wing idiots see anything authentic in them.

Klaus Schilling
_______________________________________________
Quote from: The Fieldy on December 15, 2007, 02:46:26 AM
and of course, a whore gave birth to you.

marital intercourse is as much fornicatuion as prostitution,
as correctly figured by Marcion.

Klaus Schilling
__________________________________________________ ___
Quote from: The Fieldy on December 13, 2007, 07:11:49 PM
the opinion that the TF is a forgery is open to debate. here's a great site done by a jew (non-christian in case you can't get that which means impartial) that explains why it should be considered authentic
http://members.aol.com/fljosephus/home.htm

he's as much an enemy of Christ as Fieldy,
because only blasphemers believe in a historical Jesus,
whereas Jesus is impossibly found in space and time.
Jesus never was, but always is.

Klaus Schilling
_______________________________________________
Quote from: Apollonius Tyanaeus on December 12, 2007, 04:54:00 AM
Massey has no credibility in the field of Egyptology, and is regarded as one of the chief charlatans along with ones like Higgins and Kuhn.


only fraudulent deceivers like Holding call Kuhn, Massey, and Higgins charlatans.
They do that in order to distract from their own charlatany of spreading the belief
into a non-mystic-metaphysical understanding of the gospels.

Klaus Schilling
_____________________________________________
Quote from: Celsus on December 10, 2007, 03:27:43 AM
The Christianity of Marcion is gnostic.
which is original Christianity, as opposed to the vulgarised version of the churches and the Judaisers
____________________________________________
Quote from: Celsus on December 09, 2007, 08:42:03 PM
You arw wrong. The word Christian in Aramaic is Notzri or Naztri.

all fraudulent deception. the association of christianity with those Notzri is a Catholic fraud.
The proper christianity of Marcion has nothing to do with that.

Klaus Schilling
_______________________________________________
Quote from: Celsus on December 06, 2007, 08:31:44 PM
to fit the historical Saul of Tarsus

a fraudulent fiction by Churchworkers

Klaus Schilling
_________________________________________
Quote from: Noble Savage on October 01, 2007, 09:04:26 AM
In your book, you mention that Paul never quoted Jesus except for one "dubious reference" to the last supper. Can you say why the lone quote from Paul is a dubious reference?

everything in the epistles of the fictitious Paul is fabrication

Klaus Schilling
__________________________________________________ _
Quote from: Epicurus on August 27, 2007, 08:44:09 PM
Hi Ken,after reading your book,(and very good it is too)I have question about Luke,or should I say the author of Luke.
You assert that Luke was a Greek follower of Paul,yet recent articles on your forum suggest that" Paul" was a fabrication,so where does this leave Luke?

Paul and Luke areboth fabrications.

Klaus Schilling
_______________________________________________
Quote from: Churchwork on June 28, 2007, 12:31:09 AM
Satan needs no reason for his hostility to God of the Bible, but why would you want to be like that?

the god of the bible is a vicious demon who loves flesh and blood,
and incites mankind into fornication.
But what soweth to the flesh brings corruption, and flesh and blood can't inherit the reign of the True God.

Klaus Schilling
__________________________________________________
Quote from: Churchwork on July 01, 2007, 02:24:25 AM
Listen very carefully because it is a matter of salvation and eternal life or eternal separation from your creator to be sent to hell:

the creator is a satanic demon,
and separation from that diabolic essence is the ultimate bliss

Klaus Schilling
__________________________________________________ ___-

Quote from: marian93 on November 22, 2007, 02:34:17 PM
.Paul of Tarsus -
this is a fictional person

Quote
they were not exactly the "creme de la creme" of their society - viz Paul's attitude towards secular wisdom, sexuality, women etc...

the attitude expressed in the Marcionite part of the Pauline epistles is coompletely justified

Klaus Schilling
__________________________________________________
Quote from: Mako on December 04, 2007, 03:11:55 PM
The first non-canonical mention of Jesus as any kind of a teacher comes from 1 Clement (96-105 CE),

this letter is a fraudulent late Roman Catholic forgery,
believed as authentic by naive superstitionists only.

Quote
Only with Ignatius (about 107 CE) came the first mentions of Mary and Joseph.

that's another fraudulent forgery of the rifdiculous sort
that requires immense inertia, folly, or comicity to believe in.


Klaus Schilling
__________________________________________________ _
Quote from: Minimalist on December 07, 2007, 11:45:07 AM
Quote
so, in essence he is half man because born of a woman, but has some tampered genes of god,

Just like Hercules.

God has no such evil, perverse thing as genes.

Jesus and Hercules are the same.
They have to be understood allegorically, not historically as Churchmurk does.

Klaus Schilling.
__________________________________________________ ____
Quote from: Onias on December 04, 2007, 05:41:57 PM
But wasn't Marcion the first person to mention Paul, and didn't Tertullian and Irenaeus learn about Paul from Marcion. . . and then redact Paul to be compliant to Peter and James?

Onias

Sure, just Marcion's writings are only known indirectly
through the works of above mentioned church fathers.

Klaus Schilling
________________________________________________
Quote from: marian93 on November 20, 2007, 02:20:56 PM
Klaus, I am just wondering... should we feel sorry for you? I think that you should find a good woman that will make you happy.

all humbug. women only pervert and corrupt men, and vice versa.
many are deceived by that bitter poison.

Quote
Indeed, if life is a tragedy in and of itself, why are you still here?
vulgar suicide is pointless

Klaus Schilling
__________________________________________________
Quote
Some people make an interesting assumption: Satan represents the instinct of life within us all. Violence and aggression are despisable things, but they are part of our instinct: animals must be violent and aggressive to thrive in this hostile world. Selfishness is bad, but it helps us to move our genes forward to the next generation. Luxury comes from the instinct of procreation... and so goes on.

this underlines the unconditional evilness of genes and procreation.

Quote
Evil is a man-made concept,
no, the concept of evilness is preexistant,
whether called Pan or Ahriman or Satan
as they also rule animals

Quote
we call "evil" things that bring us pain and "good" things that bring us pleasure.
no, pleasure-bringing things are also evil,
because those things only appear sweet on the outside,
but are full of bitter poison inside

Quote
Now, take a closer look: Nature can be called evil for all suffering that life causes,

nature is evil

Quote
an THE XTIAN GOD may be the most evil being of the universe

no, the Old Testamental God is that evil being,
the Christian God has nothing to do with nature
and is thus nowhere near evil, but redeems from that evil


Quote
Schopenhauer was a great phillosopher, but his way of looking so much at the dark side of life bugs me a bit.

the dark side is the only one that exists,
all other views are deceptive

Quote
None of us has chosen to come to this world, but now that we are here, we should try to make our lives worth living, instead of an endless mourning.
no, that'd be corrupt and fraudulent.

Klaus Schilling
__________________________________________________ _
Quote from: Churchwork on June 25, 2007, 05:33:56 PM
Though Satan said Jesus never existed, he could not find any evidence for his accusation. Neither can you.
Satan worshippers are those who believe in a historical Jesus,
as they propagate an institution which glorifies the works of Satan,
especially marriage and procreation.

Klaus Schilling
___________________________________

[Amapola]

Jesus never existed.

Are you claiming that a group of peasants such a long time ago created,without having a leader, in a generation, a personality so powerful and attractive etc and sometimes concepts that changed the course of human history and that are even complex to understand for the present man? :rolleyes2: for the sake of entertaiment? :eek:

That would be a more incredible miracle that any recorded in the Gospel, actually!

Unless you also deny Christians? :D

[Amapola]

I do have such tendencies but spiritual ones as well.

I don't know if you realize that materialism and spiritual is a contradiction :thumb001: One of the reasons why materialism failed and it's failing again is it lack of spiritual trascendece, along with a depressing fatalism.

[Amapola]

I found dualist gnosticism interesting too, partly because it existed in my lands (Bosnia for ex.). Well according to my view on that Paul also never existed but was in fact Marcion. I saw this other gnostic Marcionite who claims that this world is corrupted and that procreation is degenerated. Jahweh is the evil God, and Jesus the son of a good one per such teachings. So Judaic infiltration of Marcion? He hated the Jewish torah, and Jahweh. He placed anti-Jewish norms in Christianity.
Lol what? if he didn't exist how he could have been Marcian?

Yes, that is what Gnostics do: providing evil with "essence".

One of the reasons why Gnosticism failed was his initation character (versus the Christian universalitiy), in other words, the truth would only be reveled to an elite of initiation people. So, they would call themselves "direct witnesses of Christ", which is funny given your Christ denial. A contradiction similar to being materialist and spiritual at the same time.

[Raikaswinþs]

Spoken by a true materialist.



I'm not fond of either modern Christian denominations. Modern Christianity is a result of Christs' followers misinterpreting his true teachings and sebsequently ruining them, aswell as Judaic infilitration ( Paul/Saul )


yeah Chrisianity has had many jewish moles...starting for...let´s see oh wait! Jesus Christ!

this perfid jews, creating even a religion to subjugate those they dont consider pure enough to be jews

[Volkodav]

Leave it to Аnus to change the subject of discution.

[Odoacer]

Basically, in terms of geography, only the North Caucasus regions could be regarded as European. The indigenous peoples, however, are at most peripheral to Europeans proper both racially & culturally. The Transcaucasian nations are not European, nor are any peoples south of the Caucasus range.

[Kurdi Mede]

Well they speak indo-european langauges in the caucasus...and they do have high frequencies in R1b and R1a, espeicially Ossetians.

[Austrvegr]

Well they speak indo-european langauges in the caucasus...and they do have high frequencies in R1b and R1a, espeicially Ossetians.

LOL.

[Kurdi Mede]

I don't know much about them but Georgians and Armenians have very long christian tradition and Azerbajdjanians are Muslim. Thus iI'd like to say Georgians, Armenians are European or borderline European. At the same time question remains how different are "not European" Azeris IRL from Georgians and Armenians.
Politically seems that Georgia is looking now towards West, Azeris are looking towards Turkey and Armenia is looking towards Russia because it is afraid of Azeris and Turkey.

Your forgetting Ossetians, they are also Christian and a proud Iranic nation.

[askra]

at school i studied that the eastern european bounderies are the Ural Mountains, the Bosphorus Strait and the Caucasus,
yes, at least the northern part of Caucasus.

[Wasek]

Europeans are white Caucasians, but it's not simple to say it Caucasus is Europe or Asia, for me even Russia is not Europe!!

[Gaztelu]

North Caucasians such as Chechens, Ingushetians, and Dagestanis are honorary non-Europeans. They have earned the right.

Ossetians are European because they are Indo-European and predominately Orthodox Christian.

Georgia is neither Asian nor European, so I will simply label it as Caucasian.

[Dario Argento]

North Caucasians such as Chechens, Ingushetians, and Dagestanis are honorary non-Europeans. They have earned the right.

Ossetians are European because they are Indo-European and predominately Orthodox Christian.

Georgia is neither Asian nor European, so I will simply label it as Caucasian.

Yeah, White middle eastern terrorist response to wiggers.

[Hurrem sultana]

Old thread,but interesting :thumb001:


North Caucasians such as Chechens, Ingushetians, and Dagestanis are honorary non-Europeans. They have earned the right.

Ossetians are European because they are Indo-European and predominately Orthodox Christian.

Georgia is neither Asian nor European, so I will simply label it as Caucasian.


So they are european only because of christianity?

i have seen only 2-3 chechens in my life,,they looked european to me,this one lady i knew..was even blonde.On average i would say they look similar to albanians...

[Ushtari]

So they are european only because of christianity?

i have seen only 2-3 chechens in my life,,they looked european to me,this one lady i knew..was even blonde.On average i would say they look similar to albanians...
Oh no you didnt https://static.flashback.org/img/smilies2/rant.gif!

:p:D

I actually know one Chechen and he dont look European(neither does his siblings). Sure, in pigmentation he doesn't look any different from average south-European, but his facial features are foreign.

However, i saw a documentary about Chechens a while ago and many of them look like regular Balkanoids.

[Hurrem sultana]

I got you :P

these people could pass as bosnian to me,,,many bosnians look like this in the villages

http://documents.wfp.org/stellent/groups/public/documents/newsroom/wfp077193.jpg

[Sikeliot]

I got you :P

these people could pass as bosnian to me,,,many bosnians look like this in the villages

http://documents.wfp.org/stellent/groups/public/documents/newsroom/wfp077193.jpg


More Greek than Bosnian to me.

[Hurrem sultana]

maybe but there are many bosnians that look like that,specially the rural part of eastern Bosnia

[Eva]

I wouldn't consider them Middle Eastern. They are closer to Europe in many ways than they are to true Middle Eastern nations such as Lebanon or Iraq. Their identities are often debated since they are former Soviet republics and lie geographically in Asia. I think they are as European as North Africans are Middle Eastern. Just countries that form a part of a "greater" region, so Georgia and Armenia would fit in "greater Europe" but not "Europe" just as Morocco and Algeria would fit in the "greater Middle East" even though they are in North Africa and since the "Middle East" is a term used to describe Anatolia, the Levant, Mesopotamia, Arabian peninsula and Persia. Armenians are genetically very close to Turks and Georgians have a high West Asian component, culturally they are different and more similar to Serbs. Azerbaijan on the other hand might be considered part of the greater Middle East because of their Iranian and Turkish influence.

What do you mean by saying that Armenians are genetically close to Turks? Armenians have nothing to do with mongoloid blood. The Genetic studies showed that there has been no invaders in the Armenian DNA in the last 4000 years. You perhaps mean that Turks have Armenian blood, that's right. It happened after they invaded the Armenian plateau, the Byzantine Empire and during the 1000-800 years (mainly by force) mixed with the natives. And it's no wonder that they have our Rmenian R1b now.

As to Armenians they have fought for millenia so as to keep their genes pure. Armenians are not mixed to the degree that such a great homogeneity has been created among Armenians that only an Armenian can be a donor for another Armenian. A special center has been created for this purpose. Whereas Armenians can be donor for other ethnic groups.

[Eva]

I'd say Georgians are the purest South Caucasians. Azerbaijan has always had strong ties to Iran, and Armenia to Anatolia. However Northern Caucasus are mostly isolates, as their languages show. Some sort of Asian basques they are.

Yes, Georgians can be viewed as Caucasian peoples.
Armenians are the people of the Armenian Highland. After the Genocide losing most of their lands, Armenia somewhat became only a part of the Caucasus. And as the main propaganda of the Soviet Union was equality; Armenians, being the ancient Indo-Europeans, indigeneous people of Ararat, whose kingdoms and state unions are mentioned already in the 2nd millenium BC, were to be put in the same geographycal position with Azeris - a group of tatar-turkic people that formed a state in 1918, and thus viewed as one entity lol!

[StonyArabia]

the same geographycal position with Azeris - a group of tatar-turkic people that formed a state in 1918, and thus viewed as one entity lol!

Azeris are not Tatars, although they are Turkic, they are part of the Oghuz Turks who mixed with the local Iranic groups. As well they are Shia Muslims unlike the Tatars who are Sunni or Orthodox Christian and belong to the Kipchak Turk group. The related group to the Tatars in the Caucasus would be the Karchay-Balkars who also belong to the Kipchak Turk group, and are Sunni Muslim but they also claim to be descendants of the Alans. It was well known that Crimean Tatar missionaries came to the North Caucasus, and this how Islamification began, as well the Circassian women often served as consorts to the Crimean Khans who were often prized for their beauty. The Balkars although being related to the Crimean Khans would mount a heavy resistance to them, and maintain some relationship with the Georgians and Russians. However resistance from the Balkars and other North Caucasian groups against Czarist Russia expansion to the Caucasus was a heavy one. By Stalinist times most of the Balkars were deported to Central Asia but many chose to flee to Turkey and the Arab world.

Yet the Azeris have completely different history and are tied more to Persia than to the so called "Tatar" groups. Although the Balkars belong to the same linguistic group, religion and share similar cultural attributes they are not Tatar either.

[Lithium]

There is nothing European about them. Nor culturally nor geographically.

[hajduk]

There is nothing European about them. Nor culturally nor geographically.

Any evidence for this astounding statement?
I voted 3

[Sikeliot]

So today's Armenia is not the original homeland of the Armenian people? What it sounded like in the above posts is, Armenians lost most of their original land, which WAS in what is now considered the Middle East, but they all moved up into the Caucasus to what was all of their land that was left.

This, along with genetics, makes Armenians a Middle Eastern people then. Georgians, that's debatable.

[StonyArabia]

So today's Armenia is not the original homeland of the Armenian people? What it sounded like in the above posts is, Armenians lost most of their original land, which WAS in what is now considered the Middle East, but they all moved up into the Caucasus to what was all of their land that was left.

They did not move to the Caucasus, they were already part of the Caucasus, however their land was more Anatolian than Caucasian, and so are their genetics. They are part of the original Anatolian group. However what was formerly known as Armenia became in majority to be the new nation of Turkey. As the newly Islamized Turkic tribes invaded the region and intermarried with them. Well those that did not intermarry and stayed Christian were now confined to the Caucasus. The areas of what is now Kurdistan in Turkey were formerly Armenian lands. This was because the Turks encouraged the nomadic Iranic tribes collectively known as Kurds to confine the Armenians whom were allied with the Russians, and the Russians have already defeated the Caucasian tribes that were allied to the Turks and now began to expand Southwards almost into Anatolia. The events that helped to reduce Armenia was the initial Turkic invasions, and many adopted the new identity language, culture and religion, the other was the Russian-Cacausian war which was related to the Turko-Russian wars.


This, along with genetics, makes Armenians a Middle Eastern people then. Georgians, that's debatable.

Armenians are clearly an Anatolian people. They are not related to other groups of the Caucasus like the Adyghe, Chechens, or even the Turkic speaking Karachay-Balkars. The only difference between them and today's Turks is religion and their is some Asiatic admixture in the Turks of today. In fact they are similar to one another and share common ancestry not in the too distant past.

[Eva]

So today's Armenia is not the original homeland of the Armenian people? What it sounded like in the above posts is, Armenians lost most of their original land, which WAS in what is now considered the Middle East, but they all moved up into the Caucasus to what was all of their land that was left.

This, along with genetics, makes Armenians a Middle Eastern people then. Georgians, that's debatable.

Where Armenians live now has always been part of the greater Armenia, there's nothing like moving up. Armenia is situated between the Middle East and Europe, that is the Armenian Highland (Anatolia). Culturally Armenian culture has nothing to do with the Arabic, nor genetically. The geographycal position does not define the genes. If Boers live in Africa, it does not make them black people racially.

[Eva]

The only difference is religion? Turks have absorbed all of the Greek, Armenian, Roman and other cultures. They have mixed with Greeks, Armenians, Slavs, Assyrians etc. I can understand being compared with an ethnic group, but not a hybrid people.

[Tabiti]

I've always seen Caucasus as a different and unique zone, which doesn't belong to any other no Europe, neither Asia. Caucasians should be proud of that fact and keep it.

[Eva]

http://celebbabylaundry.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/keeping-up-with-the-kardashians-20080306085041322_640w.jpg


http://cdn.fd.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/Daffy-Duck-masturbating.jpg

Yes Kim has the talent of drawing attention. While others are trying hard, she's getting it by almost doing nothing. But it does not make her the representative of Armenians lol. The only 100% blooded Armenian in their family is their father's mother, who is a typical Armenian woman.
On the whole there are some things I like about Kim, but she's way too far from the ideal Armenian woman type.

It's just people nowadays are somewhat obssessed about her. And wouldn't care let's say listen to Aram Khachaturyan, one of the cornerstones of Armenian culture and condensed identity.. Instead it's Kim everywhere lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86v05kSTZ3Y&feature=channel_video_title

[Han Cholo]

The only difference is religion? Turks have absorbed all of the Greek, Armenian, Roman and other cultures. They have mixed with Greeks, Armenians, Slavs, Assyrians etc. I can understand being compared with an ethnic group, but not a hybrid people.

Assyrians are basically Armenians genetically save slightly higher SouthWest Asian admixture. Southwest Asian admixture is also very present in Armenians, more so than in their Azeri and Georgian neighbors.

Armenians are not very similar to Arabs but they're pretty much similar to Northern Mesopotamians. It's likely Semitic languages started their expansion from Armenia/Northern Mesopotamia/East Anatolia.

[Eva]

Assyrians are basically Armenians genetically save slightly higher SouthWest Asian admixture. Southwest Asian admixture is also very present in Armenians, more so than in their Azeri and Georgian neighbors.

Armenians are not very similar to Arabs but they're pretty much similar to Northern Mesopotamians. It's likely Semitic languages started their expansion from Armenia/Northern Mesopotamia/East Anatolia.


The thing is not European union here, that's something people up there are deciding or have already decided. It's something more political and economical. And I am at the stage of shaping opinion in those spheres. But the most important thing, at least for me, is the nation's true history, identity and ancestry. And generally touching any sphere one should give a whole description of what he means.

According to http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Armenian Y-DNA Haplogroup
I = Nordic, Pre-Celto-Germanic, Sardinian, Basque, Dinaric, Danubian=4,
R1a = Balto-Slavic, Mycenaean Greek, Macedonian=8,
R1b = Italic, Celtic, Germanic/ Hittite, Armenian=28,
G = Caucasian, Greco-Anatolian=11,
J2 = Mesopotamian, Minoan Greek, Phoenician=22,
J1 = Semitic- Arabic, Jewish=0,
E = North & East African, Near Eastern, Balkanic=5,
T = Near Eastern, Egyptian, Ethiopian, Arabic=6,
L = 4,
Q = 0,
N = 2,
others=12

[Eva]

The studies on mongoloid DNA which come to confirm that Turks can be affiliated with Armenians but not the other way around.

Mongoloid HG26 YDNA in 89 Armenians frequency was 2%. 43 Scots: 2%. 30 Germans: 3%. 64 Swedish Gotlanders: 1%. 99 Italians: 6% (Rosser ZH, Zerjal T, Hurles ME, etc.). Armenians also generally have typical European YDNA haplogroups (I, R1b).
Now looking at the mtDNA, 192 Armenians have shown Asian defining mtDNA haplogroup M (found very commonly in Mongoloids and Indians) in frequency of 0%. Compared to 388 Turks (M frequency: 4.1%), 139 Georgians (2.2%) and 187 Ossetes (2.1%). Ref.: Tambets K., Kivisiild T., Metspalu E, etc.: http://evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Tambets2000.pdf


Some more studies on Armenian and other peoples' DNA
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Genomic_Europeanism

And some more concerning the haplogroup Rb1 which is also considered by many scholars to have originated in the Armenian Highland.

R1b1a2a represents the largest haplogroup for Armenians in general and project members in particular. It has been estimated to be 8,000 years old. According to Vince Vizachero who runs the haplogroup R-ht35 Project: "From prior analysis, it appears that R1b1a2a moved north and west into Europe quite rapidly. And the data we are seeing in our project are consistent with that: the oldest forms of R1b1a2a are found at high frequency in the "homeland" of SW Asia and places with the most contact with that region. The closer we get to NW Europe, the more we observe the youngest, derived forms of R1b1a2a." The current distribution of this haplogroup shows a heavy concentration in Western Europe (from the Northern part of the Iberian peninsula to Ireland and England via France and Belgium) as can be seen in this MAP. The map corroborates Vince's conclusions as it shows a 15% concentration of R1b1a2a in a Northern swath of Anatolia - with a peak of 25% in the middle of the swath. If you sample only Armenians, you get a concentration of 30% of R1b1a2. If you sample only Armenians from Karabakh and Syunik you get concentrations of more than 40%.

[Eva]

Assyrians are basically Armenians genetically save slightly higher SouthWest Asian admixture. Southwest Asian admixture is also very present in Armenians, more so than in their Azeri and Georgian neighbors.

Armenians are not very similar to Arabs but they're pretty much similar to Northern Mesopotamians. It's likely Semitic languages started their expansion from Armenia/Northern Mesopotamia/East Anatolia.

I have my great respect for Christian and ancient people like Assyrians, and my heart breaks when I learn that they and Coptic people, and other Christians in the Middle East are being persecuted by muslims and no one seems to care about it.
If Semitic languages originated in Armenia, in the same way all of the languages originated in Armenia lol after the Great Flood. It is generally assumed that Noah's two sons Sam and Ham went to the south, and Japeth remained in the Armenian plateau and the region around Caucasus.
As the aboriginal people- Armenians speak an Indo-European language, it means that the Indo-European language originated in here. And it has quite a serious scientific support.

It's not by chance that the Armenian language, in contrast to other Indo‐European languages, has all phonetic sounds common to all Indo‐European languages. 

[d3cimat3d]

Armenians can be traced back to medieval Cilicia - southern Turkey, northern Levant. I'm against Armenians calling themselves Caucasians, since they don't live on either slope of the the greater Caucasus & never have. Armenians on a MDS plot:

http://i1234.photobucket.com/albums/ff420/AramaicDNA/MidEastMap_Eurogenes_MDS_102511.jpg

Pulling to the south because of their mild S-W Asian (Arab) admixture - that Georgians lack. Georgians even have less S-W Asian than Balkan people.



If Semitic languages originated in Armenia, in the same way all of the languages originated in Armenia lol after the Great Flood. 

Semitic languages originated in the Levant.

[Eva]

Armenians can be traced back to medieval Cilicia - southern Turkey, northern Levant. I'm against Armenians calling themselves Caucasians, since they don't live on either slope of the the greater Caucasus & never have. Armenians on a MDS plot:


Pulling to the south because of their mild S-W Asian (Arab) admixture - that Georgians lack. Georgians even have less S-W Asian than Balkan people.

Semitic languages originated in the Levant.

1. Yes, Armenians built the kingdom of Cilicia in the middle ages.
as described by Pope Gregory XIII in his Ecclesia Romana:

Among the good deeds which the Armenian people has done towards the church and the Christian world, it should especially be stressed that, in those times when the Christian princes and the warriors went to retake the Holy Land, no people or nation, with the same enthusiasm, joy and faith came to their aid as the Armenians did, who supplied the Crusaders with horses, provision and guidance. The Armenians assisted these warriors with their utter courage and loyalty during the Holy wars.

2. Is it correct to point out 6% or less Near Eastern admixture and omit 94 %?


3. Yes, that's right, semitic languages originated in Levant..I see you are not from Haiti :)

[Hess]

being European involves a little more than being a christian.

[StonyArabia]

3. Yes, that's right, semitic languages originated in Levant..I see you are not from Haiti :)

No the Semitic languages originated in Arabia, and this can be seen to correlate with the South West Asian admixture which peaks in the Arabian populations. As well all Semitic people share this blood which indicates that the Semitic people and languages probably originated from there. So the Levant is not the origins of the Semitic languages neither is Anatolia. They were Semitized later, people often have believed in the Levantine-Anatolian thesis but it comes to halt, but this seems not to be true, and an Arabian origin is the most likely one.

[Han Cholo]

I have my great respect for Christian and ancient people like Assyrians, and my heart breaks when I learn that they and Coptic people, and other Christians in the Middle East are being persecuted by muslims and no one seems to care about it.
If Semitic languages originated in Armenia, in the same way all of the languages originated in Armenia lol after the Great Flood. It is generally assumed that Noah's two sons Sam and Ham went to the south, and Japeth remained in the Armenian plateau and the region around Caucasus.
As the aboriginal people- Armenians speak an Indo-European language, it means that the Indo-European language originated in here. And it has quite a serious scientific support.

It didn't originate in there. Armenians back then were probably Hurrians, if not Semites. Indo-European spread originated it a little North and in the case of Armenia it's believed it got its Indo-European language across the Balkans.



It's not by chance that the Armenian language, in contrast to other Indo‐European languages, has all phonetic sounds common to all Indo‐European languages. 

Of course it's not a chance as modern day Armenian is an Indo-European tongue but it has lots of terms not found elsewhere.

[Han Cholo]

No the Semitic languages originated in Arabia, and this can be seen to correlate with the South West Asian admixture which peaks in the Arabian populations.

No, it didn't because most of the variety in Semitic language comes from the Northern parts. Akkadian, Phoenician, Aramean, Babylonian, Hebrew, Syriac amongst others. Arabian populations = just arabic. DNA admixture does not indicate Arabs migrating north. It's just your nationalist persona talking. The haplogroups in Arabian populations have less variety than those in more Northern places.




As well all Semitic people share this blood which indicates that the Semitic people and languages probably originated from there. So the Levant is not the origins of the Semitic languages neither is Anatolia. They were Semitized later, people often have believed in the Levantine-Anatolian thesis but it comes to halt, but this seems not to be true, and an Arabian origin is the most likely one.

I think Arabians are the ones that got semitized later. I think they were the Somalis before the Semitization.

[beaver]

Very good and reliable friends (Kharachai, about 4 seasones), as to "Do you consider the Caucasus to be European". I'm not European myself, I'm Russian :)

[bluesky]

Maybe ossetians and maybe but juyst maybe gerogians too

[beaver]

Maybe ossetians and maybe but juyst maybe gerogians too
yeah, they were number 1 (as comrades talked)

[Eva]

It didn't originate in there. Armenians back then were probably Hurrians, if not Semites. Indo-European spread originated it a little North and in the case of Armenia it's believed it got its Indo-European language across the Balkans.



Of course it's not a chance as modern day Armenian is an Indo-European tongue but it has lots of terms not found elsewhere.

I don't understand your zest in trying anyhow to find links with Armenians and Semites. There's nothing easier nowadays than DNA results and they speak for themselves.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Genomic_Europeanism

yes, Hurrians are part of Armenians, some consider them Aryans, some Caucasians, in either way they perfectly suit with the Armenian DNA.

Armenians belong to 13 distinct genetic groups that go back tens of thousands of years, while at the same time there is no trace of invaders in their DNA in the last 4000 years, making them “homogeneous in their diversity.” In addition, 85% of Armenian groups are native to the region.

As to the language if you pay attention it said all phonetic sounds Common to all Indo-European languages.
The same way world's earliest attestations of symbols typical of indo-european cultures are found on neolithic petroglyphs all over Armenian highlands
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRKdSruWAKg

[Hess]

Armenian sounds like a Middle Eastern language to me. I remember being in a Russian food store here in Boston and there was an Armenian family there. The father referred to his daughter as "Aziz Jhan" or something like that :puke:

to my ears, it sounds like Arabic or something.

[Osweo]

to my ears, it sounds like Arabic or something.

Your ears are ignorant. :shrug:

[Agrippa]

Caucasians can't be judged as a whole, but I consider it borderline territory with some groups being still rather European, even if disputed, others not, depending on various factors.

[Han Cholo]

I don't understand your zest in trying anyhow to find links with Armenians and Semites. There's nothing easier nowadays than DNA results and they speak for themselves.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Genomic_Europeanism

You're using only haplogroup reports. According to you the Cameroonese would be related to Armenians and Basques as they share r1b haplogroup.

This is more useful as it's autosomal, here various genetic profiles of Armenian users in dodecad:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-9Z3KYL6AmkM/TkTaXeASbgI/AAAAAAAAD6w/s4hiKdp6sB4/s1600/ADMIXTURE%2BArmenians_12.png

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TShZrL1hQLI/AAAAAAAADKM/f2VuiF4Fm0E/s1600/ADMIXTURE_10.png

They're almost identical to Assyrians save they have lower SouthWest Asian admixture.



yes, Hurrians are part of Armenians, some consider them Aryans, some Caucasians, in either way they perfectly suit with the Armenian DNA.

So what is it that considers them "Aryan"? It does not belong to Indo-European.


Hurrian is a conventional name for the language of the Hurrians (Khurrites), a people who entered northern Mesopotamia around 2300 BC and had mostly vanished by 1000 BC. Hurrian was the language of the Mitanni kingdom in northern Mesopotamia, and was likely spoken at least initially in Hurrian settlements in Syria. It is generally believed that the speakers of this language originally came from the Armenian mountains and spread over southeast Anatolia and northern Mesopotamia at the beginning of the 2nd millennium BC.[1]



Armenians belong to 13 distinct genetic groups that go back tens of thousands of years, while at the same time there is no trace of invaders in their DNA in the last 4000 years, making them “homogeneous in their diversity.” In addition, 85% of Armenian groups are native to the region.

I never linked Armenians to invaders, it's you trying to link them to Aryans and whatnot.



As to the language if you pay attention it said all phonetic sounds Common to all Indo-European languages.
The same way world's earliest attestations of symbols typical of indo-european cultures are found on neolithic petroglyphs all over Armenian highlands
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRKdSruWAKg

No such thing as phonetic sounds common to all Indo-European languages. English and Spanish are different phonetically, so is German and Armenian.

[Agrippa]

Considering Armenians, the main issue with them is not just counting neutral variation, but them being also typologically different. And that's rather because of the adaptive process of "Armenoidicisation", similar to Anatolians, though in Anatolians one has to add the other non-European influences (Turko-Mongol and Semitic) to a higher degree as well as the religion and culture (Islamic).

Armenoids are just not a European type, especially not the more classic ones. And while there are many individually European Europid variants in Armenia, a very large part is NOW, whatever they were thousands of years ago, Armenoid.

That is more striking in Armenians than some Georgian and especially Northern Caucasian groups, despite them speaking no Indo-European tongue - with some exceptions like the Ossetians, which are also among the "most borderline" people to me as Northern Caucasian, Indo-European and mostly Christian culturally.

[Eva]

I should perhaps consider myself Cameroonese hence, cause one appeared to have r1b. The other day some afrocentrist was trying to convince that r1b is African and all the pharaohs were negroes. Please, that's getting ridiculous! You'd better at least study the links I gave. those are the studies done by such institutions that it's too haughty of oneself just to take and ignore it all. just because he doesn't like it out of certain reasons.

In the culture of Hurrians as well there are found lots of elements of Aryan culture, concerning the deities, even language, like the hurrian king Artatama had an indo-European name, but was called the "king of hurrians"..etc etc

[StonyArabia]

No, it didn't because most of the variety in Semitic language comes from the Northern parts. Akkadian, Phoenician, Aramean, Babylonian, Hebrew, Syriac amongst others. Arabian populations = just arabic. DNA admixture does not indicate Arabs migrating north. It's just your nationalist persona talking. The haplogroups in Arabian populations have less variety than those in more Northern places.

Not true, the Arabian pen, had many Semitic languages, for example Southern Arabian is not the same as Northern Arabian. As well several languages existed in Arabia, Sabean, Nabatean, Minean, Dilmun, Safitic, and Hasifitic, Mahara as well Dofar. Northern Arabic would replace the Southern Arabic tongues, in the 7th century which was closer to Nabatean and Aramaic. The autosomes of the Semities seem to indicate their origins in Arabia, because of the SouthWest Asian component that reaches the highest among the Arabians. The Akkadians themselves are of Arabian origins, and this is proven by history. Those are not my nationalistic sentiments but rather it's the truth. The Semitic people did not originate in Anatolia or the Levant.



I think Arabians are the ones that got semitized later. I think they were the Somalis before the Semitization.

Nope Arabian are the last true Semites because the Semitic component peaks the highest among them, ie SouthWest Asian. Somalis have some Arabian component because Arabians mixed with them but even then they don't have much Arabian ancestry. The original people of Arabia have nothing to do with Somalis or any other people of the Horn, except with the fact both belong to the greater Afro-Asiatic population. Semitic people from Anatolia and the Levant is nothing but a joke.

[Nairi]

Armenoids are just not a European type, especially not the more classic ones. And while there are many individually European Europid variants in Armenia, a very large part is NOW, whatever they were thousands of years ago, Armenoid.


We have always been Armenian .That's why are still here against all the odds...:)

Not really,Armenid type is actually a minority among Armenians, just like Nordid is.
Majority belong to Alpine,Pontid and Dinarid.

Leading racialist anthropologists like * Carleton S. Coon (The Races of Europe) and * Madison Grant (The passing of the great race) clearly established the ‘Armenoid’ is a White sub-group within Dinarid and Alpinid (in turn racial sub-groups of the White race) respectively. Most Armenians and Caucasians are not even ‘Armenoid’ to begin with but are Alpines and Dinarics, so even the name is a misnomer.

Ewald Banse, Nordic Race in Armenia and Northern Iran

[Agrippa]

I know that not all Armenians are Armenoid obviously, but its the No. 1 single type in the population.

[Nairi]

We have always been Armenian .That's why are still here against all the odds...:)

Not really,Armenid type is actually a minority among Armenians, just like Nordid is.
Majority belong to Alpine,Pontid and Dinarid.

Leading racialist anthropologists like * Carleton S. Coon (The Races of Europe) and * Madison Grant (The passing of the great race) clearly established the ‘Armenoid’ is a White sub-group within Dinarid and Alpinid (in turn racial sub-groups of the White race) respectively. Most Armenians and Caucasians are not even ‘Armenoid’ to begin with but are Alpines and Dinarics, so even the name is a misnomer.

Ewald Banse, Nordic Race in Armenia and Northern Iran


http://www.homenetmen.com/photo/ShrMarzaHantzt-aDikranDiarbianAramGavoorHagopSolakianVrejMelkonia nSevanTorosian.JPG

http://www.homenetmen.com/photo/Srpazanukhoskibahoun.JPG

http://www.homenetmen.com/photo/pic1.jpg.JPG

http://www.homenetmen.com/photo/Ari-Arenoushner.JPG

http://www.homenetmen.com/photo/Badvohiurer.JPG

http://www.homenetmen.com/photo/HOM-inergayatzoutzichAniAtar.JPG



http://www.homenetmen.com/volley/ChicagoVeteranV-Ball.JPG

[Hurrem sultana]

I had an armenian guy in my class,he looked like any turk

The chechens are light,usually with green eyes...they could fit in the Balkans

In turkey imigrant bosniaks,chechens,albanians are considered to be "the white ones"

[Hurrem sultana]

Armenian sounds like a Middle Eastern language to me. I remember being in a Russian food store here in Boston and there was an Armenian family there. The father referred to his daughter as "Aziz Jhan" or something like that :puke:

to my ears, it sounds like Arabic or something.


ohh you live in USA,,,who are you to decide who is european?

[Nairi]

I had an armenian guy in my class,he looked like any turk

The chechens are light,usually with green eyes...they could fit in the Balkans

In turkey imigrant bosniaks,chechens,albanians are considered to be "the white ones"


There is no such thing as an "Armenian look like Turk", those "Turks" who look like Armenian (or Greek,etc) ethnically are either 100% assimilated Armenians or their descendants...

We have a saying in Armenian "Turks have Christian blood on their hands and in their veins" ( mostly meaning Armenian in both cases)

and Turks have a saying (obviously they will deny now):
"If you were blond in childhood most likely you have Armenian blood"...

All last 700 years of our history is our beautiful, white, light haired, light eyed kids being taken by the Ottoman Turks to be raised up as Muslim Turks.
Aside of killing many Armenian women and kids during the Genocide they also kidnapped many of them and Turkified Armenian orphans.

Some pictures survived...

http://www.genocide-museum.am/eng/children/000.jpg

All men and older kids killed, women and smal kids taken away, Turkified and Islamized...

http://www.genocide-museum.am/eng/children/43.jpg

Turkified Amenian orphans in Aintoura orphanage (seated in the centre is Halide Edip), 1917
"The memoirs of Naim bey" by Aram Andonian, 1920, p. 9

http://www.genocide-museum.am/eng/children/44.jpg

Djemal Pasha reviewing Turkified Armenian orphans at Damascus, 1917
"The memoirs of Naim bey" by Aram Andonian, 1964, p. 24

http://www.genocide-museum.am/eng/children/44a.jpg

Turkified Armenian orphans in the Turkish orphanage of Aintoura
Collection of Misak Keleshian

http://www.genocide-museum.am/eng/children/45.jpg

http://www.genocide-museum.am/eng/children/58.jpg

http://www.genocide-museum.am/eng/children/51.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/30/The_Armenian_Genocide_%282006_film_poster%29.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/ArmeniansOnDeportationMarch.jpg/432px-ArmeniansOnDeportationMarch.jpg

[Han Cholo]

Armenians have a cool phenotype.

YhKzTKYa9NI
5EQVCjh7V2I

Good video where you can hear the language too. A good number of them appear to be partially Iranid.

[Nairi]

Armenian is the language to talk to God.

G.G. Byron

During the winter of 1816-1817, the English poet Lord Byron studied the Armenian language at the Mkhitarist monastery on the island of San Lazzaro under Father Paschal Aucher. During this time he assisted the Armenian monks in the preparation of an Armenian-English grammar, which he attempted to get published in England. So impressed was Byron with his experience among the Armenian monks that he wrote: These men are the priesthood of an oppressed and noble nation.... It would be difficult, perhaps, to find the annals of a nation less stained with crimes than the Armenians, whose virtues have been those of peace, and their vices those of compulsion. But whatever may have been their destiny ... their country must ever be one of the most interesting on the globe; and perhaps their language only requires to be more studied to become more attractive.

[Nairi]

Armenians have a cool phenotype.



They do indeed...


Gustave Theodore Pauli
MONUMENTAL DESCRIPTION OF RUSSIA.

ARMENIANS

Armenians - one of the most ancient peoples of the world, a civilization which existed in ancient times.
Armenians could claim the title of the most beautiful people on earth.

By nature Armenians are soft and quiet, polite and modest. Caucasian Armenians remain committed to their ancient customs and occupations.

[Han Cholo]

Armenian sounds like a Middle Eastern language to me. I remember being in a Russian food store here in Boston and there was an Armenian family there. The father referred to his daughter as "Aziz Jhan" or something like that :puke:

to my ears, it sounds like Arabic or something.

It sounds nothing like Arabic. I believe even an untrained ear could recognize this sounds completely unsemitic:

xmF4jMMjOnQ

Sounds rather inbetween Albanian and Persian.

[Hurrem sultana]

There is no such thing as an "Armenian look like Turk", those "Turks" who look like Armenian (or Greek,etc) ethnically are either 100% assimilated Armenians or their descendants...


this one was armenian but looked turkish ;)

[Eva]

It sounds nothing like Arabic. I believe even an untrained ear could recognize this sounds completely unsemitic:

Sounds rather inbetween Albanian and Persian.
Armenian sounds like Armenian, and Armenians look like Armenians.

At first you tried to find some links with semits... you Decided that semitic languages originated in the Armenian Highland, and found yourself in a funny situation, and one of the users gave the complete explanation where it originated. And as you did not succeed in that, you started to describe the Armenian language as close to Iranian and Albanian.

Second, Armenian R1b, which is the main haplogroup in Armenians 30%, and in certain regions going up to 40-50%, but you Decided that it has connection with a single African who also appeared to have R1b.

The third thing was even funnier saying that Hurrians were Semites. I have been studying Hurrians for more than a year, and not a single scholar would even try to assume anything like that. That was the highest point of ignorance.
Though I can understand when one makes a mistake, but when it occurs one after another, it gives me all the rights to assume that it's not such an innocent ignorance but a dirty motive hidden behind that person, which reminds me very much to the Azero-turko-georgian shameful anti-Armenian propaganda and distorting of historical facts.

Moreover, you put a video of Armenian soldiers at the time of war, where there was no electricity, after the collapse of soviet union, together with all the hardships that people had to face, there was war, and those were volunteers unshaven, tortured, and you decided that at such a state they are the best phenotypes to be examined!

[Nairi]

this one was armenian but looked turkish ;)

Well, that can apply to any nation ;)

[Nairi]

Armenian Y-DNA Haplogroup

I = Nordic, Pre-Celto-Germanic, Sardinian, Basque, Dinaric, Danubian=4,

R1a = Balto-Slavic, Mycenaean Greek, Macedonian=8,

R1b = Italic, Celtic, Germanic/ Hittite, Armenian=28, (according to wiki-32%)

G = Caucasian, Greco-Anatolian=11,

J2 = Mesopotamian, Minoan Greek, Phoenician=22,

J1 = Semitic- Arabic, Jewish=0,

E = North & East African, Near Eastern, Balkanic=5,

T = Near Eastern, Egyptian, Ethiopian, Arabic=6,

L = 4,

Q = 0,

N = 2,

others=12


R1b, among other names is called Armenian.... :thumb001:

[Ushtari]

Nairi post pics of yourself

[Nairi]

bear in your mind once and for all, Armenian sounds like Armenian, and Armenians look like Armenians.

At first you tried to find some links with semits... you Decided that semitic languages originated in the Armenian Highland, and found yourself in a funny situation, and one of the users gave the complete explanation where it originated. And as you did not succeed in that, you started to describe the Armenian language as close to Iranian and Albanian.

Second, Armenian R1b, which is the main haplogroup in Armenians 30%, and in certain regions going up to 40-50%, but you Decided that it has connection with a single African who also appeared to have R1b.

The third thing was even funnier saying that Hurrians were Semites. I have been studying Hurrians for more than a year, and not a single scholar would even try to assume anything like that. That was the highest point of ignorance.
Though I can understand when one makes a mistake, but when it occurs one after another, it gives me all the rights to assume that it's not such an innocent ignorance but a dirty motive hidden behind that person, which reminds me very much to the Azero-turko-georgian shameful anti-Armenian propaganda and distorting of historical facts.

Moreover, you put a video of Armenian soldiers at the time of war, where there was no electricity, after the collapse of soviet union, together with all the hardships that people had to face, there was war, and those were volunteers unshaven, tortured, and you decided that at such a state they are the best phenotypes to be examined!

The Passing of the Great Race

By Madison Grant

The Armenians, have resisted stoutly the pressure of Islam to force them away from their ancient Christian faith. This people really represents the last outpost of Europe toward the Mohammedan East and constitutes the best remaining medium through which Western ideals and culture can be introduced into Asia.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

I don't consider the Caucasus to be European, no. I don't even consider Caucasians as Europeans but western Asians.

[Nairi]

I know that not all Armenians are Armenoid obviously, but its the No. 1 single type in the population.

Genomic Europeanism Armenians:
Their usual genom is mostly divergent from other Asians, and more comparable with some southern Europeans, chiefly with southern Italians, Andalusians, and Rumanians. Armenians are by their genom closer to other Europeans than Greeks, Estonians, and Lithuanians.

(Saying "other Asians" they refer not to Asians as you know them but nations living next to us because we are the only nation with high R1b in our region)

http://www.girls.am/wp-content/uploads/17a5cb6993ea-600x400.jpg

http://www.girls.am/wp-content/uploads/3f8e68d113a0-600x399.jpg

http://armeniansworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/1423b8a88658.jpg

http://www.girls.am/wp-content/uploads/bbb153f580da-600x401.jpg

http://armeniansworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/e607540e2ec9.jpg

http://www.girls.am/wp-content/uploads/89bb0571394c-600x395.jpg

[Nairi]

I don't consider the Caucasus to be European, no. I don't even consider Caucasians as Europeans but western Asians.

Western Asia/Asia Minor/Anatolia are all made up terms to replace the real
geographical term Armenian Higland...Obviously for political reasons...

Neither with appearance, nor with culture or religion we have anything to do with "Asia",besides biggest part of Armenian lands,heritage,culture comes from the part which is in Europe and now is occupied by Turkey and not long ago Armenia was part of bigger European family,Armenians married European Princesses and European Kings married Armenian Princesses, plus 22 of Byzantium Emperors were either full blood Armenians or of Armenian blood...



The Armenian Highland (Armenian: Հայկական լեռնաշխարհ Haykakan leṙnašxarh; Russian: Армянское нагорье Armyanskoye nagor'e; also known as the Armenian Upland, Armenian plateau, simply Armenia[1]; erroneously referred to as Eastern Anatolia or Eastern Asia Minor[2])

File:Armenian Highlands.jpg

When the Treaty of Lausanne was signed in 1923, the Republic of Turkey was established. In its attempts to shroud the Armenian heritage of Turkey, the authorities of the republic began a systematic campaign to alter Armenian placenames. These attempts included the name change of the geographical expression "Armenian plateau" to "Eastern Anatolia."[3]

Armenian Highland, Russian Armyanskoye Nagorye, also spelled Arm’anskoje Nagor’e, mountainous region of Transcaucasia. It lies mainly in Turkey, occupies all of Armenia, and includes southern Georgia, western Azerbaijan, and northwestern Iran. The highland covers almost 154,400 square miles (400,000 square km).

Now looking at the mtDNA, 192 Armenians have shown Asian defining mtDNA haplogroup M (found very commonly in Mongoloids and Indians) in frequency of 0%. Compared to 388 Turks (M frequency: 4.1%), 139 Georgians (2.2%) and 187 Ossetes (2.1%). Ref.: Tambets K., Kivisiild T., Metspalu E, etc.:

[Han Cholo]

Armenian Y-DNA Haplogroup

I = Nordic, Pre-Celto-Germanic, Sardinian, Basque, Dinaric, Danubian=4,

R1a = Balto-Slavic, Mycenaean Greek, Macedonian=8,

R1b = Italic, Celtic, Germanic/ Hittite, Armenian=28, (according to wiki-32%)

G = Caucasian, Greco-Anatolian=11,

J2 = Mesopotamian, Minoan Greek, Phoenician=22,

J1 = Semitic- Arabic, Jewish=0,

E = North & East African, Near Eastern, Balkanic=5,

T = Near Eastern, Egyptian, Ethiopian, Arabic=6,

L = 4,

Q = 0,

N = 2,

others=12


R1b, among other names is called Armenian.... :thumb001:

Yawn... R1b is called Armenian according to who? Basques are Armenians? French are Armenians? Norwegians are Armenians?

[StonyArabia]

I had an armenian guy in my class,he looked like any turk

The chechens are light,usually with green eyes...they could fit in the Balkans

In turkey imigrant bosniaks,chechens,albanians are considered to be "the white ones"

You also forgot to include the Circassians whom are one of the largest groups in Turkey, but this term covers a vast wide people from the NorthWest Caucasus like the Karbad, Adyghe, Karachay, and the Balkars who often are known for their red and blond hair as well various shades of eye color the most common tend to be hazel and blue among them. They also tend to be one of the tallest people. However in the Karachay and Balkars Central Asian features might be seen from time to time such as stocky body, slant eyes, and often a flatened face, but as whole they tend to be very light. For example the Karachay-Balkars are Turkic speaking and have Turkic roots they tend to assimilate very well to Turkish culture, and consider themselves to be Turks. This unlike the other communities who live in Turkey but consider themselves to be Turks in a nationalist rather than ethnic sense, however many of the Karachay-Balkars have preserved their beautiful and unique language to this day, but in it's homeland it's slowly being replaced by Russian:(

[memobekes]

Northern Caucasians are European, southern Caucasians are not!
Simple, punkt!
I define "Europe" strictly in geographical terminology as it should be!

Regards.

[Nairi]

Northern Caucasians are European, southern Caucasians are not!
Simple, punkt!
I define "Europe" strictly in geographical terminology as it should be!

Regards.


Such a pity that Kurds who committed genocide, kidnapped Armenians along with Turks, live in Armenian lands and destroy Armenian churches building their "houses" out of Armenian ancient monasteries, steal Armenian heritage along with Turks don't consider Armenians Europeans LMAO

I define "nation" strictly by their deeds as it should be!

[Nairi]

Yawn... R1b is called Armenian according to who? Basques are Armenians? French are Armenians? Norwegians are Armenians?

If you don't know simple facts why are on this forum??

Your agenda here is just to make anti-Armenian propaganda, so who are u exaclty, Georgian,Azerbaijani or a Turks?

http://armeniansworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Capture1.jpg

http://armeniansworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Armenian-Highland-and-Caucasus.jpg

http://armeniansworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Turkey.jpg

http://armeniansworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/sizes.jpg

[Nairi]

FAMILY TREE DNA – GENEALOGY BY GENETICS, LTD. WORLD HEADQUARTERS

1445 North Loop West, Suite 820 Houston, Texas 77008, USA
……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………… ……….
R1b1b2 represents the largest haplogroup for Armenians in general and project members in particular. It has been estimated to be 8,000 years old. According to Vince Vizachero who runs the haplogroup R-ht35 Project: “From prior analysis, it appears that R1b1b2 moved north and west into Europe quite rapidly. And the data we are seeing in our project are consistent with that: the oldest forms of R1b1b2 are found at high frequency in the “homeland” of SW Asia and places with the most contact with that region. The closer we get to NW Europe, the more we observe the youngest, derived forms of R1b1b2.” The current distribution of this haplogroup shows a heavy concentration in Western Europe (from the Northern part of the Iberian peninsula to Ireland and England via France and Belgium) as can be seen in this MAP. The map corroborates Vince’s conclusions as it shows a 15% concentration of R1b1b2 in a Northern swath of Anatolia – with a peak of 25% in the middle of the swath. The studies on which the map makers drew sampled broadly in the region including Turks, Kurds, Georgians and Azeris. If you sample only Armenians, you get a concentration of 30% of R1b1b2. If you sample only Armenians from Karabakh and Syunik you get concentrations of more than 40%.
The distribution of the “youngest and derived forms” of R1b1b2 found mainly in Western Europe – which do not include any Armenians so far – can be viewed here. Both are the only known branches of R1b1b2a1a (ht-15): P312 = R1b1b2a1a1 and U106 = R1b1b2a1a2.
It was initially believed that R1b originated in western Europe where (considered as a whole, including subclades) it reaches its highest frequencies. However R1b’s variance increases as one moves east, leading to the view that R1b originated further east, and (M269) expanded into Europe in the Neolithic not Paleolithic. Many geneticists now believe that R1b arose in Central Asia or Western Asia. (Wrong term used instead of forbidden for political reasons Armenian Highland-my notes)
A recent study published in january 2010 seems to corroborate all of the above. According to its authors (Balaresque et al): “Haplogroup R1b1b2 is the commonest European Y-chromosomal lineage, increasing in frequency from east to west, and carried by 110 million European men. Previous studies suggested a Paleolithic origin, but here we show that the geographical distribution of its microsatellite diversity is best explained by spread from a single source in the Near East via Anatolia during the Neolithic…(there is not such thing as Anatolia, it is Armenian Highland-my note)
Another study published in august 2010 (Myres et al.) strengthens this view: “The phylogenetic relationships of numerous branches within the core Y-chromosome haplogroup R-M207 support a West Asian origin of haplogroup R1b, its initial differentiation there followed by a rapid spread of one of its sub-clades carrying the M269 mutation to Europe.”
R1b1b2 was carried as a rapidly expanding lineage from the Near East via Anatolia to the western fringe of Europe during the Neolithic. Our interpretation of the history of hg R1b1b2 now makes Europe a prime example of how expansion of a Y-chromosomal lineage tends to accompany technological and cultural change.” Unfortunately, the authors did not type R1b1b2 subgroups. Since their study makes raw use of the genealogical rate of mutation and does not sufficiently cover Balkan samples, their conclusions are somewhat oversimplified.

According to Ray Banks, administrator of the G Project at FTDNA; “G2a3a is found in significant numbers in Turkey, Greece and the eastern Mediterranean countries. G2a3a persons seems to spread wesward mostly along the Mediterranean from these regions. Very preliminary calculations suggest the M406 mutation that characterizes G2a3a arose about the year 2100 B.C.E. as a very general estimate. Detailed samples available from inland Europe were compared with detailed samples from more easterly sites, namely (1) Turkey (2) Lebanon-Jordan and (3) Armenia. These comparisons show that most Europeans have Armenians as their nearest relatives with separations from them starting generally about 1300 B.C.E. and extending into the Dark Ages period after the Roman Empire. Those with the oldest separations (generally abt 1300 B.C.E. to 800 B.C.E.) show splits with the entire group in the east — equally — rather than with a specific region. This is to be expected since the age of the mutation probably does not extend much further back.”

[Nairi]

Armenians...

http://www.homenetmen.com/photo/Gamavorner.JPG

http://www.homenetmen.com/photo/WelcomingHantznaghoump.JPG

http://www.homenetmen.com/photo/TorontoB-Ball.JPG

http://www.homenetmen.com/photo/IMAGE_060.jpg

http://www.homenetmen.com/photo/BostonOverallpointswinner.JPG

http://www.homenetmen.com/volley/TorontoV-Ball.JPG

http://www.homenetmen.com/volley/WashingtonV-Ball1.JPG

http://www.homenetmen.com/volley/Washington-ChicagoV-Ballteams.JPG

http://www.homenetmen.com/photo/YeghpayrPolDawidiangusdanaKouyrLilianihishadaginor inagelimarziginpajagu.JPG

[Nairi]

Isn't it nice Turks replace Armenian Hihgland with wrong terms Anatolia/Wetern,etc. Asia and Georgian-Azeri-Turkish propaganda uses the term "Asian" to deprive Armenians from their own heritage...

You can see how this troll follows me in all threads I post,I urge moderators to keep the place clean...

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=596973#post596973


The Armenian Highland (Armenian: Հայկական լեռնաշխարհ Haykakan leṙnašxarh; Russian: Армянское нагорье Armyanskoye nagor'e; also known as the Armenian Upland, Armenian plateau, simply Armenia[1]; erroneously referred to as Eastern Anatolia or Eastern Asia Minor[2])

File:Armenian Highlands.jpg

When the Treaty of Lausanne was signed in 1923, the Republic of Turkey was established. In its attempts to shroud the Armenian heritage of Turkey, the authorities of the republic began a systematic campaign to alter Armenian placenames. These attempts included the name change of the geographical expression "Armenian plateau" to "Eastern Anatolia."[3]

This is how Turks replaced name "Armenian" from nature...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CH-7XUeUGRY

[Nairi]

Armenian Highland, cradle of civilization and Indo-Europeans?

Yes. while there are many books from Armenian scolars I am only using foreign sources not to appear biased...:)

David M. Lang, Armenia: Cradle of Civilization (London: George Allen & Unwin, 1970)

There are three theories of origin of Indo-Europeans and Armenian Hihgland erroneously reffered to as Anatolia or Caucasus is one of them.


Out of all three theories only Armenian Hihgland theory is supported by important additional proofs.

According to monumental work of Atkinson and Gray Armenian language is more than 8.500 thousands years.

Leading Georgian linguist and Russian scholar Ivanov (among others) have proven that all Indo-European languages derive from Armenian, it is easy to see even by single fact that only Armenian language have all sounds of all Indo-European languages....For instance Russians can't pronounce spesific English sounds, and English can't pronounce correctly some Russian sounds, having 39 letters Armenians have no problem with pronouncing correctly all sounds ( not to be confused with accent ;)

Also, Armenians have all racial subgroups of white/European race:Armenids,Dinarids,Pontids,Alpines,Nordids...
I know, the last one comes as a shocker for many, but we have significant amount of them who were even written about.

Ewald Banse, Nordic Race in Armenia and Northern Iran (Northern Iran is part of Armenian Highland)

R1b which is shared by most Euoropeans originated in Armenian Highland and is 8.000 (much older than European variation)...

The oldest archeological construction is found in Armenian Highland (Western Armenia occupied by Turkey), it is better known to the world with its Turkish name Gobekli Tepe while its original Armenian name shreds light on many things...it is called Portasar, which means naval of mountain/center of the world...

There are books on Armenian origin of others, such as;

Armenian Origin Of The Etruscans
by Robert Ellis

English chnocicles say Britons came from Armenia.

Many Basq scholars look for theirroots in Armenia, there are books on it from them.R1b3 (Basqe haplogroup_ was observed among Armenains as well.

Armenia is the land mentioned in Bible as a land where God gave humanity second chance, Armenia is shown in old European maps as a Paradise...where Noah's arc landed

Armenian cuisine is called one of the most ancient in the world and the oldest in our area.

Armenian Kingdoms of Armani/Armanum and Hayasa (self designation name of Armenians) come from Hittie,Akkadian,Sumerian records.

Ararat was mentioned long before Bible in Sumerian epic and it is an Armenian word.

[Zephyr]

Well... All the Caucasus seems a bit exotic seen from here.

Your culture and even the way you face Christianity looks very eccentric when compared to Europe proper...

4sRkGp5uB58

I mean, it doesn't strike properly Celtic or so...

auRUZ9EBdOg

...

LphsM6nABCw

...

JOhiZFAOBA8

I don't mean I don't like you. I like Armenia and I appreciate their struggle against the Turks, but that doesn't automatically transforms you in "Europe".

You must understand that Europe has developed in a completely different way from the Caucasus and Asia Minor, having an identity forged between the Germanics (North), Celtics (West), Meds (South), Slavs (East).

Armenia stood peripheral, halfway to Orient, it's a Christian Orient. Unless we equate all the Christian world as European.

I see people like Ali Larijani...
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2008/10/23/larijani4.jpg
Is he European? and his people?

[Nairi]

European culture is very diverse itself and is not confined stricltly to Celts,etc...They are all different and rich in their own way.And Armenia has always, through centuries been a part of bigger European family.
We never claimed or wished to be anyone else other than Armenians.

First dance is also danced by Greeks whith whom we are indeed closer culturaly than to others, we shared borders for centuries, were part of Byzantium Empire, and 22 of Byzantiun Emperors were Armenians.

Armenian culture itself is very diverse, you picked up videos wich are in your opinion the most distant from Europeans ;)

Bagpipe is common not only in Armenia but also in Scotland...

I don't know how to insert video, any tip? Putting them inbeteewn YT sign doesn't help...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNqf49VKocA



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsflLstSC4k


As to Celts, you are wrong. Only Armenians and Celts have similar Cross Stones

http://www.girls.am/wp-content/uploads/4043600247_922e0d0783_o-600x393.jpg

Armenian and Celtic Connection in Bible

The Inequality of Human Races by Arthur de Gobineau.

This is in Russian and since I couldn’t find English translation of specific part I used google translator for that.

http://www.hrono.ru/libris/lib_g/gobino36.html

“The name of these warlike tribes originated from the word “gall”, meaning “strong”. It is linked with the ancient roots of language, which remained in Sanskrit, “wala” or “walya” — and has the same value. Sarmatian tribes, then the Goths, kept faithful to this form and named galls ”walah”. Slavs have reworked the word “wlach”. Greeks pronounced it as “Celts” and Romans borrowed fheir pronunciation “Celtae “. Finally, it adopted the current form, “Galli”. Besides that names galls had another name “Gomer” which in the biblical genealogy is the name of one of the sons of Japheth.

As an aside it is appropriate to mention the following interesting facts. Armenians, writing that name it in their Chronicles, turned it into a “Gamer”. I can’t tell where it came from them, but perhaps they (Armenians) were relatives of the Celts. There is indirect confirmation of this in the Bible, where Armenians are called tribe to breakaway from these “gomer” or “gamir”. In Genesis (x 3) they are called “Togarmah-sons of Homer”.

He goes on describing in details the Bible geneology and connections of Armenians and Celts,etc… but I am lost in all those names, details.

[Han Cholo]

European culture is very diverse itself and is not confined stricltly to Celts,etc...They are all different and rich in their own way.And Armenia has always, through centuries been a part of bigger European family.
We never claimed or wished to be anyone else other than Armenians.

First dance is also danced by Greeks whith whom we are indeed closer culturaly than to others, we shared borders for centuries, were part of Byzantium Empire, and 22 of Byzantiun Emperors were Armenians.

Armenian culture itself is very diverse, you picked up videos wich are in your opinion the most distant from Europeans ;)

Bagpipe is common not only in Armenia but also in Scotland...

I don't know how to insert video, any tip? Putting them inbeteewn YT sign doesn't help...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNqf49VKocA

Armenia has always been part of bigger European family

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsflLstSC4k


As to Celts, you are wrong. Only Armenias and Celts have similar Cross Stones

http://www.girls.am/wp-content/uploads/4043600247_922e0d0783_o-600x393.jpg

Armenian and Celtic Connection in Bible

The Inequality of Human Races by Arthur de Gobineau.

This is in Russian and since I couldn’t find English translation of specific part I used google translator for that.

http://www.hrono.ru/libris/lib_g/gobino36.html

“The name of these warlike tribes originated from the word “gall”, meaning “strong”. It is linked with the ancient roots of language, which remained in Sanskrit, “wala” or “walya” — and has the same value. Sarmatian tribes, then the Goths, kept faithful to this form and named galls ”walah”. Slavs have reworked the word “wlach”. Greeks pronounced it as “Celts” and Romans borrowed fheir pronunciation “Celtae “. Finally, it adopted the current form, “Galli”. Besides that names galls had another name “Gomer” which in the biblical genealogy is the name of one of the sons of Japheth.

As an aside it is appropriate to mention the following interesting facts. Armenians, writing that name it in their Chronicles, turned it into a “Gamer”. I can’t tell where it came from them, but perhaps they (Armenians) were relatives of the Celts. There is indirect confirmation of this in the Bible, where Armenians are called tribe to breakaway from these “gomer” or “gamir”. In Genesis (x 3) they are called “Togarmah-sons of Homer”.

He goes on describing in details the Bible geneology and connections of Armenians and Celts,etc… but I am lost in all those names, details.

OK, Hitler and some other nazi voodoo magicians said Armenians were Nordics, we get it. In most of Europe you would be confused for a Turk which are not considered European by most (and they're more genetically European than Armenians.)

How old are you? 16?

Tell me Fatima, are Armenians celtic-germanic because of r1b but Turks, Chechens and Georgians are sand niggers? Please post more images of your bleached, photoshopped Armenian Nordic models, I want to keep having a laugh.

[Zephyr]

As to Celts, you are wrong. Only Armenias and Celts have similar Cross Stones

http://www.girls.am/wp-content/uploads/4043600247_922e0d0783_o-600x393.jpg

Where is the Sun in the Armenian "Suncross"?

[Nairi]

Where is the Sun in the Armenian "Suncross"?

These are Cross Stones...there are million types of Armenian Cross Stones and none is repeating another. No other nation aside of Armenians and Celts have Cross Stones, and all have different ornaments...

If we talk about Sun since many nations worshiped Sun God then you should know that the word Armenia itself comes from Sun God of Armenian Highland-God AR...

So does the word Aryan...

About Ashok Malhotra

Dr. Ashok Malhotra was born in Pune, India in 1950. Dr. Malhotra is the author of over fifty articles and ten books. He is recognized as a leading world educator by the International Biographical Center. He was awarded the 2008 Jewel of India award for his contributions to education by the Indian Solidarity Association.

Tracing the Origin of Ancient Sumerians

Contribution of Armenians to ancient civilization

In the Indus valley from which the Sumerians emerged there were other tribes that lived in close proximity of the Austric Sumerians. These were prehistoric indo-Aryan tribes of an Armenian origin – followers of the God Ara. The indo Aryans were fair skinned and light haired. Hence the reason for the indo-Sumerians to label themselves as dark headed in comparison to the Ara people who were shining. Sumerians also began using the word Ara for fair and bright and eventually they labeled all indo-Aryan people as Ara or Arya. The word Armenian has its origin in AR-MA, i.e. the children of Ara and Ma the fertility Goddess.

Later indo-Aryan migrations of around 1500BC into the Indus regions were apparently of Hittite origin. Apparently, some intermarriage also took place between these indo-Sumerians and Armenians probably leading to a more vigorous community then would have been possible otherwise. A physical marriage also resulted in a marriage of the religious traditions of the Sumerian and Armenian tribes as well as the Sumerian language being influenced by Armenian. Such influences can be found by comparisons between the Armenian (or even Hungarian that emerged from ancient Armenian) and Sumerian language. Are was the Sun God and the roots of sun worship in the world appear to have an Aryan origin rather than a Sumerian one.
Archaeologists refer to Transcaucasus region, including modern Armenia, as the earliest known prehistoric culture in the area, carbon-dated to roughly 6000 – 4000 BC. A recently discovered tomb has been dated to 9000 BC. Another early culture in the Armenian Highland and surrounding areas, the Kura-Araxes culture, is assigned the period of ca. 4000 – 2200 BC. Armenians are one of the oldest Indo-European subgroups. Therefore, it is not surprising that from amongst the Aryans it was the Armenians who spread around the ancient world of Mesopatomia and Indus valley first. The Hittite Aryans that became more powerful than the Armenians by 1500 BC were close neighbors and racial cousins of the Armenians, at times clashing with them and at times co-existing, yet probably gaining form the interaction at all times.

Buxton and Rice have found that of 26 Sumerian crania they examined 22 were Australoid or Austrics and four armennoid. Further According to Penniman who studied skulls from other Sumerian sites, the Australoid Eurafrican, Austric and Armenoid were the “racial” types associated with the Sumerians. Certainly it cannot be confirmed without further investigation if the Sumerian-Armenian alliance took place on Sumerian or Indian soil. It is also not certain if it was a forced or voluntary one. The fair skinned Armenian ladies are likely to have regarded the dark broad nosed Sumerians as ugly. Nevertheless, it may be deduced that the earliest Sumerians who introduced civilization in our world were around 85% Austric and 15% Armenian Aryans.

It is surprising that one of the most significant contributions to mankind should come from the Austric/australoid races. Elsewhere their contribution has not been remarkable. However, apparently a small genetic change is all that is necessary for this achievement. Similar races have illustrated that this can happen elsewhere as well. An example of that is Angkor Vat of Cambodia that illustrates technical mastery on an unprecedented scale, noted for its architectural and artistic perfection, not to mention its sheer size, Angkor Vat is the most famous and no doubt the most remarkable of all of ancient temples with extraordinary architectural and artistic innovations, one of the grandest achievements of mankind.

Ashok Malhotra

Post above is reported...so no tip how to insert a video?

[Han Cholo]

Leading Georgian linguist and Russian scholar Ivanov (among others) have proven that all Indo-European languages derive from Armenian, it is easy to see even by single fact that only Armenian language have all sounds of all Indo-European languages....For instance Russians can't pronounce spesific English sounds, and English can't pronounce correctly some Russian sounds, having 39 letters Armenians have no problem with pronouncing correctly all sounds ( not to be confused with accent

Bullshit. How can over 50 languages that are millenias old could derive from a contemporary language such as Armenian? Armenian ethnogenesis was not even part of the initial Indo-European expansion but a second one which happened from already Indo-Europeanized natives from the Balkans (which explains your high level of e1b, and lower of r1a in comparision.)

IndoEuropean languages derive from Proto-Indo European


The Proto-Indo-European language (PIE) is the reconstructed common ancestor of the Indo-European languages, spoken by the Proto-Indo-Europeans. The existence of such a language has been accepted by linguists for over a century, and reconstruction is far advanced and quite detailed.

Scholars estimate that PIE may have been spoken as a single language (before divergence began) around 3700 BC, though estimates by different authorities can vary by more than a millennium. The most popular hypothesis for the origin and spread of the language is the Kurgan hypothesis, which postulates an origin in the Pontic-Caspian steppe of Eastern Europe and Western Asia. In modern times the existence of the language was first postulated in the 18th century by Sir William Jones, who observed the similarities between Sanskrit, Ancient Greek, and Latin. By the early 1900s well-defined descriptions of PIE had been developed that are still accepted today (with some refinements).

Stop embarrasing yourself and accept your heavy west asian identity and armenoid features Nairi.


And don't even try reporting me because you don't like what you're reading, you could accept processing my arguements instead and you will then know I am right. I can't be banned for saying the factual truth. Actually I should be the one reporting you for spamming the forum with obscure nazi voodoo non-sense.

[Zephyr]

Please, I only asked you where is the Sun in the Armenian Suncross.

Since you said your crosses were like the celtic ones.

Where it is?

[Nairi]

Please, I only asked you where is the Sun in the Armenian Suncross.

Since you said your crosses were like the celtic ones.

Where it is?

Cross Stones can't be identical, since there is none which repeats the other one.
The point is not about ornaments, but a fact that only these two nations shown in Bible as relative nations have Cross Stones, and as I have said every single Cross Stone has its own ornaments, you can google for yourself and find the one you need. My point to show Cross Stones, not details of ornaments which vary.

All Sun God's names of Europeans come from Armenian Sun God AR

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVc8jbGGdE0

Armenia;
The name is connected to the Indo-European root Ar- meaning "assemble/create" which is vastly used in names of or regarding the Sun, light, or fire, found in Ararat, Aryan, Arta etc.

T. V. Gamkrelidze and V. V. Ivanov, The Early History of Indo-European (aka Aryan) Languages, Scientific American, March 1990;[page needed] James P. Mallory, "Kuro-Araxes Culture", Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture, Fitzroy Dearborn, 1997

[Eva]

When it comes to music, ther are many similarities, though the musical scale is different in many. If you want to view everything from the standpoint that everything should be the same, then how can latino dances and music fit in let's say Irish music and dances? And it's a question which of those patterns has remained closer to the ancient indo-Europeans.

[d3cimat3d]

Armenia is the source of Indo-European languages, sure - that's if you take the Bible's story of Noah's ark landing on Ararat seriously (by the way, I think this is one of the main reasons chauvinistic Armenians adopted Christianity in the first place, only because the Bible mentioned their land). Armenians are more similar to the Neolithic farmers who colonized the Balkans and Danube river banks, there's nothing Indo-European about Armenians aside from their language, because Armenians have next to 0% of north-Europid proper admix (just ask me for proof of this, I have plenty) and we know the I-E's were largely north-Europid of some sort, probably more akin to Slavs than any other groups that survive today. The Armenian language is the result of a very small band of Indo-Europeans who were able to Indo-Europeanize a much larger population of Mesopotamians.

[Eva]

Well, i don't understand what all the dispute is about! First of all it does not suit the thread title. One of the scientifically proven theories IS that Armenian Highland is the homeland of Indo-Europeans, and it's getting more and more support. Particularly the European scientists have a great interest in Armenia! Like the oldest wine equipment ever was found in Armenia lately, like the oldest leather shoe and fancy straw dress :wink ...that is the oldest traces of civilization.

I remember A German scholar saying- we just want to know the truth about ourselves, that's why we are interested in your country (unfortunately the greatest part of our lands are in Turkey and they don't allow excavations there). And is it so bad to be from the land of Eden, from the Byblical land? others would just dream about it :)

[Han Cholo]

Well, i don't understand what all the dispute is about! First of all it does not suit the thread title. One of the scientifically proven theories IS that Armenian Highland is the homeland of Indo-Europeans, and it's getting more and more support. Particularly the European scientists have a great interest in Armenia! Like the oldest wine equipment ever was found in Armenia lately, like the oldest leather shoe and fancy straw dress :wink ...that is the oldest traces of civilization.



It's the other way around. Armenian Highland homeland is getting less and less support as we already have genetic samples of Kurgan Indo-Europeans. All the evidence points out to a Pontic steppe origin of Indo-European languages in the area stretching from Southern Russia/Poland/Ukraine.

Chariot was a development made by proto-Indo Europeans and here you can see the expansion of it. It didn't start in Armenia which defeats the arguement proto-Indo-European homeland is in Armenia.

So, you're not proto-Indo-Europeans, sorry. You're basically a mix of Indo-Europeanized Semites/Proto-Semites and Hurrians/Native Kavkazians.

http://i51.tinypic.com/2i9ia84.png


The haplogroup R1a1 is "currently found in central and western Asia, India, and in Slavic populations of Eastern Europe", but it is rare in most countries of Western Europe (e.g. France, or some parts of Great Britain) (see [4] [5]). However, 23.6% of Norwegians, 18.4% of Swedes, 16.5% of Danes, 11% of Saami share this lineage ([6]). Investigations suggest the Hg R1a1 gene expanded from the Dniepr-Don Valley, between 13 000 and 7600 years ago, and was linked to the reindeer hunters of the Ahrensburg culture that started from the Dniepr valley in Ukraine and reached Scandinavia 12 000 years ago.[9]

Ornella Semino et al. (see [7]) propose this postglacial spread of the R1a1 gene from the Ukrainian LGM refuge was magnified by the expansion of the Kurgan culture into Europe and eastward. R1a1 is most prevalent in Poland, Russia, and Ukraine and is also observed in Afghanistan,India,Iran,Pakistan and central Asia.


R1a1 is the haplogroup that was the majority in various Kurgan samples. R1a1 is basically absent in Armenians.

And you Armenians need to get off your high horse: you're not the first civilization WTF?? Repeating lies over and over won't make them any truer.

The first civilization credit goes to these people! :D
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-AOvnc-EB5_g/TWyUEW2BPjI/AAAAAAAAAKw/u9oqtyalz-g/s1600/sumerian_artifact.jpg

[d3cimat3d]

One of the scientifically proven theories IS that Armenian Highland is the homeland of Indo-Europeans, and it's getting more and more support.

If it's so proven, can you show us the evidence? Because all the material I read said that light hair and eyes in the early Scythians were very common - SNP's for depigmentation were found in 60% of Scythian remains.



like the oldest leather shoe and fancy straw dress :wink ...that is the oldest traces of civilization.

All you have is a shoe for evidence? I heard of that shoe found in a cave a few years ago, but it proves nothing.



I remember A German scholar saying- we just want to know the truth about ourselves, that's why we are interested in your country (unfortunately the greatest part of our lands are in Turkey and they don't allow excavations there). And is it so bad to be from the land of Eden, from the Byblical land? others would just dream about it :)

You're being very chauvinistic. Armenia is too rugged and dusty to be the garden of eden, let alone the I-E homeland. Somewhere between the Euphrates and Tigris in Iraq is a better candidate for the garden of eden, if it ever existed in the first place.

[Eva]

Everything can be ascribed to mere coincidence. All of the scientific evidence, even one of the most important poems concerning the European identity is just a coincidence where it says:
Das Annolied – The Song of Anno.
A translation of the EARLY MIDDLE HIGH German Poem, from the edition “Opitz’s Anno” by Graeme Dunphy.

Bavarians...
This was always a brave people.
…Their tribe came long ago
from the magnificent ARMENIA,
where Noah came out of the ark
when he received the olive twig from the dove.
The remains of the ark
are still to be found in the HIGHLANDS OF ARARAT Ararat.
It is said that in those parts
THERE ARE STILL THOSE WHO SPEAK GERMAN,
far towards India.

it can be just a mere coincidence that Moses of Chorene (5th c) says that the lord Bavar collected his family and left Armenia for Germany...

It can be just a coincidence that the Anglo-Saxon chronicle says:
The first people that inhabited Britain were Bretons who came from Armenia!

[Han Cholo]

Everything can be ascribed to mere coincidence. All of the scientific evidence, even one of the most important poems concerning the European identity is just a coincidence where it says:
Das Annolied – The Song of Anno.
A translation of the EARLY MIDDLE HIGH German Poem, from the edition “Opitz’s Anno” by Graeme Dunphy.

Bavarians...
This was always a brave people.
…Their tribe came long ago
from the magnificent ARMENIA,
where Noah came out of the ark
when he received the olive twig from the dove.
The remains of the ark
are still to be found in the HIGHLANDS OF ARARAT Ararat.
It is said that in those parts
THERE ARE STILL THOSE WHO SPEAK GERMAN,
far towards India.

it can be just a mere coincidence that Moses of Chorene (5th c) says that the lord Bavar collected his family and left Armenia for Germany...

It can be just a coincidence that the Anglo-Saxon chronicle says:
The first people that inhabited Britain were Bretons who came from Armenia!

Excuse my French but fuck off. I'm showing you scientific proofs and genetic charts and you come up with poems? How the fuck did Anglo-Saxons know about Armenians? Is your IQ that low?

So now you're saying Anglo-Saxons were hairy Armenoids that looked like Kemal? You hairy wogs have a very inflated self worth.

[d3cimat3d]

Everything can be ascribed to mere coincidence. All of the scientific evidence, even one of the most important poems concerning the European identity is just a coincidence where it says:
Das Annolied – The Song of Anno.
A translation of the EARLY MIDDLE HIGH German Poem, from the edition “Opitz’s Anno” by Graeme Dunphy.

Bavarians...
This was always a brave people.
…Their tribe came long ago
from the magnificent ARMENIA,
where Noah came out of the ark
when he received the olive twig from the dove.
The remains of the ark
are still to be found in the HIGHLANDS OF ARARAT Ararat.
It is said that in those parts
THERE ARE STILL THOSE WHO SPEAK GERMAN,
far towards India.

it can be just a mere coincidence that Moses of Chorene (5th c) says that the lord Bavar collected his family and left Armenia for Germany...

It can be just a coincidence that the Anglo-Saxon chronicle says:
The first people that inhabited Britain were Bretons who came from Armenia!

Yes, a poem based on a biblical passage is good evidence. :rolleyes2: Then I guess evolution, the dinosaurs, and the earth being round isn't true since the bible tells me so.

[Eva]

I like debating, criticism, but it's especially unpleasant for me when the subject of Indo-European homeland is being polluted by Azero-Georgian-Turks! stay away...it does not concern you. It's not your identity that's why you are talking about it with so much disgust, contempt, ignorance, filled with hatred!

[Nairi]

Another significant clue to the identification of the Indo-European home land is provided by the terminology for wheeled transport. There are words for "wheel" (*rotho-), "axle" (*hakhs-), "yoke" (*iak'om) and associated gear. "Horse" is *ekhos and "foal" *pholo. The bronze parts of the chariot and the bronze tools, with which chariots were fashioned from mountain hardwoods, furnish words that embrace the smelting of metals. Petroglyphs, symbols marked on stone, found in the area from the Transcaucasus to upper Mesopotamia between the lakes Van and Urmia are the earliest pictures of horse-drawn chariots.

The Early History of Indo-European Languages by Thomas V. Gamkrelidze and V. V. Ivanov Scientific American, March 1990, P.110

[d3cimat3d]

I like debating, criticism, but it's especially unpleasant for me when the subject of Indo-European homeland is being polluted by Azero-Georgian-Turks!

I hate to break it to you, but you basically are a "Azero-Georgian Turk" minus the Mongoloid influence. That's a genetic reality you must face one day.

[Han Cholo]

I like debating, criticism, but it's especially unpleasant for me when the subject of Indo-European homeland is being polluted by Azero-Georgian-Turks! stay away...it does not concern you. It's not your identity that's why you are talking about it with so much disgust, contempt, ignorance, filled with hatred!

I'm not none of that but I dislike hairy wogs from West Asia who try to piggyback accomplishments who are not theirs. You're more similar to Azeris, Georgians and Turks than I or anything in my family is. And I mean this rotoundly: culturally, genetically and physically. So it's you who should chill down. I understand your paranoia as your intelligence is not high enough to debate me rationally so you have to invent I'm a Turk or a Georgian but I'm not.

You're more similar to Turks, Georgians and Assyrians than to proto-Indo Europeans.

I just want to make clear some things:
A) You're not the first civilization. Sumerians were.
B) Armenian highland is Semitic urhemait not Indo-European urhemait.
C) Armenians are mostly West Asian in genetics and were Indo-Europeanized by an already Indo-Europeanized (not original IE) people in the Balkans.

[Nairi]

I like debating, criticism, but it's especially unpleasant for me when the subject of Indo-European homeland is being polluted by Azero-Georgian-Turks! stay away...it does not concern you. It's not your identity that's why you are talking about it with so much disgust, contempt, ignorance, filled with hatred!

As we know, all thre states spend lots of money on online agents, and we face them every day,Georgia and Azerbaijan want to create a confederation, Azerbaijan wants to invade again Artsakh (karabakh) to unite with bigger Turkish brother,next will be Russia, then Europe...but first they need to take Armenians away...

[d3cimat3d]

it does not concern you. It's not your identity !

Considering that this thread is about the Caucasus, it's you who it doesn't concern. Last time I checked, Armenia is not anywhere near the foothills of Mt.Elbrus or Kazbek. You're not Caucasian, you're Mesopotamian.

[d3cimat3d]

By the way, the outrageous responses in this thread have just made me to google "Armenoid mental characteristics". BRB, this will be interesting.

[Eva]

Considering that this thread is about the Caucasus, it's you who it doesn't concern. Last time I checked, Armenia is not anywhere near the foothills of Mt.Elbrus or Kazbek. You're not Caucasian, you're Mesopotamian.

I already mentioned that unfortunately the topic does not concern the thread title. bastarnae, I know that you are Georgian, i've been keeping track of all that you and many of your georgian and azer friends been doing here, all the false anti-Armenian propaganda that you've been doing not showing your real face that you're georgian.

You are such sneaky low-life people and God knows how tremendously unpleasant it is for me to even talk to you.

[Nairi]

Considering that this thread is about the Caucasus, it's you who it doesn't concern. Last time I checked, Armenia is not anywhere near the foothills of Mt.Elbrus or Kazbek. You're not Caucasian, you're Mesopotamian.

LOL This is the most the blatant Azeri-Tutkish-Georgian comment so far, thanks for showing ur true face without taking it too long like ur other mates here...:D

[Nairi]

By the way, the outrageous responses in this thread have just made me to google "Armenoid mental characteristics". BRB, this will be interesting.

I am sure u will enjoy more the truth about your own Georgian origin :thumb001:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBLKoaLkmdg

[Han Cholo]

I already mentioned that unfortunately the topic does not concern the thread title. bastarnae, I know that you are Georgian, i've been keeping track of all that you and many of your georgian and azer friends been doing here, all the false anti-Armenian propaganda that you've been doing not showing your real face that you're georgian.

You are such sneaky low-life people and God knows how tremendously unpleasant it is for me to even talk to you.

You people have a victim/persecution mania complex very similar to Jews. Must be that shared Armenoid subtypes between your population making you act in similar ways.

[d3cimat3d]

bastarnae, I know that you are Georgian, i've been keeping track of all that you and many of your georgian and azer friends been doing here, all the false anti-Armenian propaganda that you've been doing not showing your real face that you're georgian.



What you think you "know" is wrong - just like you're wrong about the sun revolving around Armenia.

Here are my DNA results:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24947

Nothing Georgian.

[Han Cholo]

I am sure u will enjoy more the truth about your own Georgian origin :thumb001:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBLKoaLkmdg

So Georgians are Egyptians but Armenians are... Nordic race???

Then why Georgians look lighter than Armenians?? :confused::confused:

http://forum.hayastan.com/gallery/1140445237/med_gallery_241_31_5182.jpg

Georgians:
http://nimg.sulekha.com/others/original700/georgia-afghanistan-2010-4-7-13-3-44.jpg

[The Journeyman]

Considering that this thread is about the Caucasus, it's you who it doesn't concern. Last time I checked, Armenia is not anywhere near the foothills of Mt.Elbrus or Kazbek. You're not Caucasian, you're Mesopotamian.

More likely they were related to the Hittites, as they were also part of the Indo-European invasion into the area.

[Nairi]

You people have a victim/persecution mania complex very similar to Jews. Must be that shared Armenoid subtypes between your population making you act in similar ways.

Typical Georgian comment, all internet and YT is filled with that lol


Every time Armenians post anywhere a bunch of Georgians jump in and spam the threads...

[d3cimat3d]

Typical Georgian comment, all internet and YT is filled with that lol

Decimator is 100% Mexican. See his pictures in the "members pictures" thread. So once again, you're wrong Ms.Armenyan. :wink

[Nairi]

According to Georgian Chronicles they are a mix of Armenians,Greeks,Jews,Syriacs and Khazars and only in ur dreams u r lighter...
The light ones among Georgians are Mingrelians and Muslim Ajarians, real Georgians Kartvelians are moslty very dark...

http://www.causin.org/gallery/d/554-2/georgians.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44977000/jpg/_44977228_hands_afp.jpg

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01015/sheep-georgia_1015834i.jpg

[Han Cholo]

According to Georgian Chronicles they are a mix of Armenians,Greeks,Jews,Syriacs and Khazars and only in ur dreams u r lighter...
The light ones among Georgians are Mingrelians and Muslim Ajarians, real Georgians Kartvelians are moslty very dark...

http://www.causin.org/gallery/d/554-2/georgians.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44977000/jpg/_44977228_hands_afp.jpg

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01015/sheep-georgia_1015834i.jpg

They still look lighter than Armenians. You really think your average Armenian is lighter than that? Most Georgians are around that dark and so are Armenians the difference is that Georgian's features don't look as Semitic as yours, and lighter features are more easy to find on them.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSooMAypVXl2fYvy67dD-pwDGzPoD69hBLVF4b6D47rP0ZFjGbJ7N6skBLaPA

http://static.poponthepop.com/images/gallery/maddox_234x385.png

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vmFYMRtnFlY/TjMd9sidKZI/AAAAAAAAHR4/14C4JsP2Hc4/s1600/System%252Bof%252Ba%252BDown%252B80.jpg

[Nairi]

Decimator is 100% Mexican. See his pictures in the "members pictures" thread. So once again, you're wrong Ms.Armenyan. :wink

Mr Georgashvili , and if I post a pic of yourself I can claim I am Georgian lol

Your Georgian state pays u money to entol in all forums and build a "hisotry", and use "European" or any other identity to back up your case but somehow your agenda is always also to attack Armenia, your fashistic church attacks Armenian church every day on ur tellies, u indeed have inferiour compex...

[Nairi]

They still look lighter than Armenians. You really think your average Armenian is lighter than that? Most Georgians are around that dark and so are Armenians the difference is that Georgian's features don't look as Semitic as yours, and lighter features are more easy to find on them.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSooMAypVXl2fYvy67dD-pwDGzPoD69hBLVF4b6D47rP0ZFjGbJ7N6skBLaPA

http://static.poponthepop.com/images/gallery/maddox_234x385.png

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vmFYMRtnFlY/TjMd9sidKZI/AAAAAAAAHR4/14C4JsP2Hc4/s1600/System%252Bof%252Ba%252BDown%252B80.jpg


First picture is from Georgian video :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Guk6nNGKgtw

Russians show here many light and sexy European Georgians ;)

[d3cimat3d]

The light ones among Georgians are Mingrelians and Muslim Ajarians, real Georgians Kartvelians are moslty very dark...



Yes, makes perfect sense... A people living south of Georgia, closer to Saudi-Arabia are lighter than Georgians, great logic you have there.:rolleyes2:



Your Georgian state pays u money to entol in all forums and build a "hisotry", and use "European" or any other identity to back up your case but somehow your agenda is always also to attack Armenia, your fashistic church attacks Armenian church every day on ur tellies, u indeed have inferiour compex...

Yes, you figured it all out. I'm a Georgian basement propagandist who's financed by Tbilisi. :rolleyes2:

[Mordid]

Armenian = http://imagerepository.net/images/j/e/11/jewish-nose/1-jewish-nose.jpg

[Eva]

Hey Mordidozoid, I see you've been missing your transvestizoid :wink

[Nairi]

And SOAD rocks,Serj IS a King!!! :thumb001:

http://nd04.jxs.cz/708/810/86aa332b82_71260672_o2.jpg

http://rudy.mif.pg.gda.pl/~msienkie/rys/SHAVO.jpg

[Mordid]

Hey Mordidozoid, I see you've been missing your transvestizoid :wink
Post your picts, now.

[Nairi]

Hey Mordidozoid, I see you've been missing your transvestizoid :wink

he is typing Jew and insert pics here :D

[Nairi]

Yes, makes perfect sense... A people living south of Georgia, closer to Saudi-Arabia are lighter than Georgians, great logic you have there.:rolleyes2:



Yes, you figured it all out. I'm a Georgian basement propagandist who's financed by Tbilisi. :rolleyes2:

Georgian, Afrikaners live in SA, the are still light people...I know u Kartvelians and all ur not yet formed subethnicities like my five fingers, I also know every single propaganda and pic u post ;)

[Zephyr]

When it comes to music, the Armenian folk music is based on the same musical rules and structure as the folk in many European countries. If you want to view everything from the standpoint that everything should be the same, then how can latino dances and music fit in let's say Irish music and dances? And it's a question which of those patterns has remained closer to the ancient indo-Europeans.

How can what? Latino dances? What's that?

Portuguese traditional dances
o72I8246vug
jDnL2fpwJ7Y

French traditional dances
5ATOup0fvRA

German traditional dances
i_Fngpwfp_I

You can compare traditional dances and music between these countries, you cannot compare them to those of Armenia. There's a huge difference.

And notice the difference between our music and Armenian: we play music in Major and Minor diatonic scales, your sound is always on the Double Harmonic scale like most of oriental music.

[The Journeyman]

I used to know an Armenian girl for a while and she was a perfect Dinaric, could easily pass as a northern Italian. Her brother was more alpine but still passable.

[Han Cholo]

Indeed. Armenian music sounds a lot like Turkish and Assyrian music. Quite cool music in some cases if you ask me. Compare:

GUM9ku4Tjp0

swoj_AU1Wig

n5zevzU4Za4

They're pretty similar (at least as similar as European music sounds between different neighboring countries to each other.)

However compare to Georgian music:
gPsLQYlDsFM

Sounds very different, much less middle eastern influenced.

[Nairi]

It says:

Odd Genoms Contrasting Usual Prejudices

Armenians: Their usual genom is mostly divergent from other Asians, and more comparable with some southern Europeans, chiefly with southern Italians, Andalusians, and Rumanians. Armenians are by their genom closer to other Europeans than Greeks, Estonians, and Lithuanians.



Also, it puts Armenians in types where European type is prevailing, not suprisingly Georgians are not there

Euro-types Prevailing

* Icelander: Eu 100% (R1b 46%, R1a 22%, I1 32%), Neu 0%
* Swedes: Eu 99% (R1b 23%, R1a 18%, I1 48%), Neu 1%
* England: Eu 98% (R1b 56%, R1a 9%, I1 30%), Neu 2%
* Polish: Eu 96% (R1b 16%, R1a 56%, I1 24%), Neu 4%
* Germans: Eu 95%, (R1b 50%, R1a 6%, I1 38%), Neu 5%
* Basques: Eu 95% (R1b 92%, R1a 6%, I1 - 0%), Neu 5%
* Norwegians: Eu 93% (R1b 29%, R1a 31%, I1 33%), Neu 7%
* Herzegovina (Croats): Eu 91% (R1b 4%, R1a 13%, I1 73%), Neu 9%
* Scottish: Eu 90% (R1b 79%, R1a 7%, I1 12%), Neu 10%
* Danes: Eu 86% (R1b 57%, R1a 6%, I1 23%), Neu 14%
* Croatians: Eu 85% (R1b 10%, R1a 29%, I1 46%), Neu 15%
* Slovenians: Eu 85% (Rib27%, R1a 31%, I1 27%), Neu 15%
* Belgians: Eu 85% (R1b 63%, R1a 4%, I1 23%), Neu 15%
* Dutchmen: Eu 85% (R1b 74%, R1a 7%, I1 4%), Neu 15%
* Hungarians: Eu 84% (R1b 13%, R1a 60%, I1 11%), Neu 16%
* Belarusses: Eu 84% (Rb1 10%, Ra1 39%, I1 34%), Neu 16%
* Catalans: Eu 84% (Rb1 79%, Ra1 5%, I1 0%), Neu 16%
* Slovakians: Eu 81% (Rb1 17%, Ra1 47%, I1 17%), Neu 19%
* Corsicans: Eu 79% (Rb1 43%, Ra1 4%, I1 32%), Neu 21%
* Portugeses: Eu 78% (Rb1 62%, Ra1 0%, I1 16%), Neu 22%
* Bohemians: Eu 76% (Rb1 19%, Ra1 38%, I1 19%), Neu 24%
* Serbia-Montenegro: Eu 76% (R1b 11%, R1a 16%, I1 49%), Neu 24%
* ! Tadjiks (Mid-Asia): Eu 74% (Rb1 4%, Ra1 68%, I1 2%), Neu 26%
* Ossetians (Caucasus): Eu 75% (Rb1 3%, Ra1 40%, I1 32%), Neu 25%
* Ukrainians: Eu 74% (Rb1 2%, Ra1 54%, I1 18%), Neu 26%
* Italians (mainland): Eu 74% (R1b 62%, R1a 4%, I1 8%), Neu 26%
* Irishmen: Eu 73% (R1b 81%, R1a 15%, I1 1%), Neu 27%
* Russians (in Europe): Eu 71% (R1b 7%, R1a 47%, I1 17%), Neu 29%
* Bulgarians: Eu 71% (R1b 17%, R1a 12%, I1 42%), Neu 29%
* ! Zazas (Dimili): Eu 70% (R1b 11%, R1a 26%, I1 33%), Neu 30%
* Frenchmen: Eu 69% (R1b 52%, R1a 0%, I1 17%), Neu 31%
* Andalusians: Eu 69% (R1b 66%, R1a 0%, I1 3%), Neu 31%
* Latvians: Eu 68% (R1b 15%, R1a 41%, I1 12%), Neu 32%
* Bosnian (Muslims): Eu 68% (R1b 1%, R1a 25%, I1 52%), Neu 32%
* Kirghyz (Mid-Asia): Eu 67% (Rb1 0%, Ra1 65%, I1 3%), Neu 33%
* Rumanians: Eu 65% (R1b 18%, R1a 20%, I1 27%), Neu 35%
* Makedonians (FYROM): Eu 65% ((R1b 10%, R1a 35%, I1 20%), Neu 35%
* Teheran (Iran): Eu 62% (R1b 8%, R1a 20%, I1 33%), Neu 38%
* ! Armenians: Eu 62% (R1b25%, R1a 6%, I1 31%), Neu 38%
* Dargini (Caucasus): Eu 62% (R1b 4%, R1a 0%, I1 58%), Neu 38%
* Greeks: Eu 59% (Rb1 17%, Ra1 28%, I1 14%), Neu 41%
* Estonians: Eu 59% (R1b 2%, R1a 37%, I1 20%), Neu 41%
* Laponians (Saami): Eu 58% (R1b 8%, R1a 8%, I1 42%), Neu 42%
* ! Kurds (in Turkey): Eu 57% (R1b 29%, R1a 12%, I1 16%), Neu 43%
* Lithuanians: Eu 54% (Rb1 5%, Ra1 34%, I1 13%), Neu 46%

Half-European: above 1/2 out-European types

* Sogdis (Yaghnobi): Eu 47% (Rb1 47%, Ra1 15%, I1 0%), Neu 53%
* Turks: Eu 47% (R1b 31%, R1a 13%, I1 3%), Neu 53%
* ! South Italians: Eu 41% (R1b 29%, R1a 4.5%, I1 2.5%, I2 5%), Neu 59%
* ! Sicilians: Eu 39.5% (R1b 30%, R1a 4.5%, I1 3%, I2 2%), Neu 60.5%
* ! Albanians: Eu 36% (R1b 10%, R1a 17%, I1 19%), Neu 64%
* Finns (Suomi): Eu 35% (R1b 2%, R1a 10%, I1 23%), Neu 65%
* ! Kosovars (Balkan): Eu 28% (R1b 21%, R1a 4%, I1 3%), Neu 72%
* ... etc. (other out-European peoples)

http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Genomic_Europeanism

Btw, anything important u guys see which might not be happily taken by Georgians take a screenshot, Georgians are famous for changing info, they have special agents working 24/7...

http://armeniansworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/genom.jpg

[Han Cholo]

It says:

Odd Genoms Contrasting Usual Prejudices

Armenians: Their usual genom is mostly divergent from other Asians, and more comparable with some southern Europeans, chiefly with southern Italians, Andalusians, and Rumanians. Armenians are by their genom closer to other Europeans than Greeks, Estonians, and Lithuanians.



Also, it puts Armenians in types where European type is prevailing, not suprisingly Georgians are not there

Euro-types Prevailing

* Icelander: Eu 100% (R1b 46%, R1a 22%, I1 32%), Neu 0%
* Swedes: Eu 99% (R1b 23%, R1a 18%, I1 48%), Neu 1%
* England: Eu 98% (R1b 56%, R1a 9%, I1 30%), Neu 2%
* Polish: Eu 96% (R1b 16%, R1a 56%, I1 24%), Neu 4%
* Germans: Eu 95%, (R1b 50%, R1a 6%, I1 38%), Neu 5%
* Basques: Eu 95% (R1b 92%, R1a 6%, I1 - 0%), Neu 5%
* Norwegians: Eu 93% (R1b 29%, R1a 31%, I1 33%), Neu 7%
* Herzegovina (Croats): Eu 91% (R1b 4%, R1a 13%, I1 73%), Neu 9%
* Scottish: Eu 90% (R1b 79%, R1a 7%, I1 12%), Neu 10%
* Danes: Eu 86% (R1b 57%, R1a 6%, I1 23%), Neu 14%
* Croatians: Eu 85% (R1b 10%, R1a 29%, I1 46%), Neu 15%
* Slovenians: Eu 85% (Rib27%, R1a 31%, I1 27%), Neu 15%
* Belgians: Eu 85% (R1b 63%, R1a 4%, I1 23%), Neu 15%
* Dutchmen: Eu 85% (R1b 74%, R1a 7%, I1 4%), Neu 15%
* Hungarians: Eu 84% (R1b 13%, R1a 60%, I1 11%), Neu 16%
* Belarusses: Eu 84% (Rb1 10%, Ra1 39%, I1 34%), Neu 16%
* Catalans: Eu 84% (Rb1 79%, Ra1 5%, I1 0%), Neu 16%
* Slovakians: Eu 81% (Rb1 17%, Ra1 47%, I1 17%), Neu 19%
* Corsicans: Eu 79% (Rb1 43%, Ra1 4%, I1 32%), Neu 21%
* Portugeses: Eu 78% (Rb1 62%, Ra1 0%, I1 16%), Neu 22%
* Bohemians: Eu 76% (Rb1 19%, Ra1 38%, I1 19%), Neu 24%
* Serbia-Montenegro: Eu 76% (R1b 11%, R1a 16%, I1 49%), Neu 24%
* ! Tadjiks (Mid-Asia): Eu 74% (Rb1 4%, Ra1 68%, I1 2%), Neu 26%
* Ossetians (Caucasus): Eu 75% (Rb1 3%, Ra1 40%, I1 32%), Neu 25%
* Ukrainians: Eu 74% (Rb1 2%, Ra1 54%, I1 18%), Neu 26%
* Italians (mainland): Eu 74% (R1b 62%, R1a 4%, I1 8%), Neu 26%
* Irishmen: Eu 73% (R1b 81%, R1a 15%, I1 1%), Neu 27%
* Russians (in Europe): Eu 71% (R1b 7%, R1a 47%, I1 17%), Neu 29%
* Bulgarians: Eu 71% (R1b 17%, R1a 12%, I1 42%), Neu 29%
* ! Zazas (Dimili): Eu 70% (R1b 11%, R1a 26%, I1 33%), Neu 30%
* Frenchmen: Eu 69% (R1b 52%, R1a 0%, I1 17%), Neu 31%
* Andalusians: Eu 69% (R1b 66%, R1a 0%, I1 3%), Neu 31%
* Latvians: Eu 68% (R1b 15%, R1a 41%, I1 12%), Neu 32%
* Bosnian (Muslims): Eu 68% (R1b 1%, R1a 25%, I1 52%), Neu 32%
* Kirghyz (Mid-Asia): Eu 67% (Rb1 0%, Ra1 65%, I1 3%), Neu 33%
* Rumanians: Eu 65% (R1b 18%, R1a 20%, I1 27%), Neu 35%
* Makedonians (FYROM): Eu 65% ((R1b 10%, R1a 35%, I1 20%), Neu 35%
* Teheran (Iran): Eu 62% (R1b 8%, R1a 20%, I1 33%), Neu 38%
* ! Armenians: Eu 62% (R1b25%, R1a 6%, I1 31%), Neu 38%
* Dargini (Caucasus): Eu 62% (R1b 4%, R1a 0%, I1 58%), Neu 38%
* Greeks: Eu 59% (Rb1 17%, Ra1 28%, I1 14%), Neu 41%
* Estonians: Eu 59% (R1b 2%, R1a 37%, I1 20%), Neu 41%
* Laponians (Saami): Eu 58% (R1b 8%, R1a 8%, I1 42%), Neu 42%
* ! Kurds (in Turkey): Eu 57% (R1b 29%, R1a 12%, I1 16%), Neu 43%
* Lithuanians: Eu 54% (Rb1 5%, Ra1 34%, I1 13%), Neu 46%

Half-European: above 1/2 out-European types

* Sogdis (Yaghnobi): Eu 47% (Rb1 47%, Ra1 15%, I1 0%), Neu 53%
* Turks: Eu 47% (R1b 31%, R1a 13%, I1 3%), Neu 53%
* ! South Italians: Eu 41% (R1b 29%, R1a 4.5%, I1 2.5%, I2 5%), Neu 59%
* ! Sicilians: Eu 39.5% (R1b 30%, R1a 4.5%, I1 3%, I2 2%), Neu 60.5%
* ! Albanians: Eu 36% (R1b 10%, R1a 17%, I1 19%), Neu 64%
* Finns (Suomi): Eu 35% (R1b 2%, R1a 10%, I1 23%), Neu 65%
* ! Kosovars (Balkan): Eu 28% (R1b 21%, R1a 4%, I1 3%), Neu 72%
* ... etc. (other out-European peoples)

http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Genomic_Europeanism

Btw, anything important u guys see which might not be happily taken by Georgians take a screenshot, Georgians are famous for changing info, they have special agents working 24/7...

http://armeniansworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/genom.jpg

You're not very intelligent are you? You're a spammer. It's really hilarious how you accuse other people of being propagandists.

[Mordid]

What is wrong with Armenoid type? They are known for their beauty :eyes
http://www.armnet.ru/best_photo/mcrtchan1.jpg
http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/0808/ultimate.fighter.8.cast/images/grigoryan.jpg
http://www.examinethetruth.com/manjism/hook_nose_jew.jpg

[Hurrem sultana]

You also forgot to include the Circassians whom are one of the largest groups in Turkey, but this term covers a vast wide people from the NorthWest Caucasus like the Karbad, Adyghe, Karachay, and the Balkars who often are known for their red and blond hair as well various shades of eye color the most common tend to be hazel and blue among them. They also tend to be one of the tallest people. However in the Karachay and Balkars Central Asian features might be seen from time to time such as stocky body, slant eyes, and often a flatened face, but as whole they tend to be very light. For example the Karachay-Balkars are Turkic speaking and have Turkic roots they tend to assimilate very well to Turkish culture, and consider themselves to be Turks. This unlike the other communities who live in Turkey but consider themselves to be Turks in a nationalist rather than ethnic sense, however many of the Karachay-Balkars have preserved their beautiful and unique language to this day, but in it's homeland it's slowly being replaced by Russian:(


I heard from a turk that the circassians have a really good reputation in Turkey,along with bosniaks(probably because they never very nationalistic peoples).Circassians are also famous for their very beautiful women :)

few months ago bosnian tv aired a show about bosniaks in Turkey,they have been living there for over 100 years but they still speak bosnian..but a very old fashioned style

[Nairi]

You're not very intelligent are you? You're a spammer. It's really hilarious how you accuse other people of being propagandists.


More intelligent to show a Gurji sources which make him unhappy :)

[Nairi]

Typical Georgians, many of htme living in Georgia are Muslims...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snnVyXjKWWc

[Han Cholo]

More intelligent to show a Gurji sources which make him unhappy :)

Blah blah blah we Armenians European, cradle of civilization, Nordic race in Armenia. Blah blah blah Georgian, Gurki, you are Muslim, Blah blah. Shit, you're repetitive.

[Mordid]

Blah blah blah we Armenians European, cradle of civilization, Nordic race in Armenia. Blah blah blah Georgian, Gurki, you are Muslim, Blah blah. Shit, you're repetitive.
Shut up, self hating Georgian.

[beaver]

Bosnian (Muslims): Eu 68% (R1b 1%, R1a 25%, I1 52%), Neu 32%
Old I1a = I1 now (new nomenclature)
Old I1b = I2 now

I nearly fell off the chair seeing your table (I mean just this point, about I1) :D:D:D Scandinavs are in Armenia now :). No, this is about Balkanian I2 (former I1b).

[StonyArabia]

I heard from a turk that the circassians have a really good reputation in Turkey,along with bosniaks(probably because they never very nationalistic peoples).Circassians are also famous for their very beautiful women :)

The Cricassians in Turkey are very well assimilated and have strong and extreme loyalty toward the the state but have kept their traditions in tact and they speak either the Turkic Karachay-Balkar or the Caucasian Adyghe and Karbad. As well many Cricassians women became the consorts of both the Crimean Khans and Ottoman Sultans. Cricassian women were often prized for their beauty more so than any group. However now Cricassians are the largest community in Turkey, and the reason was the expansion of the Russians into the Caucasus which saw a heavy resistance. Some areas of the Caucasus were depopulated and replaced by the Czar by Russian and Ukrainian as well Armenian colonialists.


few months ago bosnian tv aired a show about bosniaks in Turkey,they have been living there for over 100 years but they still speak bosnian..but a very old fashioned style

Yes a lot of communities in Turkey have kept their identity in tact or although generally assimilated into the general Turkish culture. Several communities like the Bosnians, Cricassians have not dissolved completely. As well many of them try hard to preserve their culture. Another term for the Cricassians is Cherkess which means in Turkic "Warrior Cutter ". Bosnians in Turkey are very well integrated but have kept also many of their traditional Southern Slavic culture. Yeah but at least with Bosnian is still being kept alive unlike Adyghe and Karachay-Balkar which seem to be dying in favor Russian what dismay such beautiful languages to be replaced. However due to cultural centers and the focus of identity to protect the languages have been found. It always make me happy when to see someone refusing to learn Russian but Adyghe or Balkar:cool:

[memobekes]

Such a pity that Kurds who committed genocide, kidnapped Armenians along with Turks, live in Armenian lands and destroy Armenian churches building their "houses" out of Armenian ancient monasteries, steal Armenian heritage along with Turks don't consider Armenians Europeans LMAO

I define "nation" strictly by their deeds as it should be!

You look at historical events with nationalist glasses on, well done. :cool:
Trying to blame the Kurds for the crimes of the Ottomans is a crime in itself.
Where I'm from (Dersim), us Alevi Kurds sheltered and protected the Armenians who were escaping the Ottomans during the 1915 events. You can deny this all you like but the truth remains. Our relations have (and still are) always been cordial with the Armenians. Our culture for example has a lot of Armenian influences. Khale Gagani/Gaghan (Father Christmas), for example.

[Nairi]

You look at historical events with nationalist glasses on, well done. :cool:
Trying to blame the Kurds for the crimes of the Ottomans is a crime in itself.
Where I'm from (Dersim), us Alevi Kurds sheltered and protected the Armenians who were escaping the Ottomans during the 1915 events. You can deny this all you like but the truth remains. Our relations have (and still are) always been cordial with the Armenians. Our culture for example has a lot of Armenian influences. Khale Gagani/Gaghan (Father Christmas), for example.

I don't deny, there were Kurds (also Turks) who saved Armenians...but...
anyway, it's better we stop here...:)

[Raskolnikov]

Here is genome providing Armenians are ancient Nordic Aryan:
http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/295/10/1107/embed/graphic-1.jpg

[Caeruleus]

Whats up with all this nordic fever :confused: Everybody wants to be a northern blue eyed light haired god, even those individuals with noses bigger than my ... leg :D Whats next ? Negros claiming to be the true descendants of Odin and Co. !? :)

[morski]

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/sites/default/files/2011/03/thor_2011_a_l.jpg

[Hurrem sultana]

You look at historical events with nationalist glasses on, well done. :cool:
Trying to blame the Kurds for the crimes of the Ottomans is a crime in itself.
Where I'm from (Dersim), us Alevi Kurds sheltered and protected the Armenians who were escaping the Ottomans during the 1915 events. You can deny this all you like but the truth remains. Our relations have (and still are) always been cordial with the Armenians. Our culture for example has a lot of Armenian influences. Khale Gagani/Gaghan (Father Christmas), for example.

kurds usually side with anyone they see any interest in,,,something like gypsies

[Leliana]

No, I don't consider the Caucasus to be European. My definition of 'Europe' is shown by this map:

http://www.zimmerkartei.de/gbr_pic/europa.gif

[Peyrol]

Armenian are white? Yes, simply.

Are europeans? No, simply.

[Hurrem sultana]

No, I don't consider the Caucasus to be European. My definition of 'Europe' is shown by this map:

http://www.zimmerkartei.de/gbr_pic/europa.gif

i thought bosnia and albania and kosovo were not

macedonia too as a big part of its citizens are muslims :D

[Ushtari]

i thought bosnia and albania and kosovo were not

macedonia too as a big part of its citizens are muslims :D
Muslims = true europeans

[Nairi]

Armenian are white? Yes, simply.

Are europeans? No, simply.

thank u for your opinion :) ...I have a question though...

How do u define which Armenian can be considered as European which one not?
There are 3 million of us living in Armenia, the rest (7 million) is in almost every single country of the world,incuding yours. Do u consider Armenians born and raised in Italy, who don't speak Armenian but speaks Italian,have contributed to Italy and not to Armenia, who has never been to Armenia and consider Italy as a home European or not?

Do u consider Laura and her father European or not?

Laura Efrikian from Italy, actress,daughter of a famous Italian composer and violinist Angelo Efrikian and ex wife of Italian legend Gianni Morandi. They have two kids together.

http://armeniansworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/3121746385_df26faa47c_z.jpg

[Osweo]

No, I don't consider the Caucasus to be European. My definition of 'Europe' is shown by this map:

http://www.zimmerkartei.de/gbr_pic/europa.gif

Larisa Ivanovna, 25 miles from Leningrad:
http://1001carpet.com/files/Image/Articles/ENG/006/06.jpg

Her sister Raisa Ivanovna, 26 miles from Leningrad:
http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Everyone%20Else/images-11/babushka.jpg

:shrug:

[Peyrol]

thank u for your opinion :) ...I have a question though...

How do u define which Armenian can be considered as European which one not?
There are 3 million of us living in Armenia, the rest (7 million) is in almost every single country of the world,incuding yours. Do u consider Armenians born and raised in Italy, who don't speak Armenian but speaks Italian,have contributed to Italy and not to Armenia, who has never been to Armenia and consider Italy as a home European or not?

Do u consider Laura and her father European or not?

Laura Efrikian from Italy, actress,daughter of a famous Italian composer and violinist Angelo Efrikian and ex wife of Italian legend Gianni Morandi. They have two kids together.

http://armeniansworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/3121746385_df26faa47c_z.jpg


Interesting question that could have many interpretations: indeed armenian community in Rome is very ancient, some families are born and raised here since 100-200 a.d. Indeed, they're totally italians and the only-one connection the've with modern times Armenia is the religion.

About modern armenians, i don't know, we haven't a massive caucasian immigration...

Anothern notable italo-armenian here is the showman Paolo Cenan Kessisoglu (italian mother, armenian father but,IMHO, looks very anatolian)

http://images.movieplayer.it/2009/09/10/una-foto-di-paolo-kessisoglu-129912.jpg

http://www.ivid.it/fotogallery/imagesearch/images/kessisoglu_paolo_comicoattore_009_jpg_jymq.jpg

[Nairi]

Interesting question that could have many interpretations: indeed armenian community in Rome is very ancient, some families are born and raised here since 100-200 a.d. Indeed, they're totally italians and the only-one connection the've with modern times Armenia is the religion.

About modern armenians, i don't know, we haven't a massive caucasian immigration...

Anothern notable italo-armenian here is the showman Paolo Cenan Kessisoglu (italian mother, armenian father but,IMHO, looks very anatolian)

http://images.movieplayer.it/2009/09/10/una-foto-di-paolo-kessisoglu-129912.jpg

http://www.ivid.it/fotogallery/imagesearch/images/kessisoglu_paolo_comicoattore_009_jpg_jymq.jpg

Well, I have seen Italians an some other European nations like that as well ...:)

Btw, later on I will tell a faschinating story of Roman virgins in Armenia in ancient times on Armenian thread, you might find it interesting...:)

[Peyrol]

Well, I have seen Italians an some other European nations like that as well ...:)

Btw, later on I will tell a faschinating story of Roman virgins in Armenia in ancient times on Armenian thread, you might find it interesting...:)

Anyway, i've a question about the surname "Kessisoglu". The desinence "-oglu" isn't typical turkish? There are pure blooded armenian with turkish surnames?

[Leliana]

Larisa Ivanovna, 25 miles from Leningrad:
http://1001carpet.com/files/Image/Articles/ENG/006/06.jpg

Her sister Raisa Ivanovna, 26 miles from Leningrad:
http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Everyone%20Else/images-11/babushka.jpg

:shrug:
Oh god, I forgot about the Russians west of the Urals! :( Sorry! They need to be included of course. :) Izwinite!

[Hurrem sultana]

Muslims = true europeans

no way..bosnia,kosovo,albania,macedonia,parts of serbia and parts of montenegro are middle east!!!:D

[Onychodus]

Oh god, I forgot about the Russians west of the Urals! :( Sorry! They need to be included of course. :) Izwinite!

russians east of the Urals arent europeans?

[Eva]

Anyway, i've a question about the surname "Kessisoglu". The desinence "-oglu" isn't typical turkish? There are pure blooded armenian with turkish surnames?

In Armenian there's a surname Kessissyan(ian), most probably his ancestors were forced to change the ending some time in Turkey. The same thing was common in the times of the Soviet Union. The surname ending "yan" of Armenians living in Russia and baku were being changed into "ov".

[Caeruleus]

no way..bosnia,kosovo,albania,macedonia,parts of serbia and parts of montenegro are middle east!!!:D

listen hunny you may have the whitest ass in the whole of Europe but if you go down on your knees and start "kissing the carpet" everyday at one o'clock (or whenever its time to praise the name o Allah) you are NOT european. You (and other "european" muslims) are the children of lesser men that choose to change their beliefs for a a few bucks :) ... and I dont care how secular you are, a muslim is always a muslim.

[Ushtari]

listen hunny you may have the whitest ass in the whole of Europe but if you go down on your knees and start "kissing the carpet" everyday at one o'clock (or whenever its time to praise the name o Allah) you are NOT european. You (and other "european" muslims) are the children of lesser men that choose to change their beliefs for a a few bucks :) ... and I dont care how secular you are, a muslim is always a muslim.
At least we are not Christian losers who get invaded by MENA:coffee:

[Hurrem sultana]

listen hunny you may have the whitest ass in the whole of Europe but if you go down on your knees and start "kissing the carpet" everyday at one o'clock (or whenever its time to praise the name o Allah) you are NOT european. You (and other "european" muslims) are the children of lesser men that choose to change their beliefs for a a few bucks :) ... and I dont care how secular you are, a muslim is always a muslim.

Ok listen dude

first of all,i don't care what you think,you are not the one to decide,ok? the world obviously think we are europeans

second,yep i am european and muslim..i am not even gonna try make my self look as a lesser muslim to please you,no i am proud to be muslim,and european ,so deal with it! ;)

adios:D

[Leliana]

russians east of the Urals arent europeans?
The landmass east of the Urals is Asian but it could be that some European looking Russians life there.:) But it's on the Asian continent.

[Caeruleus]

@ No Ushtari you are not a christian invaded by muslims you are just the descendant of men with no moral values therefore yourself a man with no moral values who will do anything for a a couple of pennies.

[Unurautare]

I agree with Caeruleus,"European" Muslims are like wiggers in the USA,only much worse.

[Nairi]

Anyway, i've a question about the surname "Kessisoglu". The desinence "-oglu" isn't typical turkish? There are pure blooded armenian with turkish surnames?


Do u mind if I answer ur question at Armenian thread? :)

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=599021#post599021

[Osweo]

Oh god, I forgot about the Russians west of the Urals! :( Sorry! They need to be included of course. :) Izwinite!
Nitchjewo, Daragaja! :D

******

Caucasians are Caucasians. 'Asian' is far too big a category to fit anyone. 'European' does have some merit as a term, but stretching it to include Caucasians ruins this.

I am a friend of Hayasdan, and have been to Circassia, which is a beautiful place with some great people in it, but these lands are not really European in feel at all. Neither are they 'Middle Eastern', however. They are simply Caucasian, end of story. :)

[Nairi]

Nitchjewo, Daragaja! :D

******

Caucasians are Caucasians. 'Asian' is far too big a category to fit anyone. 'European' does have some merit as a term, but stretching it to include Caucasians ruins this.

I am a friend of Hayasdan, and have been to Circassia, which is a beautiful place with some great people in it, but these lands are not really European in feel at all. Neither are they 'Middle Eastern', however. They are simply Caucasian, end of story. :)

Osweo, as a friend of people of Hayq u have to visit Armenia! :thumb001:

I think ur comment is quite true, the only point I would add about Armenians that our history,religion,culture has been very much connected to Europe, we call us just Armenians, not even Caucasians in the meaning from Caucasus since our heritage comes not only from what is lately called South Caucasus ( which is only 10% of our original lands and heritage) but from Armenian Highland. For example Armenains living in the UK were born in part of Armenian Hihgland (Westerrn Armenia, now Eastern Turkey) which is gegraphically in Europe, their (like all Armenians) dominant haplogroup is R1b and they are raised like British, so the case with Armenains is bound to be a mystery :)

Anyway, how have u been, mate? :thumb001:

[d3cimat3d]

It says:

Odd Genoms Contrasting Usual Prejudices

Armenians: Their usual genom is mostly divergent from other Asians, and more comparable with some southern Europeans, chiefly with southern Italians, Andalusians, and Rumanians. Armenians are by their genom closer to other Europeans than Greeks, Estonians, and Lithuanians.



Also, it puts Armenians in types where European type is prevailing, not suprisingly Georgians are not there

Euro-types Prevailing

* Icelander: Eu 100% (R1b 46%, R1a 22%, I1 32%), Neu 0%
* Swedes: Eu 99% (R1b 23%, R1a 18%, I1 48%), Neu 1%
* England: Eu 98% (R1b 56%, R1a 9%, I1 30%), Neu 2%
* Polish: Eu 96% (R1b 16%, R1a 56%, I1 24%), Neu 4%
* Germans: Eu 95%, (R1b 50%, R1a 6%, I1 38%), Neu 5%
* Basques: Eu 95% (R1b 92%, R1a 6%, I1 - 0%), Neu 5%
* Norwegians: Eu 93% (R1b 29%, R1a 31%, I1 33%), Neu 7%
* Herzegovina (Croats): Eu 91% (R1b 4%, R1a 13%, I1 73%), Neu 9%


Has nothing to do with anything. It's the result of founder effect and bottle-necking. I can come to the conclusion that Pakistani's are eastern Slavs just because they have r1a @ 60%? Or Lithuanians with their 40% N1c1 look like Buryats.

If an Irish guys shags a Chinese girl, and then the resulting boy does the same and so on for ten generations, the result would be a 1/1024 Irish, 1023/1024 Chinese person with Irish (probably R1b) haplotype and 100% Chinese phenotype.

[Osweo]

http://www.movements.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/jerusalem-center-world-3-fold-world.jpg
I wonder where Armenia is... ;)

Damn those old German map-makers! :D

[Ar-Man]

I wonder where Armenia is... ;)

Damn those old German map-makers! :D

I think it's pretty obvious, that Armenia is geographically outside of Europe :)


Can someone explain, what means to be culturally European ? :)

Interesting why Nazi Germany made this map of New Europe :)

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=102497&d=1273697011

[Raskolnikov]

Kalmykia, land of the Aryans.

[Han Cholo]

Kalmykia, land of the Aryans.

There's Riffia too in Northern Morocco :lightbul:

[Zephyr]

I think it's pretty obvious, that Armenia is geographically outside of Europe :)


Can someone explain, what means to be culturally European ? :)

Interesting why Nazi Germany made this map of New Europe :)

http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=102497&d=1273697011

That map was not made by any German.

It was made by a neo-nazi Finn some 10 years ago. He had a site dedicated to Alternate History, and that map was his idea of the perfect Europe in his perception. In that site you even had an imaginary travel agency.

He preferred Morocco to be part of Europe instead of Sweden. Very wise.

[Zephyr]

Funny how the post was automatically thanked by the armenian girls without even thinking what they were thanking.

Taivaan Susi's fantasies come true in Armenia, 10 years later.

Let me tell that he is a an alternative artist and has always been into fantasy art: www.taivaansusi.net/cv.html

If he only knew... lol

[Absinthe]

That map was not made by any German.

It was made by a neo-nazi Finn some 10 years ago.

That should be kinda obvious from the modified EU flag with teh swastika, eh? :D :D

[Ar-Man]

Funny how the post was automatically thanked by the armenian girls without even thinking what they were thanking.

Taivaan Susi's fantasies come true in Armenia, 10 years later.

Let me tell that he is a an alternative artist and has always been into fantasy art: www.taivaansusi.net/cv.html

If he only knew... lol


I was not aware of that, and if you mentioned, & I had more important questions and statements in my post than this map, so before offending anybody, maybe you'll be a nice guy and answer to my question.

[Eva]

Funny how the post was automatically thanked by the armenian girls without even thinking what they were thanking.

Taivaan Susi's fantasies come true in Armenia, 10 years later.

Let me tell that he is a an alternative artist and has always been into fantasy art: www.taivaansusi.net/cv.html

If he only knew... lol

Zephyr with all the cynical information that you have put in your profile description, though I wouldn't get amazed if it's true. Just take that profile picture away. Someone who puts Jesus's picture must deserve it or at least be close to His description. It's not a joke, it's like blasphemy.

[Ar-Man]

That should be kinda obvious from the modified EU flag with teh swastika, eh? :D :D

It's obvious that procedure of creation of this map is made by modern vector based software. But the idea can come from some sources.

[Zephyr]

It's obvious that procedure of creation of this map is made by modern vector based software. But the idea can come from some sources.

The idea came straight out from his head. Ask him. He is alive. He invented borders, countries and even flags on the eastern front.

You could hover the mouse on the countries and see funny flags like the one in the new Gotland... in Crimea. I remember this.

And if you ask me I never heard of any plan to make a German state in Crimea or to make the Mongol Republic of Kalmykia part of a a national socialist european union... :D