Scandinavian origin of Rurik confirmed

[Token]

Genetic study of the Rurik Dynasty
Volkov V.G., Seslavin A.N.
Tomsk State Pedagogical University, Tomsk, Russia

The Rurikids are one of the oldest dynasties of Europe and presently living descendants of Rurik can be found in various locations across the globe. In 2006 and initiated by a group of historians and genetic genealogists the “Rurikid Genome” project was started with candidates being sellected (based on their documented genealogy as being descendants of Rurik) to undergo DNA testing. From 2006 until 2017 over 40 DNA samples were obtained from living members of the Rurikid Dynasty and processed, the results grouped the participants into 3 haplogroups (N1c1, R1a1, and I2a1). The group that had the highest frequency and was also the most interrelated was the group belonging to subclade N-Y4339 (40%) represented by the following genealogical lines (Massalsky, Puzyna, Lobanov-Rostovsky, Khilkov, Gagarins, Putyatin, Rzhevsky, Tatishchev, Kropotkin, and Shakhovsky).
The DNA samples of these genealogical lines of Rurikid underwent extensive sequencing of the Y chromosome (BigY test) in the laboratories of Family Tree DNA in Houston (USA), and the eventual results establishing the degree of paternal kinship.
Within the haplogroup N-Y4339 there is a common SNP shared by all the Rurikid group, that being Y10931 and while the presences of certain SNP’s convincingly show that at the Rurikid group N-Y10931 is divided into three branches. One is determined by SNPs VL15, VL16, VL17 and VL18 (princes Massalsky and Puzyna), the second - VL11 (princes Lobanov-Rostovsky, Gagarin and Putiatin) and the third - VL12 (princes Kropotkin and Shakhovski, Rzhevsky and Tatishchev).
The extensively sequenced data clearly shows an extremely accurate correlation between the distribution of distinctive mutations within the different groups of Rurik’s descendants and the traditional documented pedigree of Rurikid. It testifies that the documentary genealogy of Rurikid as a whole truly reflects the real interreleted genetic structure of the participants within the study.
A separate issue for consideration is the genetic origin of the whole group of Rurikid N-Y10931, i.e. connection to a common ancestor of this group with certain geographic regions. The genetic lineage of N-Y10931 is derived from the subclade N-Y4339, and distrubition of this subclade is primarily found in Sweden (52%) followed by Finland (14%) Russia (10%), Britain (10%) with a smaller frequency in Norway (5%) and Ukraine (5%).
The phylogenetic tree convincingly shows that the origin of the lineage N-Y4339 is in the territory of Sweden, and that the closest to Rurikid are the representatives of the lineage N-Y85136, whose ancestors lived in the Uppsala region of Sweden.
In general, the genetic data indicates that the most likely region of residence of the closest paternal ancestors of Rurik to be in the territory of Sweden.
Thus, the genetic data fully confirms the historical accounts of the early Russian chronicles about the Scandinavian origin of Rurik.

[FreshLinee]

This confirm Rurik to probably be Erik Emudarsson the king of Uppsala

[PaleoEuropean]

Seems more Baltic than Scandinavian. N is a Mongloid group absorbed by the Swedes/Finns. Not real Scandinavians.

[FreshLinee]

This N subclade is Svandinavian but yes probalby came from baltic during iron age

[PaleoEuropean]

This N subclade is Svandinavian but yes probalby came from baltic during iron age

I wouldn't consider them Scandinavians. They aren't Western hunter gatherer stock. They are mongloids.

[PaleoEuropean]

Finno-Scandian would probably be a good term for them.

[Token]

Seems more Baltic than Scandinavian. N is a Mongloid group absorbed by the Swedes/Finns. Not real Scandinavians.

R is originally Mongoloid too so who cares?

[PaleoEuropean]

R is originally Mongoloid too so who cares?

They aren't real Scandinavians either. Just people we enslaved or let in because they had stuff we wanted like metal.

[Token]

They aren't real Scandinavians either. Just people we enslaved or let in because they had stuff we wanted like metal.

Without them you guys would look like Sardinians so you should be deeply grateful that they cucked TRB farmers.

[PaleoEuropean]

Without them you guys would look like Sardinians so you should be grateful.

They should be grateful we allowed them to plow our fields and become white people :costumed-smiley-083

[Pansarkamrat]

They should be grateful we allowed them to plow our fields and become white people :costumed-smiley-083

You should be grateful that they improved your race and enriched it. Their mongoloid genes are strong and that can bee seen among many Swedes. Darker hair, eyes, big cheekbones, smal eyes and round heads has become more and more comon in Sweden over 15% of Swedes have Finno-Ugric blood.

[PaleoEuropean]

You should be grateful that they improved your race and enriched it. Their mongoloid genes are strong and that can bee seen among many Swedes. Darker hair, eyes, big cheekbones, smal eyes and round heads has become more and more comon in Sweden over 15% of Swedes have Finno-Ugric blood.

:rolleyes:

[Dick]

I thought the Rurik dude was i2?

[farke1]

They should be grateful we allowed them to plow our fields and become white people :costumed-smiley-083
You should be thankful that interbreeding with R1a+b *literally* allowed you to become white people.
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#pigmentation

It's fine to say that people belonging to I1 were the indigenous inhabitants of Europe or whatever since that's actually true - but you constantly seem to be spreading false posts on this forum about how anyone from haplogroup I was blonde-haired, blue eyed, and white; and everyone belonging to either R1a/R1b looks like a cross between an Iranian and a gypsy - when in reality, there's never been even a shred of evidence to support either of those claims.

[Ford]

They aren't real Scandinavians either. Just people we enslaved or let in because they had stuff we wanted like metal.

https://i.imgur.com/5Cwvxnt.pnghttps://i.imgur.com/PnfbgVK.gif

[PaleoEuropean]

You should be thankful that interbreeding with R1a+b *literally* allowed you to become white people.
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#pigmentation

It's fine to say that people belonging to I1 were the indigenous inhabitants of Europe or whatever since that's actually true - but you constantly seem to be spreading false posts on this forum about how anyone from haplogroup I was blonde-haired, blue eyed, and white; and everyone belonging to either R1a/R1b looks like a cross between an Iranian and a gypsy - when in reality, there's never been even a shred of evidence to support either of those claims.

XD Indo-Aryans are Asiatic, you guys are yellow deep down. All joking aside, Pale skin and blue eyes are a trademark of Baltic Hunter Gatherers. Language means little, it spreads through trade, which is why we are all speaking English as our main form of communication. Turkish people speak a Turkic language and have small amounts of Turkic Haplogroups. Indo-Aryans had lighter skin, but most Asians in that area do, they also broke away from the other Asians and interbred with Iranian hunter gatherers to create pro-Iranians and later Indo-Iranians. I am halfway joking, so taking what I say with more than a grain of salt is futile.

"First, the scientists confirmed an earlier report that the hunter-gatherers in Europe could not digest the sugars in milk 8000 years ago, according to a poster. They also noted an interesting twist: The first farmers also couldn’t digest milk. The farmers who came from the Near East about 7800 years ago and the Yamnaya pastoralists who came from the steppes 4800 years ago lacked the version of the LCT gene that allows adults to digest sugars in milk. It wasn’t until about 4300 years ago that lactose tolerance swept through Europe.

When it comes to skin color, the team found a patchwork of evolution in different places, and three separate genes that produce light skin, telling a complex story for how European’s skin evolved to be much lighter during the past 8000 years. The modern humans who came out of Africa to originally settle Europe about 40,000 years are presumed to have had dark skin, which is advantageous in sunny latitudes. And the new data confirm that about 8500 years ago, early hunter-gatherers in Spain, Luxembourg, and Hungary also had darker skin: They lacked versions of two genes—SLC24A5 and SLC45A2—that lead to depigmentation and, therefore, pale skin in Europeans today.

But in the far north—where low light levels would favor pale skin—the team found a different picture in hunter-gatherers: Seven people from the 7700-year-old Motala archaeological site in southern Sweden had both light skin gene variants, SLC24A5 and SLC45A2. They also had a third gene, HERC2/OCA2, which causes blue eyes and may also contribute to light skin and blond hair. Thus ancient hunter-gatherers of the far north were already pale and blue-eyed, but those of central and southern Europe had darker skin.

Then, the first farmers from the Near East arrived in Europe; they carried both genes for light skin. As they interbred with the indigenous hunter-gatherers, one of their light-skin genes swept through Europe, so that central and southern Europeans also began to have lighter skin. The other gene variant, SLC45A2, was at low levels until about 5800 years ago when it swept up to high frequency."


https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/04/how-europeans-evolved-white-skin

[Matty74]

I think you're a little confused as to the composition of most Scandinavians and their origins.

[Maintenance]

https://i.imgur.com/jSliD7H.png

[Token]

Y-DNA R was never Mongoloid.

Mal'ta-Buret was 75% West Eurasian, 25% East Asian. Soviet anthropologists exaggerated the Mongoloid features of his fragmentary skull.

The Mongoloid phenotype did not even exist when R mutated from P*. Amerindians are also not fully anatomically Mongoloid, but also partially Caucasoid despite being 70% East Eurasian autosomally.

The original Y-DNA R and P people would have looked similar to Skhul IV -- 90,000 year old out-of-Africa Caucasoid from Palestine:


https://wp.biologos.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/17-kidder-origins-2_2.jpg


Earnest Hooton said Amerindians had elements of "Iranian plateau Caucasoid".
Tianyuan man, the earliest East Asian genome ,was K2b* and we recently got a basal P* Andamanese sample which is directly ancestral Yana P1. This makes perfect sense, as P1 Yana RHS had 1/4 Tianyuan-like admixture and so did MA-1 and Afontova Gora, direct descendants of these people. MA-1 had CHG admixture, so Iranian farmer-like Caucasoid admixture in Amerindians is to be expected. Skhul IV is too old to be even remotely relevant to the P and R question, go read a little bit about phylogeny.

From Mayar et al 2018:
"The historical Andaman Islander Y chromosome is, to our knowledge, the first
occurrence of basal haplogroup P*. Fig. S9 conveys the basic structure of haplogroup
K-M9, one of the largest patrilineages of mankind, of whom the majority of Y
chromosomes from Europe, East Asia, Oceania and Americas descend from, and with
four basal lineages highlighted, three one of them being identified elsewhere (141, 152,
153) and the historical Andaman Islander (P*). Extensive Y chromosome calls for all
relevant positions listed on ref. (154) and ISOGG] can be found on Table S9, allowing
us to definitely place or re-place 91 SNPs of doubtful phylogenetic position downstream
of K2-M256, and to create a comprehensive list of all SNPs defining the deepest
branches of K-M9 haplogroup (16 new) (Table S11). Most of those variants now
properly define haplogroup P-P295 and P1-M45, which is of global interest for Y
chromosome variation as those can be used to understand the ancestral state in the
reference Y sequence itself, which falls downstream of P (haplogroup R1)."

P and R people were originally Australoid.

[Token]

"East Asian" does not mean Mongoloid.
I couldn't care less about what it means to be Mongoloid. Tianyuan was biologically a East Eurasian individual closely related to modern-day East Asians, take your own conclusions from here.


Except it isn't there and Iranian plataeu Caucasoid isn't CHG. Amerindians are ANE/EHG + modern East Asian.
Except it is there and CHG was closely related to Iranian plateau farmers. The West Eurasian element in Amerindians is majorly Yana-related though. Since we don't have complete skulls from these people, the best palpable example would be EHG.

Fitting Yana and Mal’ta in an extended admixture graph including
other EWE individuals reveals an increase in complexity of the ANS lineage over time due to
differentiation and admixture with other lineages, with evidence for low levels of early
Caucasus hunter-gatherer (CHG)–related ancestry in Mal’ta, as well as Western hunter gatherer (WHG) and CHG–related ancestry in the individual from Karelia, commonly
referred to as “Eastern hunter-gatherer” (EHG)


No he isn't, he's a fossil of the first wave out of Africa. He wasn't P or R but he's an example of one of the first racial types to leave Africa and has several of the Caucasoid like features found in Ameeindians AND melanesians.
Nothing West Eurasian about Melanesians and Skhul IV wasn't West Eurasian. East and West Eurasians split ca 45kya, the fact that the fossil remotely resembles Caucasoid skulls is a pure coincidence.


Really? A few pages back you said R was originally Mongolod. Now you're saying Australoid, yet Australoid is also described as a primitive Caucasoid by anthropologists such as Ashley Montagu. And the Skhul IV specimen was described as perfectly Caucasoid by Keith and McGowan in "The Stone Age of Mount Carmel". Many living P and basal R carriers in southeast Asia are not even Australoid, but Caucasoid. P and R were Caucasoid just like the original ancestors of Amerindians were before they mixed with neomongoloids.
Australoids are part of the eastern clade - long lost bros of Mongoloids. Anthropologists were wrong in many things and this is one of them, Onge-related people are closest related to East Asians and this is why we broadly refer to them as East Eurasians. Basal P was originally East Eurasian, the craniological consequences of this fact has no importance.

[Finnish Swede]

They aren't real Scandinavians either. Just people we enslaved or let in because they had stuff we wanted like metal.

So for you, ''the real Scandinavians'' (men) are I1 :thumb001:?

Rethel tried to convince me opposite ... with bad results.

[Token]

No, he is from before the ancestors of East Eurasians and West Eurasians completely split and closer to Kostenki 14 (Caucasoid) than modern East Asians.
https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0960982217311958-fx1.jpg

Do you even know the basics dude? Tianyuan is temporally closer to Kostenki, but biologically closer to modern-day East Asians. Can't you see the tree partitioning into two branches just after Ust' Ishim split? This is the West Eurasian split from East Eurasians, and Tianyuan is a fully differentiated East Eurasian.


No it isn't and Earnest Hooton's "Iranian plataeu Caucasoid" racial type has nothing to do with CHG or Iranian farmers. It's a racial taxonomic classification he gave to living people. You are confused.
It is a taxonomic classification he gave to living people who are overwhelmingly descended from Iranian farmers. What are you trying to tell me? That there was a mass migration of Iranians into the Americas? :laugh:


This says nothing about CHG in Amerindians who have none.
Double digit IQ.
MA-1 is directly ancestral to Amerindians. By consequence, Amerindians got CHG too.


They have Caucasoid features.
Melanesians have nothing to do with Caucasoids, they are full blown East Eurasians. Bury it in your brain.



It is a Caucaaoid skull from West Eurasia. You are putting words in to my mouth and playing semantics.
It doss not "remotely" resemble Caucasoid skulls but was in fact described hy Keith and McGowan as a Caucasoid of the "proto-Cromagnon" variety.
Skhul IV didn't even went through post-OOA bottleneck, this is the fossil of a undifferentiated early Homo Sapiens, not more related to Cromagnons than to modern-day Africans or East Asians. It isn't the skull of a Eurasian, since Eurasians didn't exists at the time besides in a pure geographic way. I see where you are trying to reach, your obssession with Neanderthals is blinding you.


You haven't offered a single proof that anthropologists were "wrong" and you are again interchanging geographical and racial terms mistakenly. Fact: your statement that Y-DNA R was originally Mongoloid was wrong and so are your fledgling attempts to make R look "Australoid". R = Caucasoid and basal R/P people today are mixed with non-Caucasoids, and local Denisovans.
West and East Eurasians are genetic terms that encompasses biologically related populations. You shame yourself when you talk about genetics, which you visibly know shit of.

[PaleoEuropean]

You are fucking retarded.




t. gets his info from sciencemag excerpts


Actually, Baltic hunter gatherers got those attributes from Eastern Hunter Gatherers living in Russia and Siberia:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TCW0KV0d7Ao/WoNjBEXFx0I/AAAAAAAADrg/bcr3Nr3mQpcICb49Cqf1i3cNHN1UpGcmwCLcBGAs/s280/Scandinavia.png



https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.2003703





90% of the light pigmentation in Scandinavian Hunter Gatherere is explained by EHG admixture, except that blue eyes likely also have an EHG origin as well, as WHG didn't get them until after the Last Glacial Maximum and they appear to have entered from the East.
So essentially 100% of the depigmentation in SHGs ultimately has a Russian/Siberian origin and evolved first among the Ancient North Eurasians/Eastern Hunter Gatherers/Ancient North Siberians.

I would rather be a retard than whatever abomination you are :icon_rolleyes:. You don't know sheeeeet about sheeeeet and know less about where what attributes come from kiddo.

[PaleoEuropean]

Y-DNA R was never Mongoloid.

Mal'ta-Buret was 75% West Eurasian, 25% East Asian. Soviet anthropologists exaggerated the Mongoloid features of his fragmentary skull.

The Mongoloid phenotype did not even exist when R mutated from P*. Amerindians are also not fully anatomically Mongoloid, but also partially Caucasoid despite being 70% East Eurasian autosomally.

The original Y-DNA R and P people would have looked similar to Skhul IV -- 90,000 year old out-of-Africa Caucasoid from Palestine:


https://wp.biologos.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/17-kidder-origins-2_2.jpg


Earnest Hooton said Amerindians had elements of "Iranian plateau Caucasoid".

R split from the Mongloids and became Central Asian/Iranian :picard1:. Deep down they are still Mongloid.

[PaleoEuropean]

So for you, ''the real Scandinavians'' (men) are I1 :thumb001:?

Rethel tried to convince me opposite ... with bad results.

Well I mean I1 and I2, I2 isn't as common and is more Danish but it's still been up in Sweden and Norway since before the Doggerland events. I think all I guys are brothers, but we Norse I's are still the best :cool:

[farke1]

Deep down they are still Mongloid.
In what way? I'm R1b and I'm probably more northwestern-shifted (i.e. less Mongoloid) than you autosomally. Serious question: do you actually have any evidence to support what you're saying at all or do you just enjoy trying to think of ways that make the haplogroup you belong to superior?

[PaleoEuropean]

In what way? I'm R1b and I'm probably more northwestern-shifted (i.e. less Mongoloid) than you autosomally. Serious question: do you actually have any evidence to support what you're saying at all or do you just enjoy trying to think of ways that make the haplogroup you belong to superior?

I very highly doubt that XD. you can go look at my Autosomal tests I have posted. Like I said I am half joking, I have a troll in my display pic, you are getting emotionally involved in a half joke. Does my haplogroup make me more Norse? Yes it does. My ancestors where in Scandinavian when yours were milking goats in Kazakhstan.

[farke1]

I very highly doubt that XD. you can go look at my Autosomal tests I have posted. Like I said I am half joking, I have a troll in my display pic, you are getting emotionally involved in a half joke. Does my haplogroup make me more Norse? Yes it does. My ancestors where in Scandinavian when yours were milking goats in Kazakhstan.
Aren't you part Alsatian and part Eastern European? I'm 100% Northwestern European autosomally, so go ahead and doubt whatever you want, but I'm most likely more northern-shifted (not that it matters at all). I don't think your haplogroup makes you more Norse considering that you don't even have a Norse haplogroup - I1 was the haplogroup associated with Norse Scandinavia, and not I2, which is found as far south as places like Serbia. I'm around 17% Norwegian and I don't consider myself 'Norse' whatsoever - and nobody in Scandinavia would consider you Norse, either, unless at least 50% of your DNA comes from the region. I can promise you that.

As for getting emotionally invested in a joke, I'm not upset at all and I don't know why you'd assume I am. I like you as a user overall and don't have anything against you. I just wanted to call you out on one of the many ridiculous and baseless statements you've made on this forum regarding the relevance of haplogroups in modern times. If you go back far enough, all Europeans are either African or a different species entirely - where our ancestors lived 10,000 years ago has no relevance or bearing upon us as people today.

[Ayetooey]

I very highly doubt that XD. you can go look at my Autosomal tests I have posted. Like I said I am half joking, I have a troll in my display pic, you are getting emotionally involved in a half joke. Does my haplogroup make me more Norse? Yes it does. My ancestors where in Scandinavian when yours were milking goats in Kazakhstan.
Us.

https://i.4pcdn.org/pol/1464652503699.jpg


Them

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/07/13/10/2A5FCA4600000578-0-image-a-7_1436781463224.jpg

[PaleoEuropean]

Aren't you part Alsatian and part Eastern European? I'm 100% Northwestern European autosomally, so go ahead and doubt whatever you want, but I'm most likely more northern-shifted (not that it matters at all). I don't think your haplogroup makes you more Norse considering that you don't even have a Norse haplogroup - I1 was the haplogroup associated with Norse Scandinavia, and not I2, which is found as far south as places like Serbia. I'm around 17% Norwegian and I don't consider myself 'Norse' whatsoever - and nobody in Scandinavia would consider you Norse, either, unless at least 50% of your DNA comes from the region. I can promise you that.

As for getting emotionally invested in a joke, I'm not upset at all and I don't know why you'd assume I am. I like you as a user overall and don't have anything against you. I just wanted to call you out on one of the many ridiculous and baseless statements you've made on this forum regarding the relevance of haplogroups in modern times. If you go back far enough, all Europeans are either African or a different species entirely - where our ancestors lived 10,000 years ago has no relevance or bearing upon us as people today.

You are still venting over a half joke, calm down. I look cro-magnon af, my dad looks cro magnon af, his dad and his dad. I trace my lineage back to the Normans, autosomal dna tests and calculators are novelties, they have never been of great value and there is a thing called recombination. My lineage is Norse, it will never change, for eternity my children, my 4 brothers children and all my ilk will be Norse because we come from an ancient Norse lineage. Your lineage will forever be Indo-Aryan. Lets see your father and who you are sired from. Everyone has seen pictures of me, my dad, my dads and even middle ages ancestors. I am an archetypal Nordic looking person, very ancient phenotype and looks.

[PaleoEuropean]

Us.

https://i.4pcdn.org/pol/1464652503699.jpg


Them

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/07/13/10/2A5FCA4600000578-0-image-a-7_1436781463224.jpg

Honkeys always trying to keep a brutha down.

[farke1]

You are still venting over a half joke, calm down. I look cro-magnon af, my dad looks cro magnon af, his dad and his dad. I trace my lineage back to the Normans, autosomal dna tests and calculators are novelties, they have never been of great value and there is a thing called recombination. My lineage is Norse, it will never change, for eternity my children, my 5 brothers children and all my ilk will be Norse because we come from an ancient Norse lineage. Your lineage will forever be Indo-Aryan. Lets see your father and who you are sired from. Everyone has seen pictures of me, my dad, my dads and even middle ages ancestors. I am an archetypal Nordic looking person, very ancient phenotype and looks.
I'm already calm - there's no point getting worked up over a forum discussion. Something I like about this forum that's unique from others is that it's still entirely possible to have a civilized discussion even when disagreements occur, IMO. Anyway, I agree with you that autosomal DNA testing never tells the full story, but I'd still (vehemently) argue that it's more relevant for determining someone's ancestry than looking at a haplogroup. And it's fine if you want to consider yourself Norse, as long as you acknowledge that very few actual modern-day Scandinavians would ever consider you as such, as opposed to simply 'American'. I've only seen a picture of you and not of your ancestors - you do look northern shifted more than anything else indeed, but I would not stretch to say that you're 'archetypically Nordic looking' (and I'm not claiming that I am either, btw) - and even if you were, it would not be as a result of your haplogroup: my maternal grandfather is R1b and he's a textbook Hallstatt Nordid.

[PaleoEuropean]

I'm already calm - there's no point getting worked up over a forum discussion. Something I like about this forum that's unique from others is that it's still entirely possible to have a civilized discussion even when disagreements occur, IMO. Anyway, I agree with you that autosomal DNA testing never tells the full story, but I'd still (vehemently) argue that it's more relevant for determining someone's ancestry than looking at a haplogroup. And it's fine if you want to consider yourself Norse, as long as you acknowledge that very few actual modern-day Scandinavians would ever consider you as such, as opposed to simply 'American'. I've only seen a picture of you and not of your ancestors - you do look northern shifted more than anything else indeed, but I would not stretch to say that you're 'archetypically Nordic looking' (and I'm not claiming that I am either, btw) - and even if you were, it would not be as a result of your haplogroup: my maternal grandfather is R1b and he's a textbook Hallstatt Nordid.

Hallstatt and Nodrid are phenotypes produced by breeding with Eurasians. I am not an American Indian, my lineage is beyond most the people that would levy a claim. I can trace my lineage back to great people who did great things, I would put my honor against anyone else any day and my lineage up against theirs. I know Scandinavian (Swedish and Norwegian) immigrants here and compared to how I am built, they are runts; just because other men are inferior to me doesn't mean I hate them.

I don't hate Mongloids, Indo-Aryans or Meds, I am just alpha dog who likes to bark at other dogs. Woof Woof. :puppy:. Sticks and stones may break my bones but other peoples opinions just make me smile. If you notice most haplogroup I guys here are very ornery and can take a joke, that's what makes us superior, our only weakness is our good looks. Going against us is like going against a beef castle with diamond laser cannons, bow down before Scandicus Supremus.

[XenophobicPrussian]

In what way? I'm R1b and I'm probably more northwestern-shifted (i.e. less Mongoloid) than you autosomally. Serious question: do you actually have any evidence to support what you're saying at all or do you just enjoy trying to think of ways that make the haplogroup you belong to superior?
Nah he's right, R is originally a Mongoloid(well, proto-Mongoloid, who would've still scored some other stuff on admixture runs like Tianyuan does because races hadn't had the genetic drift to be fully formed yet as we know them today) haplogroup, but we're talking like 20k years ago. Y-DNA is irrelevant, autosomal DNA is what's important.

R is closely related to Y-DNA Q, not I, which is definitely a European hunter gatherer haplogroup, whilist Q is definitely Mong. It also branched off an ancestor NO(O is the most common Mongoloid y-dna), whilist IJ branched off way before then.

[farke1]

Y-DNA is irrelevant, autosomal DNA is what's important.
Thanks. This is pretty much exactly what I wanted to emphasise in all of my posts yesterday. I was incredibly tired when I started replying to this thread last night, so probably wasn't able to articulate my thoughts with the standard of clarity that I'd usually hold myself to - but my (intended) contributions on this thread can simply be summed up by saying that I don't believe that the origins of haplogroups from 10,000 years ago bear any relevance to modern populations today, and I still stand by that completely. I never intended to call into question the validity of PaleoEuropean's claims about the ancestral origins of certain haplogroups (as the truth is simply that I've never conducted research on the matter myself), and I PM'd him last night to apologize if my inability to coherently convey this caused any offense and/or confusion. I appreciate the information you posted as well, though :)

[XenophobicPrussian]

Thanks. This is pretty much exactly what I wanted to emphasise in all of my posts yesterday. I was incredibly tired when I started replying to this thread last night, so probably wasn't able to articulate my thoughts with the standard of clarity that I'd usually hold myself to - but my (intended) contributions on this thread can simply be summed up by saying that I don't believe that the origins of haplogroups from 10,000 years ago bear any relevance to modern populations today, and I still stand by that completely. I never intended to call into question the validity of PaleoEuropean's claims about the ancestral origins of certain haplogroups (as the truth is simply that I've never conducted research on the matter myself), and I PM'd him last night to apologize if my inability to coherently convey this caused any offense and/or confusion. I appreciate the information you posted as well, though :)
Well PaleoEuro is actually full of shit because he's overstating the importance of haplogroups(probably just trolling tho tbh), was just pointing out it did indeed come from a Tianyuan-like population rather than say, Aurignacian samples in paleolithic Europe.

This Razor Sharp fella is also full of shit, claiming Y-DNA I WHGs had Mongoloid EDAR when it was literally only the ANE/EHG admixed populations like Scandinavian Hunter Gatherers that had EDAR, not WHGs.

[XenophobicPrussian]

EDAR370A isn't from Asia:


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4918750/





Like I said EDAR370A in Mongoloids likely has a recent Scandinavian origin, Mongoloids are a composite race that evolved from afar. The full Mongoloid "puzzle" was likely not assembled until 2kya and auggesting that Mongoloid-like populations existed 40,000-14,000 years ago is sheer stupidity and subhumanity.
That quote doesn't mean squat, dipshit. They meant have no East Asian ancestry past what ANE had(which also contradicts what you just said about Han affinity in SHG you fucking retard).

Move along now, Zhang.

[PaleoEuropean]

R did not split from mongoloid, it entered Mongoloid.
Y-DNA R = Eastern Hunter Gatherers and originally Caucasoid. Mal'ta-Buret = 75-99% Caucasoid:


https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33526-To-everyone-who-claims-that-Malta-Boy-was-Mongoloid


Y-DNA I men were Mongoloid anthropologically and genetically just 5000 years ago with EDAR370a and genetic affinities for Han Chinese. EDAR370a may even have originated in Scandinavia and spread to Asia. The Mongolid race may be partially Scandinavian in origin, who knows. There's no East Eurasian aDNA samples with EDAR370a older than neolithic times and even then its not fixed.

R was once Haplogroup K2 alongside all the Asiatics, it at it's root is Asiatic and Iranicized by G

[PaleoEuropean]

Thanks. This is pretty much exactly what I wanted to emphasise in all of my posts yesterday. I was incredibly tired when I started replying to this thread last night, so probably wasn't able to articulate my thoughts with the standard of clarity that I'd usually hold myself to - but my (intended) contributions on this thread can simply be summed up by saying that I don't believe that the origins of haplogroups from 10,000 years ago bear any relevance to modern populations today, and I still stand by that completely. I never intended to call into question the validity of PaleoEuropean's claims about the ancestral origins of certain haplogroups (as the truth is simply that I've never conducted research on the matter myself), and I PM'd him last night to apologize if my inability to coherently convey this caused any offense and/or confusion. I appreciate the information you posted as well, though :)

Yea I was just taking the piss, But there is some truth to what I say, more so about paleolithic origins etc. Scandinavian culture was a construct of their era, haplogroups didn't have great importance but may have some esoteric importance via the founder effect in certain populations. You are a good dude. Haplogroup R is Asiatic, but it split from the Mongloid (don't mean the term offensively) Haplogroups on the fringes of Siberia. R is Central Asian and often more associated with Iran and Indo-Aryans. But they were in fact Asiatic people to begin with. For all intensive purposes it is Asian, the only native y haplgroup today is Haplogroup I (Eurasia not counted).

[PaleoEuropean]

Somebody want to ban this retard? R didn't split from Mongoloids and the Iranian languages trace their origin to the Corded Ware culture of Northern Europe, and were initially associated with R1a. R1 variants today are minority haplogroups in Iran and R has always been an Eastern Euripean hunter gatherer haplogroup.

Y-DNA I is not the native European haplogroup but rather C1a2 and NO.
C1a2 still exists in European men and dates all the way back to Sungir man and Dolni Vestonice.

Y-DNA I1 is a sand nigger haplogroup linked to its cousin J. You are southwest Asiatics.

Lol you are the least subtle troll and or the biggest idiot on TA. You can't even spell European XD. R came from K. K=father of Asiatics. U Dum Br0

[PaleoEuropean]

Y-DNA K was a west Asian Caucasoid 50,000 years ago like your Haplogroup I and its J relative.


Mad Asian alert, hide your soy sauce folks.

https://i.imgur.com/gNW41J4.jpg

[PaleoEuropean]

:rolleyes:

G was Iranicized by R1a, piggy. Indo-Iranian languages came from Corded Ware R1a. R1a males migrated to the Caucasus to marry mtDNA T women after they got through bleaching your women. R is a European Hunter Gatherer haplogroup.

Don't be mad

You are a Chinaman cosplaying as a European.

[PaleoEuropean]

:rolleyes:

G was Iranicized by R1a, piggy. Indo-Iranian languages came from Corded Ware R1a. R1a males migrated to the Caucasus to marry mtDNA T women after they got through bleaching your women. R is a European Hunter Gatherer haplogroup.

"R is a European Hunter Gather haplgroup" That is the single most retarded thing I have ever heard on TA. Congrats, you just blew my mind with your retardery.

https://i.imgur.com/gNW41J4.jpg

[Peterski]

What about this theory that Rurik was I2a but later Ingegerd cheated on Yaroslav (and hence N1c)?:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?258329-I2a1b-CTS10228-Rurikids

[PaleoEuropean]

What about this theory that Rurik was I2a but later Ingegerd cheated on Yaroslav (and hence N1c)?:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?258329-I2a1b-CTS10228-Rurikids

Interesting theory, but that takes out adoption. Many Scandinavians adopted locals into their family, that is how they merged with natives in every land they settled alongside marriage. They have also been known to give fake origin stories to great warriors who weren't Northmen. There are many factors when you are dealing with colonization and the merging of powerful families and allies. Also I2a is really uncommon in Norway, it's mostly a Danish line when it comes to Scandinavians, but there are of course exceptions.

[Yaglakar]

From 2006 to 2017 over 40 DNA samples were obtained from living members of the Rurikid Dynasty and processed through DNA testing, the eventual results grouped the participants into 3 haplogroups ( N lc l, R ia l, and I2al). The group that had the highest frequency and was also the most interrelated was the group belonging to subclade N-Y4339 (40%) represented by the following genealogical lines (Massalsky, Puzyna, Lobanov-Rostovsky, Khilkov, Gagarins, Putyatin, R z h e v s k y , T a t i s h c h e v , K r o p o t k i n , and Shakhovsky).

https://i.imgur.com/8tJZJ5T.png
Figure 1. A brief version of the Rurikid pedigree according to P.V. Dolgorukov. The ancestors of the genealogical lines and the generation of Rurik are indicated.

The DNA samples of these genealogical lines of Rurikid underwent extensive sequencing of the Y chromosome (BigY test) in the laboratories of Family Tree DNA in Houston (USA), and the concluding results established the degree of paternal kinship.

Within the haplogroup N-Y4339 there is a common SNP shared by the entire Rurikid group, that SNP being Y10931 and whiles the presences of other certain SNP's convincingly shows that the Rurikid group N-Y10931 is divided into three branches. One branch determined by SNPs VL15, VL16, VL17 and VL18 (princes Massalsky and Puzyna), the second by VL11 (princes Lobanov-Rostovsky, Gagarin and Putyatin) and the third by VL12 (princes Kropotkin and Shakhovski, Rzhevsky and Tatishchev).

https://i.imgur.com/FsbjUiR.png
Figure 2. Phylogenetic tree of lineage N-Y10931 according to Y-SNP and Y-STR markers.

The extensively sequenced Y-chromosome data clearly shows an extremely accurate correlation between the distribution of distinctive mutations within the different groups of Rurik's descendants and the traditional documented pedigree of Rurikid. The results clearly testify that the documentary genealogy of Rurikid as a whole truly reflects that of the interrelated genetic structure of the participants within the study.

The genetic lineage of N-Y10931 is derived from the subclade N-Y4339, and distrubition of this subclade is primarily found in Sweden (52%) followed by Finland (14%) Russia (10%), Britain (10%) with a smaller frequency in Norway (5%) and Ukraine (5%).

The phylogenetic tree convincingly shows that the origin of the lineage N-Y4339 is rooted in the territory of Sweden, and the results clearly show that the closest to Rurikid are the representatives of the lineage N-Y85136 whose ancestors lived in the Uppsala region of Sweden and having a common ancestor who lived 1200-1350 years ago, clearly showing a good correlation with the main genealogy of Rurikid and Rurik's lifetime.

https://i.imgur.com/QULMaJi.png
Figure 4. Phylogenetic tree of subclade N-Y4341.

In general, the genetic data indicates that the most likely region of residence of the closest paternal ancestors of Rurik to be that of the Uppsala region of Sweden.

https://i.imgur.com/hpTCpHX.png
Figure 5. Residences of ancestors different lines N-Y4339

- Old Ladoga - residence of Rurik
- N-Y85136 - close genetic relatives of Rurikid
- N-Y5611
- N-Y12104
- N-Y19111
• - N-Y4339 (XY10932, Y5611, Y12104, Y19111)
♦ - N-Y4339* (Sigtuna, Sweden)

Again the genetic results fully confirm the historical accounts of the early Russian chronicles about the Scandinavian origin of Rurik.

http://trog.narod.ru/articles/Genetic_study_of_the_Rurik_Dynasty.pdf

[Lemgrant]

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