AND THE LOWEST WESTERN ADMIXED SOUTH ASIAN AWARD NOMINEE GOES TO....!!! :cool: :thumb001:

[Maguzanci]

IT GOES TO BONDA AND THE JUANG TRIBE OF ORISSA... CONGRATULATIONS!! :thumb001::cool:

This needs to be celebrated!! There is not a lot of South Asians who managed to keep themselves this genetically intact from the massive Caucasoid invasion of the subcontinent. People seem to be much more interested to talk about who is the most Caucasoid of the South Asians but not who is the least Western-shifted so I decide to make an opposite one!!

This Bonda ORI:34 is the least Western-shifted sample. It seems to be anywhere from 7-11% Western admixed. I also add the Bonda ORI:35 sample who is more around 9-11% West Eurasian. I used to two version of Simulated AASI, the one by Matt and the Simulated_AASI_Averaged.

P.S.- Not going to do one for Bonda ORI:36 as the result is very similar to Bonda ORI:35.

Here is the one using Simulated AASI by Matt. The Parkhai and MBA is used as the source for Western affinity. Here it seems Bonda ORI34 and ORI35 are only 7 and 9% West Eurasian. The rest of their genome being 62-64% AASI and 28-29% Mongoloid (represented by Lao_LN_BA)

"sample": "Test1:Bonda_-_ORI34",
"fit": 1.8437,
"Simulated_AASI": 64.17,
"LAO_LN_BA": 28.33,
"TKM_Parkhai_MBA": 5,
"Yamnaya_BGR": 2.5,
"closestDistances": [
"Simulated_AASI:By_Matt: 12.58583",
"LAO_LN_BA:undefined: 27.88733",
"TKM_Parkhai_MBA:undefined: 45.84193",
"Yamnaya_BGR:undefined: 47.74943"


"sample": "Test2:Bonda_-_ORI35",
"fit": 2.2089,
"Simulated_AASI": 61.67,
"LAO_LN_BA": 29.17,
"Yamnaya_BGR": 5.83,
"TKM_Parkhai_MBA": 3.33,
"closestDistances": [
"Simulated_AASI:By_Matt: 13.31667",
"LAO_LN_BA:undefined: 27.52283",
"TKM_Parkhai_MBA:undefined: 45.35207",
"Yamnaya_BGR:undefined: 47.01895"

The fit here is slightly better; Here everything it is the same. Just changed Parkhai to Sarazm Eneolithic, the Western affinity of Bonda ORI34 and ORI35 are 8 and 10%. The rest of their genome being 61-63% AASI and 28-29% East Asian.

"sample": "Test1:Bonda_-_ORI34",
"fit": 1.7764,
"Simulated_AASI": 63.33,
"LAO_LN_BA": 28.33,
"TJK_Sarazm_Eneolithic": 5.83,
"Yamnaya_BGR": 2.5,
"closestDistances": [
"Simulated_AASI:By_Matt: 12.58583",
"LAO_LN_BA:undefined: 27.88733",
"TJK_Sarazm_Eneolithic:undefined: 43.38315",
"Yamnaya_BGR:undefined: 47.74943"

"sample": "Test2:Bonda_-_ORI35",
"fit": 2.0954,
"Simulated_AASI": 60.83,
"LAO_LN_BA": 29.17,
"TJK_Sarazm_Eneolithic": 7.5,
"Yamnaya_BGR": 2.5,
"closestDistances": [
"Simulated_AASI:By_Matt: 13.31667",
"LAO_LN_BA:undefined: 27.52283",
"TJK_Sarazm_Eneolithic:undefined: 42.85483",
"Yamnaya_BGR:undefined: 47.01895"

Here I experimented with the Simulated AASI_Averaged to see whether it gives different results. Here AASI ancestry decrease, while the East Asian and Western affinity increases. Here the Bonda ORI34 and ORI35 is now around 10-12% Western admixed. They now only have 55-58% AASI but their East Asian affinity increases to 32-33% Lao_LN_BA.

Here is the model using Ganj Dareh and Yamnaya BGR as the Western proxy for the admixture in Bonda ORI:34 and ORI:35

"sample": "Test1:Bonda_-_ORI34",
"fit": 1.7735,
"Simulated_AASI": 57.5,
"LAO_LN_BA": 31.67,
"IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N": 6.67,
"Yamnaya_BGR": 4.17,
"closestDistances": [
"Simulated_AASI:Averaged: 16.44499",
"LAO_LN_BA:undefined: 27.88733",
"IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:undefined: 44.66518",
"Yamnaya_BGR:undefined: 47.74943"
]

"sample": "Test2:Bonda_-_ORI35",
"fit": 2.0545,
"Simulated_AASI": 55,
"LAO_LN_BA": 33.33,
"Yamnaya_BGR": 6.67,
"IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N": 5,
"closestDistances": [
"Simulated_AASI:Averaged: 17.17574",
"LAO_LN_BA:undefined: 27.52283",
"IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N:undefined: 44.26907",
"Yamnaya_BGR:undefined: 47.01895"

Now replacing Ganj Dareh with Parkhai MBA instead and the Western admixture decreases a bit. The fit is still fine but a bit more distant.

"sample": "Test1:Bonda_-_ORI34",
"fit": 1.8943,
"Simulated_AASI_Averaged": 57.5,
"LAO_LN_BA": 32.5,
"Yamnaya_BGR": 6.67,
"TKM_Parkhai_MBA": 3.33,
"closestDistances": [
"Simulated_AASI_Averaged:undefined: 16.44500",
"LAO_LN_BA:undefined: 27.88733",
"TKM_Parkhai_MBA:undefined: 45.84193",
"Yamnaya_BGR:undefined: 47.74943"
]

"sample": "Test2:Bonda_-_ORI35",
"fit": 2.0919,
"Simulated_AASI_Averaged": 55.83,
"LAO_LN_BA": 32.5,
"Yamnaya_BGR": 7.5,
"TKM_Parkhai_MBA": 4.17,
"closestDistances": [
"Simulated_AASI_Averaged:undefined: 17.17574",
"LAO_LN_BA:undefined: 27.52283",
"TKM_Parkhai_MBA:undefined: 45.35207",
"Yamnaya_BGR:undefined: 47.01895"

Here is the models for the average Bonda and Juang: using Simulated AASI_Average.

Note: There is only one Juang sample. More Juangs might be need for a more accurate look at their genomes.

Parkhai and Yamnaya is used to represent the proxy for Western affinity as usual. The average Bonda and Juang are now 56-57% AASI, 32-33% East Asian (Lao_LN_BA) and 10-12% Western admixed (Parkhai and Yamnaya).

"sample": "Test1:Bonda",
"fit": 1.7464,
"Simulated_AASI": 56.67,
"LAO_LN_BA": 31.67,
"TKM_Parkhai_Eneolithic": 5.83,
"Yamnaya_BGR": 5.83,
"closestDistances": [
"Simulated_AASI:Averaged: 16.94482",
"LAO_LN_BA:undefined: 27.57428",
"TKM_Parkhai_Eneolithic:undefined: 44.74623",
"Yamnaya_BGR:undefined: 47.20293"


"sample": "Test2:Juang",
"fit": 2.4843,
"Simulated_AASI": 55.83,
"LAO_LN_BA": 33.33,
"Yamnaya_BGR": 5.83,
"TKM_Parkhai_Eneolithic": 5,
"closestDistances": [
"Simulated_AASI:Averaged: 16.94778",
"LAO_LN_BA:undefined: 27.66927",
"TKM_Parkhai_Eneolithic:undefined: 45.11504",
"Yamnaya_BGR:undefined: 47.22725""

Now testing the same model using Simulated AASI by Matt instead. The fit is alright for the Bonda:Average but not for the Juang. Their AASI ancestry increase while there Mongoloid and Western affinity decreases again.

Now the average Bonda and Juang are now 61-63% AASI, 29% Mongoloid and 8-9% Western Eurasian.

"sample": "Test1:Bonda",
"fit": 1.9202,
"Simulated_AASI": 61.67,
"LAO_LN_BA": 29.17,
"TKM_Parkhai_Eneolithic": 5.83,
"Yamnaya_BGR": 3.33,
"closestDistances": [
"Simulated_AASI:By_Matt: 13.09694",
"LAO_LN_BA:undefined: 27.57428",
"TKM_Parkhai_Eneolithic:undefined: 44.74623",
"Yamnaya_BGR:undefined: 47.20293"

"sample": "Test2:Juang",
"fit": 2.7489,
"Simulated_AASI": 62.5,
"LAO_LN_BA": 29.17,
"Yamnaya_BGR": 5,
"TKM_Parkhai_Eneolithic": 3.33,
"closestDistances": [
"Simulated_AASI:By_Matt: 13.16223",
"LAO_LN_BA:undefined: 27.66927",
"TKM_Parkhai_Eneolithic:undefined: 45.11504",
"Yamnaya_BGR:undefined: 47.22725"


P.S.- The award is not going to go to Andamanese or most Tibeto-Burmans who are West Eurasian blood-free but are not really South Asians genetically....

The fact that the Bonda and Juang is predominantly East Eurasian/ENA and score only 7-11% Western admix is very impressive. Considering how most Indians/South Asians are at least 40-50% Caucasian/Western Eurasian admixed or more... I am very proud in how these tribes managed to keep themselves fairly genetically intact from the ancient Caucasoid invasions/intrusions into the Indian subcontinent which seem to have extremely successful massive impacts on the genetics of South Asian populations.

These guys are literally the reversed or East Eurasian version of the Baloch/Brahui/Makrani tho (those guys just have very little AASI instead). :cool:

But there was another modelling by DMXX on Anthrogenica where he managed to the Bonda and Juang literally zero almost close to zero Western Eurasian. I will show in it the next post.

I made a similar thread before but barely anyone notices or replies: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?289677-Global-K25-models-for-the-Munda-Part-1-Bonda-and-Juang

Maybe this is just very redundant? :confused:

[Thambi]

yeah i'm quite intersted in these groups as well. feel bad that they dont get much recognition on anthroforums. All desis talk about are pashtuns, balochis, whos more baloch, who's more western shifted, etc. Nice to see results of these groups and im pleasantly surprised by them. cool phenos as well.

I think south asians that are heavily caucasoid shifted just integrated as upper, mid, and low castes whereas tribals jsut stayed isolated in southern and central parts. geographically, its not hard at all to contact these people so it is indeed cool to see that they have not mixed much.

[Maguzanci]

yeah i'm quite intersted in these groups as well. feel bad that they dont get much recognition on anthroforums. All desis talk about are pashtuns, balochis, whos more baloch, who's more western shifted, etc. Nice to see results of these groups and im pleasantly surprised by them. cool phenos as well.

I think south asians that are heavily caucasoid shifted just integrated as upper, mid, and low castes whereas tribals jsut stayed isolated in southern and central parts. geographically, its not hard at all to contact these people so it is indeed cool to see that they have not mixed much.

True. South Asians on anthroforums seem to only care about those predominantly Caucasoid fringe, peripheral groups or how West Eurasian their ethnicities are. It's as if they want/obsess to become more Caucasian genetically than they already are or something. Were you surprised by their heavy AASI, significant Mongoloid and very little Western affinity?

Yes their looks/appearance are rather intriguing. Some look almost SE Asian (make sense since they also have a lot of Mongoloid from their Austroasiatic ancestors), other looks very unique like they can't pass anywhere. A few look like low caste South Asians while some even look blackish/negrito.

Mmm never thought about that before. That makes a lot of sense. I think the Caste system also plays a massive role in restricting/limiting any possible massive Western gene flow into those tribals who did not participated in it. Makes me wonder does one need to have a huge load of Caucasian blood flowing in his/her veins to join the caste system?

Yeah I think India/South Asia is very lucky to still have tribal populations who have very distinct and unique genetics like these around. In a vast region where the predominant majority of people have at least 40-50% or more Western-derived blood flowing in their veins, I am incredibly proud and very impressed that they managed to keep themselves relatively intact from most of the massive Caucasian genetic invasions into the subcontinent.

Pure blood AASI might be extinct, but it would be incredibly superb if there are still some tribal individuals left who are West Eurasian blood-free 100% East Eurasian; like only AASI+East Asian without any Western admix. It would be awesome if geneticists can still find such South Asian populations who are genetically Caucasoid-free!

Here are the models done by DMXX on Anthrogenica that it is also possible to decrease the Western affinity of the Bonda and Juang to literally zero or almost zero West Eurasian.

Source: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?17080-Global-K25-models-for-the-Mundas-of-India-Part-1-Bonda-and-Juang&p=569281&viewfull=1#post569281

Quoting DMXX:


You'll find this interesting, Tsak.



Sample Fit Map LAO BA RUS West Siberia N Simulated AASI NW By DMXX Simulated AASI South By DMXX TKM Parkhai Eneolithic
1 Bonda:ORI34 2.2024 Open Map 30 1.2 7.4 61.4 0
2 Bonda:ORI35 2.3381 Open Map 29.6 2.6 5.8 62 0
3 Bonda:ORI36 1.9175 Open Map 32 2 6.2 58.6 1.2
4 Juang:JUANA48 2.6204 Open Map 29.2 2 4 64.8 0


It looks like the West Eurasian proxies you used (Sarazm f.ex.) caused an inflation of the West Eurasian admix in these groups, secondary to the excess WSHG they clearly have (~1-3%). Using a low WSHG Turanian agriculturalist results in a substantial decrease in their W. Eurasian.

Remarkably, here at least, only one of the Bonda and Juang samples had any W. Eurasian at all...

In that sense, they're more akin to being the inverse of Abkhazians (who rarely score any AASI and are near-fully West Eurasian), rather than Balochis (or even Iranians).

[Edit]: Also, just for your info, Chokhopani doesn't seem to be needed if you include the Lao_BA sample. That seems to nicely account for any extra ENA (?Austro-Asiatic admix) they have.

[Maguzanci]

More opinions?

[Thambi]

True. South Asians on anthroforums seem to only care about those predominantly Caucasoid fringe, peripheral groups or how West Eurasian their ethnicities are. It's as if they want/obsess to become more Caucasian genetically than they already are or something. Were you surprised by their heavy AASI, significant Mongoloid and very little Western affinity?

Yes their looks/appearance are rather intriguing. Some look almost SE Asian (make sense since they also have a lot of Mongoloid from their Austroasiatic ancestors), other looks very unique like they can't pass anywhere. A few look like low caste South Asians while some even look blackish/negrito.

Mmm never thought about that before. That makes a lot of sense. I think the Caste system also plays a massive role in restricting/limiting any possible massive Western gene flow into those tribals who did not participated in it. Makes me wonder does one need to have a huge load of Caucasian blood flowing in his/her veins to join the caste system?

Yeah I think India/South Asia is very lucky to still have tribal populations who have very distinct and unique genetics like these around. In a vast region where the predominant majority of people have at least 40-50% or more Western-derived blood flowing in their veins, I am incredibly proud and very impressed that they managed to keep themselves relatively intact from most of the massive Caucasian genetic invasions into the subcontinent.

Pure blood AASI might be extinct, but it would be incredibly superb if there are still some tribal individuals left who are West Eurasian blood-free 100% East Eurasian; like only AASI+East Asian without any Western admix. It would be awesome if geneticists can still find such South Asian populations who are genetically Caucasoid-free!

Here are the models done by DMXX on Anthrogenica that it is also possible to decrease the Western affinity of the Bonda and Juang to literally zero or almost zero West Eurasian.

Source: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?17080-Global-K25-models-for-the-Mundas-of-India-Part-1-Bonda-and-Juang&p=569281&viewfull=1#post569281

Quoting DMXX:

I'm surprised more by their Mongoloid actually. its a significant portion. their language groups fall under the austroasiatic group (juang,munda, bonda, etc) are related to vietnamese, cambodian. Its pretty cool. so they have shared lineage from way back and these austroasiatic groups lived as west as central india.

actually people mixed prior to caste system. it was more based on occupation but its not coincidence that native looking people were among lower castes and more western shifted ones among higher. but due to mixed heritage of all indians, many upper castes look tribalish and decent amount of tribals look western shifted based on some of your classifications, images i've seen online.

[Maguzanci]

I'm surprised more by their Mongoloid actually. its a significant portion. their language groups fall under the austroasiatic group (juang,munda, bonda, etc) are related to vietnamese, cambodian. Its pretty cool. so they have shared lineage from way back and these austroasiatic groups lived as west as central india.

Actually people mixed prior to caste system. it was more based on occupation but its not coincidence that native looking people were among lower castes and more western shifted ones among higher. but due to mixed heritage of all indians, many upper castes look tribalish and decent amount of tribals look western shifted based on some of your classifications, images i've seen online.

Yup they have almost 30% and more Mongoloid ancestry. Also their y-DNA is O2a I think which also peaks in other Austroasiatic groups. Yes you are right they shared common ancestry with the Austroasiatics in SE Asia.

Pure 100% AASI might be extinct, but it would be really awesome, if geneticists can find a tribal population who is genetically 50% AASI+50% East Asian while also being completely free of any Western blood. But I wonder if such population still exist though considering how widespread the Western genetic affinity in India is.

You are right. The epic racial mixing seem to begin much earlier with the widespread and massive invasion of the Wog Neolithic Farmers into South Asia where they interacted and intensively mixed with the AASI hunter gatherers. Makes me wonder what did the Neolithic Farmers look like. While Im guessing AASI phenotypically might look something Australian/Papuan/Melanesian-like. Mixing was based more on occupation? Can you post some examples of upper castes who look tribalish?

Mmm I think this Jharkhand politician from the Austroasiatic Ho tribe which is in another thread that I made, is a good example of a tribal who look western-shifted (despite that genetically he likely has only minor Western genetic affinity)?: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?290752-Guess-and-classify-this-Indian-politician-Where-can-he-pass

https://i.imgur.com/VaHIZZp.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/J1VaN3y.jpg

Btw, what do you think of the models created by DMXX? Also I remembered you wrote on the visitor message that you also have some Global K25 models you want to post?

[Zuh]

How Caucasoid are Singaporeans ? west eurosian etc

[Maguzanci]

How Caucasoid are Singaporeans ? west eurosian etc

For Chinese Singaporeans they are literally zero Caucasoid/West Eurasian.

For Malay Singaporeans, am not really sure as I have not seen any Gedmatch samples from them. But based on Malays from Malaysia who are genetically the same as the Malay Singaporeans, they should be around 5-10% or more Caucasoid genetically which mostly come from their substantial South Asian admix (some more West Euroasian points should be hiding behind the South Asian component as well).

For Indian Singaporeans, they are at least 45-50% or more Western-shifted genetically.

[Zuh]

For Chinese Singaporeans they are literally zero Caucasoid/West Eurasian.

For Malay Singaporeans, am not really sure as I have not seen any Gedmatch samples from them. But based on Malays from Malaysia who are genetically the same as the Malay Singaporeans, they should be around 5-10% or more Caucasoid genetically which mostly come from their substantial South Asian admix (some more West Euroasian points should be hiding behind the South Asian component as well).

For Indian Singaporeans, they are at least 45-50% or more Western-shifted genetically.

What about Filipinos?

[Maguzanci]

What about Filipinos?

Most Flips are either literally zero Caucasoid or around 1-5 Euro%.

However, I have seen few atypical Pino results who range from 10 to 30% or more Euro. But those results are definitely very atypical.

It seems the Spaniards did not genetically enriched the Pinos that much. Which is weird considering how Iberians managed to massively culturally enriched the Flips with Catholicism, Food, Iberian naming system.

[Maguzanci]

Another model for the average Bonda and Juang: The fit is decent for the average Bonda but not as good for the Juang.

Now replacing GEO_CHG as proxy for the Western affinity instead of TJK Sarazm and TKM Parkhai neolithic. Now they are 10% Western-shifted on average.

"sample": "Bonda:Average",
"fit": 1.7407,
"Simulated_AASI": 58.33,
"LAO_LN_BA": 31.67,
"GEO_CHG": 5.83,
"Yamnaya_BGR": 4.17,
"closestDistances": [
"Simulated_AASI:By_Matt: 13.09694",
"Simulated_AASI:By_traject: 21.01142",
"LAO_LN_BA:La364: 27.57428",
"Yamnaya_BGR:Bul4: 47.20293",
"GEO_CHG:KK1: 48.69514"
]
},
{
"sample": "Juang:Average",
"fit": 2.4788,
"Simulated_AASI": 58.33,
"LAO_LN_BA": 31.67,
"Yamnaya_BGR": 6.67,
"GEO_CHG": 3.33,
"closestDistances": [
"Simulated_AASI:By_Matt: 13.16223",
"Simulated_AASI:By_traject: 20.97537",
"LAO_LN_BA:La364: 27.66927",
"Yamnaya_BGR:Bul4: 47.22725",
"GEO_CHG:KK1: 48.99998"

[Thambi]

Yup they have almost 30% and more Mongoloid ancestry. Also their y-DNA is O2a I think which also peaks in other Austroasiatic groups. Yes you are right they shared common ancestry with the Austroasiatics in SE Asia.

Pure 100% AASI might be extinct, but it would be really awesome, if geneticists can find a tribal population who is genetically 50% AASI+50% East Asian while also being completely free of any Western blood. But I wonder if such population still exist though considering how widespread the Western genetic affinity in India is.

You are right. The epic racial mixing seem to begin much earlier with the widespread and massive invasion of the Wog Neolithic Farmers into South Asia where they interacted and intensively mixed with the AASI hunter gatherers. Makes me wonder what did the Neolithic Farmers look like. While Im guessing AASI phenotypically might look something Australian/Papuan/Melanesian-like. Mixing was based more on occupation? Can you post some examples of upper castes who look tribalish?

Mmm I think this Jharkhand politician from the Austroasiatic Ho tribe which is in another thread that I made, is a good example of a tribal who look western-shifted (despite that genetically he likely has only minor Western genetic affinity)?: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?290752-Guess-and-classify-this-Indian-politician-Where-can-he-pass

https://i.imgur.com/VaHIZZp.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/J1VaN3y.jpg

Btw, what do you think of the models created by DMXX? Also I remembered you wrote on the visitor message that you also have some Global K25 models you want to post?

I honestly forgot what i was gonna post lol. but anyways regarding dmxx models, im not sure what they used for simulated AASI and that too NW and S ones and how they distinguished it. Im not sure if any group is exclusively ASI shifted in the NW. The max ASI is among chamars/dalits and they score similar to south indian mid and low castes at most. The results still make sense and props to them for their smart work. I'm more curious on the details. I'll check up on the AG posts. I've not going there on a regular basis. Kinda losing interest of that place slightly lol.

[Thambi]

this woman is a beauty. She probably wouldnt look anything special to most people but idk i really like the way she looks. quite exotic. Hope such phenos continue to survive in the central region of india.

http://www.greatindianjourney.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/orissa-tribal-tour-packages-672x372.jpg