Are Polesians purest Slavs?

[Laag]

Seems many users claim this. What do you think?


Polesians = north ukrainian southern belarusian southwest russian east-central polish

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/Polesia_map_-_topography.jpg/250px-Polesia_map_-_topography.jpg




Central European slavs are very mixed, just like north west russians. Pure slavs are east poles, north ukrainians, and west russians between Smolensk-Kursk and south belorussians in my opinion.

[michal3141]

Yes.

[Ülev]

no one wants be the purest? I wonder why?

[War Chef]

That is the location of the "Pripyat Marshes" from which Slavs are supposed to mysteriously came out of.

[Ford]

That is the location of the "Pripyat Marshes" from which Slavs are supposed to mysteriously came out of.

Nuclear fallout.

[War Chef]

While there is some truth here, I'd say that land area is simply not enough square kilometers to harbor a sizable population. I believe the purest Slavs are found here, with later northern-Belorussians acquiring Baltic admixture:

https://i.imgur.com/UtImtwe.png

https://i.imgur.com/DzKzPSk.png

[Blondie]

Interesting, Pre-Slavic phenotype and it's location:

http://humanphenotypes.net/PreSlavic.html

[Bosniensis]

They are true Slavs 1/1

[Joso]

Interesting, Pre-Slavic phenotype and it's location:

http://humanphenotypes.net/PreSlavic.html

So it is basically an alpine?

[Laag]

no one wants be the purest? I wonder why?

I wish but you know I can't. https://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/icons/icon6.png

[Cumansky]

No, because many Poleshuks resettled from Carpathian region of Ukraine after WWII, and Carpathian is very mixed place alot of Jews lived there and assimilated those Poleshuks.

[Peterski]

Interesting, Pre-Slavic phenotype and it's location:

http://humanphenotypes.net/PreSlavic.html

^^^ Good point. Polesie has a lot of Pre-Slavic type, so it had to be inhabited by other people before Slavs. Pomerania has less of it.

I suppose that the Proto-Slavic homeland was in fact Pomeranian Culture (and Polesie was inhabited by some Pre-Slavic population):

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomeranian_culture

Tollense was probably a battle between Proto-Slavs (Lusatian Culture, Pomeranian branch) vs. Proto-Germans (Nordic & Ems-Weser):

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tollense_valley_battlefield

https://i.imgur.com/EyHgjzZ.png

Why aren't these Germans publishing ancient DNA samples from Tollense battle already? :confused:

[Peterski]

Pre-Slavic type could be associated with I2a-Din hunter-gatherers.

I suppose in the Bronze Age ancestors of Slavic I2a subclades were in Polesie.

Ancestors of Slavic subclades of R1a could be somewhere else at that time.

[War Chef]

^^^ Good point. Polesie has a lot of Pre-Slavic type, so it had to be inhabited by other people before Slavs. Pomerania has less of it.

I suppose that the Proto-Slavic homeland was in fact Pomeranian Culture (and Polesie was inhabited by some Pre-Slavic population):

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomeranian_culture

Tollense was probably a battle between Proto-Slavs (Lusatian Culture, Pomeranian branch) vs. Proto-Germans (Nordic & Ems-Weser):

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tollense_valley_battlefield

https://i.imgur.com/EyHgjzZ.png

Lusatian-Pomeranian-Przeworsk Cultural complex disappeared with the arrival of the Huns. They ended up in Germany, and some as far as Spain & North Africa. I believe it is Lusatian culture who was "something different", not Slavs.

[Cumansky]

Pre-Slavic type could be associated with I2a-Din hunter-gatherers.

I suppose in the Bronze Age ancestors of Slavic I2a were in Polesie.

Ancestors of Slavic subclades of R1a could be somewhere else at that time.

Oldest R1A is in Ukraine, that proves your second point wrong.

[War Chef]

Lusatian-Pomeranian-Przeworsk Cultural complex disappeared with the arrival of the Huns. They ended up in Germany, and some as far as Spain & North Africa. I believe it is Lusatian culture who was "something different", not Slavs.

Bump for edit.

[Peterski]

Lusatian (Pomeranian) Culture disappeared with the arrival of the Huns.

No, Lusatian/Pomeranian was destroyed by expanding Jastorf and Nordic Iron Age.

Huns were many centuries later.

[Peterski]

Oldest R1A is in Ukraine, that proves your second point wrong.

R1a is from Ukrainian Steppe, not from North Ukrainian Forest Zone.

Globular Amphora culture in Ukraine were I2 and Trypillian culture in Ukraine had typical Neolithic haplos (G2a, E1b, etc.).

But I'm talking about hunter-gatherers in Polesie. Neolithic Farmers of Anatolian extraction never colonized Polesie or Belarus.

The farthest Neolithic Farmers (GAC/Trypillians) ever got was Dnieper river in the south-east, Pripyat river and Podlachia (today North-East Poland) in the north-east. They did not settle in Polesie.

[War Chef]

No, Lusatian/Pomeranian was destroyed by expanding Jastorf and Nordic Iron Age.

Huns were many centuries later.

Exactly the point. Poland in Jesus time was full of Wielbark culture with no Slavs in sight. The Slavs came from east.
The Lusatian-Pomeranian-Przeworsk Cultural complex is definitely mysterious but I don't think they were Slavs.

[Cumansky]

Neolithic Farmers of Anatolian extraction never colonized Polesie or Belarus.

Neolithic Farmers got in Polesia and Belarus before and after the war, we don't need to look at ancient artifacts to know the answer of this. You talking about Pale of Settlement right now.

[Peterski]

Exactly the point. Poland in Jesus time was full of Wielbark culture with no Slavs in sight. The Slavs came from east.

Lusatian/Pomeranian was not entirely destroyed by Jastorf/Nordic but pushed to the east, they migrated from Poland into Belarus and Ukraine. That is when they could assimilate those Pre-Slavic I2a-Din hunter-gatherer descendants.

Wielbark culture had two burial traditions - part of the population practiced inhumations (skeletal burials), another - larger - part of the population practiced cremations (burned their dead). This looks like two different ethnicities living in the same territory.

Those who practiced skeletal burials were probably Goths who came from Scandinavia, while those who burned their dead were probably descendants of original Lusatians/Pomeranians (those who remained instead of migrating to Belarus/Ukraine like some of them did).

[War Chef]

Lusatian/Pomeranian was not entirely destroyed by Jastorf/Nordic but pushed to the east, they migrated from Poland into Belarus and Ukraine. That is when they could assimilate those Pre-Slavic I2a-Din hunter-gatherer descendants.

Wielbark culture had two burial traditions - part of the population practiced inhumations (skeletal burials), another - larger - part of the population practiced cremations (burned their dead). This looks like two different ethnicities living in the same territory.

So you are abandoning your "Kiev culture = Slavic homeland" theory? Make up your mind dude. You lose a little credibility when you don't stand firm and switch like this.

[Peterski]

So you are abandoning your "Kiev culture = Slavic homeland" theory? Make up your mind dude. You lose a little credibility when you don't stand firm and switch like this.

Kiev culture could be the homeland of the Antes. But what about two other branches of Early Slavs - Venedi and Sklaveni?

[War Chef]

Kiev culture could be the homeland of the Antes. But what about two other branches of Early Slavs - Venedi and Sklaveni?

The Antes (Penkova culture) were just Slavs with a heavy Iranic core, and minor Gothic residual substrate. They led to the ethnogenesis of south-Slavs, Serbs and Bulgarians especially.

[Peterski]

Already in 100 AD there was a clear-cut linguistic division into West Slavs, East Slavs and South Slavs, according to that 2015 study:

"(...) Our consensus tree (Fig. G in S2 File) suggests the following topological and temporal reconstruction of the Balto-Slavic languages. Initial disintegration of proto-Balto-Slavic into proto-East Baltic and proto-Slavic took place during the 2nd millennium BC. Proto Slavic splits into 3 major clades, East, West, South Slavic around year 100 AD (1900 Years Before Present). Further diversification of each clade into minor clades (i.e. proto-East Slavic: Ukrainian/Belarusian, Russian; proto-West Slavic: Czech/Slovak, Sorbian, Polish/Kashubian; proto-South Slavic: Serbo-Croatian, Bulgarian, Macedonian) took place during the 5th–7th centuries AD (about 1500–1300 YPB), followed by final shaping of individual languages (1000–500 YBP). (...)"

"(...) ternary split into West, East and South dated to around 1900 YBP is suggested in the consensus phylogenetic tree (Fig 1 upper panel, Fig G in S2 File; see Figs B-F in S2 File for Proto-Slavic split discrepancies between different phylogenetic methods). Further diversification of the Slavic languages took place around 1300–1500 YBP, followed by shaping of the individual languages 1000–500 YBP. (...)"

So the division described by Jordanes/Procopius into Veneds, Sklavenes, Antes probably existed already around 100 AD (1900 YBP).

[Jana]

The Antes (Penkova culture) were just Slavs with a heavy Iranic core, and minor Gothic residual substrate. They led to the ethnogenesis of south-Slavs, Serbs and Bulgarians especially.

I tought Antes were ancestors of east slavs, Sklavenians of south slavs, and Venedi of west slavs.

[Jana]

Yes, I think so. :)


No, because many Poleshuks resettled from Carpathian region of Ukraine after WWII, and Carpathian is very mixed place alot of Jews lived there and assimilated those Poleshuks.

When we say Polesians we mean autochtonous Slavs of that region, not recent settlers from who knows where.

[Peterski]

The Antes (Penkova culture)

???

Penkovka culture is chronologically too late, it emerged in the 400s or 500s.

I'm talking about the Antes in the 300s, that was before Penkovka existed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boz_(king)

[XenophobicPrussian]

^^^ Good point. Polesie has a lot of Pre-Slavic type, so it had to be inhabited by other people before Slavs. Pomerania is different.

I suppose that the Proto-Slavic homeland was in fact Pomeranian Culture (and Polesie was inhabited by some Pre-Slavic population):

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomeranian_culture

Tollense was probably a battle between Proto-Slavs (Lusatian Culture; Pomeranian branch) and Proto-Germans (Nordic Bronze Age):

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tollense_valley_battlefield

https://i.imgur.com/EyHgjzZ.png
Why would Pomeranian culture be proto-Slavic? It's thought to be proto-Bastarnae, who are believed to be Celtic or Germanic speakers. It was also closely related to House Urn culture in central Germany, and Lusatian was its predecessor. The only Lusatian culture sample out there is a NW Euro, although he was from the western edge of the culture in Germany and not Poland. Remember that the latest BA Polish samples are Bell Beakers and Unetice, not Corded Ware.

The proto-Slavic cultures are likely Chernoles(Chernoles still could've been speaking pre-split Balto-Slavic though), Milograd, then Zarubintsy culture. Even Przeworsk culture had too much Germanic/Hallstatt influence, but also some from Zarubintsy, which indicates a migration from the east. I know you're Polish and want to have nativity to the region, but conquering a region is way cooler than being native to it anyway, especially from such a small area.

I admit the Tollense battlefield is good evidence for Lusatian/Pomeranian being NE Euro, but the eastern shifted samples they could've been Balts or just Slavs who travelled far. Germanics, Balts and Slavs were all mobile people. Most Slavic vs Roman and Germanic vs Roman battles were fought in Roman territory, not theirs.

[War Chef]

I tought Antes were ancestors of east slavs, Sklavenians of south slavs, and Venedi of west slavs.

Seems simplistic but it's possible. Antes were the group that stood in the war-path of the Avars and disapeared after being (violently) conquered by the Avars.


The Avars sent their general Apsich to "destroy the nation of the Antes".[43] Despite numerous defections to the Romans during the campaign, the Avar attack appears to have ended the Antean polity. They never appear in sources apart from the epithet Anticus in the imperial titulature in 612. Curta argues that the 602 attack on the Antes destroyed their political independence.[44] However, the epithet Anticus is attested in imperial titulature until 612, thus Kardaras rather argues that they disappearance of the Antes relates to general collapse of the Scythian/ lower Danubian limes which they defended, at which time their hegemony on the lower Danube ended.[45] Whatever the case, shortly after the collapse of the Danubian limes (more specifically, the tactical Roman withdrawal), the first evidence of Slavic settlement in north-eastern Bulgaria begin to appear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antes_(people)#6th_and_7th_centuries

I am willing to bet this "Avar" treasure uncovered in Hungary/Romania border depicts a captive Ante. But could also be anybody really.

https://i.imgur.com/dehmv9c.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_of_Nagyszentmikl%C3%B3s

Here is an interesting article that separates the three (Sklavenes, Venedi, & Antes) and in summary says that the Sklavene material culture was nothing like Venedi and Prague/Korchak cultures. Sklavenes were distinct.

https://indo-european.eu/2019/04/common-slavs-from-the-lower-danube-expanding-with-haplogroup-e1b-v13/

[Peterski]

Why would Pomeranian culture be proto-Slavic?

DNA samples have "eastern pull" (more Finnic than Slavic but still, probably because these samples predate Slavic bottleneck / Slavic-specific drift):

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?287204-DNA-of-ancient-inhabitants-of-Poland-and-neighbouring-areas

^^^
I'm talking about Kujawy CWC and Kujawy Iwno samples (that's the closest geographically and chronologically to Lusatian that we have got so far):

https://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/ancient-human-dna_41837#11/52.5701/18.9948

[MagnusDark]

^^^ Good point. Polesie has a lot of Pre-Slavic type, so it had to be inhabited by other people before Slavs. Pomerania has less of it.

I suppose that the Proto-Slavic homeland was in fact Pomeranian Culture (and Polesie was inhabited by some Pre-Slavic population):

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomeranian_culture

Tollense was probably a battle between Proto-Slavs (Lusatian Culture, Pomeranian branch) vs. Proto-Germans (Nordic & Ems-Weser):

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tollense_valley_battlefield

https://i.imgur.com/EyHgjzZ.png

Why aren't these Germans publishing ancient DNA samples from Tollense battle already? :confused:

agreed. 2000 plus male remains and nothing. Seems they're afraid to publish the results. Could potentially crush the historical narrative of the last 300 years,.

[War Chef]

???

Penkovka culture is chronologically too late, it emerged in the 400s or 500s.

I'm talking about the Antes in the 300s, that was before Penkovka existed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boz_(king)

OK I understand what you mean now. So you are asking who this king Boz that the Chernyakov Gothic King Ermanaric fought, which culture was he affiliated with? And you think Kiev Culture?

[Jana]

First Slavic toponyms/hydronyms in Poland appear along upper Vistula river basin, in southeastern Poland - to my knowledge.
northwest from them lived east germanics, and northeast of them, balts.

[Peterski]

OK I understand what you mean now. So you are asking who this king Boz that the Chernyakov Gothic King Ermanaric fought, which culture was he affiliated with? And you think Kiev Culture?

Yeah probably Kiev Culture, what do you think?

[MagnusDark]

Oldest R1A is in Ukraine, that proves your second point wrong.

That was M417. Alot of movement happened between then and the formation/collapse of Lusatian, Milograd and collapse of other cultures around the area. M458, Z280, Z284 likely diverged from Z283 somewhere around Hungary(or so the theory holds), with Z280 and M458 going north and east, and Z284 becoming Scandinavians. Germanic L664 probably arrived earlier. Idk how old the oldest Z280 sample is, but one was found in Ukraine, most around the Baltic domain. Still no M458 samples, but we can only hope something comes up.

[War Chef]

Yeah probably Kiev Culture, what do you think?

I think you have some good logic. It is possible the Antes were the first Slavic wave out of the Kiev culture to hit the steppes (seizing vacated Chernyakov land, excellent for farming (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernozem)). Many Slavic waves after that to hit the Steppes but the Antes were the 1st ones and likely the most unluckiest because they got completely SHREDDED by the Avars.

Alternatively the Antes were a Alan-Slav confederation that had not yet become subject to the Huns, living just east of the Chernyakhov culture, rather than north-east as you suggest.

And the 3rd option, Jordanes accounts written 150 years after the Gothic migration are not credible. Considering he said Goths came from "Gothiscandza" and yet their DNA shows north-west German/Dutch.

[War Chef]

Why aren't these Germans publishing ancient DNA samples from Tollense battle already? :confused:

They didn't?

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?225262-Tollense-warriors-PCA-(1250-BC)

[MagnusDark]

They didn't?

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?225262-Tollense-warriors-PCA-(1250-BC)

I think he means Y-DNA. They have over 2000 male samples and I think all they did was extract MtDNA and autosomal from some of them.

[Blondie]

So it is basically an alpine?

No, it's a subtype of east europid

[Alenka]

Pre-Slavic type could be associated with I2a-Din hunter-gatherers.

I suppose in the Bronze Age ancestors of Slavic I2a subclades were in Polesie.

Ancestors of Slavic subclades of R1a could be somewhere else at that time.
Yes. At that time R1a was still in Arctic tundra.
:p

[Laag]

So it is basically an alpine?

Well, as always in anthropology various authors can have different views. For example Coon included it in his Neo Danubian type.


PRE-SLAVIC. Czekanowski’s name for the type called in this work Neo-Danubian.

[Peterski]

They didn't?

Not in high enough quality.


And the 3rd option, Jordanes accounts written 150 years after the Gothic migration are not credible. Considering he said Goths came from "Gothiscandza" and yet their DNA shows north-west German/Dutch.

Where did you take this info from? There are no any Gothic ancient DNA samples officially published yet.

But according to various leaks, they were like Northern Danes and Southern Swedes (Jutland Iron Age):

https://i.imgur.com/1vvEXSi.jpg

Jordanes was 100% credible.

[War Chef]

Not in high enough quality.



Where did you take this info from? There are no any Gothic ancient DNA samples officially published yet.

But according to various leaks, they were like Northern Danes and Southern Swedes (Jutland Iron Age):

https://i.imgur.com/1vvEXSi.jpg

Jordanes was 100% credible.

Visigoth Samples, try them out yourself:

BA8274765 (Visigoth I12031) [-] Visigoth Mixed Slav Girona (550 AD)
LK3037074 (Visigoth I12034) [-] Visigoth Iberian Girona (550 AD)
KH6396435 (Visigoth I12163) [-] Visigoth Germanic Girona (550 AD)
YK2572384 (Visigoth I12162) [-] Visigoth Germanic Girona
EA3865424 (Visigoth I12032) [-] Visigoth Germanic Girona (550 AD)



Eurogenes K15 sample for 1 of them (I'm too lazy to do all):


Using 1 population approximation:
1 West_German @ 5.637678
2 South_Dutch @ 9.765050
3 French @ 10.490958
4 North_German @ 12.457056
5 Southwest_English @ 13.245563
6 Southeast_English @ 13.550814
7 Danish @ 13.682643
8 North_Dutch @ 13.726155
9 East_German @ 14.005826
10 Norwegian @ 14.863341
11 Hungarian @ 14.885032
12 Swedish @ 15.250495
13 Irish @ 15.407882
14 West_Scottish @ 15.636147
15 Orcadian @ 15.804193
16 Serbian @ 15.846081
17 Austrian @ 16.139654
18 West_Norwegian @ 16.378786
19 North_Swedish @ 16.539251
20 Spanish_Galicia @ 17.513458

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% West_German +50% West_German @ 5.637678


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Norwegian +25% South_Italian +25% West_German @ 3.026695


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Cyprian + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 2.112674
2 Cyprian + Norwegian + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 2.257430
3 Cyprian + Orcadian + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 2.298758
4 Italian_Jewish + West_German + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 2.390142
5 Cyprian + Norwegian + Orcadian + West_Norwegian @ 2.397161
6 Cyprian + North_Dutch + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 2.504096
7 Italian_Jewish + Norwegian + West_German + West_Norwegian @ 2.520426
8 South_Italian + West_German + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 2.525777
9 Cyprian + Danish + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 2.598710
10 Cyprian + Norwegian + Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 2.620596
11 Sephardic_Jewish + West_German + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 2.624099
12 Cyprian + Southwest_English + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 2.647964
13 Norwegian + South_Italian + West_German + West_Norwegian @ 2.669174
14 Cyprian + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian + West_Scottish @ 2.671223
15 Italian_Jewish + Swedish + West_German + West_Norwegian @ 2.704656
16 Cyprian + Southeast_English + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 2.708247
17 Cyprian + Orcadian + Swedish + West_Norwegian @ 2.712868
18 Cyprian + Norwegian + Norwegian + Orcadian @ 2.737288
19 Central_Greek + West_German + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 2.786638
20 Algerian_Jewish + West_German + West_Norwegian + West_Norwegian @ 2.817639

[Peterski]

Visigoth Samples, try them out yourself

I have seen the results of those samples and I also uploaded them to GEDmatch.

500 years and 4000 kilometers after leaving Gothiscandza, come on... They are mixed with a lot of other groups.

[Ülev]

b.u.m.p.

[Corporate_Demolisher]

Well "Slav" is a linguistic group not an ethnic group, although you could use the term "ethnolinguistic".

Many West Slavs can look very Germanic, especially Czechs/Slovenes/Poles. There are certain faces that you find in Eastern Balkans or ex-USSR states that would stick out in Central Europe.

[cass]

^^^ Good point. Polesie has a lot of Pre-Slavic type, so it had to be inhabited by other people before Slavs. Pomerania has less of it.

I suppose that the Proto-Slavic homeland was in fact Pomeranian Culture (and Polesie was inhabited by some Pre-Slavic population):

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomeranian_culture

Tollense was probably a battle between Proto-Slavs (Lusatian Culture, Pomeranian branch) vs. Proto-Germans (Nordic & Ems-Weser):

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tollense_valley_battlefield

https://i.imgur.com/EyHgjzZ.png

Why aren't these Germans publishing ancient DNA samples from Tollense battle already? :confused:


Interesting, Pre-Slavic phenotype and it's location:

http://humanphenotypes.net/PreSlavic.html
This site is pure idiocy.


https://i.postimg.cc/C166wdpm/preslavic.jpg
PRE so BEFORE
Its Czekanowski’s old name for “Ofnet like” type, the most frequent in France, Hungary and Italy.