Illyrian haplogroup...

[safinator]

Which was the original Illyrian haplogroup.
Some people say it was I2a2 but i'm not sure about this.
I think it was a mixture between E - V13 and R1a.
What are your thoughts?

[Ushtari]

Dont rely to much on Igenea

[justme]

Which was the original Illyrian haplogroup.
Some people say it was I2a2 but i'm not sure about this.
I think it was a mixture between E - V13 and R1a.
What are your thoughts?


Dont rely to much on Igenea
No don't rely too much in the other sites such as dieneka because IGENEA clearly states that there are no data results on Kosovo haplogroups, remember that when IGENEA did those tests Kosovo wasn't even independent yet, according to IGENEA there are no results on Kosovo.
So we don't know if it's I, R, J or E.

[The King, I am]

EV-13
I2
then R1a (came later)

[justme]

EV-13
I2
then R1a (came later)
You can't say E-v13 or I2 is illyrian no one knows which one it is, and why people quote kosovo Albanians when there are no actual data on them?! Forget about ignoring IGENEA people should start ignoring dieneka instead.

[The King, I am]

You can't say E-v13 or I2 is illyrian no one knows which one it is, and why people quote kosovo Albanians when there are no actual data on them?! Forget about ignoring IGENEA people should start ignoring dieneka instead.

EV-13 is the most ancient so it must be that one (if you use logic)

[The King, I am]

You can't say E-v13 or I2 is illyrian no one knows which one it is, and why people quote kosovo Albanians when there are no actual data on them?! Forget about ignoring IGENEA people should start ignoring dieneka instead.

EV-13 is the most ancient so it must be that one (if you use logic)

[justme]

EV-13 is the most ancient so it must be that one (if you use logic)
Well I am using logic... But the point is that when those tests were done in kosovo, kosovo wasn't even independent, so we'd have to wait until Kosovo gets tested as an independent state. I know E-v13 is very old in Balkans.

[The King, I am]

Well I am using logic... But the point is that when those tests were done in kosovo, kosovo wasn't even independent, so we'd have to wait until Kosovo gets tested as an independent state. I know E-v13 is very old in Balkans.

yup
original Balkanites were EV-13 carriers

[justme]

yup
original Balkanites were EV-13 carriers
But how do we know that?

[The King, I am]

But how do we know that?

Cos it's logical
R1a is recent
I2 is a recent haplogroup
EV-13 is ancient and so are Illyrians

[justme]

Cos it's logical
R1a is recent
I2 is a recent haplogroup
EV-13 is ancient and so are Illyrians
But I2 is proven to be very old in Balkans like E-v13.

[The King, I am]

But I2 is proven to be very old in Balkans like E-v13.

Yes but EV-13 is even more ancient, original Balkanites were EV-13
then I2 came a long time ago
then Slavs

[justme]

Yes but EV-13 is even more ancient, original Balkanites were EV-13
then I2 came a long time ago
then Slavs
Are you only stating that because South Slavs have high I2? I2 or EV-13 no one knows which is older. I'm sorry if I sound stupid but most people who carry similar haplogroups tend to lookalike.. E.g. Poles with Ukrainians, and Turks with Armenians. So I don't see Albanians from Kosovo looking like Cypriots... I know what your about to say but look at countries that share similar haplogroups you will see that what I'm saying is more likely true.
Haplogroup 12 is just as old as EV-13.

[The King, I am]

Are you only stating that because South Slavs have high I2? I2 or EV-13 no one knows which is older. I'm sorry if I sound stupid but most people who carry similar haplogroups tend to lookalike.. E.g. Poles with Ukrainians, and Turks with Armenians. So I don't see Albanians from Kosovo looking like Cypriots... I know what your about to say but look at countries that share similar haplogroups you will see that what I'm saying is more likely true.
Haplogroup 12 is just as old as EV-13.

Why would Cypriots look like Albanians:confused:

[justme]

Why would Cypriots look like Albanians:confused: the question shouldn't be why would Cypriots look like Albanians? but the question should be why do most ethnicities/countries that share the same haplogroup look similar? It's clearly obvious compare countries and ethnicities that share the same haplogroup and you'll see what I'm talking about they look similar you can't even deny it.

[The King, I am]

the question shouldn't be why would Cypriots look like Albanians? but the question should be why do most ethnicities/countries that share the same haplogroup look similar? It's clearly obvious compare countries and ethnicities that share the same haplogroup and you'll see what I'm talking about they look similar you can't even deny it.

Albanians don't look like cypriots :mad:

[justme]

Albanians don't look like cypriots :mad:
No they don't look like Cypriots but Cypriots are very high in EV-13 and take for example Latvia and Finland they share the same haplogroups and they look alike! Another one would be Britian and Iberia, and Croatia and Bosnia and Greeks with Levantines, Poles with Ukrainians all of these countries share similar haplogroups and on top of that they look very alike, some of these countries aren't even close neighbours, like Britian and Iberia or Greece with the Middle East, Latvia with Finland.

[The King, I am]

No they don't look like Cypriots but Cypriots are very high in EV-13 and take for example Latvia and Finland they share the same haplogroups and they look alike! Another one would be Britian and Iberia, and Croatia and Bosnia and Greeks with Levantines, Poles with Ukrainians all of these countries share similar haplogroups and on top of that they look very alike, some of these countries aren't even close neighbours, like Britian and Iberia or Greece with the Middle East, Latvia with Finland.

Brits don't look like Spaniards

[justme]

Brits don't look like Spaniards
They don't look like spanards but they do look similar to those who have high R and I haplogroups such as the basque.

[The King, I am]

They don't look like spanards but they do look similar to those who have high R and I haplogroups such as the basque.

its not all to do with haplogroups

[justme]

its not all to do with haplogroups
I find that hard to believe...

[The King, I am]

I find that hard to believe...

it's a fact

[justme]

it's a factthen please tell me why ethnicities with similar haplogroups look similar? But different to those who have different haplogroups?

[The King, I am]

then please tell me why ethnicities with similar haplogroups look similar? But different to those who have different haplogroups?

that's a fact? or your opinion

[justme]

that's a fact? or your opinionjust look at pictures of ethnicities.

[The King, I am]

just look at pictures of ethnicities.

Me too...

[Stefan_Dusan]

By the question I mean what paternal haplogroup did Illyrian men have if it were for us to test them.

If there was one (there probably wasn't as they spread such a wide territory), but anyways curious to hear people's theories.

Contenders are:

EV-13

I2* (which in Balkans is dominated by I2a2b but other subclades exist)

J2

J1

R1b*

Is probably the conventional guesses, but others are always welcome

[Pjeter Pan]

Most likely ev-13 was dominate,
But who knows.

[Tacitus]

Probably the first two, if this study is anything to go by: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?122101-Linking-Italy-and-the-Balkans-A-Y-chromosome-perspective-from-the-Arbereshe-of-Calabria.

Long story short, the two most common haplogroups found in the Arbereshe sampled were e-v13 and i, neither of which are common in Calabria (16% and 2% respectively), but are obviously found in the Balkans in much higher numbers.

[Stefan_Dusan]

When I first started reading about haplogroups, I myself bought into the notion that I2a2b was "Illyrian" marker. I then read some more, was persuaded by the arguments that the center of diversity of I2a was in Ukraine, Moldova and so an origin in the Balkans was not likely. I became then convinced that I2a2b was the marker of the slavs who came to the Balkans, and then later specifically the Serbs since it's concentrated out of Herzegovina.

So I turned my attention to EV-13. It was especially concentrated amongst Albanians (Kosovo Albanians), but also Montenegrins, Serbia, Macedonia and dying down as you went north. It was also found in southeastern Italy. However, I never thought to apply the argument that moved I2a2b's origin to Ukraine: the diversity of EV-13.

On my samples of Balkan people, these are haplogroups of the people:

(variants of J): J1e, J2, J2b1, J2b2*, J2a1b*.

With variants of I, I have:

I1, I1*, I2, I2b1, I2b1*, I2a2, I2a2b,

With R1b, I have:

R1b1b2*, R1b1b2a, R1b1b2a1a, R1b1b2a1a2d3

With R1a I have

R1a1a, R1a1a*

With G I have

G2, G2a, G2a5

So that leaves the oddball, E1b1b1a2* (EV-13) and N (but this definitely came with the Turks). Literally no diversity. The Illyrians were an ancient people who lived in the Balkans for many millennia before even the Romans. I don't think EV-13 can be considered a contender anymore. If it was around so long in the Balkans, one should expect more diversity.

[1stLightHorse]

When I first started reading about haplogroups, I myself bought into the notion that I2a2b was "Illyrian" marker. I then read some more, was persuaded by the arguments that the center of diversity of I2a was in Ukraine, Moldova and so an origin in the Balkans was not likely. I became then convinced that I2a2b was the marker of the slavs who came to the Balkans, and then later specifically the Serbs since it's concentrated out of Herzegovina.

So I turned my attention to EV-13. It was especially concentrated amongst Albanians (Kosovo Albanians), but also Montenegrins, Serbia, Macedonia and dying down as you went north. It was also found in southeastern Italy. However, I never thought to apply the argument that moved I2a2b's origin to Ukraine: the diversity of EV-13.

On my samples of Balkan people, these are haplogroups of the people:

(variants of J): J1e, J2, J2b1, J2b2*, J2a1b*.

With variants of I, I have:

I1, I1*, I2, I2b1, I2b1*, I2a2, I2a2b,

With R1b, I have:

R1b1b2*, R1b1b2a, R1b1b2a1a, R1b1b2a1a2d3

With R1a I have

R1a1a, R1a1a*

With G I have

G2, G2a, G2a5

So that leaves the oddball, E1b1b1a2* (EV-13) and N (but this definitely came with the Turks). Literally no diversity. The Illyrians were an ancient people who lived in the Balkans for many millennia before even the Romans. I don't think EV-13 can be considered a contender anymore. If it was around so long in the Balkans, one should expect more diversity.

It's cool you started this thread, i had this question in my mind the other day and this is the same conclusion i reached.

There is no question in my mind that the oldest lineage(s) in the Balkans are Haplogroup IJ or haplogroup I. So whether these became the Illyrians (with neolithic input), i don't know.

[Tacitus]

When I first started reading about haplogroups, I myself bought into the notion that I2a2b was "Illyrian" marker. I then read some more, was persuaded by the arguments that the center of diversity of I2a was in Ukraine, Moldova and so an origin in the Balkans was not likely. I became then convinced that I2a2b was the marker of the slavs who came to the Balkans, and then later specifically the Serbs since it's concentrated out of Herzegovina.

So I turned my attention to EV-13. It was especially concentrated amongst Albanians (Kosovo Albanians), but also Montenegrins, Serbia, Macedonia and dying down as you went north. It was also found in southeastern Italy. However, I never thought to apply the argument that moved I2a2b's origin to Ukraine: the diversity of EV-13.

On my samples of Balkan people, these are haplogroups of the people:

(variants of J): J1e, J2, J2b1, J2b2*, J2a1b*.

With variants of I, I have:

I1, I1*, I2, I2b1, I2b1*, I2a2, I2a2b,

With R1b, I have:

R1b1b2*, R1b1b2a, R1b1b2a1a, R1b1b2a1a2d3

With R1a I have

R1a1a, R1a1a*

With G I have

G2, G2a, G2a5

So that leaves the oddball, E1b1b1a2* (EV-13) and N (but this definitely came with the Turks). Literally no diversity. The Illyrians were an ancient people who lived in the Balkans for many millennia before even the Romans. I don't think EV-13 can be considered a contender anymore. If it was around so long in the Balkans, one should expect more diversity.

In the study I linked, the amount of I was higher among the Arbereshe than Albanians living in Albania today (23% to 16%). If you think that I originated with the Slav settlers, what do you think that says about the Arbereshe descended from medieval Albos?

[1stLightHorse]

In the study I linked, the amount of I was higher among the Arbereshe than Albanians living in Albania today (23% to 16%). If you think that I originated with the Slav settlers, what do you think that says about the Arbereshe descended from medieval Albos?

Was that the study that found high I2 and J2 among arbereshe?

[Tacitus]

Was that the study that found high I2 and J2 among arbereshe?

J2 was actually only found in 3% of those sampled, compared to 17% in the Albanian sample. But yes, I2 was found at the second highest rate (23%), behind E-V13 (28%), with R1a1 in third (18%).

[Stefan_Dusan]

In the study I linked, the amount of I was higher among the Arbereshe than Albanians living in Albania today (23% to 16%). If you think that I originated with the Slav settlers, what do you think that says about the Arbereshe descended from medieval Albos?

I don't think I originated with slavs. That would be a fallacy since Germanics have it more. I2a2b by itself (or all branches from I2a and on) seem to be present amongst slavs, not only in the Balkans but in Eastern Europe as well. At the same time I2b seems to be present amongst Germanics, and not so much slavs, as well as Balkan people.

I think if we consider the Illyrians like an ancient source for the rest of Europe, I might have originated there and spread elsewhere to Europe. I2a2b (specifically) might have come back with the slavic migrations. And this may explain it's dominance. However there is a diversity of I that needs to be explained in the Balkans, and Germanic settlers is not very convincing.

[Stefan_Dusan]

J2 was actually only found in 3% of those sampled, compared to 17% in the Albanian sample. But yes, I2 was found at the second highest rate (23%), behind E-V13 (28%), with R1a1a* in third (18%).

It's interesting that Arbereshe are so high in R1a1a*. Italy itself has almost no slavic or hungarian influence so all the R1a1a* they carry seems to be original to them. However, Albanians themselves have very low R1a1a*….

[Tacitus]

I think if we consider the Illyrians like an ancient source for the rest of Europe, I might have originated there and spread elsewhere to Europe. I2a2b (specifically) might have come back with the slavic migrations.

Makes sense, since I is so high in the Balkans it could have been a point of origin, and then was reinforced by Slavic migrations later on.

[1stLightHorse]

I don't think I originated with slavs. That would be a fallacy since Germanics have it more. I2a2b by itself (or all branches from I2a and on) seem to be present amongst slavs, not only in the Balkans but in Eastern Europe as well. At the same time I2b seems to be present amongst Germanics, and not so much slavs, as well as Balkan people.

I think if we consider the Illyrians like an ancient source for the rest of Europe, I might have originated there and spread elsewhere to Europe. I2a2b (specifically) might have come back with the slavic migrations.

I was reading the other day that I2b1 found in Danish, English, Swedish and Germans (Germanics):


Haplogroup I2a2a has been found in over 4% of the population only in Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, probably moving tribes of Dacians. England (excluding Cornwall), Scotland, possibly descendants of the Iazyges, Legio VI Victrix, ] 175 410 AD, also the southern tips of Sweden and Norway in Northwest Europe ???

[Tacitus]

It's interesting that Arbereshe are so high in R1a1a*. Italy itself has almost no slavic or hungarian influence so all the R1a1a* they carry seems to be original to them. However, Albanians themselves have very low R1a1a*….

My bad, there's a typo there; its R1a1, not R1a1a.

[Stefan_Dusan]

I was reading the other day that I2b1 found in Danish, English, Swedish and Germans (Germanics):

???

Dacians are the supposed ancient ancestor of the Romanians and on my 23andMe many do have I2a2b. That could be from slavic influence or maybe I2a2b is just more widespread than previously believed.

[Stefan_Dusan]

I think J was introduced by neolithic farmers.

EV-13 I suspect is even more recent, and I think ship-bearing people brought it. It seems to be introduced to the Balkan via coastal cities along Herzegovina, Montenegro, Albania, and the Peloponnese and spread from there. However what's interesting is just how disparate EV-13 is. It's found in coastal England, netherlands (Loki), this to me also suggests some sea-bearing people brought it around Europe.

[Insuperable]

I think J was introduced by neolithic farmers.

EV-13 I suspect is even more recent, and I think ship-bearing people brought it. It seems to be introduced to the Balkan via coastal cities along Herzegovina, Montenegro, Albania, and the Peloponnese and spread from there. However what's interesting is just how disparate EV-13 is. It's found in coastal England, netherlands (Loki), this to me also suggests some sea-bearing people brought it around Europe.

I know there is a 7000 years old farmer with EV-13 identified in Spain.

[Stefan_Dusan]

I know there is a 7000 years old farmer with EV-13 identified in Spain.

Interesting do you have link to this? I cannot imagine EV-13 existing in Europe for 7,000 years and not developing sister clades. But maybe they still haven't been discovered.

[Insuperable]

Interesting do you have link to this? I cannot imagine EV-13 existing in Europe for 7,000 years and not developing sister clades. But maybe they still haven't been discovered.

I read it here
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?84141-Iberian-DNA-haplogroups-from-20-000-4-340-years-ago-exactly-like-modern-Europeans

[Insuperable]

Interesting do you have link to this? I cannot imagine EV-13 existing in Europe for 7,000 years and not developing sister clades. But maybe they still haven't been discovered.

Here is a better link
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/11/y-haplogroups-e-v13-and-g2a-in.html

[kuqezi]

I think J was introduced by neolithic farmers.

EV-13 I suspect is even more recent, and I think ship-bearing people brought it. It seems to be introduced to the Balkan via coastal cities along Herzegovina, Montenegro, Albania, and the Peloponnese and spread from there. However what's interesting is just how disparate EV-13 is. It's found in coastal England, netherlands (Loki), this to me also suggests some sea-bearing people brought it around Europe.

I thought the older EV-13 predecessor markers and variation are in Greece? I read this in Dienekes' blog. And if this came from sea farers it would logically be the Greeks but I don't think that can explain how wide spread it is like among Albanians, a point of a heated debate between Dienekes and commentator there. My hunch is that it has something to do with non-Indoeuropean native Balkan or south Balkan inhabitants call them the Pelasgians or whatever. That seems to make sense considering Albanians being the most paleo-Balkan people and high E-V13 in the phenotypically paleo-Balkan Montenegrins.

[ChocolateFace]

Possibly all of them.

[Stefan_Dusan]

I thought the older EV-13 predecessor markers and variation are in Greece? I read this in Dienekes' blog. And if this came from sea farers it would logically be the Greeks but I don't think that can explain how wide spread it is like among Albanians, a point of a heated debate between Dienekes and commentator there. My hunch is that it has something to do with non-Indoeuropean native Balkan or south Balkan inhabitants call them the Pelasgians or whatever. That seems to make sense considering Albanians being the most paleo-Balkan people and high E-V13 in the phenotypically paleo-Balkan Montenegrins.

Albanians not so much, but northern Albanians have it in high numbers. Tosks on other hand seem to be more R1b, J and other stuff.

One other interesting population very high in EV-13 is Greeks from the Peloponnese, almost similar concentration as Kosovo Albanians (and presumably northern Albanians).

[Stefan_Dusan]

Montenegrins on my 23andMe and Serbs from Croatia also seem to have it in huge abundance.

[kuqezi]

Albanians not so much, but northern Albanians have it in high numbers. Tosks on other hand seem to be more R1b, J and other stuff.

One other interesting population very high in EV-13 is Greeks from the Peloponnese, almost similar concentration as Kosovo Albanians (and presumably northern Albanians).

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html

Check that out, especially the comments. And by Albanians you should know by now I mean northern Albanians as the original ones lol. In the south many others were assimilated.

[Black Wolf]

Most likely a mix of E-V13, J2b, I2a, and R1b mainly. Hard to say for sure though we need ancient DNA for that.

[Stefan_Dusan]

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html

Check that out, especially the comments. And by Albanians you should know by now I mean northern Albanians as the original ones lol. In the south many others were assimilated.

Interesting, I didn't get through it but this caught my eye:


I am surprised that a person of your interests has not remarked on the possible role of "Arvanites" in the Greek distribution of V13

This is unlikely to have made an impact, for several reasons:

1) Arvanites settled in very specific Greek locations and quite recently (less than 1000 years for sure), but E-V13 is found all over Greece, in Greek testees from Asia Minor, in Crete, in Cyprus. Indeed, it is one of the most uniformly distributed haplogroups in Greece, which is inconsistent with it being the result of recent admixture.

2) To reach Albania, E-V13 must have passed through Greece. It is less parsimonious to suggest that E-V13 flew over Greece to its north and then back to Greece

3) I already mention in my post the evidence from Calabria where the Albanian minority does not possess it in any great degree, while regular Calabrians (who are significantly of Greek descent, both ancient and medieval) do.

4) Peloponnesians have both more of it and it is more diverse in them than in Albanians

5) Admixture can sometimes lead to increased diversity, but this happens when differentiated undetected subclades of a haplogroup mix. On the other hand, E-V13 has a very clear starlike phylogeny and thus this is not the case. The mix of pre-Arvanite and Arvanite E-V13 would simply not increase STR variance by much.

6) There is good evidence that the Albanians did not inhabit the region they now inhabit originally. Albanian lacks sea-related vocabulary and Greek loan words, which would be strange if they were the next-door neighbors of the Greeks since prehistory.

The E-V13 in Albania is probably the result of absorption of pre-Albanian speakers, particularly Epirotes and the descendants of Greek colonists from the Peloponnese.

I find this last line interesting because the first recognized source of the Albanian people back around 11th century is of them in Epirus. Afterwards within 100 years sources of them multiply all over the Balkans up to Dalmatia. And by 1300s, they are roughly mentioned in present day Albania, and isolated communities throughout Greece including Epirus, the Peloponnese (and it's neighbor village, Athens).

What do you think is going on there?

[ChocolateFace]

Interesting, I didn't get through it but this caught my eye:



I find this last line interesting because the first recognized source of the Albanian people back around 11th century is of them in Epirus. Afterwards within 100 years sources of them multiply all over the Balkans up to Dalmatia. And by 1300s, they are roughly mentioned in present day Albania, and isolated communities throughout Greece including Epirus, the Peloponnese (and it's neighbor village, Athens).

What do you think is going on there?

Dienekes is trying to make E-v13 look more Greek since I believe he is Greek.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Dienekes is trying to make E-v13 look more Greek since I believe he is Greek.

He is, but in his argument the center of EV-13 diversity is Greece, as well as the age of EV-13 is a lot older in Greece. All according to his research and model but interesting nonetheless if we try to understand EV-13 role in the Balkan.

[kuqezi]

Interesting, I didn't get through it but this caught my eye:



I find this last line interesting because the first recognized source of the Albanian people back around 11th century is of them in Epirus. Afterwards within 100 years sources of them multiply all over the Balkans up to Dalmatia. And by 1300s, they are roughly mentioned in present day Albania, and isolated communities throughout Greece including Epirus, the Peloponnese (and it's neighbor village, Athens).

What do you think is going on there?

First you have to keep in mind that Dienekes seems to believe Albanians are from central or southern Serbia which goes against the most conclusions by some of the most astute scholars about Albanians. Also keep in mind that northern Albania though out history has been among the if not the most isolated places in Europe whose inhabitants were just coming out of the Iron Age when Coon studied them. I believe its the unusual isolation of the Albanian (originally best represented by the Ghegs) that accounts for the many anomalies concerning the Albanians and their origins which I also believe would extend to their genetics.

Some of the same factors and population pressures that existed when we expanded into Kosovo were present when we expanded south into Greece. The migrations are well recorded and Greece at that time was in a worse turmoil state than Kosovo was in when we expanded, they were even invited many times by the Byzantines. You should read though Robert Elsie's historical sources that he published which can answer most questions that can possibly pop up during our recorded history.

[Skerdilaid]

Interesting, I didn't get through it but this caught my eye:



I find this last line interesting because the first recognized source of the Albanian people back around 11th century is of them in Epirus. Afterwards within 100 years sources of them multiply all over the Balkans up to Dalmatia. And by 1300s, they are roughly mentioned in present day Albania, and isolated communities throughout Greece including Epirus, the Peloponnese (and it's neighbor village, Athens).

What do you think is going on there?

His theory is flawed, because he actually doesn't even know where to place Albanians. He seems to think that we neither inhabited Kosova or Albanian itself, but at the same time we have the most Greek imprint.:D He also argues that Albanian does not have Greek loan words, which he is wrong, we do have quite some Doric Greek words and in Gheg more then Tosk. Also, Albanian does not lack sea fearing words as he seem to think, the most basic words for example are original. Like for example Sea-Deti, Ship-Anije, these are original Albanian words and not borrowed.

But the most important thing that I think is that he is dismissing is, there was never an "Epirotan Greek" and "Macedonian Greek" that have actually migrated towards Albanian highlands, in fact is the opposite.....

[ChocolateFace]

His theory is flawed, because he actually doesn't even know where to place Albanians. He seems to think that we neither inhabited Kosova or Albanian itself, but at the same time we have the most Greek imprint.:D He also argues that Albanian does not have Greek loan words, which he is wrong, we do have quite some Doric Greek words and in Gegh more then Tosk. Also, Albanian does not lack sea fearing words as he seem to think, the most basic words for example are original. Like for example Sea-Deti, Ship-Anije, these are original Albanian words and not borrowed.

But the most important thing that I think is that he is dismissing is, there was never an "Epirotan Greek" and "Macedonian Greek" that have actually migrated towards Albanian highlands, in fact is the opposite.....

Good points, it's also been said that the highlands have been filled to maximum capacity for a few thousand years. The only major influx into the highlands were from Albanian speaking brethren from Bosnia who haven't been slavicized yet.

[Skerdilaid]

Good points, it's also been said that the highlands have been filled to maximum capacity for a few thousand years. The only influx into the highlands were from Albanian speaking brethren from Bosnia who haven't been slavicized yet.

Agreed, but they were more Northern then what he would like to believe. Also, the Greek colonies played a very small role in Albania proper itself, and even Greek accounts mention Illyrians inhabiting the periphery of the cities. So the only explanation to our genetics is actually the Indo-Europeanized Pelasgians and their likes that inhabited Balkans.

[ChocolateFace]

Agreed, but they were more Northern then what he would like to believe. Also, the Greek colonies played a very small role in Albania proper itself, and even Greek accounts mention Illyrians inhabiting the periphery of the cities. So the only explanation to our genetics is actually the Indo-Europeanized Pelasgians and their likes that inhabited Balkans.

What sucks is that Albanians never wrote much of their own history. Greeks stole a lot from us. For example marathon comes from mere tan(take it all/go the distance). Even many of their tales and stories were taken from us. Modern Greeks can't even understand the language of the ancient Greeks or explanations of the words.

[armenianbodyhair]

j2 for sure. LOL.

[mourtsouflos]

For example marathon comes from mere tan(take it all/go the distance).

lol

"Marathon's name (Μαραθών) comes from the herb fennel, called marathon (μάραθον) or marathos (μάραθος) in Greek, so Marathon literally means "a place full of fennels."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marathon,_Greece

And, yes, we understand the word, we still use it.

[Drawing-slim]

In northern Albania not a single soul lived there prior 2000-2500 years.
So I can understand his confusion not knowing where to place Albanians.
We know that in mountains of ghegnia aka northern Albania Illyrians magi rated there from all directions of Balkans and left their green rich lands to settle and find safely in the isolated Rocky Mountain peaks of ghegnia.
So whatever percentage of Paternal DNA is found in northern Albanian it is that of Illyrians no doubt about it.
Illyrians came from Dalmatia and the Greek parts also Dardania/Kosovo and settled there.
Even Skenderbeg states in a letter to a French king that he as a shepherd/albo (a derogatory term called the French king) skenderbeg replies that we are descendants of the Epirus. Somthing along these lines and the actual letter is posted in this forum somewhere while back.

So northern Albanians for sure didn't occupy the land they're currently living in prior 2000 years, but this is the concrete proof they're the true Illyrians. Because no conquerer is going to settle in the shitiest rocky poor soil piece of land, only Illyrians trying to survive and preserve themselves would do that. End of story.

This also explains why only in northern mountains of Albania we find the most übermensch phenotypes in the Balkans and the while Europe perhaps. Not in Greece, not in Serbia, not in Bosnia of anywhere else but in this particular part of Balkans.

[Kastrioti1443]

In northern Albania not a single soul lived there prior 2000-2500 years.
So I can understand his confusion not knowing where to place Albanians.
We know that in mountains of ghegnia aka northern Albania Illyrians magi rated there from all directions of Balkans and left their green rich lands to settle and find safely in the isolated Rocky Mountain peaks of ghegnia.
So whatever percentage of Paternal DNA is found in northern Albanian it is that of Illyrians no doubt about it.
Illyrians came from Dalmatia and the Greek parts also Dardania/Kosovo and settled there.
Even Skenderbeg states in a letter to a French king that he as a shepherd/albo (a derogatory term called the French king) skenderbeg replies that we are descendants of the Epirus. Somthing along these lines and the actual letter is posted in this forum somewhere while back.

So northern Albanians for sure didn't occupy the land they're currently living in prior 2000 years, but this is the concrete proof they're the true Illyrians. Because no conquerer is going to settle in the shitiest rocky poor soil piece of land, only Illyrians trying to survive and preserve themselves would do that. End of story.

This also explains why only in northern mountains of Albania we find the most übermensch phenotypes in the Balkans and the while Europe perhaps. Not in Greece, not in Serbia, not in Bosnia of anywhere else but in this particular part of Balkans.


Albanian Highlanders have always lived in the highlands, never in plains, besides Dardanians. Anyway I will make soon a thread with more than 500 photos about the phenotypes of Albanian Highlanders of Northern Albania, Western Kosovo Highlands and Southern Montenegro ( which are all Northern Albania technically).

[Kastrioti1443]

Franico, about that study of Arberesh, I really have a lot of doubts, since Arbershe are mixed with south Italians and a lot of Arberesh were from cities anyway.

[1stLightHorse]

Albanian Highlanders have always lived in the highlands, never in plains, besides Dardanians. Anyway I will make soon a thread with more than 500 photos about the phenotypes of Albanian Highlanders of Northern Albania, Western Kosovo Highlands and Southern Montenegro ( which are all Northern Albania technically).

Kastrioti, what is your opinion about the y-dna of Illyrians?

[Kastrioti1443]

Kastrioti, what is your opinion about the y-dna of Illyrians?

It has been proved already what I2a2 in Yugoslavs is, and that originates from Ukraine , where the biggest diversity is. However Illyrians stretched a lot, from Southern Albania to Austria and they assimilated different people, but considering that the epicenter of Illyrian tribes was what is Today Northern Albania, Kosovo, Montenegro, Southwest Serbia, Hercegovina, probably Ev-13 was the main Y-DNA.

[Drawing-slim]

Albanian Highlanders have always lived in the highlands, never in plains, besides Dardanians. Anyway I will make soon a thread with more than 500 photos about the phenotypes of Albanian Highlanders of Northern Albania, Western Kosovo Highlands and Southern Montenegro ( which are all Northern Albania technically).

No, not a single soul has lived in those mountains prior 2000-2500 years. And Illyrians have been in the Balkans way longer than that. This is why amongst these gheg highlanders we find the most übermensch phenotypes in the Balkans. Because they are the pure Illyrians that managed, sacrificed and preserved themselves.

[cally]

For some reason I think they had more Central European R1b-U152
Basically R1b, J2, E-V13, I1
im not sure about the origins of I2a2b

[Tacitus]

Franico, about that study of Arberesh, I really have a lot of doubts, since Arbershe are mixed with south Italians and a lot of Arberesh were from cities anyway.

Well since the study focused on y-dna, they only tested those with Albanian-derived surnames who still lived in the isolated Arbereshe villages in order to find people with as little admixture as possible.

[Stefan_Dusan]

First you have to keep in mind that Dienekes seems to believe Albanians are from central or southern Serbia which goes against the most conclusions by some of the most astute scholars about Albanians. Also keep in mind that northern Albania though out history has been among the if not the most isolated places in Europe whose inhabitants were just coming out of the Iron Age when Coon studied them. I believe its the unusual isolation of the Albanian (originally best represented by the Ghegs) that accounts for the many anomalies concerning the Albanians and their origins which I also believe would extend to their genetics.

My own personal opinion is that Albanians survived just north of Kruja, in the mat river valley. Skerdilaid posted some linguistic theories once that pointed to the mat river valley having no slavic toponyms wheres if you go north of this, there are plenty of slavic toponyms such as around Shkodra. I also saw some evidence that the name of Shkorda does not follow linguistic evolutionary standards in Albanian language if it was Albanians that constantly 'knew about it and used it in their language.' After all it was part of the realm of Zeta and was defended by the Crnojevici and the Venetians from the Ottomans. The League of Lezha was after all primarily in what is now the Mat river valley.

I have seen linguistic theories that place proto-Albanians either in Kosovo or Nish area of Serbia. This is mainly tied to the closesness of the Albanian language to Romanian. However I rather believe that proto-Albanians inhabited a wide swath of the Balkans, and once they started to romanize became proto-Romanians. The weakest Romanization happened in the mat river valley, because besides it being mountainous it's all close to the ambiguity of the Greek/Roman spheres of influence and probably a no man's land for both.

That being said, we can't ignore historical records. And the first record of you is Epirus. Not to mention, genetically, many Albanians tend to be indistinguishable from Greeks on North/South markers.

[Skerdilaid]

What sucks is that Albanians never wrote much of their own history. Greeks stole a lot from us. For example marathon comes from mere tan(take it all/go the distance). Even many of their tales and stories were taken from us. Modern Greeks can't even understand the language of the ancient Greeks or explanations of the words.

Yes in a way it sucks, but still considering and adding all variables you come to a reasonable conclusion, I think, that if you don't have an agenda and dismiss data. I would not say they stole a lot, sure they did swallow lots of cultures and were influenced themselves, and also considering that both Albanian and Greek languages are Indo-European of the same branch, so there is a higher possibility of having more cognates with them then with others.

As for the stories or legends, this in away is sort of connected with genetics too, I think. We know for certain that Greece has in fact been invaded in antiquity in several occasions by more then few cultures, and this invasions came exactly from North and descended down. Therefore, Central Balkans would have been definitely affected by such invasions culturally and genetically, so this is where it becomes futile claiming that actually Greeks influenced the North genetically, because in most cases similar people have inhabited the peninsula for millennia.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Some points here I sae Dienekes bring up.

Arbereshe have less EV-13 then surrounding Calabrese villages. He attributes the EV-13 in Calabrese is settlement by Dorian Greeks or whatever. If you look at Calabrese music, it sounds very Greek to me so this is possible. What is weird though is why Arbereshe have less than the Calabrese when Albanians have more. It can't be from mixing with Calabrese, in fact mixing with Calabrese would increase the presence of EV-13 inside them.

The other anomaly that Franico pointed out is R1a in the Arbereshe. R1a is absent in Calabrese so mixing with them is not an explanation of how Arbereshe got this haplogroup. The level of R1a in the Arbereshe would put them right after Hungarians, Slovenes, and Croats.

Lastly, Dienekes places the age of EV-13 in Gheg Albanians dating back to 200-300 AD. This is based on Dienekes own 'mutation rate' which he says is based on the 'germ rate' however his rate is supposedly 'slower' than other models which makes EV-13 older, including in the age of Albanians.

Could EV-13 be the marker of the Vlahs? On my 23andMe, there is one Romanian from the Moldovan border who is EV-13. Quite a spread of this haplogroup.

[Tacitus]

Some points here I sae Dienekes bring up.

Arbereshe have less EV-13 then surrounding Calabrese villages. He attributes the EV-13 in Calabrese is settlement by Dorian Greeks or whatever. If you look at Calabrese music, it sounds very Greek to me so this is possible. What is weird though is why Arbereshe have less than the Calabrese when Albanians have more. It can't be from mixing with Calabrese, in fact mixing with Calabrese would increase the presence of EV-13 inside them.

The other anomaly that Franico pointed out is R1a in the Arbereshe. R1a is absent in Calabrese so mixing with them is not an explanation of how Arbereshe got this haplogroup. The level of R1a in the Arbereshe would put them right after Hungarians, Slovenes, and Croats.

Lastly, Dienekes places the age of EV-13 in Gheg Albanians dating back to 200-300 AD. This is based on Dienekes own 'mutation rate' which he says is based on the 'germ rate' however his rate is supposedly 'slower' than other models which makes EV-13 older, including in the age of Albanians.

Could EV-13 be the marker of the Vlahs? On my 23andMe, there is one Romanian from the Moldovan border who is EV-13. Quite a spread of this haplogroup.

The Arbereshe actually have a higher rate of E-V13 than the surrounding population according to the study (28% to 23%). Dienekes makes a point of it in his conclusion.

[Skerdilaid]

You can't label genetics to a certain ethnic group, that's pseudo science at its best.


Regarding Arbreshe, the ones that have preserved their culture in Italy have actually emigrated there from Peloponnesus, where according to Dienekes is the place where the most diversity is found.

[safinator]

There's something wrong with the R1a right there, i think 18% is both R1a and R1b together included.

Most of Arbereshe are Tosk where R1a and I is quite a bit higher than in the north, especially I2a1b.

[Stefan_Dusan]

You can't label genetics to a certain ethnic group, that's pseudo science at its best.

Well the origin of these haplogroups are usually before any of these ethnic groups. However, the spread of much of these haplogroups can be attributed to certain ethnic groups. I'm just asking the question, what male haplogroups did the Illyrians have in antiquity? That is during the time of the ancient Greeks and even before.



Regarding Arbreshe, the ones that have preserved their culture in Italy have actually emigrated there from Peloponnesus, where according to Dienekes is the place where the most diversity is found.

Yes, but that diversity is found among the Greeks of the Peloponnese. At least if you were to ask Dienekes himself he'd claim Arbenesh are 'relatively recent immigrants' and carry newer versions of EV-13. In other words, according to him, Greeks brought it to the Albanians who then brought it back it to the Peloponnese during some other migration.

[Stefan_Dusan]

The Arbereshe actually have a higher rate of E-V13 than the surrounding population according to the study (28% to 16%). Dienekes makes a point of it in his conclusion.

This is what I read from him, same link Kuqezi posted:


An additional piece of evidence is Y-chromosome distribution in Calabria, a Southern Italian region with well-known Greek connections. According to Semino et al. (2004) [Am. J. Hum. Genet. 74:1023–1034, 2004], the Calabrian sample has an E-M78 frequency of 16.3%, whereas "Calabria 2" representing the "Albanian community of the Cosenza province" has only 5.9%. This is consistent with the idea that E-V13 in modern Albanians is to a great degree due to Greek founders (Epirotes or ancient colonists).

[Kastrioti1443]

My own personal opinion is that Albanians survived just north of Kruja, in the mat river valley. Skerdilaid posted some linguistic theories once that pointed to the mat river valley having no slavic toponyms wheres if you go north of this, there are plenty of slavic toponyms such as around Shkodra. I also saw some evidence that the name of Shkorda does not follow linguistic evolutionary standards in Albanian language if it was Albanians that constantly 'knew about it and used it in their language.' After all it was part of the realm of Zeta and was defended by the Crnojevici and the Venetians from the Ottomans. The League of Lezha was after all primarily in what is now the Mat river valley.

I have seen linguistic theories that place proto-Albanians either in Kosovo or Nish area of Serbia. This is mainly tied to the closesness of the Albanian language to Romanian. However I rather believe that proto-Albanians inhabited a wide swath of the Balkans, and once they started to romanize became proto-Romanians. The weakest Romanization happened in the mat river valley, because besides it being mountainous it's all close to the ambiguity of the Greek/Roman spheres of influence and probably a no man's land for both.

That being said, we can't ignore historical records. And the first record of you is Epirus. Not to mention, genetically, many Albanians tend to be indistinguishable from Greeks on North/South markers.

All over '' North Albania'' ( Southern Montenegro, Western Kosovo and Northwestern FYROM are North Albania also) is predominately very albanian in toponyms and names. The Mirdita, Koman, Fierz, Dukagjin and Mat regions are almost 100% albanian in everything, even the far north is almost 100% albanian in names, probably 2-3 villages might have slavic names.

The albanian highlands of Western Kosovo, South Montenegro and NorthWestern FYROM have today a lot of slavic toponyms because of well known reasons, a lot of names were changed after the Serbian invasion of 1913, it was a policy of serbian and yugoslav states.

The Albanian League of Lezh my friend stretched from Podgorica to all Western Kosovo going till what is know today as Channel of Corinth. During Ottoman attacks and invasions were more than 150,000 soldiers were used, the League was compressed only through out Dukagjin-Kruja Region, because of military tactics, but politically and ethnically the League was from Prishtina to Channel of Corinth ( The Albanian Lord, Gjin Bue Shpata increased his land till Peloponesus).

What is known today as Northwestern Albania and southern montenegro were always ruled by 2 families the Dukagjinas and Zaharias, both 300% Albanian. Those articles and maps with colors of Zeta in Wikipedia are a recent invention, but whjat is also very important to state si that we do not know what Cernojvic were, some people say that their true name was Gjurshaj, and maybe of them being Albanian or maybe half Albanian, they were part of the Albanian League of Lezh.

[cally]

Dienekes is extremely biased.
I don't take him seriously. It's a shame a man with such talent and intellect has to stoop so low.

[Stefan_Dusan]

All over '' North Albania'' ( Southern Montenegro, Western Kosovo and Northwestern FYROM are North Albania also) is predominately very albanian in toponyms and names.


The further development of the name has been the object of some discussion among linguists in the context of the debate over the linguistic provenance of Albanians and the Albanian language. While Cabej[6] and Demiraj[7] treat the development from Skodra to modern Shkodra as evidence of regular development within Albanian, Matzinger[2] argues that it fails to display certain known phonological changes that would have to have happened if the name had been continually in use in (proto-)Albanian since pre-Roman times.

I'm stating this is my opinion, not that it's fact. But there are plenty of Slavic toponyms, the mountain Velechik (from Veles, a slavic god), the village Vuksanaj (from the slavic Vuksan, "just wolf") etc. All of these, in slavic expression, are in the "vukojebina" (where the wolves fuck-literally in the middle of nowhere).


What is known today as Northwestern Albania and southern montenegro were always ruled by 2 families the Dukagjinas and Zaharias, both 300% Albanian. Those articles and maps with colors of Zeta in Wikipedia are a recent invention, but whjat is also very important to state si that we do not know what Cernojvic were, some people say that their true name was Gjurshaj, and maybe of them being Albanian or maybe half Albanian, they were part of the Albanian League of Lezh.

There is nothing Albanian about the Crnojevici. They are descendants of the Serbian ruling family. They founded the League of Lezha since Scanderbeg was their buffer between them and the Turks which is their interest (encouraging, funding, and even participating). As you keep insisting for Serbs, there was no Albanian ethnicity back in 1400s xD

[Stefan_Dusan]

Dienekes is extremely biased.
I don't take him seriously. It's a shame a man with such talent and intellect has to stoop so low.

We all bring our biases to the table. Me as a Serb. You as an Albanian. Dienekes as a Greek. However Dienekes presents research and arguments you can't dismiss with your hand 'that he is biased.'

[Kastrioti1443]

I'm stating this is my opinion, not that it's fact. But there are plenty of Slavic toponyms, the mountain Velechik (from Veles, a slavic god), the village Vuksanaj (from the slavic Vuksan, "just wolf") etc. All of these, in slavic expression, are in the "vukojebina" (where the wolves fuck-literally in the middle of nowhere).



There is nothing Albanian about the Crnojevici. They are descendants of the Serbian ruling family. They founded the League of Lezha since Scanderbeg was their buffer between them and the Turks which is their interest (encouraging, funding, and even participating). As you keep insisting for Serbs, there was no Albanian ethnicity back in 1400s xD

Velecik yes, but just 1 mountain, and village with name Vuksanaj does not exist. As i have said before in this forum, a lot of new facts are being discovered and a lot of things about history are going to change, including here the '' Cernojvic''.

In general the slavic toponyms found among albanians are a legacy of 2 bulgarian empires.

[cally]

We all bring our biases to the table. Me as a Serb. You as an Albanian. Dienekes as a Greek. However Dienekes presents research and arguments you can't dismiss with your hand 'that he is biased.'
I'm far from biased. It's very pathetic and unscientific
I don't understand why Serbs will be biased with Albanian genetics? What are they trying to do? They should give up. Albanians too as they are Balkan people genetically. There is nothing more to argue or prove.
He uses his expertise to create propaganda. He jumps to conclusions without taking other factors into consideration. I have read his entire blog. He seems to play with statistics and alter his findings to his favour (when it comes to Albanians)

[Stefan_Dusan]

Velecik yes, but just 1 mountain, and village with name Vuksanaj does not exist. As i have said before in this forum, a lot of new facts are being discovered and a lot of things about history are going to change, including here the '' Cernojvic''.

In general the slavic toponyms found among albanians are a legacy of 2 bulgarian empires.

I showed you a map of Vuksanaj I will show you again: http://www.indexmundi.com/z/?lat=42.2830556&lon=19.8069444&t=p&r=4000&p=vuksanaj&cc=al&c=albania

And Vuksan is not a Bulgarian. You will never find a Bulgarian with this name but plenty of Serbs xD

[Stefan_Dusan]

I'm far from biased. It's very pathetic and unscientific
He uses his expertise to create propaganda. He jumps to conclusions without taking other factors into consideration. I have read his entire blog. He seems to play with statistics and alter his findings to his favour (when it comes to Albanians)

Ok then you must have explanation for his arguments based on E-V13 including the age of it, how markers suggest it's older by ~1000 years in Greeks than Albanians and is also more diverse in Greece in Albania.

[Tacitus]

This is what I read from him, same link Kuqezi posted:

From the Boattini study:


E1b1b1a (M78) is the most common haplogroup in the Arbereshe. Recent research (Cruciani et al. 2006; 2007; Battaglia et al. 2009; Di Gaetano et al. 2009) has demonstrated that E1b1b1 has great relevance for Balkan genetic history, particularly its E1b1b1a2-V13 sub-clade. Indeed, the Arbereshe low STR variance (Table III) and their haplotypes being located towards the centre of the network reveal that this population shares lineages almost exclusively of recent Balkan provenance.

[Stefan_Dusan]

From the Boattini study:

From Battaglia, sister clades, and V13 in Greeks:

Greeks:

E1b1b1a2 -> 16.3%
E1b1b1c -> 2.2%
E1b1b1a5 -> 2.2%
E1b1b1a3 -> 1.1%

Total: 21.8%

Macedonian Greeks

E1b1b1a2 -> 19.3%
E1b1b1c -> 1.8%
E1b1b1a3 -> 1.8%

Total: 22.9%

Albanians:

E1b1b1a2 -> 23.6%
E1b1b1a* -> 1.8%

Total: 25.4%

Macedonian Albanians

E1b1b1a2 -> 34.4%
E1b1b1c -> 3.1%
E1b1b1a* -> 1.6%

Total: 39.1%

Bosnian Serbs

E1b1b1a2 -> 19.8%
E*1b1b1 -> 2.5%

Total: 22.3%

Bosnians

E1b1b1a2 -> 13.1%

Total: 13.1%

Bosnian Croats

E1b1b1a2 -> 8.9%

Total: 8.9%

Croats:

E1b1b1a2 -> 6.7%
E1b1b1a3 -> 1.1%
E1b1b1c -> 1.1%

Total: 8.9%

Osijek Croats

E1b1b1a2 -> 10.3%

Total: 10.3%

Slovenes:

E1b1b1a2 -> 2.7%

Total: 2.7%

NorthEast Italians:

E1b1b1a2 -> 1.5%
E1a -> 1.5%
E1b1b1c -> 1.5%

Total: 4.5%

Hungarians:

E1b1b1a2 -> 7.5%
E1b1b1c -> 1.9%

Total: 9.4%

Poles:

E1b1b1a2 -> 4%

Total: 4%

Ukrainians:

E1b1b1a2 -> 7.6%
E1b1b1c -> 1.1%

Total: 8.7%

Georgians:

E1b1b1a2 -> 1.5%
E1b1b1c -> 1.5%

Total: 3%

Balkarians:

E1b1b1a1 -> 2.6%

Study here: http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/fig_tab/ejhg2008249f2.html#figure-title

[Stefan_Dusan]

So center of diversity is, by ranking:

Tier 1 (4 sister clades):

1: Greece

Tier 2 (3 sister clades):

2: Macedonian Albanians
3: Macedonian Greeks
4: Croatians
5: North-East Italians

Tier 3 (2 sister clades):

6): Albanians
7): Bosnian-Serbs
8): Ukrainians
9): Hungarians
10): Georgians

Tier 4 (1 sister clade):

11): Bosnian Muslims
12): Osijek-Croats
13): Bosnian-Croats
14): Poles
15): Slovenians
16): Balkarians

[Stefan_Dusan]

So there is diversity it's just very rare, suggesting EV-13 has been in Europe more recently than J, I, R1b etc

But now there is diversity and percentages, what do people think, the spread of E-V13 more consistent with Illyrian people or maritime Greeks?

[Stefan_Dusan]

It would be interesting to see Montenegrins, Serbians (from Serbia), Serbians (from Croatia), Bulgarians, and Romanians on the study to be able to make clearer picture.

[Tacitus]

It would be interesting to see Montenegrins, Serbians (from Serbia), Serbians (from Croatia), Bulgarians, and Romanians on the study to be able to make clearer picture.

Again, from Boattini (via Bosch et al. (2007), Marjanovic et al. (2007), Klaric et al. (2005), Lauc et al. (2005), Peric et al. (2005)):

Rate of E-V13:

Albania (Tirana) 23%

Macedonia (Skopje) 21%

Romania (Constanta) 10%

Romania (Ploiesti) 14%

Bosnian Serbs 20%

[Stefan_Dusan]

Again, from Boattini (via Bosch et al. (2007), Marjanovic et al. (2007), Klaric et al. (2005), Lauc et al. (2005), Peric et al. (2005)):

Rate of E-V13:

Albania (Tirana) 23%

Macedonia (Skopje) 21%

Romania (Constanta) 10%

Romania (Ploiesti) 14%

Bosnian Serbs 20%

I mean in that study where each clade is listed. I'm interested in diversity, because this can be "rough" indicator of how long it resided in one spot. But the above are still interesting.

[Kastrioti1443]

I showed you a map of Vuksanaj I will show you again: http://www.indexmundi.com/z/?lat=42.2830556&lon=19.8069444&t=p&r=4000&p=vuksanaj&cc=al&c=albania

And Vuksan is not a Bulgarian. You will never find a Bulgarian with this name but plenty of Serbs xD

Dude, do not teach me the villages of Albania, there is no albanian village with name Vuksan.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Dude, do not teach me the villages of Albania, there is no albanian village with name Vuksan.

Tell that to people who make maps xD

[Tacitus]

I mean in that study where each clade is listed. I'm interested in diversity, because this can be "rough" indicator of how long it resided in one spot. But the above are still interesting.

The studies I put in parentheses could provide more details but I'm too lazy to type out all the titles. If you download to Boattini study he lists the titles in his references.

[Kastrioti1443]

All these studies are meaningless, especially conducted in Tirana, that is a very mixed city and the people could have been from every background. Albanians have in average 35 % Rv-13 reaching it's peak among Albanian Highlanders in about 42-45%.

[Black Wolf]

j2 for sure. LOL.

?

[Tacitus]

All these studies are meaningless, especially conducted in Tirana, that is a very mixed city and the people could have been from every background. Albanians have in average 35 % Rv-13 reaching it's peak among Albanian Highlanders in about 42-45%.

I figured you would bring that up, as I thought the same thing too.

[Stefan_Dusan]

I figured you would bring that up, as I thought the same thing too.

All cities are mixed. You would have to test village by village which is obviously (budgetary) out of the scope of these studies. However if you compare city results, you get accurate comparisons, imo

[Kastrioti1443]

I figured you would bring that up, as I thought the same thing too.

I have been born and raised in this city and it has become more and more mixed with the passing of time.... Only 70% of Tirana is ethnic albanian and the heavy majority of albanians are Tosks, probably less than 8% of the population are Highlanders.

[kuqezi]

Dude, do not teach me the villages of Albania, there is no albanian village with name Vuksan.

There is obviously a village with that name there (Vuksanaj), what does it matter to you? Those kind of personal names became popular when the Serbs were strong in the north just like how many Catholic highlanders had Turkish names in their line doesn't mean anything ethnically. You don't think Mehmet Shpendi was a Turk do you?

http://www.albanianhistory.net/en/texts1000-1799/AH1614.html

^Look at the names of the commanders of the Albanian forces in 1614.

[kuqezi]

Stefan, I posted Dienekes because he sniffs out a lot of information thats relevant here. His conclusions are notoriously biased though and in the case of E-V13 and Albanians its bullcrap. Read the debate he has in the comments with that guy Maju where he gets destroyed. The Greeks could not spread it to the inland Balkan population for many reasons. Kastrioti is right in his points and like Ujku said the last major migration into the refuge area of Malsi besides those from Bosnia like Hoti and Shkreli was in the remote ancient times, which was Coon's conclusion.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Stefan, I posted Dienekes because he sniffs out a lot of information thats relevant here. His conclusions are notoriously biased though and in the case of E-V13 and Albanians its bullcrap. Read the debate he has in the comments with that guy Maju where he gets destroyed. The Greeks could not spread it to the inland Balkan population for many reasons. Kastrioti is right in his points and like Ujku said the last major migration into the refuge area of Malsi besides those from Bosnia like Hoti and Shkreli was in the remote ancient times, which was Coon's conclusion.

I did read the debate between him and Maju (that's where I got the post) but I thought opposite, Maju didn't have very much valid points, he was trying to nitpick at the theory but his own is far more error ridden.

If you look at EV-13 it has a mini peak around the black sea region in Ukraine. This is also very constant with a maritime Greek expansion versus an Illyrian one. If we believe an Illyrian expansion we would have to believe that the Illyrians brought E-V13 to Greece where somehow it became more diverse and older there.

[cally]

What about Thracian? Isn't the presence of ev13 in Britain the result of Illyrian/ Thracian soldiers?

[Stefan_Dusan]

What about Thracian? Isn't the presence of ev13 in Britain the result of Illyrian/ Thracian soldiers?

I'm not sure where the core of Thracian land, someone needs to show me a map. But if it was in modern day Bulgaria, then it doesn't make sense since the diversity is primarily in Greece.

Roman soldiers brought it to Great Britain and who knows what exactly those Roman soldiers were.

[cally]

I'm not sure where the core of Thracian land, someone needs to show me a map. But if it was in modern day Bulgaria, then it doesn't make sense since the diversity is primarily in Greece.

Roman soldiers brought it to Great Britain and who knows what exactly those Roman soldiers were.
I read somewhere that Romans recruited soldiers from Illyria and Thrace and apparently that's the source of ev13 in Britain

[Stefan_Dusan]

Another point E-V13 is low in Slovenia (northwest corner of old Illyria) but much higher in Hungary and even Poland, neither of which were part of Illyria.

If E-V13 expended from the south, it would be logical it would follow river valleys. Once in southern Serbia this leads directly to Hungary (and then Poland) uninterrupted by any mountains. However to get to Slovenia it would have to go through the western dinaric mountain chain, and so we should expect it in smaller amounts. And we do.

If this was an Illyrian marker from the get go, and Slovenia was settled by Illyrians as old maps suggest, we would expect the opposite (E-V13 higher in Slovenia than Poland).

[kuqezi]

I did read the debate between him and Mujo (that's where I got the post) but I thought opposite, Mujo didn't have very much valid points, he was trying to nitpick at the theory but his own is far more error ridden.

If you look at EV-13 it has a mini peak around the black sea region in Ukraine. This is also very constant with a maritime Greek expansion versus an Illyrian one. If we believe an Illyrian expansion we would have to believe that the Illyrians brought E-V13 to Greece where somehow it became more diverse and older there.

For E-V13 to be that wide spread among Albanians and Yugoslavs can't be explained by ancient Greek colonization. It has to have involved land movement of populations. Thats not to say that Greeks could not indeed have brought it to the Ukraine or Italy. In Albanians and Serbs you would expect the high paternal lineage to at least be somewhat reflected phenotypically but its not. There have got to be other explanations. This is best left to western experts if you ask me. And I would wage anything that if we could sample an ancient Illyrian Ardiaei tribesman from Montenegro that he'd be E-V13 or parent marker of it.

[Stefan_Dusan]

I read somewhere that Romans recruited soldiers from Illyria and Thrace and apparently that's the source of ev13 in Britain

Roman soldiers recruited soldiers from everywhere. I'm sure the person who floated that theory thought so because E-V13 is higher in the Balkans than anywhere else in Europe and was trying to connect dots.

[Stefan_Dusan]

For E-V13 to be that wide spread among Albanians and Yugoslavs can't be explained by ancient Greek colonization. It has to have involved land movement of populations.

After Greece, Macedonia becomes the focal point of diversity. From Greece -> Macedonia is no stretch and in this case not spread by sea.

Another oddball is Croatian coast which seems to be a focal point of diversity (old E-V13) but not in high amounts (replaced by other haplogroups) however Croats away from the coast (Bosnia, Slavonia) lose this diversity almost immediately signifying a much more recent expansion of E-V13 there.

So it seems that other than Macedonia and river valleys leading to Poland, E-V13 spread from coastal areas inland. But in the Macedonia case, it points to an origin from Greece.

And has anyone detected a parent marker of E-V13 in the Balkans yet? All the parent markers seem to be in northeast Africa or middle east.

[kuqezi]

After Greece, Macedonia becomes the focal point of diversity. From Greece -> Macedonia is no stretch and in this case not spread by sea.

Another oddball is Croatian coast which seems to be a focal point of diversity (old E-V13) but not in high amounts (replaced by other haplogroups) however Croats away from the coast (Bosnia, Slavonia) lose this diversity almost immediately signifying a much more recent expansion of E-V13 there.

So it seems that other than Macedonia and river valleys leading to Poland, E-V13 spread from coastal areas inland. But in the Macedonia case, it points to an origin from Greece.

And has anyone detected a parent marker of E-V13 in the Balkans yet? All the parent markers seem to be in northeast Africa or middle east.

Don't forget the Dorian invasion of Greece which was from the north and the Peleponese became fully Dorian. And hinterland Illyrians and later Albainans lived separate from coastal colonies and even Shkodra when it was Latin in the middle ages. We were a world apart and isolated to the max, theres no way northern Ghegs are largely paternally derived from ancient Greeks its ridiculous on all levels. These genetic theories are extremely flimsy not to mention being put forth by armchair historians/propagandists like Dienekes.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Don't forget the Dorian invasion of Greece which was from the north and the Peleponese became fully Dorian. And hinterland Illyrians and later Albainans lived separate from coastal colonies and even Shkodra when it was Latin in the middle ages. We were a world apart and isolated to the max, theres no way northern Ghegs are largely paternally derived from ancient Greeks its ridiculous on all levels. These genetic theories are extremely flimsy not to mention being put forth by armchair historians/propagandists like Dienekes.

Not at all, who knows how long you were in the mountains, but I doubt very long. You have to explain to me why Ghegs have 'newer' versions of E-V13 and less diverse than Greeks, if it was Ghegs (Illyrians<->Albanians) who would give it to the Greeks.

Anyways, here is a map of the ethnogensis of the Illyrians, notice from where they come (not from Greece or the south):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/IllyrianethnogenesisS.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians

[Stefan_Dusan]

Anyways your arguments for why E-V13 has to be Illyrian (i.e because Albanians in the mountains and Kosovo have it in high concentrations, and believe to be descended from Illyrians) is the same reason some Bosniak and Croats argued I2a2b was Illyrian (i.e because Herzegovina Croats and Bosnians have it in high concentrations and some of them believe to be descended from the Illyrians). But in both cases the diversity for I2a2b and E-V13 is elsewhere and so points to a more recent migration.

[kuqezi]

Not at all, who knows how long you were in the mountains, but I doubt very long. You have to explain to me why Ghegs have 'newer' versions of E-V13 and less diverse than Greeks, if it was Ghegs (Illyrians<->Albanians) who would give it to the Greeks.

Anyways, here is a map of the ethnogensis of the Illyrians, notice from where they come (not from Greece or the south):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fb/IllyrianethnogenesisS.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians

Your dealing with something extremely hard to bring to light. What we can say though with most certainty is that markers carried by the Gheg Albanian highlanders today are derived from the Illyrians be they what they may. You would need a lot of resources and have to undertake a Coon-like expedition to the mountains to take genetic samples and accompanying each one corresponding clan histories and cross checkings to even begin to produce definitive theories. The Ghegs though are an ideal people for such an undertaking I believe for the same reasons they were for an anthropological field study, their isolation and uniqueness.

Ancient Greek loan words should be a lot more than they are in Albanian. In fact northern Albania would have been an ideal place to preserve Hellenism.

[Kastrioti1443]

There are no proofs that Ev-13 is more diverse in Greece and it is proven that Ev-13 it is found mostly in the areas where Arvanites settled , another big proof of whom the Ev-13 belongs to.

Lol Ev-13 is almost the same in slovenia and poland, and do not forget that the illyrian population once in slovenia was totally displaced or killed during many migrations of kelts, germanics and slavs.

Ev-13 in albanian highlanders is around 42-45% in average, it is ridiculous to say that has any connection with ancient hellenic colonization which was done only in 2 cities anyway.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Your dealing with something extremely hard to bring to light. What we can say though with most certainty is that markers carried by the Gheg Albanian highlanders today are derived from the Illyrians be they what they may. You would need a lot of resources and have to undertake a Coon-like expedition to the mountains to take genetic samples and accompanying each one corresponding clan histories and cross checkings to even begin to produce definitive theories. The Ghegs though are an ideal people for such an undertaking I believe for the same reasons they were for an anthropological field study, their isolation and uniqueness.

Ancient Greek loan words should be a lot more than they are in Albanian. In fact northern Albania would have been an ideal place to preserve Hellenism.

In old times, the Greek tribes met the Illyrian tribes around Montenegro:


The term Illyrioi may originally have designated only a single people who came to be widely known to the Greeks due to proximity.[26] This occurred during the Bronze Age, when Greek tribes were neighboring the southernmost Illyrian tribe of that time in the Zeta plain of Montenegro.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians

[Stefan_Dusan]

There are no proofs that Ev-13 is more diverse in Greece

I just showed a study that demonstrated this. Dienekes himself cites study that also demonstrate this.


and it is proven that Ev-13 it is found mostly in the areas where Arvanites settled , another big proof of whom the Ev-13 belongs to.

So if it came from Albania, why is it more diverse in Greece? If Albania is the source, then it has to be the most diverse.


Lol Ev-13 is almost the same in slovenia and poland,

It's almost 2x in Poland.


and do not forget that the illyrian population once in slovenia was totally displaced or killed during many migrations of kelts, germanics and slavs.

But Poland who never had any Illyrians? Why 2x great there over Slovenia who was thoroughly settled and has burial sites?


Ev-13 in albanian highlanders is around 42-45% in average, it is ridiculous to say that has any connection with ancient hellenic colonization which was done only in 2 cities anyway.

Same argument as people use I2a2b, high concentrations. This ignores things like "founder effect" etc

[Black Wolf]

There are no proofs that Ev-13 is more diverse in Greece and it is proven that Ev-13 it is found mostly in the areas where Arvanites settled , another big proof of whom the Ev-13 belongs to.

Lol Ev-13 is almost the same in slovenia and poland, and do not forget that the illyrian population once in slovenia was totally displaced or killed during many migrations of kelts, germanics and slavs.

Ev-13 in albanian highlanders is around 42-45% in average, it is ridiculous to say that has any connection with ancient hellenic colonization which was done only in 2 cities anyway.

Do you know what the approximate J2 percentage among Gheg highlanders is by chance?

[kuqezi]

In old times, the Greek tribes met the Illyrian tribes around Montenegro:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians

That is totally false. Illyrians where even south of the Shkumbini river. The Greekness of even the Epirotes is also in question. I don't think you realize how much your stretching here. First of all your would have to refute Coons conclusions about the Ghegs, then the leading linguists to having anything close to something going for your theory. Thats what I hate about all the armchair historians and propagandists like Dienekes they just puts shit out there that flies in the face of real scientific work and it inevitably leaks into debates like here. If he had any balls he'd publish stuff in peer reviewed journals.

[cally]

I just showed a study that demonstrated this. Dienekes himself cites study that also demonstrate this.



So if it came from Albania, why is it more diverse in Greece? If Albania is the source, then it has to be the most diverse.



It's almost 2x in Poland.



But Poland who never had any Illyrians? Why 2x great there over Slovenia who was thoroughly settled and has burial sites?



Same argument as people use I2a2b, high concentrations. This ignores things like "founder effect" etc
I honestly think many polish people have recent Balkan admixture if we look at countries of ancestry of Balkan people Poland always seems to be high up there. It seems very strange why Poland?

[dralos]

poland is special due to the gorals who probably have mixed with illyrians

[cally]

Many Jewish people carry ev13 for some reason I think it traces to Bavaria region of Germany. Do you know if ev13 is more common in southern polish people or northern polish? Maybe they mixed with Central Europeans or Jews who acquired it from Bavarians? (Long shot )

[Black Wolf]

I honestly think many polish people have recent Balkan admixture if we look at countries of ancestry of Balkan people Poland always seems to be high up there. It seems very strange why Poland?

Or possibly the other way around? Many Balkan people have Slavic ancestry.

[Skerdilaid]

My own personal opinion is that Albanians survived just north of Kruja, in the mat river valley. Skerdilaid posted some linguistic theories once that pointed to the mat river valley having no slavic toponyms wheres if you go north of this, there are plenty of slavic toponyms such as around Shkodra. I also saw some evidence that the name of Shkorda does not follow linguistic evolutionary standards in Albanian language if it was Albanians that constantly 'knew about it and used it in their language.' After all it was part of the realm of Zeta and was defended by the Crnojevici and the Venetians from the Ottomans. The League of Lezha was after all primarily in what is now the Mat river valley.

I have seen linguistic theories that place proto-Albanians either in Kosovo or Nish area of Serbia. This is mainly tied to the closesness of the Albanian language to Romanian. However I rather believe that proto-Albanians inhabited a wide swath of the Balkans, and once they started to romanize became proto-Romanians. The weakest Romanization happened in the mat river valley, because besides it being mountainous it's all close to the ambiguity of the Greek/Roman spheres of influence and probably a no man's land for both.

That being said, we can't ignore historical records. And the first record of you is Epirus. Not to mention, genetically, many Albanians tend to be indistinguishable from Greeks on North/South markers.


Most linguists agree that these cities actually follow the phonetic laws of the Albanian language:
Full Hamp's paragraph:

"Çabej points out that villages in the Balkans are generally of
recent date and changeable settlement. Hence for the study of
toponyms city names and rivers are best. If we inspect such names
attested by ancient sources, we find that many follow Albanian
phonological development: Scardus > Shar, with no metathesis, as in
Scardona > Skradin. Scodra > Shkodër; Çabej remarks that sk- > h-
belonged to the pre-Balkan period, and compares (VII Congresso
internazionale 244), for phonology, shkamb < scamnum and kulshedër <
chersydrus. (Rogame is a recent suffixation in -ame of rëge, and
therefore no problem because of the medial -g-.) Barbanna > Buenë is
regular, as shown by Jokl (IF 1932: 50.33 ff.), Slavia (1934-
1935:13.286 ff.), Glotta (1936:25.121 B.). Lissus > Lesh (cf. missa >
meshë, etc.); Çabej points out (VII Congresso intemazionale 245) that
Latin + CC is regular, a statement I can neither affirm nor control
at the moment. Dyrrachium > Durrës, Isamnus > Ishm, Drivastum >
Drisht show, as Krahe claims, the Illyrian initial accent. Shkum(b)î
< Scampinus is regular in the Central Albanian dialect, where
pretonic ë > u and mb > m are expectable (VII Congresso
internazionale 246). Aulwn > Vlorë may perhaps involve a Slavic
intermediary. Thyamis > Çamëria, as Leake saw in 1814, is accepted by
Çabej; however, one might expect s < t (cf. pus 'well' < Lat.
puteus). Arachthos > Arta is supposedly better explained by Albanian
than by Greek; but, apart from the surprising syncope, kt should
yield ft or jt, and not t, from that time level. Ragusium (Ragusa) is
Rush in Bogdan (1685)"

[Stefan_Dusan]

Many Jewish people carry ev13 for some reason I think it traces to Bavaria region of Germany. Do you know if ev13 is more common in southern polish people or northern polish? Maybe they mixed with Central Europeans or Jews who acquired it from Bavarians? (Long shot )

E-V13 didn't originate in the Balkans, it came to Greece from the near east or Africa. So the fact Jews have e-V13 is probably connected to some having paternal ancestry from the near east.

[Stefan_Dusan]

I honestly think many polish people have recent Balkan admixture if we look at countries of ancestry of Balkan people Poland always seems to be high up there. It seems very strange why Poland?

There are a lot of American mutts on 23andMe who list multiple countries. So if you happen to be related to one of them (say you're Greek, and he's half Greek, half Polish) then Poland pops up there. And Poland is one of the major countries of American ancestry.

[Skerdilaid]

E-V13 didn't originate in the Balkans, it came to Greece from the near east or Africa. So the fact Jews have e-V13 is probably connected to some having paternal ancestry from the near east.

I am going to ask you a question, what do you think Greeks of Antiquity were, and what was their mix since you seem to think they differed from other Balkanians?

[Stefan_Dusan]

That is totally false. Illyrians where even south of the Shkumbini river. The Greekness of even the Epirotes is also in question. I don't think you realize how much your stretching here. First of all your would have to refute Coons conclusions about the Ghegs, then the leading linguists to having anything close to something going for your theory. Thats what I hate about all the armchair historians and propagandists like Dienekes they just puts shit out there that flies in the face of real scientific work and it inevitably leaks into debates like here. If he had any balls he'd publish stuff in peer reviewed journals.

Take it up with historians, not me.

Also interesting is how Albanians wear the Plis? This is a Greek hat (if this is indeed where Albanians borrowed it, instead of just a coincidence, a collision of design if you will) when the Illyrians never had this hat.

Anyways the problem with you is you're hell bent on E-V13 being Illyrian. You're not looking at the evidence objectively. Take a step back, and reflect and think to yourself just how the spreading of E-V13 makes sense, given the data on age of variance E-V13, and diversity in various regions. Don't just look to defend your faith.

There is nothing to refute from Coon, he's not a historian or a geneticist, he's an anthropologist. How Ghegs look is not relevant now that we have genetics. How isolated Ghegs were in Coon's day doesn't mean they were that isolated 500 years ago.

And it's very much possible Albanians have a marker from Greeks but still speak a largely Illyrian language. Language =/= Genetics, Latin America is the best example of this fallacy. What's more is we know from linguists Albania has both Greek and Roman influences so they can't be as isolated as you want them to be.

[Stefan_Dusan]

I am going to ask you a question, what do you think Greeks of Antiquity were, and what was their mixed since you seem to think they differed from other Balkanians?

Illyrians differed from Greeks as they originated in two different ways. But no, I don't think Greeks are mixed, just a separate population (Illyrians came from the north and settled into the Balkans, whereas Greeks are a seafaring, Mediterranean population who probably settled in the Balkans from god knows where).

[Stefan_Dusan]

Most linguists agree that these cities actually follow the phonetic laws of the Albanian language:
Full Hamp's paragraph:

If you look at my Wikipedia link you see there are big schools of disagreement on this. Now, how do you know "most" agree, do you have access to some information where linguists were polled on the Shkodra issue?

[Stefan_Dusan]

LOL!

Look at my countries of ancestry:

http://s14.postimg.org/3r4zwn8e9/countries_ancestry.png

[Skerdilaid]

Illyrians differed from Greeks as they originated in two different ways. But no, I don't think Greeks are mixed, just a separate population (Illyrians came from the north and settled into the Balkans, whereas Greeks are a seafaring, Mediterranean population who probably settled in the Balkans from god knows where).

You are wrong my friend. Greek is a Indo-European language just like the Illyrian and Thracian, and all three were intruders on the Balkans, so they all absorbed most of the locals. Greeks in fact encountered more advanced societies once they truly reached South, but still all similar genetic component existed in Balkans prior to their arrival. So I will say this again, you can't attribute genetic components to a single ethnicity or lingua for that matter. E-V13 most likely is as much Greek as it is Illyrian or Thracian for that matter, because they all got it from the same source.

[Stefan_Dusan]

You are wrong my friend. Greek is a Indo-European language just like the Illyrian and Thracian, and all three were intruders on the Balkans, so they all absorbed most of the locals. Greeks in fact encountered more advanced societies once they truly reached South, but all similar genetic component existed in Balkans prior to their arrival. So I will say this again, you can't attribute genetic components to a single ethnicity or lingua for that matter. V-13 most likely is as much Greek as it is Illyrian or Thracian for that matter because the all go it from the same source.

If E-V13 was there so long on the Balkan, why is

1) there no parent? (i.e the founder of E-V13, for example the parent of I2a2b is I2a, of which I2 is the grandfather). The parent of E-V13 is in the near east
2) greatest diversity of E-V13 is in Greece
3) oldest clades in Greece
4) spread of E-V13 is inconsistent with habitation of Illyrians, but is somewhat consistent with Greek maritime exploits
5) little diversity of E-V13 in Europe period

^^ I personally think if the original inhabitants, even before the Illyrians were E-V13 we would see so many more sister clades. E-V13 is even more uniform than I2a2b and that was the reason people proposed I2a2b came to the Balkan via slavic migrations 1500 years ago (and I agree with them btw). So if true, then why is more uniform E-V13 given a pass?

[Skerdilaid]

If you look at my Wikipedia link you see there are big schools of disagreement on this. Now, how do you know "most" agree, do you have access to some information where linguists were polled on the Shkodra issue?

Actually probably all Albanalogists agree, except Georgiev. Dienekes uses him mostly in his arguments too.

[Skerdilaid]

If E-V13 was there so long on the Balkan, why is

1) there no parent? (i.e the founder of E-V13, for example the parent of I2a2b is I2a, of which I2 is the grandfather). The parent of E-V13 is in the near east
2) greatest diversity of E-V13 is in Greece
3) oldest clades in Greece
4) spread of E-V13 is inconsistent with habitation of Illyrians, but is somewhat consistent with Greek maritime exploits
5) little diversity of E-V13 in Europe period

^^ I personally think if the original inhabitants, even before the Illyrians were E-V13 we would see so many more sister clades. E-V13 is even more uniform than I2a2b and that was the reason people proposed I2a2b came to the Balkan via slavic migrations 1500 years ago (and I agree with them btw). So if true, then why is more uniform E-V13 given a pass?
Didn't Solin post a paper regarding E-V13 existing in Europe even as far as 7000 years ago?

[Stefan_Dusan]

Actually probably all Albanalogists agree, except Georgiev. Dienekes uses him mostly in his arguments too.

The guy I posted who disagrees is Matzinger.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Didn't Solin post a paper regarding E-V13 existing in Europe even as far as 7000 years ago?

A find of E-V13 in Spain 7,000 years ago is probably related to the Berbers just across the strait. If we find many Spanish villagers with E-V13 then the picture will change, but currently E-V13 is in small, trace amounts in Spain. The Basque people, considered one of the oldest Europeans, are to a tie, R1b* (some clade of this).

[Skerdilaid]

The guy I posted who disagrees is Matzinger.

Young linguist trying to bring the horse down. Can you show me where does he disagree on Scodra?

[Skerdilaid]

A find of E-V13 in Spain 7,000 years ago is probably related to the Berbers just across the strait. If we find many Spanish villagers with E-V13 then the picture will change, but currently E-V13 is in small, trace amounts in Spain. The Basque people, considered one of the oldest Europeans, are to a tie, R1b* (some clade of this).

But still we are in a lot of guesses and assumptions. According to the paper it was not linked to Berbers, but farmers, and they are the source of E-V13. So since we know the history of that era and now the evidence, we can easily conclude that E-V13 has been in Europe for quite some time and predates all Indo-European languages. You see how lame it is to attribute E-V13 to any Indo-European group today?

[Stefan_Dusan]

Young linguist trying to bring the horse down. Can you show me where does he disagree on Scodra?

I got it from Wikipedia and don't have the book, however if you're interested (since you like this linguist stuff) here is the exact reference to his disagreement, pages and all


Matzinger, Joachim (2009). "Die Albaner als Nachkommen der Illyrer aus der Sicht der historischen Sprachwissenschaft". In Schmitt, Oliver Jens; Frantz, Eva Anne. Albanische Geschichte: Stand und Perspektiven der Forschung. Munich: Oldenbourg. pp. 22–24.

It might be in German though xD

[Stefan_Dusan]

But still we are in a lot of guesses and assumptions. According to the paper it was not linked to Berbers, but farmers, and they are the source of E-V13. So since we know the history of that era and now the evidence, we can easily conclude that E-V13 has been in Europe for quite some time and predates all Indo-European languages. You see how lame it is to attribute E-V13 to any Indo-European group today?

You can't make this conclusion based on one villager. The reason for the paper is the find is so surprising. But since E-V13 is low in Spain, and since this is isolated incident, and since E-V13 parent is in Africa, which Spain happens to be a mini boat ride away in the straight of Gibraltar, to me I still think evidence points to E-V13 being tied to Greek expansions around the Balkans.

[Skerdilaid]

I got it from Wikipedia and don't have the book, however if you're interested (since you like this linguist stuff) here is the exact reference to his disagreement, pages and all



It might be in German though xD
Still he is a minority compare to other linguists that agree...Plus he seems young and quite inexperienced from some of his papers that I have read.

[Skerdilaid]

You can't make this conclusion based on one villager. The reason for the paper is the find is so surprising. But since E-V13 is low in Spain, and since this is isolated incident, and since E-V13 parent is in Africa, which Spain happens to be a mini boat ride away in the straight of Gibraltar, to me I still think evidence points to E-V13 being tied to Greek expansions around the Balkans.

lol ok with all the evidence pointing against it, and since it's the farmers signature (which basically they settled almost in all Europe) how do you explain it, I mean how did the Greeks expand in North Balkans, I want concrete proof here?

[Stefan_Dusan]

Still he is a minority compare to other linguists that agree...Plus he seems young and quite inexperienced from some of his papers that I have read.

It makes sense tbh, if there any Albanians before the Romans in Shkodra, there wouldn't be during Roman occupation. Everyone was Romanized there.

[Skerdilaid]

It makes sense tbh, if there any Albanians before the Romans in Shkodra, there wouldn't be during Roman occupation. Everyone was Romanized there.

Well it's not about the population, but the name of the city that follows the phonetic rules of the Albanian language. Obviously Shkodra got Latinized, or the inhabitants, but just North of it was Tribal land even during the Romans.

[Stefan_Dusan]

lol ok with all the evidence pointing against it, and since it's the farmers signature (which basically they settled almost in all Europe) how do you explain it, I mean how did the Greeks expand in North Balkans, I want concrete proof here?

I explained that Greeks basis was principally Macedonia, and some colonies along the adriatic and black sea. Montenegro bordered the old Greek tribes and was thus half way influenced. Serbia began seeing a spread of people up the river valleys from Macedonia. This is all consistent with the diversity of E-V13, as it starts the most diverse in Greece, becomes less diverse in Macedonia, becomes less diverse in the colonies (along Montenegro, Albania) and even less so as it travels up Serbia to Hungary.

If E-V13 was all over the place, why is Greece home to the oldest and most diverse clades of it?

[Skerdilaid]

I explained that Greeks basis was principally Macedonia, and some colonies along the adriatic and black sea. Montenegro bordered the old Greek tribes and was thus half way influenced. Serbia began seeing a spread of people up the river valleys from Macedonia. This is all consistent with the diversity of E-V13, as it starts the most diverse in Greece, becomes less diverse in Macedonia, becomes less diverse in the colonies (along Montenegro, Albania) and even less so as it travels up Serbia to Hungary.

If E-V13 was all over the place, why is Greece home to the oldest and most diverse clades of it?

Here is a map of the Tribes:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Map_of_ancient_Epirus_and_environs.png

As you can see Lissos(Lezha) and Olekenion(Ulcin) are the most Northern cities that some Greeks had ties with. According to Historians, these cities were merely trading posts as Illyrians controlled the territory. Romans had a heck of a time controlling this region, let alone few Greek trading posts to have such influence....What Greek tribes did Montenegro border?


Greece today is a mish mash of Balkan ethnicities, so it can be anything, really.

[Stefan_Dusan]

For the record, E-V13 is 9% in Ukrainians and only 3% in Spanish and 0% in Basques.

In Greece it seems to be very high in Thessaly, Peloponnese but also the Aegean islands as well as Cypriots : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68

[Stefan_Dusan]

Here is a map of the Tribes:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Map_of_ancient_Epirus_and_environs.png

As you can see Lissos(Lezha) and Olekenion(Ulcin) are the most Northern cities that some Greeks had ties with. According to Historians, these cities were merely trading posts as Illyrians controlled the territory. Romans had a heck of a time controlling this region, let alone few Greek trading posts to have such influence....What Greek tribes did Montenegro border?


Greece today is a mish mash of Balkan ethnicities, so it can be anything, really.

As you can see from that map Olonkenion. The Greeks never tried to control Illyria, they were merchants and set up city states. However, the Greeks city states would have a relative large population in relative to the thinly spread Illyrians who failed to establish a civilization. The Greeks might have gradually intermixed their haplogroup into the Illyrian population which is why only the southern areas of the former base of Illyria (Montenegro, Macedonia, southern Serbia, Albania) seem to be the ones concentrated in E-V13. Serbs in Bosnia and Croatia (who drive the E-V13) are late comers during the Ottoman Empire, many of the times from eastern Serbia (Smederevo, Morvlachs) or Montenegro which explains the spread of E-V13 to central Illyria (Bosnia and Croatia) at same time even less diversity there.

[Stefan_Dusan]

One more thing, the fact that it's high in Cypriots (15%) points to Greek merchants bringing on the maritime. So if you have no problem with Greek merchants doing this with Cyprus why not Albania, Montenegro and some other ports along the adriatic which are much closer?

[Skerdilaid]

For the record, E-V13 is 9% in Ukrainians and only 3% in Spanish and 0% in Basques.

In Greece it seems to be very high in Thessaly, Peloponnese but also the Aegean islands as well as Cypriots : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68
According to the link here the recent spread is during Roman Empire, so I still fail to see how Greeks did it:


In contrast, Cruciani et al. (2007) suggest that the movement out of the Balkans may have been more recent than 5300 years ago. The authors suggest that for the most part, modern E-V13 descends from a population which remained in the Balkans until the Balkan Bronze age. They consider that "the dispersion of the E-V13 and J-M12 haplogroups seems to have mainly followed the river waterways connecting the southern Balkans to north-central Europe". Peričic et al. (2005) propose the Vardar-Morava-Danube rivers as a possible route of Neolithic dispersal into central Europe. Bird (2007) proposes a still more recent dispersal out of the Balkans, around the time of the Roman empire.

In contrast, another major discovery relevant to the study of E-V13 origins was the announcement in Lacan et al. (2011) that a 7000 year old skeleton in a Neolithic context in a Spanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens tested from the same site were in haplogroup G2a, which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using 7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as being similar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence. The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not the modern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recent events, E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic, carried by early farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the Western Mediterranean, much earlier than the Bronze age.

See the bold parts.

[Stefan_Dusan]

See the bold parts.

Pay very careful to this sentence:


The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not the modern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recent events, E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic, carried by early farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the Western Mediterranean, much earlier than the Bronze age.

In other words it repeats what we know, a farmer was found with E-V13 however this is probably not tied to the current distribution of E-V13 in Europe. As we know, this early farmer was found in a region now less than 3% E-V13 but below the Mediterranean in a region rich in E clades.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Bird (2007) proposes a still more recent dispersal out of the Balkans, around the time of the Roman empire.

I don't get why this is bold, the Greeks would have transmitted their E-V13 around the Balkans by the time, and during the Roman Empire. We are interested in the spread of E-V13 and everything points to it spreading from Greece to the rest of the Balkans.

[Skerdilaid]

I don't get why this is bold, the Greeks would have transmitted their E-V13 around the Balkans by the time, and during the Roman Empire. We are interested in the spread of E-V13 and everything points to it spreading from Greece to the rest of the Balkans.

Lol but here is my problem with your theory, according to the link there E-V13 came via East into Balkans, so theoretically it would have to go through central Balkan to enter Greece. Now why the need to explain the explainable, when in fact the farmers spread it to the Balkans circa 5500bc prior to any Greeks or Illyrians existing?

So how about the spread was done by all three groups in the recent time? Thracians and Illyrians via Roman legions in Central Europe and Britain, while the Greeks in South Italy and other coastal cities, since it seems they all got it from the same source?

[Stefan_Dusan]

Lol but here is my problem with your theory, according to the link there E-V13 came via East into Balkans, so theoretically it would have to go through central Balkan to enter Greece. Now why the need to explain the explainable, when in fact the farmers spread it to the Balkans circa 5500bc prior to any Greeks or Illyrians existing?

I don't think it can be that old in the Balkans. Maybe in Greece, but not the reset.

For example, while the spread of E-V13 around Europe is contested, we know one haplogroup spread by neolithic farmers: J*. And you can browse my first post to just see the diversity of J* around the Balkans now in comparison to E-V13. Diversity is something that happens with age and size of the population. If E-V13 was widespread and old in Europe (7,000) we should see many sister clades like we do with J.**

However if E-V13 is recent, or maybe isolated (somewhere in Greece to a small population) and then spread semi-recently to a much larger population, then we can describe the lack of diversity.

This is how I2a2b spread (1500 years ago), except even I2a2b has more diversity in the Balkans than E-V13!


So how about the spread was done by all three groups in the recent time? Thracians and Illyrians via Roman legions in Central Europe and Britain, while the Greeks in South Italy and other coastal cities, since it seems they all got it from the same source?

By Roman times yes, prior to Roman times I think E-V13 just started to spread amongst the southern Illyrians, replacing their original haplogroups in areas of Montenegro, Albania, and Macedonia.

**I can see you bringing up the Spanish farmer again. E-V13 is clearly older than 7,000 years but it's origins are not in Europe but somewhere in Africa. From Africa, it probably reached Europe in several times, but in isolated amounts that never took hold and spread. The Spanish example is great. This is the first evidence of E-V13 in Europe, yet it obviously never took ahold in Spain. You can believe a bunch of farmers traveled from greece up to Germany, and then down into Spain. Or you can believe they took the much shorter trip across the mediterranean and for whatever reason, their genes never established in the long run of Spanish genetics.

[Stefan_Dusan]

I want to add one more point on this from 23andMe:

All the Albanians so far on my 23andMe, on their countries of ancestry, have had Greece on their first or second choice. Then along with Albania, Romania.

For me, Greece is a bit down there. I think 5th or 6th place.

While we can argue if Greeks influenced Albanians, or Albanians influenced Greeks (both is the diplomatic answer), there is definitely a strong genetic exchange in the modern era between those two people. Let me be clear that I do not believe E-V13 in Albanians can be explained by 5th cousins on 23andMe lol, just that there is now and there has always been genetic exchange coming from Greece into Albania.

Last is Albanians plot with Greeks on global similarity maps. To believe the entire Illyrian people from Slovenia to Albania would have plotted with Greeks (especially since proto-Illyrians are believed to come from the north, Germany) is a huge stretch of the imagination. Only southern Illyrians, bordering Greeks, and assimilating many Greeks should be the ones to do so. This may also explain why some northern Albanians leave the Albanian-Greek cluster, maybe instead of slavic blood, they are less "Greek influenced?" This has been true so far for Catholic 'hillbilly' highlanders but not Muslim Albanians from city states like Shkodra or Ulqin.

[cally]

Greeks only plot where they do because of major slavic influences pulling them east and north inline with Bulgarians. Do you ever see someone plotting north and west? How do you explain someone from Peloponnese having higher Eastern European/Baltic components than someone from Kosovo. Surely it should be a gradient highest to lowest from Kosovo to Peloponnesus. Sikeliot is right with his theories.

We plot where we should just east of Central and Northern Italians who have Germanic but not Slavic influences. It's the Greeks who should be more southern plotting. I doubt Illyrians would be plotting higher than modern Northern Italians like lombardista and fla88 who are comfortably located on the Southern European plot. If anything Illyrians would have been plotting with them - in Southern Europe but more western. Any more north is a stretch. (We are talking about Southern Illyrians and illyro-thracians). Illyrians look Balkan more than Germanic with big dinarid noses lol!

The plot seems to be very sensitive to Slavic ancestry. Just a small amount seems to pull you very much north. Greeks should be plotting more south and many do. Bare in mind the Slavs would have had higher Slavic and Atlantic components and the mixing that has happened since then would distort these percentages. So plotting western but Northern doesn't necessarily rule out Slavic ancestry.

seriously if we think about this logically and take into consideration linguistics, Greeks would have totally transformed our language, especially in Kosovo (45% ev13!) I'm not sure why this theory is even being considered. We have many matches in Greece true but also in Italy - it is obvious why. it is more logical to consider arvanite settlement. Human migration is so complex, considering back migrations also occur.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Greeks only plot where they do because of major slavic influences pulling them east and north inline with Bulgarians.

Greeks don't have more slavic influences than Albanians, certainly not more to change the way they plot significantly. If they have a couple more percentage points here or there, this won't change how they plot. There are plenty of Albanians just as east as them, e.g. Kosovo Albanians and Macedonian Albanians. It's only really Albanians from Albania and Montenegro who are more 'western' plotting.

[Stefan_Dusan]

seriously if we think about this logically and take into consideration linguistics, Greeks would have totally transformed our language, especially in Kosovo (45% ev13!) I'm not sure why this theory is even being considered. We have many matches in Greece true but also in Italy - it is obvious why. it is more logical to consider arvanite settlement. Human migration is so complex, considering back migrations also occur.

The 45% or so in Kosovo is due to founder effect. Albanians are very recent settlers in Kosovo, this is why E-V13 is least diverse there. It came from the same source that drove the e-V13 in northern Albania. This is also why Kosovo Albanians and Macedonian Albanians tend to be releated on 23andMe to just about each other, because you sprang up very recently, say 1800s, which is consistent with Ottoman census records.

Take a good example of the Normans on England. They left their haplogroups, but not their language.

[Stefan_Dusan]

The plot seems to be very sensitive to Slavic ancestry. Just a small amount seems to pull you very much north. Greeks should be plotting more south and many do. Bare in mind the Slavs would have had higher Slavic and Atlantic components and the mixing that has happened since then would distort these percentages. So plotting western but Northern doesn't necessarily rule out Slavic ancestry.

I don't see how you can infer this from information. How do you know it's sensitive, how do you know how much of it can pull you north?

Obviously, we also don't know the original slavs who settled in the Balkans. If we assume they are genetically similar to Poles or Ukrainians, then no, slavic ancestry would never pull you west. That would be impossible. However, if the slavic settlers were different in their genetic than modern Poles or Ukrainians that's certainly possible.

However you trying to rescue the notion Illyrians were southward plotting. A people who stretch from Slovenia to Albania, but who were founded by people from Germany would be as southern plotting as modern Greeks. This doesn't make sense.

[cally]

Greeks don't have more slavic influences than Albanians, certainly not more to change the way they plot significantly. If they have a couple more percentage points here or there, this won't change how they plot. There are plenty of Albanians just as east as them, e.g. Kosovo Albanians and Macedonian Albanians. It's only really Albanians from Albania and Montenegro who are more 'western' plotting.

Macedonian Albanians yes but I don't have many who plot very east. Even so, it's understandable for people in such proximity to Slavs. But how does a person from the Pelopennese (Southern most of Greece) score Eastern European components from Russia Ukraine and Poland? This component is in addition to Slavic components hidden under "Balkan"

[cally]

The 45% or so in Kosovo is due to founder effect. Albanians are very recent settlers in Kosovo, this is why E-V13 is least diverse there. It came from the same source that drove the e-V13 in northern Albania. This is also why Kosovo Albanians and Macedonian Albanians tend to be releated on 23andMe to just about each other, because you sprang up very recently, say 1800s, which is consistent with Ottoman census records.

Take a good example of the Normans on England. They left their haplogroups, but not their language.

I have noticed the opposite. I certainly don't share with many Macedonian Albanians eg dusk fall, iNird ect and I am from prizren! Matter of fact I don't share with many Macedonians at all (Slavic or not) I noticed they are more likely to share with Northern Albanians though.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Macedonian Albanians yes but I don't have many who plot very east. Even so, it's understandable for people in such proximity to Slavs. But how does a person from the Pelopennese (Southern most of Greece) score Eastern European components from Russia Ukraine and Poland? This component is in addition to Slavic components hidden under "Balkan"

I don't know honestly what Sikeliot is talking about. I have 3 Greeks, 2 from the Pelopennese and they both plot with Albanians without any distinction. As I told Sikeliot, it's not so much they plot with Bulgarians but that Bulgarians plot with them!

For my Bulgarians, I have 15. 10 plotted deep in the south-slavic cluster, however 5 plotted intermediately which were somewhere near Greeks-Albanians.

And not just MacoAlbos. I just have 1 MacoAlbos, also Kosovo Albanians plot very east compared to Albanians from Montenegro and northern Albania.

[cally]

I don't see how you can infer this from information. How do you know it's sensitive, how do you know how much of it can pull you north?

Obviously, we also don't know the original slavs who settled in the Balkans. If we assume they are genetically similar to Poles or Ukrainians, then no, slavic ancestry would never pull you west. That would be impossible. However, if the slavic settlers were different in their genetic than modern Poles or Ukrainians that's certainly possible.

However you trying to rescue the notion Illyrians were southward plotting. A people who stretch from Slovenia to Albania, but who were founded by people from Germany would be as southern plotting as modern Greeks. This doesn't make sense.

You have to look at the plot and gedmatch results too! Otherwise we'd be thinking swarthy Balkanites are more northern than Celtic influenced northern Italians. Why would Illyrians from Slovenia plot more north than modern Northern Italians? This is what I have noticed taking both into consideration. I'm saying Northern Illyrians could plot close to modern Northern Italians and Southern Illyrians more eastern and Southern than that.

[cally]

I don't know honestly what Sikeliot is talking about. I have 3 Greeks, 2 from the Pelopennese and they both plot with Albanians without any distinction. As I told Sikeliot, it's not so much they plot with Bulgarians but that Bulgarians plot with them!

For my Bulgarians, I have 15. 10 plotted deep in the south-slavic cluster, however 5 plotted intermediately which were somewhere near Greeks-Albanians.

And not just MacoAlbos. I just have 1 MacoAlbos, also Kosovo Albanians plot very east compared to Albanians from Montenegro and northern Albania.

Yes exactly! Should they be plotting with Northern Albanians? If we look at the history of their region and connections with Sicily and Southern Italy ?

[Stefan_Dusan]

You have to look at the plot and gedmatch results too! Otherwise we'd be thinking swarthy Balkanites are more northern than Celtic influenced northern Italians. Why would Illyrians from Slovenia plot more north than modern Northern Italians? This is what I have noticed taking both into consideration. I'm saying Northern Illyrians could plot close to modern Northern Italians and Southern Illyrians more eastern and Southern than that.

GEDMatch results are, to put it bluntly, amateur written calculators. Kind of fun, what I noticed is that my results change, sometimes dramatically, depending on the calculator I use. For all the flak 23andMe ancestry Composition get's, you should multiply by 100x, and that's the problems GEDMatch produces.

Where someone plots, if he is of 'pure' ethnicity is very strong indicator.

As for your last statement, northern Italians principally came from the south, lower Italy. Kind of like Romanians came from the south into Romania. However Illyrians came from the north, Germany, into the Balkans. Or so that's what's believed.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Yes exactly! Should they be plotting with Northern Albanians? If we look at the history of their region and connections with Sicily and Southern Italy ?

Greeks were the ones who had connections to Sicily not Illyrians. In Calabria , the Massepians were assumed to be Illyrians but after some tablets of their language was analyzed, and found not to be related to Albanian (satem versus centum) a whole debate is now ranging if they were indeed Illyrians. Anyways if Illyrians spread to Calabria, they would have brought their language, culture, and some haplogroups but they would undoubtedly have mixed with locals. If you look at the music of Calabria, it's very 'Greek' influenced. I would say Greeks left a stronger input on the Calaberese than Illyrians.

[Skerdilaid]

Stefan, Peloponesse was settled by many groups in modern History AD, and even Arvanits were quite in number that have settled there. So in order to push your theory forward, so that we may consider what you are saying, show us how these supposed " Greeks" came to influence the Ghegs to this extent.

[cally]

GEDMatch results are, to put it bluntly, amateur written calculators. Kind of fun, what I noticed is that my results change, sometimes dramatically, depending on the calculator I use. For all the flak 23andMe ancestry Composition get's, you should multiply by 100x, and that's the problems GEDMatch produces.

Where someone plots, if he is of 'pure' ethnicity is very strong indicator.

As for your last statement, northern Italians principally came from the south, lower Italy. Kind of like Romanians came from the south into Romania. However Illyrians came from the north, Germany, into the Balkans. Or so that's what's believed.

Mine are pretty consistent and tell me I'm basically the southern most plotting Albanian. It's in accordance with the gedmatch results of other Albanians and their plotting location. Eg kurt scores very high Atlantic and is more western.

what do you mean by Northern Italians coming from the south? I don't know about Illyrian origins tbh you know more I guess about that. It's good to discuss this cos I wanted to share my theories and you share yours ect.

I also thought that same thing as you at the beginning - that Greeks have left a lot of genetic influence all over the Balkans but then I saw individuals like northern Italians plotting very low and the gedmatch calculators of individuals like the Greek user helllander and his uncles.

[cally]

Greeks were the ones who had connections to Sicily not Illyrians. In Calabria , the Massepians were assumed to be Illyrians but after some tablets of their language was analyzed, and found not to be related to Albanian (satem versus centum) a whole debate is now ranging if they were indeed Illyrians. Anyways if Illyrians spread to Calabria, they would have brought their language, culture, and some haplogroups but they would undoubtedly have mixed with locals. If you look at the music of Calabria, it's very 'Greek' influenced. I would say Greeks left a stronger input on the Calaberese than Illyrians.

Yes that's I meant sorry for not being clear! Its confusing for me that a region with such high Southern Italian settlement and a very southern location is genetically similar to Northern Albania. Central Greece seems to have the least northern/Slavic influence - what could be the explanation for that? Surely it should be consistent throughout ?

[Stefan_Dusan]

Stefan, Peloponesse was settled by many groups in modern History AD, and even Arvanits were quite in number that have settled there. So in order to push your theory forward, so that we may consider what you are saying, show us how these supposed " Greeks" came to influence the Ghegs to this extent.

So where did these "Arvanits" come from. Albania? If they did then your theory is impossible because E-V13 is older and more diverse in Greece. The direction is clear one way. Peloponnese ->Thessaly-->Macedonia--> Serbia. From Greek maritime it went to colonies along Albania, Montenegro, even Cyprus, Calabria, various other islands. All evidence points to the Greeks spreading this haplogroup, not the Illyrians.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Yes that's I meant sorry for not being clear! Its confusing for me that a region with such high Southern Italian settlement and a very southern location is genetically similar to Northern Albania. Central Greece seems to have the least northern/Slavic influence - what could be the explanation for that? Surely it should be consistent throughout ?

Northern Albanians tend to plot with Northern Italians, maybe even more north. This is not what you'd expect by geography as clearly Northern Italy is clear more north than Northern Albania. But it makes sense genetically.

Italy is guarded from the north by the Alps. Expansions in Italy were primarily from the south to the north, unhindered by mountains.

Expansions to the Balkans were the opposite, from the north to the south. The dinaric mountains are not like the alps, they shield the coast but don't block form invasions from the north.

I believe the coastal population, who was mainly E-V13 (due to Greek maritime) went into these mountains sometime in their history (maybe due to Ottoman conquests, Venetians, etc) and then later spilled into the adjacent valleys of, say Kosovo.

[Insuperable]

And degree for this research goes to Stefan_Dusan

Congratulations
http://s2.postimg.org/ho93tmuyh/Online_Degree.jpg

[Stefan_Dusan]

Yes that's I meant sorry for not being clear! Its confusing for me that a region with such high Southern Italian settlement and a very southern location is genetically similar to Northern Albania. Central Greece seems to have the least northern/Slavic influence - what could be the explanation for that? Surely it should be consistent throughout ?

One more thing, I have no idea on "Central Greece" since I don't have more than 3 Greeks. This is such a risky thing to say. But if Sikeliot is claiming these things, honestly, I'd take them with a grain of salt (no offense to him). Logically I'd imagine the islands (Crete) being the least slavic. Central Greece doesn't make sense since everyone knows about Slavic influence in the Peloponnese and Macedonia, and central Greece is in-between those!

What might have happened, in recent history, is a lot of Pontic Greeks settled there, so Sikeliot (or whoever is claiming this) is seeing the results of Pontic Greeks, or Greeks mixed with Pontic Greeks.

[Skerdilaid]

So where did these "Arvanits" come from. Albania? If they did then your theory is impossible because E-V13 is older and more diverse in Greece. The direction is clear one way. Peloponnese ->Thessaly-->Macedonia--> Serbia. From Greek maritime it went to colonies along Albania, Montenegro, even Cyprus, Calabria, various other islands. All evidence points to the Greeks spreading this haplogroup, not the Illyrians.

Arvanits are well recorded, and they did migrate from Albania to Greece. Diversity does not show us the language nor the ethnicity, so just because it exists today in Greece does not make it Greek!

As for the rest it's all you basing your theory on a Greek bloger. ...

[Hevo]

They might had some R1a too.(Or some parts of the Balkans atleast)

[Kastrioti1443]

Stefan, the theory of the diversity of Ev-13 in Greece is said only by Dienkes, and not by anyone else, ok mate?

The maritime words in albanian are in general of pure albanian or latin influenced, not greek at all. About the Arvanites who were and when the migrated there are like 1000 document of byzantine empire, their first leader was the albanian lord, Gjin Bue Shpata, in english Gjin Bue the Sword.

[Black Wolf]

It is very likely that the E-V13 in the Balkans came from the Near East with Neolithic farmers. Same goes for the J2b found there.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Stefan, the theory of the diversity of Ev-13 in Greece is said only by Dienkes, and not by anyone else, ok mate?

Dienekes is just quoting a study, he is obviously didn't conduct the study on Greeks, Albanians, etc. I also showed a study that demonstrates this again, and it's entirely different from the one Dienekes quotes.

[Stefan_Dusan]

It is very likely that the E-V13 in the Balkans came from the Near East with Neolithic farmers. Same goes for the J2b found there.

If it did, there would be more diversity. E-V13 residing in the Balkans for thousands of years for a fairly large population, would imply more diversity than it has now. We see this diversity in J, we don't see it with E-V13. If E-V13 came to the Balkans in neolithic times, it stayed in Greece to a very small compact population and then later spread, independent of how J spread.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Arvanits are well recorded, and they did migrate from Albania to Greece. Diversity does not show us the language nor the ethnicity, so just because it exists today in Greece does not make it Greek!

As for the rest it's all you basing your theory on a Greek bloger. ...

But Arvanits got their E-V13 from Greeks many generations before they they immigrated to Greece. All this reenforces is the genetic interchange between Greeks and Albanians.

And why do you keep mentioning a Greek blogger? He's quoting a study. The study demonstrates E-V13 is older in Greece and more diverse there. He's connecting the dots to E-V13 spreading by Greek migrations but in no way does this invalidate my first point, Albanians didn't bring E-V13 to the Greeks, it was the other way around.

[Pjeter Pan]

http://i61.tinypic.com/21myr2t.jpg
http://i58.tinypic.com/b6wls8.jpg
http://i60.tinypic.com/250s0m0.jpg
Idk how the ancient Greeks could have spread e-v13 if northern Albanians especially kosovars have a much higher percentage of e-v13 that goes up to 43% while the Greeks highest percentage goes up to like 20-26%

Go to the genetic studies
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians

[Black Wolf]

If it did, there would be more diversity. E-V13 residing in the Balkans for thousands of years for a fairly large population, would imply more diversity than it has now. We see this diversity in J, we don't see it with E-V13. If E-V13 came to the Balkans in neolithic times, it stayed in Greece to a very small compact population and then later spread, independent of how J spread.

Well we need ancient DNA really to prove something one way or another. I bet E-V13 entered Europe with Neolithic farmers mainly though from the Near East.

[Black Wolf]

http://i61.tinypic.com/21myr2t.jpg
http://i58.tinypic.com/b6wls8.jpg
http://i60.tinypic.com/250s0m0.jpg
Idk how the ancient Greeks could have spread e-v13 if northern Albanians especially kosovars have a much higher percentage of e-v13 that goes up to 43% while the Greeks highest percentage goes up to like 20-26%

Go to the genetic studies
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians

Haplogroup percentages do not tell about where the haplogroup itself originated. The high E-V13 amounts among Kosovars and North Albanians are probably due to founder effects. They were isolated groups genetically.

[Insuperable]

It is very likely that the E-V13 in the Balkans came from the Near East with Neolithic farmers. Same goes for the J2b found there.

E-V13, G (Oetzi) and J. Imo E-V13 and G were the main representatives of Mediterranean autosomal component and I don't know what to think about J clades.

[Black Wolf]

E-V13, G (Oetzi) and J. Imo E-V13 and G were the main representatives of Mediterranean autosomal component and I don't know what to think about J clades.

No one knows exactly what to think us J fellas right now lol....The ancient haplogroup J especially the J2 (J2a) men may have been linked to the West Asian autosomal component. That would make sense to me but it is just a guess at this point really.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Idk how the ancient Greeks could have spread e-v13 if northern Albanians especially kosovars have a much higher percentage of e-v13 that goes up to 43% while the Greeks highest percentage goes up to like 20-26%

This is called founder effect. The same reason why Croats and Serbs from Herzegovina can be 70% I2a2b but they received this from slavic populations only 20% I2a2b if not even less. And it's fairly easy to see how the situation arises.

Besides, those maps are not correct. We know now that the Peloponnese has just as much E-V13 as Kosovo. And no one tested northern Albanians, they're just making inferences from Kosovo and tests done in Tirana.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Well we need ancient DNA really to prove something one way or another. I bet E-V13 entered Europe with Neolithic farmers mainly though from the Near East.

We will never get enough ancient samples to build a picture of the haplogroups present. But we do have current people today,

Greeks have more diversity and older clades of E-V13 then everyone else in Europe, including Albanians. This diversity and age is not a minor but at times, very significant gap. If E-V13 entered the balkans and was evenly spread, why do we not find those old and diverse clades in Albanians?

E-V13 could have very well entered Greece in the neolithic, but it "basically" stayed in Greece until the height of the Greek city states and culture from where it was spread. It was absent everywhere else in the Balkans to any "significant amount" until ancient Hellenes developed their culture.

[Stefan_Dusan]

No one knows exactly what to think us J fellas right now lol....The ancient haplogroup J especially the J2 (J2a) men may have been linked to the West Asian autosomal component. That would make sense to me but it is just a guess at this point really.

J to me is the haplogroup of the neolithic farmers. It's found everywhere these farmers lived, with hotspots in Italy, Greece, Bulgaria. Everywhere else these farmers made little impact. Look at my second post in this thread and see just the diversity of J haplogroups found in the Balkans. I think fairly consistent with the idea of larger farming population in the Balkans for thousands of years. My discovery of the diversity of J was one major reason why I began to question the notion put together by only amateur forumites, that E-V13 was marker of the Illyrians.

[dralos]

We will never get enough ancient samples to build a picture of the haplogroups present. But we do have current people today,

Greeks have more diversity and older clades of E-V13 then everyone else in Europe, including Albanians. This diversity and age is not a minor but at times, very significant gap. If E-V13 entered the balkans and was evenly spread, why do we not find those old and diverse clades in Albanians?

E-V13 could have very well entered Greece in the neolithic, but it "basically" stayed in Greece until the height of the Greek city states and culture from where it was spread. It was absent everywhere else in the Balkans to any "significant amount" until ancient Hellenes developed their culture.
you're forgetting about the arvanites of greece they could have caused this diversity

[Stefan_Dusan]

you're forgetting about the arvanites of greece they could have caused this diversity

Everyone keeps bringing them up. So let me ask you where did arvanites come from? Albania?

[kuqezi]

Its clear from the maps that E-V13 din't spread from the coast from Greeks. Such an inland nucleus scraps that theory.

[dralos]

Everyone keeps bringing them up. So let me ask you where did arvanites come from? Albania?
no arvanites were always in greece,you're forgetting that whole attica spoke albanian
even some islands like the hydra

[Stefan_Dusan]

Its clear from the maps that E-V13 din't spread from the coast from Greeks. Such an inland nucleus scraps that theory.

How is it clear, give an argument not an assertion?

And E-V13 spread both by coast and by land. By land it went Peloponnese -> Thessaly - (reduction in age and diversity) -> Macedonia - (reduction in age and diversity) -> Serbia -> so on

From the coasts it spread to Aegean Islands, Cyprus, Black Sea area, city states in Montenegro and Albania. From which it spread by land, not super far. Western Kosovo is a couple day trips by foot from the Albanian or Montenegrin seaside. Not to mention river valleys leading through eastern Kosovo from Macedonia.

[Stefan_Dusan]

no arvanites were always in greece,you're forgetting that whole attica spoke albanian
even some islands like the hydra

If Arvanites were in Greece, where did Albanians come from? Arvanites or someone else?

[kuqezi]

no arvanites were always in greece,you're forgetting that whole attica spoke albanian
even some islands like the hydra

??

Arvanites migrated there in the middle ages.

[kuqezi]

How is it clear, give an argument not an assertion?

And E-V13 spread both by coast and by land. By land it went Peloponnese -> Thessaly - (reduction in age and diversity) -> Macedonia - (reduction in age and diversity) -> Serbia -> so on

From the coasts it spread to Aegean Islands, Cyprus, Black Sea area, city states in Montenegro and Albania. From which it spread by land, not super far. Western Kosovo is a couple day trips by foot from the Albanian or Montenegrin seaside. Not to mention river valleys leading through eastern Kosovo from Macedonia.

Your making huge leaps here like if someone didn't know anything about history or anthropology. You will run into millions of wrong conclusions if going on Genetics alone. City dwellers didn't move inland they had no business to they were a world apart. And I'm not talking about Cyprus I don't give a rats ass about them. I'm talking about E-V13 in Albanians and Serbs.

The only way I can see E-V13 being from Peloponnese and having such a major paternal influence in our area is if carriers of that maker came from the Peloponnese to Dardania in Roman times, where pastoralized (became Vlachs) when the Slavs came and in turn founding clans with many descendants mostly Albanianised but also later eventually Slavicised in Serb areas. The odds are stacked against this theory as well though.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Your making huge leaps here like if someone didn't know anything about history or anthropology. You will run into millions of wrong conclusions if going on Genetics alone. City dwellers didn't move inland they had no business to they were a world apart. And I'm not talking about Cyprus I don't give a rats ass about them. I'm talking about E-V13 in Albanians and Serbs.

This is a blind assertion. Coon is far far far far x 100 a worse source to draw this conclusion than unbiased genetic results that can see back in time thousands of years.

Let me ask you, where do you think you got the Plis? This hat is not an Illyrian one.


The only way I can see E-V13 being from Peloponnese and having such a major paternal influence in our area is if carriers of that maker came from the Peloponnese to Dardania in Roman times, where pastoralized (became Vlachs) when the Slavs came and in turn founding clans with many descendants mostly Albanianised but also later eventually Slavicised in Serb areas. The odds are stacked against this theory as well though.

Just let me ask you this, why do Albanians have newer clades and less diverse clades of E-V13. Better yet, from where do you think E-V13 entered Europe and became that of the Illyrians, give me your theory, instead of trying to throw sand because you don't like mine*

*This is Dienekes as well. I started this thread without knowledge of him (you introduced him) but I had arrived at same conclusion, sea faring people, I was going to suggest Greeks as being the most likely of such people.

[Black Wolf]

We will never get enough ancient samples to build a picture of the haplogroups present. But we do have current people today,

Greeks have more diversity and older clades of E-V13 then everyone else in Europe, including Albanians. This diversity and age is not a minor but at times, very significant gap. If E-V13 entered the balkans and was evenly spread, why do we not find those old and diverse clades in Albanians?

E-V13 could have very well entered Greece in the neolithic, but it "basically" stayed in Greece until the height of the Greek city states and culture from where it was spread. It was absent everywhere else in the Balkans to any "significant amount" until ancient Hellenes developed their culture.

You don't know that for sure. Ancient samples can give us a good clue as to what happened in the past. This has already begun with the genomes of ancient pre-historic individuals such as La Brana and Ma'lta being tested. Most likely E-V13 expanded out of Greece or the Southern Balkans first though in that area of the world because it would have entered via Anatolia most likely.

[dralos]

If Arvanites were in Greece, where did Albanians come from? Arvanites or someone else?
albanians were present from dalmatia to greece

[Black Wolf]

J to me is the haplogroup of the neolithic farmers. It's found everywhere these farmers lived, with hotspots in Italy, Greece, Bulgaria. Everywhere else these farmers made little impact. Look at my second post in this thread and see just the diversity of J haplogroups found in the Balkans. I think fairly consistent with the idea of larger farming population in the Balkans for thousands of years. My discovery of the diversity of J was one major reason why I began to question the notion put together by only amateur forumites, that E-V13 was marker of the Illyrians.

Yet no J has been found among the Neolithic farmer remains from Europe so far. All of them have pretty much turned out to be Y-DNA haplogroup G males. Southeast Europe may be a different case though as no ancient samples have been tested from there yet for Y-DNA.

[Kastrioti1443]

This greek mongrel came here.... this is a very civilized discussion you fucking mongrel, no need to make it bad.

[Kastrioti1443]

This is a blind assertion. Coon is far far far far x 100 a worse source to draw this conclusion than unbiased genetic results that can see back in time thousands of years.

Let me ask you, where do you think you got the Plis? This hat is not an Illyrian one.


Just let me ask you this, why do Albanians have newer clades and less diverse clades of E-V13. Better yet, from where do you think E-V13 entered Europe and became that of the Illyrians, give me your theory, instead of trying to throw sand because you don't like mine*

*This is Dienekes as well. I started this thread without knowledge of him (you introduced him) but I had arrived at same conclusion, sea faring people, I was going to suggest Greeks as being the most likely of such people.



Dude Plis and The hair of the albanian malsore girls ( both are seen in ancient hellenic statues) are the direct proof that albanians are direct descendants of alexander the great and not the other way around.


We repeated a lot of times that the theory of 3v-13 being more diverse in southern greece is posted and not proved by dienkes, just a nationalistic theory

[Kastrioti1443]

This is a blind assertion. Coon is far far far far x 100 a worse source to draw this conclusion than unbiased genetic results that can see back in time thousands of years.

Let me ask you, where do you think you got the Plis? This hat is not an Illyrian one.


Just let me ask you this, why do Albanians have newer clades and less diverse clades of E-V13. Better yet, from where do you think E-V13 entered Europe and became that of the Illyrians, give me your theory, instead of trying to throw sand because you don't like mine*

*This is Dienekes as well. I started this thread without knowledge of him (you introduced him) but I had arrived at same conclusion, sea faring people, I was going to suggest Greeks as being the most likely of such people.



Dude Plis and The hair of the albanian malsore girls ( both are seen in ancient hellenic statues) are the direct proof that albanians are direct descendants of alexander the great and not the other way around.


We repeated a lot of times that the theory of 3v-13 being more diverse in southern greece is posted and not proved by dienkes, just a nationalistic theory

[Skerdilaid]

How do we know that actually this diversity is among ethnic Greeks and not Slav, Vlahs, and Albanians inhabiting Peloponnese?

[1stLightHorse]

So, you'll have to excuse my ignorance but how long exactly have the Illyrians been identifiable as an ethnic group? How many thousands of years? Did they absorb and assimilate other peoples?? Or were they isolated?

[kuqezi]

This is a blind assertion. Coon is far far far far x 100 a worse source to draw this conclusion than unbiased genetic results that can see back in time thousands of years.

Let me ask you, where do you think you got the Plis? This hat is not an Illyrian one.



Just let me ask you this, why do Albanians have newer clades and less diverse clades of E-V13. Better yet, from where do you think E-V13 entered Europe and became that of the Illyrians, give me your theory, instead of trying to throw sand because you don't like mine*

*This is Dienekes as well. I started this thread without knowledge of him (you introduced him) but I had arrived at same conclusion, sea faring people, I was going to suggest Greeks as being the most likely of such people.

First off you have no idea how much you are underestimating Coon. He is a giant in his field although that field is dead now for political reasons thats why you don't hear about him too much which is very sad. Secondly he cannot in anyway be considered biased. He's a historian of peoples especially early ones.

The plis is one of many things showing our archaic culture that could have only been maintained till today in isolation by a people composed of the same stock that bore it in ancient times. The Illyrians also had ancient Greek style helmets and shields and likely clothes too like many others including the Etruscans. The plis was a basic shepherd cap common to our peoples its as simple as that. Just look at what its made of. Sea trading greeks on costal cities likely didn't even wear them.

The theory I put forth, which we can call the "Vlach theory" from here on out, is way more likely than that Greek coastal cities theory of that inferiority complexed Orthodox mongrel propagandist Dienekes.

[Skerdilaid]

So, you'll have to excuse my ignorance but how long exactly have the Illyrians been identifiable as an ethnic group? How many thousands of years? Did they absorb and assimilate other people's?? Or were they isolated?

No one knows even how they referenced themselves, they have been called as such by Greeks then Romans. For all we know, and how I think they identified is by tribe, so in my opinion their tribal identity was a lot stronger then what Greeks and Romans referred to them.

Illyrians just like the Greeks absorbed quite a bit of the ingeniousness inhabitants of the Balkans when they brought the Indo-European language to this area. E-V13 in my opinion is their mark, call them Pelasgian or whatever. Greeks themselves might have absorbed more but still it does not make this clade Greek, and neither Illyrian. So this is why in my opinion this discussion is futile, and only some crazy nationalists would push such a theory...

[iNird]

By far the highest rates of IBD within any populations is found between Albanian speakers { around 200 ancestors from 0{500ya, and around 1800 ancestors from 500{1500ya (so high that we left them out of gure 5; see supplemental gure S5). Beyond 1500ya, the rates of IBD drop to levels typical for other populations in the eastern grouping.

---
For instance, the high degree of shared common ancestry among Albanian speakers might be because most of these originated from a small village rather than uniformly across Albania and Kosovo. However, this would not explain the high rate of IBD between Albanian speakers and neighboring populations. Even populations from which we only have one or two samples, which we at rst assumed would be unusably noisy, provide generally reliable, consistent patterns, as evidenced by e.g. supplemental gure S3.
---
The highest levels of IBD sharing are found in the Albanian-speaking individuals (from Albania and Kosovo), an increase in common ancestry deriving from the last 1,500 years. This suggests that a reasonable
proportion of the ancestors of modern-day Albanian speakers are drawn from a relatively small, cohesive population that has persisted for at least the last 1,500 years. These individuals share similar numbers of common ancestors with nearby populations as do individuals in other parts of Europe, implying that the Albanian speakers have not been a particularly isolated population so much as a small one. Furthermore, our Greek samples (and to a lesser degree, the Macedonians) share much higher numbers of common ancestors with Albanian speakers than with other neighbors, possibly due to smaller effects of the Slavic expansion in these populations. The Albanian language is a Indo-European language without other close relatives (Hamp, 1966) that persisted through periods when neighboring languages were strongly in influenced by Latin or Greek. The "origin" of modern-day Albanians is contentious; it is argued for instance that they are descended in large part from the Illyrians (Wilkes, 1996) who populated the eastern side of the Adriatic sea and part of modern-day Salento (Italy) during Roman times. Our results are certainly consistent with this view, including the fact that Italians share more common ancestors with Albanian speakers than with other populations (although these ancestors are estimated to be from the last 1,500 years), so this may reflect more recent migration

-----
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1207.3815v1.pdf

The study implies Albanians are found to be the most homogenous group in Europe and it appears the Slavic impact isn't that great.

[Stefan_Dusan]

By far the highest rates of IBD within any populations is found between Albanian speakers { around 200 ancestors from 0{500ya, and around 1800 ancestors from 500{1500ya (so high that we left them out of gure 5; see supplemental gure S5). Beyond 1500ya, the rates of IBD drop to levels typical for other populations in the eastern grouping.

---
For instance, the high degree of shared common ancestry among Albanian speakers might be because most of these originated from a small village rather than uniformly across Albania and Kosovo. However, this would not explain the high rate of IBD between Albanian speakers and neighboring populations. Even populations from which we only have one or two samples, which we at rst assumed would be unusably noisy, provide generally reliable, consistent patterns, as evidenced by e.g. supplemental gure S3.
---
The highest levels of IBD sharing are found in the Albanian-speaking individuals (from Albania and Kosovo), an increase in common ancestry deriving from the last 1,500 years. This suggests that a reasonable
proportion of the ancestors of modern-day Albanian speakers are drawn from a relatively small, cohesive population that has persisted for at least the last 1,500 years. These individuals share similar numbers of common ancestors with nearby populations as do individuals in other parts of Europe, implying that the Albanian speakers have not been a particularly isolated population so much as a small one. Furthermore, our Greek samples (and to a lesser degree, the Macedonians) share much higher numbers of common ancestors with Albanian speakers than with other neighbors, possibly due to smaller effects of the Slavic expansion in these populations. The Albanian language is a Indo-European language without other close relatives (Hamp, 1966) that persisted through periods when neighboring languages were strongly in influenced by Latin or Greek. The "origin" of modern-day Albanians is contentious; it is argued for instance that they are descended in large part from the Illyrians (Wilkes, 1996) who populated the eastern side of the Adriatic sea and part of modern-day Salento (Italy) during Roman times. Our results are certainly consistent with this view, including the fact that Italians share more common ancestors with Albanian speakers than with other populations (although these ancestors are estimated to be from the last 1,500 years), so this may reflect more recent migration

-----
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1207.3815v1.pdf

The study implies Albanians are found to be the most homogenous group in Europe and it appears the Slavic impact isn't that great.

Kosovo Albanians are related to each other because they srapng up recently in 1800s. I'm not sure what this has to do with origins of E-V13 or anything though xD And no this doesn't mean anything about slavic ancestry since if it was mixed into Albanians before their bottleneck effect (out of the mountains) the same would be true.

[Stefan_Dusan]

So, you'll have to excuse my ignorance but how long exactly have the Illyrians been identifiable as an ethnic group? How many thousands of years? Did they absorb and assimilate other peoples?? Or were they isolated?

Illyrians are not an ethnic group. Illyrians is an outsider term (greeks and romans) to describe various people. The Illyrians themselves didn't identify each as kin, warred with each other, and might not have even spoke the same language. You have to remember that Illyrians never succeeded in founding a civilization (which is why we can't find enough traces of their language to compare to Albanian and make definite statements like we can re Ancient Greek to modern Greek).


The name "Illyrians", as applied by the ancient Greeks to their northern neighbors, may have referred to a broad, ill-defined group of peoples, and it is today unclear to what extent they were linguistically and culturally homogeneous. In fact, an Illyric origin was and still is attributed also to a few ancient peoples in Italy, in particular the Iapyges, Dauni and Messapi, as it is thought that, most likely, they had followed Adriatic shorelines to the peninsula, coming from the geographic "Illyria". The Illyrian tribes never collectively regarded themselves as 'Illyrians', and it is unlikely that they used any collective nomenclature for themselves.[6] However, the name Illyrians seems to be the name applied to a specific Illyrian tribe, which was the first to come in contact with the ancient Greeks during the Bronze Age,[7] causing the name Illyrians to be applied to all people of similar language and customs.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians

[Scholarios]

Illyrians were a HUUUGE catch-all name for a diverse people- Doubt they had 1 or even 2-3 major haplogroups.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Illyrians.jpg

[Stefan_Dusan]

First off you have no idea how much you are underestimating Coon. He is a giant in his field although that field is dead now for political reasons thats why you don't hear about him too much which is very sad. Secondly he cannot in anyway be considered biased. He's a historian of peoples especially early ones.

Coon is an anthropologist, he is not a historian, or geneticist. Anthropology was a big science back in the day partly because they didn't have (or know about) genetics. A lot of what Coon said is wrong, and we now have genetics to see just how wrong he is. But he is not relevant here. How he found Ghegs in early 20th century (or whenever he did) is not relevant to how Ghegs got E-V13 during the time of the Greeks.


The plis is one of many things showing our archaic culture that could have only been maintained till today in isolation by a people composed of the same stock that bore it in ancient times. The Illyrians also had ancient Greek style helmets and shields and likely clothes too like many others including the Etruscans. The plis was a basic shepherd cap common to our peoples its as simple as that. Just look at what its made of. Sea trading greeks on costal cities likely didn't even wear them.

The Plis is a hat from the ancient Greeks, whom you before failed to see had any influence on Albanians.

Personally I think the Plis is a collision of design between the Albanian one and that of the ancient Greeks. During Muslim times, Muslims had to cover their heads so all sorts of hats appeared. But speculating that it's a vestige of Greeks nicely coincides with my theory of E-V13 so I just had to put it out there.


The theory I put forth, which we can call the "Vlach theory" from here on out, is way more likely than that Greek coastal cities theory of that inferiority complexed Orthodox mongrel propagandist Dienekes.

And who are the Vlachs? Where did they get there E-V13? In reality a lot of Albanians (especially of the north) assimilated a lot of Vlach speakers but this doesn't answer my question. Vlachs themselves got E-V13 from somewhere.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Illyrians were a HUUUGE catch-all name for a diverse people- Doubt they had 1 or even 2-3 major haplogroups.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Illyrians.jpg

Yes they assimilated a lot of people, but they came from the north. The question is the original haplogroup of the Illyrians, i.e the men who came to the Balkans. I bet they picked up a lot of J* and R1b* when they came to the Balkans but I don't think these came with the Illyrians, rather were already there in the Balkans. Everyone in this thread knows my stance on E-V13 and I2a2b so I won't repeat.

[iNird]

Kosovo Albanians are related to each other because they srapng up recently in 1800s. I'm not sure what this has to do with origins of E-V13 or anything though xD And no this doesn't mean anything about slavic ancestry since if it was mixed into Albanians before their bottleneck effect (out of the mountains) the same would be true.

Not much but better to bring up actual studies than some of the pseudo-science being thrown in this thread. Also the studies found greeks and Macedonians share more common ancestors with Albanians than they do with their neighbors and the author implies this is due to less Slavic expansion in these areas.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Not much but better to bring up actual studies than some of the pseudo-science being thrown in this thread. Also the studies found greeks and Macedonians share more common ancestors with Albanians than they do with their neighbors and the author implies this is due to less Slavic expansion in these areas.

I have already put an actually study about the diversity of E-V13 in this thread. Kuqezi had inadvertently too. I think Greeks and Macedonians share more common ancestors is because many Macedonians come from Greece and probably mixed with the populations. Whereas Kosovo Albanians spread very recently in the 1800s from northern Albania, not giving much adequate time for mixing. But as can be seen from my results, I'm related to many Albanians anyway xD

[iNird]

I have already put an actually study about the diversity of E-V13 in this thread. Kuqezi had inadvertently too. I think Greeks and Macedonians share more common ancestors is because many Macedonians come from Greece and probably mixed with the populations. Whereas Kosovo Albanians spread very recently in the 1800s from northern Albania, not giving much adequate time for mixing. But as can be seen from my results, I'm related to many Albanians anyway xD

Well the haplogroups posted on Eupedia from Southern Greece where arvanites settled does not differ much than those reported in Albania.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Well the haplogroups posted on Eupedia from Southern Greece where arvanites settled does not differ much than those reported in Albania.

Yes but E-V13 is older and diverse in Greeks than in Albanians (from Albania and everywhere). So Arvanits couldn't have brought E-V13 to Greek since their source is much younger.

[iNird]

Yes but E-V13 is older and diverse in Greeks than in Albanians (from Albania and everywhere). So Arvanits couldn't have brought E-V13 to Greek since their source is much younger.

I wasn't implying the arvanites brought ev13 to all of Greece, all I am doing is comparing the y DNA haplogroups amongst the two sides on Eupedia and noting how similar the distribution is.

[kuqezi]

Coon is an anthropologist, he is not a historian, or geneticist. Anthropology was a big science back in the day partly because they didn't have (or know about) genetics. A lot of what Coon said is wrong, and we now have genetics to see just how wrong he is. But he is not relevant here. How he found Ghegs in early 20th century (or whenever he did) is not relevant to how Ghegs got E-V13 during the time of the Greeks.



The Plis is a hat from the ancient Greeks, whom you before failed to see had any influence on Albanians.

Personally I think the Plis is a collision of design between the Albanian one and that of the ancient Greeks. During Muslim times, Muslims had to cover their heads so all sorts of hats appeared. But speculating that it's a vestige of Greeks nicely coincides with my theory of E-V13 so I just had to put it out there.



And who are the Vlachs? Where did they get there E-V13? In reality a lot of Albanians (especially of the north) assimilated a lot of Vlach speakers but this doesn't answer my question. Vlachs themselves got E-V13 from somewhere.

As usual Coon knockers never knock his arguments just his work as a whole.

There is no proof that the plis was exclusively theirs. Next you might want to claim simple tunics as Greek too. The plis doesn't have anything to do with muslims either. The turban does though which when worn many times completely hides the plis.

Really though this theory of yours really boggles the mind. On linguistic grounds on Albanian relationship with Greek language the theory falls flat on its ass.

In roman Dardania there could have been theoretically Peleponnisians present whoes paternal line later became pastoralized and ended up founding large clans that are today Albanian and Serb. Then again I know jack shit about genetics I'm just a beginner since I started with this forum. Like I said I'm basing my theory on E-V13 being Greek which I don't think is the case. We just don't have enough data and we are FAR from being qualified to draw conclusions. This can only be good for brain exercise.

[Stefan_Dusan]

I wasn't implying the arvanites brought ev13 to all of Greece, all I am doing is comparing the y DNA haplogroups amongst the two sides on Eupedia and noting how similar the distribution is.

It gets most similar in Albania. Ratio of E-V13, J, and R1b* as well as R1a* and I* is similar to that found in Greeks. Once you get to Kosovo it's obviously skewed slightly (and not surprising given history of expansion).

[Stefan_Dusan]

On linguistic grounds on Albanian relationship with Greek language the theory falls flat on its ass.

Montenegrins have 30-35% E-V13 and speak Slavic. The same amounts as Albania, and not too far off Kosovo Albanians. You can't tie linguistics to haplogroups. And if you'd think about it, you'd see why and not even need my example.

[iNird]

It gets most similar in Albania. Ratio of E-V13, J, and R1b* as well as R1a* and I* is similar to that found in Greeks. Once you get to Kosovo it's obviously skewed slightly (and not surprising given history of expansion).

Like I said compare the results on eupedia between northern Greece, southern Greece, Central Greece and Cyprus and the results of Southern Greece is most similar to Albania ( you can run a coefficient correlation calculation between all different groups to show this.)

[Stefan_Dusan]

There is no proof that the plis was exclusively theirs. Next you might want to claim simple tunics as Greek too. The plis doesn't have anything to do with muslims either. The turban does though which when worn many times completely hides the plis.

It's a hat, many Albanian Muslims wear "white fez" which to me looks a lot like a Plis just with the cone chopped flat. Who knows, maybe coincidence of design (to resemble Greek Plis) or maybe truly preserved. But ancient Greeks are the first recorded to have the Plis.

[kuqezi]

The flat top plis supposedly is worn by tribes that recognized Turkish rule. The plis with a "peak" as we say were donned by clans that recognized no master. The plis is just an ancient shepherd cap worn in the region. Its expect that the Greeks were the first to record it as they were the first to record most things, like the Illyrians themselves.

I'm telling you history is a must here or you'll end up looking like an ass.

[Stefan_Dusan]

The flat top plis supposedly is worn by tribes that recognized Turkish rule. The plis with a "peak" as we say were donned by clans that recognized no master. The plis is just an ancient shepherd cap worn in the region. Its expect that the Greeks were the first to record it as they were the first to record most things, like the Illyrians themselves.

I'm telling you history is a must here or you'll end up looking like an ass.

The Romans also employed the Greek Plis, when freeing slaves. However these legends are just legends. No one knows where Albanian Plis comes from.

[kuqezi]

Montenegrins have 30-35% E-V13 and speak Slavic. The same amounts as Albania, and not too far off Kosovo Albanians. You can't tie linguistics to haplogroups. And if you'd think about it, you'd see why and not even need my example.

I understand your point but you need to remember a few things. Albanian language is basically Illyrian and the Albanians are Illyrian, so our language can tell us certain things about our past and our relationships with different people. Latin loans are huge as we formed north of the Jirecek line but we also have Doric Greek loans which are few in comparison but can be expected due to proximity and superior Greek civilization. If Greeks founded numerous paternal lines you'd expect them to leave a lot more linguistic heritage, especially because they were highly superior civilizationally and because of that fact they wouldn't have assimilated into barbaric Illyrian remnants anyways.

[Stefan_Dusan]

I understand your point but you need to remember a few things. Albanian language is basically Illyrian and the Albanians are Illyrian, so our language can tell us certain things about our past and our relationships with different people. Latin loans are huge as we formed north of the Jirecek line but we also have Doric Greek loans which are few in comparison but can be expected due to proximity and superior Greek civilization. If Greeks founded numerous paternal lines you'd expect them to leave a lot more linguistic heritage, especially because they were highly superior civilizationally and because of that fact they wouldn't have assimilated into barbaric Illyrian remnants anyways.

Montenegrin has almost no Greek words, and almost the same E-V13 levels xD

[kuqezi]

Imagine you were an ancient Greek living in a city on the Montenegrin coast. Would you leave your sea-based life and civilization to go live inland with barbaric tribes that eat each other's enemies in order to gain their powers and knowledge?

[kuqezi]

Montenegrin has almost no Greek words, and almost the same E-V13 levels xD

Thats why I'm talking about Albanians and not Montenegrins who are linguistically Slavicized natives, unless you wanna tell me E-V13 came with the Slavs now.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Thats why I'm talking about Albanians and not Montenegrins who are linguistically Slavicized natives, unless you wanna tell me E-V13 came with the Slavs now.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. In one breath you argue that haplogroups should reflect in language. Now you say 'slavicized natives.'

Anyways most Greek words would be related to the sea, as the Greek merchants were especially sophisticated there. After a couple of generations of fleeing to the mountains, all of those would be lost. Keep in mind, there were no schools, the only words you used were the ones you needed, and words for the sea have no use in the mountains.

[Stefan_Dusan]

Imagine you were an ancient Greek living in a city on the Montenegrin coast. Would you leave your sea-based life and civilization to go live inland with barbaric tribes that eat each other's enemies in order to gain their powers and knowledge?

Why not? Do you know how much turmoil and warfare the coats underwent from the Venetians and Ottomans? Many people fled just to avoid persecution.

[Krampus]

So is it E-V13 or I2a? There seems to be arguments about which one is the true Illyrian gene.

[Guapo]

Ask Solin

[Insuperable]

It is EV-13.

[Black Wolf]

You will not know until and if ancient Illyrian remains are ever tested. Even then they probably will have a mixed genetic background.

[alfieb]

I2a2.

[dralos]

ev13

[Pjeter Pan]

Both

[Krampus]

Is it possible they can both be Illyrian genes like J2b is a Paleo-Balkan gene with E-V13?

[Gaston]

One haplogroup only is impossible.

[dralos]

Both
wrong I2A2 is proven to be slavic whats with this yugo propaganda

[Black Wolf]

One haplogroup only is impossible.

This is most likely correct. By the time Illyrians came about different peoples had been mixing for a long time. I can almost guarantee that the Illyrians would have been composed of a number of different Y-DNA haplogroups. I do not know if you can say any one of them is the ''original'' one.

[alfieb]

Sardinians are I2a1. Obviously I2 was in the Mediterranean are well before Slaves arrived from Ukraine. :coffee:

[Insuperable]

It is I2a.

[Drawing-slim]

It is EV-13.

I agree that E-V13 have the most Illyrian blood running through their veins today but but as a line I don't think it can be ruled out that I2a isn't Illyrian.

[Pjeter Pan]

wrong I2A2 is proven to be slavic whats with this yugo propaganda
So the Albanians that have that ydna are Slavs? There's a good chance you have it too. BTW why haven't you taken 23andme yet?

[Insuperable]

I agree that E-V13 have the most Illyrian blood running through their veins today but but as a line I don't think it can be ruled out that I2a isn't Illyrian.

It is J2a.

[Guapo]

:laugh: