The genetic diversity of Northern Italy

[Adamastor]

Why such a small region has such a huge genetic variation? Does it mean it's less stable genetically for the last centuries, right?

https://i.imgur.com/uSXIRAr.png

In this PCA we can see that some Northern Italians are closer to Tuscans, others to Iberians and others to French.

Q, S, R, M, P (parts of Veneto, Friuli and Trento) would probably be closer to Tyroleans if they were included in the PCA, Austrian Tyroleans are probably the closest living population to what Austrians were before Slavic-admixture.

I have some Austrian Tyrolean kits and they are considerably less eastern-shifted than average Austrians, somewhat intermediary between Veneto and SW Germany.

[PaleoEuropean]

Tuscany is practically Northern Italy though.

[Adamastor]

Tuscany is practically Northern Italy though.

Tuscany is Central Italy. Even Emilia-Romagna is more of an intermediary region than Northern Italy proper.

[PaleoEuropean]

They are on the fringes of the North, only Southern Tuscany is truly Central Italian.

https://i.imgur.com/SWyl0kA.jpg

[Adamastor]

They are on the fringes of the North, only Southern Tuscany is truly Central Italian.

https://i.imgur.com/SWyl0kA.jpg

Northern Italy = Lombardy, Liguria, Aosta Valley, Piedmont, Italian speaking Switzerland (NW Italy) + Veneto, Trentino-Alto Adige, Friuli (NE Italy). Emilia-Romagna is more an intermediary region between NE Italy, NW Italy and Tuscany.

[HungryLion]

They are not same ppl, well they couldn't talk before language modernization/standardization..

[Carlito's Way]

my relative is around M
hes my grandmother's relative
100% Northeastern Italian, all documented as well

[Adamastor]

my relative is around M
hes my grandmother's relative
100% Northeastern Italian, all documented as well

Many Northern Italians are considerably more northern shifted than that old Bergamo sample used in GEDmatch calculators and spammed over and over again by trolls in anthroforums.

[Carlito's Way]

Many Northern Italians are considerably more northern shifted than that old Bergamo sample used in GEDmatch calculators and spammed over and over again by trolls in anthroforums.

is that Bergamo sample 100% Bergamo? that sample is probably not even fully northern italian at all
i dont trust these companies when it comes to northern italians

[Alenka]

I wonder where do the Southern French plot?

[Avgvstvs]

Northern Italy = Lombardy, Liguria, Aosta Valley, Piedmont, Italian speaking Switzerland (NW Italy) + Veneto, Trentino-Alto Adige, Friuli (NE Italy). Emilia-Romagna is more an intermediary region between NE Italy, NW Italy and Tuscany.Emilia Romagna was and is always considered Northern Italy.

Inviato dal mio RNE-L01 utilizzando Tapatalk

[dududud]

I'm between O and S.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Why such a small region has such a huge genetic variation? Does it mean it's less stable genetically for the last centuries, right?

https://i.imgur.com/uSXIRAr.png

In this PCA we can see that some Northern Italians are closer to Tuscans, others to Iberians and others to French.

Q, S, R, M, P (parts of Veneto, Friuli and Trento) would probably be closer to Tyroleans if they were included in the PCA, Austrian Tyroleans are probably the closest living population to what Austrians were before Slavic-admixture.

I have some Austrian Tyrolean kits and they are considerably less eastern-shifted than average Austrians, somewhat intermediary between Veneto and SW Germany.
It's just differences in migration period settling(as well as Celts from pre-Roman Republic), as well as differences in where Romans or other Italians settled. Mediolanum(Milan) used to be the capital of the Roman Empire for a really long time, so more Italians from the central/south would've settled there than Piedmont or Veneto.

It's surprising that the only Italian state named after a Germanic people has less Germanic admixture than the others. Even Tuscans have about the same amount of Germanic admixture as Bergamo Italians in models I've tried, they just have more southern/Roman. I would be curious to see results from Pavia.

Also, Slavic admixture in Austria likely came from the same migration period Slavs that settled in East Germany, Bavaria, Slovenia, Bohemia, etc. and not from later Austrian Empire migration, so it was probably a really long time ago when Austrians were like Tyrolians. Tyrolians(even people from Veneto do, Lombards have none) still have around 5% Slavic admixture, but that's nothing compared to Austria's 25-35%.

Many Northern Italians are considerably more northern shifted than that old Bergamo sample used in GEDmatch calculators and spammed over and over again by trolls in anthroforums.
Why would that be trolling though? It was the only region available from North Italy in academic papers until 2018. Genetic researchers just got unlucky that they happened to pick a spot where the most native North Italians(well, native after Roman Empire, would've been Basque-Iberian like before then), it was reasonable to assume N. Italians(except for Alpine regions and Aosta) would be pretty similar to eachother.

I wonder where do the Southern French plot?
Here's a K15 PCA with South French, seems to be between central French(who cluster around the French average) and Catalonians.

https://image.ibb.co/eFQ4aQ/mysterious.png

[Adamastor]

Also, Slavic admixture in Austria likely came from the same migration period Slavs that settled in East Germany, Bavaria, Slovenia, Bohemia, etc. and not from later Austrian Empire migration, so it was probably a really long time ago when Austrians were like Tyrolians. Tyrolians(even people from Veneto do, Lombards have none) still have around 5% Slavic admixture, but that's nothing compared to Austria's 25-35%.


Well, Southwestern Germans are considerably less Slavic admixed than Austrians. They are actually quite ''western'' considering their geographical position. Likely they absorbed only small quantities of Slavic blood. Tyroleans descend from Bavarians and it's clear that both have very small Slavic admixture considering where they plot on PCAs.
I have some Austrian Tyroleans, South Tyroleans and Trento Italians ('Italian Tyroleans') kits and they are considerably closer to the French and NW Europeans than to Slavic speaking groups.

I'd like to see results of Ladins from Trentino and Romansch people from Switzerland, since they are probably the closest living populations of pre-Roman and pre-Germanic Alps. Likely they would come as a mix of 'Rhaetian' and 'Celtic'.


Why would that be trolling though? It was the only region available from North Italy in academic papers until 2018. Genetic researchers just got unlucky that they happened to pick a spot where the most native North Italians(well, native after Roman Empire, would've been Basque-Iberian like before then), it was reasonable to assume N. Italians(except for Alpine regions and Aosta) would be pretty similar to eachother.

Well, things turned out in a way that the Bergamo sample isn't representative for all North Italy as has been spammed here by some people. The region seems to be even more varied than South Italy, with people having very different results even from village to village.

For anyone who was used with Northern Italians, it was very unlikely that people like Venetians, Friulans and Italian Tyroleans ('Trentino') were more 'southern' than Iberians, that couldn't make sense at all. For example, my grandmother has 100% of her origins in the province of Pordenone and she plots in between S and Q in the PCA. Closer to French and even West Germans than to Iberians. The differences in phenotype are also considerable.

[Tenma de Pegasus]

This means italians are pretty unstable and not represent a single ethnic group, but a lot of diverse european groups under italian flag and italian language.

Opposed to Italy, iberians are extremely homogeneous genetically, but culturally very unstable with a lot of political movements to promote confusion between them and brake the Peninsula.

[trebil]

Why such a small region has such a huge genetic variation? Does it mean it's less stable genetically for the last centuries, right?

https://i.imgur.com/uSXIRAr.png

In this PCA we can see that some Northern Italians are closer to Tuscans, others to Iberians and others to French.

Q, S, R, M, P (parts of Veneto, Friuli and Trento) would probably be closer to Tyroleans if they were included in the PCA, Austrian Tyroleans are probably the closest living population to what Austrians were before Slavic-admixture.

I have some Austrian Tyrolean kits and they are considerably less eastern-shifted than average Austrians, somewhat intermediary between Veneto and SW Germany.


The northward shift of the north Italians is exaggerated in that PCA, because those that go further north belong to French and German linguistic minorities of North Italy, they are not actually ethnic north Italians. Those who did that PCA did a bit of make-up by choosing Valdostans and Cimbrians and passing them off as north Italians.

Bellinzona is Switzerland. Conco and Asiago are Cimbrian. Those from Cuneo Alps belong to the Occitan language minority.

The majority of northern Italians live in the Po Valley and are much closer to the Tuscans than to the French.

[Token]

Well, Southwestern Germans are considerably less Slavic admixed than Austrians. They are actually quite ''western'' considering their geographical position. Likely they absorbed only small quantities of Slavic blood. Tyroleans descend from Bavarians and it's clear that both have very small Slavic admixture considering where they plot on PCAs.
I have some Austrian Tyroleans, South Tyroleans and Trento Italians ('Italian Tyroleans') kits and they are considerably closer to the French and NW Europeans than to Slavic speaking groups.

I'd like to see results of Ladins from Trentino and Romansch people from Switzerland, since they are probably the closest living populations of pre-Roman and pre-Germanic Alps. Likely they would come as a mix of 'Rhaetian' and 'Celtic'.
We have academic samples from Rhaeto-Romance speakers from the city of Illegio, Udine. They look like a two-way mixture between Central European Beakers and Neolithic farmers i.e like Old Italic samples, certainly a population relict probably how North Italians looked like before Roman, Germanic and Celtic introgessions.

[Leto]

They are not same ppl, well they couldn't talk before language modernization/standardization..
Aren't there many Southern Italians in Northern Italy? I've read/heard it multiple times.

[savvas]

Why such a small region has such a huge genetic variation? Does it mean it's less stable genetically for the last centuries, right?

https://i.imgur.com/uSXIRAr.png

In this PCA we can see that some Northern Italians are closer to Tuscans, others to Iberians and others to French.

Q, S, R, M, P (parts of Veneto, Friuli and Trento) would probably be closer to Tyroleans if they were included in the PCA, Austrian Tyroleans are probably the closest living population to what Austrians were before Slavic-admixture.

I have some Austrian Tyrolean kits and they are considerably less eastern-shifted than average Austrians, somewhat intermediary between Veneto and SW Germany.

Updated with Aosta and Valtellina:

https://i.imgur.com/iLWoFhF.png

[trebil]

these PCAs are more accurate imho and were made by a north Italian

https://ilsizzi.files.wordpress.com/2019/03/pca-regioni.png

https://ilsizzi.files.wordpress.com/2019/03/pca-regioni-medie.png

https://ilsizzi.files.wordpress.com/2019/03/cluster-pcoa-individui-eigenvalue.png

https://ilsizzi.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/sardegna.jpg

https://ilsizzi.files.wordpress.com/2019/03/pca-k15.png

https://ilsizzi.files.wordpress.com/2018/05/compprinc.jpg

[trebil]

Updated with Aosta and Valtellina:

https://i.imgur.com/iLWoFhF.png

Aostans speak a French-like language as native language. You are also using people belonging to ethnic minorities in the north of Italy. Who's next? The German-speaking South Tyroleans and are you going to pretend that they are North Italian?

[savvas]

We have academic samples from Rhaeto-Romance speakers from the city of Illegio, Udine. They look like a two-way mixture between Central European Beakers and Neolithic farmers i.e like Old Italic samples, certainly a population relict probably how North Italians looked like before Roman, Germanic and Celtic introgessions.

Would they plot near Basques on this map? Do you think it's plausible what the PCA from the study ''Genetic characterization of northeastern Italian population isolates in the context of broader European genetic diversity'' shows, Friulans from Sauris and Resia plotting near Basques, and those from Erto sitting in between Sardinians and Basques?

https://i.imgur.com/wlUrqMJ.jpg

[savvas]

Aostans speak a French-like language as native language. You are also using people belonging to ethnic minorities in the north of Italy. Who's next? The German-speaking South Tyroleans and are you going to pretend that they are North Italian?

Sure they are. Are you high or something? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Italy

[Leto]

Aostans speak a French-like language as native language. You are also using people belonging to ethnic minorities in the north of Italy. Who's next? The German-speaking South Tyroleans and are you going to pretend that they are North Italian?
So Trentino and Piedmont are the most Northern-shifted Italians?

[trebil]

Sure they are. Are you high or something? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Italy

I start to think that you are not a north Italian but you are just a troll. North Italians are not self haters like you and usually don't consider French-speaking Valdostans as north Italians.

[Jana]

is that Bergamo sample 100% Bergamo? that sample is probably not even fully northern italian at all
i dont trust these companies when it comes to northern italians

Not true. There is fully North Italian member from Bergamo who is pretty Nordic and he plots just like Bergamo average more or less.
It is very good middle ground for all of North Italy, Bergamo is in middle of Padania and majority of North Italians are Padanians which isn't any more northern than Bergamo samples.

Alpine fringe and less populated regions are more north, but I don't see why would they be taken as benchmark for NI when they are fringes of it.

[Jana]

Sure they are. Are you high or something? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Italy

They are not North Italians ethnically.

[trebil]

So Trentino and Piedmont are the most Northern-shifted Italians?

The most Northern-shifted Italians are those from the Alps and this also coincides with the presence of linguistic minorities.

Franco-Provençal and Occitan in the north-western Alps, German (and a lesser extent Slavic) in the north-eastern Alps.

[Jana]

So Trentino and Piedmont are the most Northern-shifted Italians?

Veneto and Friuli can be quite northern shifted, but their numbers are small compared to heavy neolithic Padanians.

[trebil]

Aren't there many Southern Italians in Northern Italy? I've read/heard it multiple times.

it is true, there are many Southern Italians in northern Italy but also in central Italy, in short, you find Southern Italians everywhere in Italy.

[savvas]

They are not North Italians ethnically.

They are German, but they live in Northern Italy. Besides, I don't see a ''North Italian'' ethnicity in that map, I see a cline. I see Udinesi who appear to be closer to French than to fellow North Italian Romagnoli (not in the map, but they should be more southern-shifted than Tuscans).

[Jana]

They are German, but they live in Northern Italy. Besides, I don't see a ''North Italian'' ethnicity in that map, I see a cline. I see Udinesi who appear to be closer to French than to fellow North Italian Romagnoli (not in the map, but they should be more southern-shifted than Tuscans).

Udinesi are some of most northern shifted Italians, and that is easy to see in their phenotypes. I have been there and they didn't look southern European

[Token]

Would they plot near Basques on this map? Do you think it's plausible what the PCA from the study ''Genetic characterization of northeastern Italian population isolates in the context of broader European genetic diversity'' shows, Friulans from Sauris and Resia plotting near Basques, and those from Erto sitting in between Sardinians and Basques?

Yep, they sit near Basques. These isolates are probably representatives of the native population of Northern Italy.

[trebil]

Udinesi are some of most northern shifted Italians, and that is easy to see in their phenotypes. I have been there and they didn't look southern European

Agreed, Furlans (Udinesi) and Trentini in my experience, but also Udinesi and Trentini have some southern European looking people as there are central European looking also in other parts of Italy.

[Dick]

Udinesi are some of most northern shifted Italians, and that is easy to see in their phenotypes. I have been there and they didn't look southern European

What’s up with Ancestrydna’s genetic community putting NE italians with southwest slavs

[Token]

Udinesi are some of most northern shifted Italians, and that is easy to see in their phenotypes. I have been there and they didn't look southern European

Udine got relatively recent Slovenian influence and Veneto was clearly heavily affected by Germanic migrations, more so than any other region of Northern Italy (i'm excluding South Tyrol here, which is evidently not-Italian). We just need to look how many Germanic minorities, most probable relicts from Langobardia Major, still live in the region.

[savvas]

Yep, they sit near Basques. These isolates are probably representatives of the native population of Northern Italy.

This famous Italian alpinist, Mauro Corona, is a native of Erto (the village plotting between Basques and Sardinians):

https://chi-e.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/mauro-corona.jpg
https://www.caffeinamagazine.it/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/maur.jpg
http://www.violettanet.it/poesiealtro_autori/grafica/CORONA_GIOVANE.jpg
https://maurocorona.it/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/young_mauro.jpg

[Token]

This famous Italian alpinist, Mauro Corona, is a native of Erto (the village plotting between Basques and Sardinians):

https://chi-e.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/mauro-corona.jpg

Bronze Age Italian look.

[Adamastor]

What’s up with Ancestrydna’s genetic community putting NE italians with southwest slavs

Northeastern Italians are more similar to French and Tyroleans than to any Slavs imo. Look at the PCA, there's a considerable gap with Slavic speaking groups.

Also, regarding some butthurt guys here, it's pretty clear that there's no 'North Italian' ethnicity, but a cline. If people from Italian Tyrol, Pordenone and Udine cluster like they do I don't know why we shouldn't include Aostans and South Tyroleans as ''Northern Italians''. Someone from South Tyrol is genetically and culturally closer to someone from Trento than Trento people are even to people from Bergamo.

There's no ''North Italian'' ethnicity, but many ethnic groups in Northern Italy, it should be clear by now.

[Adamastor]

Aostans speak a French-like language as native language. You are also using people belonging to ethnic minorities in the north of Italy. Who's next? The German-speaking South Tyroleans and are you going to pretend that they are North Italian?

And? Gallo-Italic languages are closer to French than to Tuscan... All of ''Trentino'' (the modern name for Italian Tyrol) was once Rhaeto-Romance speaking like Friuli...
There's no way to say Aostans are not Northern Italians only because you don't want them to be. ''Northern Italian'' isn't a single ethnicity.

[trebil]

This famous Italian alpinist, Mauro Corona, is a native of Erto (the village plotting between Basques and Sardinians):

https://chi-e.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/mauro-corona.jpg
https://www.caffeinamagazine.it/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/maur.jpg
http://www.violettanet.it/poesiealtro_autori/grafica/CORONA_GIOVANE.jpg
https://maurocorona.it/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/young_mauro.jpg

Ok, so it's true, savvas you are not a north Italian.

Mauro Corona is of recent Sardinian descent. He is not fully northern Italian as it's well known in Italy.

Ieri la solidarietà di Mauro Corona, il grande scrittore trentino, che rivendica con orgoglio le sue antiche origini sarde, di quegli antenati giunti dall’Isola per fare i pastori nelle Alpi.

https://sardegna.admaioramedia.it/un-popolo-che-combatte-chi-non-e-pastore-oggi-non-e-sardo-il-giardiniere/

[Dick]

Northeastern Italians are more similar to French and Tyroleans than to any Slavs imo. Look at the PCA, there's a considerable gap with Slavic speaking groups.

Also, regarding some butthurt guys here, it's pretty clear that there's no 'North Italian' ethnicity, but a cline. If people from Italian Tyrol, Pordenone and Udine cluster like they do I don't know why we shouldn't include Aostans and South Tyroleans as ''Northern Italians''. Someone from South Tyrol is genetically and culturally closer to someone from Trento than Trento people are even to people from Bergamo.

There's no ''North Italian'' ethnicity, but many ethnic groups in Northern Italy, it should be clear by now.

Ok. Its based on IBD sharing. This is before their update I don’t get west Europe anymore but same genetic community




https://i.imgur.com/goAzK19.jpg


https://i.imgur.com/jXhEndY.jpg

[Token]

Bergamo is actually a pretty good representative of Northern Italy. Except for the eastern and western fringes of the region, Venetians and Piedmontese tends to plot pretty close to the Bergamo average.

[Adamastor]

The northward shift of the north Italians is exaggerated in that PCA, because those that go further north belong to French and German linguistic minorities of North Italy, they are not actually ethnic north Italians. Those who did that PCA did a bit of make-up by choosing Valdostans and Cimbrians and passing them off as north Italians.

Bellinzona is Switzerland. Conco and Asiago are Cimbrian. Those from Cuneo Alps belong to the Occitan language minority.

The majority of northern Italians live in the Po Valley and are much closer to the Tuscans than to the French.

Actually the most north-shifted individual in this PCA is someone from Trento. I don't know about Cimbrians or ''French speaking'' people living in Trento.

[Token]

Ok. Its based on IBD sharing. This is before their update I don’t get west Europe anymore but same genetic community

https://i.imgur.com/goAzK19.jpg
High IBD sharing is due to recent Slovenian admixture in Northeastern Italy, that's probably one of the last significant admixture events in the region.

[Ibericus]

We have academic samples from Rhaeto-Romance speakers from the city of Illegio, Udine. They look like a two-way mixture between Central European Beakers and Neolithic farmers i.e like Old Italic samples, certainly a population relict probably how North Italians looked like before Roman, Germanic and Celtic introgessions.

where is the dataset or the study you refer to ?

[Adamastor]

High IBD sharing is due to recent Slovenian admixture in Northeastern Italy, that's probably one of the last significant admixture events in the region.

Or shared pre-Slavic Indo-European ancestry between Slovenians, Croats and Northeastern Italians.

I have Friulan kits here plotting closer to French and even Germans than to any Slavs.

What is clear by now is the fact there is a 'mainstream' Padanian cluster around the Po Valley more or less similar to Iberians, then you have many different groups in Northern Italy which can go from almost French or Tyrolean-like to Tuscan-like.

As a rule, people from Pordenone, Italian Tyrol (Trentino), Udine, Gorizia, parts of Veneto are considerably northern-shifted. The Trento sample in the PCA I posted is closer to South Tyroleans and even Austrian Tyroleans (they are not on this PCA) than even to people from Emilia-Romagna.
What makes sense since the county of Tyrol as a trilingual entity (German, Ladin/Rhaeto-Romance and Italic dialects) is a genetic and cultural reality.

[Token]

Or shared pre-Slavic Indo-European ancestry between Slovenians, Croats and Northeastern Italians.

I have Friulan kits here plotting closer to French and even Germans than to any Slavs.

What is clear by now is the fact there is a 'mainstream' Padanian cluster around the Po Valley more or less similar to Iberians, than you have many different groups in Northern Italy which can go from almost French or Tyrolean-like to Tuscan-like.

As a rule, people from Pordenone, Italian Tyrol (Trentino), Udine, Gorizia, parts of Veneto are considerably northern-shifted. The Trento sample in the PCA I posted is closer to South Tyroleans and even Austrian Tyroleans (they are not on this PCA) than even to people from Emilia-Romagna.

What makes sense since the county of Tyrol is a genetic and cultural reality.
Not shared Pre-Indo-European ancestry because any IBD sharing coming from this era would be completely drowned by the 4000 years gap. Trento is something like Friuli - something borderline and heavily affected by quite recent movements of people from outside the Italian border.

[Adamastor]

Not shared Pre-Indo-European ancestry because any IBD sharing coming from this era would be completely drowned by the 4000 years gap. Trento is something like Friuli - something borderline and heavily affected by quite recent movements of people from outside the Italian border.

Well, then most parts of Northern Italy outside of Po Valley are more or less 'borderline'. That's exactly what I'm saying anyway, there's no single 'North Italian' ethnicity and genetic profile when you have so many exceptions to the so called 'average'.

Most people from Trento were probably Ladin-speaking some centuries ago, before they were 'venetianized' and 'lombardized'. There's a 'Rhaeto-Romance' similarity between Friulans and Tyroleans from Italy (''Trentino''). Both are closer to other Alpine populations in Austria, Switzerland and France than to Tuscans, it should be obvious.

[Adamastor]

I don't know why it's such a big deal. We know, for example, that Alpine Austrians (Tyroleans) are considerably different genetically from mainstream Austrians .

It seems there's an 'Alpine' cluster including Alpine populations of Italy, Switzerland, France and Austria.

[savvas]

Ok, so it's true, savvas you are not a north Italian.

Mauro Corona is of recent Sardinian descent. He is not fully northern Italian as it's well known in Italy.

Ieri la solidarietà di Mauro Corona, il grande scrittore trentino, che rivendica con orgoglio le sue antiche origini sarde, di quegli antenati giunti dall’Isola per fare i pastori nelle Alpi.

https://sardegna.admaioramedia.it/un-popolo-che-combatte-chi-non-e-pastore-oggi-non-e-sardo-il-giardiniere/

Corona is the most common surname in Erto. His mother's surname, Filippin, is the second most common surname in Erto. And Ertani plot halfway between Sardinians and Basques, so it looks like the whole community shares this Sardinian admixture. When did this immigration from Sardinia happen? There's no mention of that in the study, nor on Wiki.

[dududud]

Ok, so it's true, savvas you are not a north Italian.

Mauro Corona is of recent Sardinian descent. He is not fully northern Italian as it's well known in Italy.

Ieri la solidarietà di Mauro Corona, il grande scrittore trentino, che rivendica con orgoglio le sue antiche origini sarde, di quegli antenati giunti dall’Isola per fare i pastori nelle Alpi.

https://sardegna.admaioramedia.it/un-popolo-che-combatte-chi-non-e-pastore-oggi-non-e-sardo-il-giardiniere/

Looks like a Moorish, not a real Sardo. Neither a North Italians.

[MinervaItalica]

Aostans speak a French-like language as native language. You are also using people belonging to ethnic minorities in the north of Italy. Who's next? The German-speaking South Tyroleans and are you going to pretend that they are North Italian?

Very few Italians in Aosta Valley speak French, they perhaps speak Franco Provencal. Also it seems wrong to say that the majority of "Aostans" speak FP as native.

Native languages:

italiano: 71,50%
francoprovenzale: 16,20%
francese: 0,99%

"La stragrande maggioranza degli intervistati ha indicato l'italiano come lingua materna. Intervistato sulle proprie conoscenze linguistiche, il 96,01% ha dichiarato di conoscere l'italiano, il 75,41% di conoscere il francese, il 55,77% il patois valdostano e il 50,53% le tre lingue."

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valle_d%27Aosta#Lingue_e_dialetti


This means italians are pretty unstable and not represent a single ethnic group, but a lot of diverse european groups under italian flag and italian language.

Opposed to Italy, iberians are extremely homogeneous genetically, but culturally very unstable with a lot of political movements to promote confusion between them and brake the Peninsula.

:picard1:

Ethnicities are not based upon genetics in this world but are based on culture. Italians are a single ethnic group plus foreigner minorities.

[Gospon.Fulir]

Yeah , i thought before there is only difference between south and north but seems that north italians are alao diference between each other..
Venetians and especially Friulans looks like Baltic and early slavic admixtured , and they score other north italians on 10 or more distance according to k13 eurogenes which is veey much distance ...

The western part of north italy seems to be french /north spanish shifted ...

[Gospon.Fulir]

Yeah , i thought before there is only difference between south and north but seems that north italians are also diference between each other..
Venetians and especially Friulans looks like Baltic and early slavic admixtured , and their nearest distance is 10 according to k13 eurogenes which is veey much distance ...

The western part of north italy seems to be french /north spanish shifted ...

And sorry guys for 2 same posts , first time i using this and still searching for delete option ��

[Adamastor]

Italians are a single ethnic group plus foreigner minorities.

More like a nationality, no? My great-great-grandfather from Trento had minimal cultural differences with my great-great-grandmother from German-speaking South Tyrol. And my great-grandfather (their son) had minimal differences with my great-grandmother from Friuli. Just to give an example.

Do you think these people are the same ethnicity as Calabrians or even Umbrians and Tuscans? lol

[guezet]

And? Gallo-Italic languages are closer to French than to Tuscan... All of ''Trentino'' (the modern name for Italian Tyrol) was once Rhaeto-Romance speaking like Friuli...
There's no way to say Aostans are not Northern Italians only because you don't want them to be. ''Northern Italian'' isn't a single ethnicity.

Do these linguistic proximities really mean something? I have great doubts that a French can better understand the Gallo-Italic dialects than Italian/Tuscan. Once I heard an old man speak Gallo-Italic and I didn't understand anything.



Well, then most parts of Northern Italy outside of Po Valley are more or less 'borderline'. That's exactly what I'm saying anyway, there's no single 'North Italian' ethnicity and genetic profile when you have so many exceptions to the so called 'average'.

Most people from Trento were probably Ladin-speaking some centuries ago, before they were 'venetianized' and 'lombardized'. There's a 'Rhaeto-Romance' similarity between Friulans and Tyroleans from Italy (''Trentino''). Both are closer to other Alpine populations in Austria, Switzerland and France than to Tuscans, it should be obvious.


Even the Italian Alps seem closer to the rest of Italy than to central Europe.


https://image.ibb.co/kJVR30/EURO-PCA.jpg

[guezet]

More like a nationality, no? My great-great-grandfather from Trento had minimal cultural differences with my great-great-grandmother from German-speaking South Tyrol. And my great-grandfather (their son) had minimal differences with my great-grandmother from Friuli. Just to give an example.


What is really funny is a South American like you with only a great-great-grandfather of Italian origin trying to explain to an Italian what Italians are.

[MinervaItalica]

More like a nationality, no?

Do you think these people are the same ethnicity as Calabrians or even Umbrians? lol

Not really. French are more of a nationality.

Italians indentify with a common culture, language, history, religion, food etc...

It's not that "Umbrians" for example are different from other Italians, they have Italian common culture plus their minimal regional differences like many other nations in Europe. Regions from North Germany have their own regional culture while Southern Germany regions have their own, same for France and other medium/large countries in Europe.

German minority from North Italy are a different story. They are Italians by nationality not ethnically ofc (unless they are italianized since generations).

[Adamastor]

Do these linguistic proximities really mean something? I have great doubts that a French can better understand the Gallo-Italic dialects than Italian/Tuscan. Once I heard an old man speak Gallo-Italic and I didn't understand anything.





Even the Italian Alps seem closer to the rest of Italy than to central Europe.


https://image.ibb.co/kJVR30/EURO-PCA.jpg

This is an old PCA that is constantly spammed here too, but seems to be atypical and lacking samples. The PCA I shared is much more complete and closer to reality.


About languages, I don't know if an isolated individual being able to understand something or not should be the measure. I mean, French itself is heavily different from native Southern French languages, let alone from Gallo-Italic languages.

[Adamastor]

Yes, Italians indentify with a common culture, language, history, religion, food etc...

It's not that "Umbrians" for example are different from other Italians, they have Italian common culture plus their minimal regional differences like many other nations in Europe. Regions from North Germany have their own regional culture while Southern Germany regions have their own, same for France and other medium/large countries in Europe.

German minority from North Italy are a different story. They are Italians by nationality.

Yeah, but the difference between someone from Trento and someone from Sicily isn't ''minimal'' even from a cultural POV.
Do you deny Trento or even parts of Veneto are more similar to South Tyroleans than to Sicilians?

[guezet]

This is an old PCA that is constantly spammed here too, but seems to be atypical and lacking samples. The PCA I shared is much more complete and closer to reality.

The image you shared is not even a PCA to begin with.

[Adamastor]

What is really funny is a South American like you with only a great-great-grandfather of Italian origin trying to explain to an Italian what Italians are.

LOL

I have 12 ''Italian'' great-great-grandparents. What the fuck are you trying to say, idiot.

[guezet]

I have 12 ''Italian'' great-great-grandparents.

This the result, I suppose

http://www.cinemaqui.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/o-abra%C3%A7o-da-serpente-destaque.jpg

[savvas]

Do these linguistic proximities really mean something? I have great doubts that a French can better understand the Gallo-Italic dialects than Italian/Tuscan. Once I heard an old man speak Gallo-Italic and I didn't understand anything.





Even the Italian Alps seem closer to the rest of Italy than to central Europe.


https://image.ibb.co/kJVR30/EURO-PCA.jpg

I'm pretty confident that you should understand Piedmontese as an Occitan speaker:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zofiWgTSGR0

And what about the language of my area, Western Emilia? We're genetically closer to Tuscans than to southern French, I think, but Tuscans can't understand our language. Can you?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVSHOw6_l4Y&list=PLrHPnnNQzCZvASuRBRWlL2d7KZmsOKc5_

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGECwl79Vk0&list=PLrHPnnNQzCZvASuRBRWlL2d7KZmsOKc5_&index=3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uv2Cw31ApHw

[MinervaItalica]

Yeah, but the difference between someone from Trento and someone from Sicily isn't ''minimal'' even from a cultural POV.
Do you deny Trento or even parts of Veneto are more similar to South Tyroleans than to Sicilians?

Alto Adige is mostly German and have nothing to do with Italians (except for Bolzano and southern parts). Trentino and Veneto are obviously Italian and thus close to other Italians.

As i said, Italians have a common culture plus regional differences like happens in many other countries in Europe. It's obvious that Northern Italian regions have their distinct minimal culture (like some exclusive dishes, folklores etc...) in addition to the Italian common culture but this is not enough to make Italians from the North different from the Southern ones.

[Adamastor]

This the result, I suppose

http://www.cinemaqui.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/o-abra%C3%A7o-da-serpente-destaque.jpg

I wonder why this forum always attract butthurt losers like you.

Did you took your pills today, bro?

[Adamastor]

South Tyroleans is mostly German and have nothing to do with Italians. Trentino and Veneto are obviously Italian and thus close to other Italians.

As i said, Italians have a common culture plus regional differences like happens in many other countries in Europe. It's obvious that Northern Italian regions have their distinct minimal culture (like some exclusive dishes, folklores etc...) in addition to the Italian common culture but this don't make Italians from the North different from the Southern ones.

Just answer my question, it's simple. Who's culturally closer to Trento: South Tyroleans or Sicilians?

[Leto]

South Tyroleans is mostly German and have nothing to do with Italians. Trentino and Veneto are obviously Italian and thus close to other Italians.

As i said, Italians have a common culture plus regional differences like happens in many other countries in Europe. It's obvious that Northern Italian regions have their distinct minimal culture (like some exclusive dishes, folklores etc...) in addition to the Italian common culture but this don't make Italians from the North different from the Southern ones.
That might be the legacy of Sikeliot's continuous propaganda over many years.

[MinervaItalica]

Just answer my question, it's simple. Who's culturally closer to Trento: South Tyroleans or Sicilians?

Italians from Trento are closer to Sicilians culturally. Seems pretty obvious. ST are Germans.

[Adamastor]

Italians from Trento are closer to Sicilians culturally. Seems pretty obvious. ST are Germans.

hahahaha


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvjxamrYcbE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nN1En_T99_Y

You should convince them first. lol

[XenophobicPrussian]

Ok, so it's true, savvas you are not a north Italian.

Mauro Corona is of recent Sardinian descent. He is not fully northern Italian as it's well known in Italy.

Ieri la solidarietà di Mauro Corona, il grande scrittore trentino, che rivendica con orgoglio le sue antiche origini sarde, di quegli antenati giunti dall’Isola per fare i pastori nelle Alpi.

https://sardegna.admaioramedia.it/un-popolo-che-combatte-chi-non-e-pastore-oggi-non-e-sardo-il-giardiniere/
I thought he was way too southern shifted to be clustering between Basques and Sardinians.

Here are more people from Erto:

http://www.presidente.regione.fvg.it/contenuti/Fotografie/75140_1.jpg
(except third guy)

https://creativemedia3-rai-it.akamaized.net/infocdn/T3_News_Regioni/T3_Veneto/10212867_1.jpg

https://giornalenordest.it/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Mail17Tx002701-620x330.jpg

https://www.gelestatic.it/thimg/PR__hQoD9ZGDe0GVDcLjgxFLimg=/960x540/smart/https%3A//messaggeroveneto.gelocal.it/image/contentid/policy%3A1.15476751%3A1542350580/image/image.jpg%3Ff%3Ddetail_558%26h%3D720%26w%3D1280%26 %24p%24f%24h%24w%3Dd5eb06a



https://scontent-frx5-1.cdninstagram.com/vp/bc8671a3614fbf9fb7f0b4a110350d39/5D7D4030/t51.2885-15/e15/11263470_1597685053813174_623948270_n.jpg?_nc_ht=s content-frx5-1.cdninstagram.com&se=8

https://www.gelestatic.it/thimg/8ghLSVMa204tsbnUSiIOT-fhSo0=/960x540/smart/https%3A//messaggeroveneto.gelocal.it/image/contentid/policy%3A1.14076303%3A1542393582/image/image.jpg%3Ff%3Ddetail_558%26h%3D720%26w%3D1280%26 %24p%24f%24h%24w%3Dd5eb06a

https://www.gelestatic.it/thimg/A6KkXc4inDJWba4H2LCOlNxcVpk=/960x530/smart/http%3A//messaggeroveneto.gelocal.it/image/contentid/policy%3A1.14636724%3A1542447185/image/image.jpg%3Ff%3Ddetail_558%26h%3D530%26w%3D960%26% 24p%24f%24h%24w%3Ddab5dab

https://www.gelestatic.it/thimg/D7VJHjHovVTjWBLfZnFa0WhCiNs=/960x540/smart/https%3A//messaggeroveneto.gelocal.it/image/contentid/policy%3A1.13460765%3A1542314333/image/image.jpg%3Ff%3Ddetail_558%26h%3D720%26w%3D1280%26 %24p%24f%24h%24w%3Dd5eb06a

http://www.presidente.regione.fvg.it/contenuti/Fotografie/75516_erto%20e%20casso.png
(again, except the bald guy in the dark suit)

https://www.thelocal.it/userdata/images/article/c14d38b77fd44b19b6fcec84a2f763766cfcf72831bb1e41a9 743deb33107f5a.jpg

[MinervaItalica]

hahahaha

You should convince them first. lol

Did i already say that regions have their exclusive folklore? :confused:

[Adamastor]

Those are German songs. Foreigner culture.

No, they are not, stop lying. They are Trento and Trentino traditional folk songs. And it's quite similar to some others who are still sung by Venetians and Friulans.

Actually 'Trentino' is a recent invention, the true name is Tyrol, as a trilingual cultural reality.

[trebil]

Italians from Trento are closer to Sicilians culturally. Seems pretty obvious. ST are Germans.

This thread is ridiculous but you always overdo in the opposite direction. This is absolutely not true. The Trentino people are obviously Italian but they have much in common culturally with the Tyroleans, similar recipes, same territory, same Tyrolean traditions. This is something that if you said in real life in a conversation between real Italians everyone would start to laugh, even the Sicilians themselves who are not ashamed to have different traditions from Trentino.

[Token]

Well, then most parts of Northern Italy outside of Po Valley are more or less 'borderline'. That's exactly what I'm saying anyway, there's no single 'North Italian' ethnicity and genetic profile when you have so many exceptions to the so called 'average'.

Most people from Trento were probably Ladin-speaking some centuries ago, before they were 'venetianized' and 'lombardized'. There's a 'Rhaeto-Romance' similarity between Friulans and Tyroleans from Italy (''Trentino''). Both are closer to other Alpine populations in Austria, Switzerland and France than to Tuscans, it should be obvious.

As others pointed out, except for really extreme outliers (Cimbrians, Tyrolese, Slovenian minorities...), most Alpine Italians from east to west are still closer to Lombards and Tuscans than to Austrians and Swiss.

[Token]

Italians from Trento are closer to Sicilians culturally. Seems pretty obvious. ST are Germans.

Not culturally, not genetically and not linguistically. Sicilians and North Italians in general are completely different entities united by an artificial political union.

[Adamastor]

This thread is ridiculous but you always overdo n the opposite direction. This is absolutely not true. The Trentino people are obviously Italian but they have much in common culturally with the Tyroleans, similar recipes, same territory, same Tyrolean traditions. This is something that if you said in real life in a conversation between real Italians everyone would start to laugh in your face, even the Sicilians themselves who are not ashamed to have different traditions from Trentino.

The thread is not ridiculous, but you're right in this point. Anyway, 'Trentino' is a recent invention and people from Trento identified as Tyroleans until very recently. Many still identify as such.

[Avgvstvs]

Italians from Trento are closer to Sicilians culturally. Seems pretty obvious. ST are Germans.No way..... Sicilians have different history, dialects, traditions, food and live far far away from Trentino.... In my opinion it would make more sense saying Trentini are closer to their neighbors southern Tyrolean.

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[MinervaItalica]

This thread is ridiculous but you always overdo n the opposite direction. This is absolutely not true. The Trentino people are obviously Italian but they have much in common culturally with the Tyroleans, similar recipes, same territory, same Tyrolean traditions. This is something that if you said in real life in a conversation between real Italians everyone would start to laugh in your face, even the Sicilians themselves who are not ashamed to have different traditions from Trentino.


No way..... Sicilians have different history, dialects, traditions, food and live far far away from Trentino.... In my opinion it would make more sense saying Trentini are closer to their neighbors southern Tyrolean.

Inviato dal mio RNE-L01 utilizzando Tapatalk

Why you don't read my previous comments? I already said that there are minimal regional differences about dishes and folklore but this doesn't make Italians from Northern Regions different from Italians from the South.

And i don't want to repeat myself 10000 times on this topic. Italians have a common culture with their regional differences like other states in Europe.

[MinervaItalica]

Not culturally, not genetically and not linguistically. Sicilians and North Italians in general are completely different entities united by an artificial political union.

Typical answer from a South American like you who knows nothing about Italy and Italians.

[Token]

Typical answer from a South American like you who knows nothing about Italy and Italians.

North and South Italians hate each other and you know it very well, there is absolutely no sense of unity between them. Take a look outside your internet nationalist bubble and see the reality dude, the world is not like how we want it to be.

[MinervaItalica]

North and South Italians hate each other and you know it very well, there is absolutely no sense of unity between them. Take a look outside your internet nationalist bubble and see the reality dude, the world is not like how we want it to be.

Perhaps is you who should get out from your internet stereotypical bubble about Italians or this biased genetic forum and get a trip to the country if you can ever afford one...

Just for you to know Italians holidays like the "Anniversario dell'Unità d'Italia" or the "Giornata dell'Unità Nazionale e delle Forze Armate" are celebrated in ALL Italy with people and military units coming from all Italy. This debunk your biased statement about "Italians hate each other"...

[savvas]

Typical answer from a South American like you who knows nothing about Italy and Italians.

Sarai esperto tu che scambi Trentini per Tedeschi (ma sei scemo? Tedesca una canzone che parla della luganega, in dialetto Trentino?)... Ma non ti rendi conto che hai ingenuamente dato ragione a Berenice? Ma quanto sei stupido porcoddio? Ma se non riesci a distinguere i Trentini dai Tedeschi vorrà dire qualcosa, o no? Ma ce la fai?

[MinervaItalica]

Sarai esperto tu che scambi Trentini per Tedeschi (ma sei scemo? Tedesca una canzone che parla della luganega, in dialetto Trentino?)... Ma non ti rendi conto che hai ingenuamente dato ragione a Berenice? Ma quanto sei stupido porcoddio? Ma se non riesci a distinguere i Trentini dai Tedeschi vorrà dire qualcosa, o no? Ma ce la fai?

Get out sock troll. You didn't understand what i said. I said South Tyroleans (ST) are Germans.

[Avgvstvs]

Perhaps is you who should get out from your internet stereotypical bubble about Italians or this biased genetic forum and get a trip to the country if you can ever afford one...

Just for you to know Italians holidays like the "Anniversario dell'Unità d'Italia" or the "Giornata dell'Unità Nazionale e delle Forze Armate" are celebrated in ALL Italy with people and military units coming from all Italy. This debunk your biased statement about "Italians hate each other"...Yes, but the fact that there are national holidays doesn't necessarily mean that Italians from far north are culturally similar to Italians from the far south

Inviato dal mio RNE-L01 utilizzando Tapatalk

[MinervaItalica]

Yes, but the fact that there are national holidays doesn't necessarily mean that Italians from far north are culturally similar to Italians from the far south

Inviato dal mio RNE-L01 utilizzando Tapatalk

They are. Italians have a common culture plus regional differences.

[XenophobicPrussian]

As others pointed out, except for really extreme outliers (Cimbrians, Tyrolese, Slovenian minorities...), most Alpine Italians from east to west are still closer to Lombards and Tuscans than to Austrians and Swiss.
I agree, but Piedmontese(from all regions, not just the Alpine regions) are indeed their own thing, along with Fruilians. Piedmontese are pretty much Iberians or atleast intermediary. Based on where Verona people plot, most Venetians are going to be Bergamo like, and of course same goes for Ligurians and Emilians. Piedmont only has 4 million people though, so yeah, the vast, vast majority of North Italians cluster with Bergamo.

[Adamastor]

North and South Italians hate each other and you know it very well, there is absolutely no sense of unity between them. Take a look outside your internet nationalist bubble and see the reality dude, the world is not like how we want it to be.

This trend is diminishing now that Italy is being invaded by Africans and Arabs, they have to unite for a single purpose of expelling these aliens. The last time I went to Italy I was surprised by how many ethnikks I saw even in small cities of Tuscany and Emilia-Romagna.

[dududud]

Not culturally, not genetically and not linguistically. Sicilians and North Italians in general are completely different entities united by an artificial political union.

"Italians" people doesn't exist, genetically speaking. They are four group, genetically differents : North Italy, Central, Southern and Sardinian cluster.

[Leto]

This trend is diminishing now that Italy is being invaded by Africans and Arabs, they have to unite for a single purpose of expelling these aliens. The last time I went to Italy I was surprised by how many ethnikks I saw even in small cities of Tuscany and Emilia-Romagna.
Matteo Salvini is doing that as we speak. One of the best politicians I've seen in modern times.

[Petalpusher]

I'm pretty confident that you should understand Piedmontese as an Occitan speaker:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zofiWgTSGR0


I did not understand a single word he said. Usually i can guess some parts from regular sentences in Italian (but probably still less than people would imagine) as in many other languages, in this video really not even one word. And i grew up in Isère (so not that far from NW Italy) but im not sure why we would be able to understand these dialects, there s only one language in France, north to south, east to west, just with relatively different accents and a few word/expression variants. Arpitan/Francoprovencal are long dead here.

The closest thing we have to a regional dialect would be that:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0DiCYpsJAc

cringe video of old dudes singing,babbling, and trying to teach diversity the language, but that's about it. All French would still understand it just fine.

[Adamastor]

I agree, but Piedmontese(from all regions, not just the Alpine regions) are indeed their own thing, along with Fruilians. Piedmontese are pretty much Iberians or atleast intermediary. Based on where Verona people plot, most Venetians are going to be Bergamo like, and of course same goes for Ligurians and Emilians. Piedmont only has 4 million people though, so yeah, the vast, vast majority of North Italians cluster with Bergamo.

Friulans are not Iberian-like. What are you drinking? Veneto has two regions: one closer to Bergamo and another one closer to Friuli.
Piedmontese cluster closer to Southwestern French and Catalans, not with all Iberians.
I agree most Northern Italians (numerically speaking) are similar to Bergamo, but it doesn't mean most Northern Italian groups are Bergamo-like. Most Northern Italians live in Lombardy, so it's natural.

But Friulans, Piedmontese, Trentino, Aostans, Swiss-Italians and part of Venetians are part of an ''Alpine'' cluster.

[Avgvstvs]

They are. Italians have a common culture plus regional differences.You are absolutely free to believe that, but in my honest opinion if you told a Sicilian that he is culturally similar to a person from Trento area, he would quite disagree with you. Same viceversa.

Of course there are many important authors, painters and artists that lived well after the unification of Italy but if by culture you mean traditions, slangs,food, mentality even, then the differences are very considerable......

Inviato dal mio RNE-L01 utilizzando Tapatalk

[MinervaItalica]

Of course there are many important authors, painters and artists that lived well after the unification of Italy but if by culture you mean traditions, slangs,food, mentality even, then the differences are very considerable......

Inviato dal mio RNE-L01 utilizzando Tapatalk

Bullshit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italians

Should we split Bavarians and Northern Germans or Northern French with Southern ones then? Not to mention Spaniards. :rolleyes:

Because the case is the same as the Italian one.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Friulans are not Iberian-like. What are you drinking? Veneto has two regions: one closer to Bergamo and another one closer to Friuli.
Piedmontese cluster closer to Southwestern French and Catalans, not with all Iberians.
I agree most Northern Italians (numerically speaking) are similar to Bergamo, but it doesn't mean most Northern Italian groups are Bergamo-like. Most Northern Italians live in Lombardy, so it's natural.

But Friulans, Piedmontese, Trentino, Aostans, Swiss-Italians and part of Venetians are part of an ''Alpine'' cluster.
I didn't say Friulans are Iberian like, read it again.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Bullshit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italians

Should we split Bavarians and Northern Germans or Northern French with Southern ones then? Not to mention Spaniards. :rolleyes:

Because the case is the same as the Italian one.
Yes, we should. People already have and continue to do so. Not so much Spaniards though, they're pretty homogenous except Basques.

Not the same exact case though, Italy is by far the most diverse country in Europe.

[MinervaItalica]

Yes, we should. People already have and continue to do so. Not so much Spaniards though, they're pretty homogenous except Basques.

Not the same exact case though, Italy is by far the most diverse country in Europe.

I'm speaking culturally. Italy is not more diverse than other countries in EU.

[savvas]

I did not understand a single word he said. Usually i can guess some parts from regular sentences in Italian (but probably still less than people would imagine) as in many other languages, in this video really not even one word. And i grew up in Isère (so not that far from NW Italy) but im not sure why we would be able to understand these dialects, there s only one language in France, north to south, east to west, just with relatively different accents and a few word/expression variants. Arpitan/Francoprovencal are long dead here.

The closest thing we have to a regional dialect would be that:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0DiCYpsJAc

cringe video of old dudes singing,babbling, and trying to teach diversity the language, but that's about it. All French would still understand it just fine.

Are you a native Occitan speaker?

[Adamastor]

I didn't say Friulans are Iberian like, read it again.

Sorry, I misinterpreted you. Anyway, yeah, you're correct, most Northern Italians cluster like Bergamo because regions with a 'Bergamo-like' genetic profile are way more populated.

There are many Northern Italian ethnic groups clustering north of Bergamo and even north of Iberia, but they are not that numerous. Friulans, for example, are only 1.2 million people, Trentino has only 540.000 people and so on. The point of this thread is to show the diversity of genetic plots in N. Italy, not to say most Northern Italians cluster like Friulans or Trentini.

[Avgvstvs]

Bullshit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italians

Should we split Bavarians and Northern Germans or Northern French with Southern ones then? Not to mention Spaniards. :rolleyes:

Because the case is the same as the Italian one.I think we misunderstood each other.... I meant in terms of regional culture(traditions, dialects ecc.... ) there's a considerable difference between areas like Trento and Sicily.

I think those countries you mentioned are more homogeneous than Italy(having their differences too) ..... Mind it I'm not denying that all Italians have some things in common, but I was just surprised by your sentence "Italians from Trento are much closer to sicilians culturally". I think you're just exaggerating the thing.

Inviato dal mio RNE-L01 utilizzando Tapatalk

[MinervaItalica]

I think we misunderstood each other.... I meant in terms of regional culture(traditions, dialects ecc.... ) there's a considerable difference between areas like Trento and Sicily.

I think those countries you mentioned are more homogeneous than Italy(having their differences too) ..... Mind it I'm not denying that all Italians have some things in common, but I was just surprised by your sentence "Italians from Trento are much closer to sicilians culturally". I think you're just exaggerating the thing.

Inviato dal mio RNE-L01 utilizzando Tapatalk

No, there are only some food, dialects and folklore feasts...

Saying that Spain is culturally more homogeneous than Italy is crazy as shit.

Italians from Trento are indeed closer to Sicilians than to Germans. Are you an Italic Roots member? Saying that North Italians are Germans? :rolleyes:

[Avgvstvs]

No, there are only some food, dialects and folklore feasts...

Saying that Spain is culturally more homogeneous than Italy is crazy as shit.

Italians from Trento are indeed closer to Sicilians than to Germans. Are you an Italic Roots member? Saying that North Italians are Germans? :rolleyes:No, I don't think North Italians are Germans

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[XenophobicPrussian]

I'm speaking culturally. Italy is not more diverse than other countries in EU.
Maybe, but we probably have different definitions of culture and I don't proclaim to be an expert on European culture so I won't argue that. I have seen many people point out stuff like North Italians cook with butter and South Italians cook with olive oil, and various other similar comparisons like that, I can't think of any European countries that have stark culinary culture regional differences. All Polish people eat pierogi.

[Adamastor]

No, there are only some food, dialects and folklore feasts...

Saying that Spain is culturally more homogeneous than Italy is crazy as shit.

Italians from Trento are indeed closer to Sicilians than to Germans. Are you an Italic Roots member? Saying that North Italians are Germans? :rolleyes:

Italians from Trento are not mainstream North Italians either. They were part of Austria and identified as such until 1918.

Most romance-speaking Tyroleans (''Trentino'' people) fought alongside Austria, not Italy in WWI, for example.

[Token]

But Friulans, Piedmontese, Trentino, Aostans, Swiss-Italians and part of Venetians are part of an ''Alpine'' cluster.

Agree with that. This 'Alpine cluster' seems to be a transitional region between Central Europe and the main North Italian cluster. Parroting what i said before, this most probable has to do with quite recent movements from Central Europe. Alemannic minorities in Aosta Valley and Piedmont, and Bavarian minorities in Veneto and Friul are witnesses of these movements.

[MinervaItalica]

Italians from Trento are not mainstream North Italians either. They were part of Austria and identified as such until 1918.

Most romance-speaking Tyroleans (''Trentino'' people) fought alongside Austria, not Italy in WWI, for example.

Trentino was still culturally majority Italian even when under Austrians...

"Most" nothing. Prove it with numbers and sources. Obviously there were Austrian sympathizers. Ah yes, there were also South Italians fighting in the North against Austrians just to remark some stupid statement by a certain "Saxon" guy like "ITALIANS HATE EACH OTHER". :rolleyes:

Austrians have had all foreigner ethnicities of its Empire in its army. A normal thing for a multicultural empire.

[Token]

Sauri, Sappada and Timau, all German-speaking minorities, are genetically indistinguishable from Northeastern Italians except for extreme genetic drift due to inbreeding. This supports my hypothesis that the cline running from Lombardy to Central Europe that Northeastern Italians fall in is the fruit of Middle Ages German introgression. Intense contacts between Northeastern Italy and Austria are well documented.

Just look how Veneto and Friuli, together with German-speakers, fall in a cline from North_Italian (Lombardy) to Austria.

https://image.ibb.co/f6zh7v/Pahli.png

[Petalpusher]

Are you a native Occitan speaker?

Im from the regions where Arpitan and Francoprovencal should be native, so even closer to Piedmontese but the point was nobody is because these languages in France are long gone. I read there s about 2 Millions people speaking it in Italy, you would be hard pressed to find 200 in here speaking Arpitan. You would only find it in the French community of the Aoste Valley and even back then they branched their own way in eastern France, so im not even sure people would have been able to understand it well.

Piedmontese should be technically closer to French than Italian is, but i didn't feel it, it might be in part due to the specific accent. On the other hand, the dialect you posted from Emillia sounded more familiar, still didn't understand anything but more familiar in tones (sometimes it sounded like French)

[savvas]

Sorry, I misinterpreted you. Anyway, yeah, you're correct, most Northern Italians cluster like Bergamo because regions with a 'Bergamo-like' genetic profile are way more populated.

There are many Northern Italian ethnic groups clustering north of Bergamo and even north of Iberia, but they are not that numerous. Friulans, for example, are only 1.2 million people, Trentino has only 540.000 people and so on. The point of this thread is to show the diversity of genetic plots in N. Italy, not to say most Northern Italians cluster like Friulans or Trentini.

North Italians clustering north of the North Italian centroid, which should sit in a position intermediate between Milano/Brescia and Bergamo, are Valtellina Lombards, Piedmontese, Venetians, Aostans, Friulans/Julian Venetians and Trentini. 11.300.000 North Italians out of 27.200.000. That's the 42%, not a small figure.

[Adamastor]

Trentino was still culturally majority Italian even when under Austrians...

"Most" nothing. Prove it with numbers and sources. Obviously there were Austrian sympathizers. Ah yes, there were also South Italians fighting in the North against Austrians just to remark some stupid statement by a certain "Saxon" guy like "ITALIANS HATE EACH OTHER". :rolleyes:

Austrians have had all foreigner ethnicities of its Empire in its army. A normal thing for a multicultural empire.

lol, man, are you really going to deny the obvious fact that Tyroleans from Trento are more similar culturally to German Tyroleans than to Sicilians? You're a nutjob then.

Only around 700 romance-speaking Tyroleans joined the Italian army led by Battisti and more than 30.000 joined the Austrian army. Where are the 'sympathizers'?
Battisti is even considered a 'traitor' in Trento and he's despised by most people in Trentino.

[Joso]

lol, man, are you really going to deny the obvious fact that Tyroleans from Trento are more similar culturally to German Tyroleans than to Sicilians? You're a nutjob then.

Only around 700 romance-speaking Tyroleans joined the Italian army led by Battisti and more than 30.000 joined the Austrian army. Where are the 'sympathizers'?
Battisti is even considered a 'traitor' in Trento and he's despised by most people in Trentino.

Hello bro, good to see you re back
Nice thread btw

[Token]

https://i.imgur.com/x6ag2yT.png

[Nurzat]

...

any region has such a "diversity" - on the map you see their average, it doesn't mean all samples plot close to that dot. there's Romanians plotting from Greece to Hungary and from Bosnia to Moldova... and each dot you see on that map is probably based on samples scattered around the same as Italians.



...

north Italians on your map still look closer to Romanians and other Balkanites than to neighbouring Austrians though xD

[Percivalle]

North Italians clustering north of the North Italian centroid, which should sit in a position intermediate between Milano/Brescia and Bergamo, are Valtellina Lombards, Piedmontese, Venetians, Aostans, Friulans/Julian Venetians and Trentini. 11.300.000 North Italians out of 27.200.000. That's the 42%, not a small figure.


There are many Piedmontese and Venetians who have typical Po Valley results. There are significant differences in these two regions between those who live in the Alps and those who live in the plains. So the average of Piedmont and Veneto is much more similar to that of Lombardy when non-alpine samples from these regions are considered.

[Adamastor]

https://i.imgur.com/x6ag2yT.png

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but Friuli seems to have more than one cluster, right? I have some Friulan results (Pordenone province, where my Friulan ancestry is from) in my possession and they seem to plot different than the sample you're using.

They seem much closer to 'Austria Tyrol' than 'Austria', they are located between 'S' and 'Q' in the OP. Not that dissimilar from Trento results. It seems this region has tons of micro-variations, all probably linked to different introgressions in the Middle Ages.

The mere fact that Austrian Tyroleans and other Austrians are significantly different attest what I'm saying.

[savvas]

There are many Piedmontese and Venetians who have typical Po Valley results. There are significant differences in these two regions between those who live in the Alps and those who live in the plains. So the average of Piedmont and Veneto is much more similar to that of Lombardy when non-alpine samples from these regions are considered.

Are there Piedmontese who are southern-shifted compared to Bergamo?

[Percivalle]

https://i.imgur.com/x6ag2yT.png


Correct but the Austrian average on Gedmatch is not very representative of the entire Austria, it is more somewhere in that PCA between Austria and Austria Tyrol.

[Leto]

north Italians on your map still look closer to Romanians and other Balkanites than to neighbouring Austrians though xD
Rumano immigrants can assimilate in Northeast Italy then. :cool:

[MinervaItalica]

Only around 700 romance-speaking Tyroleans joined the Italian army led by Battisti and more than 30.000 joined the Austrian army. Where are the 'sympathizers'?
Battisti is even considered a 'traitor' in Trento and he's despised by most people in Trentino.

"Tyroleans" is a pretty generic term. There are Italians in Trento.

I want to see the source of those numbers.

Cesare Battisti was an Italian patriot.

[Adamastor]

There are Italians in Trento.


Only as immigrants.

[Nurzat]

Rumano immigrants can assimilate in Northeast Italy then. :cool:

yes, Romanians and Italians share a whole lot: looks, language, culture...


Romanian versus Italian:

nu te cred / non ti credo (I do not believe you)

lasa-ma in pace / lasciami in pace (leave me alone)

noapte buna / buona notte (good night)

ciaoles / ciao (hi)


some dialects resemble even more:

Romanian versus Calabrese:

cu mine / ccu mine (with me)

mama ta / mamma ta (your mom)

frate-miu / frate meu (my brother)


average Romanian:
http://humanphenotypes.net/pontidm.jpg

average Italian:
http://humanphenotypes.net/basic/mediterranidm.jpg

[MinervaItalica]

Only as immigrants.

hahahaha.

[Percivalle]

Are there Piedmontese who are southern-shifted compared to Bergamo?


Yes, I saw some results from Lower Piedmont (Alessandria, Monferrato) and they were going in the direction of Liguria and Emilia. There is a cline everywhere in Italy, even within the same region.

Try inserting this into Tolan's tool.

Alessandria/Asti (4/4 Piedmontese grandparents)

North_Sea 13.02
Atlantic 25.34
Baltic 6.53
Eastern_Euro 5.52
West_Med 19.84
West_Asian 7.74
East_Med 17.59
Red_Sea 3.95
South_Asian -
Southeast_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian -
Oceanian -
Northeast_African 0.09
Sub-Saharan 0.38

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Italian 4.82
2 Tuscan 6.17
3 Spanish_Andalucia 9.47
4 Spanish_Extremadura 10.05
5 Spanish_Murcia 10.27
6 Spanish_Valencia 10.71
7 Portuguese 11.1
8 West_Sicilian 11.12
9 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 11.59
10 Spanish_Cataluna 11.63
11 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 11.68
12 Italian_Abruzzo 12.06
13 Greek 12.49
14 Spanish_Galicia 12.58
15 Spanish_Aragon 13.49
16 Greek_Thessaly 13.9
17 Spanish_Cantabria 13.92
18 Bulgarian 14.06
19 Southwest_French 14.51
20 Romanian 14.84

[Leto]

yes, Romanians and Italians share a whole lot: looks, language, culture...


Romanian versus Italian:

nu te cred / non ti credo (I do not believe you)

lasa-ma in pace / lasciami in pace (leave me alone)

noapte buna / buona notte (good night)

ciaoles / ciao (hi)


some dialects resemble even more to Romanian.

Romanian versus Calabrese:

cu mine / ccu mine (with me)

mama ta / mamma ta (your mom)

frate-miu / frate meu (my brother)


average Romanian:
http://humanphenotypes.net/pontidm.jpg

average Italian:
http://humanphenotypes.net/basic/mediterranidm.jpg
Romance/Latin legacy. If Romanians were Roman Catholics, they would fit in Italy even better.

[Token]

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but Friuli seems to have more than one cluster, right? I have some Friulan results (Pordenone province, where my Friulan ancestry is from) in my possession and they seem to plot different than the sample you're using.

They seem much closer to 'Austria Tyrol' than 'Austria', they are located between 'S' and 'Q' in the OP. Not that dissimilar from Trento results. It seems this region has tons of micro-variations, all probably linked to different introgressions in the Middle Ages.

The mere fact that Austrian Tyroleans and other Austrians are significantly different attest what I'm saying.

I'd attribute this to individual variation, unless we can see concise clusters formed by people from each part of Friuli, which would clearly reflect different natures of admixture. We still don't have nearly enough samples to do something like that, so we can only guess. In the recent Italian paper, with a lot of samples from all over Northern Italy, Friuli is clearly heading towards Slovenians too. Northern Italy, specially the regions that figure in the Alpine cluster looks like a melting pot of basically everything. I'd like to hear your opinion on the matter.

[Nurzat]

Romance/Latin legacy. If Romanians were Roman Catholics, they would fit in Italy even better.

yes, unfortunately we're only Orthodox Guidos xD but it's for the best, we Roma-nians are even kitschier than the mangiaspaghetti :cool:

[savvas]

Yes, I saw some results from Lower Piedmont (Alessandria, Monferrato) and they were going in the direction of Liguria and Emilia. There is a cline everywhere in Italy, even within the same region.

Try inserting this into Tolan's tool.

Alessandria/Asti (4/4 Piedmontese grandparents)

North_Sea 13.02
Atlantic 25.34
Baltic 6.53
Eastern_Euro 5.52
West_Med 19.84
West_Asian 7.74
East_Med 17.59
Red_Sea 3.95
South_Asian -
Southeast_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian -
Oceanian -
Northeast_African 0.09
Sub-Saharan 0.38

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Italian 4.82
2 Tuscan 6.17
3 Spanish_Andalucia 9.47
4 Spanish_Extremadura 10.05
5 Spanish_Murcia 10.27
6 Spanish_Valencia 10.71
7 Portuguese 11.1
8 West_Sicilian 11.12
9 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 11.59
10 Spanish_Cataluna 11.63
11 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 11.68
12 Italian_Abruzzo 12.06
13 Greek 12.49
14 Spanish_Galicia 12.58
15 Spanish_Aragon 13.49
16 Greek_Thessaly 13.9
17 Spanish_Cantabria 13.92
18 Bulgarian 14.06
19 Southwest_French 14.51
20 Romanian 14.84

Thanks, updated:

https://i.imgur.com/pOUvOl8.png

[Leto]

yes, unfortunately we're only Orthodox Guidos xD but it's for the best, we Roma-nians are even kitschier than the mangiaspaghetti :cool:
Lol. A big bridge between the Roman empire and Rajasthan :lol: (jokin')

[Token]

"Tyroleans" is a pretty generic term. There are Italians in Trento.

I want to see the source of those numbers.

Cesare Battisti was an Italian patriot.

'Italians' in Trento looks like slightly Italian admixed South Tyroleans.

[Adamastor]

I'd attribute this to individual variation, unless we can see a concise cluster formed by people from each part of Friuli, which would clearly reflect different natures of admixture. We still don't have nearly enough samples to do something like that, so we can only guess. In the recent Italian paper, with a lot of samples from all over Northern Italy, Friuli is clearly heading towards Slovenians too. Northern Italy, specially the regions that figure in the Alpine cluster looks like a melting pot of basically everything. I'd like to hear your opinion on the matter.

It seems there's a variation in two directions: Slovenia and Austrian Tyrol/France/SW Germany. The results from Pordenone I have seen show a heavy tendency towards the main French cluster, like the Trento 'S' sample. They all derive their ancestry from the same city and I'm not sure if this city is inhabited mainly by ethnic minorities or not, someone living in Italy could help us with that.

I guess we will only have a more accurate picture of Northeastern Italy with much more samples. I have seen people from Trento plotting only slightly more northern than lowland Venetians and others who plot almost like Austrian Tyroleans. Individual variation seems to be strong in the region, more than in other parts of Europe I've seen so far.

I'm searching for Swiss Romansch and Ladin results from Trentino, do you have any? I think they can be a 'key' to solve this mystery since they are probably the closest populations to what Alpine populations were before Italics, Germans, Slavs. Maybe some Friulans as well, given the fact Friulan is a Rhaeto-Romance language.

[Vid Flumina]

Yes, I saw some results from Lower Piedmont (Alessandria, Monferrato) and they were going in the direction of Liguria and Emilia. There is a cline everywhere in Italy, even within the same region.


Makes sense. Borbera valley (Alessandria province) sample also looked Bergamo-like if not a little south of it in the Friulian genetic isolates study.
Linguistically this seems to be a transitional area between Piedmontese, Ligurian, Lombard and Emilian:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Linguistic_map_of_Italy_-_Legend.svg/623px-Linguistic_map_of_Italy_-_Legend.svg.png

We see a similar pattern on the opposite side with Verona/Southern Veneto being sucked into the same cluster.

[Nurzat]

Lol. A big bridge between the Roman empire and Rajasthan :lol: (jokin')

why joke? it's true xD

this is a great video and a great song! lyrics are in Romanian, it says the young girl is eating watermelon on the village street.

common thing to Romanians and Italians: big family gatherings, close family ties, mother-son close relationship


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdk-r4loosY

[Joso]

any region has such a "diversity" - on the map you see their average, it doesn't mean all samples plot close to that dot. there's Romanians plotting from Greece to Hungary and from Bosnia to Moldova... and each dot you see on that map is probably based on samples scattered around the same as Italians.




north Italians on your map still look closer to Romanians and other Balkanites than to neighbouring Austrians though xD

Wild NURZAT appeared!

>FIGHT
PKMN
ITEM
RUN

[Token]

It seems there's a variation in two directions: Slovenia and Austrian Tyrol/France/SW Germany. The results from Pordenone I have seen show a heavy tendency towards the main French cluster, like the Trento 'S' sample. They all derive their ancestry from the same city and I'm not sure if this city is inhabited mainly by ethnic minorities or not, someone living in Italy could help us with that.

I guess we will only have a more accurate picture of Northeastern Italy with much more samples. I have seen people from Trento plotting only slightly more northern than lowland Venetians and others who plot almost like Austrian Tyroleans. Individual variation seems to be strong in the region, more than in other parts of Europe I've seen so far.

I'm searching for Swiss Romansch and Ladin results from Trentino, do you have any? I think they can be a 'key' to solve this mystery since they are probably the closest populations to what Alpine populations were before Italics, Germans, Slavs. Maybe some Friulans as well, given the fact Friulan is a Rhaeto-Romance language.

Not from Trentino, but the Rhaeto-Romance isolates from Friul plot somewhere between Basques and Sardinians. They probably didn't got any Roman, Celtic, Germanic and Slavic admixture. Also, i don't know if you have already read at Anthrogenica but Italic samples will be released soon and they cluster with Basques, and so do Etruscans.

[Adamastor]

Not from Trentino, but the Rhaeto-Romance isolates from Friul plot somewhere between Basques and Sardinians. They probably didn't got any Roman, Celtic, Germanic and Slavic admixture. Also, i don't know if you have already read at Anthrogenica but Italic samples will be released soon and they cluster with Basques, and so do Etruscans.

That's really interesting, if proto-Italics and Etruscans were Basque-like, it seems modern Italians have passed through a heavy intermixing of many different peoples. I'd expect proto-Italics to be more or less like mainstream modern Northern Italians, if that's not the case, then 'Bergamo-like' Northern Italians indeed do have a lot of Celtic, Germanic and even Greek/S. Italian blood, right? Because Etruscans were living in modern Tuscany and the peoples living above (like Proto-Italics) certainly were more or less like them, since both were derived from Vilanovian culture.

[Token]

That's really interesting, if proto-Italics and Etruscans were Basque-like, it seems modern Italians have passed through a heavy intermixing of many different peoples. I'd expect proto-Italics to be more or less like mainstream modern Northern Italians, if that's not the case, then 'Bergamo-like' Northern Italians indeed do have a lot of Celtic, Germanic and even Greek/S. Italian blood, right? Because Etruscans were living in modern Tuscany and the peoples living above (like Proto-Italics) certainly were more or less like them, since both were derived from Vilanovian culture.
Yep, this is why a refer to Northern Italy as a huge melting pot of basically everything ranging from Greeks to Scandinavians. Celticization, Romanization and the barbarian migrations, and additional Austro-Bavarian admixture in the case of 'Alpine' Italians. All of them seems to have contributed to the formation of modern-day North Italians. Like a pendulum, North Italians probably oscilated from French-like to Central Italian-like over its troubled history.

[Percivalle]

That's really interesting, if proto-Italics and Etruscans were Basque-like, it seems modern Italians have passed through a heavy intermixing of many different peoples. I'd expect proto-Italics to be more or less like mainstream modern Northern Italians, if that's not the case, then 'Bergamo-like' Northern Italians indeed do have a lot of Celtic, Germanic and even Greek/S. Italian blood, right? Because Etruscans were living in modern Tuscany and the peoples living above (like Proto-Italics) certainly were more or less like them, since both were derived from Vilanovian culture.

In the leaked PCA, Etruscans show a certain tendency, but were not exactly Basque-like. The Villanovan culture is Etruscan and only Etruscan, you get confused with the previous Bronze age culture, the Proto-Villanovan culture which is not only ancestral to the Etruscans of the Villanovan phase but also to other populations of the Iron Age in Italy (Atestine culture, Latial Culture, Picenes...).

[savvas]

Tuscan samples added (Lucca in Tuscany and Monferrato in Piedmont are in the same position):

https://i.imgur.com/ONcfaxa.png

[MinervaItalica]

"Italians" people doesn't exist, genetically speaking. They are four group, genetically differents : North Italy, Central, Southern and Sardinian cluster.

Coming from a Canadian sound pretty funny.

Genetics are based on numbers and numbers can be manipulated, especially in forum like these.

Culture is much more significant to define an ethnic group and definitely much more "tangible" than genetics who, frankly, no one care IRL.

[savvas]

I thought he was way too southern shifted to be clustering between Basques and Sardinians.

Here are more people from Erto:

http://www.presidente.regione.fvg.it/contenuti/Fotografie/75140_1.jpg
(except third guy)

https://creativemedia3-rai-it.akamaized.net/infocdn/T3_News_Regioni/T3_Veneto/10212867_1.jpg

https://giornalenordest.it/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/Mail17Tx002701-620x330.jpg

https://www.gelestatic.it/thimg/PR__hQoD9ZGDe0GVDcLjgxFLimg=/960x540/smart/https%3A//messaggeroveneto.gelocal.it/image/contentid/policy%3A1.15476751%3A1542350580/image/image.jpg%3Ff%3Ddetail_558%26h%3D720%26w%3D1280%26 %24p%24f%24h%24w%3Dd5eb06a



https://scontent-frx5-1.cdninstagram.com/vp/bc8671a3614fbf9fb7f0b4a110350d39/5D7D4030/t51.2885-15/e15/11263470_1597685053813174_623948270_n.jpg?_nc_ht=s content-frx5-1.cdninstagram.com&se=8

https://www.gelestatic.it/thimg/8ghLSVMa204tsbnUSiIOT-fhSo0=/960x540/smart/https%3A//messaggeroveneto.gelocal.it/image/contentid/policy%3A1.14076303%3A1542393582/image/image.jpg%3Ff%3Ddetail_558%26h%3D720%26w%3D1280%26 %24p%24f%24h%24w%3Dd5eb06a

https://www.gelestatic.it/thimg/A6KkXc4inDJWba4H2LCOlNxcVpk=/960x530/smart/http%3A//messaggeroveneto.gelocal.it/image/contentid/policy%3A1.14636724%3A1542447185/image/image.jpg%3Ff%3Ddetail_558%26h%3D530%26w%3D960%26% 24p%24f%24h%24w%3Ddab5dab

https://www.gelestatic.it/thimg/D7VJHjHovVTjWBLfZnFa0WhCiNs=/960x540/smart/https%3A//messaggeroveneto.gelocal.it/image/contentid/policy%3A1.13460765%3A1542314333/image/image.jpg%3Ff%3Ddetail_558%26h%3D720%26w%3D1280%26 %24p%24f%24h%24w%3Dd5eb06a

http://www.presidente.regione.fvg.it/contenuti/Fotografie/75516_erto%20e%20casso.png
(again, except the bald guy in the dark suit)

https://www.thelocal.it/userdata/images/article/c14d38b77fd44b19b6fcec84a2f763766cfcf72831bb1e41a9 743deb33107f5a.jpg

He's no different from other Ertani:


Corona is the most common surname in Erto. His mother's surname, Filippin, is the second most common surname in Erto. And Ertani plot halfway between Sardinians and Basques, so it looks like the whole community shares this Sardinian admixture. When did this immigration from Sardinia happen? There's no mention of that in the study, nor on Wiki.

The fact that Ertani plot between Sardinians and Basques could point to a Sardinian origin of the whole community of Erto and Casso.

https://i.imgur.com/wlUrqMJ.jpg

[Vid Flumina]

Corona is the most common surname in Erto. His mother's surname, Filippin, is the second most common surname in Erto. And Ertani plot halfway between Sardinians and Basques, so it looks like the whole community shares this Sardinian admixture. When did this immigration from Sardinia happen? There's no mention of that in the study, nor on Wiki.


Corona appears to have recent Sardinian ancestry:


Siparietto terminato? Nemmeno per sogno, perché l’alpinista ha continuato a punzecchiare la conduttrice che, al contrario, tentava in tutti i modi di riportare l’ospite sui temi di attualità. Ecco allora l’accusa di “depistaggio” e l’ironia di Corona sulle presunte vacanze a Capalbio dell'ex direttrice del Tg3. “Io non ci metto piede a Capalbio – ha replicato - vado in vacanza in Sardegna, sono di origine sarda. E’ inutile che lei insiste”.

https://www.tvblog.it/post/1563145/cartabianca-berlinguer-corona-lite

Surname distribution can be very misleading in 2020

[Aren]

Agree with that. This 'Alpine cluster' seems to be a transitional region between Central Europe and the main North Italian cluster. Parroting what i said before, this most probable has to do with quite recent movements from Central Europe. Alemannic minorities in Aosta Valley and Piedmont, and Bavarian minorities in Veneto and Friul are witnesses of these movements.

Indeed. They must be rather recent. But it's important to note that these fringe regions of Northern Italy, like Aosta and parts of Trentino who were Arpitan respectively German speaking regions until relatively recently account for a small part of the Northern Italian population. Most Northern Italians, including Swiss Italians fall within the Bergamo-cluster.

[Token]

Indeed. They must be rather recent. But it's important to note that these fringe regions of Northern Italy, like Aosta and parts of Trentino who were Arpitan respectively German speaking regions until relatively recently account for a small part of the Northern Italian population. Most Northern Italians, including Swiss Italians fall within the Bergamo-cluster.

What about Friul, eastern Veneto and northwestern Piedmont? They commonly come out in between North Italians and Central Europeans. What would be the northern shifting element in your opinion?

[Aren]

What about Friul, eastern Veneto and northwestern Piedmont? They commonly come out in between North Italians and Central Europeans. What would be the northern shifting element in your opinion?

For Piedmont, same as for Aosta with closer contact to the Arpitan speaking area of France and Switzerland. And for Friuli most likely Austro-Hungarian ties leading to Slovenian admix. I don't think any of the more northern shifting regions of Northern Italy today are ancient in the sense that they represent some kind of isolated population from the time of the barbarian invasion of Italy, but rather they have been more prone to contact with Central Europe in the modern era.

[Duffmannn]

Northern Italy = Lombardy, Liguria, Aosta Valley, Piedmont, Italian speaking Switzerland (NW Italy) + Veneto, Trentino-Alto Adige, Friuli (NE Italy). Emilia-Romagna is more an intermediary region between NE Italy, NW Italy and Tuscany.

Emilia-Romagna is north Italy.

North Italy basically means "Padania", all the lands surrounde by the Po river and its affluents, more Aosta and Liguria.

South Italy is the old Due Sicily Kingdom, this regions shares common dialectal varieties, that´s the reason why Abruzzos are southern despite its geographical position. Sardinia is consideared south Italy, but for me and many pople it´s something different, it´s own thing.

Central Italy is everything placed between these two regions.

[Avgvstvs]

Northern Italy: Lombardia, Piemonte, Val d'Aosta, Veneto, Friuli, Liguria, Emilia-Romagna, Trentino

Central Italy: Marche, Umbria, Toscana, Lazio

Abruzzo is transitional and heavily southern influence

Southern italy: Campania, Molise, Puglia, Calabria, Basilicata, Sicilia

Sardegna is Sardegna


That's Italy, folks

Inviato dal mio RNE-L01 utilizzando Tapatalk

[MinervaItalica]

Emilia-Romagna is north Italy.

North Italy basically means "Padania", all the lands surrounde by the Po river and its affluents, more Aosta and Liguria.

"Padania" is an invented political term with no etno-cultural significance more geographically perhaps. Emilia-Romagna is north (Northeast to be precise) and geographically part of "Padania" but it always been a leftist region and never supported the ex Lega Nord ideas. I see the region as a mix between North and Central. Historically it played roles in both North Italy and Central due to parts of it being part of the Papal States.

[Avgvstvs]

"Padania" is an invented political term with no etno-cultural significance more geographically perhaps. Emilia-Romagna is north (Northeast to be precise) and geographically part of "Padania" but it always been a leftist region and never supported the ex Lega Nord ideas. I see the region as a mix between North and Central. Historically it played roles in both North Italy and Central due to parts of it being part of the Papal States.Quindi solo la Romagna è legata anche al centro Italia per te, no? Infatti è così, nonostante rimanga comunque più simile all'Emilia che a qualsiasi altro posto in Italia.

Inviato dal mio RNE-L01 utilizzando Tapatalk

[MinervaItalica]

Quindi solo la Romagna è legata anche al centro Italia per te, no? Infatti è così, nonostante rimanga comunque più simile all'Emilia che a qualsiasi altro posto in Italia.

Inviato dal mio RNE-L01 utilizzando Tapatalk

Non solo la Romagna è stata parte dello Stato Pontificio ma anche parti dell'Emilia, Bologna e anche Parma.

[Samnium]

Molise is also transitional, and actually there is apulian and basilicata samples that are very close of Abbruzzo because of Greek admixture that contains Slavic and therefore Steppe. Same thing for West Sicily.

Envoyé de mon ALE-L21 en utilisant Tapatalk

[Avgvstvs]

Non solo la Romagna è stata parte dello Stato Pontificio ma anche parti dell'Emilia, Bologna e anche Parma.Che influenze del centro avrebbero? Bologna solo l'appartenenza storica allo stato pontificio, per il resto è piuttosto simile a Modena(te lo dice un modenese)

Per quanto riguarda Parma, è già fuori dalla vera Emilia, orientata verso la Lombardia

Inviato dal mio RNE-L01 utilizzando Tapatalk

[Avgvstvs]

Molise is also transitional, and actually there is apulian and basilicata samples that are very close of Abbruzzo because of Greek admixture that contains Slavic and therefore Steppe. Same thing for West Sicily.

Envoyé de mon ALE-L21 en utilisant TapatalkI was considering not only Genetics, but also language(dialect and accent), culture and history

Inviato dal mio RNE-L01 utilizzando Tapatalk

[Samnium]

I was considering not only Genetics, but also language(dialect and accent), culture and history

Inviato dal mio RNE-L01 utilizzando Tapatalk

Ok, fine. I think that Abbruzzo for cultural aspect fall completely into the southern case. They are the most "central" southern italians but there is a clearly dividing line between Abbruzzo and Lazio for example. They have much in common with southerners historically than many central italians, except maybe Lazio.

[Avgvstvs]

Ok, fine. I think that Abbruzzo for cultural aspect fall completely into the southern case.Exactly, but geographically it's still central

Inviato dal mio RNE-L01 utilizzando Tapatalk

[Samnium]

Exactly, but geographically it's still central

Inviato dal mio RNE-L01 utilizzando Tapatalk

Yep surely. Central-south.

[Tauromachos]

Ok so they can shift as far South as Tuscans go or even further...?

My theory would be,the ones who are closer to Tuscans might have more native Italian ancestry from the region and the rest
more other European influence.

[Avgvstvs]

Yep surely. Central-south.Heard many Abruzzese in my life speaking, their accent is so southern, it's kinda similar to Campanian somehow

Let alone their dialect....

Inviato dal mio RNE-L01 utilizzando Tapatalk

[Inquizzzitor]

Sicilians and Southern Italians are mid way between Northern Italians and Lebanese. Makes sense.

[Samnium]

Ok so they can shift as far South as Tuscans go or even further...?

My theory would be,the ones who are closer to Tuscans might have more native Italian ancestry from the region and the rest
more other European influence.

I do think so, Northern-northern Italy has slavic, german and celtic influences so obviously this shift them further north.

[Samnium]

Sicilians and Southern Italians are mid way between Northern Italians and Lebanese. Makes sense.

Not all Southern Italians, some Southern Italians. Also it depend what you mean by Northern Italian, if it's Tirolese or Piedmontese or Lower-Lombardy. There are noticeable differences between these regions, adding to the inter-regional variability (individual variability) it's very hard to state that S.Italians are more closer to Lebanese (by the way S.Italy isn't homogenous at all).

[Samnium]

Averages for S.Italy mean nothing because there are extremely levant-shifted people that lower considerably the average point, it's some kind of deceit. And at the opposite you will find peoples that matches with Tuscans, and between these extremes a lot of intermediate cases.

[MinervaItalica]

Bologna solo l'appartenenza storica allo stato pontificio, per il resto è piuttosto simile a Modena(te lo dice un modenese)

L'appartenenza storica non è una cosa di poca considerazione, fa parte della cultura. Anche l'Abruzzo è considerato sud per la sua appartenenza al regno delle Due Sicilie.

[Samnium]

L'appartenenza storica non è una cosa di poca considerazione, fa parte della cultura. Anche l'Abruzzo è considerato sud per la sua appartenenza al regno delle Due Sicilie.

Sono d'accordo, gli abruzzezi non si sono mai considerati come italiani centrali, già sono separati dall'Italia centrale vera e propria dagli Appennini e hanno più legami con le regione confinanti al Sud. Poi dopo sul piano genetico e culturale, entrono totalmente nel cluster sud italiano anchè se penso che ci sono individui che sono vicinissimi al Lazio.

[Avgvstvs]

Sono d'accordo, gli abruzzezi non si sono mai considerati come italiani centrali, già sono separati dall'Italia centrale vera e propria dagli Appennini e hanno più legami con le regione confinanti al Sud. Poi dopo sul piano genetico e culturale, entrono totalmente nel cluster sud italiano anchè se penso che ci sono individui che sono vicinissimi al Lazio.Sì, l'Abruzzo per moltissimi versi è sud

Inviato dal mio RNE-L01 utilizzando Tapatalk

[Leto]

Found in my personal lists of kit #'s - Puglia/Apulia

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 27.13
2 West_Med 24.49
3 North_Atlantic 17.16
4 West_Asian 14.11
5 Baltic 11.07
6 Red_Sea 3.67
7 East_Asian 1.64
8 Oceanian 0.73

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Central_Greek 4.05
2 East_Sicilian 5.41
3 West_Sicilian 6.26
4 Italian_Abruzzo 6.49
5 South_Italian 6.8
6 Greek_Thessaly 6.9
7 Ashkenazi 9.72
8 Tuscan 10.27
9 Algerian_Jewish 13.09
10 Italian_Jewish 13.43
11 Sephardic_Jewish 13.64
12 Bulgarian 15.08
13 North_Italian 15.6
14 Romanian 17.24
15 Tunisian_Jewish 17.58
16 Libyan_Jewish 18.1
17 Cyprian 19.02
18 Serbian 21.42
19 Turkish 21.88
20 Lebanese_Muslim 22.76

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 90.4% Central_Greek + 9.6% Sardinian @ 2.59
2 92.3% Central_Greek + 7.7% Southwest_French @ 3.22
3 94.4% Central_Greek + 5.6% French_Basque @ 3.26
4 92.3% Central_Greek + 7.7% Spanish_Cantabria @ 3.31
5 86.7% Central_Greek + 13.3% North_Italian @ 3.31
6 91.3% Central_Greek + 8.7% Spanish_Andalucia @ 3.33
7 91.9% Central_Greek + 8.1% Spanish_Valencia @ 3.39
8 92.2% Central_Greek + 7.8% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 3.39
9 92.9% Central_Greek + 7.1% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.4
10 92.1% Central_Greek + 7.9% Spanish_Galicia @ 3.44
11 92.5% Central_Greek + 7.5% Spanish_Cataluna @ 3.46
12 91.8% Central_Greek + 8.2% Spanish_Extremadura @ 3.46
13 92.6% Central_Greek + 7.4% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 3.48
14 92.4% Central_Greek + 7.6% Spanish_Murcia @ 3.5
15 92.1% Central_Greek + 7.9% Portuguese @ 3.5
16 83.3% Central_Greek + 16.7% Tuscan @ 3.57
17 50.5% South_Italian + 49.5% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.7
18 71.9% South_Italian + 28.1% Bulgarian @ 3.7
19 78.3% Central_Greek + 21.7% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.72
20 82.5% South_Italian + 17.5% Moldavian @ 3.72


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 24.63
2 West_Med 21.21
3 West_Asian 13.46
4 Atlantic 11.9
5 North_Sea 11.1
6 Baltic 7.41
7 Red_Sea 4.35
8 Eastern_Euro 4.06
9 Southeast_Asian 1.26
10 Oceanian 0.62

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Central_Greek 4.94
2 East_Sicilian 5.74
3 Greek_Thessaly 6.36
4 Italian_Abruzzo 6.99
5 South_Italian 7.11
6 Greek 7.23
7 Ashkenazi 7.6
8 West_Sicilian 7.84
9 Tuscan 9
10 Italian_Jewish 11.15
11 Algerian_Jewish 12.56
12 Sephardic_Jewish 12.81
13 Bulgarian 14.09
14 North_Italian 14.66
15 Romanian 16.17
16 Tunisian_Jewish 16.9
17 Libyan_Jewish 17.36
18 Cyprian 18.21
19 Serbian 19.27
20 Turkish 21.21

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 88.3% Central_Greek + 11.7% Sardinian @ 3.06
2 54.2% Greek_Thessaly + 45.8% South_Italian @ 3.95
3 63.9% Central_Greek + 36.1% Greek_Thessaly @ 4.11
4 89.1% Central_Greek + 10.9% Spanish_Galicia @ 4.15
5 84.1% Central_Greek + 15.9% North_Italian @ 4.17
6 89.4% Central_Greek + 10.6% Portuguese @ 4.24
7 91.3% Central_Greek + 8.7% Spanish_Cantabria @ 4.28
8 55.3% East_Sicilian + 44.7% Greek_Thessaly @ 4.32
9 68.8% Greek_Thessaly + 31.2% Italian_Jewish @ 4.33
10 76.8% Central_Greek + 23.2% Tuscan @ 4.33
11 92% Central_Greek + 8% Southwest_French @ 4.35
12 71.7% Greek_Thessaly + 28.3% Algerian_Jewish @ 4.35
13 90.4% Central_Greek + 9.6% Spanish_Extremadura @ 4.38
14 91.1% Central_Greek + 8.9% Spanish_Cataluna @ 4.39
15 90.7% Central_Greek + 9.3% Spanish_Andalucia @ 4.41
16 91.4% Central_Greek + 8.6% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 4.43
17 91.1% Central_Greek + 8.9% Spanish_Murcia @ 4.45
18 92.6% Central_Greek + 7.4% Spanish_Aragon @ 4.47
19 92.1% Central_Greek + 7.9% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 4.48
20 89% East_Sicilian + 11% Sardinian @ 4.48


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 31.39
2 Atlantic_Med 29.75
3 North_European 16.53
4 Southwest_Asian 10.5
5 Gedrosia 6.22
6 Northwest_African 3.7
7 East_Asian 1.25
8 Southeast_Asian 0.41
9 East_African 0.25

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 C_Italian (Dodecad) 5.6
2 Sicilian (Dodecad) 6.73
3 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 6.85
4 O_Italian (Dodecad) 7.58
5 Greek (Dodecad) 7.74
6 Tuscan (HGDP) 9.28
7 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 9.38
8 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 9.56
9 TSI30 (Metspalu) 10.14
10 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 13.14
11 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 14.4
12 N_Italian (Dodecad) 15.65
13 North_Italian (HGDP) 17.07
14 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 18.6
15 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 18.85
16 Romanians (Behar) 19.78
17 Cypriots (Behar) 22.35
18 Turkish (Dodecad) 22.93
19 Baleares (1000Genomes) 25.17
20 Turks (Behar) 25.39

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 64.1% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 35.9% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) @ 2.15
2 87.9% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 12.1% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 2.24
3 88% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 12% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 2.25
4 85.1% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 14.9% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 2.25
5 86.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 13.3% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 2.29
6 85.8% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 14.2% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 2.31
7 85.1% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 14.9% German (Dodecad) @ 2.36
8 87% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 13% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 2.36
9 87.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 12.2% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 2.4
10 87.9% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 12.1% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 2.41
11 87% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 13% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 2.41
12 86.2% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 13.8% CEU30 (1000Genomes) @ 2.45
13 86.9% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 13.1% Irish (Dodecad) @ 2.46
14 86.2% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 13.8% English (Dodecad) @ 2.46
15 86% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 14% Kent (1000Genomes) @ 2.51
16 85% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 15% German (Dodecad) @ 2.51
17 85% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 15% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 2.52
18 85.7% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 14.3% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 2.54
19 86.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 13.3% British_Isles (Dodecad) @ 2.57
20 86.6% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 13.4% British (Dodecad) @ 2.59

[vbnetkhio]

i'll just post this


Italians
https://i.imgur.com/c2ztq86.png

https://i.imgur.com/jgC4z9b.png

https://i.imgur.com/AzONl1c.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/IqjaEK7.png

[Nurzat]

ragazzi, ma queste vostre italiane sono stupendi. me ne frego dove sarebbero sul PCA. maggior parte delle italiane hanno in culo grande, bello gonfio, in forma, e con un culo bello grande e gonfio, le tete grandi, poi anche una vita stretta... mamma mia! sembrano delle bambole gia'! queste italiane mi hanno sorpreso! ehe... se non ero sposato... xD allora sto solo cortesemente guardando. da quello che ho visto, le italiane > le rumene/le ucraine, sia in gioventu' che in maturita'. soprattutto qua in Lombardia, ma anche la Toscana e l'Umbria stanno bene.

+ quelle che mi sono piaciute di piu' erano anche molto mediterranee di aspetto xD

[MinervaItalica]

ragazzi, ma queste vostre italiane sono stupendi. me ne frego dove sarebbero sul PCA. maggior parte delle italiane hanno in culo grande, bello gonfio, in forma, e con un culo bello grande e gonfio, le tete grandi, poi anche una vita stretta... mamma mia! sembrano delle bambole gia'! queste italiane mi hanno sorpreso! ehe... se non ero sposato... xD allora sto solo cortesemente guardando. da quello che ho visto, le italiane > le rumene/le ucraine, sia in gioventu' che in maturita'. soprattutto qua in Lombardia, ma anche la Toscana e l'Umbria stanno bene.

+ quelle che mi sono piaciute di piu' erano anche molto mediterranee di aspetto xD

:confused: :crazy:

[Padanian]

What's the best company for doing the DNA origins test? What company delivers to Milan and has the most reliable results?

[Nausevar]

What's the best company for doing the DNA origins test? What company delivers to Milan and has the most reliable results?
Io ho fatto il test con 23andme 2 anni fa e sono soddisfatto. Ottieni un po' di info, tra cui di utili gli aplogruppi paterno e materno e il file contenente il tuo dna autosomico che puoi scaricare facilmente dal menù in alto.
Ho sentito dire però che ultimamente altri test hanno una qualità maggiore, forse MyHeritage, ma visto che ormai il test l'ho fatto non mi sono interessato ad approfondire.

[Avgvstvs]

Io ho fatto il test con 23andme 2 anni fa e sono soddisfatto. Ottieni un po' di info, tra cui di utili gli aplogruppi paterno e materno e il file contenente il tuo dna autosomico che puoi scaricare facilmente dal menù in alto.
Ho sentito dire però che ultimamente altri test hanno una qualità maggiore, forse MyHeritage, ma visto che ormai il test l'ho fatto non mi sono interessato ad approfondire.Proprio no, Myheritage fa piuttosto cagare.

Inviato dal mio SM-A405FN utilizzando Tapatalk

[Furlanmater]

Alla fine i nord italiani sono tra il mondo francese(del centro/nord presumo)e i toscani.
Infatti la percentuale di occhi chiari capelli chiari è similare a quella della Francia centrale e meridionale(con propaggini anche a ridosso della Bretagna.