Why do Italians look Lighter than Iberians when they have less % Northern Ancestry?

[Bigsaul]

North Italians look considerably lighter than any Iberian including Basques. I wonder whether is it because the Northern Ancestry in Italians came mainly from Scandinavian like source and it was less recessive than the Gallic and Celtic ancestry of Iberians or simply because the Northern source of Spain was dark haired generally. (notice Southern French are also predominately dark haired and more similar to Iberians than other French.

We can't blame the minuscule North African ancestry for making Iberians darker when it's less than 6% on average and Iberians are almost 40% Northern European genetically which exceeds the level even of North Italy.

My guess is it's due to climate adaption and sexual dimorphism. Spain has less mountainous areas as North Italy and most inhabitants who live in the mountains didn't need dark alleles responsible for sun protection so they evolved a more Northern physical characteristic as opposed to Iberian Peninsular people who developed physical characteristics (short statue, dark hair, often olive skin to protect them from the Mediterranean climate.
Maybe in Italy men preferred blondes more than in Spain which resulted a higher demand for Northern traits as opposed of Spain where the opposite was common.

Here you can see Spain have excessive amounts of Northern DNA while the Italy has considerably less.

https://i.imgur.com/3YrlLqk.gif

French and Iberians seem tied togeter as usual on most maps

https://i.imgur.com/1rJdyer.png

[XenophobicPrussian]

Probably a combination of both climate, ancestry, and the North African(blonde hair is recessive). Yes, the northern ancestry(mostly Bell Beakers then some Hallstatt Celtic, Hallstatt being more central Euro so only like 60-70% northern) in Iberians was much darker haired than Germanics or Scandinavians, Urnfield was also lighter if Urnfield was proto-Italo-Celtic, which it probably was. Beakers were a bit darker than Welsh, Hallstatt Celts probably had the pigmentation of modern central French.

[Bigsaul]

North Atlantic and Baltic of Italians and Iberians:

North Italian. 31.68 11.93
Tuscany. 27.18 10.01
Portuguese. 38.54 11.51
Spanish Aragon. 43.83 8.27
Spanish Andalucia 39.07 8.19

[Ülev]

this thread has potential to be great
:popcorn:

[Scipio Africanus]

https://media1.tenor.com/images/28f49f4fcfbe4631ec685cccb88d3a99/tenor.gif?itemid=5319823

[Smaug]

Maybe because of the Moorish influence in Iberia? Iberians carry more MENA and Sub-Saharan markers.

[Tenma de Pegasus]

The Iberian blood is not exactly southern european, but its a combination of lot of different peoples from North, South and mainly West. Which was a very Rainbow Peninsula became homogeneous with the time.

The excess of northern dna around 40-45% compared to North Italy 25-30% can be applied to Reconquista and the repopulation from Northern Iberia regions to South.

Something it never happened in Italy, keeping regions outside North Italy very Greek/East Med shifted.

[Adamastor]

I think some of your options are reasonable, but the Italian groups which are significantly lighter than Iberians are also lighter than Balkanites and Southern French imo. These are mostly groups living in Northeastern Italy, like Tyroleans, Friulans, some Alpine Venetians etc.

These groups aren't average Northern Italians (who live mostly in Lombardy or Emilia-Romagna) and aren't more 'southern' genetically than average Iberians. Many Trentino people are closer to tthe main French cluster than to Portuguese, for example.

Southern Europeans, from Iberia to Balkans, don't vary that much in pigmentation IMO.

As far as I know the only Italians who are significantly lighter than mainstream Southern Euros are the ones from the Alpine regions of Italy.

Here in Brazil we have both Northern Italians from Veneto, Friuli and Italian Tyrol and recent Iberians (people who immigrated in the last 100 years and generally are full Iberian), the Italians look considerably lighter on average.

[Ayetooey]

This is something that really bugs me. North Italians are way south-east shifted compared to Iberians, but North Italians seem significantly lighter, and I see a fair few examples that could even pass in Britain. Iberians are significantly darker. No clue why this is the case.

[Tenma de Pegasus]

Also compare England with Germany or Ireland with Denmark. The celtic look more brown haired with lighter skin.

But talking about facial features, iberians look more northern and western than ALL italians who have a lot of East Med and Dinarid traits. Even in North Italy we find a lot of people with hooked noses.

[MinervaItalica]

OP clearly is trying to start a war between Iberians and Italians.

[savvas]

Maybe because of the Moorish influence in Iberia? Iberians carry more MENA and Sub-Saharan markers.

Could be, Basques have close to zero Moorish influence if I remember right, and their light eyes rate is comparable to North Italians (39% Basques, 37% North Italians, 37% Lombards, 41% Piedmontese, 41% Venetians).

[guezet]

Iberians are more western than northern Italians, not more northern.


https://image.ibb.co/fz0Qnz/Euro_PCA.jpg

[billErobreren]

For what it's worth Italy's always been the more fascinating and varied country. The Iberian peninsula has no North/South divide and are just darker Proto-Frogs with less variety to their looks than their French cousins. Boring looking, the only people there that look somewhat unique are the Basque and even those you'll find in France.

[Tenma de Pegasus]

But Its a bit unfair to compare a whole Peninsula with two countries or three(also Andorra) with just the lighter part of other country with a lot of small ethnic minorities on its border derived from Austria, 1/3 of Italy territory.

[savvas]

I think some of your options are reasonable, but the Italian groups which are significantly lighter than Iberians are also lighter than Balkanites and Southern French imo. These are mostly groups living Northeastern Italy, like Tyroleans, Friulans, some Alpine Venetians etc.

These groups aren't average Northern Italians (who live mostly in Lombardy or Emilia-Romagna) and aren't more 'southern' genetically than average Iberians. Many Trentino people are closer to tthe main French cluster than to Portuguese, for example.

Southern Europeans, from Iberia to Balkans, don't vary that much in pigmentation IMO.

As far as I know the only Italians who are significantly lighter than mainstream Southern Euros are the ones from the Alpine regions of Italy.

Here in Brazil we have both Northern Italians from Veneto, Friuli and Italian Tyrol and recent Iberians (people who immigrated in the last 100 years and generally are full Iberian), the Italians look considerably lighter on average.

Bergamasques are significantly lighter than Portuguese from Alentejo (light eyes rate: >37% vs 13.85%) and still genetically southern-shifted compared to them...

https://i.imgur.com/OyNvcPj.png

[Rotterdam]

I think the North African/Moor blood plays a significant role, as even though it is miniscule, it’s dominant. Look at neanderthal genes in Europeans, it’s between 2-4% yet physical traits such as brow ridges still appear phenotypically on modern Europeans despite being such an insigificant amount.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Also compare England with Germany or Ireland with Denmark. The celtic look more brown haired with lighter skin.

But talking about facial features, iberians look more northern and western than all italians who have a lot of East Med and Dinarid traits. Even in North Italy we find a lot of people with hooked noses.
I actually agree the Iberians with no North African(Basques, Aragonians, Navarrese) have less MENA features or look more western than North Italians, but I'd say North Italians still look more western than S. Iberians despite S. Iberians being more western genetically.

I disagree with you and Bill that there's no N/S phenotype cline in Iberia, atleast in that S and W Iberia will have pure MENA passing people and the NE won't. I doubt you'll find large group pics like these(from Navarre) with absolutely no better or borderline passing in MENA people in Andalucia.

http://www.anaitasuna.com/balonmano/helvetia/plantilla/equipo.jpg

https://images.ladepeche.fr/api/v1/images/view/5c24f4a68fe56f1b1b6deb80/large/image.jpg

https://www.fenavoley.com/files/fnvoley/Doc_Fotos_Noticias_2019/Fotos_Web/SelCadFem_Navarv_090619A.jpg
(far right 2 are immigrants, this one does actually have 2 more MENA/borderline looking people but teams from S. Iberia would usually have a lot more)


Iberians are more western than northern Italians, not more northern.


https://image.ibb.co/fz0Qnz/Euro_PCA.jpg
Western is Northern. They have more WHG(and steppe than north Italians too). The arrow pointing toward WHGs would be between Brits and French_Basque, toward 30 not going left of Balts or Scandos.

[guezet]

Western is Northern.

North is where the north Swedish are. West and North are two different cardinal points.

[billErobreren]

Maybe but Navarre's borderline Basque though. It used to be Basque up until the French ended up with the Navarrese crown

[savvas]

I think some of your options are reasonable, but the Italian groups which are significantly lighter than Iberians are also lighter than Balkanites and Southern French imo. These are mostly groups living in Northeastern Italy, like Tyroleans, Friulans, some Alpine Venetians etc.

These groups aren't average Northern Italians (who live mostly in Lombardy or Emilia-Romagna) and aren't more 'southern' genetically than average Iberians. Many Trentino people are closer to tthe main French cluster than to Portuguese, for example.

Southern Europeans, from Iberia to Balkans, don't vary that much in pigmentation IMO.

As far as I know the only Italians who are significantly lighter than mainstream Southern Euros are the ones from the Alpine regions of Italy.

Here in Brazil we have both Northern Italians from Veneto, Friuli and Italian Tyrol and recent Iberians (people who immigrated in the last 100 years and generally are full Iberian), the Italians look considerably lighter on average.

Better question. Why are nordic-looking Central/Southern Italians like Samuele Sereni almost certainly genetically southern-shifted compared to Iberians like Alberto Contador?

http://www.ssarezzo.it/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/013-2.jpg
https://net-storage.tccstatic.com/storage/notiziariocalcio.com/img_notizie/thumb1/06/060b8434e530bd3899f4620ba8e1599a-20498-d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e.jpg
https://media-foto.tccstatic.com/storage/album/thumb1/b66246d28275dc59494c7e270ab2148b-34657-1495533121.jpeg

https://biografieonline.it/img/bio/a/Alberto_Contador.jpg
https://www.latimes.com/resizer/nZYVT_AdTt4zHEeKJUxqSI481fs=/800x0/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-tronc.s3.amazonaws.com/public/C6DX7NEC6RDU5EKRG7THRP33PQ.jpg
https://www.thinkingheads.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/alberto-contador-deporte-ciclismo-liderazgo-actitud-speaker-thinking-heads.jpg

[Jana]

I have been to northeast Italy around 60 times, and I see people call this lightest part of Italy.
I have to dissapoint you, except in Udine and around I mostly encountered southern European looking people.

Even the central euro looking ones like alpines, who are very common, are not particulary light.

Iberians are darkwashed on apricity, and Italians lightwashed.

[XenophobicPrussian]

North is where the north Swedish are. West and North are two different cardinal points.
No, "north" shifted is shifted towards Europe's natives, WHGs. If anything Irish would be a better proxy for northern Europeans as Swedes have a lot of eastern stuff, including recent Slavic and Finnish.

Maybe but Navarre's borderline Basque though. It used to be Basque up until the French ended up with the Navarrese crown
Okay you're right, good catch. They are literally just Basques.

https://i2.wp.com/mpbritt.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/K36-PCA-with-AncestryDNA-Data.png?ssl=1

[Aldaris]

Also compare England with Germany or Ireland with Denmark. The celtic look more brown haired with lighter skin.

But talking about facial features, iberians look more northern and western than ALL italians who have a lot of East Med and Dinarid traits. Even in North Italy we find a lot of people with hooked noses.

Yes, I agree with that. Even the darker Iberians look distinctly western European, while Italians often look pseudo-Jewish or something along those lines.

[XenophobicPrussian]

I have been to northeast Italy around 60 times, and I see people call this lightest part of Italy.
I have to dissapoint you, except in Udine and around I mostly encountered southern European looking people.

Even the central euro looking ones like alpines, who are very common, are not particulary light.

Iberians are darkwashed on apricity, and Italians lightwashed.
Whether they're particularly light or not has nothing to do with whether they're lighter than Iberians, lol. Nearly all studies show N. Italians lighter pigmented than Iberians.

I agree with you that North Italians are lightwashed though, they still look very southern European and look much closer to S. Italians than S. Germans(although despite them being slightly closer or about halfway genetically to Danes than to Calabrese, which is weird af).

[Jana]

Agree to some extent. I would say blondism and light eyes are more common in Italy than Spain, but in terms of facial features Iberians look more northern on average.

[Jana]

Whether they're particularly light or not has nothing to do with whether they're lighter than Iberians, lol. Nearly all studies show N. Italians lighter pigmented than Iberians.

I agree with you that North Italians are lightwashed though, they still look very southern European and look much closer to S. Italians than S. Germans(although despite them being slightly closer or about halfway genetically to Danes than to Calabrese, which is weird af).

Truth is until you get as north as Czech Republic, Europe is very brunet.
I lived in SW Germany, in Black Forest, and they were more like north italians (brunet) than like Czechs, who are significantly more blond. in color, not in features/look

I was in Austria many times, and they are mostly brunet. I live in Hungary, and they are still brunet.

[jmls]

I think some of your options are reasonable, but the Italian groups which are significantly lighter than Iberians are also lighter than Balkanites and Southern French imo. These are mostly groups living in Northeastern Italy, like Tyroleans, Friulans, some Alpine Venetians etc.

These groups aren't average Northern Italians (who live mostly in Lombardy or Emilia-Romagna) and aren't more 'southern' genetically than average Iberians. Many Trentino people are closer to tthe main French cluster than to Portuguese, for example.

Southern Europeans, from Iberia to Balkans, don't vary that much in pigmentation IMO.

As far as I know the only Italians who are significantly lighter than mainstream Southern Euros are the ones from the Alpine regions of Italy.

Here in Brazil we have both Northern Italians from Veneto, Friuli and Italian Tyrol and recent Iberians (people who immigrated in the last 100 years and generally are full Iberian), the Italians look considerably lighter on average.

Hmm actually, areas just as light as Friuli, Trentino etc. do exist in Northwest, like Bergamo, Como, Aosta...
So that, IMO, makes Northern Italians as a whole significantly lighter than the most Northern influenced parts of Iberia.

[Jana]

Hmm actually, areas just as light as Friuli, Trentino etc. do exist in Northwest, like Bergamo, Como, Aosta...
So that, IMO, makes Northern Italians as a whole significantly lighter than the most Northern influenced parts of Iberia.

I really doubt Friuli is ''significantly lighter'' than Pyreenean parts of Spain.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Truth is until you get as north as Czech Republic, Europe is very brunet.
I lived in SW Germany, in Black Forest, and they were more like north italians (brunet) than like Czechs, who are significantly more blond. in color, not in features/look

I was in Austria many times, and they are mostly brunet. I live in Hungary, and they are still brunet.
I agree, except the part about more like North Italians than Czechs. I would call Czechia very brunet, and SW Germany is lighter than the Czechia, I know you may have noticed different but I'd rather go by data than personal accounts. Even Swedes are whitewashed to an extent, really true blondism peaks in Europe at 35-38% in Finland, then Sweden, there's people who think Scandinavia is majority blonde.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/PSM_V52_D068_Relative_frequency_of_brunette_types_ in_germany.png/500px-PSM_V52_D068_Relative_frequency_of_brunette_types_ in_germany.png

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cp19OZfVYAAee4p.jpg

[Bellbeaking]

In Spain the Northern ancestry was Ancient from Beaker people. They where pretty dark but Dutch and Brits/Irish selected for lighter traits since then (as did Nordics). Recent Northern ancestry is what makes a population lighter not ancient Steppe DNA.

Imagine if Steppe people settled in Malta and wiped out the native Maltese, they would plot northern but would be dark featured

[savvas]

In Spain the Northern ancestry was Ancient from Beaker people. They where pretty dark.

Source?

[XenophobicPrussian]

Source?
https://genetiker.wordpress.com/pigmentation/

The academic papers that had Beakers on them said the same thing. I wouldn't call them dark though, just darker than modern N. Euros at around 50/50, so like Welsh or various central Europeans.

Determining pigmentation off SNPs(atleast currently) is bullshit though, especially since they keep finding new SNPs associated. Look at how blonde English are in that link, it's something like 80%, non-sensical. A lot of people with HERC/OCA2 don't even have blue eyes, so yeah, it's all bullshit, but that's the current science. Populations living 4k years ago being darker than modern populations does make sense though, and something has to explain the pigmentation differences between British Islanders and Scandinavians(genetically extremely similar). Bell Beakers being dark does that.

[billErobreren]

In Spain the Northern ancestry was Ancient from Beaker people. They where pretty dark but Dutch and Brits/Irish selected for lighter traits since then (as did Nordics). Recent Northern ancestry is what makes a population lighter not ancient Steppe DNA.

Imagine if Steppe people settled in Malta and wiped out the native Maltese, they would plot northern but would be dark featured

That's all that need be said. The Irish are not as blonde as Lithuanians on average but guess who's closer to Norwegians, Danes and Icelanders in the end.

But no, let's just fuzz over the few blue eyed blondes, gingers or whatever the fuck else they can muster and watch the Southerners fight it out. With their token TV and movie people. Can't wait :bored:

Because eye and hair should be all that matters.

[Bigsaul]

Swedes are more blonde than Belarusians, but more Southern genetically than them as Swedes have significantly more Neolithic and less mesolithic ancestry than the East Baltic States yet most Belarusians are Brunette or I could say Russians even

[MinervaItalica]

Iberians are lightwashed on apricity, and Italians darkwashed.

Fix'd

[Visage pâle]

Northern italian aren't that light. Look Salvini and Berlusconi.

[Tooting Carmen]

Northern italian aren't that light. Look Salvini and Berlusconi.

Indeed, many people like to promote the notion that N Italians look closer to Germans than to Greeks or Spaniards, which is really far from being the case.

[michal3141]

Swedes are more blonde than Belarusians, but more Southern genetically than them as Swedes have significantly more Neolithic and less mesolithic ancestry than the East Baltic States yet most Belarusians are Brunette or I could say Russians even

That's also interesting. Maybe some special Germanic genes ;)

[MinervaItalica]

Northern italian aren't that light. Look Salvini and Berlusconi.

Those are only two people and are not representative of the whole. Being light eyed, skinned or haired doesn't mean being closer to Germans.

[Bigsaul]

Indeed, many people like to promote the notion that N Italians look closer to Germans than to Greeks or Spaniards, which is really far from being the case.

They probadly look closer to Swiss than to Greeks altough.

[Visage pâle]

They probadly look closer to Swiss than to Greeks altough.

No way.

[Bigsaul]

No way.

Greeks are woggier than what Sikeliot and the likes tend to suggest. Even East Balkan look woggy compared to North Italians.

OK I figured out you were trolling.

In regards to topic title the foreign admixture in Italy comes from lighter sources (Germans, Celts, some Slavs, Gothic tribes) in Spain it was mostly French like sources with predominately brunette people IMO

[Visage pâle]

Greeks are woggier than what Sikeliot and the likes tend to suggest.

Greeks are normal southern european, they aren't so dark. Anyway swiss are lighter than french and obviously than northern italian.


Even East Balkan look woggy compared to North Italians.

You mean yougoslavian ? North Italians are comparable to serbian and darker than slovenian and even croatian.


In regards to topic title the foreign admixture in Italy comes from lighter sources (Germans, Celts, some Slavs, Gothic tribes) in Spain it was mostly French like sources with predominately brunette people IMO

All european countries received theses barbarian peoples.

[Adamastor]

Greeks are woggier than what Sikeliot and the likes tend to suggest. Even East Balkan look woggy compared to North Italians.

OK I figured out you were trolling.

In regards to topic title the foreign admixture in Italy comes from lighter sources (Germans, Celts, some Slavs, Gothic tribes) in Spain it was mostly French like sources with predominately brunette people IMO

Yes. I'm pretty familiar with all these groups ranging from Austrian Tyrol (mainstream Austrians are a totally different story) and Switzerland to Northern Italy, there's a cline and there's no significant difference in phenotypes, what changes is really the proportions. All types existent in Northern Italy exist in Tyrol and Switzerland, the main difference is the prevalence of lighter and darker types.


Bergamasques are significantly lighter than Portuguese from Alentejo (light eyes rate: >37% vs 13.85%) and still genetically southern-shifted compared to them...

https://i.imgur.com/OyNvcPj.png

It happens because, as other people said, Iberians northern type of ancestry was already ''dark''. I doubt that Celtiberians, for example, were predominantly blond, likely they were brunettes.

[Petalpusher]

There s de facto a dilemma associating lightness with being genetically more northern, because if we take the most genetically northern people who ever lived in Eurasia, as in the most removed from Africans, Asians and Australoid all at the same time, that would be the WHG's and they were dark haired, dark skin (probably less than what people imagine but still to modern Euro standards, dark skin), they just had blue eyes already. So it seems there s at least a time component involved, and maybe some more complex mechanisms with selection but certainly it isn't as simple as that.

It might look that way on average today, it just doesn't translate all the time in a linear fashion, even individually, the assumption if correct would be that for example native dark hair/eyes Norwegians should not plot with other Norwegians but the thing is, they absolutely do. You even routinely get siblings with different shade of skins, hair and eyes colors, yet they have the exact same millions of ancestors since the dawn of time. Yet no Africans or Asian newborn will ever come out looking as white European, so there s still a link but the amount of genes defining this are infinitely higher than for pigmentation, Albinos don't look white, and Asians with blue contact lenses don't look Euro.

Regardless i tend to agree Iberians have generally more northern bone structures, which is alone a complete different order of magnitude when it comes to the amount of genes involved for that, than those controlling pigmentation. there are certainly more genes acting up on some invisible features of one organ than those depigmenting your eyes, hair or skin, so that's all very relative and anecdotic in the scheme of a person's whole dna. It's like saying it's the color red that makes a car fast or slow, not the engine and the chassis, yet most fast cars are painted in red..humans associate that color to fast cars, we are mostly visual creatures, which is the worst of the worst tool in science to evaluate anything.

[Bellbeaking]

It happens because, as other people said, Iberians northern type of ancestry was already ''dark''. I doubt that Celtiberians, for example, were predominantly blond, likely they were brunettes.

Its older too, light features are selected against over time in a southern climate.

Also, Iberia is further south than North Italy, it stands to reason that they would be Darker regardless of deep ancestry.

[The One]

I’ve been to northern and central Italy and I passed quite easily and I have dark hair fair skin and amber mixed with light brown eyes, the north was slightly lighter but not drastically. I’ve never visited Spain but from what I’ve seen they are quite light indeed, i plan to visit Spain in the summer but again from what I’ve seen Spaniards as a whole are easily just as light as Italians, and Spaniards faces are usually quite distinctively western euro even if they have dark hair(especially the basques).

[alnortedelsur]

North Italians look considerably lighter than any Iberian including Basques. I wonder whether is it because the Northern Ancestry in Italians came mainly from Scandinavian like source and it was less recessive than the Gallic and Celtic ancestry of Iberians or simply because the Northern source of Spain was dark haired generally. (notice Southern French are also predominately dark haired and more similar to Iberians than other French.

We can't blame the minuscule North African ancestry for making Iberians darker when it's less than 6% on average and Iberians are almost 40% Northern European genetically which exceeds the level even of North Italy.

My guess is it's due to climate adaption and sexual dimorphism. Spain has less mountainous areas as North Italy and most inhabitants who live in the mountains didn't need dark alleles responsible for sun protection so they evolved a more Northern physical characteristic as opposed to Iberian Peninsular people who developed physical characteristics (short statue, dark hair, often olive skin to protect them from the Mediterranean climate.
Maybe in Italy men preferred blondes more than in Spain which resulted a higher demand for Northern traits as opposed of Spain where the opposite was common.

Here you can see Spain have excessive amounts of Northern DNA while the Italy has considerably less.

https://i.imgur.com/3YrlLqk.gif

French and Iberians seem tied togeter as usual on most maps

https://i.imgur.com/1rJdyer.png

What a load of crap. Italians as a whole are NOT lighter than Iberians. Northern Italians have just a bit higher frequency of blondism and light eyes than Iberians, central Italians are more or less on par, and south Italians are darker. Anything else are stupid Hollywood fairy tales.

[Lousianaboy]

We got ancient germanic ancestry in the north so this could be the answer in the south the people is drier than the Iberians

[Blondie]

Spaniards are lighter than italians.

[Aldaris]

What a load of crap. Italians as a whole are NOT lighter than Iberians. Northern Italians have just a bit higher frequency of blondism and light eyes than Iberians, central Italians are more or less on par, and south Italians are darker. Anything else are stupid Hollywood fairy tales.

Yes, not to mention their facial features. Perhaps more Italians, especially from the north, would pass better in countries like Germany and Austria, but unlike us, they also have a significant minority of people, who look flatly non-Europan.

[palm princess]

Spain was under Arabic rule centuries ago. That's maybe why?

[Visage pâle]

Spain was under Arabic rule centuries ago. That's maybe why?

Actually moorish blood among spanish is much older than during muslim rule.

[MinervaItalica]

Spaniards are lighter than italians.

Considering the two whole countries we are more or less the same, in fact we are both South Europeans.

[Roy]

What a great topic to provide an upcoming shitstorm :coffee:



Also compare England with Germany or Ireland with Denmark. The celtic look more brown haired with lighter skin.

But talking about facial features, iberians look more northern and western than ALL italians who have a lot of East Med and Dinarid traits. Even in North Italy we find a lot of people with hooked noses.

Yes, but there are some (more than people would like to think) even if it's rare - Iberians who could be confused for MENA.

[Roy]

Spaniards are lighter than italians.

In the first post it is specified that it is about Northern Italians. Either way most of Northern Italians are also dark haired and dark eyed so the difference with Iberians is not big at all.

[Roy]

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/pigmentation/

The academic papers that had Beakers on them said the same thing. I wouldn't call them dark though, just darker than modern N. Euros at around 50/50, so like Welsh or various central Europeans.

Determining pigmentation off SNPs(atleast currently) is bullshit though, especially since they keep finding new SNPs associated. Look at how blonde English are in that link, it's something like 80%, non-sensical. A lot of people with HERC/OCA2 don't even have blue eyes, so yeah, it's all bullshit, but that's the current science. Populations living 4k years ago being darker than modern populations does make sense though, and something has to explain the pigmentation differences between British Islanders and Scandinavians(genetically extremely similar). Bell Beakers being dark does that.


People forget about the power of epigenetics, certain genes may be present in the specimen but have low expression or are dormant.

[Catarinense1998]

Perfect thead to create trouble and discord between people. I think it is not OP's fault though.

[Roy]

I agree, except the part about more like North Italians than Czechs. I would call Czechia very brunet, and SW Germany is lighter than the Czechia, I know you may have noticed different but I'd rather go by data than personal accounts. Even Swedes are whitewashed to an extent, really true blondism peaks in Europe at 35-38% in Finland, then Sweden, there's people who think Scandinavia is majority blonde.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a8/PSM_V52_D068_Relative_frequency_of_brunette_types_ in_germany.png/500px-PSM_V52_D068_Relative_frequency_of_brunette_types_ in_germany.png

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cp19OZfVYAAee4p.jpg



I would not call Czechs majority brunette but men like this Czech are actually pretty common there.

https://media.licdn.com/dms/image/C4E03AQGvPlzKcBETMg/profile-displayphoto-shrink_200_200/0?e=1564617600&v=beta&t=8ZRdgUFhhZmkXuTh4W6SA31tIxTPdHHvTI-s2kZQIe4

[Ülev]

Se è vero che il fenotipo mediterraneo si trova in maggior concentrazione intorno al bacino del Mediterraneo (dal quale, del resto, prende il nome), è altrettanto vero che i popoli mediterranei possiedono molti altri fenotipi oltre a quello mediterraneo

Nord Italia :rockon:
https://youtu.be/dSy2DcATYUo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mo-Do

[Morena]

In Spain the Northern ancestry was Ancient from Beaker people. They where pretty dark but Dutch and Brits/Irish selected for lighter traits since then (as did Nordics). Recent Northern ancestry is what makes a population lighter not ancient Steppe DNA.

Imagine if Steppe people settled in Malta and wiped out the native Maltese, they would plot northern but would be dark featured


Its older too, light features are selected against over time in a southern climate.

Also, Iberia is further south than North Italy, it stands to reason that they would be Darker regardless of deep ancestry.

I think this is an interesting topic. I don't think OP is trying to troll.

1. I agree with Bellbeaking about everything
2. Moorish (I prefer North African) admixture is pretty old, coming in certain waves throughout history: the Phoenicians, the Carthaginians, the Romans (who brought north African legions), and then the Moors (that's why I prefer North African because Moor is a specific set of North African - Muslim). History didn't begin and end with the Moor.
3. Because of this, and due to proximity, by all means we should have more. However, as ancient as it is, it wouldn't surprise me if certain phenotype influences were cooked in over time.
4. The slightly darker pigmentation despite greater western genetic affinity probably has to do with sexual selection, darker founder populations, and little recent Germanic input.

[Bellbeaking]

Source?

See XenPrussian's reply

This study suggests Britons have selected for lighter traits quite intensely since then.
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2016/05/07/052084.full.pdf

It is also possible some genes for darker hair like variants of IRF4 also increased in number too(though this is mere personal speculation), as this gene contributes to dark hair, pale skin, Light eyes so would still provide necessary adaptations to a climate without as much sun. The only practical (non-sexual) reason for Blonde hair to be selected for is that associated genes also contribute to lighter skin AFAIK.

[Token]

It seems that there was a brutal selection for light pigmentation in Nordic BA or some related culture of Bronze Age Northern Europe, from where Germanic people started expanding south. North Italians seems to be significantly more Germanic than Iberians, and that might be the cause of this anomaly.

[Bigsaul]

Maybe It's not just a coincidence the Roman leading elite were mainly Norid and Faelid and looked different from the general people. These were offsprings of Germanic tribes who later admixed and intermarried with the locals. They were viewed like Gods among the peasant class so they started to worship golden hair and northern features. The same scenario happened in India where the Eastern brach of Indo Europeans lived. They looked very different from the dark skinned Veddic type of people and those Indians who still carry some Aryan genes are called Brahmins and other classes. Scheduled classes are the ones who managed to unmix with foreign aryans and these Indians are looked down due to their pure Dravidian features. The ancestors of Gypsyes were people like these. As we know the major elements of Romans clustered genetically with Sicilians so they by default looked mostly mediterranid with sometimes Oriental elements even due to influx from Byzantines

[Ouistreham]

A sizeable NW European admixture doesn't necessarily equate lighter hair.
On the other hand North Italy underwent (in post-Roman times) a significant demographic pressure from Central Europe. Which is not the case for Spain.


Maybe It's not just a coincidence the Roman leading elite were mainly Norid and Faelid and looked different from the general people. These were offsprings of Germanic tribes

The Romans had their heyday long before any significant Germanic tribe showed up south of the Alps.
But offspring of Indo-Europeans, obviously.

[Mans not hot]

A sizeable NW European admixture doesn't necessarily equate lighter hair.
On the other hand North Italy underwent (in post-Roman times) a significant demographic pressure from Central Europe. Which is not the case for Spain.



The Romans had their heyday long before any significant Germanic tribe showed up south of the Alps.
But offspring of Indo-Europeans, obviously.
Oh shit, you're back.

[Latinus]

Considering the two whole countries we are more or less the same, in fact we are both South Europeans.This.

Enviado de meu SM-G610M usando o Tapatalk

[PaleoEuropean]

Italy sent all their dark people to America.

[MinervaItalica]

A sizeable NW European admixture doesn't necessarily equate lighter hair.
On the other hand North Italy underwent (in post-Roman times) a significant demographic pressure from Central Europe. Which is not the case for Spain.



The Romans had their heyday long before any significant Germanic tribe showed up south of the Alps.
But offspring of Indo-Europeans, obviously.

Germanics were part of the elite only during the late Empire. This is one of the reasons why the empire is fallen. Multiculturalism brings nothing good.

Germanics were inepts to rule (see Romulus Augustulus)

[nafz]

Maybe It's not just a coincidence the Roman leading elite were mainly Norid and Faelid and looked different from the general people. These were offsprings of Germanic tribes who later admixed and intermarried with the locals. They were viewed like Gods among the peasant class so they started to worship golden hair and northern features. The same scenario happened in India where the Eastern brach of Indo Europeans lived. They looked very different from the dark skinned Veddic type of people and those Indians who still carry some Aryan genes are called Brahmins and other classes. Scheduled classes are the ones who managed to unmix with foreign aryans and these Indians are looked down due to their pure Dravidian features. The ancestors of Gypsyes were people like these. As we know the major elements of Romans clustered genetically with Sicilians so they by default looked mostly mediterranid with sometimes Oriental elements even due to influx from Byzantines

The most famous and glorious Roman emperors ie Julius Caesar and Augustus were native to the Rome region (Alba longa and Velletri respectively).

Germanic descend emperors came to power much later when the empire was in decline.

[Aren]

This is actually a false claim repeated so many times on anthroforas that most people seem to believe. "Northern"-like admixture, that is Steppe or Indo-European peaks in Northern Italy. Tuscany and some other parts of central Italy are on par with Iberians. Also, Northern Italians have some recent German/Central European admixture(although very little) that probably accounts for some of the lighter types found.

[Unchained]

North Italians are lighter than people here who have even more northern european DNA compared to Iberians. Sexual selection is the only possible explaination for such an unxpected (from a genetic point of view) abundance of light traits among them.

[Dick]

North Italians are lighter than people here who have even more northern european DNA compared to Iberians. Sexual selection is the only possible explaination for such an unxpected (from a genetic point of view) abundance of light traits among them.

I guess so. Specific Snps determine your physical traits which even includes height, facial features, eye color hair color etc. It has nothing to do with where one plots on a pca.

[Token]

This is actually a false claim repeated so many times on anthroforas that most people seem to believe. "Northern"-like admixture, that is Steppe or Indo-European peaks in Northern Italy. Tuscany and some other parts of central Italy are on par with Iberians. Also, Northern Italians have some recent German/Central European admixture(although very little) that probably accounts for some of the lighter types found.

This is what i get for them using the same setup.

[1] "distance%=1.5876"
Italian_Bergamo

Bell_Beaker_NLD,42.8
Bell_Beaker_ITA,31.4
Anatolia_Isparta_EBA,25.4
Levant_PPNC,0.4

[1] "distance%=1.2474"
Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha

Bell_Beaker_NLD,45.2
Iberia_North_CA,18.4
Bell_Beaker_ITA,18.2
Anatolia_Isparta_EBA,10.2
Levant_PPNC,6.2
MAR_Iberomaurusian,1.2
Yoruba,0.6

[caviezel]

people from Asti and Vercelli seem to plot more North than Crema or Bergamo. Yet I was at a military fair last month and there was a large contingent of people from places like Bergamo, Crema, Brescia etc.
they kind of look more Mitteleuropean than Piedmontese, with more rounded heads, larger faces, smaller noses, more chiseled bone structure etc. apparently genotype doesn't always linearly correlate with phenotype. A more extreme example is Ashkenazi Jews who look distinctly more Central Euro influenced than Sardinians despite plotting a lot more South.

[Percivalle]

people from Asti and Vercelli seem to plot more North than Crema or Bergamo.


People from Asti and Vercelli don't usually plot more north than Bergamo. The Piedmontese who plot north of Bergamo are those of the Alpine areas from the province of Cuneo and Turin, especially those from Occitan Valleys.

[caviezel]

still they look less Mitteleuropean than Bergamo. Occitan was spoken in the city of Turin and Eastern Piedmont as well in the Middle Ages (Sermoni Subalpini).

[L'Enfant]

I think Northern Italy had a significant influence from the Germanic people from Central Europe. Iberians got some North Germanic ancestry from Visigoths and the Suevi. Most Northwestern Iberians got Celtic ancestry from the pre-Roman period.

[Nurzat]

four corners of Europe mix:

Spain is homogeneous from north to south, Italy is not.

-----------------------------------
"sample": "Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha:Average",
"fit": 1.1649,

"Irish": 48.33,
"Sardinian": 40.83,
"Greek_Crete": 10.83,
"Lithuanian": 0,
-----------------------------------
"sample": "Spanish_Andalucia:Average",
"fit": 1.4787,

"Irish": 46.67,
"Sardinian": 36.67,
"Greek_Crete": 16.67,
"Lithuanian": 0,
-----------------------------------
"sample": "Spanish_Galicia:Average",
"fit": 2.707,

"Irish": 50.83,
"Sardinian": 34.17,
"Greek_Crete": 15,
"Lithuanian": 0,
-----------------------------------
"sample": "Italian_Bergamo:Average",
"fit": 0.9813,

"Irish": 40.83,
"Greek_Crete": 30.83,
"Sardinian": 28.33,
"Lithuanian": 0,
-----------------------------------
"sample": "Italian_Tuscan:Average",
"fit": 0.7934,

"Greek_Crete": 52.5,
"Irish": 28.33,
"Sardinian": 19.17,
"Lithuanian": 0,
-----------------------------------
"sample": "Italian_South:Average",
"fit": 1.2774,

"Greek_Crete": 80.83,
"Irish": 10,
"Sardinian": 9.17,
"Lithuanian": 0,
-----------------------------------
"sample": "Romanian:Average",
"fit": 1.2847,
"Greek_Crete": 41.67,
"Lithuanian": 29.17,
"Irish": 20,
"Sardinian": 9.17,
-----------------------------------
"sample": "Custom:Nurzat",
"fit": 1.882,

"Lithuanian": 43.33%
"Greek_Crete": 32.5%
"Irish": 20%
"Sardinian": 4.17%
-----------------------------------
"sample": "German:Average",
"fit": 0.6426,

"Irish": 74.17,
"Lithuanian": 15.83,
"Sardinian": 6.67,
"Greek_Crete": 3.33,

[Ancap]

Because we Italians are white, unlikely Spaniards

[jmls]

Probably adaptation to climate. The winter of Northern Italy is very British-like.
Sure, Northern Italians are lighter than Northern Spaniards, but I’d say an average Southern Italian is less western looking than an average Southern Spaniard, so I don’t know which group would satisfy a Nordicist more:tongue

[renaissance12]

Italy sent all their dark people to America.

to increase the average IQ...

[PaleoEuropean]

to increase the average IQ...

Arabs aren't smart

[renaissance12]

Arabs aren't smart


We say the same for the Vikings..

[PaleoEuropean]

We say the same for the Vikings..

blah blah blah, nobody cares about your queer obsession with the Vikings dude, shits played out.

[alnortedelsur]

Probably adaptation to climate. The winter of Northern Italy is very British-like.
Sure, Northern Italians are lighter than Northern Spaniards, but I’d say an average Southern Italian is less western looking than an average Southern Spaniard, so I don’t know which group would satisfy a Nordicist more:tongue

Northern Spain also has British-like winters, and most of the interior of the Iberian peninsula has a continental climate with very cold winters.

[renaissance12]

blah blah blah, nobody cares about your queer obsession with the Vikings dude, shits played out.

It is so clear you don't like reality and your only source of knowledge is the "marvel nonsense".
Besides, you don't deserve better..

[renaissance12]

Northern Spain also has British-like winters, and most of the interior of the Iberian peninsula has a continental climate with very cold winters.


North Italy.... 35% flat... 30% Hills...35% Mountains ( above 800 meters )

60% of the people live in flat area..


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/Altimetria_Italia.svg/1200px-Altimetria_Italia.svg.png

[Zroota]

Isn't it because some Italians have Germanic ancestry, such as those near the Alps?

[Libertas]

Isn't it because some Italians have Germanic ancestry, such as those near the Alps?

So do Spaniards...Visigoths and Portuguese...Suevi.

[renaissance12]

This is the Roman LIMES...Germany

https://www.herald-union.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/P17Entrance.jpg

http://www.kargi.de/Images/History/Rom/Limes.jpg

The Germanic "tribes" settled south of LIMES around the fall of the Roman empire.

[Regnera]

I have been to northeast Italy around 60 times, and I see people call this lightest part of Italy.
I have to dissapoint you, except in Udine and around I mostly encountered southern European looking people.

Even the central euro looking ones like alpines, who are very common, are not particulary light.

Iberians are darkwashed on apricity, and Italians lightwashed.

I think both Italians and Iberians are light washed and darkwashed by different members.

[Felipe]

Better question. Why are nordic-looking Central/Southern Italians like Samuele Sereni almost certainly genetically southern-shifted compared to Iberians like Alberto Contador?

http://www.ssarezzo.it/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/013-2.jpg
https://net-storage.tccstatic.com/storage/notiziariocalcio.com/img_notizie/thumb1/06/060b8434e530bd3899f4620ba8e1599a-20498-d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e.jpg
https://media-foto.tccstatic.com/storage/album/thumb1/b66246d28275dc59494c7e270ab2148b-34657-1495533121.jpeg

https://biografieonline.it/img/bio/a/Alberto_Contador.jpg
https://www.latimes.com/resizer/nZYVT_AdTt4zHEeKJUxqSI481fs=/800x0/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-tronc.s3.amazonaws.com/public/C6DX7NEC6RDU5EKRG7THRP33PQ.jpg
https://www.thinkingheads.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/alberto-contador-deporte-ciclismo-liderazgo-actitud-speaker-thinking-heads.jpg

For The same reason that a dark northern european Guy like Colin farrell will be more genetically northern than this italian dude and than any other spanish or italian blonde person

[Tietar]

Better question. Why are nordic-looking Central/Southern Italians like Samuele Sereni almost certainly genetically southern-shifted compared to Iberians like Alberto Contador?

http://www.ssarezzo.it/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/013-2.jpg
https://net-storage.tccstatic.com/storage/notiziariocalcio.com/img_notizie/thumb1/06/060b8434e530bd3899f4620ba8e1599a-20498-d41d8cd98f00b204e9800998ecf8427e.jpg
https://media-foto.tccstatic.com/storage/album/thumb1/b66246d28275dc59494c7e270ab2148b-34657-1495533121.jpeg

https://biografieonline.it/img/bio/a/Alberto_Contador.jpg
https://www.latimes.com/resizer/nZYVT_AdTt4zHEeKJUxqSI481fs=/800x0/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-tronc.s3.amazonaws.com/public/C6DX7NEC6RDU5EKRG7THRP33PQ.jpg
https://www.thinkingheads.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/alberto-contador-deporte-ciclismo-liderazgo-actitud-speaker-thinking-heads.jpg

Because Alberto Contador is not full iberian, is a unusual dark guy as you can see him in this numerous group in the center

https://cdn.autobild.es/sites/navi.axelspringer.es/public/styles/mosaic_default_v2/public/media/image/2016/02/510961-jornadas-pedaladas-solidarias-citroen.jpg?itok=-a9nh1J8

Neither Samuele is full italian

[Pansarkamrat]

Light Eyes dont come from Nordic admix it comes from WHG

[Regnera]

Light Eyes dont come from Nordic admix it comes from WHG

But Iberians also have more WHG than Italians.

[Calpurnius]

"NW Euro" in that picture is the result of a combination of ancestral populations, some of which were definitely not light. The fact that Sardinians score as much as much of east Europe should be a clear sign of this.
Both in this and in PCAs what drives Iberians particularly "northwards" compared to Italians is WHG related input. Now while WHGs did have high frequency of blue eyes, in practice middle neolithic Iberian farmers which constitute by far the major ancestral component of modern Iberians were quite dark. In fact, I'm pretty sure Iberian farmers as a result of this mixing and of climate were even darker than other farmer groups in Europe.

That being said, looking at something more "recent" like bronze age steppe-related ancestry which is more reasonably correlated with lighter traits, north Italy does seem to have more overall, whether ancient or mediated by more recent Germanic introgression, but in the rest of Italy goes down quite quickly. This seems to correlate more or less with light hair/eyes maps I've seen.

https://i.imgur.com/BwQYUKD.png

[21993]

1) Italy is usually cooler than Iberian peninsula.
2) Italians have relatively more Steppe ancestry.

[Tenma de Pegasus]

Because Alberto Contador is not full iberian, is a unusual dark guy as you can see him in this numerous group in the center

https://cdn.autobild.es/sites/navi.axelspringer.es/public/styles/mosaic_default_v2/public/media/image/2016/02/510961-jornadas-pedaladas-solidarias-citroen.jpg?itok=-a9nh1J8

Neither Samuele is full italian

He really stand out

[trebil]

.

That being said, looking at something more "recent" like bronze age steppe-related ancestry which is more reasonably correlated with lighter traits, north Italy does seem to have more overall, whether ancient or mediated by more recent Germanic introgression, but in the rest of Italy goes down quite quickly. This seems to correlate more or less with light hair/eyes maps I've seen.

https://i.imgur.com/BwQYUKD.png

What's the source of this?

Sintashta culture is widely regarded as the origin of the Indo-Iranian languages, not of the Indo-European ones.

[Calpurnius]

What's the source of this?

Sintashta culture is widely regarded as the origin of the Indo-Iranian languages, not of the Indo-European ones.
Quick g25 based model I ran myself, I chose Sintashta because it seems like a good generic and relatively recent proxy for steppe related ancestry across Europe, seems to work somewhat better than using Yamnaya itself as far Europeans are concerned.

[trebil]

Quick g25 based model I ran myself, I chose Sintashta because it seems like a good generic and relatively recent proxy for steppe related ancestry across Europe, seems to work somewhat better than using Yamnaya itself as far Europeans are concerned.

Okay, so very subjective.

Sintashta is a 1/5 EEF, I struggle to see how Sintashta can be a better proxy for steppe related ancestry across Europe than using Yamnaya.

https://i.imgur.com/I45LtxL.png

Only some Alps have considerably more Sintashta than Iberians.


https://i.imgur.com/cRVzqv2.png


https://i.imgur.com/n7wUAW5.png

https://i.imgur.com/BczvgKr.png

[Calpurnius]

Okay, so very subjective.

Sintashta is a 1/5 EEF, I struggle to see how Sintashta can be a better proxy for steppe related ancestry across Europe than using Yamnaya.



Point is that when dealing with Italians and Iberians, steppe-related ancestry essentially arrived already with EEF enriched peoples for both, Yamnaya peoples themselves didn't straight up arrive into either peninsulas unmixed, so using a more proximate source can be better for the fit. If you don't like Sintashta you may use Yamnaya itself or similar and the results are more or less similar though probably with slightly higher errors, at least as far as using the same model for both peninsulas goes. The point wasn't getting some fine detail model of either populations, but more about capturing the gradient, ceteris paribus.

[trebil]

Point is that when dealing with Italians and Iberians, steppe-related ancestry essentially arrived already with EEF enriched peoples for both, Yamnaya peoples themselves didn't straight up arrive into either peninsulas unmixed, so using a more proximate source can be better for the fit. If you don't like Sintashta you may use Yamnaya itself or similar and the results are more or less similar though probably with slightly higher errors, at least as far as using the same model for both peninsulas goes. The point wasn't getting some fine detail model of either populations, but more about capturing the gradient, ceteris paribus.

imo the point is only one and is the only one possible, the Iberians have more WHG on average than the Italians but Iberians haven't more steppe than Italians. Which is why in the PCAs Iberians are more northwest than Italians. Southern Italians have both less WHG and steppe than Iberians. Then I don't give a shit about who's more swarthy. I find it hard to think that there are great differences between Iberians and Italians, just as there are between Iberians and Swedes and Italians and Norwegians.


https://i.imgur.com/dCiABe2.png

https://i.imgur.com/btd4Bvn.png

https://i.imgur.com/c4DIK5v.png

[Calpurnius]

imo the point is only one and is the only one possible, the Iberians have more WHG on average than the Italians but Iberians haven't more steppe than Italians. Which is why in the PCAs Iberians are more northwest than Italians
indeed, that was pretty much my point, PCA "northerness" of Iberians or some vague clusters like "NW European" cannot be correlated with "northerness" in terms of (modern) phenotype as this distant source, WHG, causing a good part of this phenomenon, was in fact hardly "nordic"
steppe related ancestry remains fundamentally the best proxy I guess if one wants to correlate observed frequency of lighter traits in Europe with some ancestral component; maybe EHG too though not as well; Poland Corded Ware seems to fit the bill the best from my few experiments

[aherne]

Iberia stands at the fringe of Europe, so it was least affected by Aryan invasion(s). Italian islands (Sicilia, Sardinia, Corsica), on the other hand, were even less affected... Iberians are much more homogeneous while Italians are extremely varied.

Pretty hard to tell who is lighter, but without a shred of doubt Italians have more "Nordids" than Iberians.

[Erronkari]

I think some of your options are reasonable, but the Italian groups which are significantly lighter than Iberians are also lighter than Balkanites and Southern French imo. These are mostly groups living in Northeastern Italy, like Tyroleans, Friulans, some Alpine Venetians etc.

These groups aren't average Northern Italians (who live mostly in Lombardy or Emilia-Romagna) and aren't more 'southern' genetically than average Iberians. Many Trentino people are closer to tthe main French cluster than to Portuguese, for example.

Southern Europeans, from Iberia to Balkans, don't vary that much in pigmentation IMO.

As far as I know the only Italians who are significantly lighter than mainstream Southern Euros are the ones from the Alpine regions of Italy.

Here in Brazil we have both Northern Italians from Veneto, Friuli and Italian Tyrol and recent Iberians (people who immigrated in the last 100 years and generally are full Iberian), the Italians look considerably lighter on average.

This comment describes perfectly the comparison between both folks as whole.

[reboun]

I can think of a couple of reasons for this:

1) Iberia is a more sunny and warmer geography than Italy. Genes who are responsible for pigmentation can evolve as time passes by according to the environment where the person (or people) lives in. Probably, most Iberians' pigmentation evolved to halt strong sun rays which as the potential to burn their skin.

2) Spaniards and Portuguese had more colonies in Africa, South Asia and South America than Italy has. After those colonies earned their freedom, so many people from the colonies migrated to the imperial country (Spain ,Portugal and Italy in this case). Immigrants have an impact on average skin colour of the land they live but since people with immigrant background cannot be included in regional averages, they would not change the ancestry percentages of the country they live in.