R1b frequency in West Asians

[Zroota]

Thoughts?
https://i.postimg.cc/59TNTYm5/Untitled.png

Full list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_populations_of_the_Near_East

I expected Turks, Iranians, Georgians and Cypriots to have more frequent amounts, especially more than the Assyrians -- I find it odd that the secluded, historically mountain-dwelling, Semitic-speaking, Assyrians fare a higher percentage than these ethnic groups. R1b is also surprisingly low in Lebanese people, who have had contact with many different Indo-European peoples in the past, including the Greeks, Romans and the French.

[Crimson Winds]

It is even exaggerated for Turks, they around %10-15 except the Black Sea region. I guess people from there overrepresented.

[Antimatter]

First of all there are many ethnicities in the chart that are not West Asian (e.g Algerians, Sudanese, Copts). I think using small samples is a big error. That's why a sample of 48 showing R1b is 29.2% is not reliable at all, for a sample to be more accurate to the true frequency IMO it should be at least 200+ taken from all over the country/community. Instead, this Sample was taken from Assyrian community in Iran.

88904

[Rico33]

What about the Amerindians? They have it too sometimes and I don't think they have anything to do with indo european languages.

[Blondie]

This r1b type belonged to armenians, hittites.

[Zroota]

First of all there are many ethnicities in the chart that are not West Asian (e.g Algerians, Sudanese, Copts). I think using small samples is a big error. That's why a sample of 48 showing R1b is 29.2% is not reliable at all, for a sample to be more accurate to the true frequency IMO it should be at least 200+ taken from all over the country/community. Instead, this Sample was taken from Assyrian community in Iran.

88904
Assyrians from Iran are still ethnically Assyrian though. They may have minor Iranian admixture, but it's very distant. Either way, it's a taboo for an Assyrian to marry or intermix with a Muslim (since Iranians are predominantly Islamic).


This r1b type belonged to armenians, hittites.
Correct. We had intermingled with them in the past (Armenians much recently though). And Hittites may have been 'absorbed' into our population (as well as into modern Turks and Levantines). So us having R1b may be because a few us have Armenian and Hittite ancestry.

[Zroota]

What about the Amerindians? They have it too sometimes and I don't think they have anything to do with indo european languages.
Perhaps it's because many Amerindians today may have some European blood? It makes sense considering the colonisation.

[Brutus]

Aside from Turkey and Iran, the Levant has a high percentage of R1b. R1b was found in like 15% of the Syrian population, 17% of Jordanians, 8% of Lebanese people and 9% of the Palestinians. But still most subclades are either R-Z2103 or R-V88, the western clades are rare and you can find them spread scarcely in Lebanon and Palestine.

[Kmakkmak]

I not be surprised if Assyrian Royal is R1b.

[Zroota]

Aside from Turkey and Iran, the Levant has a high percentage of R1b. R1b was found in like 15% of the Syrian population, 17% of Jordanians, 8% of Lebanese people and 9% of the Palestinians. But still most subclades are either R-Z2103 or R-V88, the western clades are rare and you can find them spread scarcely in Lebanon and Palestine.
8% and 9% is not a "high percentage" though.

[Rocinante]

lol but which subclades they get? V88? Z2103? They get non-western clades.

[PaleoEuropean]

I think its highly exaggerated for Dead Sea Arabs.

[Brutus]

8% and 9% is not a "high percentage" though.

My fault, I should have phrased it better. What I meant to convey was that the rates are relatively high compared to some West Asians and Arabs as a whole (Including North Africans). The percentages are higher among Syrians and Jordanians, but they're moderate when speaking on the overall population distribution.

[Brutus]

lol but which subclades they get? V88? Z2103? They get non-western clades.

I do not know for the others, but in the Levant there are western clades. The majority is Z2103 and then a minority of V88 and western clades. I have seen multiple samples in the Lebanon study that were on R-P312 > U152 and R-DF27. The possible explanation for the first is that R-U152 men either arrived with the crusades or during the Roman times. R-DF27 is clearly Western European and it's most definitely a crusader clade. Another interesting thing I found is that these clades were exclusively found in Druze, Sunnis and Shiites.

[Rocinante]

If any western asian have one of this clades:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e4/9f/7d/e49f7d12506c5f737b6a4e7add23e7fc.jpg

Is a true R1b. If not, they will be inferior.

[Brutus]

(By mistake)

[Dr_Maul]

Most R1b in West Asia is “native” i.e in Hittites, Armenians etc. I think a minor amount, especially in Kurds, is from IE migrations, and a second small amount in the Levant is from Crusaders. Without known clades however it’s impossible to tell

[Brutus]

If any western asian have one of this clades:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e4/9f/7d/e49f7d12506c5f737b6a4e7add23e7fc.jpg

Is a true R1b. If not, they will be inferior.

I guess every man under Z2103 is not a real R1b. :picard2::coffee: Logic.

[Rocinante]

I guess every man under Z2103 is not a real R1b. :picard2::coffee: Logic.

That's a Negro-Med clade.

[Kamal900]

Most R1b in West Asia is “native” i.e in Hittites, Armenians etc. I think a minor amount, especially in Kurds, is from IE migrations, and a second small amount in the Levant is from Crusaders. Without known clades however it’s impossible to tell

Indeed. While the Hitites were an Indo-European group, they're more or less genetically native Anatolians similar to the Iranic peoples of Iran that are predominatly genetically natives to Iran from pre-Iranic groups of that region and so on. The R1b clades in middle easterners aren't the same as those found in Europe.

[Brutus]

From the Lebanon study for the Y-chromosomal variance, it yielded 86 R1b samples. It appears 67 were R-Z2103 (77%), around 12 were R-V88 (14%) and the 7 left were all under R-P312 (8%).
Historically, R-V88 is quite old in the Levant and it dates to the Neolithic somewhere around 9000 - 5000 BCE. R-Z2103 likely came with the Hittites and Mitanni during the middle bronze age, somewhere around 2000 - 1200 BCE. And R-P312 came most likely during crusades but R-U152 was also carried by the Romans.

I imagine this also applies to other Levantines.

[Eline]

Indeed. While the Hitites were an Indo-European group, they're more or less genetically native Anatolians similar to the Iranic peoples of Iran that are predominatly genetically natives to Iran from pre-Iranic groups of that region and so on. The R1b clades in middle easterners aren't the same as those found in Europe.Western Iranics are just native to Western Iran and Kurdistan. Proto-Western Iranian evolved in their native homeland. Why? Very easy, they found archaic NorthWestern Iranian component called 'CIC'.

Also, I always take the Yezidi Kurds for example. They are the NorthWest Iranic people with the least non-Iranic DNA in them. Kurds are also relatively pure, but Yezidi Kurds are even more pure than other Kurds. Other Iranics are also Muslim and mixed with other Muslims from the region. Persians mixed a lot with people from (South)Central Asia.

So the 'purest' NorthWest Iranic people are the Yezidi Kurds and it seems that they are also the 'most native' people of NorthWest Asia/Kurdistan.

a) When we take DNA of the Yezidi Kurds and also pan-Iranic 'CIC' component we have to conclude that West Iranian homeland has to be NorthWest Asia.

b) Also the language of NorthWest Iranians is closely related to the Sumerians, Hurrians etc.
c) Ancient customs and religion is also connect to NorthWest Asia.

Ancient Aryans such as the Mitanni and the Medes were not much different from the modern people. Like modern West Iranian people, ancient Aryan Medes were very native to their original homeland in NorthWest Asia.

[Eline]

By the way, there is also a lot diversity in J2a. Iranic/Kurdic (Aryan) J2a can be very different from J2a from the Levant etc.

[Kamal900]

Western Iranics are just native to Western Iran and Kurdistan. Proto-Western Iranian evolved in their native homeland. Why? Very easy, they found archaic NorthWestern Iranian component called 'CIC'.

Also, I always take the Yezidi Kurds for example. They are the NorthWest Iranic people with the least non-Iranic DNA in them. Kurds are also relatively pure, but Yezidi Kurds are even more pure than other Kurds. Other Iranics are also Muslim and mixed with other Muslims from the region. Persians mixed to much with people from South Central Asia.

So the 'purest' NorthWest Iranic people are the Yezidi Kurds and it seems that they are also the most native people of NorthWest Asia/Kurdistan.

When we take DNA of the Yezidi Kurds and also pan-Iranic CIC component we have to conclude that West Iranian homeland has to be NorthWest Asia.

Also the language of NorthWest Iranians is closely related to the Sumerians, Hurrians etc.
Ancient customs and religion is also connect to NorthWest Asia.

Ancient Aryans such as the Mitanni and the Medes were not much different from the modern people. Like modern West Iranian people, ancient Aryan Medes were very native to their original homeland in NorthWest Asia.

Well, I don't know about the language connection with Sumerian and so on, but I do agree that Iranians, both ancient and modern, in the middle east were/are predominately genetically natives in west asia.

[Kyp]

By the way, there is also a lot diversity in J2a. Iranic/Kurdic (Aryan) J2a can be very different from J2a from the Levant etc.

Kurdic doesn't exist. Kurdish is a part of Iranic.

[Eline]

Well, I don't know about the language connection with Sumerian and so on, but I do agree that Iranians, both ancient and modern, in the middle east were/are predominately genetically natives in west asia.Also, it very laughable when people are looking for the non-local DNA in the ancient samples of the ancient West Asian cultures. And everytime they are disappointed.

But how naïve can you be? Of course you will find mostly West Asian DNA in the ancient samples of Mitanni, the Hittites or the Medes. Those cultures were located in West Asia and related to other local NorthWest Asian cultures.
Of course the ancients were similar to the modern people. That's why those people who called themselves Aryans in Media and Persia were very similar to their descendants in Kurdistan and Iran.

[Eline]

Kurdic doesn't exist. Kurdish is a part of Iranic.It is possible that Kurdic J2a is more 'archaic' than the Iranic J2a. A lot J2a in Iran is from Zagros Mountains and therefore I say Kurdic to emphasize its 'origin'

[Kamal900]

From the Lebanon study for the Y-chromosomal variance, it yielded 86 R1b samples. It appears 67 were R-Z2103 (77%), around 12 were R-V88 (14%) and the 7 left were all under R-P312 (8%).
Historically, R-V88 is quite old in the Levant and it dates to the Neolithic somewhere around 9000 - 5000 BCE. R-Z2103 likely came with the Hittites and Mitanni during the middle bronze age, somewhere around 2000 - 1200 BCE. And R-P312 came most likely during crusades but R-U152 was also carried by the Romans.

I imagine this also applies to other Levantines.

I myself could be an R1b according to MyTrueAncestry Y-DNA prediction which both R1b or J1 are the most likely haplogroups I would belong to.

[Rocinante]

I myself could be an R1b according to MyTrueAncestry Y-DNA prediction which both R1b or J1 are the most likely haplogroups I would belong to.

That MTA haplogroup prediction suck, use MorleyDNA and Yseq.

[Kyp]

I myself could be an R1b according to MyTrueAncestry Y-DNA prediction which both R1b or J1 are the most likely haplogroups I would belong to.

what about trying Morley?

[Kamal900]

what about trying Morley?

It doesn't work for FTDNA unfortunately. Only those with 23andMe and others.

[Kamal900]

That MTA haplogroup prediction suck, use MorleyDNA and Yseq.

Yeah, but it doesn't work for FTDNA.

[Eline]

Well, I don't know about the language connection with Sumerian
Sumerian, Hurrian, Iranic are all ergative languages. All those languages are related to each other.

Turkic and Arabic + other ancient Semitic dialects had no ergative construction in their grammar.

[Rocinante]

Yeah, but it doesn't work for FTDNA.

I can do a lecture of Y-DNA, I'm kind of an expert in that, technically what the Morley tool does but each SNP using haplotree. Want me to do it for you?

[Kamal900]

I can do a lecture of Y-DNA, I'm kind of an expert in that, technically what the Morley tool does but each SNP using haplotree. Want me to do it for you?

If you can then yes. How can I send you my raw data?

[Kyp]

If you can then yes. How can I send you my raw data?

Can't you convert your data?

[Kamal900]

Can't you convert your data?

I don't think there is a way for me to convert my FTDNA raw data.

[Kamal900]

Can't you convert your data?

It didn't work, 7abiby. The thing is that they only tested 22 of my chromosomes rather than the rest which is crucial for Y-dna prediction and so on, and thus, it's all for naught. Thanks for helping me out though.

[Zroota]

Indeed. While the Hitites were an Indo-European group, they're more or less genetically native Anatolians similar to the Iranic peoples of Iran that are predominatly genetically natives to Iran from pre-Iranic groups of that region and so on. The R1b clades in middle easterners aren't the same as those found in Europe.
Didn't R1b originate in West Asia though?

[Zroota]

Sumerian, Hurrian, Iranic are all ergative languages. All those languages are related to each other.

Turkic and Arabic + other ancient Semitic dialects had no ergative construction in their grammar.
Modern Assyrian Aramaic has split ergativity btw.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_Neo-Aramaic#Ergativity

[Eline]

Modern Assyrian Aramaic has split ergativity btw.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_Neo-Aramaic#ErgativitySpit ergativity is very different from the 'real' ergativity. Ancient Aramaic or other Semitic dialects don't have that.




Historically, Aramaic (Semitic) is nominative-accusative, and ergativity developed through contact with ergative Iranian languages, especially Kurdish, which is spoken by the Muslim population of the region.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0024384111002361

[Eline]

bad connection to this forum results in double posts

[Eline]

double post