Is R1a underestimated in Romania ?

[Jana]

The Romanian dna project has a very high rate of ethnic minorities, around 25% of their project, possibly higher are Jewish diaspora from America. Would be interesting to see how much higher their R1a would be without such members.

In this thread almost every second Romanian is R1a, and it is super common in Wallachian samples too.
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6722-Romanian-23andme

On TA quite a few Romanian members belong to R1a.

So could the real number be higher than what official estimates say ?

[Seya]

On TA i think only Carpat is R1a

[Jana]

On TA i think only Carpat is R1a

Aherne and Zmey (if you count him) too

[Nurzat]

the friends I tested with back in 2011, both from Moldova region (paternal Botoșani county and Neamț county) are R1a1a.

here are the YDNA hg of my Romanian matches on GedMATCH, I seem to only get these 6 ones in my top 500 (I'd like to find a way to filter out the Americans and the Canadians, they fill my list because of my Ukrainian side, a lot of Western Ukrainians migrated to North America a century ago, at the collapse of the Austrian Empire):

3x I2a2
1x R1b1b2a1a1
1x E-M5021
1x E-M35

[Jana]

^^^thanks

On 23andme and gedmatch almost 80% of my Croat matches are I2-din.
So I think 35% of I2a in Croatia is big underestimation too, I think it is much more than that and that we are much more homogenous.
Previous studies gave us more I2a and it went down with every single update.

[Seya]

Aherne and Zmey (if you count him) too

Aherne is german, has german father and zmey is from republic of moldova

[Jana]

Aherne is german, has german father and zmey is from republic of moldova

His type of R1a has nothing to do with Germanic people though, but has subclade common for eastern europe. It could be local.
From what I remember he cluster with Serbs like typical Translvanian Romanian :p

[Seya]

His type of R1a has nothing to do with Germanic people though, but has subclade common for eastern europe. It could be local.
From what I remember he cluster with Serbs like typical Translvanian Romanian :p

Well i’m sure there are a lot of R1a in Germany too :) but could be

[Dragoon]

They have less R1a than I thought.

[Ayetooey]

Checked relative list.

R1a=2
R1b-L23=1
J2a=1
J2b=1

[Zmey Gorynych]

His type of R1a has nothing to do with Germanic people though, but has subclade common for eastern europe. It could be local.
From what I remember he cluster with Serbs like typical Translvanian Romanian :p
What branch is he? M458 or Z280?

[Jana]

What branch is he? M458 or Z280?

I think he is under Z280

[Jana]

Maybe there is sample bias in anthrogenica thread, simply more R1a than average but it's interesting especially in Wallachia
Truth be told minorities like Hungarians and Ukrainians should increase R1a in Romanians because they have more of it than they, but it is still interesting high frequency of R1a among those Romanian samples

[Zmey Gorynych]

Maybe there is sample bias in anthrogenica thread, simply more R1a than average but it's interesting especially in Wallachia
It could be that, a few more people who are R1a got tested. We wont know for sure until a conclusive study is conducted - say a dozen villages from each region get tested.

[Carpatz]

It could be that, a few more people who are R1a got tested. We wont know for sure until a conclusive study is conducted - say a dozen villages from each region get tested.

Too bad there's no comprehensive study as far as I know. The Ftdna project for example is a shitpile. Over half of the members are American Jews :picard2:. It seems like there's a lack of interest among Romanians.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/romania/surnames

[Ayetooey]

There's 7 Goldbergs and 10 Goldsteins alone in the list, lol. Dunno how the admins thought having so many ethnic Jewish members would bring a fair representation for ethnic Romanians.

[Jana]

Well, some of them are probably Jewish R1a.

[Artek]

His type of R1a has nothing to do with Germanic people though, but has subclade common for eastern europe. It could be local.
From what I remember he cluster with Serbs like typical Translvanian Romanian :p
R1a type that is not Germanic doesn't mean it was not carried by German settlers.

[Jana]

R1a type that is not Germanic doesn't mean it was not carried by German settlers.

He is CTS3402, not really typical for Germany and most common Z280 in Romania, just saying...
By the way, Transylvanian Saxons originate from southwest Germany which is very poor in R1a of any type.

[Nurzat]

here's 33 Romanians' Y hg on GedMATCH (only Romanian last names, no specific region) - it's all very fragmented, what do you think?

also, some hg may be the same as there's both notations used, old and new (if you notice please help merge those):

4x I2a2

3x E-M5021
3x I1
3x R1a1a

2x I-P109
2x I-M253
2x J2
2x R-M417
2x R-M405

1x C2
1x E1b1b1a
1x E1b1b1a2*
1x I-Z58
1x I-S17250
1x I2b2
1x J-M241
1x R1a-L260>YP610+
1x R1b1b2a1a1
1x R-P297


any thoughts?

PS. we could add to these the hg of the Romanian members on here - please share. I didn't add mine since my paternal side isn't ethnic Romanian. if we get this list to 100 it'd be relevant enough, I think.

[Artek]

He is CTS3402, not really typical for Germany and most common Z280 in Romania, just saying...
By the way, Transylvanian Saxons originate from southwest Germany which is very poor in R1a of any type.
Initial wave of Transylvanian Saxons originates from the area of Luxembourg and Moselle so any expected main R1a type was probably L664 and Z93, maybe also few cases of Z280 but rather very rare xCTS3402xCTS1211 Western Euro cases.

So I am aware of that but the next waves came from anywhere like Bavaria and Thuringia where CTS3402 is present without any bigger sampling.

We can't then really disprove (or prove) that his CTS3402 was from the Germany or not. If he was let's say I1 or R1b-P312, then it could have also been local as well. We just speak of a likelihood.

The best thing would be to get some decent high-resolution matching suggesting one option or another.

[Norb]

Initial wave of Transylvanian Saxons originates from the area of Luxembourg and Moselle so any expected main R1a type was probably L664 and Z93, maybe also few cases of Z280 but rather very rare xCTS3402xCTS1211 Western Euro cases.

So I am aware of that but the next waves came from anywhere like Bavaria and Thuringia where CTS3402 is present without any bigger sampling.

We can't then really disprove (or prove) that his CTS3402 was from the Germany or not. If he was let's say I1 or R1b-P312, then it could have also been local as well. We just speak of a likelihood.

The best thing would be to get some decent high-resolution matching suggesting one option or another.

Where is it from in your personal view?

[Artek]

Where is it from in your personal view?
If he descends from the settlers in direct paternal line then probably southeastern parts of Germany like Upper Palatinate, Upper Franconia, Upper or Lower Bavaria, Thuringia.

If not, then it is a local line.

I won't make any decisive bets on that, though when basing on numbers local origins may be slightly more likely. I don't know, however, whether Saxons ever included locals in their ranks or not.

[Jana]

...

What do you know about R1a CTS8816 ? I would be grateful if you have any info.

[Artek]

What do you know about R1a CTS8816 ? I would be grateful if you have any info.
CTS8816 itself probably originated around 2200 b.c., most likely taking part in the eastern trzciniec part of Trzciniec cultural horizon.

It is the main CTS3402 type found in Slavic people (or their descendants) and is divided into three main types: Y2902 (to which I belong), L1280 and S18681.

There are also very rare CTS8816 types that don't belong to these 3 types. One proven case was found in Switzerland and another one in the Sicily.


Y2902 has more southerly distribution and is numerically superior, mainly because eastern subclades of Y2902 (Y2910 and downstream) made their way in the Ukraine and Russia. Distribution of western subclades like Y3226 is centered around Slovakia and southern parts of modern Poland (both Lesser Poland and Silesia) but it is to a lesser degree found even deep in the Balkans (recently an Albanian). In what is now Germany, it is mostly Southern and southern-central parts. Other Y2902 subclades are crazily spread throughout Europe and found even in England, Sardinia and Turkey and Denmark.

L1280 is less numerous, less southern (though there are pockets in Serbia and other Balkan countries). In Poland L1280 is stronger in Masovia and Cuyavia regions. Seems to be more frequently found in Eastern Prussia and Pomerania than Y2902 but much less pronounced in Silesia and Lesser Poland.

S18681 is most likely the smallest, with the distribution centered in the Eastern Germany and Poland although there are exceptions from other countries (Ukraine, Denmark, British Isles). In Poland stronger in central-northern parts (Pomerania, Cuyavia, northern Greater Poland). A current king of the Netherlands belongs to this line.

[Jana]

CTS8816 itself probably originated around 2200 b.c., most likely taking part in the eastern trzciniec part of Trzciniec cultural horizon.

It is the main CTS3402 type found in Slavic people (or their descendants) and is divided into three main types: Y2902 (to which I belong), L1280 and S18681.

There are also very rare CTS8816 types that don't belong to these 3 types. One proven case was found in Switzerland and another one in the Sicily.


Y2902 has more southerly distribution and is numerically superior, mainly because eastern subclades of Y2902 (Y2910 and downstream) made their way in the Ukraine and Russia. Distribution of western subclades like Y3226 is centered around Slovakia and southern parts of modern Poland (both Lesser Poland and Silesia) but it is to a lesser degree found even deep in the Balkans (recently an Albanian). In what is now Germany, it is mostly Southern and southern-central parts. Other Y2902 subclades are crazily spread throughout Europe and found even in England, Sardinia and Turkey and Denmark.

L1280 is less numerous, less southern (though there are pockets in Serbia and other Balkan countries). In Poland L1280 is stronger in Masovia and Cuyavia regions. Seems to be more frequently found in Eastern Prussia and Pomerania than Y2902 but much less pronounced in Silesia and Lesser Poland.

S18681 is most likely the smallest, with the distribution centered in the Eastern Germany and Poland although there are exceptions from other countries (Ukraine, Denmark, British Isles). In Poland stronger in central-northern parts (Pomerania, Cuyavia, northern Greater Poland). A current king of the Netherlands belongs to this line.

Thank you!

[Dick]

Initial wave of Transylvanian Saxons originates from the area of Luxembourg and Moselle so any expected main R1a type was probably L664 and Z93, maybe also few cases of Z280 but rather very rare xCTS3402xCTS1211 Western Euro cases.

So I am aware of that but the next waves came from anywhere like Bavaria and Thuringia where CTS3402 is present without any bigger sampling.

We can't then really disprove (or prove) that his CTS3402 was from the Germany or not. If he was let's say I1 or R1b-P312, then it could have also been local as well. We just speak of a likelihood.

The best thing would be to get some decent high-resolution matching suggesting one option or another.

Transylvania Saxons are overwhelmingly R1b(most like U106) according to a study from 2004.

the following haplogroups were predicted in the 59 males:

5 E1b1b
1 G1
2 G2a
2 H
4 I1
3 I2a(xI2a2)
1 I2a2
1 I2b1
1 J2b
1 N
2 R1a
22 R1b


Ligia Barbarii et al.

ABSTRACT: A study on Y-STR haplotypes in the Saxon population from Transylvania
(Siebenbürger Sachsen): is there an evidence for a German origin? Y chromosome markers are increasingly used to investigate human population histories, being considered to be sensitive systems for detecting the population movements. In this study we present Y-STR data for a male population of Transylvanian Saxons in
comparison with Y-haplotypes from Romanians and other European populations. The Transylvanian Saxons, called like that since medieval times, are representing a western population with unknown origin, settled in the Arch of Romanian Carpathian Mountains in the earliest of the 12th century. Historical and dialectal studies strongly suggest that they do not originate from Saxony, but more probably from the Mosel riversides (Rhine affluent) and also from the Eifel Mountains Valley (present territory of Luxembourg). Living protected by fortified cities in compact communities, they still represent a quite distinct population in Transylvania. For this study, 59 male samples were collected from the Siebenburgen area, subjects being selected by their Saxon surnames and paternal grandfather birthplace. A set of nine STR polymorphic systems mapping on the male-specific region of the human Y chromosome (DYS19, DYS385, DYS389 I/II, DYS390, DYS391, DYS392, DYS393) were typed by means of
one or two two multiplex PCR reactions and capillary electrophoresis. The typing results reflect high Saxon population haplotype diversity. Furthermore, we present data on the haplotype sharing of the Saxon population with other European populations, especially with Germans as well as with the Romanians and the Transylvanian Szekely.

[MagnusDark]

CTS8816 itself probably originated around 2200 b.c., most likely taking part in the eastern trzciniec part of Trzciniec cultural horizon.

It is the main CTS3402 type found in Slavic people (or their descendants) and is divided into three main types: Y2902 (to which I belong), L1280 and S18681.

There are also very rare CTS8816 types that don't belong to these 3 types. One proven case was found in Switzerland and another one in the Sicily.


Y2902 has more southerly distribution and is numerically superior, mainly because eastern subclades of Y2902 (Y2910 and downstream) made their way in the Ukraine and Russia. Distribution of western subclades like Y3226 is centered around Slovakia and southern parts of modern Poland (both Lesser Poland and Silesia) but it is to a lesser degree found even deep in the Balkans (recently an Albanian). In what is now Germany, it is mostly Southern and southern-central parts. Other Y2902 subclades are crazily spread throughout Europe and found even in England, Sardinia and Turkey and Denmark.

L1280 is less numerous, less southern (though there are pockets in Serbia and other Balkan countries). In Poland L1280 is stronger in Masovia and Cuyavia regions. Seems to be more frequently found in Eastern Prussia and Pomerania than Y2902 but much less pronounced in Silesia and Lesser Poland.

S18681 is most likely the smallest, with the distribution centered in the Eastern Germany and Poland although there are exceptions from other countries (Ukraine, Denmark, British Isles). In Poland stronger in central-northern parts (Pomerania, Cuyavia, northern Greater Poland). A current king of the Netherlands belongs to this line.

What is your knowledge base/position on M458 and clades(more specifically L1029)?. Always looking to learn more on these clades. I happen to belong to an Albanian founder effect splitting L1029 that seems localized to Eastern Albania and Western Macedonia. Our TMRCA with each other is about 1100-1200 years. There are currently 6 Albanians by surname in this cluster and an additional 12 through various studies(a few tosks among them). Most have origin around north-east Albania/west Macedonia.

[Dick]

What is your knowledge base/position on M458 and clades(more specifically L1029)?. Always looking to learn more on these clades. I happen to belong to an Albanian founder effect splitting L1029 that seems localized to Eastern Albania and Western Macedonia. Our TMRCA with each other is about 1100-1200 years. There are currently 6 Albanians by surname in this cluster and an additional 12 through various studies(a few tosks among them). Most have origin around north-east Albania/west Macedonia.

So all 18 of you that were tested descend from the same male?

[MagnusDark]

So all 18 of you that were tested descend from the same male?

So far yes. Founder lived between 800-900AD. 6 of the families are in our project with the rest being sourced from various studies. mostly Ghegs, but some Tosk as well. It is funny cause I was joking about the clan my family has had blood feuds with in our area, and that it would be funny if they were same haplo and cluster. Turns out they were lol. It seems this cluster is mostly concentrated in Eastern Albania/Western Macedonia. Most of them seem localized around Diber/Debar on both sides of the border. Theres alot of L1029 Albanian families on 23andme we match with, but most of them have been unresponsive about testing BigY or even just Y37 to validate it.

There were a couple of Croats and 3 Bulgarians from a study who matched 1 of the STRs typical of the cluster. However, they tested no more than 12-16 or so STRs so the values for the other STRs are unknown. At least matching one suggests they may be part of a pre-cluster split. Interestingly though, they are all from areas Albanian migrants went to. Like Razgrad(where Arbanas is located) and Zadar in Croatia.

There was another Bulgarian from Burgas, but per his STRs it was either R1a or R1b, so he wasn't stable enough.

[Artek]

What is your knowledge base/position on M458 and clades(more specifically L1029)?. Always looking to learn more on these clades. I happen to belong to an Albanian founder effect splitting L1029 that seems localized to Eastern Albania and Western Macedonia. Our TMRCA with each other is about 1100-1200 years. There are currently 6 Albanians by surname in this cluster and an additional 12 through various studies(a few tosks among them). Most have origin around north-east Albania/west Macedonia.

Hello MagnusDark, I recall you from another boards and R1a Project. I don't think I will provide you with something new - you belong to a subclade of L1029 that was seemingly assimilated by raising Albanians. Did your ancestors spoke Gheg dialects?

[Voskos]

According to Seya, no.

[MagnusDark]

Hello MagnusDark, I recall you from another boards and R1a Project. I don't think I will provide you with something new - you belong to a subclade of L1029 that was seemingly assimilated by raising Albanians. Did your ancestors spoke Gheg dialects?

Hi Artek, Idk why TA didn't send notification. Apologies for delayed response. Yea I meant more just information on M568 and L1029 in general and all its clades, to get an idea of the various founders among distant ancient cousins in far flung places.

For my cluster I am actually quite shocked how much I have learned in less than 2 years since my BigY. Initially I was predicted no call for M458 on LivingDNA and YP515 on Y37 at FTDNA. Then Full Genomes confirmed L1029. Eventually I created a SNP pack with my novels, and then Albanian matches started rolling in. Currently 6 Albanian families including myself in our project (tmrca 1200ypb), and 7 confirmed from studies(mostly Ghegs with a few Tosks), one of which was from the recent Macedonia study. This cluster seems focused around Eastern Albania & West Macedonia.

My family has always been Gheg as far was we know, and considering most in this cluster have origin in and around Diber/Debar(on both sides of the border), it likely incubated and assimilated within this region/area. There are another 6 Albanians from other studies, however they only had few STRs tested so only 2 of the 3 modals for Dibra cluster were present with the 3rd not having been tested. So only 13 officially with potentially others assuming they match the 3rd STR or for a pre-dibra cluster split.

I also have quite a few paternal Albanian matches on 23andme from the same area or its surroundings that are L1029 as well. I asked them to test so time will tell. So far I sit on basal L1029 on yfull as my matches mostly tested at YSEQ.

I am just more curious in general about M458 & L1029 and their diversity, and subclades/founders. I only have that Vayda blog from February of last year, but, many claim its inaccurate.

We speak the Central Gheg dialect(see below):

https://i.postimg.cc/Z51Y7kpK/1024px-Albanian-dialects-svg.png