Kuçi Dhe Vasojeçi

[Uski]

Do yall consider these tribes as albanian still or are they gone for good?
Any Crnogorci opinions are welcome too

[alb0zfinest]

Do yall consider these tribes as albanian still or are they gone for good?
Any Crnogorci opinions are welcome too
When we make Albania great again, they will be. :D For now they have betrayed their identity and sided with the Slavs :D

[Morlak]

Vasojevići dont have Albanian origin as far as i am aware. As for Kuči they seem to have Albanian origin on one part but most of them are today patriotic Serbs/Montenegrins.

[Ujku]

There is a an ex Arvanite city in Attiki province in Greece which is named kryekuqi (Kriekouki ) .

[Voskos]

Does he pass in Albania?
https://live.staticflickr.com/3919/14798674631_f238a98191_b.jpg

[Vožd]

Kuči are half Albanians, Vasojevići fully Serbs.

[Dukagjini]

Does he pass in Albania?
https://live.staticflickr.com/3919/14798674631_f238a98191_b.jpg

I think the photo is at a poor angle to judge, but judging from this angle, I'd say no he doesn't really pass.

[Dick]

Slobodan Milosevic and Mortimer are from Vasojevići clan. Even though they're E-v13 their specific subclade is not related to any Albanian clans afaik. Vukodav would more know about that.

[Uski]

Interesting, whatabout the other clans? Bratonozici? Piperi possibly or the like?

[Morlak]

Interesting, whatabout the other clans? Bratonozici? Piperi possibly or the like?

Bratonožići belong to Q2 haplogroup and i think they have no relations to Albanians, as for Piperi some of them have I2 and R1a wich are typical Serbian but they also have R-Y33200 which is present in Albanians.

[Dick]

Interesting, whatabout the other clans? Bratonozici? Piperi possibly or the like?

Piperi have mixed origins like Morlak said. Here's the timeline when the mixing occurred and why;




In 1658, the seven tribes of Kuči, Vasojevići, Bratonožići, Piperi, Klimenti, Hoti and Gruda allied themselves with the Republic of Venice, establishing the so-called "Seven-fold banner" or "alaj-barjak", against the Ottomans

[Dick]

Bratonožići belong to Q2 haplogroup



Also L1b-M317, No idea how and why.

[Jackson78]

Also L1b-M317, No idea how and why.

Wrong, L1b-M317 has presence only in Zagarač tribe and in E. Herzegovina.


Bratonožići belong to Q2 haplogroup and i think they have no relations to Albanians, as for Piperi some of them have I2 and R1a wich are typical Serbian but they also have R-Y33200 which is present in Albanians.

Actually almost whole Piperi tribe belongs to R-Y33200.

[Skerdilaid]

There is not doubt anymore that Kuqi, Piperi and Bjelopavlici were Albanian. Vasojevici isn’t that clear yet, but they most likely were as well considering they are PH1246>BY14151 and also based on their traditions of common origin with Hoti, Krasniqi etc.

Except some fractions of Kuqi they are gone for good. Funny they are the most nationalists Serbs among the Montenegrins.

[MagnusDark]

Vasojevići dont have Albanian origin as far as i am aware. As for Kuči they seem to have Albanian origin on one part but most of them are today patriotic Serbs/Montenegrins.

My in-laws are Kuci. They have openly mentioned their Albanian origin and neither of the ones I am acquainted view Serbs positively. They do call themselves Montenegrin though.

[Vukodav]

Slobodan Milosevic and Mortimer are from Vasojevići clan. Even though they're E-v13 their specific subclade is not related to any Albanian clans afaik. Vukodav would more know about that.

Yeah, from what I know the people who belong to that subclade (except Vasojevići)are one Serbian brotherhood that has ancestry from Montenegro, bunch of Herzegovian Serbs, Croats, Slovenians some NorthWestern Europeans and Greeks. No Albanians so far, but I am sure some sample will eventually come out, due to the migrations and such. But all in all the subclade is separated 4000 years ago from other Balkan e-v13. I think its too early to claim anything else besides that tbh. My personal theory is that its carriers were part of northern Illyrian tribes that got Slavicised early on.
Now, when it comes to other mentioned clans, Kuči are definitely of mixed origin, older population being R1a carriers adopted by ev13 Mrnjavčevići and Drekalovići.
Bjelopavlići have historically confirmed Albanian ancestor that served Nemanjići from what I know, they were a warrior band that served as some sort of militia to Crnojevići or Balšići (I forgot). Piperi have Slavic I2 haplogroup for the most part. But they are mixed clan, unlike Vasojevići, Drobnjaci, Kuči etc who have one common ancestor, so its hard to tell. I consider all of them to be Slavic Serbs/Montenegrins, because that is their main identity. Even the ones with that Albanian ancestor. We are talking about haplogroups btw, they have no ethnic identity, everything is possible

[Vukodav]

My in-laws are Kuci. They have openly mentioned their Albanian origin and neither of the ones I am acquainted view Serbs positively. They do call themselves Montenegrin though.
Kuči still have Albanian and Slavic muslim minority. The slavic muslims will obviously have negative feelings towards Serbs. But Kuči are one of the most nationalistic Serbs in Montenegro for sure

[Skerdilaid]

Piperi are actually predominantly R1b-BY611>Z2705 and related to me actually lol. Some small fractions there belong to different lines, of course - like Mugoša for example who are with origin from Kastrat (they have tested as V13-L241>PH2180) etc

[Dukagjini]

Piperi are actually predominantly R1b-BY611>Z2705 and related to me actually lol. Some small fractions there belong to different lines, of course - like Mugoša for example who are with origin from Kastrat (they have tested as V13-L241>PH2180) etc

Skerdi what do you think of these statements from an article,

1.5.1. Lake Scutari (Southern and Eastern Montenegro, Northwestern Albania, etc.) Of all of the areas of Slavic-Albanian language contact, the area around Lake Scutari (Sr Skadarsko jezero, Alb Liqeni i Shkodrës) and in the mountain villages in eastern Montenegro has seen the greatest amount of reciprocal bilingualism. Part of this may be due to the area’s peripheral location to many of the political states that had influence in the western Balkans. More likely, however, is the relatively equal social standing between Albanian and Montenegrin tribes from their origins in the 14th and 15th centuries at least until the reorganization of society under Communism (von Šufflay 1925/2004: 75–78; Omari 1989: 45). This was promoted by the common cultural values held by highland Montenegrins and Albanians (Çabej 1975, cited in Omari 1989: 45), especially regarding traditions of marriage and descent. Both the Albanians and the Montenegrins considered marriage within the male bloodline to be unacceptable. In order to work around this limitation, brides were often sought from other communities, and some Montenegrin and Albanian tribes had traditions of seeking wives from one another’s communities (Durham 1928: 15; Curtis 2007: 19). One obvious result of these arrangements was an effective bilingualism and intimate cultural contact between Albanians and Montenegrins in this area. Some lexical items (addressed in the next chapter) attest to both the practice of exogamous marriage and the shared cultural values found among the Albanian and Montenegrin tribes in the area. Second, in the time of close cultural contact, it is known that certain clans (e.g. Piperi and Kuči) have switched from having a mixed composition of Albanian and Slavic speakers to being only Slavic (Omari 1989: 45; von Šufflay 1924). In addition, several tribes that are now monolingual Albanian or Slavic maintain identical stories of ethnogenesis (Omari 1989: 45; Barjaktarević 1962). According to Stanišić, the influence of contact with Albanian can be seen throughout Old Montenegro, and in practically every Montenegrin tribe (1995: 24). Two fairly recent cases of population shifts have occurred in Montenegro where many linguistic convergences between Slavic and Albanian are also found. First is the Mrković (also Mrkojević) community in the highlands above Bar/Tivar. Although it is certain that some of the Mrkovići were historically Albanian (and some continue to identify themselves as such), scholars disagree whether linguistic and other cultural similarities to Slavic dialects in Kosovo and Macedonia are the result of Albanian speakers shifting to Slavic or simply from their location historically. Most scholars believe that they lived in northern Albania and thus, geographically, connected Slavic dialects in Montenegro, southern Serbia (including Kosovo) and northern Macedonia (Stanišić 1995: 17).

[Vukodav]

Piperi are actually predominantly R1b-BY611>Z2705 and related to me actually lol. Some small fractions there belong to different lines, of course - like Mugoša for example who are with origin from Kastrat (they have tested as V13-L241>PH2180) etc

Piperi as a clan have two or three ancestral "bases". The old one is basically made of Slavic carriers I2 and R1a. The largest Piperi brotherhood Lutovci are I2. The ones that belong to R1b are called Lužani, after the old Vlach/Latin clan that got slavicised. I think that ev13 carriers among Piperi are called Crnci, and that they alse stteem from Lužani. I don't count other multiple brotherhoods that have different ancestry and were adopted gradually by Piperi

[Cumansky]

No Vlach has haplogroup R1B, don't even try that ish.

[MagnusDark]

Kuči still have Albanian and Slavic muslim minority. The slavic muslims will obviously have negative feelings towards Serbs. But Kuči are one of the most nationalistic Serbs in Montenegro for sure

These were Muslim it’s true. They also have family in Shkoder.

[Vukodav]

No Vlach has haplogroup R1B, don't even try that ish.

Vlach is a wide term. In this case I meant people that Slavs called "Latins". Latinised natives basically

[Skerdilaid]

Piperi as a clan have two or three ancestral "bases". The old one is basically made of Slavic carriers I2 and R1a. The largest Piperi brotherhood Lutovci are I2. The ones that belong to R1b are called Lužani, after the old Vlach/Latin clan that got slavicised. I think that ev13 carriers among Piperi are called Crnci, and that they alse stteem from Lužani. I don't count other multiple brotherhoods that have different ancestry and were adopted gradually by Piperi
No, the clan itself is R1b-BY611>Z2705 (the Lutovci in other words). Lužani in other hand who were the older layer there are I2a. Crrnci if I am not mistaken are I2a as well or at least part of them. Mugoša as I mentioned are V13.

[Vukodav]

These were Muslim it’s true. They also have family in Shkoder.
even tho we have some sort of historical clan rivalry with them, at first them being larger and bullying us, then we outpowered them and returned them equally, I have huge respect for everything they withstood. They were masacred twice by Montenegrin crown, women, children and elders mostly. I am not even gonna count how many times Ottomans burned their settlements, cus they are border clan and first to take the full attack. But yet they somehow managed to survive, stand tall and keep their identity. So, to be perfectly honest, they can be Arabs by ancestry, but they are still one if the greatest Serbs and Montenegrins in my book.
Having said that, Montenegrin muslims generally have specific identity, which is both confusing and logical from historical standpoint. They have Montenegrin identity, but except minority they are not comfortable at accepting Serbian part of it, because of the persecution by Orthodox Montenegrins after and during the Ottoman times

[Skerdilaid]

Skerdi what do you think of these statements from an article,
Although it is certain that some of the Mrkovići were historically Albanian (and some continue to identify themselves as such), scholars disagree whether linguistic and other cultural similarities to Slavic dialects in Kosovo and Macedonia are the result of Albanian speakers shifting to Slavic or simply from their location historically. Most scholars believe that they lived in northern Albania and thus, geographically, connected Slavic dialects in Montenegro, southern Serbia (including Kosovo) and northern Macedonia (Stanišić 1995: 17).
Well obviously that’s now true, as can be seen now looking at the y lineages of North Albanians. Serbs have pushed such a theory for like two centuries but it’s dead in the water now. They did have some presence in Shkoder the city and Ulqin, but as far the highlands go they were always predominantly Albanian.

As for intermarriages, yes they were sort of common. Also the reason why some of these clans switched their language.

[Dick]

They were masacred twice by Montenegrin crown, women, children and elders mostly.

Why?

[Jackson78]

No, the clan itself is R1b-BY611>Z2705 (the Lutovci in other words). Lužani in other hand who were the older layer there are I2a. Crrnci if I am not mistaken are I2a as well or at least part of them. Mugoša as I mentioned are V13.

Crnci are also E-V13.

[Cumansky]

Vlach is a wide term. In this case I meant people that Slavs called "Latins". Latinised natives basically

Linguistic Vlachs is overhyped, what is their significance again? Are they actually from Romania?

Show me this R1B photo, I tell you if Vlach.

[Vukodav]

No, the clan itself is R1b-BY611>Z2705 (the Lutovci in other words). Lužani in other hand who were the older layer there are I2a. Crrnci if I am not mistaken are I2a as well or at least part of them. Mugoša as I mentioned are V13.

Yeah, you seem to be right. It seems that brotherhood Lutovci have a lot of adoptees tho, or at least people who claim origin from them but have totally different haplogroups

[Vukodav]

Well obviously that’s now true, as can be seen now looking at the y lineages of North Albanians. Serbs have pushed such a theory for like two centuries but it’s dead in the water now. They did have some presence in Shkoder the city and Ulqin, but as far the highlands go they were always predominantly Albanian.

As for intermarriages, yes they were sort of common. Also the reason why some of these clans switched their language.

I don't think that marriages between Montenegrins and Albanian Highlanders were that common tbh, it would be visible in autosomal results of both populations, but from what I've seen they are distant. The main reason for occasional usage of others language due to the proximity, necessity and trade.

[Vukodav]

Why?

https://sr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D0%BE%D1%85%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B0_%D0%9A%D1%83% D1%87%D0%B0

[MagnusDark]

Kuči still have Albanian and Slavic muslim minority. The slavic muslims will obviously have negative feelings towards Serbs. But Kuči are one of the most nationalistic Serbs in Montenegro for sure

These were Muslim it’s true. They also have family in Shkoder.

[Skerdilaid]

Crnci are also E-V13.

Any idea what subclade?

[Dukagjini]

Well obviously that’s now true, as can be seen now looking at the y lineages of North Albanians. Serbs have pushed such a theory for like two centuries but it’s dead in the water now. They did have some presence in Shkoder the city and Ulqin, but as far the highlands go they were always predominantly Albanian.

As for intermarriages, yes they were sort of common. Also the reason why some of these clans switched their language.

Would these intermarriages with Montenegrin tribes, somewhat explain my Montenegrin, slavic features?

[Dukagjini]

I don't think that marriages between Montenegrins and Albanian Highlanders were that common tbh, it would be visible in autosomal results of both populations, but from what I've seen they are distant. The main reason for occasional usage of others language due to the proximity, necessity and trade.

I think what happened was there was indeed mixing, but then this mixing stopped and Albs, MNE highlanders, mixed with their own again, which somewhat diluted the Alb genes Mnegrins were getting, and the slavic genes albs were getting. Although I'm not sure to the extent both Alb tribes and MNE tribes did mix.

I do look somewhat slavic in my phenotype, and so do other members in my family, that is why I think this mixing did occur. But when I check my autosomal, it rarely shows up. This could be, because the testing is just not there yet, to separate the genes.

[Vukodav]

I think what happened was there was indeed mixing, but then this mixing stopped and Albs, MNE highlanders, mixed with their own again, which somewhat diluted the Alb genes Mnegrins were getting, and the slavic genes albs were getting. Although I'm not sure to the extent both Alb tribes and MNE tribes did mix.

I do look somewhat slavic in my phenotype, and so do other members in my family, that is why I think this mixing did occur. But when I check my autosomal, it rarely shows up. This could be, because the testing is just not there yet, to separate the genes.Well, mixing did occur obviously, I just don't think it was that common as some people claim. Because these are two different cultures, religions and languages after all, despite the cultural exchange. But I do think that it was rarer in lets say the last 100 years of Ottoman period due to the already established animosity between two groups

[Dukagjini]

Well, mixing did occur obviously, I just don't think it was that common as some people claim. Because these are two different cultures, religions and languages after all, despite the cultural exchange. But I do think that it was rarer in lets say the last 100 years of Ottoman period due to the already established animosity between two groups

Not sure exactly why there was mixing in the first place. Some people say it was due to a common ground, culture, others say it was to stop tension, etc.

I know that Marko Miljanov spoke very highly of Malesors. I think his mother was a Malesor, if I am not mistaken.

This mixing certainly stopped and is much rarer, in recent times, like you said. But there are many assimilated Albanians in MNE now, that are raising their children speaking only Serbian, etc, mixing with Montenegrins. So it isn't all absent.

[Vukodav]

Not sure exactly why there was mixing in the first place. Some people say it was due to a common ground, culture, others say it was to stop tension, etc.

I know that Marko Miljanov spoke very highly of Malesors. I think his mother was a Malesor, if I am not mistaken.

This mixing certainly stopped and is much rarer, in recent times, like you said. But there are many assimilated Albanians in MNE now, that are raising their children speaking only Serbian, etc, mixing with Montenegrins. So it isn't all absent.

Yeah, Marko's mother was Albanian, but I think that Kuči as a whole always had good connections with Albanians up until relatevely recently.
I am not sure why did the mixing occurred tbh, a lot of the marriages back then were arranged, so I asume that males from bordering clans who didn't have any other option found a wife in neighbouring Albanian or Montenegrin clan. Or just coincidence, who knows.
The assimilated Albanians in Montenegro live in mixed Albanian and Slavic muslim communities tho and they mixed for ages, like in Plav and Gusinje for example, its not a recent thing tho. But most of them still have Albanian identity, so its kinda strech to say that they are asimilated, I know that language is important and all but I doubt they'll start identifying as Serbs, maybe eventually like Bosniaks. The Albanians in Tuzi and Ulcinj still speak Albanian, actually in Ulcinj they only speak Albanian, most of the youth can't even speak Serbian

[Uski]

Found thi:http://www.albanianhistory.net/1907_Miljanov/index.htm

Seems like he did respect the Malesori Customs and Hospitality quite enough, even though he actually fought against Albanian muslims for quite some time

Also is Pashko Vasa related in any way to the Vasojevici? Could Vasa be the Albanian version of them?

[Vukodav]

Found thi:http://www.albanianhistory.net/1907_Miljanov/index.htm

Seems like he did respect the Malesori Customs and Hospitality quite enough, even though he actually fought against Albanian muslims for quite some time

Also is Pashko Vasa related in any way to the Vasojevici? Could Vasa be the Albanian version of them?I am not sure about Pashko Vasa. i know that there are few families of Vasojević ancestry in Vraka, Albos will know better.
Btw I've only read The Examples of Humanity and Heroism by Marko Miljanov, now you got me interested in reading his book about Albanians

[MiloshN]

lol Kuci has a closer match with some Albanians, while Vasojevici, they do not have any matches. A completely different branch ...

[MiloshN]

As part of Bjelopavlici tribe, I can say we only we have a common non-Slav origin as Albanians, we have nothing else more. We participated in the creation of the state of Serbia on which we are proud, since her earliest years. We have nothing in common with the Albanians, and it is very stupid to connect us as Albanians. Illyrians yes, Albanians no. Thank's.
And stop appropriating everything that is not of Slavic origin in the Balkans.

I and my Albanian ''cousin''..
https://image.prntscr.com/image/4WR4JjaAR6qPWstZSCS_SA.png

[MiloshN]

Bjelopavlići have historically confirmed Albanian ancestor that served Nemanjići

Ko te lagao za ovo ? :)

[Dukagjini]

Yeah, Marko's mother was Albanian, but I think that Kuči as a whole always had good connections with Albanians up until relatevely recently.
I am not sure why did the mixing occurred tbh, a lot of the marriages back then were arranged, so I asume that males from bordering clans who didn't have any other option found a wife in neighbouring Albanian or Montenegrin clan. Or just coincidence, who knows.
The assimilated Albanians in Montenegro live in mixed Albanian and Slavic muslim communities tho and they mixed for ages, like in Plav and Gusinje for example, its not a recent thing tho. But most of them still have Albanian identity, so its kinda strech to say that they are asimilated, I know that language is important and all but I doubt they'll start identifying as Serbs, maybe eventually like Bosniaks. The Albanians in Tuzi and Ulcinj still speak Albanian, actually in Ulcinj they only speak Albanian, most of the youth can't even speak Serbian

In plav-gusinje, and in places in Bar like Šestani (where I'm from), there are some Albanians which have assimilated pretty much. They don't really know Albanian, and many moved to inner Bar and totally assimilated. Yea sure, many still know they are Albanian, but losing the language and identification is pretty much assimilation.

[Jana]

In plav-gusinje, and in places in Bar like Šestani (where I'm from), there are some Albanians which have assimilated pretty much. They don't really know Albanian, and many moved to inner Bar and totally assimilated. Yea sure, many still know they are Albanian, but losing the language and identification is pretty much assimilation.

On my Island in Dalmatia are some people of Italian, Greek and Albanian origin who came there centuries ago.
There is family with surname Šestan, and they are considered to be of paternally Albanian origin.

[Dukagjini]

On my Island in Dalmatia are some people of Italian, Greek and Albanian origin who came there centuries ago.
There is family with surname Šestan, and they are considered to be of paternally Albanian origin.

Yea, majority Arbanasi is originally from Shestani. I even have one relative who has the same surname as the Arbanasi people that left to Croatia, though theres is added with -ic now probably.

[Vukodav]

Ko te lagao za ovo ? :)I was reading on Poreklo about them, just another day, my mother is Bjelopavlić by ancestry so I find their ( yours ) history rather interesting. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong tho, maybe I got some things wrong. Its also kinda not that smart to talk about someone's ethnic and national identity in middle ages. What is certain tho is that they served the Serbian crown

[MiloshN]

I was reading on Poreklo about them, just another day, my mother is Bjelopavlić by ancestry so I find their ( yours ) history rather interesting. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong tho, maybe I got some things wrong. Its also kinda not that smart to talk about someone's ethnic and national identity in middle ages. What is certain tho is that they served the Serbian crown

This is an answer...


As part of Bjelopavlici tribe, I can say we only we have a common non-Slav origin as Albanians, we have nothing else more. We participated in the creation of the state of Serbia on which we are proud, since her earliest years. We have nothing in common with the Albanians, and it is very stupid to connect us as Albanians. Illyrians yes, Albanians no. Thank's.
And stop appropriating everything that is not of Slavic origin in the Balkans.

I and my Albanian ''cousin''..
https://image.prntscr.com/image/4WR4JjaAR6qPWstZSCS_SA.png

[Skerdilaid]

As part of Bjelopavlici tribe, I can say we only we have a common non-Slav origin as Albanians, we have nothing else more. We participated in the creation of the state of Serbia on which we are proud, since her earliest years. We have nothing in common with the Albanians, and it is very stupid to connect us as Albanians. Illyrians yes, Albanians no. Thank's.
And stop appropriating everything that is not of Slavic origin in the Balkans.

I and my Albanian ''cousin''..
https://image.prntscr.com/image/4WR4JjaAR6qPWstZSCS_SA.png

There were no Illyrians in Middle Ages in Dukagjin, only Albanians. Your ancestors were most certainly Albanian, that couldn’t keep their lands in Dukagjin or migrated out for better opportunities (posture land etc). Live with it.

[Vukodav]

The fact that which does throws a shade on theory that Bijeli Pavle is a son of Leka Dukađin is that Leka was born in 1410 and Bjelopavlići as an organised tribe are first mentioned in documents in 1411, raiding caravans and such. Also, in one Italian document from year 1500, two Bjelopavlić clansmen are mentioned as mercenary warriors in Italy, their ethnicity is specifically listed as "Slavic". I am sure Milosh knows more

[Skerdilaid]

Them connecting themselves to the ruling Dukagjini family is just a myth that they created out of thin air for prestige, that’s about it. What is known is that they have their origins in Dukagjin, the region - where Shala, Shoshi, part of Nikaj and Mertur inhabit today. Many clans used to live up there in the past but the after mentioned clans kicked them out gradually (like Bobi, Mavriqi and many other minor tribes).

[Vukodav]

Them connecting themselves to the ruling Dukagjini family is just a myth that they created out of thin air for prestige, that’s about it. What is known is that they have their origins in Dukagjin, the region - where Shala, Shoshi, part of Nikaj and Mertur inhabit today. Many clans used to live up there in the past but the after mentioned clans kicked them out gradually (like Bobi, Mavriqi and many other minor tribes).They don't connect themselves to that family, its the Albanian legend

[MiloshN]

There were no Illyrians in Middle Ages in Dukagjin, only Albanians. Your ancestors were most certainly Albanian, that couldn’t keep their lands in Dukagjin or migrated out for better opportunities (posture land etc). Live with it.

Lol, Dukagjini is the only legend.
Leke definitely not. He was born in 1410. First, write about Bjelopavlici is in 1411, Dubrovnik. Maybe other Dukagjin, Leke not.

[Skerdilaid]

They don't connect themselves to that family, its the Albanian legend

It’s their legend. They took pride in their Dukagjini origin, same thing with Piperi. They actually discriminated the natives they found there. Read their traditions, almost all of them recorded by Serbian ethnographers.

[Skerdilaid]

Lol, Dukagjini is the only legend.
Leke definitely not. He was born in 1410. First, write about Bjelopavlici is in 1411, Dubrovnik. Maybe other Dukagjin, Leke not.


Dukagjini the region, dude: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dukagjin_highlands

[MiloshN]

It’s their legend. They took pride in their Dukagjini origin, same thing with Piperi. They actually discriminated the natives they found there. Read their traditions, almost all of them recorded by Serbian ethnographers.

This connection is nothing strange. Everyone wants to make himself important. Related to both the legend and the Nemanjići. What is probably incorrect.

[Vukodav]

Discriminating non-clansmen doesn't mean anything tbh, every clan did that on its teritory

[MiloshN]

Discriminating non-clansmen doesn't mean anything tbh, every clan did that on its teritory

Istina je da su se pojedina Crnogorska i Albanska plemena rodjakala, nema tu nicega cudnog, Albanci i Srbi su u srednjem veku bili saveznici (zastava nemanjica i albanije, isti orao samo druga boja, zajednicke borbe protiv turaka (skenderbeg), cak su Albanci slavili i slavu), ali po trenutom genetskom istrazivanju sva ta rodjakanja su ipak samo legenda. Bjelopavlici do najblizeg Albanca oko 2600 godina, nesto ne verujem u to ''rodjakanje'' :)

[Vukodav]

Istina je da su se pojedina Crnogorska i Albanska plemena rodjakala, nema tu nicega cudnog, Albanci i Srbi su u srednjem veku bili saveznici (zastava nemanjica i albanije, isti orao samo druga boja, zajednicke borbe protiv turaka (skenderbeg), cak su Albanci slavili i slavu), ali po trenutom genetskom istrazivanju sva ta rodjakanja su ipak samo legenda. Bjelopavlici do najblizeg Albanca oko 2600 godina, nesto ne verujem u to ''rodjakanje'' :)Yeah, I don't really believe in any of those legends until its proven by genetics. I wouldn't personally mind if I had Albanian ancestor, I probably have some down the line, not direct paternal but still. For me its interesting to read about ancestry of Serbian and Albanian clans, since our history is connected. We now how our identity, they have theirs, its not something that started over the night. I also can understand some frustrations from Albanian side, trying to claim our clans. Its a product of isolated mentality, folk myths and legends ect. For me the exchange of informations from both sides is whats important, its easy to separate myths from facts

[Skerdilaid]

Istina je da su se pojedina Crnogorska i Albanska plemena rodjakala, nema tu nicega cudnog, Albanci i Srbi su u srednjem veku bili saveznici (zastava nemanjica i albanije, isti orao samo druga boja, zajednicke borbe protiv turaka (skenderbeg), cak su Albanci slavili i slavu), ali po trenutom genetskom istrazivanju sva ta rodjakanja su ipak samo legenda. Bjelopavlici do najblizeg Albanca oko 2600 godina, nesto ne verujem u to ''rodjakanje'' :)
The other Albanian that’s much closer (possibly 1000ybp) should appear on yfull soon :D

[MiloshN]

The other Albanian that’s much closer (possibly 1000ybp) should appear on yfull soon :D

from where? south Albania?

[Dukagjini]

Yeah, I don't really believe in any of those legends until its proven by genetics. I wouldn't personally mind if I had Albanian ancestor, I probably have some down the line, not direct paternal but still. For me its interesting to read about ancestry of Serbian and Albanian clans, since our history is connected. We now how our identity, they have theirs, its not something that started over the night. I also can understand some frustrations from Albanian side, trying to claim our clans. Its a product of isolated mentality, folk myths and legends ect. For me the exchange of informations from both sides is whats important, its easy to separate myths from facts

Totally agree. Poreklo.rs forum has many members that use facts, and logical deductive reasoning on this, and I give them credit. I just don't like it when I see Serbs, claim all Albanian tribes as Serbian in origin, and this is then touted by Serb politicians, the media, and the public. Can't blame the public, many eat up the nationalist rhetoric and some just don't have the time to look into this stuff deeply, but the media, politicians, and some laughable historians shouldn't showboat their BS, and state it like it's the truth, and a blow to the Shqiptars. They have no place doing so, and they never use genetic research to back up their claims.

[Voskos]

Piperi means pepper in Greek :D

[Uski]

Istina je da su se pojedina Crnogorska i Albanska plemena rodjakala, nema tu nicega cudnog, Albanci i Srbi su u srednjem veku bili saveznici (zastava nemanjica i albanije, isti orao samo druga boja, zajednicke borbe protiv turaka (skenderbeg), cak su Albanci slavili i slavu), ali po trenutom genetskom istrazivanju sva ta rodjakanja su ipak samo legenda. Bjelopavlici do najblizeg Albanca oko 2600 godina, nesto ne verujem u to ''rodjakanje'' :)

im sure your opinion is valid however we cant really respond if we dont know the language, so please keep serbian at a minimum at least in the albanian subforum


So, from what i could surmise I dont think there ints AS strong of evidence (although still some semi valid claims) to "declare" so to say, the Piperi,Bratonozici,Bjelopavlici,Vasojevici as ancestral/mixed00 albanians as there is for Kuci and especially the Zatrijebac

Well what about the Moracani? Or Rovcani? And is this albanian influence exclusively present in the Brda or also in the primorje or even Old Montenegro and stara hercegovina?

[Vukodav]

Totally agree. Poreklo.rs forum has many members that use facts, and logical deductive reasoning on this, and I give them credit. I just don't like it when I see Serbs, claim all Albanian tribes as Serbian in origin, and this is then touted by Serb politicians, the media, and the public. Can't blame the public, many eat up the nationalist rhetoric and some just don't have the time to look into this stuff deeply, but the media, politicians, and some laughable historians shouldn't showboat their BS, and state it like it's the truth, and a blow to the Shqiptars. They have no place doing so, and they never use genetic research to back up their claims.

Couldn't agree more when it comes to these pseudo-historians on all sides. The sad part is that they get all the media attention since their claims are bombastic and there to please the pride of ignorant masses.
Some even use the really basic 10 year old genetic theories too support their bs.
And yeah, poreklo.rs has sort of really scientific approach to this topic. One of the forum members there is Albanian ethnographer, the man is a living encyclopedia. He also has extremely unbiased approach and I've learned a lot from him when it comes to Albanians and connections between you and us

[Hulu]

Couldn't agree more when it comes to these pseudo-historians on all sides. The sad part is that they get all the media attention since their claims are bombastic and there to please the pride of ignorant masses.


Not really on both sides. I've read Albanian history books and they are very careful, if not conservative when it comes to Serbs. For example, I didn't know the Dusan invaded Thessaly in 1348 with mostly Albanian soldiers. This is from Milan Suflai's book "Serbs and Albanians" page 126. (Everything is based on documents of that era, Suflay doesn't speculate when it comes to facts).

http://i63.tinypic.com/2hqs5mr.jpg

[Dukagjini]

Couldn't agree more when it comes to these pseudo-historians on all sides. The sad part is that they get all the media attention since their claims are bombastic and there to please the pride of ignorant masses.
Some even use the really basic 10 year old genetic theories too support their bs.
And yeah, poreklo.rs has sort of really scientific approach to this topic. One of the forum members there is Albanian ethnographer, the man is a living encyclopedia. He also has extremely unbiased approach and I've learned a lot from him when it comes to Albanians and connections between you and us

Yea, more testing needs to be done too. In the future we may be able to distinguish clans and origins, and the tribes that mixed with each other. Too many people in the balkans don't believe in this genetic shit though xD Especially older generation.

[Uski]

Couldn't agree more when it comes to these pseudo-historians on all sides. The sad part is that they get all the media attention since their claims are bombastic and there to please the pride of ignorant masses.
Some even use the really basic 10 year old genetic theories too support their bs.
And yeah, poreklo.rs has sort of really scientific approach to this topic. One of the forum members there is Albanian ethnographer, the man is a living encyclopedia. He also has extremely unbiased approach and I've learned a lot from him when it comes to Albanians and connections between you and us

i think its unavoidable. i can somehow understand how some young serbs, say those born in kosovo might feel. To them (regardless of how historically valid it is anymore and of the war) they still see it as "srce srbije", and i mean you cant really blame them, from their position it makes sense, and if someone had say a family member die in that war (regardless of some of the atrocities) that can mess you up big time. Of course from my side its the same way, but i feel as if we dont see through these ethnic divisions enough and analyze the human aspect behind it.

Maybe this is why the balkans will always be a mess.

[Vukodav]

Not really on both sides. I've read Albanian history books and they are very careful, if not conservative when it comes to Serbs. For example, I didn't know the Dusan invaded Thessaly in 1348 with mostly Albanian soldiers. This is from Milan Suflai's book "Serbs and Albanians" page 126. (Everything is based on documents of that era, Suflay doesn't speculate when it comes to facts).

Books written by actual Serbian historians are carefully written too, without speculations. Real historians rarely speculate. Its just that wannabe historians are louder and more noticeable in the public

[Voskos]

I hope South Croats(Albanians) and Northern Bulgarians(Serb) will eventually reconcile.

[Dukagjini]

Books written by actual Serbian historians are carefully written too, without speculations. Real historians rarely speculate. Its just that wannabe historians are louder and more noticeable in the public

True. The wannabe's are out there, like Jovan Deretic who says we were shipped on a boat from Italy, lmao

[Vukodav]

i think its unavoidable. i can somehow understand how some young serbs, say those born in kosovo might feel. To them (regardless of how historically valid it is anymore and of the war) they still see it as "srce srbije", and i mean you cant really blame them, from their position it makes sense, and if someone had say a family member die in that war (regardless of some of the atrocities) that can mess you up big time. Of course from my side its the same way, but i feel as if we dont see through these ethnic divisions enough and analyze the human aspect behind it.

Maybe this is why the balkans will always be a mess.

Kosovo value to Serbs is cultural and a matter of an ethnic pride. No one really cares about teritory itself. But its a symbol before anything else. I personally mostly care about the Serbs that are left there, torn apart and used as political pawns by official Serbian and Kosovo governments

[Pribislav]

There were no Illyrians in Middle Ages in Dukagjin, only Albanians. Your ancestors were most certainly Albanian, that couldn’t keep their lands in Dukagjin or migrated out for better opportunities (posture land etc). Live with it.

Even if his direct paternal line is Albanian that means nothing after the many centuries of autosomal mixing with Serbs.
Y dna is only 0.01% of total dna. Milosh look very Slavic btw.

[MiloshN]

Even if his direct paternal line is Albanian that means nothing after the many centuries of autosomal mixing with Serbs.
Y dna is only 0.01% of total dna. Milosh look very Slavic btw.

We will wait for the official confirmation. About that 1000ybc...

[Morlak]

True. The wannabe's are out there, like Jovan Deretic who says we were shipped on a boat from Italy, lmao

Jovan Deretić is best example of a pseudohistorian that loves to make fool of himself. No one with real knowledge of history can take him serious. But problem is that people like him are given to much attention in media because as Vukodav said they make bombastic claims wich are appealing to wider public. It's truly a sad thing wich gives us Serbs a bad reputation, I mean i always see dozen of these fools on internet claiming all ancient civilizations to be Serbian. And sadly I think that in my school history book from 2 years it was mentioned that Albanians came from southern Italy in 11th century (obviously not correct) and that is weird since I rember that in my 6th grade history book it was clearly wirtten that Albanians come from Illyrians. Just shows that there is some division amnog Serbian historians on this topic though I'd say that majority of serious historians accepts the fact that Albanians are natives.

[Dukagjini]

Jovan Deretić is best example of a pseudohistorian that loves to make fool of himself. No one with real knowledge of history can take him serious. But problem is that people like him are given to much attention in media because as Vukodav said they make bombastic claims wich are appealing to wider public. It's truly a sad thing wich gives us Serbs a bad reputation, I mean i always see dozen of these fools on internet claiming all ancient civilizations to be Serbian. And sadly I think that in my school history book from 2 years it was mentioned that Albanians came from southern Italy in 11th century (obviously not correct) and that is weird since I rember that in my 6th grade history book it was clearly wirtten that Albanians come from Illyrians. Just shows that there is some division amnog Serbian historians on this topic though I'd say that majority of serious historians accepts the fact that Albanians are natives.

Yea man it's annoying, but also dangerous imo, cause it shapes people's minds. Not gonna say we are perfect either when it comes to the history and our historians, but we need to all be facts based. Poreklo.rs does a decent job, and so does foleja.

[Uski]

I hope South Croats(Albanians) and Northern Bulgarians(Serb) will eventually reconcile.

I just noticed this and.... holy hell man?

[alb0zfinest]

Yeah, Marko's mother was Albanian, but I think that Kuči as a whole always had good connections with Albanians up until relatevely recently.
I am not sure why did the mixing occurred tbh, a lot of the marriages back then were arranged, so I asume that males from bordering clans who didn't have any other option found a wife in neighbouring Albanian or Montenegrin clan. Or just coincidence, who knows.
The assimilated Albanians in Montenegro live in mixed Albanian and Slavic muslim communities tho and they mixed for ages, like in Plav and Gusinje for example, its not a recent thing tho. But most of them still have Albanian identity, so its kinda strech to say that they are asimilated, I know that language is important and all but I doubt they'll start identifying as Serbs, maybe eventually like Bosniaks. The Albanians in Tuzi and Ulcinj still speak Albanian, actually in Ulcinj they only speak Albanian, most of the youth can't even speak Serbian

The overwhelming amount. It's easy from their last name alone to determine which family they come from and which clan they belong to.

Southern Montenegro, according to this French archeologist and physican, as far as Budva was part of Albania.
"We left the little fort of Budua [Budva], the last holding of the Venetians in Albania" http://www.albanianhistory.net/1675_Spon/

Cases of assimilation usually mean Albanians assimilating into the Montenegrin ethos, and finding the inverse is practically impossible.

[Vukodav]

The overwhelming amount. It's easy from their last name alone to determine which family they come from and which clan they belong to.

Southern Montenegro, according to this French archeologist and physican, as far as Budva was part of Albania.
"We left the little fort of Budua [Budva], the last holding of the Venetians in Albania" http://www.albanianhistory.net/1675_Spon/

Cases of assimilation usually mean Albanians assimilating into the Montenegrin ethos, and finding the inverse is practically impossible.In which century it was part of Albania? Which state of Albania are you talking about, please be realistic.

[Uski]

In which century it was part of Albania? Which state of Albania are you talking about, please be realistic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_Albania

I think hes talking about this. Not sure how accurate how this is nowadays but at the time it was called that by the West.
Maybe there is some other source though not really sure on this

[Vukodav]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_Albania

I think hes talking about this. Not sure how accurate how this is nowadays but at the time it was called that by the West.
Maybe there is some other source though not really sure on thisYeah, I thought its that teritory.