Iron Age Croatia ?

[Jana]

I see Early Iron Age sample from Croatia added to nMonte runner. That's very exciting and I didn't know we had anything beyond middle bronze age.
Anyone know where is it from, what is it genetically like ?

1200 BC
mtDNA: HV0e

I tried modeling myself with Avar Szolad and that, but fit is rather bad (close to 4). Suprisingly Dalmatian MBA sample works lot better with me (excellent fit below 3),
shouldn't later samples provide better fit ?

If you know anything about this sample help to shed some light.

[Jana]

It looks like Southern Euro sample (not suprised), but I am not sure what kind of southern Euro.
I tried to compare it to modern Albanians (closest to Illyrian descendants today) and modern Austrians (where proto-Illyrians suposedly originate from, Hallstat culture), it's closer to Albanians.

But not very close, bad fit to both, Albos being closer (above 4, Austrian above 6)

Now I compared it to Bergamo (standard North Italian) and it's closest to that, below 3 which is excellent fit.


"sample": "Italian_Bergamo:Average",
"fit": 2.684,
"HRV_Early_IA": 100,
"closestDistances": [
"HRV_Early_IA:I3313: 2.684022"

[Jana]

This is for sure Illyrian sample. And shows continuity with Bronze Age ones, just for unknown reason it doesn't work well with me.
I guess this destroy theory of some loonies in Iron Age western balkanites suddenly became Russian like, haha!

Nope. Illyrians were cloest to North Italians and Iberians, West Med like people.

[Kaspias]

Indeed, may be a legit Illyrian sample.

https://i.ibb.co/d2Qh48V/Ads-z.png

[Jana]

Indeed, may be a legit Illyrian sample.

https://i.ibb.co/d2Qh48V/Ads-z.png

Thanks, what does this table means ? :D

[Dick]

This is for sure Illyrian sample. And shows continuity with Bronze Age ones, just for unknown reason it doesn't work well with me.
I guess this destroy theory of some loonies in Iron Age western balkanites suddenly became Russian like, haha!

Nope. Illyrians were cloest to North Italians and Iberians, West Med like people.
So what about the Albanians?

[Kaspias]

Thanks, what does this table means ? :D

Single population sharing of the sample. Closest to the Bergamo

[Jana]

So what about the Albanians?

They cluster east compared to SW Euros, additional Slavic + Greek or Thracian admixture. Iron Age Bulgaria (Thracian) was genetically SE European.
So I would say Albanians are Illyrians altered by Greco-Thracian and Slavic blood.

[Ayetooey]

Pretty sure Nato posted this sample months ago.

[Dick]

They cluster east compared to SW Euros, additional Slavic + Greek or Thracian admixture. Iron Age Bulgaria (Thracian) was genetically SE European.
So I would say Albanians are Illyrians altered by Greco-Thracian and Slavic blood.

So Illyrians were west med people. What about trying out south Germans. They come out as half iron age Nordic half Roman

[Jana]

Pretty sure Nato posted this sample months ago.

Where ? He posted Vučedol, which is bronze age. I never knew for any Iron Age samples, that is people were trolling Bronze Age is too old, those West Med like samples were not Illyrians
, because Illyrians were Iron Age people. HAHA :)))

There is complete continuity from BA to IA.

[Jana]

So Illyrians were west med people. What about trying out south Germans. They come out as half iron age Nordic half Roman

Well this one is closest to Bergamo, which is CisAlpine Gaul + neolithic or Roman like ?

[Dick]

Well this one is closest to Bergamo, which is CisAlpine Gaul + neolithic or Roman like ?
Idk peterski once said that. If south slavs aren’t Slavic because of the admixture then south Germans aren’t Germanic

[Ayetooey]

Where ? He posted Vučedol, which is bronze age. I never knew for any Iron Age samples, that is people were trolling Bronze Age is too old, those West Med like sample were not Illyrians
, because Illyrians were Iron Age people. HAHA :)))

There is complete continuity from BA to IA.

Nvm I checked his thread history it is BA.

It isn't trolling; anyone who knows about ancient history/archaeology academically knows Illyrians came from East Hallstatt during the Iron Age. How ever it was always pretty obvious it was more of a cultural uptake than a genetic replacement like in say West Europe; considering how neolithic shifted non slavic Balkanites are like Albos, Aromanians, Greeks etc; bearing in mind they're probs north shifted compared to their pre 500 AD ancestors.

Mtdna looks to be the same as my dads based off a mtdna predictor I did.

[Jana]

Nvm I checked his thread history it is BA.

It isn't trolling; anyone who knows about ancient history/archaeology academically knows Illyrians came from East Hallstatt during the Iron Age. How ever it was always pretty obvious it was more of a cultural uptake than a genetic replacement like in say West Europe; considering how neolithic shifted non slavic Balkanites are like Albos, Aromanians, Greeks etc; bearing in mind they're probs north shifted compared to their pre 500 AD ancestors.

Mtdna looks to be the same as my dads based off a mtdna predictor I did.

Super cool.
Still clustering with North Italians is def. not that southern as some people imagined. West Med people have more steppe admixture than East Med ones, and some tought Illrians will be Greek like.
Not at all.

They explain our western look compared to SE Slavs, because our native ancestors were already more western (and northern) looking/plotting compared to them.
That is why Bulgarians for example look more eastern than we, and they have less Slavic blood than us.

It's because their native ancestors were Greek like and South Italian like (more SE shifted, more east med), unlike ours.
This explain everything.

[Ayetooey]

Super cool.
Still clustering with North Italians is def. not that southern as some people imagined. West Med people have more steppe admixture than East Med ones, and some tought Illrians will be Greek like.
Not at all.

They explain our western look compared to SE Slavs, because our native ancestors were already more western (and northern) looking/plotting compared to them.
That is why Bulgarians for example look more eastern than we, and they have less Slavic blood than us.

It's because their native ancestors were Greek like and South Italian like, unlike ours.
This explain everything.

One of the Dalmatian samples plotted as North as modern Romanians, and in between North Italians and Iberians in terms of Westness. So defo different to modern day non slavic balkanites. There was an obvious cline from north to south and east to west since the Thracian/Bulgarian sample was a wog genetically and much more southeastern.

I would love for them to get some late samples preceding the gothic and slavic invasions. There was some heavy Celtic settlements in the west Balkans from the 3rd century BC onwards.

[Jana]

One of the Dalmatian samples plotted as North as modern Romanians, and in between North Italians and Iberians in terms of Westness. So defo different to modern day non slavic balkanites. There was an obvious cline from north to south and east to west since the Thracian/Bulgarian sample was a wog genetically and much more southeastern.

I would love for them to get some late samples preceding the gothic and slavic invasions. There was some heavy Celtic settlements in the west Balkans from the 3rd century BC onwards.

Yes, this prove non Slavic Balkanites were also changed since ancient times, more than they would admit.
I would like these samples too.

And Roman era ones. Because I believe Illyrians became more southern than these samples after romanisation.
Latin language always come with some admix, look at Iberia. But in Balkan it was probably less severe.

[Vid Flumina]

Super cool.
Still clustering with North Italians is def. not that southern as some people imagined. West Med people have more steppe admixture than East Med ones, and some tought Illrians will be Greek like.
Not at all.

They explain our western look compared to SE Slavs, because our native ancestors were already more western (and northern) looking/plotting compared to them.
That is why Bulgarians for example look more eastern than we, and they have less Slavic blood than us.

It's because their native ancestors were Greek like and South Italian like (more SE shifted, more east med), unlike ours.
This explain everything.

Did you include Collegno_MA_o1 for Roman input to your model?

[Jana]

Did you include Collegno_MA_o1 for Roman input to your model?

I will try it now. I tired with Germanic sample included, but yielded no result for me. I simply don't have it in any significant amount.

[Ayetooey]

Bronze age Dalmatian posted below. Roman/Italian samples found so far are close to Sicilians, so such an admix would bring locals far to the south/east.

https://i.imgur.com/l3vQ8Wu.png

[Jana]

"sample": "Custom:Feodora_scaled",
"fit": 2.8411,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 62.5,
"HRV_MBA": 30.83,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 6.67,

Fit did not improve, remain the same . I would say Roman input is insignificant. What do you think ?

[Jana]

Bronze age Dalmatian posted below. Roman/Italian samples found so far are close to Sicilians, so such an admix would bring locals far to the south/east.

https://i.imgur.com/l3vQ8Wu.png

My mixed mode Oracle on Eurogenes K13

58.8% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 41.2% North_Italian @ 3.88

:o

[Vid Flumina]

Bronze age Dalmatian posted below. Roman/Italian samples found so far are close to Sicilians, so such an admix would bring locals far to the south/east.

https://i.imgur.com/l3vQ8Wu.png

Avars from Szolad are closest to Belorussians, Poles and Estonians than to Belgorod so Roman input is possible:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?256351-Avars-mom-son-amp-dad-from-Szolad-(Hungary)-on-GEDmatch

Also there's a cline from Slovenia all the way down to Albania/Greece, there's no cline with Northern Italy.

A couple of models for Croatia and Bulgaria, interestingly both "Roman" and paleo-Balkan input seem to be in the same proportions:

"sample": "Croatian:Average",
"fit": 1.2585,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 74.17,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 15,
"HRV_Early_IA": 10.83,

"sample": "Bulgarian:Average",
"fit": 1.4604,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 48.33,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 30,
"BGR_IA": 21.67,

[Jana]

Avars from Szolad are closest to Belorussians, Poles and Estonian than to Belgorod so Roman input is possible:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?256351-Avars-mom-son-amp-dad-from-Szolad-(Hungary)-on-GEDmatch

Also there's a cline from Slovenia all the way down to Albania/Greece, there's no cline with Northern Italy.

A couple of models for Croatia and Bulgaria, interestingly both "Roman" and paleo-Balkan input seems to be in the same proportions:

"sample": "Croatian:Average",
"fit": 1.2585,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 74.17,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 15,
"HRV_Early_IA": 10.83,

"sample": "Bulgarian:Average",
"fit": 1.4604,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 48.33,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 30,
"BGR_IA": 21.67,

Wow, you get fantastic fit using this model. Slavic input in us is very high if this is right model.
I will try model myself the same, because it rejected Iron Age sample for me in earlier run with Szolad.

[Jana]

"sample": "Custom:Feodora_scaled",

"fit": 3.3016,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 72.5,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 20.83,
"HRV_Early_IA": 6.67,

Yeah, bad fit for me, worsened compared to this one:

"fit": 2.9161,

"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 60.83,
"HRV_MBA": 39.17,

I don't know the reason. Looks like I am less Slavic and less Roman than average Croat, but more simplistic Slavo-Illyrian mix 60:40 ?
Not sure I understand this too well.

[Alenka]

Avars from Szolad are closest to Belorussians, Poles and Estonian than to Belgorod so Roman input is possible:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?256351-Avars-mom-son-amp-dad-from-Szolad-(Hungary)-on-GEDmatch

Also there's a cline from Slovenia all the way down to Albania/Greece, there's no cline with Northern Italy.

A couple of models for Croatia and Bulgaria, interestingly both "Roman" and paleo-Balkan input seem to be in the same proportions:

"sample": "Croatian:Average",
"fit": 1.2585,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 74.17,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 15,
"HRV_Early_IA": 10.83,

"sample": "Bulgarian:Average",
"fit": 1.4604,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 48.33,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 30,
"BGR_IA": 21.67,
Very interesting, thanks for sharing. I tried this for Slovenia and got an even closer fit:
"sample": "Slovenian:Average",
"fit": 1.2497,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 74.17,
"HRV_Early_IA": 15.83,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 10,

[Jana]

Very interesting, thanks for sharing. I tried this for Slovenia and got an even closer fit:
"sample": "Slovenian:Average",
"fit": 1.2497,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 74.17,
"HRV_Early_IA": 15.83,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 10,

Very cool, these models make lot of sense and fit is great. Not for me, but for average people indeed.

[Ayetooey]

Average Slovenian/Croatian is almost the same with those samples. Average Croatian sample is obviously based off Kajkavian Croats.

[Jana]

Average Slovenian/Croatian is almost the same with those samples. Average Croatian sample is obviously based off Kajkavian Croats.

It's from Zagreb most likely and that's logical since biggest amount of Croats live there.
I don't think it's pure Kajkavian tho because I am very close to it, only bit more east and even less more south, cloeser to that than Ph2ter is who is Kajkavian. (I think)

But again, he cluster more north than average Slovenes.

[Jana]

https://i.imgur.com/6Oe6Tnr.png

I am extremely close to Croatian G25 average, and Slovenian is little more north.
It shows Croats are genetically pretty homogenous I guess, since I am almost entirely southern in ancestry.

[MagnusDark]

Yes, this prove non Slavic Balkanites were also changed since ancient times, more than they would admit.
I would like these samples too.

And Roman era ones. Because I believe Illyrians became more southern than these samples after romanisation.
Latin language always come with some admix, look at Iberia. But in Balkan it was probably less severe.

You have to bear in mind that we still have no ancient samples from Southern Illyria, Epirus or Macedonia. Albanians largely trace their descent(autosomally speaking) from Southern Illyrians. Whilst the North and Dalmatian Illyrians were probably shifted further north and west(as todays populations).

Of course later admixtures shifted further north and east. However, this is largely anecdotal. It is ultimately irrelevant. Albanians largely possess native Illyrian West Balkan YDNA lineages. Proto-Illyrian YDNA was J2b-L283. The parent clade to V13 near Split and Bronze Age R1b in Bosnia. All 3 of these lineages are the majority in Albanians as a whole(varying region to region). Regardless of the "shift", most Albanians are directly Illyrian via paternal descent.

[Jana]

You have to bear in mind that we still have no ancient samples from Southern Illyria, Epirus or Macedonia. Albanians largely trace their descent(autosomally speaking) from Southern Illyrians. Whilst the North and Dalmatian Illyrians were probably shifted further north and west(as todays populations).

Of course later admixtures shifted further north and east. However, this is largely anecdotal. It is ultimately irrelevant. Albanians largely possess native Illyrian West Balkan YDNA lineages. Proto-Illyrian YDNA was J2b-L283. The parent clade to V13 near Split and Bronze Age R1b in Bosnia. All 3 of these lineages are the majority in Albanians as a whole(varying region to region). Regardless of the "shift", most Albanians are directly Illyrian via paternal descent.

And we are Slavic, but obviously we are not pure Slavs neither are you pure Illyrian. Nothing wrong with that,

[Jana]

I still don't understand how it it possible I am so close to average on G25 and posess even more simplistic mix than typical Croat.
My mother is only half Croat.

Extremely weird and mysterious.

[MagnusDark]

And we are Slavic, but obviously we are not pure Slavs neither are you pure Illyrian. Nothing wrong with that,

Of course. However, I am merely saying people are jumping the gun with regards to the shift. To assume Illyrians were genetically homogeneous all over is wrong. Romans did as they always do(lump groups together). There certainly was genetic deviation region to region as you have among population genetics results today. Naturally Illyrians in Dalmatia will be a little different than those in Albania, ,Macedonia, Kosova etc. They were more in contact with Italic/Celtic tribes on their western periphery. So the shift is no mystery. This is why we look at YDNA to better understand the migratory patterns of a specific clade and try and fill the blanks in as data presents itself.

If southern Illyrians plot as southwest as the Dalmatian samples then we can talk about how big a impact admixture had.

Theres also random recombination events generationally. Some admixtures can be selected for over others.

[Jana]

Tried using different early Slav sample from Bohemia, fit is slightly worse than with Szolad (and with Iron Age Croatia instead of Dalmatia MBA is horrific), again just Slav + Balkan, Roman input is 0.

https://i.imgur.com/gidKfjP.png

[Dick]

"sample": "Custom:Feodora_scaled",

"fit": 3.3016,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 72.5,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 20.83,
"HRV_Early_IA": 6.67,

Yeah, bad fit for me, worsened compared to this one:

"fit": 2.9161,

"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 60.83,
"HRV_MBA": 39.17,

I don't know the reason. Looks like I am less Slavic and less Roman than average Croat, but more simplistic Slavo-Illyrian mix 60:40 ?
Not sure I understand this too well.
thats what i get

"fit": 2.1099,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 62.5,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 30.83,
"HRV_Early_IA": 6.67

"fit": 3.2097,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 56.67,
"HRV_MBA": 43.33

[MagnusDark]

btw is this on the auto nmonte run for k36 ancient? or is this a self-run nmonte? I could post my G25 if someone could run me.

[Jana]

thats what i get

"fit": 2.1099,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 62.5,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 30.83,
"HRV_Early_IA": 6.67

"fit": 3.2097,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 56.67,
"HRV_MBA": 43.33

Edit: seen wrongly

Your first model has great fit, obviously it work for you. :thumb001:
Suprised how much Roman and how little Illyrian you have :D

[Dick]

btw is this on the auto nmonte run for k36 ancient? or is this a self-run nmonte? I could post my G25 if someone could run me.

Here, but its a pain if youre on your phone

http://185.144.156.77:3000/

[Jana]

btw is this on the auto nmonte run for k36 ancient? or is this a self-run nmonte? I could post my G25 if someone could run me.

yes, we are using this (me at least): http://185.144.156.77:3000/

[Dick]

Edit: seen wrongly

Your first model has great fit, obviously it work for you. :thumb001:
Suprised how much Roman and how little Illyrian you have :D

yeah but how accurate can it be since Hun avar is one sample, Hrv IA also one sample but ITA collegno 17 samples?

[Jana]

Are you all using scaled or unscaled corrdinates ? I am using scaled. is there a difference ?

[Jana]

Of course. However, I am merely saying people are jumping the gun with regards to the shift. To assume Illyrians were genetically homogeneous all over is wrong. Romans did as they always do(lump groups together). There certainly was genetic deviation region to region as you have among population genetics results today. Naturally Illyrians in Dalmatia will be a little different than those in Albania, ,Macedonia, Kosova etc. They were more in contact with Italic/Celtic tribes on their western periphery. So the shift is no mystery. This is why we look at YDNA to better understand the migratory patterns of a specific clade and try and fill the blanks in as data presents itself.

If southern Illyrians plot as southwest as the Dalmatian samples then we can talk about how big a impact admixture had.

Theres also random recombination events generationally. Some admixtures can be selected for over others.

Yes, we need southern Illyrian samples. They should be closer to Greeks, because of promixity and mixing.

[Vid Flumina]

Very interesting, thanks for sharing. I tried this for Slovenia and got an even closer fit:
"sample": "Slovenian:Average",
"fit": 1.2497,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 74.17,
"HRV_Early_IA": 15.83,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 10,

Not bad, though realistically Slovenia might require additional Germanic and some Italo-Celtic (some of it might be sucked into HRV_IA hence the paleo-Balkan/Roman ratio now reversed)

[dududud]

Very good west-med people.

[Dick]

Edit: seen wrongly

Your first model has great fit, obviously it work for you. :thumb001:
Suprised how much Roman and how little Illyrian you have :D

Who is ITA Collegno?

anyway here, it's all pen=0;

"fit": 2.9872,
"CZE_Early_Slav": 56.67,
"ITA_Collegno_MA": 43.33,
"HRV_Early_IA": 0


fit": 3.4716,
"CZE_Early_Slav": 56.67,
"HRV_MBA": 43.33

[Jana]

yeah but how accurate can it be since Hun avar is one sample, Hrv IA also one sample but ITA collegno 17 samples?

Avar Szolad has 2 , BA Dalmatia also 2. Small number of samples is better if they are typical because in large sample size outlying individuals skew the results.

[Dick]

Are you all using scaled or unscaled corrdinates ? I am using scaled. is there a difference ?

that website only uses scaled anyway

[Hulu]

Nope. Illyrians were cloest to North Italians and Iberians, West Med like people.

You're wrong again, Italians have more east med and less west med than Albanians, certainly less than me.

[Alenka]

Not bad, though realistically Slovenia might require additional Germanic and some Italo-Celtic (some of it might be sucked into HRV_IA hence the paleo-Balkan/Roman ratio now reversed)
Which samples would you suggest trying for those two components?

[Jana]

Who is ITA Collegno?

anyway here, it's all pen=0;

"fit": 2.9872,
"CZE_Early_Slav": 56.67,
"ITA_Collegno_MA": 43.33,
"HRV_Early_IA": 0


fit": 3.4716,
"CZE_Early_Slav": 56.67,
"HRV_MBA": 43.33

Those are Romans.

[Jana]

that website only uses scaled anyway

are you using that website or one for unscaled ?

[Jana]

You're wrong again, Italians have more east med and less west med than Albanians, certainly less than me.

No they don't, I am not talking about Sicilians and south Italians but North Italians who are genetically overlaping Iberians.
You are butthurt.

[Dick]

are you using that website or one for unscaled ?

I only know of that website for scaled

[Dick]

Those are Romans.

Collegno is near Turin though. Was he R1b :puke

[Hulu]

No they don't, I am not talking about Sicilians and south Italians but North Italians who are genetically overlaping Iberians.
You are butthurt.

You're too old to respond with insults. I am as south as southern Italians, it's just the components are different.

Oh I am more west med than Viriato :lol: or this Portuguese

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?292284-Post-your-combined-Mediterranean-admixture-of-Eurogenes-K13&p=6087720&viewfull=1#post6087720

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?292284-Post-your-combined-Mediterranean-admixture-of-Eurogenes-K13&p=6087725&viewfull=1#post6087725

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?292284-Post-your-combined-Mediterranean-admixture-of-Eurogenes-K13&p=6087714&viewfull=1#post6087714

[Jana]

Collegno is near Turin though. Was he R1b :puke

I see R1b and E1b

[Ayetooey]

You're too old to respond with insults.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?292284-Post-your-combined-Mediterranean-admixture-of-Eurogenes-K13&p=6087725&viewfull=1#post6087725

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?292284-Post-your-combined-Mediterranean-admixture-of-Eurogenes-K13&p=6087714&viewfull=1#post6087714

He's southern Italian.

[Jana]

You're too old to respond with insults.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?292284-Post-your-combined-Mediterranean-admixture-of-Eurogenes-K13&p=6087725&viewfull=1#post6087725

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?292284-Post-your-combined-Mediterranean-admixture-of-Eurogenes-K13&p=6087714&viewfull=1#post6087714

He is South Italian, nice, and cluster with Greeks.

You jumped on me because you are disatisfied this sample is closest to Italians from Bergamo, that is all.
It's different from modern Albanians.

[Vid Flumina]

Which samples would you suggest trying for those two components?

DEU_MA and Hallstatt_Bylany (for lack of anything better)

[Hulu]

He is South Italian, nice, and cluster with Greeks.

You jumped on me because you are disatisfied this sample is closest to Italians from Bergamo, that is all.
It's different from modern Albanians.

Not about that, we discussed this before and of course northern illyrians would be closer to northern Italian than us, just as we have a cline within us, from north to south. I objected to the west med - east med like comparisson

[MagnusDark]

closest fit I could get.

"fit": 2.4962,
"GRC_Mycenaean": 42.5,
"HRV_MBA": 36.67,
"CZE_Early_Slav": 20.83,
"HRV_Early_IA": 0,
"closestDistances": [
"HRV_MBA:I4331: 4.111448",
"HRV_MBA:I4332: 4.433221",
"HRV_Early_IA:I3313: 5.280019",
"GRC_Mycenaean:I9041: 6.788481",
"GRC_Mycenaean:I9033: 7.400296",
"GRC_Mycenaean:I9006: 7.482676",
"GRC_Mycenaean:I9010: 8.547160",
"CZE_Early_Slav:RISE569: 10.736587"

[Jana]

Not about that, we discussed this before and of course northern illyrians would be closer to northern Italian than us, just as we have a cline within us, from north to south. I objected to the west med - east med like comparisson

Ok, but by west med I don't mean component itself (peak in Sardinia which is very different genetically). By west med I mean that cluster (geographically), Iberia + North Italy

[Hulu]

He is South Italian, nice, and cluster with Greeks.

You jumped on me because you are disatisfied this sample is closest to Italians from Bergamo, that is all.
It's different from modern Albanians.

Half Campanian which is more central and quarter northern.

[Jana]

closest fit I could get.

"fit": 2.4962,
"GRC_Mycenaean": 42.5,
"HRV_MBA": 36.67,
"CZE_Early_Slav": 20.83,
"HRV_Early_IA": 0,
"closestDistances": [
"HRV_MBA:I4331: 4.111448",
"HRV_MBA:I4332: 4.433221",
"HRV_Early_IA:I3313: 5.280019",
"GRC_Mycenaean:I9041: 6.788481",
"GRC_Mycenaean:I9033: 7.400296",
"GRC_Mycenaean:I9006: 7.482676",
"GRC_Mycenaean:I9010: 8.547160",
"CZE_Early_Slav:RISE569: 10.736587"

That's a very good fit.

[Jana]

Half Campanian which is more central and quarter northern.

Genetically he is more southern than he expected, go and ask him. But that is not important!

[Jana]

I tried to lower my fit with Hallstat and/or medieval German samples, didn't work out.

This remain my best fit :)

"fit": 2.9161,

"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 60.83,
"HRV_MBA": 39.17,

[Jana]

Magnus look like ancient Greek + Illyrian + Slavic mix, until we get south Illyrian samples at least. They should be between those first 2

[Hulu]

Genetically he is more southern than he expected, go and ask him. But that is not important!

But what's your point really? You said Illyrians are like north Italians. When they are in fact north Illyrian by location. Just as Italians have a north to south cline so do we.

[Jana]

But what's your point really? You said Illyrians are like north Italians. When they are in fact north Illyrian by location. Just as Italians have a north to south cline so do we.

Can be, but we don't know until you get ancient Albanian samples. I am obviously speaking about Illyrians from my own country, modeling with them work for me.

[ph2ter]

I see Early Iron Age sample from Croatia added to nMonte runner. That's very exciting and I didn't know we had anything beyond middle bronze age.
Anyone know where is it from, what is it genetically like ?

1200 BC
mtDNA: HV0e

I tried modeling myself with Avar Szolad and that, but fit is rather bad (close to 4). Suprisingly Dalmatian MBA sample works lot better with me (excellent fit below 3),
shouldn't later samples provide better fit ?

If you know anything about this sample help to shed some light.

Nothing new except its name.
In previous versions it was called Balkans_BA:I3313.

[ph2ter]

It's from Zagreb most likely and that's logical since biggest amount of Croats live there.
I don't think it's pure Kajkavian tho because I am very close to it, only bit more east and even less more south, cloeser to that than Ph2ter is who is Kajkavian. (I think)

But again, he cluster more north than average Slovenes.

"sample": "Custom:AGUser_ph2ter",
"fit": 1.921,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 83.33,
"HRV_Early_IA": 11.67,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 5,


"closestDistances":
"HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1: 2.473108",
"HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2: 4.423726",
"HRV_Early_IA:I3313: 9.382015",
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL30: 14.856289",
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL38: 14.903409",
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL25: 15.140503"


Average Croatian is average Croatian, not average Kajkavian Croatian.
Average Kajkavian is more northeastern than Slovenian. Slovenes in average have more admixture from local pre-Slavic populations than Kajkavian Croatians who are more Slavic and less local (Illyrian or Celtic)

[ph2ter]

yeah but how accurate can it be since Hun avar is one sample, Hrv IA also one sample but ITA collegno 17 samples?

ITA_Collegno_MA_o1 are only 3 samples. _o1 means outlier group 1.

[ph2ter]

"sample": "Custom:Feodora_scaled",
"fit": 2.8411,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 62.5,
"HRV_MBA": 30.83,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 6.67,

Fit did not improve, remain the same . I would say Roman input is insignificant. What do you think ?

My:
"sample": "Custom:AGUser_ph2ter",
"fit": 2.0471,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 85,
"HRV_MBA": 11.67,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 3.33,


"closestDistances":
"HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1: 2.473108",
"HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2: 4.423726",
"HRV_MBA:I4331: 9.178576",
"HRV_MBA:I4332: 9.711234",
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL30: 14.856289",
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL38: 14.903409",
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL25: 15.140503"

},

[Celine]

Someone mentioned Kajkavian Croatian, so I'm here.

[ph2ter]

What? Can you share your results in gedmatch and G25?

Nice to see here someone like me. :)

[Celine]

What? Can you share your results in gedmatch and G25?

Nice to see here someone like me. :)

I don't have them, but soon, very soon. :)

I didn't see you around here, nice to meet you too. :) I'm known here for having 100% dinarid look altough I'm Kajkavian. :D

[ph2ter]

I don't have them, but soon, very soon. :)

I didn't see you around here, nice to meet you too. :) I'm known here for having 100% dinarid look altough I'm Kajkavian. :D

I am not here very long. I was more in Anthrogenica. Mainly in autosomal section.
You understand taxonomy? How do you classify my phenotype?

[Jana]

Nothing new except its name.
In previous versions it was called Balkans_BA:I3313.

Why did somebody change it's name ? :picard2:


"sample": "Custom:AGUser_ph2ter",
"fit": 1.921,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 83.33,
"HRV_Early_IA": 11.67,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 5,


"closestDistances":
"HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1: 2.473108",
"HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2: 4.423726",
"HRV_Early_IA:I3313: 9.382015",
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL30: 14.856289",
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL38: 14.903409",
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:CL25: 15.140503"


Average Croatian is average Croatian, not average Kajkavian Croatian.
Average Kajkavian is more northeastern than Slovenian. Slovenes in average have more admixture from local pre-Slavic populations than Kajkavian Croatians who are more Slavic and less local (Illyrian or Celtic)

:thumb001:
Yup, that's what I said. G25 average isn't Kajkavian but average for Croatia, probably like typical inhabitant of Zagreb, who are mix of all Cro regions.

[Jana]

Very interestingly, I menaged to lower the fit for myself adding Iron Age Baltic sample.

"fit": 2.6813,

"HRV_MBA": 46.67,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 29.17,
"Baltic_EST_IA": 24.17,

[Jana]

Additionaly better when adding Roman, now it works for me. I guess I have something extra northeastern.

fit": 2.4673,

"HRV_MBA": 33.33,
"Baltic_EST_IA": 32.5,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 21.67,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 12.5,

Even slightly better when adding Mycenean instead of Roman! :o now this is really good fit...:thumb001:

"fit": 2.3808,

"Baltic_EST_IA": 36.67,
"HRV_MBA": 23.33,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 22.5,
"GRC_Mycenaean": 17.5,

[ph2ter]

Another model for you and me (unscaled):

[1] "distance%=0.8333"

ph2ter

HUN_Avar_Szolad,33.4
DEU_MA,22.6
RUS_Sunghir_MA,22.2
Scythian_MDA,8.2
Baltic_EST_IA,5
CZE_Early_Slav,3.8
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1,2.6
HRV_Early_IA,1.2
BGR_IA,0.8
HRV_MBA,0.2

The same but grouped:

BALTO-SLAVIC: 64.4%
BALKAN: 10.4%
SOUTHEAST-GERMANIC: 22.6%
ROMAN: 2.6%


[1] "distance%=1.7215"

Feodora

Baltic_EST_IA,28
CZE_Early_Slav,18.2
Scythian_MDA,13.8
HRV_MBA,12
HUN_Avar_Szolad,10.8
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1,7
DEU_Roman,6.4
BGR_IA,3.6
RUS_Sunghir_MA,0.2

BALTO-SLAVIC: 57.2%
BALKAN: 29.4%
SOUTHEAST-GERMANIC: 0%
ROMAN: 13.4%

You don't have Germanic, but composition of your Balto-Slavic is more northern and western than mine.

[Jana]

Amazing work, thank you so much! :thumb001:

[Ford]

Another model for you and me (unscaled):

[1] "distance%=0.8333"

ph2ter

HUN_Avar_Szolad,33.4
DEU_MA,22.6
RUS_Sunghir_MA,22.2
Scythian_MDA,8.2
Baltic_EST_IA,5
CZE_Early_Slav,3.8
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1,2.6
HRV_Early_IA,1.2
BGR_IA,0.8
HRV_MBA,0.2

The same but grouped:

BALTO-SLAVIC: 64.4%
BALKAN: 10.4%
SOUTHEAST-GERMANIC: 22.6%
ROMAN: 2.6%


[1] "distance%=1.7215"

Feodora

Baltic_EST_IA,28
CZE_Early_Slav,18.2
Scythian_MDA,13.8
HRV_MBA,12
HUN_Avar_Szolad,10.8
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1,7
DEU_Roman,6.4
BGR_IA,3.6
RUS_Sunghir_MA,0.2

BALTO-SLAVIC: 57.2%
BALKAN: 29.4%
SOUTHEAST-GERMANIC: 0%
ROMAN: 13.4%

You don't have Germanic, but composition of your Balto-Slavic is more northern and western than mine.

I think you have my coordinates, can you run me too with that model if you don't mind?

[ph2ter]

I think you have my coordinates, can you run me too with that model if you don't mind?

[1] "distance%=1.2042"

Ford

HUN_Avar_Szolad,28.2
Scythian_MDA,20.6
Baltic_EST_IA,18.6
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1,9.6
RUS_Sunghir_MA,9.2
HRV_MBA,5.6
CZE_Early_Slav,4.2
BGR_IA,2.8
DEU_Roman,1.2

BALTO-SLAVIC: 60.2%
BALKAN: 29.0%
SOUTHEAST-GERMANIC: 0%
ROMAN: 10.8%

[Hulu]

They cluster east compared to SW Euros, additional Slavic + Greek or Thracian admixture. Iron Age Bulgaria (Thracian) was genetically SE European.
So I would say Albanians are Illyrians altered by Greco-Thracian and Slavic blood.

I should probably stop reading your posts but you keep talking about Albanians. Why altered? Why should we be exactly like SW Euros when we are neighboring greeks and slavs. Do you think think there's a vacuum between them and us? This is a continuum of geographic location.

[Jana]

I should probably stop reading your posts but you keep talking about Albanians. Why altered? Why should we be exactly like SW Euros when we are neighboring greeks and slavs. Do you think think there's a vacuum between them and us? This is a continuum of geographic location.

You should stop pestering me because it's getting boring and I am tired of genetic nationalists and ''muh purity''.
Albanians have Slavic admixture like all other Balkanites. Enjoy it.

[Hulu]

You should stop pestering me because it's getting boring and I am tired of genetic nationalists and ''muh purity''.
Albanians have Slavic admixture like all other Balkanites. Enjoy it.

But you make no sense, the logic you're using it's very illogical. You expect us like Spanish while we are in the Balkans. Stop talking about Albanians already.

[Jana]

But you make no sense, the logic you're using it's very illogical. You expect us like Spanish while we are in the Balkans. Stop talking about Albanians already.

Stop harassing me and telling me what to do. We are just discussing possibilites and expressing our opinions.
If you don't like my posts, ignore them and leave me alone. Thanks.

[Hulu]

Stop harassing me and telling me what to do. We are just discussing possibilites and expressing our opinions.
If you don't like my posts, ignore them and leave me alone. Thanks.

I'm trying to illuminate you

[ph2ter]

When I put SWE_IA, then I get

[1] "distance%=0.8327"

ph2ter

BALTO-SLAVIC,63
SOUTHEAST_GERMANIC,20.8
BALKAN,9.6
SWE_IA,4
ROMAN,2.6

SWE_IA is Nordic, but have some leanings toward Baltic.

And + RUS_Ingria_IA

[1] "distance%=0.7732"

ph2ter

BALTO-SLAVIC,49.6
SOUTHEAST_GERMANIC,20.8
BALKAN,12.8
RUS_Ingria_IA,10.2
ROMAN,3.8
SWE_IA,2.8

[Jana]

I would like if some of you could share your insight in this thread:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?294383-Help-me-out-figure-my-mother-s-ancestry/page6

It's clear as day I got absolutely nothing Germanic and am not more than NE Europe + Med mix.
It makes it harder to figure what is half of my mom ancestry, because my DNA result don't match what family names tell me.

She is suposed to be super mixed, but none of that shows in me. I am just regular Dalmatian Croat.

Bizzare! :D

[ph2ter]

I would like if some of you could share your insight in this thread:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?294383-Help-me-out-figure-my-mother-s-ancestry/page6

It's clear as day I got absolutely nothing Germanic and am not more than NE Europe + Med mix.
It makes it harder to figure what is half of my mom ancestry, because my DNA result don't match what family names tell me.

She is suposed to be super mixed, but none of that shows in me. I am just regular Dalmatian Croat.

Bizzare! :D

You could be very different than she is. It is a matter of dice. Maybe you did not get her German part.

[MagnusDark]

[1] "distance%=1.2042"

Ford

HUN_Avar_Szolad,28.2
Scythian_MDA,20.6
Baltic_EST_IA,18.6
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1,9.6
RUS_Sunghir_MA,9.2
HRV_MBA,5.6
CZE_Early_Slav,4.2
BGR_IA,2.8
DEU_Roman,1.2

BALTO-SLAVIC: 60.2%
BALKAN: 29.0%
SOUTHEAST-GERMANIC: 0%
ROMAN: 10.8%

If you still have my coordinates could you run me under this model as well?(if its no trouble).

[ph2ter]

If you still have my coordinates could you run me under this model as well?(if its no trouble).

[1] "distance%=1.9559"

MagnusDark

BALKAN,83.8
ROMAN,10.4
BALTO-SLAVIC,5.8


or

[1] "distance%=1.953"

MagnusDark

BGR_IA,35.8
HRV_MBA,35.8
Scythian_MDA,11.4
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1,10
Baltic_EST_IA,2.8
CZE_Early_Slav,2.4
HUN_Avar_Szolad,1.2
RUS_Sunghir_MA,0.6

[Dick]

I did scaled



"fit": 1.5565,

"RUS_Sunghir_MA": 30,
"Scythian_MDA": 21.67,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 15.83,
"Baltic_EST_IA": 15,
"BGR_IA": 10.83,
"DEU_MA": 3.33,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 3.33,
"CZE_Early_Slav": 0,
"HRV_Early_IA": 0,
"HRV_MBA": 0,

"closestDistances": [

"DEU_MA:AED_1135: 4.483054",
"HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1: 5.465189",
"CZE_Early_Slav:RISE569: 5.484033",
"Scythian_MDA:scy305: 6.356073",
"HRV_MBA:I4331: 6.549989",
"DEU_MA:ALH_3: 6.628341",
"RUS_Sunghir_MA:Sunghir6: 6.689830",
"Scythian_MDA:scy197: 6.816834",
"Scythian_MDA:scy301: 6.824213",
"HRV_Early_IA:I3313: 6.885392",
"Scythian_MDA:scy192: 6.951831",
"DEU_MA:STR_480: 7.039224",
"HRV_MBA:I4332: 7.202969",
"Scythian_MDA:scy311: 7.205523",
"DEU_MA:ALH_1: 7.361945",
"DEU_MA:ALH_10: 7.436017",
"Scythian_MDA:scy300: 7.467119",
"DEU_MA:STR_486: 7.582789",
"DEU_MA:NW_255: 7.702780",


level 2 access nmonte runner if anyone wants to use it

http://185.144.156.77:3000/?passcode=level2p0938

[MagnusDark]

[1] "distance%=1.9559"

MagnusDark

BALKAN,83.8
ROMAN,10.4
BALTO-SLAVIC,5.8


or

[1] "distance%=1.953"

MagnusDark

BGR_IA,35.8
HRV_MBA,35.8
Scythian_MDA,11.4
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1,10
Baltic_EST_IA,2.8
CZE_Early_Slav,2.4
HUN_Avar_Szolad,1.2
RUS_Sunghir_MA,0.6

Thank you good sir! Even tighter fit.

[Bessarion]

Can I join a game ?

[ph2ter]

Can I join a game ?

Yes.

[1] "distance%=1.2975"

Bessarion

BALTO-SLAVIC,48.6
SOUTHEAST_GERMANIC,33.8
ROMAN,9.4
BALKAN,7.8
NORDIC-BALTIC,0.4


[1] "distance%=1.307"

Bessarion

CZE_Early_Slav,36.6
DEU_MA,32.6
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1,8.4
Scythian_MDA,6.8
Baltic_EST_IA,6.2
HUN_Avar_Szolad,5.8
BGR_IA,1.4
RUS_Ingria_IA,1.2
HRV_Early_IA,0.4
SWE_IA,0.4
HRV_MBA,0.2


________
My wife

[1] "distance%=1.0702"

ph2ter_wife

BALTO-SLAVIC,64.6
BALKAN,20.6
SOUTHEAST_GERMANIC,9.8
ROMAN,3.2
NORDIC-BALTIC,1.8


My father:
[1] "distance%=0.8587"

ph2ter_dad

BALTO-SLAVIC,60.6
BALKAN,23.4
SOUTHEAST_GERMANIC,7.6
ROMAN,7.2
NORDIC-BALTIC,1.2


My son:
[1] "distance%=0.9728"

ph2ter_son

BALTO-SLAVIC,60.6
BALKAN,25.8
ROMAN,6.2
SOUTHEAST_GERMANIC,6.2
NORDIC-BALTIC,1.2


me:
[1] "distance%=0.78"

ph2ter

BALTO-SLAVIC,59
SOUTHEAST_GERMANIC,20
BALKAN,12.2
NORDIC-BALTIC,4.4
ROMAN,4.4

[Jana]

Bessarion has serious Germanic admixture !

[Bessarion]

Yes.

[1] "distance%=1.2975"

Bessarion

BALTO-SLAVIC,48.6
SOUTHEAST_GERMANIC,33.8
ROMAN,9.4
BALKAN,7.8
NORDIC-BALTIC,0.4


[1] "distance%=1.307"

Bessarion

CZE_Early_Slav,36.6
DEU_MA,32.6
ITA_Collegno_MA_o1,8.4
Scythian_MDA,6.8
Baltic_EST_IA,6.2
HUN_Avar_Szolad,5.8
BGR_IA,1.4
RUS_Ingria_IA,1.2
HRV_Early_IA,0.4
SWE_IA,0.4
HRV_MBA,0.2


________
My wife

[1] "distance%=1.0702"

ph2ter_wife

BALTO-SLAVIC,64.6
BALKAN,20.6
SOUTHEAST_GERMANIC,9.8
ROMAN,3.2
NORDIC-BALTIC,1.8


My father:
[1] "distance%=0.8587"

ph2ter_dad

BALTO-SLAVIC,60.6
BALKAN,23.4
SOUTHEAST_GERMANIC,7.6
ROMAN,7.2
NORDIC-BALTIC,1.2


My son:
[1] "distance%=0.9728"

ph2ter_son

BALTO-SLAVIC,60.6
BALKAN,25.8
ROMAN,6.2
SOUTHEAST_GERMANIC,6.2
NORDIC-BALTIC,1.2


me:
[1] "distance%=0.78"

ph2ter

BALTO-SLAVIC,59
SOUTHEAST_GERMANIC,20
BALKAN,12.2
NORDIC-BALTIC,4.4
ROMAN,4.4

Thanks for the work...btw. what sample is this DEU_MA.

[Jana]

btw. what sample is this DEU_MA.

Medieval Germany

[Dick]

"fit": 1.3862,

"RUS_Ingria_IA": 26.67,
"BGR_IA": 23.33,
"Scythian_MDA": 22.5,
"ITA_Collegno_MA_o1": 12.5,
"DEU_MA": 9.17,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 3.33,
"Baltic_EST_IA": 2.5,
"CZE_Early_Slav": 0,
"HRV_Early_IA": 0,
"HRV_MBA": 0,
"SWE_IA": 0,


"closestDistances": [

"DEU_MA:AED_1135: 4.483054",
"HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1: 5.465189",
"CZE_Early_Slav:RISE569: 5.484033",
"Scythian_MDA:scy305: 6.356073",
"HRV_MBA:I4331: 6.549989",
"DEU_MA:ALH_3: 6.628341

[Ljubic]

Where do i get my coordinates from?

[Dick]

Where do i get my coordinates from?

http://bga101.blogspot.com/2018/02/the-powerful-global-25-now-available.html