Y dna of Serbs from Vrbas region (Bosnia)

[Pribislav]

It's purple color on the map (Врбас).
https://s15.postimg.cc/s4jg6bnu3/image.png

Sample 120

I2-Y3120 = 44.2%
I2-PH908 = 28.3%

R1a-Z282 = 17.5%
R1a-M458 = 5.8%

E-M35 = 14.2%
E-V13 = 13.3%

N-P189.2 = 7.5%

I1-M253 = 5%
I1-P109 = 2.5%
I1-Z63 = 2.5%

R1b-M269 = 3.3%
R1b-BY611 = 1.7%

J2b-M102 = 3.3%
J2b-M205 = 1.7%
J2b-M241 = 1.7%

J2a-M410 = 1.7%
J2a-M92 - 0.8%

J1-M267 = 1.7%

T-L446 = 0.8%

I2b = 0.8%

I = 50%
R = 20.8%
E = 14.2%
N = 7.5%
J = 6.7%
T = 0.8%

Source: "Serbian dna project"

[Ayetooey]

Very northern by Y dna.

[Ayetooey]

Pribislav, what do you think is the reasons Serbs lack R1a-M458; it's always a very small percentage of overall y dna in Serbs, yet in Sorbs its their main haplogroup (63% R1a, and 58% of it is R1a-M458). I think the Serb/Sorb connection is utter bullshit

[Jana]

Is Dubica this region or no ?

[Voskos]

N is quite high, indicative of a baltic affinity.

[Jana]

N is quite high, indicative of a baltic affinity.

It's not Baltic branch, but something very unique for some Montenegrin tribes and of unknown origin.

[Pribislav]

Is Dubica this region or no ?

Dubica is in Krajina (Крајина) on the map.

[Jana]

Dubica is in Krajina (Крајина) on the map.

and Banja Luka ?

[Pribislav]

Pribislav, what do you think is the reasons Serbs lack R1a-M458; it's always a very small percentage of overall y dna in Serbs, yet in Sorbs its their main haplogroup (63% R1a, and 58% of it is R1a-M458). I think the Serb/Sorb connection is utter bullshit

There is theory that proto-Serbs came from western Czechia, south of Lusatia. According to that theory Sorbs (Wends, Milčani) adopted Serbian name because they were in the alliance with Serbs from western Czechia.

Sorbian population is very small today, and 63% R1a in them can be genetic drift. Maybe their y dna 1000 years ago was different than today.

[Pribislav]

and Banja Luka ?

Banja Luka is counted in this statistic.

[Pribislav]

Very northern by Y dna.

Y dna of Serbs from this part of Bosnia is similar as y dna of Herzegovinian Serbs and Bosnian Muslims.

Herzegovinian Serbs https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?276682-Herzegovinian-Serbs-Y-DNA

Bosnian Muslims https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?253441-Bosnian-Muslim-Y-DNA-results-(273-samples)

[MagnusDark]

Pribislav, what do you think is the reasons Serbs lack R1a-M458; it's always a very small percentage of overall y dna in Serbs, yet in Sorbs its their main haplogroup (63% R1a, and 58% of it is R1a-M458). I think the Serb/Sorb connection is utter bullshit

You're right. It is also possible one small elite of the overall tribe gave their name to the rest of the men who were mostly I2/Z280. I don't speak Slavic though, so I do not know linguists position on the matter of the term.

I also think most of Sorb M458 is L260, like 60/40(if I am not mistaken). They do have L1029 and YP515 but not as high as L260. Whereas Serbs, their M458 is mostly YP515/L1029. They do have L260 though.

About 35% of all Sorbs from Rębała's study have M458 and DYS439=10, what suggests R1a-M458-L260-YP256 (or even YP254). Sorbs may have more YP254 than average Poles despite being not classified as Lechitic.

[Ayetooey]

You're right. It is also possible one small elite of the overall tribe gave their name to the rest of the men who were mostly I2/Z280. I don't speak Slavic though, so I do not know linguists position on the matter of the term.

I also think most of Sorb M458 is L260, like 60/40(if I am not mistaken). They do have L1029 and YP515 but not as high as L260. Whereas Serbs, their M458 is mostly YP515/L1029. They do have Z280 though.

I've pondered that before; White Serbs and White Croats came to the Balkans in the 7th century, whereas other Sclaveni tribes had already settled and taken control over much of the Balkans from the 6th century onwards. Perhaps the White Serbs just absorbed many other Sclaveni tribes already living in the balkans, who were as you said I2/R1a-zz80. Or as Pribislav said, the Y dna of modern Sorbs has changed drastically over the past 1000 years due to genetic drift and isolation; it's hard to tell without some medieval samples.

[MagnusDark]

There is theory that proto-Serbs came from western Czechia, south of Lusatia. According to that theory Sorbs (Wends, Milčani) adopted Serbian name because they were in the alliance with Serbs from western Czechia.

Sorbian population is very small today, and 63% R1a in them can be genetic drift. Maybe their y dna 1000 years ago was different than today.

Major chunk of Sorbian M458 is L260. Whilst Serbs have it, theirs is mostly L1029/YP515. 35 percent of Sorbs in one study were all L260. They have a 60/40 M458/Z280 breakdown within R1a.

[MagnusDark]

I've pondered that before; White Serbs and White Croats came to the Balkans in the 7th century, whereas other Sclaveni tribes had already settled and taken control over much of the Balkans from the 6th century onwards. Perhaps the White Serbs just absorbed many other Sclaveni tribes already living in the balkans, who were as you said I2/R1a-zz80. Or as Pribislav said, the Y dna of modern Sorbs has changed drastically over the past 1000 years due to genetic drift and isolation; it's hard to tell without some medieval samples.

Possible. However About 35% of all Sorbs from Rębała's study have M458 and DYS439=10, what suggests R1a-M458-L260-YP256 (or even YP254). Sorbs may have more YP254 than average Poles despite being not classified as Lechitic. there is supposedly a 60/40 break in R1a with most being M458. If 35 percent of Sorbs in one study ere L260, then they probably didn't carry as high a level of L1029/YP515.

Also, do any M458 Serbs have distant Sorb matches within Y?

I know Serbs have L260, but it seems next to nothing. More common in Croats even though Z280 is majority. The problem is Sorbs go back only to the middle ages. Lineages common in them were likely already well dispersed amongst other Slavic tribes.

Also L1029 is overwhelmingly common in R1a of Bulgarians and Romanians and North Macedonians who took a different migratory path.

[Pribislav]

Common thing for all S. Slavic Dinaric talibans (except Montenegrins) is high I2a, and very low R1b. :)

[Ayetooey]

Possible. However About 35% of all Sorbs from Rębała's study have M458 and DYS439=10, what suggests R1a-M458-L260-YP256 (or even YP254). Sorbs may have more YP254 than average Poles despite being not classified as Lechitic. there is supposedly a 60/40 break in R1a with most being M458. If 35 percent of Sorbs in one study ere L260, then they probably didn't carry as high a level of L1029/YP515.

Also, do any M458 Serbs have distant Sorb matches within Y?

I know Serbs have L260, but it seems next to nothing. More common in Croats even though Z280 is majority. The problem is Sorbs go back only to the middle ages. Lineages common in them were likely already well dispersed amongst other Slavic tribes.

Also L1029 is overwhelmingly common in R1a of Bulgarians and Romanians and North Macedonians who took a different migratory path.

I don't know any R1a-m458 Serbs from here nor from the project, so I'm not too sure if there's any matches. There's one subclade of I2a1b on Yfull which has a match in east Germany, but concerning Sorbs I2a is only 2.4%, all of which is Din North, so din south/ph908 is 0% according to these stats I found. I've read before that m458 as a whole is more common in Croats than Serbs but I don't know how true that is.

R1a-M417 =8.13
CTS8816>YP315, L1280
CTS3402>YP951 или Y2613

R1a-M458 =56.91
R-M458 (xL260) =23.57
R-L260 =33.33
______
R1b-M269 =9.75
R-L48 =4.06
R-P312 =3.25
R-L23 =1.62
R-U106 =0.81
______
I1-M253 =9.75
I-M253 =6.50
I-L22 =2.43
I-M91 =0.81
______
E1b-V13 =4.87
______
I2-CTS10228 (Dinaric North) =2.43
______
G2a-P15 =2.43
______
J2a-M410 =1.62
______
I2-M223 =1.62
______
J2b-M241 =0.81
______
J1-M267 =0.81
______
I2c2 =0.81

[Pribislav]

It's not Baltic branch, but something very unique for some Montenegrin tribes and of unknown origin.

Yea, N-P189.2 came from Piva and Banjani tribes from Old Herzegovina/Western Montenegro.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piva_(tribe)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banjani

People in ex YU which carry this clade originated from Piva and Banjani https://www.yfull.com/tree/N-P189.2/

Interesting, Bosniaks from Cazinska Krajina have 5-6% N2-P189.2, and Bosniaks from others parts of Bosnia are lack of this haplogroup or have in very small %.

Deep origin of this clade is still unknown.

[Vožd]

Banja Luka is counted in this statistic.

Vrbas on the map, but culturaly and geographicaly it is Krajina also.

[Dick]

Pribislav, what do you think is the reasons Serbs lack R1a-M458; it's always a very small percentage of overall y dna in Serbs, yet in Sorbs its their main haplogroup (63% R1a, and 58% of it is R1a-M458). I think the Serb/Sorb connection is utter bullshit

My subclade could be Sorb

[Ford]

My subclade could be Sorb

Mine too.

[MagnusDark]

I don't know any R1a-m458 Serbs from here nor from the project, so I'm not too sure if there's any matches. There's one subclade of I2a1b on Yfull which has a match in east Germany, but concerning Sorbs I2a is only 2.4%, all of which is Din North, so din south/ph908 is 0% according to these stats I found. I've read before that m458 as a whole is more common in Croats than Serbs but I don't know how true that is.

R1a-M417 =8.13
CTS8816>YP315, L1280
CTS3402>YP951 или Y2613

R1a-M458 =56.91
R-M458 (xL260) =23.57
R-L260 =33.33
______
R1b-M269 =9.75
R-L48 =4.06
R-P312 =3.25
R-L23 =1.62
R-U106 =0.81
______
I1-M253 =9.75
I-M253 =6.50
I-L22 =2.43
I-M91 =0.81
______
E1b-V13 =4.87
______
I2-CTS10228 (Dinaric North) =2.43
______
G2a-P15 =2.43
______
J2a-M410 =1.62
______
I2-M223 =1.62
______
J2b-M241 =0.81
______
J1-M267 =0.81
______
I2c2 =0.81

I think those were older reports. I remember the same. More specifically Croats were being pegged as a M458 powerhouse. Then when more results from the area came in it was overthrown by Z280. Across the board M458 seems to account for between 4-5 percent of either total Serbian YDNA or 5 percent of R1a(not sure which one). Bulgarian R1a seems to be 60/40(M458/Z280). Most of their M458 is nearly all L1029 with some YP515(which is more East Slavic). Romania surprisingly has some of the highest R1a diversity after Poland/East Germany. They have some I2a1b diversity as well. Not sure for their breakdown. Maybe these maps give some idea. There was one I2a1b Sorb according to an old study but they never showed STRs.

M458: Not sure how old these are but M458 makes around 2.5-5 percent in Serbia, with 5-7.5 in Northern Serbia. M458 seems high in western Croats. Bulgaria and Romania have some more with Northern Romania having higher M458 further south. I find it interesting there is more M458 in Ukraine in the direction Goths took. Perhaps they assimilated some Proto-Slavs earlier or whilst in route.

Z280: Seems Croatia has higher M458 in central area. Maybe the maps are dated. But I know recent research stated Z280 was a little higher.

https://i.postimg.cc/4dppP2bH/m458.png

https://i.postimg.cc/sg9XnFtr/z280.png

[MagnusDark]

............

This is more up to date(albeit 2014) it has all clade specific breakdowns. Seems much better

https://i.postimg.cc/x1TZKpMR/r1a.jpg

[Vožd]

Common thing for all S. Slavic Dinaric talibans (except Montenegrins) is high I2a, and very low R1b. :)

What about Montenegrin DNA?
I know only one result with very few sample.

[Pribislav]

What about Montenegrin DNA?
I know only one result with very few sample.

In Montenegro I2a is about 30% and R1b about 10%. I2a is lower and R1b is higher than in other Dinaric regions.

[Vožd]

In Montenegro I2a is about 30% and R1b about 10%. I2a is lower and R1b is higher than in other Dinaric regions.

I know, but is there any other results?
Are we have detail resultst only for Old Herzegovina for example?

[Pribislav]

I know, but is there any other results?

I can't find currently statistic for whole Montenegro.

Here is statistic for Zeta dialect speaking part of Montenegro.

Orange zone on the map.

https://i.postimg.cc/zBcVykCY/Untitled-1.png

Sample 107
E-V13 - 28%
I2-Y3120 - 26.2% (I2-PH908 17.8%)
R1b-M269 - 19.6%
R1a-Z282 - 12.1%
J2a-M410 - 5.6%
J2b-M102 - 4.9%
G2-L30 - 1.9%
I2-M223 - 1.9%
Q-L245 - 0.9%

[Vožd]

I can'r find currently statistic for whole Montenegro.

Here is statistic for Zeta dialect speaking part of Montenegro.

Orange zone on the map.

https://i.postimg.cc/zBcVykCY/Untitled-1.png

Sample 107
E-V13 - 28%
I2-Y3120 - 26.2% (I2-PH908 17.8%)
R1b-M269 - 19.6%
R1a-Z282 - 12.1%
J2a-M410 - 5.6%
J2b-M102 - 4.9%
G2-L30 - 1.9%
I2-M223 - 1.9%
Q-L245 - 0.9%

Thats close to Montenegrin average.
West must be different.

[Pribislav]

Thats close to Montenegrin average.
West must be different.

Here is statistic for Western Montenegro.

Sample 107
I2a - 34.86% (PH908 24.77%)
I1 - 13.76%
E-V13 - 11%
R1a - 10.09% (M458 5.5%)
N-P189.2 - 10.09%
J2b-M205 - 8.25%
R1b-U152 - 4.59%
J2a-M92 - 2.75%
G2a-M406 - 1.8%
J2b-M241 - 1.8%
Q - 0.9%

[Jana]

To add in discussion , M458 is very rare among Croats and almost all samples I have seen in public databases belong to Z280.
But on islands of Krk and Cres (which have very high R1a frequency) M458 is dominant from data I have seen.

All R1a tested Croats I personally know are Z280.

[Jana]

I've pondered that before; White Serbs and White Croats came to the Balkans in the 7th century, whereas other Sclaveni tribes had already settled and taken control over much of the Balkans from the 6th century onwards. Perhaps the White Serbs just absorbed many other Sclaveni tribes already living in the balkans, who were as you said I2/R1a-zz80. Or as Pribislav said, the Y dna of modern Sorbs has changed drastically over the past 1000 years due to genetic drift and isolation; it's hard to tell without some medieval samples.

PH908 has highest diversity in Ukraine and many old unique branches in Bulgaria. It obviously came from east, and this route does not fit either White Serbs nor White Croats.
My guess is that it's Sclavenian, like most our our Slavic ancestry anyway.

Because West Slavic territory is practically desert of PH908.

[Pribislav]

PH908 has highest diversity in Ukraine and many old unique branches in Bulgaria. It obviously came from east, and this route does not fit either White Serbs nor White Croats.
My guess is that it's Sclavenian, like most our our Slavic ancestry anyway.

Because West Slavic territory is practically desert of PH908.

Look this https://www.forum.hr/showpost.php?p=75639835&postcount=4752

[Ayetooey]

PH908 has highest diversity in Ukraine and many old unique branches in Bulgaria. It obviously came from east, and this route does not fit either White Serbs nor White Croats.
My guess is that it's Sclavenian, like most our our Slavic ancestry anyway.

Because West Slavic territory is practically desert of PH908.

I agree, probably just Sclaveni from the 6th century, who were then assimilated by the likely R1a White Serbs/White Croats; my likely subclade (based off my closest y-67 match, I haven't tested SNP yet) has a SNP match in west Ukraine. I've done some research and this subclade seems to be found in Serbs and in Ukrainians only so far. https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-PH3310/

[Jana]

Look this https://www.forum.hr/showpost.php?p=75639835&postcount=4752

There is much more chance PH908 is White Croat than White Serb, because unlike Serbs Croats lived in western Ukraine and Carpathians.
But it is not with great chance.

Because Croats didn't arrive to Croatia from Ukraine, they first went to SE Poland and than to Czech Republic.
No data as of now support PH908 migration route from West Slavic region and it's concentration in Bohemia is miniscule anyway.

These are only dreams of nationalists. There are much more old branches of PH908 in Bulgaria than anywhere in central europe.

[Dick]

I know of an R1a-M458 from Kosovo. He’s actually a match with Rethel

[Pribislav]

There is much more chance PH908 is White Croat than White Serb, because unlike Serbs Croats lived in western Ukraine and Carpathians.
But it is not with great chance.

Because Croats didn't arrive to Croatia from Ukraine, they first went to SE Poland and than to Czech Republic.
No data as of now support PH908 migration route from West Slavic region and it's concentration in Bohemia is miniscule anyway.

These are only dreams of nationalists. There are much more old branches of PH908 in Bulgaria than anywhere in central europe.

Say that to Edvin. He is well imformed about presence of I2-PH908 among east and west Slavs.

Western Bulgaria was part of Serbia in the time of tsar Dušan and little later. I2-PH908 in Bulgaria, Albania and Greece is probably Serbian influence from the middle age.

[Ayetooey]

This blogpost is quite interesting, found it on ftdna I2A project.

https://southslavsdna.blogspot.com/2019/07/ph908-subclades-migration.html

Hopefully when I have more money I'll be able to upgrade to big Y to confirm my branch under ph908, simply too poor right now and it costs a lot so. :(

[Jana]

Say that to Edvin. He is well imformed about presence of I2-PH908 among east and west Slavs.

Western Bulgaria was part of Serbia in the time of tsar Dušan and little later. I2-PH908 in Bulgaria, Albania and Greece is probably Serbian influence from the middle age.

He is just a nationalist without too much data who is into wishful thinking. Not any different from Hrvat 22 and rest of the crowd....
Only person there who makes serious posts is Moro.

[Pribislav]

He is just a nationalist without too much data who is into wishful thinking. Not any different from Hrvat 22 and rest of the crowd....
Only person there who makes serious posts is Moro.

Serbian nationalist with muslim Bosniak name. Bigger Serb than Bosniensis! :lol:

[Ayetooey]

I can't find currently statistic for whole Montenegro.

Here is statistic for Zeta dialect speaking part of Montenegro.

Orange zone on the map.

https://i.postimg.cc/zBcVykCY/Untitled-1.png

Sample 107
E-V13 - 28%
I2-Y3120 - 26.2% (I2-PH908 17.8%)
R1b-M269 - 19.6%
R1a-Z282 - 12.1%
J2a-M410 - 5.6%
J2b-M102 - 4.9%
G2-L30 - 1.9%
I2-M223 - 1.9%
Q-L245 - 0.9%


On the zeta section of poreklo, I2 is 49/108 samples which would be 45%. I wonder why those stats are so different to the public results?

[Dick]

Mine too.

Imagine the irony if both of ours is from Sorbs. I1 and R1b :rotfl:

[Pribislav]

On the zeta section of poreklo, I2 is 49/108 samples which would be 45%. I wonder why those stats are so different to the public results?

That is wider region that Zeta plain. Zeta dialect speakers are Brđani who are mostly E-V13 (like Vasojevići, Kuči, Bjelopavlići). Half of Montenegro speak old shtokavian Zeta (or Zeta-South Sandžak) dialect, and half speak new shtokavian East Herzegovinian dialect.

[Pribislav]

To add in discussion , M458 is very rare among Croats and almost all samples I have seen in public databases belong to Z280.
But on islands of Krk and Cres (which have very high R1a frequency) M458 is dominant from data I have seen.

All R1a tested Croats I personally know are Z280.

Among Serbs Z280 is roughly 2/3 and M458 1/3.

There is solid number of famous people and historical figures among Serbs who were/are R1a-M458 such as: Nikola Tesla, Momčilo Đujić, Nikola Plećaš, Ratko Mladić, Bata Živojinović, Zdravko Šotra, Vuk Drašković, probably Dušan Basta, Branko Dragaš (economist)...

[MagnusDark]

I know of an R1a-M458 from Kosovo. He’s actually a match with Rethel

They’re part of some older pre L1029/YP515/L260 split.

[MagnusDark]

He is just a nationalist without too much data who is into wishful thinking. Not any different from Hrvat 22 and rest of the crowd....
Only person there who makes serious posts is Moro.

It’s not nationalism to say I2a1b is in west Slavs. I2a1b is found in all Slavic populations which would be expected. West Slavs obviously have less than the rest but the same is the case for M458 with it dropping lower the further east you go from Central Europe.

To assume haplogroups followed clear migratory paths is wrong. Also bottlenecks and founder effects can lead to some lineages being dominant in a few hundred years with others being unsuccessful and dropping to negligible numbers.

I2a1b/Z280/M458 were all already together as Proto Slavs earlier than the migration. They all took part in it. To assign one haplogroup to a tribal group and say the other wasn’t present is quite selective. It’s very neat and tidy to say I2a1b is Sclaveni, M458 Venedi, and Z280 Antes.

Simple truth is all 3 tribes had all these lineages in some proportion or other. Just can’t know exactly what that looked like. Modern data will only take one so far. Also, all 3 lineages have diversity around the Proto Slavic urheimat. M458 was simply more successful in Central Europe whereas due to mountain refuge I2a1b incubated and bottlnecked in the south.

While their percentages are lower East Slavs have more I2a1b men than the south. So likely found in Antes too.