Does this guy have Southern European ancestry?

[thracian_bro]

Eurogenes K13:
French + Southeast_English + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 4.182829
2 French + West_Scottish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 4.269935
3 Danish + French + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 4.295099
4 Danish + Spanish_Murcia + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 4.341558
5 Danish + French + Southeast_English + West_Scottish @ 4.377536
6 French + Irish + Southeast_English + West_Scottish @ 4.378178
7 French + Orcadian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 4.386808
8 Danish + Spanish_Cataluna + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 4.403831
9 Danish + French + Southwest_English + West_Scottish @ 4.416464
10 French + Orcadian + Southeast_English + West_Scottish @ 4.430144
11 Danish + Danish + Spanish_Murcia + West_Scottish @ 4.434427
12 French + Irish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 4.437046
13 French + Southwest_English + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 4.442358
14 French + Southeast_English + Southeast_English + West_Scottish @ 4.446258
15 French + North_Dutch + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 4.466858
16 Southeast_English + West_German + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 4.473222
17 Danish + Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 4.477446
18 Danish + Irish + Spanish_Murcia + West_Scottish @ 4.496449
19 Southeast_English + Southwest_English + West_German + West_Scottish @ 4.497217
20 Norwegian + Spanish_Murcia + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 4.503128

MDLP World22:
1 Gagauz_derived + Norwegian_V_derived + Norwegian_V_derived + Slovenian_derived @ 1.742671
2 Gagauz_derived + German-North_derived + Norwegian_V_derived + Norwegian_V_derived @ 1.784122
3 Gagauz_derived + German_V_derived + Norwegian_V_derived + Swedish_V_derived @ 1.803757
4 Gagauz_derived + German_derived + Norwegian_V_derived + Welsh_derived @ 1.854192
5 Czech_derived + Gagauz_derived + Norwegian_V_derived + Norwegian_V_derived @ 1.866250
6 Gagauz_derived + German_V_derived + Norwegian_V_derived + Swedish_derived @ 1.870899
7 Kosovar_derived + Latvian_V_derived + Norwegian_V_derived + Swedish_V_derived @ 1.878177
8 Austrian_derived + Gagauz_derived + Norwegian_V_derived + Swedish_V_derived @ 1.904248
9 Gagauz_derived + German-North_derived + Norwegian_V_derived + Welsh_derived @ 1.939451
10 Gagauz_derived + German_derived + Norwegian_V_derived + Norwegian_V_derived @ 1.970007
11 CEU_V_derived + Gagauz_derived + German-North_derived + Norwegian_V_derived @ 1.982634
12 Bulgarian_derived + Norwegian_V_derived + Norwegian_V_derived + Slovenian_derived @ 1.993369
13 Latvian_V_derived + Norwegian_V_derived + Norwegian_V_derived + Provancestralal_derived @ 2.000875
14 Austrian_derived + Gagauz_derived + Norwegian_V_derived + Swedish_derived @ 2.001573
15 CEU_V_derived + Gagauz_derived + Norwegian_V_derived + Swedish_derived @ 2.004586
16 Italian_North_derived + Latvian_V_derived + Norwegian_V_derived + Norwegian_V_derived @ 2.011348
17 Bulgarian_derived + Hungarian_derived + Norwegian_V_derived + Norwegian_V_derived @ 2.044101
18 Gagauz_derived + German_V_derived + Swedish_V_derived + Welsh_derived @ 2.050190
19 Bulgarian_derived + German_derived + Norwegian_V_derived + Welsh_derived @ 2.051811
20 Bosnian_derived + Norwegian_V_derived + Norwegian_V_derived + Serbian_derived @ 2.058444

Dodecad K12b:
1 Andalucia_1000Genomes + Argyll_1000Genomes + Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad + Mixed_Slav_Dodecad @ 1.851724
2 Andalucia_1000Genomes + Cornwall_1000Genomes + Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad + Mordovians_Yunusbayev @ 1.864960
3 Andalucia_1000Genomes + Irish_Dodecad + Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad + Mordovians_Yunusbayev @ 1.874391
4 Andalucia_1000Genomes + British_Dodecad + Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad + Mordovians_Yunusbayev @ 1.874960
5 Andalucia_1000Genomes + Argyll_1000Genomes + Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad + Mordovians_Yunusbayev @ 1.896128
6 Andalucia_1000Genomes + Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad + Mordovians_Yunusbayev + Orcadian_HGDP @ 1.940201
7 Andalucia_1000Genomes + Argyll_1000Genomes + Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad + Russian_Dodecad @ 1.940209
8 Andalucia_1000Genomes + Cornwall_1000Genomes + Dutch_Dodecad + Mordovians_Yunusbayev @ 1.952503
9 Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad + Orcadian_HGDP + Orcadian_HGDP + Romanians_Behar @ 1.992250
10 Irish_Dodecad + Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad + Orkney_1000Genomes + Romanians_Behar @ 1.999021
11 Andalucia_1000Genomes + Argyll_1000Genomes + Kent_1000Genomes + Mordovians_Yunusbayev @ 2.002030
12 Argyll_1000Genomes + Dutch_Dodecad + Irish_Dodecad + Romanians_Behar @ 2.003546
13 Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad + Orcadian_HGDP + Orkney_1000Genomes + Romanians_Behar @ 2.003935
14 Irish_Dodecad + Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad + Orcadian_HGDP + Romanians_Behar @ 2.004589
15 Argyll_1000Genomes + Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad + Orcadian_HGDP + Romanians_Behar @ 2.007556
16 Argyll_1000Genomes + Irish_Dodecad + Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad + Romanians_Behar @ 2.012792
17 Bulgarian_Dodecad + Dutch_Dodecad + Orcadian_HGDP + Orcadian_HGDP @ 2.014254
18 Andalucia_1000Genomes + Argyll_1000Genomes + Argyll_1000Genomes + Ukranians_Yunusbayev @ 2.015240
19 Argyll_1000Genomes + Bulgarian_Dodecad + CEU30_1000Genomes + Orkney_1000Genomes @ 2.016847
20 Argyll_1000Genomes + Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad + Orkney_1000Genomes + Romanians_Behar @ 2.018899

puntDNAL K15:
1 North_German + North_German + French + Bosnian @ 1.525838
2 North_German + North_German + South_German + Bulgarian @ 1.594422
3 Norwegian + North_German + French + Bosnian @ 1.594567
4 North_German + North_German + South_German + Macedonian @ 1.642772
5 Swedish + South_German + South_German + Bosnian @ 1.651753
6 Hungarian + Croatian + South_German + French @ 1.655662
7 Hungarian + Hungarian + South_German + French @ 1.665648
8 North_German + North_German + Utahn_White + Bulgarian @ 1.669618
9 Norwegian + Irish + French + Bosnian @ 1.670134
10 Norwegian + North_German + Hungarian + Italian @ 1.683169
11 North_German + English + South_German + Bosnian @ 1.686985
12 Norwegian + Norwegian + Norwegian + Greek_Thessaly @ 1.690789
13 Norwegian + Norwegian + North_German + Greek_Thessaly @ 1.691874
14 North_German + Orcadian + French + Bosnian @ 1.710587
15 Polish + South_German + French + Bosnian @ 1.712509
16 Norwegian + South_German + South_German + Bosnian @ 1.712567
17 North_German + North_German + South_German + Romanian @ 1.717073
18 North_German + Hungarian + French + Serbian @ 1.717139
19 Norwegian + Croatian + French + Serbian @ 1.720241
20 Norwegian + Irish + South_German + Macedonian @ 1.720353

puntDNAL K10:
1 Czech + German_North + Irish + Tuscan @ 0.585346
2 German_North + German_North + Utahn_white + Tuscan @ 0.618944
3 German_North + German_North + English_South + Tuscan @ 0.751142
4 German_North + German_North + Irish + Tuscan @ 0.756162
5 German_North + German_North + German_North + Italian_South @ 0.758409
6 Czech + German_North + Utahn_white + Tuscan @ 0.768617
7 Czech + German_North + German_North + Italian_South @ 0.803217
8 Czech + German_North + Utahn_white + Albanian @ 0.811134
9 Ukrainian + German_North + German_South + Tuscan @ 0.824037
10 Norwegian + German_North + German_North + Sicilian @ 0.842369
11 Czech + German_North + German_North + Tuscan @ 0.850184
12 German_North + Utahn_white + Hungarian + Italian_North @ 0.870036
13 Norwegian + German_North + Croatian + Tuscan @ 0.893508
14 German_North + German_North + French + Bulgarian @ 0.893535
15 German_North + German_North + English_South + Italian_South @ 0.896453
16 German_North + German_South + German_South + Bulgarian @ 0.912974
17 German_North + German_North + Irish + Italian_South @ 0.914381
18 German_North + Utahn_white + German_South + Bulgarian @ 0.936484
19 German_North + Irish + Hungarian + Italian_North @ 0.937209
20 Czech + German_North + German_South + Albanian @ 0.938886

[dududud]

Hard to tell.

Do you know his genealogy? Gedmatch k13 results?

[thracian_bro]

Hard to tell.

Do you know his genealogy? Gedmatch k13 results?

No idea about their ancestry, they're just very mixed. Also the first result is K13.

[J. Ketch]

Probably.

[dududud]

No idea about their ancestry, they're just very mixed. Also the first result is K13.

One can not guess the extremely mixed origins of a person from K13 or K15 results: simply because the more we are mixed, the more gedmatch calculators will have difficulty positioning you.

for example, the appearance of '' 'french' 'in the results of the oracle k13 of this person is not sufficient to identify a contribution' 'southern European' ', knowing that' 'french' 'here does not designate an ethnic group from the south of France (and gedmatch lack many samples of differents ethnic groups from France in their database).

Once again: having more than three different origins is enough to give fuzzy results, imprecise, with the oracles of Gedmatch.

Only the genealogy can make it possible to trace multiple origins ... If you count on the oracles of Gedmatch to help you... good luck.

Out of curiosity, what are the results of the person (non-oracle) of K13?

[thracian_bro]

One can not guess the extremely mixed origins of a person from K13 or K15 results: simply because the more we are mixed, the more gedmatch calculators will have difficulty positioning you.

for example, the appearance of '' 'french' 'in the results of the oracle k13 of this person is not sufficient to identify a contribution' 'southern European' ', knowing that' 'french' 'here does not designate an ethnic group from the south of France (and gedmatch lack many samples of differents ethnic groups from France in their database).

Once again: having more than three different origins is enough to give fuzzy results, imprecise, with the oracles of Gedmatch.

Only the genealogy can make it possible to trace multiple origins ... If you count on the oracles of Gedmatch to help you... good luck.

Out of curiosity, what are the results of the person (non-oracle) of K13?

1 North_Atlantic 51
2 Baltic 20.11
3 West_Med 12
4 East_Med 6.39
5 West_Asian 5.38
6 South_Asian 2
7 Northeast_African 1.61
8 Red_Sea 0.83
9 Siberian 0.68

I can post more results if necessary

[Kaspias]

No

[thracian_bro]

No

Really? I think he may have at least a quarter, I compare to northern european kits and those show more homogeneity with northwest europe than this one.

for example this guy from northern germany h649776.

i guess it also depends on your definition of southern europe too.

[Kaspias]

Really? I think he may have at least a quarter, I compare to northern european kits and those show more homogeneity with northwest europe than this one.

for example this guy from northern germany h649776.

i guess it also depends on your definition of southern europe too.

I don't think he has any Italian - Balkan - Greek ancestry regarding to these results, may be Iberian

[thracian_bro]

I don't think he has any Italian - Balkan - Greek ancestry regarding to these results, may be Iberian

Some calc results showed an eastern balkan shift, so I was confused. The oracles are really inconsistent here. Most others I see show pretty consistent results.

[Kaspias]

Some calc results showed an eastern balkan shift, so I was confused. The oracles are really inconsistent here. Most others I see show pretty consistent results.

Can you give the kit number so i can check matches?

[thracian_bro]

Can you give the kit number so i can check matches?

I'll DM

[Kaspias]

Honestly, i hadn't expected to see Balkan shift but indeed there is in some calculators. Person seems 3/4 British and 1/4 Eastern Balkanite in PuntDNAL, MDLP and Gedrosia, even 50-50 in some, but Eurogenes, Dodecad and Harappa gives 100% British-NW European.

I have checked your first 1000 match and couldn't find any Balkan match. Very interesting.

[thracian_bro]

Honestly, i hadn't expected to see Balkan shift but indeed there is in some calculators. Person seems 3/4 British and 1/4 Eastern Balkanite in PuntDNAL, MDLP and Gedrosia, even 50-50 in some, but Eurogenes, Dodecad and Harappa gives 100% British-NW European.

I have checked your first 1000 match and couldn't find any Balkan match. Very interesting.

Such a strange kit. I've been messing around with different kits from different regions to see how consistent their results are to this one, and I've haven't seen one like this before. Weird.

[Luke35]

Perhaps he does, but it seems to be very distant. I'll use my mom as an example why I think that..

Here is my mom's K13, she is mostly German with some British Isles, and North Italian pops up in the 4-way. Some of the German may be Tyrol, but there are no Italian names in the pretty big family tree my uncle has developed.

Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++
1 Danish + North_German + North_Italian + Norwegian @ 0.597499
2 Danish + South_Dutch + West_German + West_German @ 0.605395
3 North_Dutch + West_German + West_German + West_German @ 0.680342
4 North_Dutch + North_German + North_Italian + Norwegian @ 0.682294
5 French + North_German + North_German + West_German @ 0.694267
6 Danish + North_Dutch + North_Italian + Swedish @ 0.726361
7 Danish + Danish + North_Italian + Swedish @ 0.740436
8 North_Dutch + South_Dutch + West_German + West_German @ 0.770897
9 North_German + South_Dutch + South_Dutch + West_German @ 0.816153
10 French + North_German + North_German + South_Dutch @ 0.838880
11 Danish + West_German + West_German + West_German @ 0.843199
12 Danish + Danish + North_Italian + Norwegian @ 0.859201
13 Danish + French + North_German + West_German @ 0.866293
14 Danish + South_Dutch + South_Dutch + West_German @ 0.895035
15 Serbian + Southeast_English + Southeast_English + West_Scottish @ 0.901913
16 North_Dutch + North_Dutch + North_Italian + Swedish @ 0.917834
17 North_German + North_Italian + Norwegian + Norwegian @ 0.929330
18 Norwegian + West_German + West_German + West_German @ 0.932062
19 Norwegian + South_Dutch + West_German + West_German @ 0.969550
20 Danish + North_Dutch + North_Italian + Norwegian @ 0.970751

I have noticed that many Gedmatch calcs seem to be very robust, stretching a little bit the possibilities. My best fit on K13 is Orcadian and Serbian, stretches me a bit too thin.

Here is my mom's 2-way puntDNAL K10, there are some indicators for a southern or eastern influence, but it must be very distant, over 150 years ago:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 74.4% German_South + 25.6% Hungarian @ 0.88
2 77.1% German_South + 22.9% Irish @ 1.12
3 99% German_South + 1% Mayan @ 1.12
4 89.8% Utahn_white + 10.2% Italian_South @ 1.13
5 99.1% German_South + 0.9% Pima @ 1.13
6 99.1% German_South + 0.9% Karitiana @ 1.13
7 70% Scottish_West + 30% Tuscan @ 1.13
8 57.7% German_South + 42.3% Croatian @ 1.13
9 99.1% German_South + 0.9% Bolivian @ 1.13
10 85.3% Hungarian + 14.7% Basque_Spanish @ 1.14
11 89.2% Utahn_white + 10.8% Tuscan @ 1.15
12 99% German_South + 1% Bolivian @ 1.16
13 92.4% Utahn_white + 7.6% Sicilian @ 1.18
14 94% Utahn_white + 6% Sephardic_Jew @ 1.19
15 80.7% English_South + 19.3% Tuscan @ 1.2
16 97.6% German_South + 2.4% Lezgin @ 1.2
17 88.7% Utahn_white + 11.3% Albanian @ 1.2
18 61.4% Irish + 38.6% French @ 1.22
19 68.6% Scottish_West + 31.4% Albanian @ 1.23
20 92.4% Utahn_white + 7.6% Ashkenazi_Jew @ 1.23

[Pine]

When his South European does appear, it appears in presence of North European, like Danish. It may just be balancing it out.

[thracian_bro]

Perhaps he does, but it seems to be very distant. I'll use my mom as an example why I think that..

Here is my mom's K13, she is mostly German with some British Isles, and North Italian pops up in the 4-way. Some of the German may be Tyrol, but there are no Italian names in the pretty big family tree my uncle has developed.

Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++
1 Danish + North_German + North_Italian + Norwegian @ 0.597499
2 Danish + South_Dutch + West_German + West_German @ 0.605395
3 North_Dutch + West_German + West_German + West_German @ 0.680342
4 North_Dutch + North_German + North_Italian + Norwegian @ 0.682294
5 French + North_German + North_German + West_German @ 0.694267
6 Danish + North_Dutch + North_Italian + Swedish @ 0.726361
7 Danish + Danish + North_Italian + Swedish @ 0.740436
8 North_Dutch + South_Dutch + West_German + West_German @ 0.770897
9 North_German + South_Dutch + South_Dutch + West_German @ 0.816153
10 French + North_German + North_German + South_Dutch @ 0.838880
11 Danish + West_German + West_German + West_German @ 0.843199
12 Danish + Danish + North_Italian + Norwegian @ 0.859201
13 Danish + French + North_German + West_German @ 0.866293
14 Danish + South_Dutch + South_Dutch + West_German @ 0.895035
15 Serbian + Southeast_English + Southeast_English + West_Scottish @ 0.901913
16 North_Dutch + North_Dutch + North_Italian + Swedish @ 0.917834
17 North_German + North_Italian + Norwegian + Norwegian @ 0.929330
18 Norwegian + West_German + West_German + West_German @ 0.932062
19 Norwegian + South_Dutch + West_German + West_German @ 0.969550
20 Danish + North_Dutch + North_Italian + Norwegian @ 0.970751

I have noticed that many Gedmatch calcs seem to be very robust, stretching a little bit the possibilities. My best fit on K13 is Orcadian and Serbian, stretches me a bit too thin.

Here is my mom's 2-way puntDNAL K10, there are some indicators for a southern or eastern influence, but it must be very distant, over 150 years ago:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 74.4% German_South + 25.6% Hungarian @ 0.88
2 77.1% German_South + 22.9% Irish @ 1.12
3 99% German_South + 1% Mayan @ 1.12
4 89.8% Utahn_white + 10.2% Italian_South @ 1.13
5 99.1% German_South + 0.9% Pima @ 1.13
6 99.1% German_South + 0.9% Karitiana @ 1.13
7 70% Scottish_West + 30% Tuscan @ 1.13
8 57.7% German_South + 42.3% Croatian @ 1.13
9 99.1% German_South + 0.9% Bolivian @ 1.13
10 85.3% Hungarian + 14.7% Basque_Spanish @ 1.14
11 89.2% Utahn_white + 10.8% Tuscan @ 1.15
12 99% German_South + 1% Bolivian @ 1.16
13 92.4% Utahn_white + 7.6% Sicilian @ 1.18
14 94% Utahn_white + 6% Sephardic_Jew @ 1.19
15 80.7% English_South + 19.3% Tuscan @ 1.2
16 97.6% German_South + 2.4% Lezgin @ 1.2
17 88.7% Utahn_white + 11.3% Albanian @ 1.2
18 61.4% Irish + 38.6% French @ 1.22
19 68.6% Scottish_West + 31.4% Albanian @ 1.23
20 92.4% Utahn_white + 7.6% Ashkenazi_Jew @ 1.23

That could be very possible. Here's his puntdnal K10 two way for reference: 1 72.6% German_North + 27.4% Tuscan @ 0.74
2 74% German_North + 26% Italian_South @ 0.76
3 95.4% German_South + 4.6% Lezgin @ 0.83
4 84.4% Utahn_white + 15.6% Albanian @ 0.85
5 84.9% Utahn_white + 15.1% Greek @ 0.86
6 92.5% Utahn_white + 7.5% Cypriot @ 0.88
7 79.7% German_North + 20.3% Sicilian @ 0.88
8 89.5% Utahn_white + 10.5% Ashkenazi_Jew @ 0.94
9 95.2% German_South + 4.8% Chechen @ 0.97
10 91.9% Utahn_white + 8.1% Sephardic_Jew @ 0.99
11 95.1% German_South + 4.9% Kumyk @ 0.99
12 93.5% Utahn_white + 6.5% Lebanese @ 1.01
13 95.7% German_South + 4.3% North_Ossetian @ 1.02
14 90.6% German_North + 9.4% BedouinB @ 1.04
15 85.6% Utahn_white + 14.4% Tuscan @ 1.05
16 96.5% German_South + 3.5% Abkhasian @ 1.06
17 93.8% Utahn_white + 6.2% Palestinian @ 1.07
18 94.2% Utahn_white + 5.8% Iraqi_Jew @ 1.08
19 89.8% Utahn_white + 10.2% Sicilian @ 1.08
20 76.5% Utahn_white + 23.5% Bulgarian @ 1.09

Though if it was from 150 years ago, why would it appear in quantities over 6%? Also for someone who's mother is British and German, her results don't fall in line with other British/German kits I've compare to so she may be unorthodox and have ancestry she may not know about.

[thracian_bro]

When his South European does appear, it appears in presence of North European, like Danish. It may just be balancing it out.

Also very possible. Like when Serbia and Croatia appear in K15, they do so in the presence of France and North Germany. I believe he's mixed though so it's hard to tell if its calculator error or genuine mixing. If they're mostly NW European I expected more uniform NW European result like most others I see, but it wasn't the case.

[Pine]

Also very possible. Like when Serbia and Croatia appear in K15, they do so in the presence of France and North Germany. I believe he's mixed though so it's hard to tell if its calculator error or genuine mixing. If they're mostly NW European I expected more uniform NW European result like most others I see, but it wasn't the case.

Is he of one ethnic group? He may have just inherited the variables used in the model in an atypical way, where it's easier to model half of him as northern + southern ethnicity, instead of his middle range (I'm assuming British) ethnicity. Does he plot outside the 95% range of his ethnic group?

[nittionia]

My grandma isn't southern euro but she gets Balkan, Turkish, etc. in oracles. I think it's just balancing it out.

[thracian_bro]

Is he of one ethnic group? He may have just inherited the variables used in the model in an atypical way, where it's easier to model half of him as northern + southern ethnicity, instead of his middle range (I'm assuming British) ethnicity. Does he plot outside the 95% range of his ethnic group?

I would say so. He's mixed but is not sure of what. Surname is Schmidt. The closest middlegrounds he gets are Croatia, Hungary, South Germany, and Austria. He'll get British and Irish with close but more distance. Here's some true British Gedmatch kit #s and you'll notice the bulk of the oracle results are uniformly British Isles.
m882338
T050484
T330927
T025154
T607219
T789237

[thracian_bro]

My grandma isn't southern euro but she gets Balkan, Turkish, etc. in oracles. I think it's just balancing it out.

It could depend how much she gets of those. If its in the 15-20+% range I would consider her unorthodox for her ethnicity and possibly mixed with unknown.