Sorbs Ydna

[Dick]

According to a 2013 and 2015 studies, the most common Y-DNA haplogroup among the Sorbs who speak Upper Sorbian in Lusatia is R1a, which is carried by 65% of the Sorb males. It is followed in frequency by I1 (9.8%), R1b (9.8%), E1b1b (4.9%), I2 (4.1%), J (3.3%) and G (2.4%). Other haplogroups are less than 1%.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs

Anyone know of more recent studies?

[billErobreren]

65% R1a? Goddamn, that's high! Then again, Brandenburg and Mecklenburg did score high as a whole. Now, I'm curious.

Subbed

[Peterski]

Mecklenburg did score high as a whole.

Because not all of Slavic population of Mecklenburg was exterminated in the Wendish Crusades.

According to Helmold's "Slavic Chronicle", Slavs remained the owners of farms in many areas:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?275741-Origins-of-Germans-in-Mecklenburg-and-Brandenburg

=====

Distribution of ethnic groups around the year 850 AD:

https://i.imgur.com/xqnrWpA.png

Eastward migration of German peasants after 1100 AD:

https://i.imgur.com/9ohrFJT.png

Helmold, "Slavic Chronicle", Chapter 57 ("Foundation of the city of Lübeck"):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagria

https://i.imgur.com/PuAHchx.png

"(...) Count Adolf started building the castle of Segeberg and fortified it. Because the land was ravaged, he sent messengers to many regions, namely to Flanders, Holland, Utrecht, Westphalia and Frisia, with a message that if they needed more land they were free to come with their families, and they would be given a lot of good fertile land, full of fish and game, rich in vast pastures. He also told Holsatians and Sturmarians: 'Aren't you the ones who conquered Slavic land and obtained it through deaths of your brothers and relatives? So why should you settle as the last ones? Be first, start migrating to this desired land, settle it and benefit from its resources' (...). After that call, huge crowds of people from various nations started coming, together with their families and property, to the land of the Wagrians ruled by Adolf, who promised to give them land.

Holsatians were given safe areas to the west of Segeberg, near the Trave river, including the Zuentineveld [modern Bornhöved] fields as well as everything between the river Schwale up to Agrimesov [modern Grimmeisberg] and up to Lake Plön.

The region of Dargun [modern Warder and Ahrensbök/Stoob] was settled by Westphalians.

The region of Utyn [Eutin] was settled by Hollanders.

The region of Süsel [south-east of Eutin] was settled by Frisians.

The region of Plön still remained depopulated for the time being.

Regions of Starogard [Oldenburg] and Lutjenburg as well as other areas along the sea coast were left for farming to the Slavs, who now had to pay rent to Count Adolf (...)".

=====

Helmold, "Slavic Chronicle", Chapter 91 (about colonization of Mecklenburg):

https://i.imgur.com/RxlFEjN.png

"Heinrich, Count of Ratzeburg in the land of Polabian Slavs, brought masses of Westphalian settlers, in order for them to settle in the land of the Slavs. And he divided the land between them. And they built churches, and they started paying taxes from their farming income for the Glory of God. And God's deed started to spread throughout the land of the Slavs under Heinrich's reign, and was completed during the reign of his son, Bernard. On the other hand, Holsatians who settled in Wagria after expulsion of local Slavs, were very zealous when it comes to building new churches, and were very hospitable, but they avoided paying taxes. (...)"

=====

Helmold, "Slavic Chronicle", Chapter 88 ("About Albrecht the Bear"):

https://i.imgur.com/VNffGNj.png

"At that time Slavic lands were ruled by Margrave Albrecht, also known as the Bear, who - thanks to God's grace - managed to conquer large Slavic territories. He captured entire land of Stodoranians, Brezans and many other tribes living at the Elbe and Havel rivers. And he was crushing those of them who were trying to rebel against his rule. When decimated Slavs started to slowly disappear, Albrecht sent messangers to Utrecht and to lands along the Rhine river and also to those who lived along the ocean's coast and suffered a lot from violent storms of the sea - namely Hollanders, Zealanders and Flemish people - and he brought many settlers from among them, and he settled them within Slavic towns and villages. Thanks to that colonization by foreigners, the Bishopric of Brandenburg and Havelberg increased its strength, because the number of churches and tax income increased. But also southern banks of the Elbe river were at that time colonized by Dutch newcomers, they settled lands around Salzwedel, and Balsemerland [around Stendal and Halberstadt], and Marscinerland [between Arneburg and Werben], with many towns and villages, extending as far as the Bohemian Forest. (...)"

[billErobreren]

I was already pretty aware of the Pomeranians of Mecklenburg and Rugen. Sorbs don't really seem to speak a dialect that stems from theirs, like Kashubian. I'm more curious about them. Also, weren't Polabians some kind of Pommeranian offshoot as well? Whatever happened to their language? Is it still around?

[Peterski]

I was already pretty aware of the Pomeranians of Mecklenburg and Rugen. Sorbs don't really seem to speak a dialect that stems from theirs, like Kashubian. I'm more curious about them. Also, weren't Polabians some kind of Pommeranian offshoot as well? Whatever happened to their language? Is it still around?

Yeah, Sorbian is kind of intermediate between Polish and Czecho-Slovak, that's why it is classified as its own separate sub-group of West Slavic.

Polish, Pomeranian and Polabian are all classified as part of the so called Lechitic (basically North-West Slavic) sub-group of West Slavic.

These were the last speakers of Polabian: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drevani in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%BCchow-Dannenberg

[Lucas]

Because not all of Slavic population of Mecklenburg was exterminated in the Wendish Crusades.

According to Helmold's "Slavic Chronicle", Slavs remained the owners of farms in many areas:




Yes, but Mecklemburg and Pomerania were heavily depopulated during 30-years War. And most likely resettled from Lower Saxony and Schleswig which wasn't affected by war.
So number of Slavic descendants in Mecklemburg was much lower after 1650.

https://i.imgur.com/UOxNvoc.png

[MiloshN]

E1b1b more from I2 :eek:

[Ayetooey]

E1b1b more from I2 :eek:

Yup, and ph908 subclade of I2 which is most common in I2 Serbs is 0% in Sorbs.

[Lucas]

Yes, but Mecklemburg and Pomerania were heavily depopulated during 30-years War. And most likely resettled from Lower Saxony and Schleswig which wasn't affected by war.
So number of Slavic descendants in Mecklemburg was much lower after 1650.

https://i.imgur.com/UOxNvoc.png

Also north Sorbian territory was unaffected by war losses, whic could explain why they survived.

[Peterski]

So number of Slavic descendants in Mecklemburg was much lower after 1650.

As long as we assume that new settlers came from other Non-Slavic regions to replace those lost during the war and plague.

What about Lower Silesia? Check how west of the Oder = huge depopulation, east of the Oder = much smaller depopulation.

[Ülev]

^^ Sternau = Steinau - Ścinawa?

[Lucas]

As long as we assume that new settlers came from other Non-Slavic regions to replace those lost during the war and plague.

What about Lower Silesia? Check how west of the Oder = huge depopulation, east of the Oder = much smaller depopulation.

I don't want to discuss Silesia now it is different story certainly.

But we can safely conclude that considering northern Lower Saxon dialect is spoken in Mecklemburg now, so after loose of more than 66% population, new settlers who came in spoke that dialect.
Not to mention closest geographical proximity between both regions.

From Czekanowski, so not German biased.

https://i.imgur.com/GIAdjJ6.png

[Peterski]

new settlers who came in spoke that dialect

Probably the majority of them did.

But it is also possible, that not many new settlers came (and population level recovered "from within" by natural growth).

[Lucas]

Probably the majority of them did.

But it is also possible, that not many new settlers came (and population level recovered "from within" by natural growth).

Look at the map above. We can argue about Pommern (and eastern Vor-Pommern) but Mecklemburg is northern Niedersachsen continuum. Of course some remnants of previous inhabitnts survived I don't deny it (acccording to map max 1/3).

[Peterski]

Look at the map above. We can argue about Pommern (and Vor-Pommern) but Mecklemburg is northern Niedersachsen continuum. Of course some remnants of previous inhabitnts survived I don't deny it (acccording to map max 1/3).

Rügen is a case of a language shift:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?212748-Germans-from-R%FCgen-are-genetically-Slavic

BTW, Rostock has 32,4% of R1a but Greifswald (located to the east of Rostock) has only 19,2% of R1a.

The region of Rostock (Slavic: Roztoka) has more toponyms of Slavic origin than the region of Greifswald.

Y-DNA figures for Rostock and Greifswald cited above are from Kayser 2005; Immel 2005; Roding 2007.

=====

Proportions of Slavic / Germanic placenames (toponyms) in several areas of North-East Germany:

area around Greifswald - 11,88% / 88,12%
area around Grimmen - 36,58% / 63,42%
area around Franzburg - 32,51% / 67,49%
the island of Rügen - 79,21% / 20,79%

Source: http://koszalin7.pl/st/pom/pomorze_104.html

[Ülev]

r1a, r1a
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?295993-R1a-RATHA-YATRA-IN-KIEV-UKRAINE

[Lucas]

Rügen is a case of a language shift:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?212748-Germans-from-R%FCgen-are-genetically-Slavic

BTW, Rostock has 32,4% of R1a but Greifswald (located to the east of Rostock) has only 19,2% of R1a.

The region of Rostock (Slavic: Roztoka) has more toponyms of Slavic origin than the region of Greifswald.

Y-DNA figures for Rostock and Greifswald cited above are from Kayser 2005; Immel 2005; Roding 2007.

=====

Proportions of Slavic / Germanic placenames (toponyms) in several areas of North-East Germany:



It could mean that before 1618 Mecklemburgians were of R1a majority as Sorbs today. Which could be possible for me.


area around Greifswald - 11,88% / 88,12%
area around Grimmen - 36,58% / 63,42%
area around Franzburg - 32,51% / 67,49%
the island of Rügen - 79,21% / 20,79%

Toponyms could survive even heavy influx on Saxon settlers. Some old inhabitants survived and church and state documents used those names so it was no need to change them.

[Peterski]

From that article: "Trzeba wyraźnie podkreślić, że na intensywność procesów germanizacyjnych miały wpływ przede wszystkim: gotowość władców poszczególnych terytoriów do przyjmowania innowacji, dynamika implementacji systemu lennego, siła środowisk miejskich, poziom absorpcji wzorców organizacyjnych w sferze gospodarki wiejskiej, ilość obcych przybyszów osiadających na obszarze określonych ziem słowiańskich. W przypadku terytoriów księstwa rańskiego, a samej Rany szczególnie, żaden z wymienionych elementów nie przybrał takich rozmiarów jak na terytoriach władztw sąsiednich. Pewnym wskaźnikiem dla zobrazowania oddziaływań czynników obcych jest stosunek procentowy nazewnictwa germańskiego do nazewnictwa słowiańskiego w dziedzinach rańskich i sąsiednich (34). O ile w rejonie Greifswaldu relacje pomiędzy rodzimymi a niemieckimi nazwami miejscowości kształtują się w stosunku 11,88% do 88,12%, w rejonie Grimmen 36,58% do 63,42%, w okolicach Franzburga 32,51 do 67,49%, o tyle na Ranie proporcje te wynoszą 79,21 do 20,79%. Czy rzeczywiście jednak tego rodzaju zestawienia można uznać za oddające średniowieczny stan faktyczny w sferze stosunków etnicznych? Spróbujmy przyjrzeć się Ranie nieco dokładniej. (...)"

^^^
Greifswald has 19,2% of R1a, which is not much higher than the percent of Slavic toponyms.

I suppose that areas of Grimmen and Franzburg will have over 20% (and up to 30%) of R1a.

Also stronger Slavic autosomal admixture should be in places with higher % of Slavic toponyms.

[Ülev]

^^ but Greifswald has polish language version
https://www.greifswald.de/pl/

other towns in MEcklenburg-Vorpommern not necessarily

[Peterski]

It could mean that before 1618 Mecklemburgians were of R1a majority as Sorbs today.

I don't think so, crusaders during the Wendish Crusades exterminated and expelled many Slavs.

Sorbs accepted German rule with much less resistance and there were no massacres/expulsions.

I think this area can have a lot of R1a, despite being far to the west (also no crusader brutality):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drevani

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%BCchow-Dannenberg

[Peterski]

Here are some areas with high R1a %, based mainly on samples from FTDNA projects:

Brandenburg an der Havel (FTDNA projects) ----- 50% R1a (n=14)
Chemnitz (FTDNA projects) ------------------------ 40% R1a (n=10)
Rostock (genetic studies) -------------------------- 32% R1a (n=96)

For comparison, average for some regions:

Mecklenburg-Vorpommern (FTDNA projects) ----- 26% R1a (n=31)
Sachsen-Anhalt (FTDNA projects) ----------------- 18% R1a (n=34)

=====

Map with R1a frequencies (combined data from publications and from FTDNA projects):

https://i.imgur.com/eB5idQk.png

[Lucas]

Here are some areas with high R1a %, based mainly on samples from FTDNA projects:

Brandenburg an der Havel (FTDNA projects) ----- 50% R1a (n=14)
Chemnitz (FTDNA projects) ------------------------ 40% R1a (n=10)
Rostock (genetic studies) -------------------------- 32% R1a (n=96)

For comparison, average for some regions:

Mecklenburg-Vorpommern (FTDNA projects) ----- 26% R1a (n=31)
Sachsen-Anhalt (FTDNA projects) ----------------- 18% R1a (n=34)

=====

Map with R1a frequencies (combined data from publications and from FTDNA projects):

https://i.imgur.com/eB5idQk.png

But if we assume that let's say in `1700 about 50% of Mecklemburgians were of recent Saxon extraction (because of 50-65% or more, demographic losses) , we can assume that before 1618 R1a frequency could be about 50-60% (looking at modern Rostock ad central Mecklemburg values).

Such modern frequencies could be attained considering 30years war demographic declain. And knowing German will to colonize every land east of them it would be impoosible to think they didn't colonize Mecklemburg again. And let it to grow up again just using their survivor population. And we have common northern Lower Saxon dialect proof which I presented earlier.

[Ülev]

what if Rethel tested all his German family and therefore we have so high R1a?

[Ayetooey]

what if Rethel tested all his German family and therefore we have o high R1a?

Even Rethels female family are R1a.

[Lucas]

Even Rethels female family are R1a.

Even dogs and cats.

[Peterski]

But if we assume that let's say in `1700 about 50% of Mecklemburgians were of recent Saxon extraction (because of 50-65% or more, demographic losses) , we can assume that before 1618 R1a frequency could be about 50-60% (looking at modern Rostock ad central Mecklemburg values).

Such modern frequencies could be attained considering 30years war demographic declain. And knowing German will to colonize every land east of them it would be impoosible to think they didn't colonize Mecklemburg again. And let it to grow up again just using their survivor population. And we have common northern Lower Saxon dialect proof which I presented earlier.

Here are two interesting maps from Bazyli's articles (where Slavic languages were spoken until the 1500s-1600s):

Mecklenburg: https://i.imgur.com/e4hfm2Q.png

https://i.imgur.com/e4hfm2Q.png

^^^
That includes Wendland: http://www.rundlingsverein.de/Fotos/Karte-Wendland.jpg

http://www.rundlingsverein.de/Fotos/Karte-Wendland.jpg

Rugen: https://i.imgur.com/ot2JYMU.png

https://i.imgur.com/hTVPNwe.png

Source: http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=68470&st=0

[MagnusDark]

But if we assume that let's say in `1700 about 50% of Mecklemburgians were of recent Saxon extraction (because of 50-65% or more, demographic losses) , we can assume that before 1618 R1a frequency could be about 50-60% (looking at modern Rostock ad central Mecklemburg values).

Such modern frequencies could be attained considering 30years war demographic declain. And knowing German will to colonize every land east of them it would be impoosible to think they didn't colonize Mecklemburg again. And let it to grow up again just using their survivor population. And we have common northern Lower Saxon dialect proof which I presented earlier.

Or the lower Saxons brought some more R1a with them that was assimilated much earlier than these events when the Wends first arrived, assuming this is the only scenario for their acquisition of R1a. I highly doubt all their R1a is recent as Litvinski would have people believe. The Wends were going through numerous assimilation tactics from their very arrival well over a millennia ago. Not impossible to think some Germanized R1a folk came with those re-settlements. Also, if it was a regrowth within only that time from the leftovers, there should be closer TMRCA within German/Sorb R1a. But there isn't. Unless of course these values are of only the Slavic speaking communities there and not East Germans themselves.

Germans have alot of basal clades under M458, which likely means they were assimilated early on when the Wends arrived and not in the last 4-500 years which should show closer matches with Poles/Sorbs if that were the case. I have a few L1029 matches for instance with ancestry from West, Central and South Germany.

[Norb]

But if we assume that let's say in `1700 about 50% of Mecklemburgians were of recent Saxon extraction (because of 50-65% or more, demographic losses) , we can assume that before 1618 R1a frequency could be about 50-60% (looking at modern Rostock ad central Mecklemburg values).

Such modern frequencies could be attained considering 30years war demographic declain. And knowing German will to colonize every land east of them it would be impoosible to think they didn't colonize Mecklemburg again. And let it to grow up again just using their survivor population. And we have common northern Lower Saxon dialect proof which I presented earlier.

don't forget the 10 million German males that were killed from 1939 to 1946

[Lucas]

Or the lower Saxons brought some more R1a with them that was assimilated much earlier than these events when the Wends first arrived, assuming this is the only scenario for their acquisition of R1a. I highly doubt all their R1a is recent as Litvinski would have people believe. The Wends were going through numerous assimilation tactics from their very arrival well over a millennia ago. Not impossible to think some Germanized R1a folk came with those re-settlements. Also, if it was a regrowth within only that time from the leftovers, there should be closer TMRCA within German/Sorb R1a. But there isn't. Unless of course these values are of only the Slavic speaking communities there and not East Germans themselves.

Germans have alot of basal clades under M458, which likely means they were assimilated early on when the Wends arrived and not in the last 4-500 years which should show closer matches with Poles/Sorbs if that were the case. I have a few L1029 matches for instance with ancestry from West, Central and South Germany.

Here is Y-DNa composition in Lower Saxony (made by Robert Gabel from German DNA Project). There are traces of Slavic Y-DNA...

https://i.imgur.com/InVQL4D.jpg

[MagnusDark]

No evidence that it is Slavic Y-DNA based on those graphs.

It could be Germanic R1a-Z284 and R1a-CTS4385.

Such low frequency of R1a is typical for Western Europe:

England - 4,5% R1a
Flanders - 4,3% R1a
Brabant - 4,0% R1a
Wallonia - 4,0% R1a
Ireland - 2,5% R1a
Wales - 1,0% R1a

Did you bother reading the graph? it clearly shows what clades they have, M458/Z280/M198.

Also doesn't matter if it was originally Proto-Slavic or not. My point was those who repopulated NE Germany could have been earlier assimilated Wends that migrated there as Germans from Saxony.

I can't comment on Z280 or L260 in East Germans, but for L1029 they have alot of basal variety of L1029 with distant TMRCA between 1000 or more years. Which doesn't support your position that its recent 400-500 years.

[Peterski]

Did you bother reading the graph? it clearly shows what clades they have, M458/Z280/M198.

Yes I noticed, that's why I deleted that post.

Slavs settled in Wendland in Lower Saxony:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lüchow-Dannenberg

[MagnusDark]

Here is Y-DNa composition in Lower Saxony (made by Robert Gabel from German DNA Project). There are traces of Slavic Y-DNA...

https://i.imgur.com/InVQL4D.jpg

Which could have been higher back then before repopulating from Saxony. My point was that if it was a regrowth from left over only in the last 400-500 years from the Masacre, it should be evident in the TMRCA. The problem is alot of East Germans have basal M458/Z280 assimilated much earlier from the Wends. They dont have recent TMRCA with the Slavs in the area, suggesting if they were assimilated it was much earlier than the aforementioned event. Assumingly from Wends rather than recently from Sorbs or Poles.

[MagnusDark]

Yes I noticed, that's why I deleted that post.

Slavs settled in Wendland in Lower Saxony:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lüchow-Dannenberg

My point is if it was a regrowth of R1a only in the last 400-500 years since that masacre, it should be evident yet its not. German M458/Z280 has alot of basal variety suggesting they were assimilated from Wends in the early middle ages as opposed to more recently. If it was recent they should have Sorb/Poles more recently than 800-2000 years. Unless of course you are specifically only referring to those Sorbs/Poles that still speak Slavic in East Germany, and not all of East Germany itself.

[Peterski]

I can't comment on Z280 or L260 in East Germans, but for L1029 they have alot of basal variety of L1029 with distant TMRCA between 1000 or more years. Which doesn't support your position that its recent 400-500 years.

What "my position"? I never claimed it is so recent.

Slavs settled in Germany 1500 years ago not 400-500.

The peak of Slavic westward expansion was ca. 800-850 AD which is more than one thousand years ago.


My point is if it was a regrowth of R1a only in the last 400-500 years since that masacre, it should be evident yet its not. German M458/Z280 has alot of basal variety suggesting they were assimilated from Wends in the early middle ages as opposed to more recently.

But there was no "regrowth of R1a in the last 400-500 years" - what made you think so? Surely I did not claim that, it was either Lukasz's or your own claim. The theory that Slavic descendants died out in Mecklenburg in 1618-1648 and were replaced by new settlers from further west is simply wrong.


If it was recent they should have Sorb/Poles more recently than 800-2000 years. Unless of course you are specifically only referring to those Sorbs/Poles that still speak Slavic in East Germany, and not all of East Germany itself.

Many Germans have Sorbian and Polish ancestors more recently than 800 years ago but of course not Germans from Mecklenburg.

[MagnusDark]

What "my position"? I never claimed it is so recent.

Slavs settled in Germany 1500 years ago not 400-500.

The peak of Slavic westward expansion was ca. 800-850 AD which is more than one thousand years ago.



But there was no "regrowth of R1a in the last 400-500 years" - what made you think so? Surely I did not claim that, it was either Lukasz's or your own claim. The theory that Slavic descendants died out in Mecklenburg in 1618-1648 and were replaced by new settlers from further west is simply wrong.



Many Germans have Sorbian and Polish ancestors more recently than 800 years ago but of course not Germans from Mecklenburg.

It was your claim in a manner of speaking. Lukasz mentioned the massacre and re-settlement from lower Saxony to the region. You stated if this re-settlement occurred, perhaps the high R1a in the region could be a re-growth of R1a from its survivors. Which is why I said were that the case they would need matches 400-500 years or so with Slavs, given the regrowth would be from the remnants and not earlier. You said this on page 2:


Probably the majority of them did.

But it is also possible, that not many new settlers came (and population level recovered "from within" by natural growth).


You also said: "The theory that Slavic descendants died out in Mecklenburg in 1618-1648 and were replaced by new settlers from further west is simply wrong."

According to Lukasz this is well known/documented that Germans of Lower Saxony re-settled the area. Of course not sure about all of them dying out. That is why I said if this occurred they likely brought older assimilated R1a clades and that for them to regrow from those still surviving in the last 400 years as you suggested it should be evident in closer matches with Slavs rather than to the early middle ages. Which is why I think Lukasz posted the graph showing the levels of R1a in Lower Saxony. Also you would be surprised how many descendants can sprout from few survivors in 400 or so years. If the scenario you suggested could happen.

Hope that clears up any confusion with my responses

[Peterski]

Well I have two GEDmatch kits of Germans with ancestry back to 1700 fully from the area around Neustadt in Mecklenburg (where Slavic-speaking population lived until the 1500s according to the map below). These Germans don't know their genealogy before 1700, so it is possible that some of their ancestors migrated to Mecklenburg from Lower Saxony or Schleswig-Holstein after 1618:

https://i.imgur.com/oDULSO2.png

^^^ German Neustadt1 in Eurogenes K15, top 5 results in Mixed Mode:

1 56.4% West_Norwegian + 43.6% Russian_Smolensk @2.04

2 61.9% Norwegian + 38.1% Russian_Smolensk @ 2.16

3 50.1% West_Norwegian + 49.9% Polish @2.22

4 50.9% South_Polish + 49.1% West_Norwegian @2.25

5 55.7% Norwegian + 44.3% Polish @2.26

=====

As you can see clearly there is a lot of Slavic ancestry.

[MagnusDark]

Well I have two GEDmatch kits of Germans with ancestry back to 1700 fully from the area around Neustadt in Mecklenburg (where Slavic-speaking population lived until the 1500s according to the map below). These Germans don't know their genealogy before 1700, so it is possible that some of their ancestors migrated to Mecklenburg from Lower Saxony or Schleswig-Holstein after 1618:

https://i.imgur.com/oDULSO2.png

^^^ German Neustadt1 in Eurogenes K15, top 5 results in Mixed Mode:

1 56.4% West_Norwegian + 43.6% Russian_Smolensk @2.04

2 61.9% Norwegian + 38.1% Russian_Smolensk @ 2.16

3 50.1% West_Norwegian + 49.9% Polish @2.22

4 50.9% South_Polish + 49.1% West_Norwegian @2.25

5 55.7% Norwegian + 44.3% Polish @2.26

=====

As you can see clearly there is a lot of Slavic ancestry.

Yes, but if I married a Polish woman my son would come out 50 percent slavic like and thats just one generation. You're speaking a few hundred years. The settler could have acquired it from the assimilated Poles in the region, and transferred the slavic like ancestry through the generations of staying local. Did you expect Lower Saxon Germans to not acquire any East European admixture in the region over 300 years?

Don't forget Germans also have east European like admixture(which surprisingly one study used Lithuanian as a marker for) though less than East Germans.

[Peterski]

(...)

Nope. Schleswig and Lower Saxony Germans are North-West Europeans genetically.

This North German is even 1/8 recent Slavic/Polish, but still very NW im Eurogenes K15:

Family tree (GEDCOM):

http://i.imgur.com/xKwDQsV.png

And K15 Mixed Mode:

1 61.8% West_Norwegian + 38.2% Swedish @1.71
2 94.3% West_Norwegian + 5.7% Belorussian @1.74
3 94.7% West_Norwegian + 5.3% Lithuanian @1.74
4 94.4% West_Norwegian + 5.6% Estonian_Polish @1.74
5 94.3% West_Norwegian + 5.7% Russian_Smolensk @1.76
6 94.5% West_Norwegian + 5.5% Ukrainian_Belgorod @1.77
7 93.5% West_Norwegian + 6.5% Polish @1.77
8 94.5% West_Norwegian + 5.5% Southwest_Russian @1.79
9 93.5% West_Norwegian + 6.5% Estonian @1.8
10 93.5% West_Norwegian + 6.5% South_Polish @1.81

[MagnusDark]

Nope. Schleswig and Lower Saxony Germans are North-West Europeans genetically.

This North German is even 1/8 recent Slavic/Polish, but still very NW im Eurogenes K15:

Family tree (GEDCOM):

http://i.imgur.com/xKwDQsV.png

And K15 Mixed Mode:

1 61.8%West_Norwegian + 38.2% Swedish @1.71
2 94.3% West_Norwegian + 5.7% Belorussian @1.74
3 94.7% West_Norwegian + 5.3% Lithuanian @1.74
4 94.4%West_Norwegian + 5.6% Estonian_Polish @1.74
5 94.3% West_Norwegian + 5.7% Russian_Smolensk @1.76
6 94.5% West_Norwegian + 5.5% Ukrainian_Belgorod @1.77
7 93.5% West_Norwegian + 6.5% Polish @1.77
8 94.5% West_Norwegian + 5.5% Southwest_Russian @1.79
9 93.5% West_Norwegian + 6.5% Estonian @1.8
10 93.5%West_Norwegian + 6.5% South_Polish @1.81

That is my entire point. 300 years of mixing could increase Slavic like ancestry in Germans that settled a region with Slavs. Having slavic doesnt mean they didn't migrate from there. Kind of like North-East Greeks having higher slavic like ancestry than say Southern Greeks. Did you expect the ancestry of settlers not to change in 300 years from mixing?

[Peterski]

So is your point that before 1618 the region could be even more Slavic?

Of course. But Lukasz claims that Mecklenburg is like Lower Saxons autosomally.

And that's not true, the Neustadt German is close to East Germans and very different than the Hamburg German (who actually has 1/8 of recent Ermland-Masurian admixture and yet is still much more Germanic).

[MagnusDark]

So is your point that before 1618 the region could be even more Slavic?

Of course. But Lukasz claims that Mecklenburg is like Lower Saxons autosomally.

And that's not true, the Neustadt German is close to East Germans and very different than the Hamburg German (who actually has 1/8 of Polish-Masurian admixture and yet is still much more Germanic).

Not necessarily. My point was if the re-settlement didn't occur and all the R1a is a local re-growth as you mention from its survivors then it should show closer MRCA in YDNA. However, if Lukasz is right about the re-settlement after the massacre, then one would expect these assimilated R1a to be very distant from those 400 years ago.

I was merely trying to look at it from both angles. That is one to one German you're comparing. You can't possibly take autosomal of one individual and claim the whole area is an exact reflection of them. That's ludicrous. Should be similar sure but not exact.

Albanians are far more homogeneous and there are some very different plotting that come from my area with all grandparents coming from the same. Using your reasoning we should have the same autosomal break down, yet thats not always the case.

You're also forgetting autosomal recombination occurs at random, and one can inherit more from one ancestry than another. Making them more like mother or father etc.

There is a Lithuanian user on Eupedia whose ancestor migrated from Germany probably during Prussia/Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, with the surname Gotta, and that surname is most common in Hesse. He has little to no German admixture though because that can change very quickly in 300 years.

[Peterski]

I told you that the Neustadt kit has confirmed genealogy - all ancestors from villages around Neustadt in Mecklenburg back to year 1700. There is no any recent Polish ancestor there. And yet this Neustadt kit can be modeled as 1/2 Hamburg German + 1/2 Polish, despite the fact that there is only few kilometers between these places (Hamburg and Neustadt).

PS:

I agree that other people from the same region can have different results, but as you said they should be generally quite similar to each other (unless they have ancestors who migrated from other regions).


Not necessarily. My point was if the re-settlement didn't occur and all the R1a is a local re-growth as you mention from its survivors then it should show closer MRCA in YDNA.

Actually, it should not.

If the population of 10,000 is reduced to 5,000 there is not going to be a new MRCA.

MRCA always takes place when there is only one man alive (or several men alive, but only one of them has children) with a given subclade.

If a subclade numbered one carrier in 500 AD, growing to 10,000 carriers in 1618 and then declining to 5,000 carriers in 1648 - then the TMRCA for this subclade is still 500 AD, not 1648.


You're also forgetting autosomal recombination occurs at random, and one can inherit more from one ancestry than another. Making them more like mother or father etc.

That is true for rare individual cases, but that is not how it works statistically on population level. There are 100,000,000 Mestizos in Mexico and they are not going to magically turn 100% European or 100% Amerindian again. They will keep reproducing their 50% Euro + 50% Amerindian genetics in every new generation.

Sure one Mestizo can be 55% Euro + 45% Native and his brother can be 45% Euro + 55% Native, due to random inheritance, but as a population they will preserve the 50/50 proportion if they keep marrying each other.

Just like Slavic admixture of East Germans is not going to disappear.

[MoroLP]

Based on a 2013 paper Y-DNA haplogroup I2 among 123 sampled Upper Sorbs is 4% of which 2.34% is I-CTS10228 and was already said I-PH908 was 0%

We also have a known frequency of 303 samples on 17-loci from Leipzig. Reportedly the haplogroup I2 was 3.97% and all of it was I-CTS10228 and I-PH908 was 0.33%

Besides these know results since 2008 are filed other more numerous population samples from Saxony at YHRD on Minimal haplotype but still informative for haplogroup and (sub)clade frequency information: 1114 from Leipzig, 743 from Chemnitz, 234 from Halle (Salle), and 88 from Dresden. Seemingly they weren't checked before. Most probably because it is not practical - you need to manually check individual haplotypes to get results and there exist many haplotype variations on a clade and even more on a haplogroup level. The frequency of I-L621 > I-CTS10228 subclades is most significant to the Slavic movement and origin so checked these haplotypes. Used the haplotypes found at YFull and I2a FTDNA project. Some are more some less common. Due to mutations on some markers which are shared by the Dinaric cluster with other clusters am not entirely sure a minority of the haplotypes was correctly designated in the FTDNA project but still checked them. So take that in mind, maybe the frequency will be a bit higher but so the worse if the frequency is still low.

First checked 82 different haplotypes including all from the Germany and Czech Republic within the project. This is the result (https://ibb.co/M6HNP9N) (click for image):

Leipzig has 24 matches out of 1114 = 2.15%
Chemnitz has 13 out of 743 = 1.75%
Halle has 3 out of 234 = 1.28%
Dresden has 2 out of 88 = 2.27%

40 samples out of 2091 (Leipzig, Chemnitz, Halle) is 1.91%
42 samples out of 2179 (Leipzig, Chemnitz, Halle, Dresden) is 1.93%

Since the population of Saxony and Sorbs is also related to the near Polish population decided to check all Polish haplotypes within the project which brought us to 119 different haplotypes. This is the result (https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEjlX0KsjEaQb0DzsFKlJiIcGC9dEohEyPVvg5eqqesjTh 40p7wfPI3EmPfpfzAhaXNaOk_g3hnWqKwMktQlmw46-MdeLxsu3bQDLW4g8m3lmgZ_OHfeF2ykUUn5O0zioJpsJ3WeXNN NBDPDy40GX98Z44vUQaXVPfcjdTc_-XoQQSCh_rBCBzb838qPmQ=s2680) (click for image):

Leipzig has 27 matches out of 1114 = 2.42%
Chemnitz has 14 out of 743 = 1.88%
Halle has 3 out of 234 = 1.28%
Dresden has 4 out of 88 = 4.54%

44 samples out of 2091 (Leipzig, Chemnitz, Halle) is 2.10%
48 samples out of 2179 (Leipzig, Chemnitz, Halle, Dresden) is 2.20%

Since hardly remained any more different haplotypes to check and make a substantial influence on the frequency is conclusively confirmed that the frequency of I-L621 > I-CTS10228+ in Saxony is only 2% and varies from less than 2% up to 4% mainly depending on the number of tested samples.