British and Irish People; Ancestral affiliation from 23andme: Anglo Saxon, Beaker, etc.

[Bellbeaking]

https://permalinks.23andme.com/you/img/population_pages/british_irish/britishirish_edu7_2x.png

Anglo Saxon is probably Germanic and Central European Celtic Ancestry. Bell Beaker is Bell Beaker ancestry. Wales apparently has more indigenous farmer, compared to England's high farmer that came later is probably more Eastern. Not a sophisticated study but whatever.


Welsh Connection
Of the groups that invaded the British Isles in the last 2,000 years – the Romans, Anglo-Saxons, Vikings, and Normans – only the Anglo-Saxons and Vikings seem to have left a significant genetic imprint on the gene pool of modern British and Irish people. However, these post-Celtic ancestries did not penetrate all corners of the British Isles in equal measure. In Wales, for example, there is little evidence of Anglo-Saxon ancestry, which suggests that Wales has served as a sanctuary for “Beaker” and “Neolithic Farmer” ancestry.

The people of Wales have also worked hard to preserve their native language – Welsh – going so far as to mandate that Welsh be taught in schools throughout the country (Wales is classified as a country, even though it is also part of the United Kingdom). This linguistic renaissance led to an interesting situation: according to the 2011 census in Wales , more children speak Welsh (“Cymraeg” in Welsh) than do working-age adults or retirees. Try saying the name of this Welsh town: Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysilio gogogoch

0 Anglo Saxon in Wales seems silly though.


Where the Beakers proto celts? Where they pre-proto celts? Did they speak a now dead INDO-EVROPEAN language?
https://permalinks.23andme.com/you/img/population_pages/british_irish/britishirish_edu4_2x.png


The “Celtic Fringe”
After the turnover of the British and Irish gene pool during the Bronze Age, the “Celts” began to arrive from Europe, but their ancestral relationship to the preceding migrations of the Beaker people remains unclear. It’s possible that the Celts and the Bronze Age Beaker people have similar ancestry, as scientists have not yet found a distinct or unifying signature in the DNA of modern people living along the “Celtic fringe” or “Celt belt” of western Europe where distinctly Celtic traditions are still found.

It may be more accurate to think of Celtic ancestry in the British Isles as a Beaker-like “blanket,” as this Celtic-like DNA was likely widespread prior to the Roman conquest of Britain and not particularly distinct from the DNA of preceding migrations from mainland Europe. Following the disintegration of Roman rule in Britain, many people of Celtic descent in central and eastern England intermarried with Anglo-Saxons and lost their linguistic heritage. However, Celtic languages – like Welsh, Irish, and Breton – are still spoken along the Celtic fringe and Celtic cultural heritage remains deeply meaningful to millions of people around the world.

[Bellbeaking]

https://permalinks.23andme.com/you/img/population_pages/british_irish/britishirish_edu1_2x.png

clusters and tree, Scotland with England is interesting. Scotland and Ireland have similar ancestral ratios of EEF/Steppe/WHG, but they might IBD share and have more real recentl ancestry shared with England.


https://permalinks.23andme.com/you/img/population_pages/british_irish/britishirish_edu3_2x.png

Arrival of the INDO-EVROPEANS


The Beaker Revolution
By analyzing 400 skeletons from prehistoric Europe, scientists discovered that over 90% of the genetic legacy of Britain’s early inhabitants was erased following a mysterious Bronze Age migration from continental Europe. As a result of this migration, present-day populations of Britain and Ireland harbor little ancestry from the original Stone Age architects of well-known sites like Stonehenge and Newgrange. Instead, they derive significant ancestry related to the arrival of the Bronze Age “Bell-Beaker” (or just “Beaker”) people – and the distinctive pottery for which they were named – around 4,400 years ago.

The scientists determined that this particular genetic signature came from north of the Black Sea by way of Central Europe. Furthermore, the Beaker-related DNA found throughout the British Isles was distinct from the DNA of other Beaker people found in Spain, suggesting that practices associated with the Beaker phenomenon were spread through cultural exchange as well as the migration of people.

Most of you have seen this stuff anyway but I am posting anyway for fun times. Do some g25 stuff and just have fun, enjoy, be happy and love it.



HEMOCHROMATOSIS. THE CELTIC CURSE. I personally carry this allele and another allele for this disease so apparently I should give blood and not eat too much red meat or red wine because you store excess iron, this may have been beneficial at some point when there was not enough Iron in our diets but today it causes disease to joints and organs. The treatment for this is blood letting to release iron. So blood letting in the middle ages may actually have helped some people in Northern Europe. Interesting.

https://permalinks.23andme.com/you/img/population_pages/british_irish/britishirish_edu6_2x.png


Bagpipes, intricate metalwork, and red hair are often associated with Celtic heritage, but less familiar is the link between “Celtic-like” ancestry and hereditary hemochromatosis – a condition characterized by absorption of too much dietary iron, which can cause damage to the joints and certain organs.

Today, the DNA variants associated with this condition are common in Ireland, leading to the nickname, “The Celtic Curse.” However, most evidence points to a central European origin of the most common variant (HFE C282Y), which was likely carried to the British Isles thousands of years ago and further spread by medieval Viking migrations. Some scientists have proposed that the C282Y variant may have protected our farming ancestors from iron-deficient diets, but the evidence for this “protective” role is limited.

[J. Ketch]

https://permalinks.23andme.com/you/img/population_pages/british_irish/britishirish_edu7_2x.png

Anglo Saxon is probably Germanic and Central European Celtic Ancestry. Bell Beaker is Bell Beaker ancestry. Wales apparently has more indigenous farmer, compared to England's high farmer that came later is probably more Eastern. Not a sophisticated study but whatever.



0 Anglo Saxon in Wales seems silly though.


Where the Beakers proto celts? Where they pre-proto celts? Did they speak a now dead INDO-EVROPEAN language?
https://permalinks.23andme.com/you/img/population_pages/british_irish/britishirish_edu4_2x.png

Skeptical of all this but that bit of 'Farmer' in Wales is intriguing. Would really like to know how they came to these conclusions.

[Ayetooey]

On the Welsh dna project page on FTDNA, there's a surprisingly high amount of haplogroup I2 carriers, G carrier and E1b carriers; indicative of neolithic farmer heritage. Mainly R1b though ofc.

[celticdragongod]

https://permalinks.23andme.com/you/img/population_pages/british_irish/britishirish_edu1_2x.png

clusters and tree, Scotland with England is interesting. Scotland and Ireland have similar ancestral ratios of EEF/Steppe/WHG, but they might IBD share and have more real recentl ancestry shared with England.

Interesting that Ulster - which I assume means the native Irish Catholic population - and N Ireland - which I assume means the British Protestant population - do not cluster together. It seems that there has been little mixing between British colonists and native Irish over the centuries.

[Bellbeaking]

Interesting that Ulster - which I assume means the native Irish Catholic population - and N Ireland - which I assume means the British Protestant population - do not cluster together. It seems that there has been little mixing between British colonists and native Irish over the centuries.

Yes other studies have shown this too like the Irish DNA atlas. But this won't last.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17124-4

[J. Ketch]

Interesting that Ulster - which I assume means the native Irish Catholic population - and N Ireland - which I assume means the British Protestant population - do not cluster together. It seems that there has been little mixing between British colonists and native Irish over the centuries.
The clustering map in the POBI study showed that Ulster Scots are still very much 'British', whereas many West Scots are still in the Irish cluster.

[celticdragongod]

The clustering map in the POBI study showed that Ulster Scots are still very much 'British', whereas many West Scots are still in the Irish cluster.

The western Scots that are in the Irish cluster are from the Highlands. Most of the "Ulster Scots" are descended from Lowland Scots who live closer to the border with England.

[celticdragongod]

Yes other studies have shown this too like the Irish DNA atlas. But this won't last.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17124-4

Why won't it last?

[J. Ketch]

At a guess 'Anglo-Saxon' is a likeness to modern Dutch/West Germans, and Viking is likeness to modern Norwegians. The 'Celtic'/'Beaker'/'NW France' grouping is confusing to me though, and how high the NW French correlation with Insular Celts is, but it corresponds somewhat with the POBI study.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?282922-Continental-likeness-of-British-regions

I would love if this was based on ancient genomes but it seems unlikely.

[TheOldNorth]

That doesn’t look right, Ireland isn’t that Germanic, the Norman and Scandinavian invasions only affected the upper class in Ireland and Cornwall sure as hell ain’t half anglo-Saxon... Norman? Maybe, Saxon? No

[Grace O'Malley]

That doesn’t look right, Ireland isn’t that Germanic, the Norman and Scandinavian invasions only affected the upper class in Ireland and Cornwall sure as hell ain’t half anglo-Saxon... Norman? Maybe, Saxon? No

Read these two reports if you have the time.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17124-4
https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1007152&type=printable

The two Irish studies include British populations. The People of the British Isles below only includes Northern Ireland and not the rest of Ireland.

https://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org/sites/default/files/peopleofthebritishisles/documents/media/newsletter6_1.pdf (This isn't the full pdf)

There is also a paper coming out next year that uses ancient genomes

A Genomic Compendium of an Island: Documenting Continuity and Change across Irish Human Prehistory

Citation:
CASSIDY, LARA, A Genomic Compendium of an Island: Documenting Continuity and Change across Irish Human Prehistory, Trinity College Dublin.School of Genetics & Microbiology.GENETICS, 2018

Abstract:
This thesis provides an initial demographic scaffold for Irish prehistory based on the palaeogenomic analysis of 93 ancient individuals from all major periods of the island's human occupation, sequenced to a median of 1X coverage. ADMIXTURE and principal component analysis identify three ancestrally distinct Irish populations, whose inhabitation of the island corresponds closely to the Mesolithic, Neolithic and Chalcolithic/Early Bronze Age eras, with large scale migration to the island implied during the transitionary periods. Haplotypic-based sharing methods and Y chromosome analysis demonstrate strong continuity between the Early Bronze Age and modern Irish populations, suggesting no substantial population replacement has occurred on the island since this point in time. The Mesolithic population shares high genetic drift with contemporaries from France and Luxembourg and shows evidence of a severe inbreeding bottleneck, apparent through runs of homozygosity (ROH). Substantial contributions from both Mediterranean farming groups and northwestern hunter-gatherers are evident in the Neolithic Irish population. Moreover, evidence for local Mesolithic survival and introgression in southwestern Ireland, long after the commencement of the Neolithic, is also implied in haplotypic-analysis. Societal complexity during the Neolithic is suggested in patterns of Y chromosome and autosomal structure, while the identification of a highly inbred individual through ROH analysis, retrieved from an elite burial context, strongly suggests the elaboration and expansion of megalithic monuments over the course of the Neolithic was accompanied in some regions by dynastic hierarchies. Haplotypic affinities and distributions of steppe-related introgression among samples suggest a potentially bimodal introduction of Beaker culture to the island from both Atlantic and Northern European sources, with southwestern individuals showing inflated levels of Neolithic ancestry relative to individualised burials from the north and east. Signals of genetic continuity and change after this initial establishment of the Irish population are also explored, with haplotypic diversification evident between both the Bronze Age and Iron Age, and the Iron Age and present day. Across these intervals selection pressures related to nutrition appear to have acted, with variants involved in lactase persistence and skin depigmentation showing steady increases in frequency through time. less
URI:
http://hdl.handle.net/2262/82960

[Bellbeaking]

The western Scots that are in the Irish cluster are from the Highlands. Most of the "Ulster Scots" are descended from Lowland Scots who live closer to the border with England.

https://www.irishtimes.com/polopoly_fs/1.3368558.1516896580!/image/image.png Highland Scots cluster with Britain. SW Scots with Ireland. SE scots are not a category but might show show N.England Affinity.


Why won't it last?

They are mixing now

[celticdragongod]

https://www.irishtimes.com/polopoly_fs/1.3368558.1516896580!/image/image.png Highland Scots cluster with Britain. SW Scots with Ireland. SE scots are not a category but might show show N.England Affinity.



They are mixing now

Where does it show that Highland Scots cluster with Britain? There is very little mixing in the north of Ireland between the native Irish Catholics and the colonial British Protestants.

[Grace O'Malley]

Where does it show that Highland Scots cluster with Britain? There is very little mixing in the north of Ireland between the native Irish Catholics and the colonial British Protestants.

There was definitely mixing. It's silly to deny this. Look at Nationalist Icons like Gerry Adams and Bobby Sands. They both descend from Planter ancestry.

[celticdragongod]

There was definitely mixing. It's silly to deny this. Look at Nationalist Icons like Gerry Adams and Bobby Sands. They both descend from Planter ancestry.

There is no evidence of significant mixing between the two populations. Just because Adams and Sands are English last names does not mean these two men have British ancestry. Under British rule, Irish Gaelic was made illegal which meant that Irish people had to either anglicize their names - if they understood enough English to do so - or take on British last names if they didn't understand enough English to anglicize their Irish names.

[TheOldNorth]

their celtic language family tree is wrong, as the insular vs continental classification is cultural, not genealogical, the true division is between P and Q celtic, although Q celtic is probably 2 branches, Hispano-celtic and Goidelic.
and yes, the bell-beakers were likely italo-celts, that spread pre-celtic to the atlantic coast were it developed into proto celtic and spread eastward to make Gaulish, Lepontic, and Galatian.

[TheOldNorth]

Read these two reports if you have the time.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-17124-4
https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1007152&type=printable

The two Irish studies include British populations. The People of the British Isles below only includes Northern Ireland and not the rest of Ireland.

https://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org/sites/default/files/peopleofthebritishisles/documents/media/newsletter6_1.pdf (This isn't the full pdf)

There is also a paper coming out next year that uses ancient genomes

A Genomic Compendium of an Island: Documenting Continuity and Change across Irish Human Prehistory

Citation:
CASSIDY, LARA, A Genomic Compendium of an Island: Documenting Continuity and Change across Irish Human Prehistory, Trinity College Dublin.School of Genetics & Microbiology.GENETICS, 2018

Abstract:
This thesis provides an initial demographic scaffold for Irish prehistory based on the palaeogenomic analysis of 93 ancient individuals from all major periods of the island's human occupation, sequenced to a median of 1X coverage. ADMIXTURE and principal component analysis identify three ancestrally distinct Irish populations, whose inhabitation of the island corresponds closely to the Mesolithic, Neolithic and Chalcolithic/Early Bronze Age eras, with large scale migration to the island implied during the transitionary periods. Haplotypic-based sharing methods and Y chromosome analysis demonstrate strong continuity between the Early Bronze Age and modern Irish populations, suggesting no substantial population replacement has occurred on the island since this point in time. The Mesolithic population shares high genetic drift with contemporaries from France and Luxembourg and shows evidence of a severe inbreeding bottleneck, apparent through runs of homozygosity (ROH). Substantial contributions from both Mediterranean farming groups and northwestern hunter-gatherers are evident in the Neolithic Irish population. Moreover, evidence for local Mesolithic survival and introgression in southwestern Ireland, long after the commencement of the Neolithic, is also implied in haplotypic-analysis. Societal complexity during the Neolithic is suggested in patterns of Y chromosome and autosomal structure, while the identification of a highly inbred individual through ROH analysis, retrieved from an elite burial context, strongly suggests the elaboration and expansion of megalithic monuments over the course of the Neolithic was accompanied in some regions by dynastic hierarchies. Haplotypic affinities and distributions of steppe-related introgression among samples suggest a potentially bimodal introduction of Beaker culture to the island from both Atlantic and Northern European sources, with southwestern individuals showing inflated levels of Neolithic ancestry relative to individualised burials from the north and east. Signals of genetic continuity and change after this initial establishment of the Irish population are also explored, with haplotypic diversification evident between both the Bronze Age and Iron Age, and the Iron Age and present day. Across these intervals selection pressures related to nutrition appear to have acted, with variants involved in lactase persistence and skin depigmentation showing steady increases in frequency through time. less
URI:
http://hdl.handle.net/2262/82960

A strong survival of Neolithic populations in the south west explains the black irish

[Grace O'Malley]

There is no evidence of significant mixing between the two populations. Just because Adams and Sands are English last names does not mean these two men have British ancestry. Under British rule, Irish Gaelic was made illegal which meant that Irish people had to either anglicize their names - if they understood enough English to do so - or take on British last names if they didn't understand enough English to anglicize their Irish names.

Yes they do and many Protestants have Irish names.


Bobby was descended from an English family which migrated to the Lowlands of Scotland in the early 1400’s before relocating to the northern Irish province of Ulster in the 1600’s. Gerry descends from some of the MacAdams of Galloway, a sept of the notorious Clan Gregor, who likewise crossed west over the Irish Sea to Ulster during the Plantations. According to Gerry’s bio he is related to the political Adams family of the early United States which produced the country’s second and sixth presidents, as are the Adams from whom I am descended that were among the first settlers of the original Warren County in Tennessee.

https://www.chattanoogan.com/2013/6/10/252998/Origin-of-the-Term-Scotch-Irish.aspx

Before this can be attempted, however, some attempt should be made to establish the extent of 'mixed marriage' in Northern Ireland. In fact this has varied over time, geographically and in relation to social variables, so that the general figure of around 10% which has been suggested for the province as a whole is not very helpful and may not even be accurate. Compton (1989) had found that 3.6% of all marriages were mixed at the time of asking and that this rose to 6% when respondents were asked about religion of origin. Comparable figures from the 1991 Census (Compton, 1995) indicate that 2.3% of marriages in Northern Ireland were mixed. Details are not available for percentages relating to religion of origin. Analysis of four years of the Northern Ireland Social Attitudes data (1989, 1991, 1993, 1994) show a figure of 6%. However these Northern Ireland figures hide considerable variation across the province. Data obtained from the Catholic Diocesan office (Robinson, 1992) reveal that, in 1991, 20% of all marriages in the Down and Connor diocese were mixed; the comparable figure for the Armagh diocese was 4% and for the Derry Diocese it was 9%. Further analysis of the 1993 Northern Ireland Social Attitude data by area of residence reveals a variation of 8.4% in Belfast, 6.2% in the East of the Province and 2.2 % in the West.

It might have been anticipated that over the period of the current 'Troubles', heightened community tension would have led to a reduction in the rate of mixed marriages, but in fact over the last 25 years the incidence has fluctuated considerably, and there seems to have been some increase since the mid 1980s. For example figures relating to the number of 'mixed marriages' celebrated in Catholic churches in the diocese of Down and Connor (including Belfast) suggest that the proportion grew during the late 1960s and early 1970s, reaching 25 % of marriages in the diocese in 1971. Subsequently, in the late 1970s, during the most violent phase of the Troubles, the figure fell before rising again to about 16% in the late 1980s (Lee. 1994). Interpreting such data is, however, somewhat problematic since there have been other social changes during the period, such as an increase in civil marriages and in couples choosing to live together without marrying, which may also have affected the pattern.

https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/csc/reports/mixed.htm#one

[celticdragongod]

Yes they do and many Protestants have Irish names.



https://www.chattanoogan.com/2013/6/10/252998/Origin-of-the-Term-Scotch-Irish.aspx

Before this can be attempted, however, some attempt should be made to establish the extent of 'mixed marriage' in Northern Ireland. In fact this has varied over time, geographically and in relation to social variables, so that the general figure of around 10% which has been suggested for the province as a whole is not very helpful and may not even be accurate. Compton (1989) had found that 3.6% of all marriages were mixed at the time of asking and that this rose to 6% when respondents were asked about religion of origin. Comparable figures from the 1991 Census (Compton, 1995) indicate that 2.3% of marriages in Northern Ireland were mixed. Details are not available for percentages relating to religion of origin. Analysis of four years of the Northern Ireland Social Attitudes data (1989, 1991, 1993, 1994) show a figure of 6%. However these Northern Ireland figures hide considerable variation across the province. Data obtained from the Catholic Diocesan office (Robinson, 1992) reveal that, in 1991, 20% of all marriages in the Down and Connor diocese were mixed; the comparable figure for the Armagh diocese was 4% and for the Derry Diocese it was 9%. Further analysis of the 1993 Northern Ireland Social Attitude data by area of residence reveals a variation of 8.4% in Belfast, 6.2% in the East of the Province and 2.2 % in the West.

It might have been anticipated that over the period of the current 'Troubles', heightened community tension would have led to a reduction in the rate of mixed marriages, but in fact over the last 25 years the incidence has fluctuated considerably, and there seems to have been some increase since the mid 1980s. For example figures relating to the number of 'mixed marriages' celebrated in Catholic churches in the diocese of Down and Connor (including Belfast) suggest that the proportion grew during the late 1960s and early 1970s, reaching 25 % of marriages in the diocese in 1971. Subsequently, in the late 1970s, during the most violent phase of the Troubles, the figure fell before rising again to about 16% in the late 1980s (Lee. 1994). Interpreting such data is, however, somewhat problematic since there have been other social changes during the period, such as an increase in civil marriages and in couples choosing to live together without marrying, which may also have affected the pattern.

https://cain.ulster.ac.uk/csc/reports/mixed.htm#one

Then why are there two distinct genetic clusters in the north of Ireland?