Anglo-Saxon Gaul - toponymical evidence

[Osweo]

Yep, we were there. We don't have any immediate plans to take these lands back, but we won't completely rule out the possibility sometime down the line... :p
(This post is a summary of a discussion on Skadi some time ago)
Anglo-Saxon placenames in Normandy and Artois...
http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/6899/p1240007zy0.jpg

It's from John Morris's Age of Arthur, which I recently bought from an old book shop in Lincoln.

The top map shows the very top bit of France, formerly Flemish territory in the centre, still so in the east, and the western part having been probably a stopping point for the Jutes in their travels from Jutland to Kent and Wight. The -ing element is most noticeable here, an element linked in Britain with the very earliest Germanic settlements (concentrated in the east and south of the country).

The lower part is Normandy, the wiggly river being the Seine which flows through Paris, in the bottom right. The names seem a little later here, reflecting a different settlement history. Frankish Kings settled Anglo-Saxon vassals here, and the name of Eadwacer should probably be cited as a leader of note.

The -hou puzzled me a little. Was it Norse haugr - burial mound - a sort of site named rather -low in Anglo-Saxon areas? Aemma put me on the right track with

hou; English islet ( cf. holm, mainly in placenames), Old Norse hulmʀ, French îlot
... which I found very interesting! And the final M is preserved in the suffixed form too...

Oddly enough, we have a few Hulmes where I come from in Manchester; Levenshulme, Kirkmanshulm, Hulme Hall. In the rest of the county of Lancashire, the equivalent is mostly Holme with an O and a different pronunciation. Our -U- form is supposed to indicate Scandinavian settlement of a Danish rather than Norwegian origin, as does the personal name Flikr in Flixton.

Interesting that Normagne has the ou sound. Danish influence, or an independent development of the vowel on Gaulish soil, I wonder?


Returning to West Germanic, the English names from the area around Calais are better seen here:
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/5857/artoisanglaisnameskjq6.png

The remarkable similarity with some modern English names is very striking.

I wrote up most of the names I could find from my Dad's French road atlas which I stole the other day. I'm in the middle of playing around to see the English personal or tribal names that are obscured under the French orthography, far from finished, and would appreciate other opinions! I now give the list of individual places bearing traces of this Dark Age migration.

The numbers are the grid references in my atlas, and I can't be bother deleting them all for your benefit! If there's a 'Fl' at the end, it means the place in not in the French Republic, but in Belgian Flanders. Later Flemish influence may have produced a few of these names, though Flemings may have adopted and modified older ones. As far as I can tell, -inge names are less frequent in Flanders as a whole than in the west and Artois.

All supposed derivations from Anglo-Saxon placenames are highly conjectural, owing nothing to any scholarship beyond my mere 'hunch'! Many names are taken from English place-name books however. Here goes:
Anglo-Saxon Normandy

Quettehou 6 e2 Hwaet's holm?
Blehou 6 e5 Blaecca's holm?
Tribehou 6 e5
Quettetot? 6 c3 Hwaet's toft?
Ouistreham? 7 K5
Englesqueville la Percée 7 g4
Englesqueville en Auge 8 b7
Anglesqueville l’Esneval 8 b5
Anglesqueville les Murs 8 d3
Anglesqueville la Bras Long 8 e4
Englesqueville 8 e3
Vinnemerville? 8 d4 Winemaer?

Artois and Flanders, ordered by type

Alincthun 2 c4 Aella
Assinghem 2 d4 Assa
Audincthun 2 d5 Aldwine?
Baincthun 2 b4 Baega
Connincthun 2 b3 Cyning, Konungr?
Olincthun 2 b3 *Olla c.f. Olney, Bucks. Osla? C.f. Osla Big Knife - as mentioned in the Welsh Mabinogion
Terlincthun 2 b3 *Tilla, Tyrhtel, *Theofel
Verlincthun 2 b5 Waerla, Waerblith, Waerhild,

Raventhun 2 b3 Hrafn
Wadenthun 2 b3 Wada

Berthum? 2 d3 Beorhta
Berthen 3 f3 Beorhta
Bethune? 3 f5 Bea, Beda, Baega, Beage
Fréthun 2 c2 *Freo
Landrethun le Nord 2 b3 Landhere? C.f. Frank Landegisilo
Landrethun lès Ardres 2 c3 Landhere? *Landa
Offrethun 2 b3 Offa, Ofhere

Alveringem 3 g2 Fl Aelfhere
Balinghem 2 c3 Balla? Bealg?
Barbinghem 2 d4 Babba? Barba?
Bayenghem les Eperlecques 2 d3 Baega?
Bayenghem lés Seninghem 2 d4 Baega?
Bezinghem 2 c5 Besa c.f. Beswick
Blaringhem 2 e4 Blaecred
Boisdinghem 2 d4
Bouvelinghem 2 d4
Capinghem 3 h5 Capa
Drincham 2 e2 Eadric?
Eblinghem 2 e4 Eadbald?
Eringhem 2 e2 Eared
Erquinghem le Sec 3 g5 Eoric
Erquinghem Lys 3 g5 Eoric
Floringhem 2 e5 Folchere?
Glomenghem 2 d4 *Gumela?
SMd’Hardinghem 2 d5 Hearda
Heuringhem 2 e4
Honninghem 2 e5 Huna
Inghem 2 d4 Ingwe?
Ledinghem 2 c4 Leod
Ledringhem 2 e3 Leod
Leulinghem 2 d4 Lulla
Nort Leulinghem 2 d3 Lulla
Linghem 2 e5 L
Lozinghem 2 e5
Maninghem 2 c5 Mana
Matringhem 2 d5 Modred?
Mazinghem 2 e5 Massa
Molinghem 2 e5 Moll
Moringhem 2 d4 Modred?
Oblinghem 3 f5 Osbald?
Racquinghem 2 e4 *Wrocc?
Radinghem 2 d5 *Reada,
Radinghem en Weppes 3 g5
Reclinghem 2 d5 *Ricela, c.f. Ricula, Kent daughter
Rodelinghem 2 c3 Raedel
Ruminghem 2 d3 Ruma
Seninghem 2 d4 Saenoth?
Tatinghem 2 d4 Tata
Vaudringhem 2 d4 Forthhere? C.f. Forthhelm
Vedringhem 2 d4 *Widuhere, *Wether x2
Verlinghem 3 h5 *Waerla
Wicquinghem 2 c5 *Wic, *Wicing
Wulveringem 3 f1 Fl Wulfhere

Audinghen 2 b3
Bainghen 2 c4
Bazinghen 2 b3 Basa c.f. Basingstoke
Bouquinghen 2 b3 Bucca c.f. Buckingham
Echinghen 2 b4 *Eohhere?
Elinghen 2 b3 Aella
Gravelines (Grevelingen) 2 d2
Halinghen 2 b5 *Heall
Hardinghen 2 c3 Hearda? – Chorlton cum Hardy
Herbinghen 2 c3 Herebeorht?
Hermelinghen 2 c3
Hervelinghen 2 b3 Herewald?
Hocquinghen 2 c3 *Hafoc, *Haca
Leubringhen 2 b3 Leodbriht, Leppa
Leulinghen Bernes 2 b3 Lulla
Lottinghen 2 c4 Leodbriht?
Maninghen Henne 2 b3 Mana
Maquinghen 2 b4 *Macca x2 *Maecca x3
Nabringhen 2 c4
Questinghen 2 b4 *Hwaessa? X2
Tardinghen 2 b3 Tilweard? Torhtred?
Wacquinghen 2 b3 Waca

Affringues 2 d4 Affa
Autingues 2 c3 *Otta
Bonningues lès Ardres 2 c3 Beonna
Bonningues lès Calais 2 b2 Beonna
Peuplingues 2 b2 Pyppel c.f. Peopleton Wo.

Rebertingue 2 b3 Redbeorht
Wulverdinghe 2 e3 Wulfheard

Boezinge 3 g2 Fl Bosa
Elverdinge 3 g3 Fl Aelfweard Aethelferth Alhferth
Haringe 3 f2 Fl Haerra, *Here
Poperinge 3 g3 Fl *Pempa
Lo Reninge 3 g2 Fl
Reninge 3 g2 Fl *Raegen x2, *Regna x7
Vlamertinge 3 g3 Fl

Frelinghien 3 h5 Freawulf?

Reningelst 3 g3 Fl

Bavinchove 2 e3 Bofa
Gijverinkhove 3 f2 Fl Geatfrith?
Polincove? 2 d3 *Poll x2
Pollinkhove 3 g2 Fl
Volckerinckhove 2 e3 Folchere

Leffrinckoucke 2 e1 Leofhere

Debateable, or later Flemish? ;

Widehem? 2 b5
Dohem? 2 d5
Cuhem? 2 e5 Cow
Westrehem? 2 e5 wester
Ham en Artois? 3 f5
Gonnehem? 3 f5
Lestrem? 3 f5
Pihem? 2 d4
Boëseghem 2 e4 Bosa
Hondeghem 3 f4 Hunda
Wulvergem 3 g5 Flanders Wulfhere
Audrehem 2 c3 Aldhere
Hames Boucres? 2 c3
Recques sur Hem? 2 d3
Tournehem sur la Hem 2 d3
Téteghem 2 e1
Warhem 3 f2
Killem 3 f2
Killem Lynde 3 f2
Vinkem 3 f1 Fl
Wounem 3 g2 Fl
Pitgam 2 e2
Waldam? 2 c2
Les Hemmes d’Oye 2 c2
Les Hemmes de Marck 2 c2
Booneghem 2 e3
Millam? 2 e3

Fauguembergues? 2 d5
Isbergues? 2 e5
Rebergues? 2 c4
Looberghe 2 e2
Bergues 2 e2

Dennebroeucq? 2 d5 Denu?
Hazebrouck (Hazebroek) 3 f4
Rubrouck 2 e3
Erkels Brugge 2 e3 Ercel’s?

Grand Mille Brugge 2 e2
Hoymille 2 e2 Heah?
Haeghe Meulen 3 f2

Outtersteene 3 f4
Steenwerck 3 g5
Steene 2 e2

Steenbecque 3 f4
Morbecque 3 f4
Esquelbecq 2 e2 Scel?
Escobecques? 3 g5 Sceaga?
Bambecque 3 f2

Brucquedal? 2 b4
Rosendaël 2 el
Watterdal? 2 c4

Ghyvelde 3 f1
Godewaersvelde 3 f3 Godweard
Riet Veld 2 e3

Warneton 3 h5 Wallon
Warneton 3 h5
Bas Warneton 3 h5 Wallon
Warne? 2 e4


Sanghen? 2 c3
Watten? 2 d3

Brouckerque 2 e2
Offekerque 2 c2 Offa
Haverskerque? 3 f5 Heahfrith
Houtkerque 3 f3
Nortkerque 2 d3
Zutkerque 2 d3
Coudekerque 2 e2
Dunkerque (Duinkerken) 2 e1
Coudekerque Branche 2 e1

Eggewaartskapelle 3 g1 Fl Ecgweard
West Cappel 3 f2
Oost Cappel 3 f2
St Jans Cappel 3 g5
Zegerscappel 2 e3
Wemaers Cappel 2 e3 Wigmaer?
Ste Marie and St Sylvestre Cappel 3 f3
Armbouts Cappel 2 e2


Strazeele 3 f4
Bollezeele 2 e3
Zermezeele 2 e3
Broxeele 2 e3
Ochtezeele 2 e3 Octha?
Winnezeele 3 f3
Herzeele 3 f3
Oudezeele 3 f3
Voormezele 3 g3 Fl
Bissezeele 2 e2

Hardifort 3 f3 Hearda?
Steenvoorde 3 f3
Coppenaxfort 2 e2
Audenfort? 2 c3 Aldwine?
Fort Mardyck 2 e1

Hondschoote 3 f2 Hunda?
Zuydcoote 3 f1

Les Moëres 3 f1
De Moeren 3 f1 Fl

Salperwick? 2 d3
Craywick? 2 d2

Happe? 2 c5
Ostove? 2 d3
Westouter 3 g3 Fl
Sangatte? 2 b2
Marck 2 c2
Guemps 2 c2
L’Aa River 2 d2 Ea
Les Huttes? 2 d2
Spycker 2 e2
Bellebrun? 2 b4
Rexpoëde 3 f2
Wylder 3 f2
Nieppe 2 e2
Socx 2 e2
Quaedypre 2 e2
Buysscheure 2 e3
Nieurlet 2 e3
Noordpeene 2 e3
Zuytpeene 2 e3
Arnèke 2 e3
Wormhout 2 e3 Wyrma?
Eecke 3 f3
Boeschepe 3 f3
Cassel (Kassel) 3 f3

[Osweo]

Me and Aemma then did some rooting around for books on this toponymic curiosity. I post our results below, for future reference, and maybe we can build on what we have here:


By the way, what 'placenames' in Francais? Or rather 'The French Academy's Concise Dictionary of French Place-Names'? I really am interesting in acquiring something of that nature, as I said in an earlier post!

I remember a little bit of French from School, and have looked a round on google, so here's a few to be going on with:

http://www.memodoc.com/catgeneral_toponymie.htm

http://www.archivesnationales.cultur...ponymie_fr.pdf

http://www.cdip.com/toponymes-france/

Toponymie de la France and Noms de Lieux seem to be the keywords.

Monsieur Negre seems to have a big fat expensive book, and also a cheap public consumption one. Perhaps worth a look:

NEGRE (E.) Toponymie générale de la France, Etymologie de 35 000 noms de lieux Genève, Droz, 1990-1998, in-8, 1871 pp. 4 Vol. 236 € Tome 1 : Formation préceltique, celtiques et romanes. Tome 2 : Formations non-tomanes, formation dialectales. Tome 3 : Formations dialectales (Suite) et Français. Tome 4 : Errata et addenda aux trois volumes
2001 M-C 361 2C

NEGRE (Ernest) Les noms de lieux en France. P., Artrey, 1977, pet; in-8, 184 pp 12 €

http://www.librairie-occitania.com/viii.html


Great stuff Oswiu! Thank you!

Yes 'nom de lieux' is the word. I've also come across the word 'lieu-dit'. But nom de lieux is directly translated as name (nom) of (de) place (as you can guess, place ).

As for those footnoted references I mentioned, here they are if it helps any. They are taken from François Neveux's book, The Normans: The Conquest That Changed the Face of Europe (2008, translated copy).

1. Le Malo, 'Les normands de la Seine à la fin du IXe siècle,' (article with map of Scandinavian place-names in the Seine Valley)

2. J. Renaud, Les Vikings et la Normandie, Rennes: Éditions Ouest-France, 1989 (contains Scandinavian place-names in the Caux and Basse-Seine)

3. R. Lepelley, Dictionnaire étymologique des noms de communes de Normandie, Caen/Condé-sur-Noireau: Presses universitaires de Caen/Corlet, 1993.

I'll try to post an excerpt from Neveux's book a bit later re: section on place-names and such. A bit more info to check out.

Cheers for now!...Aemma

Here's some from French Amazon;
http://www.amazon.fr/Noms-lieux-Norm...3329331&sr=1-7 NINE Euros only! Might get one!

Britanny here (Off Topic for the Thread, and maybe even the Forum, but of interest to all Britons with a brain ):
http://www.amazon.fr/noms-racontent-...329331&sr=1-10
16 Euros

Sadly out of stock:
http://www.amazon.fr/Dictionnaire-to...329944&sr=1-49

Ditto.
http://www.amazon.fr/%C3%A9tymologiq...331814&sr=1-98

This is general, but looks a bit naff from the cover... Only 5.85 Euros, mind! Only 319 pages though.
http://www.amazon.fr/noms-villes-vil...329812&sr=1-16

Better: 751 pp. but 28 Euros 50...
http://www.amazon.fr/Dictionnaire-%C...3330628&sr=1-1

Not so easy to find a good general reference book - are the French less interested in this sort of thing than the English? Or is Amazon not their main book selling site? Is there somewhere else I should look?

[YggsVinr]

Hm, very interesting. I have Jean Renaud's Les Vikings et la Normandie but it's in Ontario currently so I wouldn't be able to take another look through it until May. You might try some of Jean Mabire's books as well as he talks about Norman place names as well, however I can't recall whether it is in Histoire secrète de la Normandie or Histoire de la Normandie or in both, again wouldn't be able to check until May, but I'm sure Amazon has those still if either of you want to look into it. It's been a while since I've read those three so my memory's a little fuzzy.

[YggsVinr]

Well, it seems I'm blind as I was looking through my bookshelf for another book and noticed I do have Histoire secrète here. Anyways, I was flipping through it out of curiosity, and at the end of the chapter on the werewolf in Normandy he finishes with the following comment:


Les Francs, les Saxons, et les Vikings venus s'installer en Normandie n'abandonnèrent point leurs anciennes traditions

While that doesn't help you guys' search much, he does seem to acknowledge some kind of Saxon settlement of Normandy to a degree. I'll keep reading through it and post anything if I find anything that might be helpful to you guys.

EDIT: Alright, so I kept browsing through the book and found a section on Norse place names in Normandy that mentions some of the suffixes in this thread:


Ainsi -tot, qui signifie le domaine et que l'on trouve associé soit au souvenir d'un homme, comme dans Routot : le domaine de Rou, ou d'un object comme Ecquetot : le domaine de chênes.

Parmi ces noms purement nordiques, on peut citer sans que la liste soit limitative : bec, ruisseau (Caudebec our Bolbec) ; beuf qui vient de budh, baraque (Lindebeuf) ; bu de byr, résidence (Carquebut our Tournebu) ; dal, vallée (Diepdal) ; ecalles qui vient de scali, chalet (Ecalles-Alix) ; fleur de floi, estuaire (Barfleur ou Honfleur) ; gard de gardhr, enclos (Auppegard) ; hogue de haugr, colline (La Hague) ; homme de holmr, îlot (Robehomme) ; houle de holr, trou (Houlgate) ; hus, maison (Etainhus) ; londe de lundr, forêt (Bouquelon) ; torp, hameau (Clitourps ou Torgistorp) ; thuit de thveit, l'essart (Bracquetuit our Le Thuit) ; vic de vik, baie (Sanvic) ; etc.

...

C'est ainsi que l'on retrouve sur la carte d'état-major des noms authentiquement norrois comme Le Thuit, La Londe, Le Tot, Le Bec, etc.

I'm no linguist and you seem to be better with this sort of thing, Oswiu, but could the "hou" in question be derived from -hus or houle/holr?

And another EDIT: Hm, a quick wikipedia search brought this up:


The creation of Quettehou dates back to the Viking invasions when Ketil, chief of a Viking tribe, decided to settle at the top of the hill dominating the bay of Morsalines. With time, [Ketilsholm] became known as Quettehou.

[Osweo]

The creation of Quettehou dates back to the Viking invasions when Ketil, chief of a Viking tribe, decided to settle at the top of the hill dominating the bay of Morsalines. With time, [Ketilsholm] became known as Quettehou.
Good one! I actually live near a Kettleshulme in Lancashire!!! I wonder how this name looks in modern Scandinavian? :icon_ask:

[Osweo]

Interesting! Would be interesting to look deeper into the history of both locations. Do you know much about the history of Kettleshulme? Now that I'm home I have access to some of the books I mentioned before. Will flip through a few.
The 'Hulme' in this name (and nearby Levenshulme - Leofwine's Holmr - a holme named after a native Englishman, and several simple 'Hulmes') is contrasted with the usual -holme, and supposed to denote specifically Danish dialect, rather than Norwegian. Also in the area is Flixton, and the forename Flik is also said to be specifically Danish.

This area around Manchester is on the southwestern border of the Kingdom of Northumbria, and its successor the Danish Kingdom of Jorvik (York). You might hazard a guess therefore, that the Danes had deliberately planted a colony there by the Mersey and Irwell, to defend against West Saxon aggression via Mercia.

The rest of Lancashire is solidly Norwegian, and that from the Irish Sea colonies of Ireland, Man and the Western Isles of Scotland.. :thumb001:

[YggsVinr]

The 'Hulme' in this name (and nearby Levenshulme - Leofwine's Holmr - a holme named after a native Englishman, and several simple 'Hulmes') is contrasted with the usual -holme, and supposed to denote specifically Danish dialect, rather than Norwegian. Also in the area is Flixton, and the forename Flik is also said to be specifically Danish.

This area around Manchester is on the southwestern border of the Kingdom of Northumbria, and its successor the Danish Kingdom of Jorvik (York). You might hazard a guess therefore, that the Danes had deliberately planted a colony there by the Mersey and Irwell, to defend against West Saxon aggression via Mercia.

The rest of Lancashire is solidly Norwegian, and that from the Irish Sea colonies of Ireland, Man and the Western Isles of Scotland.. :thumb001:

Thanks for that interesting bit of info:thumb001:

I was reading around in Jean Renaud's Les Vikings et la Normandie this evening and found something of interest:


Cependant, l'appellatif "holmr" a également abouti à "hou", après vocalisation du l et chute du m - tout comme "Rolfr" est devenu "Rou" - et, sous cette forme, il a servi, rarement seul, le plus souvent en composition, à désigner des îlots et des rochers des côtes du Cotentin (where Quettehou is located) et des îles Anglo-Normandes, ainsi que des localités du Cotentin plus ou moins entourées d'eau. On trouve Lihou, petite île à l'ouest de Guernesey, ou le premier élément est "hlith" (pente), ou Burhou...Les Ecrehou...etc

Parmi les localités, citons Quettehou (près de Saint-Vaast), anciennement "Chetellehou" (1047) et "Keitehulm" (1080)...

The spelling Keitehulm reminded me of your Kettleshulme. The issue with Normandy is that the origins of the majority of its Scandinavian settlers are still somewhat debatable. In the past and in a tradition that both Mabire and Renaud are a part of it is quite common to point toward Norway, yet there is evidently some Danish input (one that was likely quite strong). Either way, I can imagine there was a mixture of the two and partially regional as in the British Isles, but Quettehou from hulm and Kettlehulme from what you wrote as specifically a Danish dialect makes me wonder a little about the namesake(s) of both locations.

[Mesrine]

Yep, we were there. We don't have any immediate plans to take these lands back, but we won't completely rule out the possibility sometime down the line... :p

LOL at "we". When I see the size of the internet army behind you, let me seriously doubt about any "possibility sometime down the line". :D

[Osweo]

This is general, but looks a bit naff from the cover... Only 5.85 Euros, mind! Only 319 pages though.
http://www.amazon.fr/noms-villes-vil...329812&sr=1-16
Well, I bought it. And choosing books by their covers always has some sense...

Witness the comparison:
English toponymy book
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/9770/200906300167.jpg
French version
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/8762/200906020113b.jpg
:P Quite an eloquent demonstration of our differing national characters! :D

ANyway, while it's not half as comprehensive or ordered as i would like, there's some good info in there, which I'll share when I get round to.

Normans and their kinfolk here may be interested to hear of
Beaudreville - Baldhere's ville.
Calvados has its Englesqueville, as does Marne departement, and Seine Maritime, which latter has in addition an Anglesqueville.
The Norman Annebec has the same Norse ending as many -becks in England, but I wonder if the Anna who it was named after was not an Englishman himself? It's a known English man's name, borne by Kings even, but I'm not aware of a Norse parallel.

I may open new threads on curious toponymical matters not pertaining to the Anglo-Saxon settlements. :)

[Luern]

Quite an eloquent demonstration of our differing national characters!

C'est ce qu'on appelle les gauloiseries. Tu n'auras cependant aucune difficulté à trouver des ouvrages au contenu beaucoup plus académique.

[Aemma]

C'est ce qu'on appelle les gauloiseries. Tu n'auras cependant aucune difficulté à trouver des ouvrages au contenu beaucoup plus académique.


Pourrais-tu recommander certaines sources ou titres même svp Luern? :)