View Full Version : Armenians: Do they have any Indo-European genes?
Karaton
07-31-2019, 11:09 AM
As we can see from the PCA below, they are clustering tightly with Assyrians (Süryani). Although this PCA does not contain Armenians from Armenia, they are not so different from Eastern Anatolian Armenians.
https://scontent.fbtz1-4.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.15752-9/67748461_425555868073985_7052576753776066560_n.jpg ?_nc_cat=106&_nc_oc=AQkOJEa3Kmm73XZVYK9PbpaGFMY5asGyvgqmN2X9vSB TB7q4M70qxO3AelET-pkbpY8&_nc_ht=scontent.fbtz1-4.fna&oh=c7e3fbea8dd406dcd235bc49648db476&oe=5DDC94B9
Tigranes
07-31-2019, 11:20 AM
Armenian Higlands was the original homeland of Proto-Indo-Europeans.
Tigranes
07-31-2019, 11:24 AM
According to the chart in the OP Georgians are closer to Assyrians than Laz, it seems inaccurate IMO...
Armenian Higlands was the original homeland of Proto-Indo-Europeans.It looks like that. Because Mycenaeans, the Hittites and Maykop folks came most likely frogm the Armenian Plateau. But I think there is not much Iranian Plateau farmer auDNA in that area and therefore we should look to the Iranian Azerbaijan area (Leyla-Tepe) (or Norther Mesopotamia) for the original first stage PIEan homeland
Ayetooey
07-31-2019, 02:30 PM
Autosomally they are mainly Neolithic farmer + CHG; but they do have some steppe input. What really matters here however is direct descent; and in terms of Y dna Armenians have a decent amount of R1; they also speak an indo european language and are thus "indo european people". So yes; they do.
TheOldNorth
07-31-2019, 03:11 PM
Armenian Higlands was the original homeland of Proto-Indo-Europeans.
*according to some theories*
*according to some theories*All recent academic studies on human genetics support these theories.
SharpFork
07-31-2019, 11:31 PM
A Kurd and an Armenian can agree on one thing, that *their*(the details will be decided later) homeland is the origin of X important thing, how credible.
TheOldNorth
08-01-2019, 12:03 AM
All recent academic studies on human genetics support these theories.
I haven't read those articles yet, I'd love to see them
Phenix
08-01-2019, 12:12 AM
Must be so.
Arsen_
08-01-2019, 12:21 AM
As we can see from the PCA below, they are clustering tightly with Assyrians (Süryani). Although this PCA does not contain Armenians from Armenia, they are not so different from Eastern Anatolian Armenians.
Population genetics is not a science but a prostitute and all that charts are utter bullshit that any douchebag interprets as he wants. The facts and the reality is the following: the oldest Indo-European people on earth with the earliest attested Indo-European language are the Hittites, and the Hittites and Armenians are the same people:
https://c.radikal.ru/c37/1812/eb/f9f09b537313.jpg
https://b.radikal.ru/b27/1812/ff/0af9a034afb7t.jpg
https://d.radikal.ru/d32/1812/9f/93b700864439.jpg
A Kurd and an Armenian can agree on one thing, that *their*(the details will be decided later) homeland is the origin of X important thing, how credible.It is what the 'western' academics have examined. Nothing to do with the Kurds of Armenians.
Or should I believe what the so called retard uneducated wannabe Aryans want us to make believe? They can believe in fairytales, I believe in science!
I haven't read those articles yet, I'd love to see themUnder which stone do you live? You missed all the academic papers of David Reich, Johannes Krause, Nick Patterson, Wolfgang Haak, Iosif Lazaridis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a34TgLS9Tj8
Btw, according to the Max Planck Society first stage of PIEan is the Armenian Plateau or somewhere in West Iran.
Max Planck Society =
The Max Planck Society for the Advancement of Science (German: Max-Planck-Gesellschaft zur Förderung der Wissenschaften e. V.; abbreviated MPG) is a formally independent non-governmental and non-profit association of German research institutes founded in 1911 as the Kaiser Wilhelm Society and renamed the Max Planck Society in 1948 in honor of its former president, theoretical physicist Max Planck. The society is funded by the federal and state governments of Germany.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Planck_Society
The MOST important study on PIEan homeland of the recent times:
The insight that the Caucasus mountains served not only as a corridor for the spread of CHG/Neolithic Iranian ancestry but also for later gene-flow from the south also has a bearing on the postulated homelands of Proto-Indo-European (PIE) languages and documented gene-flows that could have carried a consecutive spread of both across West Eurasia. Perceiving the Caucasus as an occasional bridge rather than a strict border during the Eneolithic and Bronze Age opens up the possibility of a homeland of PIE south of the Caucasus, which itself provides a parsimonious explanation for an early branching off of Anatolian languages. Geographically this would also work for Armenian and Greek, for which genetic data also supports an eastern influence from Anatolia or the southern Caucasus.
Wang, C. C., Reinhold, S. R., Kalmykov, A., Wissgott, A., Brandt, G., Jeong, C., ... & Mallick, S. (2018). The genetic prehistory of the Greater Caucasus. bioRxiv, 322347.
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/322347v1
the Hittites and Armenians are the same people:The ancient Indo-European Hittites were native Anatolians, and they were cloe to the Armenians, but they were not the same as Armenians. The Hittites were mostly J2a folks.
People who 'believe' in the Steppe model can never solve the Hitttites problem. They have no solution because Hittites (proto-Anatolian) might be older than Yamnaya!
https://i.postimg.cc/XJHTd8zS/a.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/4yjqF3GW/b.jpg
de Barros Damgaard, P., Martiniano, R., Kamm, J., Moreno-Mayar, J. V., Kroonen, G., Peyrot, M., ... & Zaibert, V. (2018). The first horse herders and the impact of early Bronze Age steppe expansions into Asia. Science, 360(6396), eaar7711.
https://www.academia.edu/36669320/The_First_Horse_Herders_and_the_Impact_of_Early_Br onze_Age_Steppe_Expansions_into_Asia_including_sup plementary_materials_arch._and_linguistic_backgrou nd_papers_
FinalFlash
08-01-2019, 01:53 AM
On Eurogenes K15, Eastern Armenians register roughly 12% Steppe admixture and they are genetically closest to Pontians, Black Sea Turks and Georgian Laz.
Your average Eastern Armenian is genetically distant to Assyrians by about 11 units if not more.
These maps and default calculators are inaccurate and severely outdated.
Arsen_
08-01-2019, 02:20 AM
The ancient Indo-European Hittites were native Anatolians, and they were cloe to the Armenians, but they were not the same as Armenians.
At least they are twin brothers. Take a look for example at the book "The Solution to the Hittite Question" by Peter Jensen where Jensen said that Armenian is the closest language to the Hittite language, and Armenians themselves a remnant of Hittites.
SharpFork
08-01-2019, 06:21 PM
*genetics is bullshit* top argument 2019.
*Brings up Max Planck institute, well known for being contrarian to just about any agreed mainstream opinion*
Let's be honest, you all just want to feel good about yourself and aggrandize your own country/region, everyone else somehow manages to accept that their country or region is not in fact the center of the world but you can't, that tells more about you than anything else.
SharpFork
08-01-2019, 06:23 PM
At least they are twin brothers. Take a look for example at the book "The Solution to the Hittite Question" by Peter Jensen where Jensen said that Armenian is the closest language to the Hittite language, and Armenians themselves a remnant of Hittites.
Hittites never even conquered or lived in any potential Armenian land(or Urartian or Nairi land even), the most likely descendant of Hittite are other Anatolian languages(Luwian, Lydian etc.)
*genetics is bullshit* top argument 2019.
*Brings up Max Planck institute, well known for being contrarian to just about any agreed mainstream opinion*
Let's be honest, you all just want to feel good about yourself and aggrandize your own country/region, everyone else somehow manages to accept that their country or region is not in fact the center of the world but you can't, that tells more about you than anything else.It says actually something about you than about anything else. It is you who is actually denying the scientific facts. You just can't accept that the region where you are from was not very import in the ancient world. Region where you are from was uncivilized and populated by very primitive hunter-gatherers, who were also cannibals. Later on some civilization came to the Steppes from Iran and people started to behave like humans in the Steppes.
Just an advise, educate yourself and go and study the ancient history. Maybe you will find out that it is actually not really smart trying to steal history from other regions.
Max Planck institute is unbiased, unlike wannabe Aryans and uneducated retard amteurs from the Eastern Europe.
At least they are twin brothers. Take a look for example at the book "The Solution to the Hittite Question" by Peter Jensen where Jensen said that Armenian is the closest language to the Hittite language, and Armenians themselves a remnant of Hittites.Hittite DNA is very different from the modern Armenian DNA.
What we know is that ancient Armenians lived next to the Hittites homeland and that Armenians were close to the Hittites. But it doesn't really matter.
It has been said that the Hittites predate Yamnaya and the Hittites were pretty native to Anatolia. Their proto-Anatolian ancestors were even much older and live in Anatolia for thousands of years even long before people in the Steppes became civilized (by farming).
RenaRyuguu
08-01-2019, 08:09 PM
Some do some don't. For example the Kardashians don't. They are not real Armenian.
It says actually something about you than about anything else. It is you who is actually denying the scientific facts. You just can't accept that the region where you are from was not very import in the ancient world. Region where you are from was uncivilized and populated by very primitive hunter-gatherers, who were also cannibals. Later on some civilization came to the Steppes from Iran and people started to behave like humans in the Steppes.
Just an advise, educate yourself and go and study the ancient history. Maybe you will find out that it is actually not really smart trying to steal history from other regions.
Max Planck institute is unbiased, unlike wannabe Aryans and uneducated retard amteurs from the Eastern Europe.
Dude, why do you keep spreading your Kurdish supremacism here? You literally say Kurds are superior, everyone else is a primitive monkey. The same goes for Armenian nationalism. After all it is supposed to be a European cultural community. I've never said Slavs or Russians were Aryans for example, that's a false accusation. In fact I've always said here and in other places (such as right-wing comment sections) that no European group has ever identified as Aryan, that label is foreign to Europe. The Slavs called themselves Sloven, the Germanics called themselves deutsch, Romans - Roman, Greeks - Hellene, etc. However, I do believe that the Yamnaya culture and its later offshoots such as the Corded Ware, Sintashta, etc. were genetically European. They were not Middle Eastern, they were not South Asian, they were not East Asian. That has been proven by multiple studies. If modern Indians or Iranians are different from those pre-historic groups and presumably don't look like them, that's not a reason to twist the facts only in order to make someone feel good.
Kurds are considered non-civilized illiterate nomads by Arabs and Turks. Partisan Girl/Syrian Girl (popular political commentator) has said so for example (foreign nomads, not native to Syria).
Dude, why do you keep spreading your Kurdish supremacism here?No, I'm just countering the Eastern European fake supremacism.
Yamnaya was partly West Asian in nature. And not 100% European. This is a fact. The Anatolian Hittites predate Yamnaya and the proto-Anatolian IEans were just native to Anatolia. This is also a fact.
Btw, modern Europeans have for about 1/3 of Yamnaya ancestry. Some even less.
No, I'm just countering the Eastern European fake supremacism.
Yamnaya was partly West Asian in nature. And not 100% European. This is a fact. The Anatolian Hittites predate Yamnaya and the proto-Anatolian IEans were just native to Anatolia. This is also a fact.
Btw, modern Europeans have for about 1/3 of Yamnaya ancestry. Some even less.
Yes, they were around 55% Euro HG and 45% Caucasus HG but the Caucasus is not the Middle East or South Asia. The Corded Ware were more EHG than the Yamnaya (they were ~75% Yamnaya).
Kurds are considered non-civilized illiterate nomads by Arabs and Turks. Partisan Girl/Syrian Girl (popular political commentator) has said so for example (foreign nomads, not native to Syria).Lol, who is Partisan Girl/Syrian Girl? What an irony that Bedouin Syrian Arabs are calling Kurds uncivilized. It were actually the Aryan Kurds and Aryan Persians who brought civilization to the Arabs and the Arab world.
That Syrian Girl drank so much camel piss that camel piss comes out of her mouth every time she opens it.
Yes, they were around 55% Euro HG and 45% Caucasus HG but the Caucasus is not the Middle East or South Asia. The Corded Ware were more EHG than the Yamnaya (they were ~75% Yamnaya).No, DNA has shown that it came from the South of Caucasus. And it is not ancient Caucasus HG. But if you study it is actually similar to the Copper Age Iranian Plateau auDNA.
Corded Ware was not PIEan and has nothing to do with the PIEan. Corded Ware was just a local Indo-Europeanized culture. Nothing to do with the Hittites or the Myceneans or first stage Indo-Europeans.
Europeans are just a mixture between ancient WHG, Neolithic Anatolian Farmers and IEan Yamnaya folks. On average they are even less than 1/3 Yamnaya which was even a second stage PIEan.
Lol, who is Partisan Girl/Syrian Girl? What an irony that Bedouin Syrian Arabs are calling Kurds uncivilized. It were actually the Aryan Kurds and Aryan Persians who brought civilization to the Arabs and Arab world.
That Syrian Girl drank so much camel piss that camel piss comes out of her mouth every time she opens it.
Syria and the Levant in general had been a major center of civilization for centuries before Islam came to be, they weren't Bedouins. The Arab identity emerged after the rise of Islam and the Islamization of the Middle East and North Africa.
75 years ago Germans considered Slavic people subhumans and now Slavic people thin they are some kind of ubermensch, what an irony. No matter what kind of nonsense they are spreading and try to indoctrinate us with some kind Slavic fairytale shit. Slavic people were never Aryan, are not Aryan and never will be Aryan people
Syria and the Levant in general had been a major center of civilization for centuries before Islam came to be, they weren't Bedouins. The Arab identity emerged after the rise of Islam and the Islamization of the Middle East and North Africa.Aryan Medo-Persia ruled over the Levant for thousands of years.
Before Islam Levant was under the Aryan Medo-Persian Empire.
https://i.postimg.cc/6Q1SqLj7/Sasanian-Empire-621-A-D.jpg
75 years ago Germans considered Slavic people subhumans and now Slavic people some kind of ubermensch, what an irony. No matter what kind of nonsense they are spreading and try to indoctrinate us with some kind Slavic fairytale shit. Slavic people were never Aryan, are not Aryan and never will be Aryan people
I've never said so and no Apricity Slav to my knowledge says so either. Indo-European - yes, I am. I am R1a and speak an IE language. Aryan - no. I'm not a neo-pagan, nor am I a Slavic or Russian supremacist. In fact I think the Slavs were nothing before we were cultured by Byzantium and Christianized. No literature, no urban life. Just a bunch of Iron Age pagan forest dwellers.
Stop your Russophobia, your Kurdistan is even less developed than Bulgaria or Ukraine which are the poorest places in Europe. Fuck, it is not even a country!
MercifulServant
08-01-2019, 09:05 PM
They have some but not much.
MercifulServant
08-01-2019, 09:07 PM
75 years ago Germans considered Slavic people subhumans and now Slavic people thin they are some kind of ubermensch, what an irony. No matter what kind of nonsense they are spreading and try to indoctrinate us with some kind Slavic fairytale shit. Slavic people were never Aryan, are not Aryan and never will be Aryan people
Shut up sandnigger. We are whites and european genetically. Kurds arent aryan.
21993
08-01-2019, 09:08 PM
MS85 needs to take at least one day ban to cool off
I've never said so and no Apricity Slav to my knowledge says so either. Indo-European - yes, I am. I am R1a and speak an IE language. Aryan - no. I'm not a neo-pagan, nor am I a Slavic or Russian supremacist. In fact I think the Slavs were nothing before we were cultured by Byzantium and Christianized. No literature, no urban life. Just a bunch of Iron Age pagan forest dwellers.
Stop your Russophobia, your Kurdistan is even less developed than Bulgaria or Ukraine which are the poorest places in Europe. Fuck, it is not even a country!Ture, Slavic is considered an Indo-European language, which is also part of the Balto-Slavsic family
Indo-Europeans is not 1 ethnic group. Many different ethnic groups speak an Indo-European language and some Europeans don't have monopoly on this language group.
Armenians also speak an Indo-European language and many Armenians are R1b. Just like Yamnaya, since they found R1b in Yamnaya. Your R1a was not even part of the second stage original Yamnaya culture, but later on just Indo-Europeanised by the R1b Yamnaya people. Pffff.
The irony is that the Armeinians have similar R1b as Yamnaya (maybe even ancestral), while your R1a has nothing to do with the Yamnaya. And they speak an Indo-European language.
Go and fool your Turkish or Tatar moronic friends, because you both have found and understand each other and are actually very similar to each other. But you will never fool Kurds.
Again, you are talking nonsense. How can Kurds develop Kurdistan when there is a war in Kurdistan. Everything what we build, our enemies come and are breaking it down. First we need to defeat our enemies and then we can bring Kurdistan to its ancient glory.
Shut up sandnigger. We are whites and european genetically. Kurds arent aryan.Aryans were never whites and Europeans. Aryan Median Empire was located in Kurdistan and has always been West Asian in nature. Aryans of the Gutian/Mitanni Kingdom, the Aryan Median Empire were always genetically like Kurds from the very beginning.
MercifulServant
08-01-2019, 09:17 PM
Aryans were never whites and European. Aryan Median Empire was located in Kurdistan and has always been West Asian in nature.
No it wasnt. Kurds have nothing to do with aryans.
MS85 needs to take at least one day ban to cool offWhy? You can't change the history by just ignoring it, lol. History is history. It is in our culture, language, DNA, archaeology etc.
No it wasnt. Kurds have nothing to do with aryans.Yes it is. What was the Median Empire than? American?
If it is not Aryan, what is it then? Where is it located?
https://i.postimg.cc/J4FCG8s7/median-empire-map.gif
Aryan Medes destroyed the Assyrians around 612 BC and found the FIRST ever Aryan Empire known to people. Before them, Aryan Gutians destroyed the Akkadian Empire around 2135 BC. My people are the DIRECT descendants of those Aryan Gutians/Medes. Europeans have absolutely nothing to do with the Aryans and the Aryan Median Empire.
SharpFork
08-02-2019, 03:55 AM
It says actually something about you than about anything else. It is you who is actually denying the scientific facts. You just can't accept that the region where you are from was not very import in the ancient world. Region where you are from was uncivilized and populated by very primitive hunter-gatherers, who were also cannibals. Later on some civilization came to the Steppes from Iran and people started to behave like humans in the Steppes.
Just an advise, educate yourself and go and study the ancient history. Maybe you will find out that it is actually not really smart trying to steal history from other regions.
Max Planck institute is unbiased, unlike wannabe Aryans and uneducated retard amteurs from the Eastern Europe.
Literally "no u"-ing me, are you for real? Proto-Indo-Europeans are from the Steppes, genetics, linguistics, archaeology and everything converges towards that theory.
I'm not from Russia or Ukraine anyway, you on the other hand are a Kurd that has security issues from what we can see, no point in trying to paint me as someone with a vested interest in a specific theory over the other.
SharpFork
08-02-2019, 03:57 AM
Dude, why do you keep spreading your Kurdish supremacism here? You literally say Kurds are superior, everyone else is a primitive monkey. The same goes for Armenian nationalism. After all it is supposed to be a European cultural community. I've never said Slavs or Russians were Aryans for example, that's a false accusation. In fact I've always said here and in other places (such as right-wing comment sections) that no European group has ever identified as Aryan, that label is foreign to Europe. The Slavs called themselves Sloven, the Germanics called themselves deutsch, Romans - Roman, Greeks - Hellene, etc. However, I do believe that the Yamnaya culture and its later offshoots such as the Corded Ware, Sintashta, etc. were genetically European. They were not Middle Eastern, they were not South Asian, they were not East Asian. That has been proven by multiple studies. If modern Indians or Iranians are different from those pre-historic groups and presumably don't look like them, that's not a reason to twist the facts only in order to make someone feel good.
I guess the CHG dna the Yamnaya had and brought around makes those people honorary Kurds/Armenians, lol
RenaRyuguu
08-02-2019, 03:57 AM
I think some do some don't idk much about this
happycow
08-02-2019, 04:04 AM
kurds and armenians invented the modern world. hell they invented the universe. The truest kangz.
Literally "no u"-ing me, are you for real? Proto-Indo-Europeans are from the Steppes, genetics, linguistics, archaeology and everything converges towards that theory.
I'm not from Russia or Ukraine anyway, you on the other hand are a Kurd that has security issues from what we can see, no point in trying to paint me as someone with a vested interest in a specific theory over the other.You are ignoring the scientific facts. It is that simple. The Armenian Plateau Model of Vyacheslav Ivanov & Georgian Tamaz V. Gamkrelidze has been popular among the most renowned academics from the 90ties and that model never left.
Genetics (Hittites, Copper Age Iranian auDNA in the Steppes), archaeology (metallurgy/arsenical bronze), linguistics (Hittites, ergativity) points toward South Caucasus/Iranian Plateau.
What the hell do you mean with the 'security issue'. I have been interested in this topic for the last 20 years and I'm just pointing out what academics are saying. I'm here to distinguish scientific facts from the wishful thinking.
For the Russian speakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6HEzHJR9tw
kurds and armenians invented the modern world. hell they invented the universe. The truest kangz.Not the Kurds, but Kurdish angel Tause Melek created the universe. My 7000 years old Aryan religion was the first one that mentioned the Big Bang 7000 years ago!!!
The Yazidi consider Tawûsê Melek an emanation of God and a good, benevolent angel and leader of the archangels, who was entrusted to take care of the world after he passed a test and created the cosmos from the Cosmic egg.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melek_Taus
https://i.postimg.cc/7Zk6KHtK/f669933ef1a225754fc6a6da29f5b64e.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/T3JPSzZf/infraredsky-cobe-big.jpg
I guess the CHG dna the Yamnaya had and brought around makes those people honorary Kurds/Armenians, lolWithout Copper Age Iranian Plateau DNA, folks in the Steppes would still be the uncivilized cannibals.
happycow
08-02-2019, 04:25 AM
Not the Kurds, but Kurdish angel Tause Melek created the universe. My 7000 years old Aryan religion was the first one that mentioned the Big Bang 7000 years ago!!!
The Yazidi consider Tawûsê Melek an emanation of God and a good, benevolent angel and leader of the archangels, who was entrusted to take care of the world after he passed a test and created the cosmos from the Cosmic egg.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melek_Taus
https://i.postimg.cc/7Zk6KHtK/f669933ef1a225754fc6a6da29f5b64e.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/T3JPSzZf/infraredsky-cobe-big.jpg
lol
SharpFork
08-02-2019, 04:30 AM
You are ignoring the scientific facts. It is that simple. The Armenian Plateau Model of Vyacheslav Ivanov & Georgian Tamaz V. Gamkrelidze has been popular among the most renowned academics from the 90ties and that model never left.
Genetics (Hittites, Copper Age Iranian auDNA in the Steppes), archaeology (metallurgy/arsenical bronze), linguistics (Hittites, ergativity) points toward South Caucasus/Iranian Plateau.
What the hell do you mean with the 'security issue'. I have been interested in this topic for the last 20 years and I'm just pointing out what academics are saying. I'm here to distinguish scientific facts from the wishful thinking.
For the Russian speakers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6HEzHJR9tw
Can you actually lay down the arguments? Because insofar as genetics are concerned, the Steppe theory is extremely solid.
more about the Hittites and proto-IEans who predate the second stage Yamnata culture from the LEGENDARY academic Vyacheslav Ivanov
For the Russian speakers who are confused and need a guideline:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRZwGtkZNyE
Can you actually lay down the arguments? Because insofar as genetics are concerned, the Steppe theory is extremely solid.You didn't read the last academic paper on Yamnaya?
The insight that the Caucasus mountains served not only as a corridor for the spread of CHG/Neolithic Iranian ancestry but also for later gene-flow from the south also has a bearing on the postulated homelands of Proto-Indo-European (PIE) languages and documented gene-flows that could have carried a consecutive spread of both across West Eurasia. Perceiving the Caucasus as an occasional bridge rather than a strict border during the Eneolithic and Bronze Age opens up the possibility of a homeland of PIE south of the Caucasus, which itself provides a parsimonious explanation for an early branching off of Anatolian languages. Geographically this would also work for Armenian and Greek, for which genetic data also supports an eastern influence from Anatolia or the southern Caucasus.
Wang, C. C., Reinhold, S. R., Kalmykov, A., Wissgott, A., Brandt, G., Jeong, C., ... & Mallick, S. (2018). The genetic prehistory of the Greater Caucasus. bioRxiv, 322347. https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/322347v1
Also the Hittites (and proto-Anatolians in general) who PRE-DATE second stage PIEan Yamnaya were purely Western Asian in nature and native to Anatolia.
de Barros Damgaard, P., Martiniano, R., Kamm, J., Moreno-Mayar, J. V., Kroonen, G., Peyrot, M., ... & Zaibert, V. (2018). The first horse herders and the impact of early Bronze Age steppe expansions into Asia. Science, 360(6396), eaar7711. https://www.academia.edu/36669320/The_First_Horse_Herders_and_the_Impact_of_Early_Br onze_Age_Steppe_Expansions_into_Asia_including_sup plementary_materials_arch._and_linguistic_backgrou nd_papers_
Do you actually understand what I'm talking about?
kurds and armenians invented the modern world. hell they invented the universe. The truest kangz.
I don’t think MS85 is saying that kurds invented the modern world. I think he is saying that whereas there were famous civilizations in Mesopotamia, Egypt, and Mohenjo Daro, and those people were (civilized) the steppes weren’t civilized and they were just a bunch of monkeys that were killing and raping each other and ancient Iranians made them civilized human beings and the name Iran stands for Aryan.
Am I right MS85 ?
I don’t think MS85 is saying that kurds invented the modern world. I think he is saying that whereas there were famous civilizations in Mesopotamia, Egypt, and Mohenjo Daro, and those people were (civilized) the steppes weren’t civilized and they were just a bunch of monkeys that were killing and raping each other and ancient Iranians made them civilized human beings and the name Iran stands for Aryan.
Am I right MS85 ?Lol. It is not about the raping and killing. I'm just tired of insecure people who are trying to steal history of other people and try to make themselves feel good or special.
Farming was spread from the Mesopotamia. People in the Steppes were hunter/gatherers before farming spread into the rest of the word. The first cities, the first civil laws, all emerged in the Northern Mesopotamia. Also, what about the metallurgy? The first copper, bronze and iron weapons were made in the Northern Mesopotamia.
Some people believe that Indo-European folks spread agriculture, but some believe Indo-European people were successful because of the metallurgy, since their 'metal' weapons were superior to the stone age weapons. Weapons used by Corded Ware folks were mostly from the Stone Age.
SharpFork
08-02-2019, 04:59 AM
You didn't read the last academic paper on Yamnaya?
The insight that the Caucasus mountains served not only as a corridor for the spread of CHG/Neolithic Iranian ancestry but also for later gene-flow from the south also has a bearing on the postulated homelands of Proto-Indo-European (PIE) languages and documented gene-flows that could have carried a consecutive spread of both across West Eurasia. Perceiving the Caucasus as an occasional bridge rather than a strict border during the Eneolithic and Bronze Age opens up the possibility of a homeland of PIE south of the Caucasus, which itself provides a parsimonious explanation for an early branching off of Anatolian languages. Geographically this would also work for Armenian and Greek, for which genetic data also supports an eastern influence from Anatolia or the southern Caucasus.
Wang, C. C., Reinhold, S. R., Kalmykov, A., Wissgott, A., Brandt, G., Jeong, C., ... & Mallick, S. (2018). The genetic prehistory of the Greater Caucasus. bioRxiv, 322347. https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/322347v1
Also the Hittites (and proto-Anatolians in general) who PRE-DATE second stage PIEan Yamnaya were purely Western Asian in nature and native to Anatolia.
de Barros Damgaard, P., Martiniano, R., Kamm, J., Moreno-Mayar, J. V., Kroonen, G., Peyrot, M., ... & Zaibert, V. (2018). The first horse herders and the impact of early Bronze Age steppe expansions into Asia. Science, 360(6396), eaar7711. https://www.academia.edu/36669320/The_First_Horse_Herders_and_the_Impact_of_Early_Br onze_Age_Steppe_Expansions_into_Asia_including_sup plementary_materials_arch._and_linguistic_backgrou nd_papers_
Do you actually understand what I'm talking about?
The genetic argument makes no sense, the Maykop people have completely different Y-dna and mtDNA haplogroups compared to the Yamnaya people, archaeological evidence suggests relative less contact. Many of the claims made there would fit within a Steppe theory and a migration through the Caucasus as well, which is why the paper itself doesn't really push that theory, because it's far from being valid as of now, let alone solid.
Also the Yamnaya ended centuries before the first evidence of Hittites, what the heck are you saying?
SharpFork
08-02-2019, 05:00 AM
Lol. It is not about the raping and killing. I'm just tired of insecure people who are trying to steal history of other people and try to make themselves feel good or special.
Farming was spread from the Mesopotamia. People in the Steppes were hunter/gatherers before farming spread into the rest of the word. The first cities, the first civil laws, all emerged in the Northern Mesopotamia. Also, what about the metallurgy? The first copper, bronze and iron weapons were made in the Northern Mesopotamia.
Some people believe that Indo-European folks spread agriculture, but some believe Indo-European people were successful because of the metallurgy, since their 'metal' weapons were superior to the stone age weapons. Weapons used by Corded Ware folks were mostly from the Stone Age.
Are Sumerian Kurds too? Because even in your Gutian-Kassite world those people were barbarians and backwards to the Mesopotamians.
Edit: Nobody believes IE people spread agriculture or even metal weapons, if anything it's all about horses, which evidence suggest were domesticated aroung that region, not greater Kurdistan.
SharpFork
08-02-2019, 05:24 AM
BTW this is an addition and peer review of the biorxiv article posted:
https://static-content.springer.com/esm/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41467-018-08220-8/MediaObjects/41467_2018_8220_MOESM2_ESM.pdf
(Question) This hypothesis about the Caucasus source of Proto-Indo-European has been advanced also for slightly other reasons by David Reich and Kristian Kristiansen, so I think it should be elaborated here by the authors and they should marshall their new results to add whatever support they can. However, this hypothesis should rest on showing a sustained admixture between Maikop and Yamnaya to serve as a bridge to Yamnaya from the Caucasus (because the authors accept Yamnaya as connected to later PIE.) It is difficult to see in the results presented here a sustained gene flow from Maikop into Yamnaya, that would sustain this hypothesis. On lines 410 and 432 the authors preferred to see the Anatolian Farmer genes that appeared in Yamnaya as flowing from southeastern Europe, with a 20% WHG component, not from Maikop, without the WHG component. If most of the c. 15% Anatolian Farmer found in Yamnaya came from the west, it leaves very little room for gene flow into Yamnaya from Maikop. If the3% WHG that makes the difference between a western and Caucasian source of Anatolian Farmer is strongly supported by their data, that makes a Caucasian origin of PIE lesslikely because it reduces gene flow from Maikop into the steppes. In fact it suggests that very little south-to-north gene flow occurred during the Maikop period (except into 2 individuals from a distinct, small, local genetic group different from Maikop and Yamnaya). This is puzzling and unexpected, but also it fails to support the bridge that seems to be needed.
Reply: We’re afraid that this might be a misunderstanding. There is indeed very limited gene flow between the Caucasus and the steppe groups (apart from the examples highlighted). However, we have based our PIE-related speculations on the observationthat the CHG/Iranian (green) ancestry component is increasing already during theEneolithic north of the Caucasus. Thisled us to propose that this might be the actual ‘tracer dye’of an earlyPIEspread, which couldthen also accommodate the spread of PIE south of the mountain range where thisancestry component also rises in frequency resulting ina relatively homogeniseddual ancestry (Anatolian + Iranian farming-related ancestry) in Chalcolithic times (see also brown arrow in Figure 2).
To emphasise our point, we rephrased the start of the paragraph as follows:“The insight that the Caucasus mountains served as a corridor for the spread of CHG ancestry north but also for subtle later gene-flow from the south allows speculations on the postulated homelands of Proto-Indo-European (PIE) languages and documented gene-flows that could have carried a consecutive spread of both across West Eurasia20, 68. This also opens up the possibility of a homeland of PIE south of the Caucasus, whichitself offers a parsimonious explanation for an early branching off of Anatolian languages, as shown on many PIE tree topologies69, 70, 71, 72.”
The genetic argument is so weak and the authors admit it's wild speculations, there was already CHG in the Steppe and it was a very small increase, apparently a couple of people alone made the entire Yamnaya culture IE-speaking? If that'S the argument then the Steppe peopel could have made the Hittite IE speaking without much demographic input too.
The genetic argument makes no sense, the Maykop people have completely different Y-dna and mtDNA haplogroups compared to the Yamnaya people, archaeological evidence suggests relative less contact. Many of the claims made there would fit within a Steppe theory and a migration through the Caucasus as well, which is why the paper itself doesn't really push that theory, because it's far from being valid as of now, let alone solid.
Also the Yamnaya ended centuries before the first evidence of Hittites, what the heck are you saying?
The genetic argument makes no sense, the Maykop people have completely different Y-dna and mtDNA haplogroups compared to the Yamnaya people, archaeological evidence suggests relative less contact. Many of the claims made there would fit within a Steppe theory and a migration through the Caucasus as well, which is why the paper itself doesn't really push that theory, because it's far from being valid as of now, let alone solid.
Also the Yamnaya ended centuries before the first evidence of Hittites, what the heck are you saying?No, you just don't read the articles. Can you read academic papers?? The Hittites are older than Yamnaya. Some names found in Northern Syrian predate Yamnaya
https://i.postimg.cc/VkjtqNTw/a.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/hvzzf4xH/b.jpg
https://imgur.com/pfz5pKn
de Barros Damgaard, P., Martiniano, R., Kamm, J., Moreno-Mayar, J. V., Kroonen, G., Peyrot, M., ... & Zaibert, V. (2018). The first horse herders and the impact of early Bronze Age steppe expansions into Asia. Science, 360(6396), eaar7711.
https://www.academia.edu/36669320/The_First_Horse_Herders_and_the_Impact_of_Early_Br onze_Age_Steppe_Expansions_into_Asia_including_sup plementary_materials_arch._and_linguistic_backgrou nd_papers_[/QUOTE]
Archaeology points to West Asia big time. Metallurgy is from West Asia, even the oldest Kurgans were found in West Asia
Are Sumerian Kurds too? Because even in your Gutian-Kassite world those people were barbarians and backwards to the Mesopotamians.
Edit: Nobody believes IE people spread agriculture or even metal weapons, if anything it's all about horses, which evidence suggest were domesticated aroung that region, not greater Kurdistan.
You don't even understand what you are talking about. Gutians/Kassites destroyed Babylon. And no, Southern Uruk Sumerians were not Kurds.
Do you know history Because you sound very ignorant and it is very, very difficult to communicate with you. Spread agriculture metallurgy ahs everything to do with the PIEans. Horses made it easier for them to colonize Europe. But the FIRST PIEans were people of the metallurgy. It is because of metallurgy from Iran ,they had advantage above people in Europe,
The genetic argument is so weak and the authors admit it's wild speculations, there was already CHG in the Steppe and it was a very small increase, apparently a couple of people alone made the entire Yamnaya culture IE-speaking? If that'S the argument then the Steppe peopel could have made the Hittite IE speaking without much demographic input too.No, just some advanced first stage PIEan entered Yamnaya and Indo-Europeanized that whole Yamnaya Horizon. it was not a mass replacement of people. First stage PIEans entered Yamnaya and mixed with the local people. They gave rise to the second stage PIEan people. The migration from South Caucasus into Yamnaya has been detected and can't be ignored. There was actually a historic migration of the high advanced first stage PIEan metallurgy people from Southern Caucasus that penetrated Yamnaya Horizon.
Once again, just solve the Hittites puzzle, since proto-Anatolian and the Hittites predate Yamnaya and they found out that the Hittites were indigenous Anatolian people, then we can argue much further.
SharpFork
08-03-2019, 11:38 AM
No, just some advanced first stage PIEan entered Yamnaya and Indo-Europeanized that whole Yamnaya Horizon. it was not a mass replacement of people. First stage PIEans entered Yamnaya and mixed with the local people. They gave rise to the second stage PIEan people. The migration from South Caucasus into Yamnaya has been detected and can't be ignored. There was actually a historic migration of the high advanced first stage PIEan metallurgy people from Southern Caucasus that penetrated Yamnaya Horizon.
Once again, just solve the Hittites puzzle, since proto-Anatolian and the Hittites predate Yamnaya and they found out that the Hittites were indigenous Anatolian people, then we can argue much further.
Are you unable to read? The authors of the paper you provided say there was no relevant migration from the Caucasus in the Maykop period.
Hittite DO NOT predate Yamnaya.
Are you unable to read? The authors of the paper you provided say there was no relevant migration from the Caucasus in the Maykop period.
Hittite DO NOT predate Yamnaya.Nevertheless there was a migration from West Asia into Yamnya. It is possible that it was an 'elite' migration that just Indo-Europeanized Uralic steppes people.
Yamnaya was the FIRST IEan culture in the Steppes. Before Yamnya people in the Steppes spoke most likely Uralic languages.
Yamnaya dates back from 3300 BC.
According to the scientific evidence Anatolian IEan was already spoke by 3700 BC.
Just try to solve this Hittites puzzle, that we can continue to talk about ancient history. I real enjoy this discussion
Just try to solve this Hittites puzzle, that we can continue to talk about ancient history. I real enjoy this discussion
I asked Arhat to come and join this debate. He is quite knowledgeable about the Indo-European stuff, in fact he's a son of Aryans himself (1/4 Afghan, R1a-Z93, and 3/4 Southern Russian/Ukrainian which is literally a Steppe region). Looks Aryan too, dolichocephalic with light pigmentation. Not cherno zhopy, haha :cool:
I hope he will BTFO you. No disrespect, I actually like you as a member somehow. Just happen to not agree with you.
I asked Arhat to come and join this debate. He is quite knowledgeable about the Indo-European stuff, in fact he's a son of Aryans himself (1/4 Afghan, R1a-Z93, and 3/4 Southern Russian/Ukrainian which is literally a Steppe region). Looks Aryan too, dolichocephalic with light pigmentation. Not cherno zhopy, haha :cool:
I hope he will BTFO you. No disrespect, I actually like you as a member somehow. Just happen to not agree with you.Why don't you try? What do you know about the Hittites?
I hope that 'Arhat' guy (your secret weapon) has some basic education (среднее образование), otherwise it will be very difficult for me to discuss with him. Ancestry of that 'Arhat' guy doesn't look 'Aryan' to me. If his 1/4 Afghan part is Tajik than he can be somehow distantly connected to the real so called Umman Manda 'Aryans'/Western Iranians of Gutium/Media etc. Otherwise, just another lost soul..
Why don't you try? What do you know about the Hittites?
I hope that 'Arhat' guy (your secret weapon) has some basic education (среднее образование), otherwise it will be very difficult for me to discuss with him. Ancestry of that 'Arhat' guy doesn't look 'Aryan' to me. If his 1/4 Afghan part is Tajik than he can be somehow distantly connected to the real so called Umman Manda 'Aryans'/Western Iranians of Gutium/Media etc. Otherwise, just another lost soul..
I am not a historian, I just like it when Indians and Kurds get pissed off at someone saying the proto-Indo-Aryans were white which they were judging by ancient DNA findings. Read Davidski's post "On the Doorsteps of India" in which he commented on the Kashkarchi samples from the Ferghana valley (a shitload of Baltic and North Atlantic). You guys need to accept the fact that you do NOT look like those ancient people, it's not necessarily good or bad, it's just a fact. I'm not Iranian or anything but probably look more similar to them than any Indian or Kurd (I have pale skin, gray-blue eyes and light brown hair, I pass easily from Tallinn all the way to Bratislava).
Looks Aryan too, dolichocephalic with light pigmentation. Not cherno zhopy, haha :cool:Tawarish, everything is all right, but to be an Aryan (Umman-manda/West Iranian) he needs to score at least 2/3 (or 66%) Kurdish/Aryan on this calculator: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?296037-YourDNAPortal-Post-Kurdish-K10-nmonte-oracles&p=6163902#post6163902
Everything below 2/3 is too much mixed for me and is getting to complicated.
Tawarish, everything is all right, but to be an Aryan (Umman-manda/West Iranian) he needs to score at least 2/3 (or 66%) Kurdish/Aryan on this calculator: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?296037-YourDNAPortal-Post-Kurdish-K10-nmonte-oracles&p=6163902#post6163902
Everything below 2/3 is too much mixed for me and is getting to complicated.
He is a Sintashta/Andronovo type of Aryan (chariot rider from Rigveda). His results:
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 Baltic 40.59
2 North_Atlantic 22.84
3 West_Asian 12.15
4 East_Med 8.41
5 South_Asian 7.64
6 West_Med 3.21
7 East_Asian 1.98
8 Siberian 1.55
9 Amerindian 1.02
10 Sub-Saharan 0.56
11 Oceanian 0.05
Single Population Sharing:
# Population (source) Distance
1 Ukrainian_Belgorod 10.5
2 Southwest_Russian 11.22
3 Ukrainian_Lviv 12.02
4 Ukrainian 12.53
5 South_Polish 12.8
6 Russian_Smolensk 13.35
7 Kargopol_Russian 13.64
8 Erzya 13.79
9 Croatian 13.82
10 Polish 14.01
11 Moldavian 14.07
12 Estonian_Polish 14.17
13 Belorussian 14.48
14 Hungarian 16.34
15 Tatar 17.04
16 Lithuanian 17.35
17 Finnish 17.95
18 Estonian 17.99
19 East_Finnish 18.08
20 Southwest_Finnish 19.25
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 75% Belorussian + 25% Afghan_Pashtun @ 4.36
2 82.2% Southwest_Russian + 17.8% Pathan @ 4.45
3 84.3% Southwest_Russian + 15.7% Sindhi @ 4.53
4 83.4% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 16.6% Pathan @ 4.54
5 80.2% Southwest_Russian + 19.8% Afghan_Pashtun @ 4.58
6 85.4% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 14.6% Sindhi @ 4.6
7 79.8% Belorussian + 20.2% Makrani @ 4.69
8 82.5% Southwest_Russian + 17.5% Burusho @ 4.71
9 82.5% Southwest_Russian + 17.5% Punjabi_Jat @ 4.73
10 70.7% Lithuanian + 29.3% Turkmen @ 4.73
11 83.7% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 16.3% Burusho @ 4.75
12 83.7% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 16.3% Punjabi_Jat @ 4.81
13 82.3% Southwest_Russian + 17.7% Kalash @ 4.82
14 81.6% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 18.4% Afghan_Pashtun @ 4.83
15 77.7% Belorussian + 22.3% Pathan @ 4.89
16 75.7% Estonian_Polish + 24.3% Afghan_Pashtun @ 4.92
17 84.4% Southwest_Russian + 15.6% Makrani @ 5.01
18 86.3% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 13.7% Gujarati @ 5.02
19 74.6% Belorussian + 25.4% Afghan_Tadjik @ 5.03
20 80.6% Belorussian + 19.4% Brahui @ 5.08
Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 North_European 48.71
2 Atlantic_Med 16.43
3 Caucasus 12.94
4 Gedrosia 11.64
5 South_Asian 5.52
6 East_Asian 2.14
7 Siberian 1.04
8 Southeast_Asian 0.43
9 Sub_Saharan 0.24
10 East_African 0.08
Using 1 population approximation:
1 Hungarians_Behar @ 14.659948
2 German_Dodecad @ 18.457436
3 Ukranians_Yunusbayev @ 18.703526
4 Mordovians_Yunusbayev @ 19.067968
5 Polish_Dodecad @ 19.617638
6 Mixed_Slav_Dodecad @ 19.700289
7 Russian_Dodecad @ 21.227322
8 Russian_HGDP @ 21.591064
9 Russian_B_Behar @ 22.101917
10 Swedish_Dodecad @ 22.927769
11 Belorussian_Behar @ 23.117712
12 Chuvashs_Behar @ 23.530123
13 Mixed_Germanic_Dodecad @ 24.196569
14 Romanians_Behar @ 24.243156
15 Dutch_Dodecad @ 25.087145
16 Norwegian_Dodecad @ 25.133570
17 Bulgarian_Dodecad @ 25.891327
18 Bulgarians_Yunusbayev @ 27.135490
19 CEU30_1000Genomes @ 27.762983
20 English_Dodecad @ 28.007870
Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Lithuanians_Behar +50% Tajiks_Yunusbayev @ 9.843885
Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Belorussian_Behar +25% Burusho_HGDP +25% Hungarians_Behar @ 2.156009
Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Belorussian_Behar + Burusho_HGDP + Hungarians_Behar + Polish_Dodecad @ 1.865192
2 Belorussian_Behar + Belorussian_Behar + Burusho_HGDP + Hungarians_Behar @ 2.156009
3 Belorussian_Behar + Burusho_HGDP + Hungarians_Behar + Mixed_Slav_Dodecad @ 2.245986
4 Burusho_HGDP + Hungarians_Behar + Lithuanian_Dodecad + Polish_Dodecad @ 2.258293
5 Belorussian_Behar + Belorussian_Behar + Burusho_HGDP + German_Dodecad @ 2.265772
6 Belorussian_Behar + Burusho_HGDP + German_Dodecad + Russian_B_Behar @ 2.273150
7 Belorussian_Behar + Burusho_HGDP + German_Dodecad + Ukranians_Yunusbayev @ 2.289506
8 Burusho_HGDP + Hungarians_Behar + Polish_Dodecad + Russian_B_Behar @ 2.295442
9 Burusho_HGDP + Lithuanians_Behar + Lithuanians_Behar + N_Italian_Dodecad @ 2.344572
10 Burusho_HGDP + Hungarians_Behar + Polish_Dodecad + Russian_Dodecad @ 2.463454
11 Belorussian_Behar + Burusho_HGDP + German_Dodecad + Mixed_Slav_Dodecad @ 2.479336
12 Burusho_HGDP + Hungarians_Behar + Mixed_Slav_Dodecad + Polish_Dodecad @ 2.492965
13 Burusho_HGDP + German_Dodecad + Lithuanian_Dodecad + Ukranians_Yunusbayev @ 2.520648
14 Burusho_HGDP + German_Dodecad + Russian_B_Behar + Ukranians_Yunusbayev @ 2.573236
15 Belorussian_Behar + German_Dodecad + Pathan_HGDP + Russian_B_Behar @ 2.588892
16 Belorussian_Behar + Burusho_HGDP + Hungarians_Behar + Ukranians_Yunusbayev @ 2.654776
17 Burusho_HGDP + German_Dodecad + Mixed_Slav_Dodecad + Russian_B_Behar @ 2.659925
18 Burusho_HGDP + Hungarians_Behar + Mixed_Slav_Dodecad + Mixed_Slav_Dodecad @ 2.699310
19 German_Dodecad + Pathan_HGDP + Russian_B_Behar + Russian_B_Behar @ 2.709089
20 Burusho_HGDP + Hungarians_Behar + Lithuanian_Dodecad + Ukranians_Yunusbayev @ 2.709494
In the Bredski district, Chelyabinsk oblast, where the Sintashta culture was excavated, some Russian neo-pagans and, you can say, Neo-Nazis gather, bring swastikas and other crap and praise Aryan gods, lol xD
I am not a historian, I just like it when Indians and Kurds get pissed off at someone saying the proto-Indo-Aryans were white which they were judging by ancient DNA findings. Read Davidski's post "On the Doorsteps of India" in which he commented on the Kashkarchi samples from the Ferghana valley (a shitload of Baltic and North Atlantic). You guys need to accept the fact that you do NOT look like those ancient people, it's not necessarily good or bad, it's just a fact. I'm not Iranian or anything but probably look more similar to them than any Indian or Kurd (I have pale skin, gray-blue eyes and light brown hair, I pass easily from Tallinn all the way to Bratislava).Well, you are not an historian that's why you are talking nonsense about this topic.
And Kurds are not Indo-ARYAN. Kurds are simply Iranian and more precisely, Western Iranians. And the real Aryans were the ancient Medes who were themselves also Northwest Iranian people
https://i.postimg.cc/Y2xpqPdq/parthians-medes.jpg
You are not a historian and neither the guys you mention. People you mention know nothing about Aryan/West Iranian history. Most likely they are just morons
He is a Sintashta/Andronovo type of Aryan (chariot rider from Rigveda).Sintashta was not Aryan at all. It was an Uralic culture and folks there spoke most likely an Mongoloid/Uralic language.
True Aryans were the Northwestern Iranian Aryan Medes who called themselves and called by all others Aryans
Ayetooey
08-03-2019, 06:14 PM
http://giphygifs.s3.amazonaws.com/media/RHiD0K65NxxLO/giphy.gif
In Avesta and Persian literature
Unlike the several meanings connected with ārya- in Old Indo-Aryan, the Old Persian term only has an ethnic meaning. That is in contrast to Indo-Aryan usage, in which several secondary meanings evolved, the meaning of ar- as a self-identifier is preserved in Iranian usage, hence the word "Iran". The airya meant "Iranian", and Iranian anairya meant and means "non-Iranian". Arya may also be found as an ethnonym in Iranian languages, e.g., Alan and Persian Iran and Ossetian Ir/Iron[41] The name is itself equivalent to Aryan, where Iran means "land of the Aryans," and has been in use since Sassanid times.
The Avesta clearly uses airya/airyan as an ethnic name (Vd. 1; Yt. 13.143-44, etc.), where it appears in expressions such as airyāfi; daiŋˊhāvō "Iranian lands, peoples", airyō.šayanəm "land inhabited by Iranians", and airyanəm vaējō vaŋhuyāfi; dāityayāfi; "Iranian stretch of the good Dāityā", the river Oxus, the modern Āmū Daryā.[40] Old Persian sources also use this term for Iranians. Old Persian which is a testament to the antiquity of the Persian language and which is related to most of the languages/dialects spoken in Iran including modern Persian, the Kurdish languages, Balochi, and Gilaki makes it clear that Iranians referred to themselves as Arya.
The term "Airya/Airyan" appears in the royal Old Persian inscriptions in three different contexts:
As the name of the language of the Old Persian version of the inscription of Darius I in Behistun
As the ethnic background of Darius I in inscriptions at Naqsh-e-Rostam and Susa (Dna, Dse) and Xerxes I in the inscription from Persepolis (Xph)
As the definition of the God of the Aryans, Ahura Mazdā, in the Elamite language version of the Behistun inscription.
For example in the Dna and Dse Darius and Xerxes describe themselves as "An Achaemenian, A Persian son of a Persian and an Aryan, of Aryan stock". Although Darius the Great called his language the Aryan language, modern scholars refer to it as Old Persian[47] because it is the ancestor of modern Persian language.
The Old Persian and Avestan evidence is confirmed by the Greek sources.[40] Herodotus in his Histories remarks about the Iranian Medes that: "These Medes were called anciently by all people Arians; " (7.62).In Armenian sources, the Parthians, Medes and Persians are collectively referred to as Aryans. Eudemus of Rhodes apud Damascius (Dubitationes et solutiones in Platonis Parmenidem 125 bis) refers to "the Magi and all those of Iranian (áreion) lineage"; Diodorus Siculus (1.94.2) considers Zoroaster (Zathraustēs) as one of the Arianoi.
Strabo, in his Geography, mentions the unity of Medes, Persians, Bactrians and Sogdians:
The name of Ariana is further extended to a part of Persia and of Media, as also to the Bactrians and Sogdians on the north; for these speak approximately the same language, with but slight variations.
— Geography, 15.8
The trilingual inscription erected by Shapur's command gives us a more clear description. The languages used are Parthian, Middle Persian and Greek. In Greek the inscription says: "ego ... tou Arianon ethnous despotes eimi" which translates to "I am the king of the Aryans". In the Middle Persian Shapour says: "I am the Lord of the EranShahr" and in Parthian he says: "I am the Lord of AryanShahr".
The Bactrian language (a Middle Iranian language) inscription of Kanishka the Great, the founder of the Kushan Empire at Rabatak, which was discovered in 1993 in an unexcavated site in the Afghanistan province of Baghlan, clearly refers to this Eastern Iranian language as Arya.[51][52] In the post-Islamic era one can still see a clear usage of the term Aryan (Iran) in the work of the 10th-century historian Hamzah al-Isfahani. In his famous book "The History of Prophets and Kings", al-Isfahani writes, "Aryan which is also called Pars is in the middle of these countries and these six countries surround it because the South East is in the hands China, the North of the Turks, the middle South is India, the middle North is Rome, and the South West and the North West is the Sudan and Berber lands". All this evidence shows that the name arya "Iranian" was a collective definition, denoting peoples (Geiger, pp. 167 f.; Schmitt, 1978, p. 31) who were aware of belonging to the one ethnic stock, speaking a common language, and having a religious tradition that centered on the cult of Ahura Mazdā.
In Iranian languages, the original self-identifier lives on in ethnic names like "Alans", "Iron". Similarly, The word Iran is the Persian word for land/place of the Aryan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan
Greek scholars during antiquity would base ethnological conclusions on Greek legends and the similarity of names. According to the Histories of Herodotus (440 BC): The Medes were formerly called by everyone Arians, but when the Colchian woman Medea came from Athens to the Arians, they changed their name, like the Persians [did after Perses, son of Perseus and Andromeda]. This is the Medes' own account of themselves.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medes
And Kurds are not Indo-ARYAN. Kurds are simply Iranian and more precisely, Western Iranians. And the real Aryans were the ancient Medes who were themselves also Northwest Iranian people
I just don't think it's true. The term Aryan is still in use in India and they had nothing to with the Medes. Pahli, a Kurdish member, is a proud Kurd but he also admits that his people are just assimilated natives of Iran (Elamite type of people).
The Median tribe of mystics, the legendary MAGI, were the uber Aryans. Tell me what do they as Northwest Iranian speaking people have to do with some Uralic cultures in the Steppes?
I just don't think it's true. The term Aryan is still in use in India and they had nothing to with the Medes. Pahli, a Kurdish member, is a proud Kurd but he also admits that his people are just assimilated natives of Iran (Elamite type of people).What the hell? What are you taling about? The Medes called themselves Aryans. The Persian kings called themselves Aryans. Everybody in the region called the West Iranic people Aryans or Umman-manda.
You said you are not a historian, so don't talk nonsense. And don't act like you know something about a topic you don't understand and never studied.
Armenian Bishop
08-03-2019, 06:22 PM
Literally "no u"-ing me, are you for real? Proto-Indo-Europeans are from the Steppes, genetics, linguistics, archaeology and everything converges towards that theory.
I'm not from Russia or Ukraine anyway, you on the other hand are a Kurd that has security issues from what we can see, no point in trying to paint me as someone with a vested interest in a specific theory over the other.
Your profile ethnicity information is as follows: (1) East Slavic; (2) Germanic; (3) Indo-Aryan. East Slavic People include Russia and the Ukraine. Please Explain.
Medians as Aryans
H.7.62: "The Medes had exactly the same equipment as the Persians; and indeed the dress common to both is not so much Persian as Median. They had for commander Tigranes, of the race of the Achaemenids. These (Medes & Persians) were called anciently by all people Aryans."
S.15.2.8 "The name of Aryana (the greater Aryan nation) is further extended to a part of Persia and of Media, as also to the Bactrians and Sogdians on the north; for these speak the same language with only slight variations." It is interesting to note that ancient Aryana lands included part of modern Media and Persia. Examining the sixteen Aryan nations listed in the Vendidad, we note that Rai/Ray/Ragha that was part of modern Media was one of the original sixteen Vendidad nations. Similarly, parts of eastern Persia could have been part of old Sistan/Haetumant and Aria/Haroyu.
When Media became an empire, the extent of the empire covered the traditional Aryan lands of the Avesta - from Sugd (Sogdiana), Pamirs and Upper Indus in the east to Ranghaya (upper Tigris-Euphrates basin) in the west. The Medes had in effect become the dominant kingdom in the federation of Aryan kingdoms - Aryana. In the process, the king of the Medes became a king of kings of Aryana, land of the Aryans.
https://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/medians/index.htm#aryans
Your profile ethnicity information is as follows: (1) East Slavic; (2) Germanic; (3) Indo-Aryan. East Slavic People include Russia and the Ukraine. Please Explain.
Maybe he is a German repatriate from the former Soviet Union, a lot of them are mixed with Russians.
Your profile ethnicity information is as follows: (1) East Slavic; (2) Germanic; (3) Indo-Aryan. East Slavic People include Russia and the Ukraine. Please Explain.He 'thinks' that he is an 'Aryan', hahahaha. Never seen such a fake wannabe Aryans as on this forum.
Everybody seems to be an Aryan, but not the actual real Aryans the Kurds. LMAO!
I heard Turks are saying to be Aryans because they are from Central Asia, later some people from Brazil, I do really mean Brazil, told me that they are more 'Aryan'. And GOD knows who..
The Median tribe of mystics, the legendary MAGI, were the uber Aryans. Tell me what do they as Northwest Iranian speaking people have to do with some Uralic cultures in the Steppes?
Uralic people do not originate from steppe but from Siberian forest zone. Indo Europeans originate from steppe.
Map of Ariana based on Eratosthenes' data in Strabo's Geography
https://i.postimg.cc/CxdZT0Hq/eratosthenes.jpg
Dionysius Map 405 BC
https://i.postimg.cc/sfc1MxTW/Dionysius-Map405-BC.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/V6P5CCyq/aryans.png
Uralic people do not originate from steppe but Siberian forest zone. Indo Europeans originate from steppe.No, before Indo-Europeanization of Yamnaya, folks there spoke Mongoloid/Uralic languages.
Yamnaya was just the 1st Indo-European Culture in the Steppes. But not the 1st in the world.
1st stage PIEan was Leyla-Tepe or a similar culture
2nd stage PIEan was Yamnaya
https://i.postimg.cc/5tTKqfpq/proto-Indo-Europeans.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a34TgLS9Tj8
For the Russian SPEAKERS:
https://i.postimg.cc/1Rknx27C/3-19.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/dVvh3dYG/ivanov.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/3wfNtcDZ/Anatollia.jpg
And here the location of the Airyana Vaeja (ARYAN homeland)
https://i.postimg.cc/mrk21y61/Airyana-Vaeja.jpg
Hashoeva
08-03-2019, 06:52 PM
Armenians, Kurds, Iranians are not Europeans. They don't look within the European range of appearances. They have little European blood. They are just native middle eastern who got ruled by some indo- Europeans and took over some of their things.
Once again, if somebody can prove that the Hittites lived in the Steppes BEFORE Yamnaya, which is practically impossible, then we can continue. All evidenced we have got, pre-Yamnaya era, archaeology, linguistics, genes, point the Hittites and therefore proto-Anatolians to their Anatolian homeland.
Because of the Hittites we can be almost 100% sure that first stage PIEan was located in South Caucasus.
No rocket science, it is that simple
Here is a very interesting YouTube 10 minute video that sheds light on the Elamites and the surrounding kingdoms . The elamite language is extinct and some have suggested that it may be related to the Dravidian languages of India but no one is sure
Based on the location and some of their sculptures I believe the Elamites were brown people genetically most similar to the Neolithic Zagrosian farmers and phenotypically probably similar to present day South Iranians Pakistanis and Indians
A lot has happened since their kingdoms . Although I believe Kurds especially Feyli kurds derive a lot of their ancestry from Elamites , present day kurds are much more central Asian and Steppe shifted compared to the Elamites with the Indo Iranianization of The region
https://youtu.be/z3MIT6Xb4WY
sailormoon
08-03-2019, 06:57 PM
https://i.postimg.cc/mrk21y61/Airyana-Vaeja.jpg
Haplogroup R1b-M343, one of the the oldest forms of R1b, can be found in high numbers in the Armenian Highland, which could be the Pre-Proto-Indo-European homeland. Haplogroup R1b-M269, also known as R1b1a1a2, was derived from the Yamna culture and is considered to be the genetic signature of IE ancestry widespread in Europe. Only five individuals out of 110 tested in the Ararat Valley of Armenia belonged to R1b-M269.
Armenians, Kurds, Iranians are not Europeans. They don't look within the European range of appearances. They have little European blood. They are just native middle eastern who got ruled by some indo- Europeans and took over some of their things.Exactly! Kurds are not European at all. We have NOTHING to do with the Europeans. Kurds are simply Aryans or Aryan people who are native to their Aryan homeland.
It is actually the native Europeans who were Indo-Europeanized by people from Yamnaya. On average Europeans have only 1/3 of Yamnaya/Indo-European DNA. This is a FACT and has been proven by many academic papers.
Here is a very interesting YouTube 10 minute video that sheds light on the Elamites and the surrounding kingdoms.I don't know who they were but Elam was not located in Kurdistan. Aryans lived closer to the Caucasus and the Caspian Sea. Most likely the Persian assimilated the Elamites.
Haplogroup R1b-M343, one of the the oldest forms of R1b, can be found in high numbers in the Armenian Highland, which could be the Pre-Proto-Indo-European homeland. Haplogroup R1b-M269, also known as R1b1a1a2, was derived from the Yamna culture and is considered to be the genetic signature of IE ancestry widespread in Europe. Only five individuals out of 110 tested in the Ararat Valley of Armenia belonged to R1b-M269.There is also a lot R1b in Ezdi Kurds (in Iraq/South Kurdistan) who are actually closer to the proto-Kurds than their Muslim Kurdish brothers.
Y-DNA hg. 'L' in Ezdi Kurds was also found in the much more older Maykop Culture, BMAC and the Copper Age Armenians.
Results from south Kurdistan:
https://i.postimg.cc/TYPkSk14/Ezdi-Kurds.png
What I'm tying to say is that the first stage of PIEans belonged most like to more than 1 Y-DNA haplogroup, they were diverse. I'm just R1a* which is native to Kurdistan
I don't know who they were but Elam was not located in Kurdistan. Aryans lived closer to the Caucasus and the Caspian Sea. Most likely the Persian assimilated the Elamites.
Based on part of their kingdom being in the southern Zagros Near Kermanshah (southern kurdistan) and the Ganj Dareh area where they recovered the Neolithic Zagrosian herders and based on their faces from their sculptures they most likely resembled the Neolithic Zagrosian farmers (the video mentions this too) and so southern persians , feyli kurds, pakistanis.
Izady in one of his books talks about Kurds moving north from the Kermanshah zagros area and ultimately into Turkey. The proof for the kurds moving north from the Kermanshah area he bases on a couple of things one of which is the suffix of northern kurdish tribal names which originates in southern Kurdistan.
Regardless Kurds especially Sorani and Kurmanji are much more Parthian, Saka, Central Asian, Mede shifted compared to the Elamites which genetically Most likely resembles neolithic Iranian farmers
Izady in one of his books talks about Kurds moving north from the Kermanshah zagros area and ultimately into Turkey. The proof for the kurds moving north from the Kermanshah area he bases on a couple of things one of which is the suffix of northern kurdish tribal names which originates in southern Kurdistan.Original Kurds were the proto-West Iranic Gutians.
Those Gutians lived next to Elam and were their neighbors. We are from the Guti/Gutians and not Elamites.
Later on Gutians migrated to the north and became know as Aryan 'Mitanni' and found a Mitanni Kingdom. Gutians who stayed in our beloved Aryan Zagros Mountains became known as the 'Kassites'
https://i.postimg.cc/mgk7BJW0/Mapa-mesopotamia-de.png
https://i.postimg.cc/8CrWrv54/Akkadian-Empire-1.png
Gutium/Gudea 2264-2137 (Arshak Safrastian, 1909)
https://i.postimg.cc/T12pQ5RZ/Gutium-2264-2137-Arshak-Safrastian-1909.jpg
No, before Indo-Europeanization of Yamnaya, folks there spoke Mongoloid/Uralic languages.
Yamnaya was just the 1st Indo-European Culture in the Steppes. But not the 1st in the world.
1st stage PIEan was Leyla-Tepe or a similar culture
2nd stage PIEan was Yamnaya
https://i.postimg.cc/5tTKqfpq/proto-Indo-Europeans.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a34TgLS9Tj8
Bullshit.no proof whatsoever Yamnanya has any relation with Uralics, not linguistically neither genetically.
It is fantasy, or post serious studies that claim so.
Once again, if somebody can prove that the Hittites lived in the Steppes BEFORE Yamnaya, which is practically impossible, then we can continue. All evidenced we have got, pre-Yamnaya era, archaeology, linguistics, genes, point the Hittites and therefore proto-Anatolians to their Anatolian homeland.
Because of the Hittites we can be almost 100% sure that first stage PIEan was located in South Caucasus.
No rocket science, it is that simple
Doesnt matter where they originate from, IE languages spread trough steppes to India and Europe. It was steppe people who made IEs relevant and mighty, even if they were just indoeuropeanised (which is just one of several hypotesis for now, not an established fact)
Bullshit.no proof whatsoever Yamnanya has any relation with Uralics, not linguistically neither genetically.
It is fantasy, or post serious studies that claim so.No, Yamnaya was (second stage) PIEan culture. Yamnaya was most likely IEan. But before that, let say 4000 BC pre-Yamnaya people in north of the Caucasus were ver similar to the people in the Urals.
Khvalynsk culture was an Uraloid/Mongoloid culture.
Doesnt matter where they originate from, IE languages spread trough steppes to India and Europe. It was steppe people who made IEs relevant and mighty, even if they were just indoeuropeanised (which is just one of several hypotesis for now, not an established fact)Exactly and people who spoke some ancient IEan languages were genetical no the same people. Ancient Hittites were very different from CWC. 'Indo-European' refers to a language group and not to a 'race'/ethnic group.
Karaton
08-04-2019, 09:54 AM
Armenians, Kurds, Iranians are not Europeans. They don't look within the European range of appearances. They have little European blood. They are just native middle eastern who got ruled by some indo- Europeans and took over some of their things.
Exactly this is.
Arhat
08-05-2019, 01:06 PM
No, Yamnaya was (second stage) PIEan culture. Yamnaya was most likely IEan. But before that, let say 4000 BC pre-Yamnaya people in north of the Caucasus were ver similar to the people in the Urals.
Khvalynsk culture was an Uraloid/Mongoloid culture.
Khvalynsk was an EHG culture with CHG admixture from some South Volga/Caspian groups. Either you are a troll or just not very smart. There was nothing Uralid about Khvalynsk
Khvalynsk was an EHG culture with CHG admixture from some South Volga/Caspian groups. Either you are a troll or just not very smart. There was nothing Uralid about KhvalynskBefore Indo-Europeanisation of the Steppes, the pure EHG folks spoke 'Uralic' languages
Arhat
08-06-2019, 05:47 AM
Before Indo-Europeanisation of the Steppes, the pure EHG folks spoke 'Uralic' languages
No. Uralic languages quite recently arrived during the Iron Age/Late Bronze Age in most of North Europe. Repeating stupid things doesnt make them more real.
No. Uralic languages quite recently arrived during the Iron Age/Late Bronze Age in most of North Europe. Repeating stupid things doesnt make them more real.Hahahaha, what language was spoken before Indo-Europeanisation of the Steppes then? African?
It is you who is repeating nonsense, without showing any evidence. Uralic has been spoken in the Steppes and even in parts of Europe for thousands of years. Later on it was Indo-Europeanised by second stage Yamnaya folks. There is Yamnya migration into all parts of Europe. Those migrations have been detected by DNA and by archaeology.
Arzanene
08-06-2019, 06:33 PM
I've seen some Armenian kits on gedmatch(MDLP k16) that do have indo european blood(shows up as Scottish or northern italian admixture). but it is generally no more than 10-15%. I've seen one that had 90% Armenian_Erzerum+ 10% Orcadian.
its mostly western Armenians from Sivas, erzincan, Adana... ect who typically have this type of admixture though
FinalFlash
08-06-2019, 06:48 PM
I've seen some Armenian kits on gedmatch(MDLP k16) that do have indo european blood(shows up as Scottish or northern italian admixture). but it is generally no more than 10-15%. I've seen one that had 90% Armenian_Erzerum+ 10% Orcadian.
its mostly western Armenians from Sivas, erzincan, Adana... ect who typically have this type of admixture though
It's roughly at similar levels for both East and West. If anything, Easterners have slightly more based off of Eurogenes K15.
It's roughly at similar levels for both East and West. If anything, Easterners have slightly more based off of Eurogenes K15.
Western Armenians seem to be only ca. 4% North European on Dodecad K12b with some samples barely scoring 1%.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?296875-More-than-400-Anatolian-Turkish-other-ethnicities-Gedmatch-results
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Pj2rBe3L-Jf89JFACjTC1hSRfI7EOps-zed1x0FFpbY/edit#gid=0
Tigranes
08-06-2019, 09:04 PM
Western Armenians seem to be only ca. 4% North European on Dodecad K12b with some samples barely scoring 1%.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?296875-More-than-400-Anatolian-Turkish-other-ethnicities-Gedmatch-results
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Pj2rBe3L-Jf89JFACjTC1hSRfI7EOps-zed1x0FFpbY/edit#gid=0
Where are the Western Armenian results? It says Anatolian Turks results on links you sent.
Where are the Western Armenian results? It says Anatolian Turks results on links you sent.
The spreadsheet has two pages. The Armenians are on the other page.
Karaton
08-07-2019, 12:48 PM
It's roughly at similar levels for both East and West. If anything, Easterners have slightly more based off of Eurogenes K15.
K15 doesn't work well with Middle Eastern pops. It is too much European oriented.
Karaton
08-07-2019, 12:53 PM
I've seen some Armenian kits on gedmatch(MDLP k16) that do have indo european blood(shows up as Scottish or northern italian admixture). but it is generally no more than 10-15%. I've seen one that had 90% Armenian_Erzerum+ 10% Orcadian.
its mostly western Armenians from Sivas, erzincan, Adana... ect who typically have this type of admixture though
MDLP K16 is really a joke. The steppe component is blown up in everyone.
Tigranes
08-07-2019, 01:09 PM
Why MS85 was banned ?
Why MS85 was banned ?
Because he was a troll and deliberately posted nonsense.
Babak
08-07-2019, 04:08 PM
Why MS85 was banned ?
He posted nonsense bullshit on a consistent basis, insulted members when nobody would agree with him, and refused any scientific data that was shown to him.
He posted nonsense bullshit on a consistent basis, insulted members when nobody would agree with him, and refused any scientific data that was shown to him.
I actually was friendly to the guy and at first even enjoyed his postings but then he went completely off the rails. I did report him for trolling.
Karaton
08-07-2019, 04:36 PM
What ya'll expect from a Kurdish kiro?
Karaton
08-07-2019, 04:56 PM
Western Armenians seem to be only ca. 4% North European on Dodecad K12b with some samples barely scoring 1%.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?296875-More-than-400-Anatolian-Turkish-other-ethnicities-Gedmatch-results
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Pj2rBe3L-Jf89JFACjTC1hSRfI7EOps-zed1x0FFpbY/edit#gid=0
It's probably down to zero on G25.
Here is a modelling of Eastern Armenians:
Neolitic samples:
[1] "distance%=5.0627 / distance=0.050627"
Armenian
GEO_CHG 45.5
Anatolia_Barcin_N 36.9
Levant_Natufian 16.8
NW_AASI_Sim_Avg 0.8
RUS_Sidelkino_HG 0.0
RUS_Shamanka_N 0.0
WHG 0.0
Bronze Age:
[1] "distance%=1.575 / distance=0.01575"
Armenian
Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps 50.00
Anatolia_Ovaoren_EBA 28.85
Levant_JOR_EBA 17.00
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara 4.00
MNG_Hovsgol_BA 0.15
Paniya 0.00
RUS_Maykop_Late 0.00
Armenians are obviously assimilated natives by Indo-European invaders.
Tigranes
08-07-2019, 06:02 PM
It's probably down to zero on G25.
Here is a modelling of Eastern Armenians:
Neolitic samples:
[1] "distance%=5.0627 / distance=0.050627"
Armenian
GEO_CHG 45.5
Anatolia_Barcin_N 36.9
Levant_Natufian 16.8
NW_AASI_Sim_Avg 0.8
RUS_Sidelkino_HG 0.0
RUS_Shamanka_N 0.0
WHG 0.0
Bronze Age:
[1] "distance%=1.575 / distance=0.01575"
Armenian
Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps 50.00
Anatolia_Ovaoren_EBA 28.85
Levant_JOR_EBA 17.00
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara 4.00
MNG_Hovsgol_BA 0.15
Paniya 0.00
RUS_Maykop_Late 0.00
Armenians are obviously assimilated natives by Indo-European invaders.
What's RUS? Russia? Armenian Highland was the one and only original homeland of Proto-Indo-Europeans, from there they spread to Europe.
https://i1.wp.com/www.peopleofar.com/wp-content/uploads/Indo-European-Homeland-hypothesis.jpg?resize=738%2C355&ssl=1
Tigranes
08-07-2019, 06:22 PM
He posted nonsense bullshit on a consistent basis, insulted members when nobody would agree with him, and refused any scientific data that was shown to him.
Bullshit, according to whom? He also backed his claims with "scientific" data. The thing is, people here have no respect for others' opinions, and tend to label anyone who doesn't agree with them as "troll".
MS85 was an interesting guy, he was obviously proud of his "Aryan" heritage, I don't see anything wrong with that, I mean if Nordicists are allowed promote their bullshit...
Tigranes
08-07-2019, 06:41 PM
Iran literally means "The Land of Aryans".
֍ Salute to the noble Aryan race! ֍
Babak
08-07-2019, 06:47 PM
Bullshit, according to whom? He also backed his claims with "scientific" data. The thing is, people here have no respect for others' opinions, and tend to label anyone who doesn't agree with them as "troll".
MS85 was an interesting guy, he was obviously proud of his "Aryan" heritage, I don't see anything wrong with that, I mean if Nordicists are allowed promote their bullshit...
-He tried his hardest to try to prove Kurds and Persians are not somehow related and that Kurds "created" persians.
-He constantly insulted leto and arhat simply because they were trying to express their opinion.
-None of the shit he said made sense. For example, he claimed Assyrians were not native to mesopotamia and that Kurds were the "Purest aryans" and "Rightful owners of Iran and mesopotamia" He also kept arguing about Russians are "Russian speaking mongolians" even after Arhat disproved him several times.
-He always kept insulting Persians and that his people will genocide us if we dont "leave their people" alone. This is not tolerated here.
War Chef
08-07-2019, 06:59 PM
Btw, according to the Max Planck Society first stage of PIEan is the Armenian Plateau or somewhere in West Iran.
Max Planck Society =
The Max Planck Society for the Advancement of Science (German: Max-Planck-Gesellschaft zur Förderung der Wissenschaften e. V.; abbreviated MPG) is a formally independent non-governmental and non-profit association of German research institutes founded in 1911 as the Kaiser Wilhelm Society and renamed the Max Planck Society in 1948 in honor of its former president, theoretical physicist Max Planck. The society is funded by the federal and state governments of Germany.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Planck_Society
Germans support this homeland because they are Russophobic and want to take glory away from Russia (where the real Indo-European homeland is).
Also they are Politically Correct and try to say we all came from the Middle-East etc. and other bullshit to look less Nazi.
He also kept arguing about Russians are "Russian speaking mongolians" even after Arhat disproved him several times.
He brought up Russians literally out of nothing when we were discussing Iranic genetics only because I and Arhat are Russian. He repeated a nonsensical claim ("Central Asians are mongoloid because of Russian influence" lol) several times. Had he mentioned that once and then shut up, no one would've banned him. But he started posting Russian women with Turks, mentioning Putin and things like that (offtopic and intended to stir up animosity). If that is not trolling, then what is the definition of trolling?
MS85 was an interesting guy, he was obviously proud of his "Aryan" heritage, I don't see anything wrong with that, I mean if Nordicists are allowed promote their bullshit...
No one said there was something wrong with that, you are strawmaning. He attacked and insulted people even when he was obviously proven wrong.
War Chef
08-07-2019, 07:09 PM
You guys have no idea about the Proto-Indo-Europeans, none of you.
The Proto-Indo-Europeans were a hybrid synergy of 2 groups conveniently labeled "EHG" and "CHG"...... One side was similar to modern Finns/Estonians, the other to Dagestanis, the question is which group brought the language, or maybe even the language was hybridized just like their genetics.
Uralic language + some language from the Caucasus = Proto-Indo-European
Germans support this homeland because they are Russophobic and want to take glory away from Russia (where the real Indo-European homeland is).
Also they are Politically Correct and try to say we all came from the Middle-East etc. and other bullshit to look less Nazi.
Well, even David W. Anthony couldn't help but mention in the beginnig of his book on the IE (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Horse,_the_Wheel,_and_Language) that "the Aryans obviously were far from white", even though he couldn't actually prove whether they were or weren't (the book was published back in 2007).
You guys have no idea about the Proto-Indo-Europeans, none of you.
The Proto-Indo-Europeans were a hybrid synergy of 2 groups conveniently labeled "EHG" and "CHG"...... One side was similar to modern Finns/Estonians, the other to Dagestanis, the question is which group brought the language, or maybe even the language was hybridized just like their genetics.
Everyone knows that, the studies on the Yamnaya established that they were roughly 50/50 Euro HG and Caucasus HG. The Corded Ware were more EHG-shifted.
War Chef
08-07-2019, 07:20 PM
Everyone knows that, the studies on the Yamnaya established that they were roughly 50/50 Euro HG and Caucasus HG. The Corded Ware were more EHG-shifted.
But nobody knows from which culture the CHG came from. It wasn't Maykop.
It was some unidentified Dagestani tribe that hit the steppe to hunt game near the Volga Delta mouth (modern Astrakhan).
War Chef
08-07-2019, 07:22 PM
Dienekes, a Greek blogger picked up that Kavkaz signal almost a decade ago, he called it "Urkarah".
It's the trace marker of the original Proto-Indo-Europeans.
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/12/solution-to-problem-of-indo-aryan.html
Bullshit, according to whom? He also backed his claims with "scientific" data. The thing is, people here have no respect for others' opinions, and tend to label anyone who doesn't agree with them as "troll".
MS85 was an interesting guy, he was obviously proud of his "Aryan" heritage, I don't see anything wrong with that, I mean if Nordicists are allowed promote their bullshit...
I agree people should be tolerant of other's ideas. I didn't agree with some of his stuff but I think he should be given a 2nd chance because his posts stirred up alot of interest and debate, even though he was wrong on some stuff. I actually got a few laughs from his stuff.
He also didn't pretend to be someone he wasn't like some of the Indians and west Asians pretending to be Europeans here. I'm always suspicious of people who they say are Europeans but are much more active and interested in Asian stuff than their own. He was clear that he was a Yazidi Kurd and proud of it.
Also he did admit that he was learning.
Babak
08-07-2019, 07:57 PM
I agree people should be tolerant of other's ideas. I didn't agree with some of his stuff but I think he should be given a 2nd chance because his posts stirred up alot of interest and debate, even though he was wrong on some stuff. I actually got a few laughs from his stuff.
He also didn't pretend to be someone he wasn't like some of the Indians and west Asians pretending to be Europeans here. I'm always suspicious of people who they say are Europeans but are much more active and interested in Asian stuff than their own. He was clear that he was a Yazidi Kurd and proud of it.
Also he did admit that he was learning.
Well apparently he wasn't tolerant of our posts either. I remember last month I told him a story about some Iraqi kurd that I know in person that wished death upon Iran and Persians and he supported that idea without any hesitation. I got along with him for a period time until he started talking shit and constantly getting off topic
Well apparently he wasn't tolerant of our posts either. I remember last month I told him a story about some Iraqi kurd that I know in person that wished death upon Iran and Persians and he supported that idea without any hesitation. I got along with him for a period time until he started talking shit and constantly getting off topic
You’re right that’s unacceptable. Let’s face it we are basically Iranians and Iran has been much more friendly towards the Kurds than Turkey or Sadam’ Iraq ever was. I also didn’t care much for the anti Barzani rhetoric.
happycow
08-08-2019, 12:05 AM
damn I just realized the kurdish kang was banned. He was entertaining.
FinalFlash
08-08-2019, 03:59 AM
The spreadsheet has two pages. The Armenians are on the other page.
Don't pay too much attention to these BS "academic" samples. They're highly inaccurate and very dubious especially when comparing their results to real life people. Steer clear of those caspianoid kits.
FinalFlash
08-08-2019, 04:00 AM
K15 doesn't work well with Middle Eastern pops. It is too much European oriented.
It's identical to K13, just a bit more detailed. If they update their components categories into more specific components, it would've been a badass calc.
Karaton
08-08-2019, 06:39 AM
Don't pay too much attention to these BS "academic" samples. They're highly inaccurate and very dubious especially when comparing their results to real life people. Steer clear of those caspianoid kits.
Those Armenians are not academic samples.
Karaton
08-08-2019, 06:43 AM
What's RUS? Russia? Armenian Highland was the one and only original homeland of Proto-Indo-Europeans, from there they spread to Europe.
https://i1.wp.com/www.peopleofar.com/wp-content/uploads/Indo-European-Homeland-hypothesis.jpg?resize=738%2C355&ssl=1
That map is based on a THEORY which is not supported by the most scholars.
Yamnaya is modelled like 50% CHG + 50% EHG. Your EHG levels are near zero, there is no way you are "Indo-European" genetically.
FinalFlash
08-08-2019, 07:59 AM
Those Armenians are not academic samples.
They used most of those caspianoid samples for Global 25 because they were "academic". This was coming from Davidski himself.
Austrvegr
08-08-2019, 09:00 AM
What's RUS? Russia? Armenian Highland was the one and only original homeland of Proto-Indo-Europeans
Yes, that's why it was still speaking Urartian in the 7th century BC.
:nod:
Armenian Bishop
08-08-2019, 09:31 AM
What's RUS? Russia? Armenian Highland was the one and only original homeland of Proto-Indo-Europeans, from there they spread to Europe.
https://i1.wp.com/www.peopleofar.com/wp-content/uploads/Indo-European-Homeland-hypothesis.jpg?resize=738%2C355&ssl=1
For those whom give credence to the Biblical Flood Story of Noah's Arc, the Armenian Highlands should indeed be the most credible possibility for the origin of Proto-Indo-European Civilizations. Biblically speaking, Noah's Arc rested in the Mountains of Ararat; the Mountains of Ararat is one and the same thing as the Armenian Highlands.
Tigranes
08-08-2019, 10:10 AM
Here are some other "scientific studies" supports Armenian hypothesis, you guys love them, don't you?
The Armenian hypothesis of the Proto-Indo-European homeland, proposed by Georgian Tamaz V. Gamkrelidze and Russian linguist Vyacheslav Ivanov in 1985, suggests that Proto-Indo-European was spoken during the 5th–4th millennia BC in "eastern Anatolia, the southern Caucasus, and northern Mesopotamia".
Recent DNA-research has led to renewed suggestions of a Caucasian homeland for a 'proto-proto-Indo-European'. It also lends support to the Indo-Hittite hypothesis, according to which both proto-Anatolian and proto-Indo-European split-off from a common mother language "no later than the 4th millennium BCE."
Haak et al. (2015) states that "the Armenian plateau hypothesis gains in plausibility" since the Yamnaya partly descended from a Near Eastern population, which resembles present-day Armenians. Yet, they also state that "the question of what languages were spoken by the 'Eastern European hunter-gatherers' and the southern, Armenian-like, ancestral population remains open."
David Reich, in his 2018 publication Who We Are and How We Got Here, states that "the most likely location of the population that first spoke an Indo-European language was south of the Caucasus Mountains, perhaps in present-day Iran or Armenia, because ancient DNA from people who lived there matches what we would expect for a source population both for the Yamnaya and for ancient Anatolians." Nevertheless, Reich also states that some, if not most, of the Indo-European languages were spread by the Yamnaya people.
According to Kroonen et al. (2018), Damgaard et al. (2018) "show no indication of a large-scale intrusion of a steppe population." They further note that the earliest attestation of Anatolian names, in the Armi state, must be dated to 3000-2400 BCE, contemporaneous with the Yamnaya culture, concluding that "a scenario in which the Anatolian Indo-European language was linguistically derived from Indo-European speakers originating in this culture can be rejected."They further note that this lends support to the Indo-Hittite hypothesis, according to which both proto-Anatolian and proto-Indo-European split-off from a common mother language "no later than the 4th millennium BCE."
Wang et al. (2018) note that the Caucasus served as a corridor for gene flow between the steppe and cultures south of the Caucasus during the Eneolithic and the Bronze Age, stating that this "opens up the possibility of a homeland of PIE south of the Caucasus."
Kristian Kristiansen, in an interview with Der Spiegel in may 2018, stated that the Yamnaya culture may have had a predecessor at the Caucasus, where "proto-proto-Indo-European" was spoken.
The Armenian Theory, as argued by Gamkrelidze and Ivanov (1990), places the PIE homeland in or near the Armenian Highland. According to this model, the eventual speakers of Hittite and the other Anatolian languages split off no later than 4000 BC, invading Anatolia from the east by 2000 BC and subjugating it by 1400 BC.
The PIE community continued to fracture at this point, beginning to split into several groups -- the Greek-Armenian-Indo-Iranians, the Celto-Italo-Tocharians, and the Balto-Slavo-Germanics -- around 4000 BC.From about 3000-2500 BC, these groups (and their respective languages) split further as population booms, the results of developments in agriculture in the region, sparked waves of migration in search of unfarmed land. The Greeks travelled to the west, followed by the Indo-Aryans to the east, along with the Celto- Italo-Tocharians and Balto-Slavo-Germanics, these latter then turning north once east of the Caspian Sea -- all while the Armenians remained in-situ. Before 2000 BC, the Celto-Italics had split from the Tocharians (who began travelling east) and circled west with the Balto-Slavo-Germanics, settling in a loosely confederated community north of the Black Sea. From 2000-1000 BC they then began migrating in waves to their present locations, eradicating or assimilating the native peoples and languages of Europe (Gamkrelidze & Ivanov 1990).
The Indo-European language family includes most European but also some languages of the Fertile Crescent, the Caucasus, West and South Asia. With over 400 languages (including dialects) it is by far the world’s largest language family and is spoken by almost 3 billion native speakers world wide. Armenian language is considered by some to be one of the oldest surviving members of this family, with some estimates going as far as 5000 BC.
Tigranes
08-08-2019, 10:13 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCbulVBNNUY
From the documentary "Les grands voyages de l‘humanité"/"Die Reise der Menschheit" (Cristina Trebbi and Christian Twente, Germany, 2018). It was broadcasted by ARTE a public Franco-German TV network that promotes programming in the areas of culture and the arts.
This clip highlights the new theory put forward by the Max Planck Institute that Armenia is the Proto-Indo European homeland.
From the video, Russell Gray : "According to us, the best hypothesis is the one which brings together genetic and linguistic data. They [the Proto-Indo-Europeans] would have lived east of the fertile crescent about 8000 years ago ... We believe that the origin is here in the southern Caucasus, eastern Anatolia, Armenia, and perhaps in northern Iran about 8,000 years ago"
"The most likely location of the population that first spoke an Indo-European language was south of the Caucasus Mountains, perhaps in presend-day Iran or Armenia, because Ancient DNA from people who lived there matches what we would expect for a source population both for the Yamnaya and for ancient Anatolians".
-David Reich ("Who We Are and How We Got Here: Ancient DNA and the New Science of the Human Past", 2018, p.120)
For more information watch: https://youtu.be/UsXrwDqHJ8U
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsXrwDqHJ8U
Danaan
08-08-2019, 10:26 AM
PIEans were EEF but some groups during the late PIE stage mixed primarily with WHGs (Celtic, Baltic certainly) others primarily with CHGs (Greek, Aryan).
The homeland in Armenia, NE Anatolia, Caucasus, S. Iran or the steppes doesn't make much sense essentially. Anatolian languages were mostly in the South and West Anatolia.
Iran N people were speaking a language more similar to Elamite or even Dravidian and the Steppe EMBA people a language more similar to North East Caucasian (but even more exotic).
Danaan
08-08-2019, 10:27 AM
PIEans were EEF but some groups during the late PIE stage mixed primarily with WHGs (Celtic, Baltic certainly) others primarily with CHGs (Greek, Aryan).
The homeland in Armenia, NE Anatolia, Caucasus, S. Iran or the steppes doesn't make much sense essentially. Anatolian languages were mostly in the South and West Anatolia.
Iran N people were speaking a language more similar to Elamite or even Dravidian and the Steppe EMBA people a language more similar to North East Caucasian (but even more exotic).
Don't pay too much attention to these BS "academic" samples. They're highly inaccurate and very dubious especially when comparing their results to real life people. Steer clear of those caspianoid kits.
Post your average then. You always criticize other data but you have not even ordered a test for yourself.
Karaton
08-08-2019, 02:07 PM
They used most of those caspianoid samples for Global 25 because they were "academic". This was coming from Davidski himself.
I'm not talking about the Global G25. I'm talking about the spreadsheet Leto posted.
FinalFlash
08-09-2019, 01:58 AM
Yes, that's why it was still speaking Urartian in the 7th century BC.
:nod:
The Armenian language was attested for a bit before the 7th century BC.
FinalFlash
08-09-2019, 02:00 AM
Post your average then. You always criticize other data but you have not even ordered a test for yourself.
When I have time, I will post the averages of many kits I promise you.
Tigranes
08-23-2019, 11:04 AM
When I have time, I will post the averages of many kits I promise you.
What does this chart tell? I found this on r/armenia, but I'm not that good at genetics stuff. Weren't Europeans supposed to be closer to the Yamnaya?:icon_ask:
https://i.imgur.com/DcPqaJv.png
Ayetooey
08-23-2019, 01:11 PM
What does this chart tell? I found this on r/armenia, but I'm not that good at genetics stuff. Weren't Europeans supposed to be closer to the Yamnaya?:icon_ask:
Comparison here. And Yamnaya were something like 50% CHG 50% EHG so not particularly close to modern Euros; closest pops are NE Euros and north Caucacus people according to this chart.
http://www.haplogruplar.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/IE_wm1.jpg
Tigranes
08-23-2019, 01:34 PM
Comparison here. And Yamnaya were something like 50% CHG 50% EHG so not particularly close to modern Euros; closest pops are NE Euros and north Caucacus people according to this chart.
Sardinians literally have no Yamnaya admixture, but they're speaking an Indo-European language as well, while North Caucasians have considerable amount of Yamnaya admixture, but they are speaking non Indo-European, Nakh languages. I don't see any relation between Proto-Indo-European and Yamnaya.
Sardinians literally have no Yamnaya admixture, but they're speaking an Indo-European language as well, while North Caucasians have considerable amount of Yamnaya admixture, but they are speaking non Indo-European, Nakh languages. I don't see any relation between Proto-Indo-European and Yamnaya.
They have a considerable amount of Euro HG blood:
Tabassaran
North_Atlantic 13.72
Baltic 15.78
West_Med 1.26
West_Asian 46.45
East_Med 12.21
Red_Sea 0.80
South_Asian 5.67
East_Asian 0.29
Siberian 1.31
Amerindian 1.95
Oceanian 0.21
Northeast_African 0.03
Sub-Saharan 0.32
Lezgin
North_Atlantic 11.19
Baltic 15.66
West_Med 1.70
West_Asian 47.07
East_Med 15.17
Red_Sea 1.06
South_Asian 4.19
East_Asian 0.77
Siberian 1.51
Amerindian 1.04
Oceanian 0.40
Northeast_African 0.13
Saharan 0.11
Kumyk
North_Atlantic 7.40
Baltic 12.43
West_Med 6.78
West_Asian 41.62
East_Med 18.24
Red_Sea 2.19
South_Asian 3.84
East_Asian 2.21
Siberian 3.07
Amerindian 1.39
Oceanian 0.46
Northeast_African 0.15
Sub-Saharan 0.21
Chechen
North_Atlantic 10.14
Baltic 15.25
West_Med 4.48
West_Asian 46.45
East_Med 13.11
Red_Sea 1.36
South_Asian 3.47
East_Asian 1.34
Siberian 1.73
Amerindian 1.32
Oceanian 1.05
Northeast_African 0.18
Sub-Saharan 0.12
Ossetian
North_Atlantic 7.84
Baltic 7.30
West_Med 9.08
West_Asian 48.98
East_Med 14.05
Red_Sea 1.99
South_Asian 2.74
East_Asian 2.92
Siberian 4.19
Amerindian 0.56
Oceanian 0.21
Northeast_African 0.13
Sub-Saharan 0.01
North_Ossetian
North_Atlantic 6.39
Baltic 11.93
West_Asian 7.27
West_Asian 48.78
East_Med 14.62
Red_Sea 1.38
South_Asian 1.74
East_Asian 2.27
Siberian 4.59
Amerindian 0.62
Oceanian 0.30
Northeast_African 0.06
Sub-Saharan 0.05
Adygei
North_Atlantic 6.38
Baltic 12.14
West_Med 7.88
West_Asian 47.22
East_Med 16.97
Red_Sea 1.95
South_Asian 2.79
East_Asian 1.08
Siberian 2.58
Amerindian 0.80
Oceanian 0.13
Northeast_African 0.05
Sub-Saharan 0.03
Kabardin
North_Atlantic 7.04
Baltic 13.45
West_Med 8.22
West_Asian 44.99
East_Med 13.16
Red_Sea 1.89
South_Asian 2.40
East_Asian 2.32
Siberian 5.14
Amerindian 0.72
Oceanian 0.23
Northeast_African 0.24
Sub-Saharan 0.19
Balkar
North_Atlantic 6.59
Baltic 10.90
West_Med 9.30
West_Asian 45.36
East_Med 14.67
Red_Sea 0.77
South_Asian 1.99
East_Asian 3.35
Siberian 5.53
Amerindian 0.83
Oceanian 0.50
Northeast_African 0.06
Sub-Saharan 0.17
These are the spreadsheet averages.
Balkars specifically have considerable aR1an heritage :cool:
I've tried and used my Steppe-centric Central Asian model for Armenians and the fit is actually pretty decent
Target: Armenian
Distance: 2.0266% / 0.02026556
53.2 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
25.2 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
15.2 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
6.4 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
Their Steppe ancestry is apparently half the amount an average Kurd or Persian has.
FinalFlash
09-28-2021, 03:27 PM
I've tried and used my Steppe-centric Central Asian model for Armenians and the fit is actually pretty decent
Target: Armenian
Distance: 2.0266% / 0.02026556
53.2 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
25.2 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
15.2 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
6.4 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
Their Steppe ancestry is apparently half the amount an average Kurd or Persian has.
Armenian_updated_scaled,0.104907,0.13625,-0.055311,-0.056364,-0.029441,-0.013062,0.004034,-0.005846,-0.031906,-0.007684,-0.000677,0.001574,-0.005154,0.005757,-0.004592,-0.007292,-0.004911,-0.000423,0.003813,-0.005836,0.002142,0.002803,0.000719,-0.004197,0.000858
Use these updates coordinates
Armenian_updated_scaled,0.104907,0.13625,-0.055311,-0.056364,-0.029441,-0.013062,0.004034,-0.005846,-0.031906,-0.007684,-0.000677,0.001574,-0.005154,0.005757,-0.004592,-0.007292,-0.004911,-0.000423,0.003813,-0.005836,0.002142,0.002803,0.000719,-0.004197,0.000858
Use these updates coordinates
A slightly bigger distance but the overall result is very close to the previous one
Target: Armenian_updated_scaled
Distance: 2.6583% / 0.02658323
55.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
26.6 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
9.6 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
8.4 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
For those who wonder — TUR_KK is basically ca. 40% Kura-Araxes, 40% Tur_Barcin and the rest is Levant and IRN_Ganj_Dareh (in that order). Teppe Hissar is 60% Ganj Dareh and 40% Kura-Araxes. Megiddo is 60% Levant_PPNB and the rest is Kura-Araxes and minor Anatolian. KAZ_Aktogai (Andronovo) is 70% Yamnaya, 20% Barcin and 10% WHG, so pretty much purely European.
FinalFlash
09-28-2021, 04:21 PM
A slightly bigger distance but the overall result is very close to the previous one
Target: Armenian_updated_scaled
Distance: 2.6583% / 0.02658323
55.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
26.6 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
9.6 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
8.4 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
For those who wonder — TUR_KK is basically ca. 40% Kura-Araxes, 40% Tur_Barcin and the rest is Levant and IRN_Ganj_Dareh (in that order). Teppe Hissar is 60% Ganj Dareh and 40% Kura-Araxes. Megiddo is 60% Levant_PPNB and the rest is Kura-Araxes and minor Anatolian. KAZ_Aktogai (Andronovo) is 70% Yamnaya, 20% Barcin and 10% WHG, so pretty much purely European.
Got you a better model here
Target: Armenian_updated_scaled
Distance: 1.8061% / 0.01806145
48.2 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
38.8 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
13.0 RUS_Catacomb
0.0 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
0.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
0.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
FinalFlash
09-28-2021, 04:35 PM
Target: Armenian_updated_scaled
Distance: 1.9527% / 0.01952667
47.6 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
40.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
12.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.0 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
0.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
Similar one but without Catacomb
First of all, my model is for Steppe ancestry in Central Asia. Secondly, I use samples from roughly the same period of time.
Don't think Armenians are above 10% Steppe. Maybe certain individuals can be but not the ethnic group as a whole. Their North_European is literally the lowest in the entire region (second to Arabs maybe). That's not debatable at this point.
Zanzibar
09-28-2021, 05:08 PM
Target: Armenian_updated_scaled
Distance: 1.9527% / 0.01952667
47.6 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
40.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
12.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.0 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
0.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
Similar one but without Catacomb
Do Georgians have higher or lower Steppe than Armenians?
FinalFlash
09-28-2021, 06:04 PM
First of all, my model is for Steppe ancestry in Central Asia. Secondly, I use samples from roughly the same period of time.
Don't think Armenians are above 10% Steppe. Maybe certain individuals can be but not the ethnic group as a whole. Their North_European is literally the lowest in the entire region (second to Arabs maybe). That's not debatable at this point.
It's lower than Kurds and Iranics but higher than anybody else in W.Asia.
Target: Armenian_updated_scaled
Distance: 2.1376% / 0.02137568
53.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
33.6 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
13.0 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
0.0 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
0.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
Even using your Central Asian steppe source its about 13% so its more than 10% on average. Also, Armenian steppe-source is likely not from Central Asia but from RUS_Catacomb which would explain the better fit distance. I would say its 10-13% for the average. Also, I wouldn't use outdated Gedmatch components like "north-european" as anything to go by seeing as how Georgians score like 8% on average for those Gedmatch runs, which you and I both know is untrue, if not downright ridiculous.
FinalFlash
09-28-2021, 06:08 PM
Do Georgians have higher or lower Steppe than Armenians?
Georgians have noise-level to no steppe.
It's lower than Kurds and Iranics but higher than anybody else in W.Asia.
Target: Armenian_updated_scaled
Distance: 2.1376% / 0.02137568
53.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
33.6 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
13.0 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
0.0 Levant_Megiddo_MLBA
0.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
Even using your Central Asian steppe source its about 13% so its more than 10% on average. Also, Armenian steppe-source is likely not from Central Asia but from RUS_Catacomb which would explain the better fit distance. I would say its 10-13% for the average. Also, I wouldn't use outdated Gedmatch components like "north-european" as anything to go by seeing as how Georgians score like 8% on average for those Gedmatch runs, which you and I both know is untrue, if not downright ridiculous.
Well, that was just one model. It will vary slightly depending on the model and on where an Armenian is from. 10% might be realistic, I agree. 15% - not so much. And I disagree with the "anybody else in West Asia" part. It's lower than in most of Turkey, Azerbaijan, much (not all) of Iran and of course the North Caucasus.
Georgians can have legit "North European" because they sometimes have North Caucasian influence. For example in the Laz the NE is lower than in Georgia proper.
Token
09-28-2021, 08:40 PM
A more interesting question is: why do Armenians have 1/3 the amount of steppe of Ancient Armenians? Clearly some dramatic population replacement took place in Armenia between the Iron Age and present day.
Target: ARM_MBA
Distance: 2.2630% / 0.02263044
41.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
33.4 RUS_Catacomb
15.2 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
10.2 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN
Target: ARM_LBA
Distance: 2.0271% / 0.02027069
34.0 RUS_Catacomb
31.2 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN
27.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
7.6 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
Target: Armenian_Hemsheni
Distance: 2.4482% / 0.02448186
56.8 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN
22.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
11.8 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
9.2 RUS_Catacomb
Target: Armenian_Erzurum
Distance: 1.3163% / 0.01316339
55.8 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
33.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
11.0 RUS_Catacomb
Target: Armenian
Distance: 0.9356% / 0.00935572
50.2 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
38.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
10.6 RUS_Catacomb
0.8 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN
A more interesting question is: why do Armenians have 1/3 the amount of steppe of Ancient Armenians? Clearly some dramatic population replacement took place in Armenia between the Iron Age and present day.
The Steppe-rich elite might have been gradually diluted among the commoners.
Zanzibar
09-29-2021, 12:49 AM
Georgians have noise-level to no steppe.
Sorry for my ignorance, but why do Georgians have very negligible to zero Steppe? Going by their geographic location which is located more north and closer to Russia, shouldn't they have more than Armenians?
FinalFlash
09-29-2021, 01:00 AM
A more interesting question is: why do Armenians have 1/3 the amount of steppe of Ancient Armenians? Clearly some dramatic population replacement took place in Armenia between the Iron Age and present day.
Target: ARM_MBA
Distance: 2.2630% / 0.02263044
41.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
33.4 RUS_Catacomb
15.2 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
10.2 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN
Target: ARM_LBA
Distance: 2.0271% / 0.02027069
34.0 RUS_Catacomb
31.2 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN
27.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
7.6 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
Target: Armenian_Hemsheni
Distance: 2.4482% / 0.02448186
56.8 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN
22.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
11.8 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
9.2 RUS_Catacomb
Target: Armenian_Erzurum
Distance: 1.3163% / 0.01316339
55.8 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
33.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
11.0 RUS_Catacomb
Target: Armenian
Distance: 0.9356% / 0.00935572
50.2 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
38.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
10.6 RUS_Catacomb
0.8 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN
It's possible that those samples aren't really even Armenian to begin with but just invaders, bandits, migrants and what have you. I find it really interesting that Caucasus Lowlands LN and Arm-Areni_C actually match up really well with Armenians today, and these predate the bronze age samples. In any case, this article states that genetic signals of population mixtures ceases after 1,200 BCE so it's unlikely that there's been a large population displacement in Armenia.
https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2015206
Btw, where did you find that Armenian_Erzurum reference?
FinalFlash
09-29-2021, 01:01 AM
The Steppe-rich elite might have been gradually diluted among the commoners.
Or, they were conquered and absorbed into the Armenian genepool.
FinalFlash
09-29-2021, 01:05 AM
Sorry for my ignorance, but why do Georgians have very negligible to zero Steppe? Going by their geographic location which is located more north and closer to Russia, shouldn't they have more than Armenians?
It's likely because they've been relatively more isolated and thus have managed to avoid contact with any steppe-rich population in terms of mixing with them. Also, geographic position doesn't matter much in this case because Iranians/Iranics, Tajiks and Afghans included, are even further South/Southeast of Armenia yet they are more steppe-rich than Armenians(barring a few Iranian exceptions)
FinalFlash
09-29-2021, 01:11 AM
Well, that was just one model. It will vary slightly depending on the model and on where an Armenian is from. 10% might be realistic, I agree. 15% - not so much. And I disagree with the "anybody else in West Asia" part. It's lower than in most of Turkey, Azerbaijan, much (not all) of Iran and of course the North Caucasus.
Georgians can have legit "North European" because they sometimes have North Caucasian influence. For example in the Laz the NE is lower than in Georgia proper.
I agree with you here. 15% on average is a bit of a stretch for Armenians but low 10s is realistic. When I said "everybody else in West Asia", I excluded Turks for obvious reasons-they're not exactly homogenous. If a Georgian has any actual steppe ancestry, it's likely due to being admixed with Russians or maybe Ossetians imho.
A more interesting question is: why do Armenians have 1/3 the amount of steppe of Ancient Armenians? Clearly some dramatic population replacement took place in Armenia between the Iron Age and present day.
Target: ARM_MBA
Distance: 2.2630% / 0.02263044
41.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
33.4 RUS_Catacomb
15.2 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
10.2 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN
Target: ARM_LBA
Distance: 2.0271% / 0.02027069
34.0 RUS_Catacomb
31.2 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN
27.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
7.6 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
Target: Armenian_Hemsheni
Distance: 2.4482% / 0.02448186
56.8 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN
22.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
11.8 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
9.2 RUS_Catacomb
Target: Armenian_Erzurum
Distance: 1.3163% / 0.01316339
55.8 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
33.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
11.0 RUS_Catacomb
Target: Armenian
Distance: 0.9356% / 0.00935572
50.2 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
38.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
10.6 RUS_Catacomb
0.8 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN
Because 95% of Ancient genomes are pseudo haploid, they are biased collectively towards the reference genome. This collective bias is you may have heard that ancients are attracted to each other. This can cause unpredictable problems when hetrozygous moderns are modelled with ancients. It’s best to use high quality hetrozygous ancients when possible.
Add to that inaccuracy within G25 coordinates
Also what is included in definition of steppe? Iron-Age steppe nomads or Bronze-Age Indo-Europeans? Both of these have none steppe ancestry and are not pure steppe. EHG or ANE may be a better indicator of steppe. Formal stats should be used for this purpose
Zanzibar
09-29-2021, 02:22 AM
It's likely because they've been relatively more isolated and thus have managed to avoid contact with any steppe-rich population in terms of mixing with them. Also, geographic position doesn't matter much in this case because Iranians/Iranics, Tajiks and Afghans included, are even further South/Southeast of Armenia yet they are more steppe-rich than Armenians(barring a few Iranian exceptions)
I see. Do Georgians live in more steep and mountainous areas which makes it harder for steppe-rich groups to interact and thus mix with them?
Make sense. Tajiks and Afghans are heavy Steppe admixed despite them being located more southern and farther away from Russia. Who has the second least Steppe in West Asia after Georgians? How much do Azeris from Azerbaijan and Iranian Azeris have?
Sterling Archer
09-29-2021, 07:29 AM
Who has the second least Steppe in West Asia after Georgians? How much do Azeris from Azerbaijan and Iranian Azeris have?
Azerbaijanis if anything might have more. Iranian will in general score less than the Azerbaijanis from the republic.
However, Azerbaijanis from north of the republic and those in Dagestan will score much higher steppe than Armenians and Georgians because they are heavily admixed with Dagestanis.
Look at my posts from West Asian Dodekad K12b thread.
For example this result from Zaqatala in the north is very typical for the regions Azerbaijanis (Dagestani ones might score even higher):
Gedrosia 24.05
Siberian 4.17
NW_African -
SE_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 5.84
North_European 17.87
South_Asian -
East_African -
SW_Asian 7.46
East_Asian 1.82
Caucasus 38.78
SSA -
harutsafaryan07
09-29-2021, 07:48 AM
@FinalFlash
From Here https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-97519-6
Armenian_Erzurum,0.106804,0.1384505,-0.0571338,-0.0621775,-0.0273897,-0.0182672,0.0034858,-0.0033843,-0.0300648,-0.00571,0.0044387,-0.0001497,-0.0010158,0.002156,-0.0042073,0.0008618,-0.0019122,0.0020693,0.0002723,-0.0007715,0.0016638,0.0028853,0.0004317,-0.0005823,0.000878
Also Georgians
Georgian_Ajar,0.110029,0.136081,-0.059208,-0.0508187,-0.0402127,-0.0120853,0.0067367,-0.0083843,-0.057812,-0.0160367,-0.001678,0.008692,-0.0222493,0.0040827,-4.5e-05,-0.0178997,0.0126037,-0.005152,-0.0068713,0.0153823,0.0086927,0.0059763,0.000945,-0.0094793,0.0021153
Georgian_Imer,0.1098393,0.1341514,-0.0608673,-0.0474487,-0.0385917,-0.0086178,0.0118211,-0.0062306,-0.0633613,-0.0185882,-0.0007469,0.0113599,-0.0254804,0.0059314,0.003841,-0.0239325,0.0072884,-0.0053717,-0.0101815,0.0153949,0.0138255,0.001657,0.0015406,-0.0076636,-0.0013892
Georgian_Jew,0.0993513,0.1299879,-0.0591541,-0.060724,-0.0277854,-0.0134666,0.0002014,-0.0053734,-0.0210953,-0.0040351,0.0032246,-0.0019696,0.0064347,0.0008454,-0.001144,0.007463,0.0010803,-0.0032577,0.0030887,-0.0019116,0.0027631,0.0039216,0.000493,-0.0037524,0.0039344
Georgian_Kakh,0.1063108,0.1322218,-0.0564174,-0.0463182,-0.0368068,-0.010542,0.006768,-0.0040614,-0.0511716,-0.0162918,0.0026956,0.0086022,-0.0136472,0.000853,-0.0016286,-0.0054892,0.01356,-0.0028378,-0.0048772,0.008954,0.0078362,0.0019538,-0.0002218,-0.0069406,-0.0002634
Georgian_Kart,0.1073728,0.130157,-0.0536768,-0.0431743,-0.0382123,-0.0050665,0.0055617,-0.0067305,-0.0499718,-0.0161888,0.001705,0.007793,-0.0170218,0.0048625,0.0016963,-0.0155795,0.0020425,-0.002766,-0.0052165,0.0078578,0.0071542,0.0037715,-0.0002465,-0.001406,-0.0004592
Georgian_Khevs,0.1124002,0.1238948,-0.0435575,-0.023579,-0.0400075,0.000976,0.0084015,-0.0036345,-0.055426,-0.024875,0.0026795,0.0090295,-0.0156095,-0.0017547,0.0073288,-0.0094138,0.0060302,-0.004244,-0.0069448,0.0104738,0.0072375,-0.0001238,0.0020953,0.004217,5.98e-05
Georgian_Laz,0.1100922,0.1386763,-0.0571549,-0.0583553,-0.0318008,-0.0112177,0.0087997,-0.0056537,-0.0501651,-0.0105697,0.0027967,0.0094498,-0.017542,0.0044269,-0.0039661,-0.0140766,0.0107784,-0.0014006,-0.0032542,0.0098937,0.0073273,0.0022258,-0.0002464,-0.0072699,-0.0011442
Georgian_Megr,0.109498,0.1289722,-0.0561156,-0.0468996,-0.0406844,-0.0081438,0.0102464,-0.0075226,-0.0665112,-0.0231438,0.0002598,0.013668,-0.028959,0.0066888,0.003176,-0.0263056,0.0094138,-0.0056756,-0.0107596,0.018709,0.0129272,0.0029432,-0.0010108,-0.0091578,-0.0024908
Georgian_Svan,0.1131404,0.1190202,-0.049252,-0.0391476,-0.043208,-0.0068048,0.0098236,-0.0032768,-0.0686792,-0.0276636,0.0010394,0.012469,-0.0283942,0.0049268,0.0032032,-0.0282946,0.0084228,-0.0074748,-0.0123184,0.0200846,0.0169202,0.0039322,0.004412,-0.0129896,-0.002347
Georgian_Tush,0.1149612,0.1216604,-0.041257,-0.0241604,-0.036376,0.001004,0.0100582,-0.0032768,-0.0544036,-0.022087,6.5e-05,0.008992,-0.0200094,-0.0036056,0.0078446,-0.0119066,0.0032854,-0.0016724,-0.0049274,0.0098548,0.0049662,-0.000173,0.001602,0,-0.0007902
they are available in G25 official sheets.
Frowning Man
09-29-2021, 08:35 AM
Sorry for my ignorance, but why do Georgians have very negligible to zero Steppe? Going by their geographic location which is located more north and closer to Russia, shouldn't they have more than Armenians?
Well, Georgians do not like to mix with strangers (even today, but perhaps I am mistaken about our days), earlier the Georgians were even more isolated due to their geographical location and rugged territory. 70% of the territory of Georgia is mountains and foothills, and there are many dense forests, and before they were even larger and difficult to pass, plus many rivers that make the territory even more isolated and difficult to pass.
Especially western Georgia.
Azerbaijanis if anything might have more. Iranian will in general score less than the Azerbaijanis from the republic.
However, Azerbaijanis from north of the republic and those in Dagestan will score much higher steppe than Armenians and Georgians because they are heavily admixed with Dagestanis.
Look at my posts from West Asian Dodekad K12b thread.
For example this result from Zaqatala in the north is very typical for the regions Azerbaijanis (Dagestani ones might score even higher):
Gedrosia 24.05
Siberian 4.17
NW_African -
SE_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 5.84
North_European 17.87
South_Asian -
East_African -
SW_Asian 7.46
East_Asian 1.82
Caucasus 38.78
SSA -
Why would anyone use North-European component as an indicator of steppe (ANE) in the first place when it has clearly been shown that ANE is higher in Caucasian populations (a/k/a Caucasian Component) than in North European populations ?
Now Steppe pops such as MLBA and IA did have high ANE in addition to non-steppe admixture
If anything N. European component would be a better indicator of WHG.
Also, if we had to pick between EHG and ANE as more “pure” steppe, then we should go with ANE since EHG has substantial non-steppe WHG.
With all this being said, a population that scores high “Caucasus” can easily have more ANE than a population that scores high “N.European” and a population that scores high “Gedrosian “ can even have more ANE, but nobody should use modern calculators with many components to calculate ANE or Steppe because modern components have other things besides ANE.
Sterling Archer
09-29-2021, 09:44 AM
Why would anyone use North-European component as an indicator of steppe (ANE) in the first place when it has clearly been shown that ANE is higher in Caucasian populations (a/k/a Caucasian Component) than in North European populations ?
My point was to highlight Dagestani admixture more than anything, hence probably higher steppe influence. Mountainous Dagestan is probably the most steppe heavy region in Western Asia, so it is the matter of "walks like a duck quacks like a duck".
Now you can of course use whatever reference you want to calculate steppe and I don't know what the result will be. But I suspect the guy I posted here will still score very high, as will most people from that region.
I won't argue with rest of your points regarding what should be the best proxy for steppe, as there are many opinions regarding this and I don't have any particular preference. I'll leave it at that.
My point was to highlight Dagestani admixture more than anything, hence probably higher steppe influence. Mountainous Dagestan is probably the most steppe heavy region in Western Asia, so it is the matter of "walks like a duck quacks like a duck".
Now you can of course use whatever reference you want to calculate steppe and I don't know what the result will be. But I suspect the guy I posted here will still score very high, as will most people from that region.
I won't argue with rest of your points regarding what should be the best proxy for steppe, as there are many opinions regarding this and I don't have any particular preference. I'll leave it at that.
Fair enough Dagestanis and Lezgins do score more ANE (thus more Steppe) than Europeans even though they score less N. European component than people from N. Europe which goes to prove my point that N. European component is a better predictor of WHG than Steppe.
With Dagestanis most of their Steppe or ANE is contained within their high Caucasus score just as it is with Georgians and Armenians whose ANE can be used to measure their Steppe admixture (they have less ANE and Steppe though than N. Caucasians). I don’t mean there is a one-to-one correlation between Caucausus component and ANE (Steppe) rather it’s a better predictor than N. European component. Doesn’t mean 2 people scoring 50% Caucausus will necessarily have same ANE (Steppe) because Caucauses component also contains other stuff such as EEF just like N. European component also contains EEF and WHG
Wrt to Steppe proxy I like ANE better than EHG because EHG has 25% plus non-steppe WHG.
However I still like EHG better than Yamnaya because Yamnaya has even higher non-Steppe admixture than EHG.
That’s why I like ANE as Steppe proxy
Token
09-29-2021, 11:01 AM
It's possible that those samples aren't really even Armenian to begin with but just invaders, bandits, migrants and what have you. I find it really interesting that Caucasus Lowlands LN and Arm-Areni_C actually match up really well with Armenians today, and these predate the bronze age samples.
Sounds like special pleading to me. Both samples are separated by nearly half a millennia, come from different locations, yet they form a fairly homogeneous group. As a group they can be perfectly modeled with qpAdm as a mixture of Catacomb and preceding South Caucasian farmers.
Armenia_MLBA
Catacomb 0.234±0.028
Kura-Araxes_Kaps 0.766±0.028
chisq 10.723
tail prob 0.826248
In any case, this article states that genetic signals of population mixtures ceases after 1,200 BCE so it's unlikely that there's been a large population displacement in Armenia.
https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2015206
The paper is entirely based on modern-day samples and you can't infer historic admixture events by looking only at modern-day people. Geneticists did this in the past, and they came to such fine conclusions like that the Irish are Basque, and that North Europeans have Amerindian admixture. The history of Armenia after the Iron Age is a huge mess, your country was ruled by literally half of Eurasia so there is absolutely no way Armenians stayed immune from gene flow during all these events.
Hektor12
09-29-2021, 11:05 AM
A more interesting question is: why do Armenians have 1/3 the amount of steppe of Ancient Armenians? Clearly some dramatic population replacement took place in Armenia between the Iron Age and present day.
Does this explain?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c4/Artaxiad_Armenia_80BC-fr.svg/1280px-Artaxiad_Armenia_80BC-fr.svg.png
catgeorge
09-29-2021, 11:11 AM
Original R1b Steppe Lords.
Mejgusu
09-29-2021, 11:33 AM
Do Georgians have higher or lower Steppe than Armenians?
Higher.
A more interesting question is: why do Armenians have 1/3 the amount of steppe of Ancient Armenians? Clearly some dramatic population replacement took place in Armenia between the Iron Age and present day.
There wasn’t any replacement, Anatolia never had a huge genetic input from IE conquerors, although personally I only saw one Hittite sample it seems the only influence which they had were linguistically, neither genetically nor culturally they influenced the pre-Hittite Anatolians. There are actually 2 facts that everyone ignores: First one, Armenian civilization was dominant in that region, even until 19th century during Ottoman era. That means they clearly absorbed a lot of non-Armenian populations, which shared similar cultural qualities. When Turks conquered Anatolia, Eastern and especially SE-parts of nowadays Turkey had a huge population of Semitic-speaking Christians like Assyrians and Arameans which were definitely absorbed by Armenians which explains why they are more southern then their neighbors. Secondly I always thought and still think that Armenians are descendants of Urartians. They are good points which are supporting they were clearly related to Caucasian ppl like Chechens, here I am asking how they got highly steppe influenced and Urartians not(honestly I never saw Urartrian samples). Greeks in the west, Turks and Iranics brought sll the steppe which exists in Anatolia nowadays.
I see. Do Georgians live in more steep and mountainous areas which makes it harder for steppe-rich groups to interact and thus mix with them?
Make sense. Tajiks and Afghans are heavy Steppe admixed despite them being located more southern and farther away from Russia. Who has the second least Steppe in West Asia after Georgians? How much do Azeris from Azerbaijan and Iranian Azeris have?
Well, East Iranics have more steppe since there is a disparity of steppe influence on the migration route of IE people. And it is not true, Georgians aren’t the least steppe influenced population in Westasia(I think you mean North Westasia like Turkey, Caucasus and Iran?) Armenians have the least following by Turkeys NE-blacksea region. Azerbaijanis have the same amount of steppe like Central and Eastern Anatolian Turks(8-10% North Europe) and their neighboring Iranic and Caucasian groups(6-18% North Europe).
FinalFlash
09-29-2021, 12:32 PM
Higher.
There wasn’t any replacement, Anatolia never had a huge genetic input from IE conquerors, although personally I only saw one Hittite sample it seems the only influence which they had were linguistically, neither genetically nor culturally they influenced the pre-Hittite Anatolians. There are actually 2 facts that everyone ignores: First one, Armenian civilization was dominant in that region, even until 19th century during Ottoman era. That means they clearly absorbed a lot of non-Armenian populations, which shared similar cultural qualities. When Turks conquered Anatolia, Eastern and especially SE-parts of nowadays Turkey had a huge population of Semitic-speaking Christians like Assyrians and Arameans which were definitely absorbed by Armenians which explains why they are more southern then their neighbors. Secondly I always thought and still think that Armenians are descendants of Urartians. They are good points which are supporting they were clearly related to Caucasian ppl like Chechens, here I am asking how they got highly steppe influenced and Urartians not(honestly I never saw Urartrian samples). Greeks in the west, Turks and Iranics brought sll the steppe which exists in Anatolia nowadays.
Well, East Iranics have more steppe since there is a disparity of steppe influence on the migration route of IE people. And it is not true, Georgians aren’t the least steppe influenced population in Westasia(I think you mean North Westasia like Turkey, Caucasus and Iran?) Armenians have the least following by Turkeys NE-blacksea region. Azerbaijanis have the same amount of steppe like Central and Eastern Anatolian Turks(8-10% North Europe) and their neighboring Iranic and Caucasian groups(6-18% North Europe).
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
Mejgusu
09-29-2021, 12:49 PM
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
I obviously do, but if you disagree with my points you can explain your counterarguments, its not like I am against others opinions.
FinalFlash
09-29-2021, 01:07 PM
I obviously do, but if you disagree with my points you can explain your counterarguments, its not like I am against others opinions.
You really don't. For starters, Anatolia=\=Armenian Highland. When the Turks conquered Western Armenia, this region was predominantly Armenian with almost no traces of Assyrians(unless you count the southeastern fringes of Turkey), nevermind Arameans. Your assertions that Armenians have assimilated some mythical semitic-speaking group to the point of substantial genetic altering isn't rooted in reality, but only conjecture. You've a very poor understanding of Armenians if you think that they would absorb a population by simply virtue of existing in close proximity to a certain ethnic group. Had that been the case, then our genepool should have noticeably altered with the many invasions of various ethnic groups in our region, particularly over the course of the last few centuries. Yet funny enough, Armenians are actually fairly homogenous as a group.
I do agree in one thing with you in that we probably won't have a full picture as far as the genetic legacy of Armenians until they somehow excavate some bones from Western Armenia.
Also, Georgians do NOT score steppe admixture. Certainly not the Georgian_Imer reference that's been used so far. Lol@ Armenians having less steppe than E. Black sea peoples.
It's funny too because you make it seem like you know these things as a matter of fact judging by the way you write but you clearly don't.
Armenians are still more southern than Georgians and visibly darker.
FinalFlash
09-29-2021, 01:16 PM
Armenians are still more southern than Georgians and visibly darker.
So is everybody else south of Georgia. How is this relevant? Lol
So is everybody else south of Georgia. How is this relevant? Lol
That makes people think they're more Northern European. I'm still not convinced they're nearly zero Steppe.
FinalFlash
09-29-2021, 01:25 PM
That makes people think they're more Northern European. I'm still not convinced they're nearly zero Steppe.
They're CHG-heavy, particularly their western portion. They may have less steppe than their southern neighbors, but they don't have as much 'dark' components as their southern neighbors. I just checked the oracles for Georgian_Tusheti and Khevsur and they seem to get some NE Caucasians very high on their oracles. They're very noticeably different to Imeretians for instance. I think Georgians are more heterogenous than I suspected.
They're CHG-heavy, particularly their western portion. They may have less steppe than their southern neighbors, but they don't have as much 'dark' components as their southern neighbors. I just checked the oracles for Georgian_Tusheti and Khevsur and they seem to get some NE Caucasians very high on their oracles. They're very noticeably different to Imeretians for instance. I think Georgians are more heterogenous than I suspected.
Yeah, Eastern, Northeastern Georgia is definitely part North Caucasian, no doubt about it. Certain Georgians are pushing the idea that only Western Georgians are the pure Kartvelians whereas the others are mongrelized Armenians or some shit like that.
Mejgusu
09-29-2021, 01:35 PM
You really don't. For starters, Anatolia=\=Armenian Highland. When the Turks conquered Western Armenia, this region was predominantly Armenian with almost no traces of Assyrians(unless you count the southeastern fringes of Turkey), nevermind Arameans. Your assertions that Armenians have assimilated some mythical semitic-speaking group to the point of substantial genetic altering isn't rooted in reality, but only conjecture. You've a very poor understanding of Armenians if you think that they would absorb a population by simply virtue of existing in close proximity to a certain ethnic group. Had that been the case, then our genepool should have noticeably altered with the many invasions of various ethnic groups in our region, particularly over the course of the last few centuries. Yet funny enough, Armenians are actually fairly homogenous as a group.
Like I said, Eastern and especially, this especially you should read, SE-parts of nowadays Turkey. Besides of that it is true that those parts had huge amount of Christian and (even Jewish) Semitic speaker, thats not assuming but historical facts. Armenians lived in many parts of Eastern/SE-Anatolia/Transcaucasia, most of these regions were multiethnic. Genetically no one is more southern than Armenians in that region, even non-Turkic Turks aren’t that southern. Also calling Assyrians and Arameans as mythical is escapist, they were an important group there even when Turks arrived that region. Actually it is also true, that no one left besides of language anything in Anatolia, neither in Armenian highlands. Considering that literally every other group who came after first IE conquerors there have immense genetic influence from steppe in that region is just supporting my point. All those groups are genetically, historically and linguistically different to Armenians. Since you are mentioning all those different groups who invaded that region, that is just another proof that many Non-Armenians were absorbed by Armenians, because their identity were strong enough to withstand foreign influences, I mean until the cultural characteristics were similar. You are right, Armenians aren’t heterogeneous group, I never said that.
Also, Georgians do NOT score steppe admixture. Certainly not the Georgian_Imer reference that's been used so far. Lol@ Armenians having less steppe than E. Black sea peoples.
Thats true, most Georgians have more steppe, there is a nice thread which was opened recently I have a link here, you can look at the results if you want: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?351954-Georgian-regional-samples-(Dodecad-K12b)
And yes, Eastern Blacksea region has more individuals with more steppe than most Armenians. But not much more than Armenians, thats true.
It's funny too because you make it seem like you know these things as a matter of fact judging by the way you write but you clearly don't.
I think we are all just amateurs here with not real academic qualifications, but I think at least some here have decent knowledge about that region in general. We are sharing informations and discuss to expand our knowledge, and I like it too even if I am wrong. Maybe I am not 100% sure but 105% that what I said here is, at least the substance, is true. If you are ready to talk maturely, I would be appreciated to discuss even we don’t agree with each other.
catgeorge
09-29-2021, 01:35 PM
I obviously do, but if you disagree with my points you can explain your counterarguments, its not like I am against others opinions.
You don't - R1b coming from Kura Araxes and descending down from Pontic Steppes is not really up for debate unless you have low IQ. The mark of ancient tribes and kingdoms especially from R1b is pretty much set in stone from 90% of anthropologists unless you enjoy twisting history to uphold an agenda.
FinalFlash
09-29-2021, 01:54 PM
Yeah, Eastern, Northeastern Georgia is definitely part North Caucasian, no doubt about it. Certain Georgians are pushing the idea that only Western Georgians are the pure Kartvelians whereas the others are mongrelized Armenians or some shit like that.
Yet at the same time they love to claim Khevsurs and Tushets lol
Frowning Man
09-29-2021, 02:09 PM
That makes people think they're more Northern European. I'm still not convinced they're nearly zero Steppe.
I hoped that the Georgians have the smallest steppe admixture in the North and South Caucasus and the largest CHG.
Yeah, Eastern, Northeastern Georgia is definitely part North Caucasian, no doubt about it. Certain Georgians are pushing the idea that only Western Georgians are the pure Kartvelians whereas the others are mongrelized Armenians or some shit like that.
Yes, Western Georgians = real Georgians). Samegrelo, Imeretia, Guria, Svaneti, Racha, Lechkhumi, Svaneti, Abkhazia.
Eastern Georgians = More mixed, but also good guys, mentally and in general they are more familiar to you in Russia)
I do not know why, genetically northeasterns differ from the western ones, this is not surprising, given that they loved to raid the North Caucasians, but if I talked about what I see, outwardly they always seemed to me similar to the western ones.
Frowning Man
09-29-2021, 02:14 PM
Yet at the same time they love to claim Khevsurs and Tushets lol
?
Sterling Archer
09-29-2021, 02:16 PM
I hoped that the Georgians have the smallest steppe admixture in the North and South Caucasus and the largest CHG.
Yes, Western Georgians = real Georgians). Samegrelo, Imeretia, Guria, Svaneti, Racha, Lechkhumi, Svaneti, Abkhazia.
Eastern Georgians = More mixed, but also good guys, mentally and in general they are more familiar to you in Russia)
I do not know why, genetically northeasterns differ from the western ones, this is not surprising, given that they loved to raid the North Caucasians, but if I talked about what I see, outwardly they always seemed to me similar to the western ones.
I watch MMA so I'll ask a related question. What is the ancestry of Giga Chikadze? Is he Western or Eastern Georgian?
https://www.ufc.com/athlete/giga-chikadze
Frowning Man
09-29-2021, 02:19 PM
I watch MMA so I'll ask a related question. What is the ancestry of Giga Chikadze? Is he Western or Eastern Georgian?
https://www.ufc.com/athlete/giga-chikadze
For me, he looks more like an Armenian, well, at least if I didn’t know who he is and would have seen him, I would have thought that he was Armenian.
He is originally from Tbilisi southeastern Georgia.
From other Georgians to MMA.
Dvalishvili Western Georgian from Imereti, Vani region, this is the very west of Imeretia, next to Megrelia and Guria.
Roman Dolidze from Adjara.
Sterling Archer
09-29-2021, 02:21 PM
For me, he looks more like an Armenian, well, at least if I didn’t know who he is and would have seen him, I would have thought that he was Armenian.
He is originally from Tbilisi southeastern Georgia.
There is also this one named Topuria: https://www.ufc.com/athlete/ilia-topuria
Lives in Spain but is ethnic Georgian.
Frowning Man
09-29-2021, 02:26 PM
There is also this one named Topuria: https://www.ufc.com/athlete/ilia-topuria
Lives in Spain but is ethnic Georgian.
He was born in not Georgia, it is difficult to say something about him. He also has a brother.
Well, there are Merab Dvalishvili and Roman Dolidze. If we talk about facial features, then they two are more like Georgians.
Sterling Archer
09-29-2021, 02:30 PM
He was born in not Georgia, it is difficult to say something about him. He also has a brother.
Well, there are Merab Dvalishvili and Roman Dolidze. If we talk about facial features, then they two are more like Georgians.
Hmm, they all look largely normal to me and to what I saw in Georgia. Anyway, thanks for answer.
To the Armenian members. Do you have any Armeno-Tat samples? I'm very interested in them and wonderwhether they will plot similar to the mountain Jews or not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armeno-Tats
FinalFlash
09-29-2021, 02:48 PM
Like I said, Eastern and especially, this especially you should read, SE-parts of nowadays Turkey. Besides of that it is true that those parts had huge amount of Christian and (even Jewish) Semitic speaker, thats not assuming but historical facts. Armenians lived in many parts of Eastern/SE-Anatolia/Transcaucasia, most of these regions were multiethnic. Genetically no one is more southern than Armenians in that region, even non-Turkic Turks aren’t that southern. Also calling Assyrians and Arameans as mythical is escapist, they were an important group there even when Turks arrived that region. Actually it is also true, that no one left besides of language anything in Anatolia, neither in Armenian highlands. Considering that literally every other group who came after first IE conquerors there have immense genetic influence from steppe in that region is just supporting my point. All those groups are genetically, historically and linguistically different to Armenians. Since you are mentioning all those different groups who invaded that region, that is just another proof that many Non-Armenians were absorbed by Armenians, because their identity were strong enough to withstand foreign influences, I mean until the cultural characteristics were similar. You are right, Armenians aren’t heterogeneous group, I never said that.
Thats true, most Georgians have more steppe, there is a nice thread which was opened recently I have a link here, you can look at the results if you want: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?351954-Georgian-regional-samples-(Dodecad-K12b)
And yes, Eastern Blacksea region has more individuals with more steppe than most Armenians. But not much more than Armenians, thats true.
I think we are all just amateurs here with not real academic qualifications, but I think at least some here have decent knowledge about that region in general. We are sharing informations and discuss to expand our knowledge, and I like it too even if I am wrong. Maybe I am not 100% sure but 105% that what I said here is, at least the substance, is true. If you are ready to talk maturely, I would be appreciated to discuss even we don’t agree with each other.
Again, you are wrong in your claims. Western Armenia has historically been predominantly Armenian. Only during the latter period of the Ottoman Empire did we start to see a gradual shift in demographics, especially Kurdish transplants from the 18th century onwards. Historically, these regions have never been multiethnic in the way that you're trying to portray them to be. It's been predominantly Armenian with a minority of different ethnic groups sprinkled around but that doesn't prove nor imply that there has been this massive genetic shift in the region as it pertains to Armenians. Also, Assyrians, numerically have always been irrelevant in the Armenian Highland when compared to the native population. ONLY the fringes of modern day SE Turkey(Hakkari) had any sizeable Assyrian communities and even then, their numbers have been and still are greater in their native homeland of Northern Iraq. Yet, that still doesn't prove that Armenians have absorbed Assyrians into their genepool en masse. My point is that unless you have solid evidence of a gradual shift in genetics, then what you are saying is simply hearsay and conjecture. Invasions does not constitute a genetic shift in DNA. The Turks have invaded 3 different continents but haven't left much of a genetic trace outside of modern-day Turkey for example. Russians have controlled and still influence the Transcaucasus region yet they've left very little genetic traces there. How would a numerically insignificant, and quite insular community I may add, impact the genepool of a much larger group of Armenians? Again, your claims are farfetched and downright comical when you really think about it.
As for your assertions that Armenians are southern-shifted for the region- this is incorrect.
Distance to: Armenian_updated_scaled
0.01310651 Armenian
0.01682705 Armenian_Erzurum
0.02330422 Turkish_Trabzon
0.02382405 Greek_Trabzon
0.02675079 Assyrian
0.02718213 Georgian_Jew
0.02807498 Armenian_Hemsheni
0.02980514 Udi
0.03184180 Mountain_Jew
0.03352390 Greek_Cappadocia
0.03571294 Georgian_Laz
0.03637322 Turkish_East
0.03708204 Ahiska
0.03763188 Georgian_Kart
0.03859968 Georgian_Kakh
0.03903776 Iranian_Jew
0.04097301 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.04419188 Kurdish
0.04519228 Iraqi_Jew
0.04718715 Ezid
0.04860084 Azerbaijani_Turkey
0.04873394 Talysh_Azerbaijan
0.04898728 Georgian_Ajar
0.04913171 Turkish_Kayseri
0.05207736 Lebanese_Druze
You can clearly see that the closest populations to Armenians are Trabzonians, Assyrians, Laz, Udi, Southeastern Georgians, Eastern Turks and Cappadocian Greeks. Based off of this data, what exactly makes Armenians southern-shifted? Relative to who? The genetic similarities to various neighboring populations makes sense on account of them being NEIGHBORING populations.
As for Georgians having steppe:
Target: Armenian_updated_scaled
Distance: 1.6816% / 0.01681562
46.6 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
26.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
11.2 RUS_Catacomb
10.2 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
5.8 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN
Target: Georgian_Tush
Distance: 1.7293% / 0.01729258
53.8 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
25.6 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
20.6 RUS_Catacomb
Target: Georgian_Svan
Distance: 3.4895% / 0.03489517
90.6 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
5.6 RUS_Catacomb
3.8 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
Target: Georgian_Megr
Distance: 2.8832% / 0.02883171
87.6 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
11.0 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
1.4 RUS_Catacomb
Target: Georgian_Laz
Distance: 1.5775% / 0.01577479
54.0 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
43.0 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
3.0 RUS_Catacomb
Target: Georgian_Khevs
Distance: 1.4371% / 0.01437127
56.4 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
23.6 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
20.0 RUS_Catacomb
Target: Georgian_Kart
Distance: 1.4402% / 0.01440218
56.2 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
34.0 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
9.8 RUS_Catacomb
Target: Georgian_Kakh
Distance: 1.5031% / 0.01503082
53.0 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
34.0 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
7.8 RUS_Catacomb
5.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
Target: Georgian_Imer
Distance: 2.1640% / 0.02164027
83.8 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
15.6 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
0.6 RUS_Catacomb
Target: Georgian_Ajar
Distance: 2.0146% / 0.02014587
72.2 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
26.4 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
1.4 RUS_Catacomb
Just as I suspected, Georgians are more heterogenous than I thought. I've always said that they've been overrepresented in Anthrofora by Imeretians who have almost zero steppe. Some other Westerners have them in trace amounts. But the big ones are the Eastern Georgians. Khevsurs and Tushets have 20% steppe which is kind of surprising, yet not at the same time. Kakhetians and Kartulians have about 8-10% steppe, almost as much as Armenians do.
As for Trabzonians
Target: Turkish_Trabzon
Distance: 1.4731% / 0.01473149
66.8 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
26.2 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
7.0 RUS_Catacomb
Target: Greek_Trabzon
Distance: 1.5434% / 0.01543427
62.2 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
32.0 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
5.8 RUS_Catacomb
You can see that Trabzonians also DO NOT score more steppe than Armenians. This is true for most Georgians as well, with the exception of Khevsurs and Tushets. These two are starting to look more like assimilated Ossetians or something if I'm honest.
No offense, but you're using resorting to information from a decade ago. A lot of new information has been discovered since the days when Gedmatch reigned supreme. You should probably consider using the newer tools that are at your disposable instead of relying on outdated, and now, incorrect information.
I'm not sure if Armenians are partially assimilated Semitics as Gecko believes but Assyrians are moderately similar to Armenians, that's true.
Zanzibar
09-29-2021, 04:33 PM
You really don't. For starters, Anatolia=\=Armenian Highland. When the Turks conquered Western Armenia, this region was predominantly Armenian with almost no traces of Assyrians(unless you count the southeastern fringes of Turkey), nevermind Arameans. Your assertions that Armenians have assimilated some mythical semitic-speaking group to the point of substantial genetic altering isn't rooted in reality, but only conjecture. You've a very poor understanding of Armenians if you think that they would absorb a population by simply virtue of existing in close proximity to a certain ethnic group. Had that been the case, then our genepool should have noticeably altered with the many invasions of various ethnic groups in our region, particularly over the course of the last few centuries. Yet funny enough, Armenians are actually fairly homogenous as a group.
I do agree in one thing with you in that we probably won't have a full picture as far as the genetic legacy of Armenians until they somehow excavate some bones from Western Armenia.
Also, Georgians do NOT score steppe admixture. Certainly not the Georgian_Imer reference that's been used so far. Lol@ Armenians having less steppe than E. Black sea peoples.
It's funny too because you make it seem like you know these things as a matter of fact judging by the way you write but you clearly don't.
After Georgians, who have the second least Steppe in the region?
FinalFlash
09-29-2021, 04:51 PM
After Georgians, who have the second least Steppe in the region?
E. Black sea groups.
Zanzibar
09-29-2021, 04:54 PM
E. Black sea groups.
Hmm such as Pontic Greeks from Trabzon and Trabzon Turks and Laz?
FinalFlash
09-29-2021, 05:04 PM
Hmm such as Pontic Greeks from Trabzon and Trabzon Turks and Laz?
Target: Turkish_Trabzon
Distance: 1.4731% / 0.01473149
66.8 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
26.2 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
7.0 RUS_Catacomb
Target: Greek_Trabzon
Distance: 1.5434% / 0.01543427
62.2 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
32.0 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
5.8 RUS_Catacomb
Target: Georgian_Laz
Distance: 1.5775% / 0.01577479
54.0 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
43.0 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
3.0 RUS_Catacomb
Also, Georgians do NOT score steppe admixture. Certainly not the Georgian_Imer reference that's been used so far.
.
It’s impossible that Georgians or any other peoples in that area are able to stay insulated from Steppe genes being that they’ve been surrounded by people with Steppe genes for thousands of years (they’re not exactly islanders on some island in the middle of nowhere)
Whatever method you’re using to arrive at that conclusion must be flawed.
On a different point CHG is rich in ANE and Georgians are rich in CHG but I don’t think ANE counts as Steppe for you
FinalFlash
09-29-2021, 05:11 PM
It’s impossible that Georgians or any other peoples in that area are able to stay insulated from Steppe genes being that they’ve been surrounded by people with Steppe genes for thousands of years (they’re not exactly islanders on some island in the middle of nowhere)
Whatever method you’re using to arrive at that conclusion must be flawed.
On a different point CHG is rich in ANE and Georgians are rich in CHG but I don’t think ANE counts as Steppe for you
Khevsurs and Tushetians do have quite a bit now that we actually have more Georgian references. Kakhetians and Kartulians have almost as much as Armenians as well. It's their western counterparts- notably Megrels, Svans, and Imeretians that have very little to no steppe admix based off of G25. Coincidentally, their western counterparts are extremely Maykop-like while their Eastern/Southern countrymen are more steppe and Arslanteppe-admixed. I'm honestly not quite sure what ANE is supposed to resemble but is there an ANE reference available on G25?
Impaler
09-29-2021, 05:38 PM
Do you have any results from Abovyan? How would you guess their results?
FinalFlash
09-29-2021, 05:51 PM
Do you have any results from Abovyan? How would you guess their results?
Abovyantsis are mostly repats from Iran post-WWII. If Oszkar07's wife is any indication as well as Mingle's friend and his dad, then they would score like Eastern Armenians.
@FinalFlash You haven't tested after all these years, show me your Steppe ancestry please :D
FinalFlash
09-29-2021, 06:52 PM
@FinalFlash You haven't tested after all these years, show me your Steppe ancestry please :D
Don't tempt me, I just may :D
Philippos01
09-29-2021, 07:00 PM
no its not true,the original proto indo-european homeland is western ukraine to southern urals
Philippos01
09-29-2021, 07:07 PM
Armenians are not have ındo-european genes and they are not european their genetic is mostly middle eastern ,to understand, it is enough to go to armenia and go out on the street.
Philippos01
09-29-2021, 07:12 PM
armenians are not have proto indo-european genes and they are not european, their genetic is mostly middle eastern, to understand it is enough to go to armenia and go out to street.
Nurzat
09-29-2021, 07:32 PM
since mothers pass down language and CHG ancestry in IE came from the maternal side, it could be that PIE came to the steppe from the Caucasus, who knows. could the ancestor of Uralic languages be the EHG language instead?
Mejgusu
09-29-2021, 09:00 PM
...
I say this for second time, especially in SE-parts of Turkey, there were an undeniable and huge population of Semitic speaking population, even huge Jewish communities. The absorption of them probably happened either already before Turkish migration and those who I mentioned were absorbed by local Arabs or the absorption happened after the beginning of Turkish rule. 18th century is something different than 11/12th century.
Also idk which calculators you use but everything which claims Georgians are less steppe is a bad calculator. We clearly have enough Georgian samples which underlines their visible steppe ancestry. Turks, Kurds, Azerbaijanis, Georgians, Northern Caucasians and Persians, all neighboring people with different ethnogenesis, all clearly have more steppe, but why Armenians rarely? Compared to all of them, Armenians definitely have a very southern shifted admixture. No one here is using outdated or whatever samples or sources, it is a fact that Armenians are genetically simply native, I don’t mean it badly, it is just a fact. Armenians are Armenians with their own history, culture and language, the fact they aren’t steppe influenced doesn’t change anything.
FinalFlash
09-29-2021, 09:26 PM
I say this for second time, especially in SE-parts of Turkey, there were an undeniable and huge population of Semitic speaking population, even huge Jewish communities. The absorption of them probably happened either already before Turkish migration and those who I mentioned were absorbed by local Arabs or the absorption happened after the beginning of Turkish rule. 18th century is something different than 11/12th century.
Also idk which calculators you use but everything which claims Georgians are less steppe is a bad calculator. We clearly have enough Georgian samples which underlines their visible steppe ancestry. Turks, Kurds, Azerbaijanis, Georgians, Northern Caucasians and Persians, all neighboring people with different ethnogenesis, all clearly have more steppe, but why Armenians rarely? Compared to all of them, Armenians definitely have a very southern shifted admixture. No one here is using outdated or whatever samples or sources, it is a fact that Armenians are genetically simply native, I don’t mean it badly, it is just a fact. Armenians are Armenians with their own history, culture and language, the fact they aren’t steppe influenced doesn’t change anything.
"Probably". Again with the conjecture. You still haven't provided any evidence that Armenians have supposedly absorbed some large semitic-speaking population into the genepool. Again, the SE fringes of what is modern-day Turkey may have had an Assyrian presence, but there is ZERO EVIDENCE that they have been absorbed into any population. As a matter of fact, leading up to the genocide of the early 20th century, there was STILL an Assyrian presence in that fringe region. So the onus of proof is still on you.
The calculator I use is global 25. It's far superior to Gedmatch especially because of the plethora of samples available and allows you to model any population with ideal fit distances(assuming you understand how to use it). Gedmatch often times gives bland and generic categories like "west asian" which doesn't explain anything and often uses models with bad fits.
-No, Georgians having less steppe overall(with the exception of Khevsurs and Tusheti) than Armenians is an undeniable fact. Just because it doesn't fall in line with your false narrative doesn't mean it's not true. I JUST SHOWED IT TO YOU.
-Trabzon Turks have less steppe than Armenians do. I also showed this to you. Eastern Turks are more or less on par.
-I know most Turks and most Iranians have a bit more steppe than Armenians, that is not the discussion here at all.
As for Armenians being very southern-shifted; I've proven to you that Armenians genetically are closest to neighboring populations. YOU SAW THE ORACLE and now you're going to pretend it never happened?
Also, you still haven't answered my question. Armenians are southern-shifted relative to who?
Dr_Maul
09-29-2021, 10:35 PM
Azerbaijanis if anything might have more. Iranian will in general score less than the Azerbaijanis from the republic.
However, Azerbaijanis from north of the republic and those in Dagestan will score much higher steppe than Armenians and Georgians because they are heavily admixed with Dagestanis.
Look at my posts from West Asian Dodekad K12b thread.
For example this result from Zaqatala in the north is very typical for the regions Azerbaijanis (Dagestani ones might score even higher):
Gedrosia 24.05
Siberian 4.17
NW_African -
SE_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 5.84
North_European 17.87
South_Asian -
East_African -
SW_Asian 7.46
East_Asian 1.82
Caucasus 38.78
SSA -
iranians are more steppe than azerbaijanis, at least on G25 which is much more reliable
N euro doesn't equal steppe judging by the amount that Georgians and Baloch score, seems to be skewed by gedrosia
Dr_Maul
09-29-2021, 10:48 PM
A more interesting question is: why do Armenians have 1/3 the amount of steppe of Ancient Armenians? Clearly some dramatic population replacement took place in Armenia between the Iron Age and present day.
Target: ARM_MBA
Distance: 2.2630% / 0.02263044
41.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
33.4 RUS_Catacomb
15.2 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
10.2 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN
Target: ARM_LBA
Distance: 2.0271% / 0.02027069
34.0 RUS_Catacomb
31.2 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN
27.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
7.6 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
Target: Armenian_Hemsheni
Distance: 2.4482% / 0.02448186
56.8 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN
22.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
11.8 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
9.2 RUS_Catacomb
Target: Armenian_Erzurum
Distance: 1.3163% / 0.01316339
55.8 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
33.2 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
11.0 RUS_Catacomb
Target: Armenian
Distance: 0.9356% / 0.00935572
50.2 TUR_Arslantepe_EBA
38.4 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
10.6 RUS_Catacomb
0.8 AZE_Caucasus_lowlands_LN
Those samples seem more Iranic than armenian, at least Lchachen, modern Armenia isn't exactly the proto armenian homeland
TheOldNorth
09-30-2021, 12:58 AM
The one in which genetic evidence says they come from Ukraine, you know like what all of the scientists actually say
Sterling Archer
09-30-2021, 06:31 AM
iranians are more steppe than azerbaijanis, at least on G25 which is much more reliable
N euro doesn't equal steppe judging by the amount that Georgians and Balloch plus Dagestani score, seems to be skewed by gedrosia
I did make sure to mention that I meant the Northern part of the country plus Dagestani Azeris(they definetly score higher) , who score higher steppe. The rest of the population is probably little different than their southern neighbors when it comes to this.
Sterling Archer
09-30-2021, 11:10 AM
This was posted in the Azerbaijani DNA project and I found it interesting.
Armenian from Qaradag, Iran:
Gedrosia 19.00
Siberian -
NW_African -
SE_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 10.07
North_European 9.68
South_Asian 0.08
East_African 0.52
SW_Asian 14.06
East_Asian -
Caucasus 46.60
SSA -
Distance to: Arm_iran
3.75860346 Udi_Azerbaijan
4.14504523 Turk_East
5.15026213 Armenian_East
7.85956742 Armenian_West
8.47303370 Turk_Ahiska
8.53241466 Dersim
8.92266216 Azerbaijani_Turkey
8.97924273 Azeri_Jew
9.06856108 Assyrian_North
9.10692045 Azerbaijani_Republic
9.32551339 Assyrian_West
9.52565483 Assyrian_South
9.58386143 Kurd_Kurmanji
9.77867578 Turk_Central_East
10.05471531 Talysh_Azerbaijan
catgeorge
09-30-2021, 04:19 PM
The one in which genetic evidence says they come from Ukraine, you know like what all of the scientists actually say
Only forum scientists say that though. There is no real eligibility to this fact. Even if there was it came from somewhere.
Arzanene
10-01-2021, 01:49 AM
This was posted in the Azerbaijani DNA project and I found it interesting.
Armenian from Qaradag, Iran:
Gedrosia 19.00
Siberian -
NW_African -
SE_Asian -
Atlantic_Med 10.07
North_European 9.68
South_Asian 0.08
East_African 0.52
SW_Asian 14.06
East_Asian -
Caucasus 46.60
SSA -
Distance to: Arm_iran
3.75860346 Udi_Azerbaijan
4.14504523 Turk_East
5.15026213 Armenian_East
7.85956742 Armenian_West
8.47303370 Turk_Ahiska
8.53241466 Dersim
8.92266216 Azerbaijani_Turkey
8.97924273 Azeri_Jew
9.06856108 Assyrian_North
9.10692045 Azerbaijani_Republic
9.32551339 Assyrian_West
9.52565483 Assyrian_South
9.58386143 Kurd_Kurmanji
9.77867578 Turk_Central_East
10.05471531 Talysh_Azerbaijan
can you also post his mdlp k16 results if you have his kit number?
Target: Armenian_Gharadagh
Distance: 1.3435% / 1.34345976 | ADC: 0.25x RC
55.7 Armenian_East
26.9 Assyrian_North
14.7 Lezgin
2.7 Latvian
Target: Armenian_Gharadagh
Distance: 1.6326% / 1.63262747 | ADC: 0.25x RC
49.2 Armenian_West
25.1 Assyrian_North
14.1 Chechen
9.8 Dargin_Kaitag
1.8 Lithuanian
Arzanene
10-01-2021, 02:06 AM
The Armenian kits I have found with the highest possible indo european admixture only are about 10-17%. most usually only have 3-5%, it gets masked as balkan or Italian results like this kit I found
Target: Armenian_Iran4
Distance: 0.7877% / 0.78765867
74.8 Armenian_EastArmenia
10.3 English_GBR
7.1 Georgian_Kakheti
2.9 Pathan
2.5 Sardinian
2.4 BedouinB
Target: Armenian_Iran4
Distance: 4.0207% / 4.02067921 | ADC: 1x RC
82.5 Armenians
17.5 Greek-Macedonia
Sterling Archer
10-01-2021, 08:10 AM
can you also post his mdlp k16 results if you have his kit number?
Sadly I don't have the kit number.
most usually only have 3-5%, it gets masked as balkan or Italian results like this kit I found
True, this is an outlier. Usually Armenians score way less "euro".
I assume the ancestors of this person were probably Udi who got assimilated into the Armenian population. Sort of like how the part of Udis that adopted islam assimilated into Azerbaijani.
TheOldNorth
10-01-2021, 01:09 PM
Only forum scientists say that though. There is no real eligibility to this fact. Even if there was it came from somewhere.
But that’s just not true? The kurgan hypothesis was admitted to be correct even by the creator of the Anatolian theory, dna evidence shows that a steppe related people brought R1b to Europe and R1a to both Europe and India and Iran, and are thus THE indo Europeans
catgeorge
10-01-2021, 01:14 PM
But that’s just not true? The kurgan hypothesis was admitted to be correct even by the creator of the Anatolian theory, dna evidence shows that a steppe related people brought R1b to Europe and R1a to both Europe and India and Iran, and are thus THE indo Europeans
It is true - Kura Araxes s large scale Indo European in language and customs and only oldest R1b founder effect found only in Armenia.
FinalFlash
10-01-2021, 08:35 PM
The Armenian kits I have found with the highest possible indo european admixture only are about 10-17%. most usually only have 3-5%, it gets masked as balkan or Italian results like this kit I found
Target: Armenian_Iran4
Distance: 0.7877% / 0.78765867
74.8 Armenian_EastArmenia
10.3 English_GBR
7.1 Georgian_Kakheti
2.9 Pathan
2.5 Sardinian
2.4 BedouinB
Target: Armenian_Iran4
Distance: 4.0207% / 4.02067921 | ADC: 1x RC
82.5 Armenians
17.5 Greek-Macedonia
do you have any G25 coordinates?
Mesoman
10-01-2021, 09:04 PM
The PCA isn't visible. Reposting it would be appreciated.
FinalFlash
10-01-2021, 09:37 PM
Sadly I don't have the kit number.
True, this is an outlier. Usually Armenians score way less "euro".
I assume the ancestors of this person were probably Udi who got assimilated into the Armenian population. Sort of like how the part of Udis that adopted islam assimilated into Azerbaijani.
Unless there are Udi in Iran, I find it to be very unlikely that this individual is mixed with one.
Arzanene
10-02-2021, 01:20 AM
do you have any G25 coordinates?
no, I got his results from gedmatch.
this is his mdlp k16 pca.
Armenian_iran4,0,0,14.21,7.71,0,0,49.9,0,4.07,8.24 ,15.87,0,0,0,0,0
TheOldNorth
06-12-2022, 07:44 AM
Only forum scientists say that though. There is no real eligibility to this fact. Even if there was it came from somewhere.
Literally all leading archaeological geneticist say this though?
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