Are J1 and J2 originally from CHG?

[21993]

Are J1 and J2 Y-DNAs originally from Caucasus Hunter Gatherers?

[luc2112]

Are J1 and J2 Y-DNAs originally from Caucasus Hunter Gatherers?

J1 and J2 not caucasian indo-european.

J1 = Arabic peninsula
J2 = Middle East (mix indo-european in some cases)

[Leto]

J1 is mostly Semitic as far as I know. J2 is mostly Caucasian. Its frequency peaks in Chechens and Ingush.

[Jana]

Both are CHG in origin as far as I know. J2 mixed with EHG to produce Yamnayans but it is high in non IE Kavkazians too. J1 took more southernly migration route and today peaks among Semites.

I read somewhere J1 is by early origin Kavkazian and J2 Iranian, from Zagros mountains.

[Ayetooey]

J2 probs. J1 is mainly Semetic/Arabid.

[Jana]

J2 probs. J1 is mainly Semetic/Arabid.

Arabs are part CHG (heavily). J1 came from the north, before that my guess is they were E1b Natufian like people.

[21993]

J1 and J2 not caucasian indo-european.

J1 = Arabic peninsula
J2 = Middle East (mix indo-european in some cases)


J1 is mostly Semitic as far as I know. J2 is mostly Caucasian. Its frequency peaks in Chechens and Ingush.


J2 probs. J1 is mainly Semetic/Arabid.

I think Semetic or Arabid one is mainly E1b
J1 people might have been Caucasian Hunter Gatherers who migrated to Arabian lands

[Jana]

I think Semetic or Arabid one is mainly E1b
J1 people might have been Caucasian Hunter Gatherers who migrated to Arabian lands

Yes. E1b is probable Afro-Asiatic languages main marker.

[luc2112]

I think Semetic or Arabid one is mainly E1b
J1 people might have been Caucasian Hunter Gatherers who migrated to Arabian lands

E1b is north african

J1 and J2 are semetic, j2 very mixed with indo-european (Iraqui is 50% indo-european)

Arab countries of today are from the ancient Ottoman Empire (originating in arabic peninsula)

[21993]

E1b is north african

J1 and J2 are semetic, j2 very mixed with indo-european (Iraqui is 50% indo-european)

Arab countries of today are from the ancient Ottoman Empire (originating in arabic peninsula)

Ottoman Empire originated in Northwest Anatolia, not Arabian peninsula

Caucasus Hunter Gatherer admixture is not minor among Arabians and J1 might have come there via CHG males

North Africa is predominantly Natufian (ghost population which is heavily related with Semites and Arabs) by male lineage (Y-DNA)

[luc2112]

Ottoman Empire originated in Northwest Anatolia, not Arabian peninsula

Caucasus Hunter Gatherers migrated to Arabian peninsula and carried J haplogroup there

North Africa is predominantly Natufian by male lineage

Is likely, but the Arab empire began in the Arabian peninsula

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/Muslim_Conquest.PNG

[21993]

Is likely, but the Arab empire began in the Arabian peninsula

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/Muslim_Conquest.PNG

Arab Caliphate is not Ottoman Empire

[luc2112]

Ottoman Empire originated in Northwest Anatolia, not Arabian peninsula

Caucasus Hunter Gatherer admixture is not minor among Arabians and J1 might have come there via CHG males

North Africa is predominantly Natufian (ghost population which is heavily related with Semites and Arabs) by male lineage (Y-DNA)

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/Haplogroups_europe.png

[Fiko0]

Its still not clear where J2 originated but ancient J2a samples found in Siberia and Altai region doesnt have any autosomal link with near-east. J2 is a bit complicated stuff. Many ancient samples found in Central and south-asia and also in parts of Europe that belongs to J2. Another crazy thing is the fact that many Uyghurs in Xinjiang belongs to haplogroup J2a. Around 30% of x people tested.

As far i know J1 = arab.

[21993]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/Haplogroups_europe.png

CHG is most probably responsible for J presence in the rest of Western Asia. CHG used to be very widespread in East Med area that even Egyptians have 3/10 CHG admixture

[21993]

Its still not clear where J2 originated but ancient J2a samples found in Siberia and Altai region doesnt have any autosomal link with near-east. J2 is a bit complicated stuff. Many ancient samples found in Central and south-asia and also in parts of Europe that belongs to J2. Another crazy thing is the fact that many Uyghurs in Xinjiang belongs to haplogroup J2a. Around 30% of x people tested.

As far i know J1 = arab.

J1 might not originally Arabian because admixture patterns of both J1 and J2 look so much like CHG admixture pattern. Therefore, both might be from CHG in my opinion

[luc2112]

Its still not clear where J2 originated but ancient J2a samples found in Siberia and Altai region doesnt have any autosomal link with near-east. J2 is a bit complicated stuff. Many ancient samples found in Central and south-asia and also in parts of Europe that belongs to J2. Another crazy thing is the fact that many Uyghurs in Xinjiang belongs to haplogroup J2a. Around 30% of x people tested.

As far i know J1 = arab.

yes it is correct, its origins are not known, but what is considered Indo-European are linguistic roots. Slavs are Indo-European, but not necessarily Caucasian.

[Kyp]

J1 might not originally Arabian because admixture patterns of both J1 and J2 look so much like CHG admixture pattern. Therefore, both might be from CHG in my opinion

all middle-eastern arabs are CHG admixed.. Maybe proto-afroasiatic speakers were a more northafrican or even eastafrican like population.
But yes i would consider J1 and J2 caucasian.

[Jana]

Its still not clear where J2 originated but ancient J2a samples found in Siberia and Altai region doesnt have any autosomal link with near-east. J2 is a bit complicated stuff. Many ancient samples found in Central and south-asia and also in parts of Europe that belongs to J2. Another crazy thing is the fact that many Uyghurs in Xinjiang belongs to haplogroup J2a. Around 30% of x people tested.

As far i know J1 = arab.

J is unrealated with Eurasian R and Q and close relative of haplogroup I, both originated in Iranian highlands based on clade diversity and TMRCA. But J2 presence among early Turkics is pretty much sure, they probably were assimilated during their ethnogensis hence modern and ancient presence all over Eurasia. Nevertheless, it's deepest origin is CHG.

J1 is not simply Arab, that is very superficial pow based on facts it is dominant among them today. Based on clade diversity and relatively low TMRCA of main semific clades it looks to be Caucasian lineage that spread south into Levant and Mesopotamia, later to Arabian peninsula. So yes, J1 took part in creation of early Arabs similary like J2 did in creation of early Turks, but none of these markers are their most original ones. Autosomal CHG admixture in Semites comes from these J1 men (and J2 in minor part)..

[Fiko0]

J is unrealated with Eurasian R and Q and close relative of haplogroup I, both originated in Iranian highlands based on clade diversity and TMRCA. But J2 presence among early Turkics is pretty much sure, they probably were assimilated during their ethnogensis hence modern and ancient presence all over Eurasia. Nevertheless, it's deepest origin is CHG.

J1 is not simply Arab, that is very superficial pow based on facts it is dominant among them today. Based on clade diversity and relatively low TMRCA of main semific clades it looks to be Caucasian lineage that spread south into Levant and Mesopotamia, later to Arabian peninsula. So yes, J1 took part in creation of early Arabs similary like J2 did in creation of early Turks, but none of these markers are their most original ones. Autosomal CHG admixture in Semites comes from these J1 men (and J2 in minor part)..

Yes but by who? As far as I know, there have been no groups or cultures that have influenced the Turks. Who were the carriers of J2a to the Turks? As i remember Karluks and Karakhanids were largely J2a. Perhaps thats why the present Uyghurs has such high frequencies of J2a. But the main question still remains. Who carried J2a to them.

[Jana]

Yes but by who? As far as I know, there have been no groups or cultures that have influenced the Turks. Who were the carriers of J2a to the Turks? As i remember Karluks and Karakhanids were largely J2a. Perhaps thats why the present Uyghurs has such high frequencies of J2a. But the main question still remains. Who carried J2a to them.

CHG groups.

[Kyp]

Yes but by who? As far as I know, there have been no groups or cultures that have influenced the Turks. Who were the carriers of J2a to the Turks? As i remember Karluks and Karakhanids were largely J2a. Perhaps thats why the present Uyghurs has such high frequencies of J2a. But the main question still remains. Who carried J2a to them.

Neolithic Iranians and PIE were all over Central Asia prior to Turks and Mongols

[Fiko0]

Neolithic Iranians and PIE were all over Central Asia prior to Turks and Mongols

Iranian people/tribes largely belongs to 3 main haplogroups: R1a, R1b and J2a. Could it be Scythians? Alans?

I found a research going on about Scythians/Lithuanian Tatars and the amount of J2a among them besides their main haplogroupd R1a and came across this interesting information:

The pertinence of the haplogroup J2 to the issue of Scythians rests on the tentative origin of the haplogroup from the Central Asia, and its possibility of being one of the Scythian haplogroups.

The second haplogroup in the sample is J2-M172. Its significant share (23 out of 114 haplotypes) obviously made a main contribution to the PCA calculation, bringing the Lithuanian Tatars closer to the peoples of the North Caucasus. However, such blunt approach is inadmissible, since the haplogroup J2 diverges into dozens of far-flung branches, many not related to the Caucasus at all. In the cited paper (Pankratov 2016) the issue of attribution to the haplogroup J2 branch was left out, voiding conclusions drawn by the authors. Apparently, to somehow compensate for the deficiency, examining the haplogroup J2 authors turned to a large number of haplotypes among other peoples: Nogais, Volga Tatars, Mordvins, Mari, Chuvashes and Bashkirs.
1723

A summary tree for the entire multinational sample is shown in Fig. 3.

Contrary to the population geneticists' graphs, the Lithuanian Tatars practically have no branches typical for the North Caucasus. In the left and at the bottom of the diagram are 6 disparate haplotypes attributable to the subclades J2b-L283, J2a-PF5197, J2a-M67 and J2a-L25. The type of four 12-marker haplotypes from the Lithuanian Tatar Nobility project not included in the tree is unclear, except for one identified as J2a-L192. The remaining 13 haplotypes form a compact branch with an ancestor from the era of Kipchak hegemony in the Eurasian steppes. This genealogical line stands apart from other cases of haplogroup J2 in the Eastern Europe, since it does not belong to any featured subclades of the L283, M67 and L25. The SNP Pack in analysis of the J-M172 (J2-M172) finds this snip sequence:

L26> PF5087> Z2221> PF5197> PF5172> PF5191> FGC16096> S15439.

The high proportion of J2 haplogroup may lead to its source in the Caucasus, giving indication of where the R1a came from. For example, the Nakhs, bordering on Savirs, have J2 proportion reaching 60%, and the Savir/Nakh sample would return R1a/J2 predominance. Same would be with the Bulgar/Nakh sample. Savirs are known for their traditional annual military campaigns, and for their mercenary service in numerous foreign armies, including Persian, Byzantine, and Khazar. It is unlikely that such uniformity of the genetic material can be formed elsewhere except for the congestion of the Caucasus valleys.

The horse nomads of the Karluk branch, Uigurs and Uzbeks, have significant proportion of J2 haplogroup, 34% and 30% respectively. Uigurs were a maternal dynastic tribe of the Huns, they supplanted the old maternal dynastic tribe Qian (Kian, Huyan, Kayi), and later became the paternal dynastic tribe of the Southern Huns in China (coup by Huhanie, 56 BC, Huhanie-Shanuy). After that turmoil, at the turn of the eras, Uigurs had a heavy presence in the Aral basin, from which they were displaced westward, along with Avars/Wars/Uars and Kangars, first by Türkic Kaganate, and then by the Oguz migration. They are good candidates for the compact fraction of the J2 of the Lithuanian Tatars.

More information: http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/27_Scythians/RojanskyI2017Scythians-LithuanianTatarsEn.htm

[Pater Patota]

Who could carry?

Ofcourse, 100% Iranics, Karluks, Uygurs, Uzbeks, they're all half Iranic, those J2 have found in Altai, Siberia, they're all Iranic tribes.Becouse, Iranics were the only rulers of the Central Asia before Uygur/Gokturks came to nowaday's Sincan/Turkistan area.

J2 is definitely Iranian Neolithic.

[Fiko0]

Who could carry?

Ofcourse, 100% Iranics, Karluks, Uygurs, Uzbeks, they're all half Iranic, those J2 have found in Altai, Siberia, they're all Iranic tribes.Becouse, Iranics were the only rulers of the Central Asia before Uygur/Gokturks came to nowaday's Sincan/Turkistan area.

J2 is definitely Iranian Neolithic.

It seems like everybody has his own theory.

[Arhat]

Its still not clear where J2 originated but ancient J2a samples found in Siberia and Altai region doesnt have any autosomal link with near-east. J2 is a bit complicated stuff. Many ancient samples found in Central and south-asia and also in parts of Europe that belongs to J2. Another crazy thing is the fact that many Uyghurs in Xinjiang belongs to haplogroup J2a. Around 30% of x people tested.

As far i know J1 = arab.

well J* was found in Mesolithic Karelia and Kvalynsk and in both cases this J men had no recent genetic link to the near east. It looks like Y-DNA J orginates from somewhere around the Caucasus/Caspian and had genetic links with HGs of Europe and North Eurasia but most Y-DNA J became mixed with more southern populations.

[Sacrificed Ram]

IJ* was found in Iran. Levantine neolithics lacked totally of J yDNA, but J1 and J2 appears in bronze age canaanites.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?216494-Cana-anite-DNA

Possible J yDNA was spread by iranian chalcolithic herder peoples

[Black Wolf]

well J* was found in Mesolithic Karelia and Kvalynsk and in both cases this J men had no recent genetic link to the near east. It looks like Y-DNA J orginates from somewhere around the Caucasus/Caspian and had genetic links with HGs of Europe and North Eurasia but most Y-DNA J became mixed with more southern populations.

The J from Mesolithic Karelia is a type of J1. Not sure if the Khvalynsk culture J is J1 or J2 though since those samples have not been released yet.

[WhatsGoingOnBigGuy]

While we're on the topic of J1, does anyone have information about J1 mtdna, specifically J1c3? 23andme says it's pretty much only found in Europe today, but I'm not sure if their info is correct. I know it's paternal counterpart is jewish/arabic though.

[Balthier]

I have a theory that most J2a, R1a,b and Q1b was brought to the m.east(excluding Turkey) by Iranian Speaking peoples such as the Scythians or the Persians. However, the phillistines might also have been a Luwian Speaking group, settled there after the bronze age invasions and might have brang J2 and R. Some J2 in Turkey ofc were always there, and some J2 in all of the middle east was brought by the Romans.

J1 on the other hand, seems to be an earlier migration, i'll take a wild guess; Sumerians?