New model for Iberians using new Gothic samples

[Token]

Models for Iberians using the new Gothic samples and previously published Celtiberian samples. The Goths were quite 'exotic' for a Germanic people, with quite a bit of Central Asian admixture too, so it should not be difficult to isolate their ancestry among modern people.

That's how the Gothic samples used here looks like:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-L81MWn6wyMQ/XSfqGIil-xI/AAAAAAAAH_A/y_CsTp8wm9w7y3yoQdJWJ3g32L7OFjiWwCLcBGAs/s1600/G25_North_Euro_scaled_Chernyakhiv.png

[1] "distance%=1.414"
Portuguese
Celtiberian,63.4
Roman_Collegno,18.4
Guanche,10.2
Gothic_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky,8

[1] "distance%=1.3796"
Spanish_Barcelones
Celtiberian,73
Roman_Collegno,17
Gothic_Chernyakhiv,4.8
Gothic2_Chernyakhiv,4.4
Guanche,0.8

[1] "distance%=1.0626"
Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
Celtiberian,67.6
Roman_Collegno,19.4
Gothic2_Chernyakhiv,6.8
Gothic_Chernyakhiv,4
Guanche,2.2

[1] "distance%=1.681"
Spanish_Castello
Celtiberian,72
Roman_Collegno,17
Gothic2_Chernyakhiv,9
Guanche,2

[1] "distance%=1.2751"
Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
Celtiberian,73.8
Roman_Collegno,22.4
Guanche,3.8

[1] "distance%=1.239"
Spanish_Cataluna
Celtiberian,71.2
Roman_Collegno,12.6
Gothic2_Chernyakhiv,11.2
Guanche,5

[1] "distance%=1.604"
Spanish_Extremadura
Celtiberian,59.2
Roman_Collegno,18.4
Gothic2_Chernyakhiv,12
Guanche,10.4

[Token]

Galicians score very high 'Gothic', but i suppose this has to do with the denser Germanic input from Suebi there.

[1] "distance%=1.7785"
Spanish_Galicia
Celtiberian,54.4
Gothic_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky,22.6
Guanche,12.4
Roman_Collegno,10.6

[Adamastor]

It seems Galicians have at the same time the most Northern European and North African genetic profile in the peninsula.

[Token]

It seems Galicians have at the same time the most Northern European and North African genetic profile in the peninsula.

Also apparently less Celtic, which is kinda ironic. The elevated North African is truly a mystery.

[Peterski]

Also apparently less Celtic, which is kinda ironic.

Nope.

They just have extra Insular Celtic input, in addition to Celtiberian. Hence the elevated level of R1b-L21 in Galicia. You should add some Irish, British or French Breton samples to that model:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britonia

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f9/Britonia6hcentury.png/438px-Britonia6hcentury.png

[Joso]

It seems Galicians have at the same time the most Northern European and North African genetic profile in the peninsula.

How do they look like?

[Token]

Nope.

They just have extra Insular Celtic input, in addition to Celtiberian. Hence the elevated level of R1b-L21 in Galicia. You should add some Irish, British or French Breton samples to that model.

Lets test your hypothesis,

[1] "distance%=1.717"
Spanish_Galicia
Celtiberian,48.8
Roman_Collegno,13.2
England_IA,12.8
Guanche,12.8
Gothic_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky,12.4

The Germanic goes back to normal Iberian levels. Briton admixture seems feasible to me.

[Dick]

Goths had a talent for acculturation it seems;


1 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky:Average Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL I12163 Ancient; CE:550 2.716
2 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky:Average HUN_MA_Szolad SZ5 Ancient; CE:505 3.257
3 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky:Average Hungarian NA15207 Modern; 3.299
4 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky:Average Montenegrin Montenegro7 Modern; 3.437
5 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky:Average Serbian Serbian_Serbia5 Modern; 3.465
6 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky:Average Custom AGUser_Dorkymon 3.61
7 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky:Average German German28 Modern; 3.715
8 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky:Average Austrian Austria7 Modern; 3.731
9 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky:Average Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA_Averaged Averaged 3.783



1 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:Average Polish Polish39 Modern; 3.153
2 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:Average Bell_Beaker_Bavaria I5531 Ancient; BCE:2250 3.491
3 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:Average Slovakian_Averaged Averaged 3.566
4 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:Average Ukrainian Ukrainian10 Modern; 3.567
5 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:Average Slovakian Slovakia85 Modern; 3.571
6 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:Average Ukrainian UKR-2021 3.626
7 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:Average SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna vik_urm160 3.644
8 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:Average SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna vik_grt036 3.655
9 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:Average Slovakian Slovakia94 Modern; 3.669


http://185.144.156.77:3000/checkfit.html

[Token]

Goths had a talent for acculturation it seems;


1 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky:Average Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL I12163 Ancient; CE:550 2.716
2 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky:Average HUN_MA_Szolad SZ5 Ancient; CE:505 3.257
3 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky:Average Hungarian NA15207 Modern; 3.299
4 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky:Average Montenegrin Montenegro7 Modern; 3.437
5 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky:Average Serbian Serbian_Serbia5 Modern; 3.465
6 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky:Average Custom AGUser_Dorkymon 3.61
7 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky:Average German German28 Modern; 3.715
8 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky:Average Austrian Austria7 Modern; 3.731
9 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky:Average Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA_Averaged Averaged 3.783



1 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:Average Polish Polish39 Modern; 3.153
2 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:Average Bell_Beaker_Bavaria I5531 Ancient; BCE:2250 3.491
3 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:Average Slovakian_Averaged Averaged 3.566
4 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:Average Ukrainian Ukrainian10 Modern; 3.567
5 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:Average Slovakian Slovakia85 Modern; 3.571
6 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:Average Ukrainian UKR-2021 3.626
7 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:Average SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna vik_urm160 3.644
8 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:Average SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna vik_grt036 3.655
9 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:Average Slovakian Slovakia94 Modern; 3.669


http://185.144.156.77:3000/checkfit.html

The fact that the first one is closest to a Iberian Goth is certainly not a coincidence.

[Peterski]

The fact that the first one is closest to a Iberian Goth is certainly not a coincidence.

Some Goths went to Iberia and some stayed back at the Vistula (Polish39).

[Dick]

The fact that the first one is closest to a Iberian Goth is certainly not a coincidence.

Indeed. The two samples from UKR were females afaik.

[Token]

It seems Goths were a messy mixture of Germanic, Balkan and Slavic elements, with even some Scythian thrown in.

[Not a Cop]

It seems Goths were a messy mixture of Germanic, Balkan and Slavic elements, with even some Scythian thrown in.

Does algorithm preffer Goths to other medieval germanics?

[Token]

Does algorithm preffer Goths to other medieval germanics?

Here i tested it with Extremadura using medieval Bajuvarians. The fit is marginally worse.

[1] "distance%=1.683"
Spanish_Extremadura
Celtiberian,57.8
Roman_Collegno,22.2
Guanche,10.2
DEU_MA,9.8

[Tietar]

How do they look like?

This "high" North African mix is nothing other than in 20% of Galicians there is in their DNA some characteristic of that population. Scientists do not agree when it comes. This may come from a remote ancestor so it will not even be reflected in the physical aspect.

The funny thing is that this percentage drops to 2% in some provinces of Andalusia as in Granada (last Muslim bastion)

The myth of the Arab/African mixture in the peninsula is just that, a myth, 90% on average is free of this almost residual mixture

[SharpFork]

10% seems actually a lot, I wonder what the % would end up being when looking into Northern France.


This "high" North African mix is nothing other than in 20% of Galicians there is in their DNA some characteristic of that population. Scientists do not agree when it comes. This may come from a remote ancestor so it will not even be reflected in the physical aspect.

The funny thing is that this percentage drops to 2% in some provinces of Andalusia as in Granada (last Muslim bastion)

The myth of the Arab/African mixture in the peninsula is just that, a myth, 90% on average is free of this almost residual mixture
Where are you finding those figures? Andalusians have about 2% Subsaharan heritage(Eurogenes k13), let alone North African.

[Adamastor]

10% seems actually a lot, I wonder what the % would end up being when looking into Northern France.


Where are you finding those figures? Andalusians have about 2% Subsaharan heritage(Eurogenes k13), let alone North African.

Of course the usual uninformed butthurt retards would appear to derail the thread, I don't know where this guy took his numbers from and 12% isn't ''residual''. By the way I don't saw anyone saying Galicians look North African... They just score a lot of it, that's the unavoidable truth.

Don't mind him, some users here are so butthurt that they interpret as ''trolling'' the mere discussion of genetic facts.

[Tietar]

10% seems actually a lot, I wonder what the % would end up being when looking into Northern France.


Where are you finding those figures? Andalusians have about 2% Subsaharan heritage(Eurogenes k13), let alone North African.

I speak about the Andalusians where the old kingdom of Granada was (GMA), the last Muslim stronghold from 1238 to 1492, where all the Muslims in the peninsula had to take refuge

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d2/Reino_de_Granada.svg/250px-Reino_de_Granada.svg.png


The genetic data of 17 Y chromosome short tandem repeats in 146 unrelated donor residents in the provinces of Granada, Málaga, and Almería (GMA) were analyzed to determine the genetic legacy of the male inhabitants of the former Kingdom of Granada. A total of 139 unique haplotypes were identified. Observed allele frequencies and haplogroup frequencies were also analyzed. By AMOVA and STRUCTURE analysis, the populations of the 3 provinces could be treated genetically as a single population. The most frequent haplogroup was R1b1b2 (58.22%). By network analysis of all individuals, we observed a distribution according to haplogroup assignment. To improve the characterization of GMA population, it was compared with those of North Africa, the Iberian Peninsula, and southern Europe. In our analysis of allele frequencies and genetic distances, the GMA population lay within the Spanish population group. Further, in the STRUCTURE analysis, there was no African component in the GMA population, confirming that, based on our genetic markers, the GMA population does not reflect any male genetic influence of the North African people. The presence of African haplogroups in the GMA population is irrelevant when their frequency is compared with those in other European populations.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-41580-9

[SharpFork]

What is the Celtiberian sample?

[Nurzat]

are these two kits on Gedmatch to see where they plot on the K15 map?

[loschbour_man]

are these two kits on Gedmatch to see where they plot on the K15 map?

MJ19 Chernyakhov 262-530 AD XJ2742214
MJ36 Chernyakhov Low Quality XA3802705
MJ37 Chernyakhov 243-386 AD RN2067517

[Javiberius]

Models for Iberians using the new Gothic samples and previously published Celtiberian samples. The Goths were quite 'exotic' for a Germanic people, with quite a bit of Central Asian admixture too, so it should not be difficult to isolate their ancestry among modern people.

That's how the Gothic samples used here looks like:

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-L81MWn6wyMQ/XSfqGIil-xI/AAAAAAAAH_A/y_CsTp8wm9w7y3yoQdJWJ3g32L7OFjiWwCLcBGAs/s1600/G25_North_Euro_scaled_Chernyakhiv.png

[1] "distance%=1.414"
Portuguese
Celtiberian,63.4
Roman_Collegno,18.4
Guanche,10.2
Gothic_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky,8

[1] "distance%=1.3796"
Spanish_Barcelones
Celtiberian,73
Roman_Collegno,17
Gothic_Chernyakhiv,4.8
Gothic2_Chernyakhiv,4.4
Guanche,0.8

[1] "distance%=1.0626"
Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
Celtiberian,67.6
Roman_Collegno,19.4
Gothic2_Chernyakhiv,6.8
Gothic_Chernyakhiv,4
Guanche,2.2

[1] "distance%=1.681"
Spanish_Castello
Celtiberian,72
Roman_Collegno,17
Gothic2_Chernyakhiv,9
Guanche,2

[1] "distance%=1.2751"
Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha
Celtiberian,73.8
Roman_Collegno,22.4
Guanche,3.8

[1] "distance%=1.239"
Spanish_Cataluna
Celtiberian,71.2
Roman_Collegno,12.6
Gothic2_Chernyakhiv,11.2
Guanche,5

[1] "distance%=1.604"
Spanish_Extremadura
Celtiberian,59.2
Roman_Collegno,18.4
Gothic2_Chernyakhiv,12
Guanche,10.4

Where do I find this? On gedmatch?

[Nurzat]

MJ19 Chernyakhov 262-530 AD XJ2742214
MJ36 Chernyakhov Low Quality XA3802705
MJ37 Chernyakhov 243-386 AD RN2067517

Goth #1 = XJ2742214
Goth #2 = RN2067517

https://scontent.ftce2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/68895433_1856087184537649_2947128506074529792_n.jp g?_nc_cat=111&_nc_oc=AQlJgTrNDjhgG3atXzG0qbE3ms4s7qdjoHgNQ4Cr5zs MLsuDsY31XmjtCQhcqfKE1SU&_nc_ht=scontent.ftce2-1.fna&oh=5641e6ec85994f8e20e2c22277719337&oe=5DCCE1AD

[Gaditanian]

Also apparently less Celtic, which is kinda ironic. The elevated North African is truly a mystery.

As I understand for what I studied at the high school, at the time of the Reconquest, the Moors were expelled from the areas of greatest value for Christians of the north. The Spanish Kings were always "Benevolent" and did not exterminate, but they forced them to relocate in the north, to move them away from the areas still pending conquest, and thus avoid pacts that could cause them to lose the land gained.

[Javiberius]

Okay my question is where do I find this new model admixtures for people of Iberian descent that’s being talked about in this thread???Gedmatch?

[Dick]

Goth #1 = XJ2742214
Goth #2 = RN2067517

https://scontent.ftce2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/68895433_1856087184537649_2947128506074529792_n.jp g?_nc_cat=111&_nc_oc=AQlJgTrNDjhgG3atXzG0qbE3ms4s7qdjoHgNQ4Cr5zs MLsuDsY31XmjtCQhcqfKE1SU&_nc_ht=scontent.ftce2-1.fna&oh=5641e6ec85994f8e20e2c22277719337&oe=5DCCE1AD

Goth #2 plots a bit northwest of the Visigoth found in Spain. The eurogenes results are odd, how can she be "Balkan" admixed(basically West German+ Greek Thessaly) when she was found in the Ukraine.

[Adamastor]

As I understand for what I studied at the high school, at the time of the Reconquest, the Moors were expelled from the areas of greatest value for Christians of the north. The Spanish Kings were always "Benevolent" and did not exterminate, but they forced them to relocate in the north, to move them away from the areas still pending conquest, and thus avoid pacts that could cause them to lose the land gained.

That might be an alternative explanation, but I think most of the North African admixture in Galicians, Extremadurans and Portuguese arrived there with the Romans.

[Beowulf]

I tried to use similar sample as the OP's ones


Target: Beowulf_Merged_Scaled
Distance: 0.0174% / 0.01741960
46.3 Gothic
27.2 Roman_and_East_Med
23.2 Celtiberian
3.3 AncientNorthAfrican



Celtiberian,0.126913,0.155376,0.058831,0.0011305,0 .0704745,-0.0013945,-0.002585,0.0080765,0.030065,0.0506615,-0.003004,0.012439,-0.0196235,-0.0119045,0.0039355,0.008685,0.00854,0.0044975,-0.0018855,0.0018135,0.0084225,0.0076665,-0.007025,-0.0192195,0.0073045


Gothic,0.1235,0.13811,0.07071,0.06315,0.04201,0.01 827,0.00799,0.00658,0.00941,-0.00756,-0.00414,0.00277,-0.01278,-0.0108,0.01927,0.01604,-0.00685,-0.0007,0.00119,0.00488,0.01073,0.00087,-0.00092,0.01723,0.003712


Roman_and_East_Med,0.110408,0.15436,-0.006034,-0.068476,0.020004,-0.021475,-0.00282,0.000923,0.007976,0.042097,0.003248,0.0160 36,-0.019326,-0.008533,-0.016015,-0.002387,0.021122,0.006588,0.010182,-0.002876,-0.006364,0.016199,0.001356,0.006386,-0.00491


AncientNorthAfrican,-0.1146199,0.1064274,-0.0133125,-0.0771647,0.0306826,-0.0457937,-0.0502921,0.0133378,0.1131424,0.0170209,0.0142415,-0.0189132,0.0464861,-0.0345158,0.0472035,-0.0246750,0.0042245,-0.0426560,-0.0933686,0.0246994,-0.0255799,-0.0816232,0.0481405,-0.0074706,0.0105379

[vader]

Using Beowulf’s samples:

Target: Algarvio_scaled
Distance: 1.5817% / 0.01581726
32.8 Celtiberian
31.6 Gothic
27.0 Roman_and_East_Med
8.6 AncientNorthAfrican

Target: dad_scaled
Distance: 2.2235% / 0.02223531
33.8 Celtiberian
33.0 Gothic
23.8 Roman_and_East_Med
9.4 AncientNorthAfrican

Target: mom_scaled
Distance: 3.5820% / 0.03582039
36.8 Gothic
28.0 Roman_and_East_Med
25.2 Celtiberian
10.0 AncientNorthAfrican

[Gallop]

#28

Target: Gallop_scaled
Distance: 2.7744% / 0.02774360
40.0 Celtiberian
30.6 Gothic
26.8 Roman_and_East_Med
2.6 AncientNorthAfrican

Target: Father_scaled
Distance: 2.5784% / 0.02578371
40.2 Celtiberian
30.2 Gothic
26.6 Roman_and_East_Med
3.0 AncientNorthAfrican

Target: brother_scaled
Distance: 2.7989% / 0.02798933
44.8 Celtiberian
27.4 Roman_and_East_Med
24.6 Gothic
3.2 AncientNorthAfrican



2% NA what I get in Ancestry, in FTDNA nothing as in livingdna and many others, conclusion: it must be some ancestral correspondence that is not even specifically NA. :cool:

[Jingle Bell]

Target: JingleBell_scaled
Distance: 2.2752% / 0.02275156
44.8 Sub-Saharan_African
18.4 Roman_and_East_Med
15.8 Celtiberian
12.6 Gothic
5.4 AncientNorthAfrican
3.0 Amerindian

Target: Dad_Simulated
Distance: 1.2527% / 0.01252677
35.4 Sub-Saharan_African
22.2 Roman_and_East_Med
18.8 Gothic
10.6 Celtiberian
7.6 AncientNorthAfrican
5.4 Amerindian

[Damião de Góis]

I believe this model was attempted with the samples from the Olalde study, in which the samples were from northeast iberia. Here "Celtiberian" is basically a basque, so those iberians that aren't particularly close to basques will prefer the gothic and roman samples that are present in this model. To solve this we would need Iron Age samples from western Iberia, which we haven't got so far.

Target: Gil_Vicente
Distance: 3.1100% / 0.03110047
40.0 Gothic
27.6 Roman_and_East_Med
24.6 Celtiberian
7.8 AncientNorthAfrican