Migration era (Hun and Germanic-Roman mixed ?) samples from east Croatia, cranially deformed

[Jana]

3 Samples of adolescent males with severe malnutrition, similar diet and very different genetic ancestry from Osijek, eastern Croatia (dated to 5th century)

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0216366

PCA:
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0216366.g003

Raw Data Download : European Nucleotide Database, ID: PRJEB33257

[Jana]

If somebody can analyse their genomes, upload to gedmatch/G25 and make good summary out of this important discovery, I would be grateful.

I am confimed to mobile phone so I am limited in ability to study this paper in detail.

[Jana]

Some quotes:


Based on the archeological context and a direct radiocarbon date, the feature was dated to the 5th/6th century CE, and it is likely associated with the Huns or Germanic tribes.

During the 5th and 6th century CE, the region around modern day city of Osijek (the Roman Province Panonnia Secunda) was under the Hunnish rule, than under the Ostrogothic rule, and finally under the Gepid rule, with some shorter interruptions when they were finally replaced by Avars

[Jana]

Individual without artificial cranial deformation shows broadly West Eurasian associated ancestry, individual with tabular oblique type has East Eurasian ancestry, and the 3rd individual with circular-erect type has Near Eastern associated ancestry

Based on this results we speculate that artificial cranial deformation type may have been visual indicator of membership in a specific cultural group

[Ayetooey]

Y dnas?

[Jana]

Y dnas?

Idk, I am on mobile until September. Their raw data is publically available for download, so hopefully somebody do it.

One looks completely NE Asian, one east med/levantine other mixed Germanic but I am not sure, still processing the text.

[WeirdLookingFellow]

Interesting as there are also the individuals found in Bavaria with ACD, they will probably find that they're related.

[Jana]

Interesting as there are also the individuals found in Bavaria with ACD, they will probably find that they're related.

Yes, they mention that. Mongoloid and MENA like sample have deformed skulls, most European one does not.


The latter two individuals show ancestries similar to the ones seen in the Early Medieval Bavarians, which also included the presence of individuals of Southern European/Near Eastern ancestries

[Pater Patota]

Y dnas?

Let's guess, i say R1a.

[Jana]

Let's guess, i say R1a.

Most likely they have different ydna because they are genetically unrelated, all 3 are males so perhaps we can find out.

[Ayetooey]

Let's guess, i say R1a.

The NE asian probably R1a, east med probably J2a, mixed Germanic either r1b or r1a. That's my guesses :p. If the data can be downloaded someone should be able to upload to Morley hopefully.

[PAGANE]

Y dnas?

I guess J or Q

[Jana]

It is really strange how they say Asian sample is closest to Cambodians and Tu. On PCA he is very northern, west from east Asians and north of Central Asians (east Siberian I would gusss)

So weird they concluded he is closest to SE Asians ?!

One with non deformed skull cluster betweeen North Europe and Caucasus (?), this one is probably very steppe/Indo-European.

Third with ACD is firmly in mena cluster.

Looking at the dating one of this samples is Hunnic for sure. It is too early for Avars. What are other two is harder to interpret.

[Jana]

SU 259 = ancestry related with modern populations from East and Northeast Asia (Ami, Mongola, Ngansan), the closest being Cambodian and Tu

SU 261= overlaps with Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese

SU 750 = between populations from Caucasus, Europe and the Near East

They say number of SNP is pretty low :/

[ph2ter]

Unfortunately, no Y-DNA nor mtDNA.

[Blondie]

Looking at the dating one of this samples is Hunnic for sure. It is too early for Avars. What are other two is harder to interpret.

Very possible that huns and avars were same peoples.

[Jana]

Very possible that huns and avars were same peoples.

Maybe they had same origins, but Avars appeared quite later.

[Blondie]

Maybe they had same origins, but Avars appeared quite later.

Avars had uralic paternal origin, they are similar to old magyars and both ethnic group used turkic given and tribal names:

https://i.imgur.com/7ekYhRm.png

https://i.imgur.com/5GxPXJA.png

"The subclade N-M178[Phylogenetics 3] is defined by the presence of markers M178 and P298. N-M178* has higher average frequency in Northern Europe than in Siberia, reaching frequencies of approximately 60% among Finns and approximately 40% among Latvians, Lithuanians & 35% among Estonians (Derenko 2007 and Lappalainen 2008).

Miroslava Derenko and her colleagues noted that there are two subclusters within this haplogroup, both present in Siberia and Northern Europe, with different histories. The one that they labelled N3a1 first expanded in south Siberia and spread into Northern Europe. Meanwhile, the younger subcluster, which they labelled N3a2, originated in south Siberia (probably in the Baikal region)(Derenko 2007)."



Many hungarian historian accept that avars were hungarian speakers and the complete conquest of the Carpathian Basin happened between 6-9. century.

[Jana]

^^^ It is possible. Old sources mention Magyars had Hun ancestry. So this contiunity Huns-Avars-Magyars is possible, just not proved yet.

Only thing that is quite strange is contradictory conclusion of this sample being very NE Asian like and at same time closest to Cambodians, who are SE Asians. It doesn't make any sense. NE and SE Asians are very different genetically, he plots like East Siberian which makes sense for Hun origin. I don't think Huns or Avars had anything to do with Indo-China, too exotic.

[Ljubic]

I cant find it on the Database.

[Jana]

I cant find it on the Database.

You tried accesion number ? That's strange.

[Ljubic]

You tried accesion number ? That's strange.

Yeah. I even searched the region but there are only two other Croatian samples.

[Blondie]

^^^ It is possible. Old sources mention Magyars had Hun ancestry. So this contiunity Huns-Avars-Magyars is possible, just not proved yet.


This new genetic source is interesting, they tested the conqueror ruler elite:

"According to our data half of the conqueror population had Xiongnu origin, corroborating the statement of medieval Hungarian chronicles, which all declare Hunnic origin of the Hungarians. The conquerors with Scandinavian-German genetic affinity had most probably Ostrogothic origin, as this group was reported to have been integrated into the European Hun Empire hundreds of years before the conquest. "
http://doktori.bibl.u-szeged.hu/3794/2/Neparaczki_Thesis_english.pdf

By the was we learn the complete avar history in the school, they mentioned the continuity too.

[Voskos]

Lol.

[War Chef]

SU 261 is a Roman. Lots of Romans came from the Levant and north-Africa as Roman Empire was very cosmopolitan.

SU 750 looks north-Caucasian (kavkaz), but a bit more Euro influenced than modern ones.

SU 259 looks full blown Hunnic elite. Very surprising. They must've came from far deep within Asia and not Mari/Chuvash area as I suspected.

Incredible;e results. Can't wait for someone to run them through GEDmatch.

[Pater Patota]

Yeah. I even searched the region but there are only two other Croatian samples.

I knew some N, Q and J2b are in Croatia, they're rare.

[Ljubic]

The Huns also performed artificial cranial deformation which fits the description of .SU 259

[Leto]

^^^ It is possible. Old sources mention Magyars had Hun ancestry. So this contiunity Huns-Avars-Magyars is possible, just not proved yet.
Yes, and Adam is a Mongoloid Hun descendant.

[Jana]

SU 261 is a Roman. Lots of Romans came from the Levant and north-Africa as Roman Empire was very cosmopolitan.

SU 750 looks north-Caucasian (kavkaz), but a bit more Euro influenced than modern ones.

SU 259 looks full blown Hunnic elite. Very surprising. They must've came from far deep within Asia and not Mari/Chuvash area as I suspected.

Incredible;e results. Can't wait for someone to run them through GEDmatch.

It is incredible they were buried togheder and were in similar physical state which implies they interacted and lived togheder, with such hugely diverse ancestry.

[War Chef]

Bump for litvinski to do his magic

[Crimson Winds]

Very possible that huns and avars were same peoples.

I don't think so. They passed the same route and had similar warrior culture but Avars migrated far after the Huns via Central Asia. There was a huge animosity between them and Göktürks stated in Byzantine records as Göktürk prince claims they were their escaped slaves which makes stating a correlation between them and Huns impossible since Göktürks were active in 6-8th centuries.

[Blondie]

I don't think so. They passed the same route and had similar warrior culture but Avars migrated far after the Huns via Central Asia.

Okay by your logic vikings cannot be germanic because they migrated after the germanic goths and vandals.

[Dick]

Looks like they had a hard life and it wasn't that long ago.

[Crimson Winds]

Okay by your logic vikings cannot be germanic because they migrated after the germanic goths and vandals.

No, my logic says Saxons cannot be Swedes.

[Blondie]

No, my logic says Saxons cannot be Swedes.

You said avars cannot be huns because they migrated after them, which is bullshit, just like vikings can be germanic just because they migrated after germanic goths and vandals. Your logic makes no sense and avars had clearly uralic paternal origin, they have nothing to do with turks.

[Crimson Winds]

You said avars cannot be huns because they migrated after them, which is bullshit, just like vikings can be germanic just because they migrated after germanic goths and vandals. Your logic makes no sense and avars had clearly uralic paternal origin, they have nothing to do with turks.

I just mentioned they were the arch enemies of Göktürks whom emerged from the Altai Mountains far east for proposing they have just migrated the same region with Huns a few centuries later and no, we do not have enough information about Avars to detect their ethnic origin, they could be even related to Rouran Khaganate. When you'll learn to read others comments and answer according to it?

[Blondie]

When you'll learn to read others comments and answer according to it?

This is true for you, I said:


Very possible that huns and avars were same peoples.

Your answer:


I don't think so.

So you denied it with your useless logic after that i answered for that. So when you'll learn to read others comments?

[Crimson Winds]

This is true for you, I said:



Your answer:



So you denied it with your useless logic after that i answered for that. So when you'll learn to read others comments?

LOGIC LOGIC LOGIC LOGIC LOGIC LOGIC LOGIC LOGIC LOGIC LOGIC LOGIC LOGIC

entring a conversation with you is like playing chess with a goat.

LOGIC LOGIC LOGIC LOGIC LOGIC LOGIC LOGIC LOGIC LOGIC LOGIC LOGIC LOGIC

[oszkar07]

Avars had uralic paternal origin, they are similar to old magyars and both ethnic group used turkic given and tribal names:

https://i.imgur.com/7ekYhRm.png

https://i.imgur.com/5GxPXJA.png

"The subclade N-M178[Phylogenetics 3] is defined by the presence of markers M178 and P298. N-M178* has higher average frequency in Northern Europe than in Siberia, reaching frequencies of approximately 60% among Finns and approximately 40% among Latvians, Lithuanians & 35% among Estonians (Derenko 2007 and Lappalainen 2008).

Miroslava Derenko and her colleagues noted that there are two subclusters within this haplogroup, both present in Siberia and Northern Europe, with different histories. The one that they labelled N3a1 first expanded in south Siberia and spread into Northern Europe. Meanwhile, the younger subcluster, which they labelled N3a2, originated in south Siberia (probably in the Baikal region)(Derenko 2007)."



Many hungarian historian accept that avars were hungarian speakers and the complete conquest of the Carpathian Basin happened between 6-9. century.

If not all the Avar then some % of the Avar were already Magyar speakers.
I cant see how the smaller group of Arpad's conquerors could linguistically convert the estimated 200 k inhabitatnts of the Carpathian basin , also rememeber children usually learn language from their mothers.
I think for sure % of Avars were Magyar speakers , perhaps the other inhabitants in Carpathian Basin were Slavs that evntually assimilated eventually into Hungarians.

[Blondie]

[/B]

If not all the Avar then some % of the Avar were already Magyar speakers.
I cant see how the smaller group of Arpad's conquerors could linguistically convert the estimated 200 k inhabitatnts of the Carpathian basin , also rememeber children usually learn language from their mothers.
I think for sure % of Avars were Magyar speakers , perhaps the other inhabitants in Carpathian Basin were Slavs that evntually assimilated eventually into Hungarians.

This 200k is 0,5-1 million, and Árpád's conquerors were only 30000-60000, that's why hungarians have no any asian genetic today because they were only a small elite.

[War Chef]

Looks like they had a hard life and it wasn't that long ago.

Not really anyones fault but their own. The Huns spent most of their time rampaging in the Balkans and leaving good farmland depopulated.

[oszkar07]

This 200k is 0,5-1 million, and Árpád's conquerors were only 30000-60000, that's why hungarians have no any asian genetic today because they were only a small elite.

Thats also why imo its impossible that Arpads conquerors by themselves linguistically assimilated the inhabitants .
I think its quite possible at least up to 100 to 200 k of the population of karpat medence was already speaking Hungarian when Arpad arrived.

[Blondie]

Thats also why imo its impossible that Arpads conquerors by themselves linguistically assimilated the inhabitants .
I think its quite possible at least up to 100 to 200 k of the population of karpat medence was already speaking Hungarian when Arpad arrived.

It's not impossible, look at latin america, 100 million american indian adopted the latin language from rougly few thousand spanish people. But i belive in your version :)

[Turul Karom]

It is incredible they were buried togheder and were in similar physical state which implies they interacted and lived togheder, with such hugely diverse ancestry.

They may have had very different Y-haplogroups, but they were indeed not that different from one another when it came to culture, religion, and frequently, appearances. Even then, these were a moot point as the Hungarians and proto-Hungarians of old were fromed from steppe tribes that came together as one.


I don't think so. They passed the same route and had similar warrior culture but Avars migrated far after the Huns via Central Asia. There was a huge animosity between them and Göktürks stated in Byzantine records as Göktürk prince claims they were their escaped slaves which makes stating a correlation between them and Huns impossible since Göktürks were active in 6-8th centuries.

Read this article, which explains the Avar question:

http://www.transoxiana.org/Eran/Articles/dobrovits.html


This 200k is 0,5-1 million, and Árpád's conquerors were only 30000-60000, that's why hungarians have no any asian genetic today because they were only a small elite.

Every ethnic Hungarian on TA scores higher on Turkic K11 compared to ethnics from surrounding nations, including even self-noted half Hungarians like oszkar. Mr. G's father's phenotype and chromosome show old Hungarian ancestry. Stears scores the highest Turkic I have ever seen among Hungarian posters, and higher than some Anatolian Turks. Unless you are talking about East Asian genetic input, of which I and others only have a very mild % of, then this "Asian" connection you are so positive we don't posses is disingenuous and represents an untruth about continuity. Germanic and Slavic input has not eliminated old Hungarian origins; nobody debates that 1000 years of being in central Europe has not resulted in us clustering closer to neighboring states genetically, but we also the shortest distance genetically from the conquerors and also Bashkirs.

Thus, we have a clear route of our origins as well as well as explanations for our genetics today as well.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/04/03/597997.full.pdf

https://i.imgur.com/rah5RJA.jpg

[Peterski]

Bump for litvinski to do his magic

I can but these samples are very low quality.

[Token]

These samples are basically useless.

[War Chef]

I can but these samples are very low quality.

:cry2

[Peterski]

look at latin america, 100 million american indian adopted the latin language from rougly few thousand spanish people.

Are you crazy or joking?

[Tong]

Does this mean germanics have hunnic dna? so then celtics do?

does this mean i can larp as TÜRK hunnic proudly now??

[Rico33]

Does this mean germanics have hunnic dna? so then celtics do?

does this mean i can larp as TÜRK hunnic proudly now??

The latest video by Kings and Generals on YouTube about the Huns talks about the Germanic and Huns being mixed and certain Germanic noblemen were part Hun. So maybe the common peopl mixed as well.

https://youtu.be/bFpQjWtpHcM