Which have more Greek ancestry: Turks or Greece's northern neighbours?

[Voskos]

Honest question.

[Blondie]

Greece's northern neighbours for sure

[SharpFork]

Do Anatolian Greeks count?

[Thracian]

It depends.

Anatolian Turks usually have more Anatolian Greek ancestry than Greece's Northern neighbors. Yet, the Western Anatolian Turks also have mainlander and islander Greek ancestry.

Greece's Northern neighbors have Greek ancestry from Northern Greece.

[21993]

Northern neighbours of Greece have more. Greek, Arabic, Slavic and Balkanic admixtures in Anatolia are over represented by some.

[Jana]

Turks. Not much actual Greek blood in Balkans, Thracians and Illyrians were not Grek

[Voskos]

According to this study the most is found in Georgians(19.5%) and Romanians(18.1%):
http://admixturemap.paintmychromosomes.com

Does it make sense?

[Bornoz]

Turks can be modelled as %60 Greek %40 Turkmen.
Check how can Northern neighbours of Greece be modelled and decide.

[Gaditanian]

Turks

[Dušan]

Turks. Not much actual Greek blood in Balkans, Thracians and Illyrians were not Grek

Thracians and Ilyrians were genetically related to Greeks.
All Slavic Balkanites have lot Greek admixture in mixed mode oracles in most of calculators.

[Dušan]

double

[Adamastor]

Turks. Many Turks are turkified Pontic Greeks or Capaddocian Greeks and in some parts of Turkey they also have mainland Greek and islander ancestry.

Balkanites are mostly Paleo-Balkan + Slavic.

[Bellbeaking]

Turks can be modelled as %60 Greek %40 Turkmen.
Check how can Northern neighbours of Greece be modelled and decide.

That 60% isn't actual greek though, its just anatolian. A lot of the so called 'Greek' Ancestry in Turkey is indigenous Anatolian ancestry.

[Adamastor]

That 60% isn't actual greek though, its just anatolian. A lot of the so called 'Greek' Ancestry in Turkey is indigenous Anatolian ancestry.

Anatolian Greeks are also Greeks, no? By Greek I understand any Greek speaking population, not just modern mainland Greeks.

[SharpFork]

Anatolian Greeks are also Greeks, no? By Greek I understand any Greek speaking population, not just modern mainland Greeks.

Yes this is a key point, were the Aegean Greeks in Anatolia always Anatolian genetically? If yes we are basically excluding a population that was Greek speaking since the early Archaic era for no reason at all.

[Adamastor]

Yes this is a key point, were the Aegean Greeks in Anatolia always Anatolian genetically? If yes we are basically excluding a population that was Greek speaking since the early Archaic era for no reason at all.

Sure. WHen they say these people are/were ''hellenized natives'' they are implying it's a recent trend when much of Western Anatolia was already Greek-speaking by the 10th century before Common Era. Herodotus, Pre-Socratic Philosophers and many other famous ancient Greeks were actually from Western Anatolia.

Western Anatolia became Greek not much after Balkan region that is now modern Greece was hellenized by proto-Greeks.

[Nurzat]

Honest question.

in Romania the nobles were mostly Greeks (Phanariotes) - almost any village in Wallachia and Moldova had one or more Greek noble families and it's said these landowners/boyars were also fucking the local native village girls, so a lot of Romanians in Wallachia and Moldova must have such Greek ancestry from out of wedlock affairs of the boyars, many times if not most times probably against the will of the girls. almost all nobles, at least the more important families, in Wallachia and Moldova, were of non-Vlach origin, as well as the public offices: Greeks (Phanariotes) mostly, but also Albanians (Arvanites) and Armenians. later on, the Jews established themselves as main merchants and the Aromanians (Armani) took a lot of public office as well. so some Greek ancestry into Romanians can also come from Albanians and Aromanians.


nMonte G25:

"sample": "Romanian:Average",
"fit": 0.49

"Greek": 57.5%
"German": 20.83%
"Ukrainian": 19.17%
"Tatar_Kazan": 2.5%


"sample": "Romanian:Average",
"fit": 0.5615,

"Albanian": 35%
"Greek": 31.67%
"Ukrainian": 19.17%
"Swedish": 14.17%


dunno why the Romanian sample gets 15-20% Germanic if I throw it in there. vs mine:


"sample": "Custom:Nurzat",
"fit": 1.0611

"Ukrainian": 44.17%
"Greek": 36.67%
"German": 15%
"Tatar_Kazan": 4.17%


"sample": "Custom:Nurzat",
"fit": 1.0626,

"Ukrainian": 48.33%
"Greek": 23.33%
"Albanian": 17.5%
"Swedish": 10.83%

[Bornoz]

That 60% isn't actual greek though, its just anatolian. A lot of the so called 'Greek' Ancestry in Turkey is indigenous Anatolian ancestry.

''Just'' Anatolian :lol:
By that logic you can only call Cretans as ''Greek'' and even they are influenced heavily by Northern invaders. They are our closest Greek plot after Anatolian Greeks though.
We are relatively close to Myceneans despite our Turkmen background and Iranian influence

https://www.imagevisit.com/images/2019/08/24/plot.png

By the way believe me bro, Anatolians are not just Anatolians. Anatolia is one of the most valuable parts of the world and and so are its people :thumb001:

[Jana]

Thracians and Ilyrians were genetically related to Greeks.
All Slavic Balkanites have lot Greek admixture in mixed mode oracles in most of calculators.

True, they were, still they were not Greeks.
Eurogenes does not have Albanian samples who share much more ancestry with us.

[Bellbeaking]

''Just'' Anatolian :lol:
By that logic you can only call Cretans as ''Greek'' and even they are influenced heavily by Northern invaders. They are our closest plot Greek plot after Anatolian Greeks though.
We are relatively close to Myceneans despite our Turkmen background and Iranian influence

https://www.2019/08/24/plot.png

By the way believe me bro, Anatolians are not just Anatolians. Anatolia is one of the most valuable parts of the world and and so are its people :thumb001:

I am 1/4 anatolian greek myself

[Bornoz]

I am 1/4 anatolian greek myself

Oh cool
Where are you from?

[Bunalim]

''Just'' Anatolian :lol:
By that logic you can only call Cretans as ''Greek'' and even they are influenced heavily by Northern invaders. They are our closest Greek plot after Anatolian Greeks though.
We are relatively close to Myceneans despite our Turkmen background and Iranian influence

https://www.imagevisit.com/images/2019/08/24/plot.png

By the way believe me bro, Anatolians are not just Anatolians. Anatolia is one of the most valuable parts of the world and and so are its people :thumb001:

I'm not convinced that Pontic Greeks are Greek

[Bornoz]

I'm not convinced that Pontic Greeks are Greek

1-That's not what I am trying to prove
2-It is your choice

[Rgvgjhvv]

I'm not convinced that Pontic Greeks are Greek

Moron

[catgeorge]

Turks. Not much actual Greek blood in Balkans, Thracians and Illyrians were not Grek

How do you know, do you have any evidence?

According to Thessalian neolithic expansion they actually genetically were

Thracians saw themselves as an extension to the Greek race. Who needs any more proof where war-like Thracians and Egalitarian Greeks shared borders for thousands of years but never went to war.

Thrace has always been a part of Hellenic and Byzantine Empire and that ends that.

[catgeorge]

Northern by far

https://www.counter-currents.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Spread-of-Early-Neolithic-Farming-in-Europe-Resize1.jpg

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-44c5dee4962472d015cef3701ad7269a

[Jana]

How do you know, do you have any evidence?

According to Thessalian neolithic expansion they actually genetically were

Thracians saw themselves as an extension to the Greek race. Who needs any more proof where war-like Thracians and Egalitarian Greeks shared borders for thousands of years but never went to war.

Thrace has always been a part of Hellenic and Byzantine Empire and that ends that.

Neither Thracians nor Greeks have origins in Thessalian neolithic, they were Indo-Europeans.

Thracians were not Hellenic and they were most likely Satem speakers.

[Coolguy1]

There is no substantial Greek ancestry in our northern neighbours, except southern Albanians and Fyromians, and Black Sea Bulgarians.

[Bornoz]

Northern by far



If you say ''Our Northern neighbours have more Greek ancestry than Turks'' it is soo OK.
But when you write ''Northern by far'' based on simply nothing, sorry bro but it is nothing but self hating

[Dorian]

Many of those who are absolute in their theories-conclusions will get surprised(or butthurt) as time passes,some mainstream ones may collapse...we have a lot to see,let's hope we'll be here...

[itilvolga]

Both sides have Greek admixture equally, in my opinion.

There’s a regional difference tho; we plot with Cretans, Cypriots, Islanders and Pontians in general and the Northern neighbours of Greeks such as Macedonians plot with Mainlanders more.

[archangel]

Greek ancestry is very low in ethnic Türks

[Tauromachos]

Thracians and Ilyrians were genetically related to Greeks.
All Slavic Balkanites have lot Greek admixture in mixed mode oracles in most of calculators.

Sure

[Tauromachos]

Greek ancestry is very low in ethnic Türks

Tell me which Turk in todays Turkey is realy ethnic

[Adamastor]

There is no such thing as ''Greek race'', the people which we call Greek emerged after a process of linguistic Indo-Europeanization led by proto-Hellenes who were originally from the steppe and hellenized different types of populations in the Anatolia, Balkans and Aegean Islands. A reasonable ''Greek'' ethnogenesis happened after Western Anatolia was already Greek speaking so when you guys exclude them you are actually excluding Herodotus, Homer (the Homeric poems were first compiled in Asia Minor), Pre-Socratic Philosophy from ''Greekness''.

[catgeorge]

Greeks are homogeneous and have been for thousands of years and are today - get over it.

Greeks on average are towards Mycenean by 72.5%.

[Adamastor]

Greeks are homogeneous and have been for thousands of years and are today - get over it.

Greeks on average are towards Mycenean by 72.5%.

Many populations in Southern Europe are heavily Mycenaean, it doesn't mean anything. Modern Balkan Greeks have a lot of ancestry from Ancient Greeks, yeah, but Anatolian Greeks as well since there were already Greek speaking populations with Anatolian genetics in early Greek world. Greeks are not ''homogeneous'' genetically at all, it's hard to think of any population in the world which was once widespread from Southern Italy to Levant and Egypt to be genetically homogeneous.

The thing is that for historical reasons Greeks lost a lot of the territory they had in the past and are now confined to the Balkan peninsula and the islands. In antiquity the Greek world was much bigger.

[catgeorge]

Many populations in Southern Europe are heavily Mycenaean, it doesn't mean anything. Modern Balkan Greeks have a lot of ancestry from Ancient Greeks, yeah, but Anatolian Greeks as well since there were already Greek speaking populations with Anatolian genetics in early Greek world. Greeks are not ''homogeneous'' genetically at all, it's hard to think of any population in the world which was once widespread from Southern Italy to Levant and Egypt to be genetically homogeneous.

The thing is that for historical reasons Greeks lost a lot of the territory they had in the past and are now confined to the Balkan peninsula and the islands. In antiquity the Greek world was much bigger.


Greek language went to Anatolia around 800BC when Greeks colonized the Black Sea Coast and further enhanced those areas during Alexander the Greats empire. No one knows what the natives were speaking perhaps there were none and was empty land to colonise.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/%CE%95%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%AD%C F%82_%CE%B1%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%AF%CE%B5%CF %82_%CE%95%CF%85%CE%BE%CE%B5%CE%AF%CE%BD%CE%BF%CF% 85_%CE%A0%CF%8C%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%85.svg

[archangel]

Tell me which Turk in todays Turkey is realy ethnic

People with high North Euroasian ancestry are ethnic Türks

[Tauromachos]

There is no such thing as ''Greek race'', the people which we call Greek emerged after a process of linguistic Indo-Europeanization led by proto-Hellenes who were originally from the steppe and hellenized different types of populations in the Anatolia, Balkans and Aegean Islands. A reasonable ''Greek'' ethnogenesis happened after Western Anatolia was already Greek speaking so when you guys exclude them you are actually excluding Herodotus, Homer (the Homeric poems were first compiled in Asia Minor), Pre-Socratic Philosophy from ''Greekness''.

Blablabla

Is there such thing as Jewish,Indoeuropean or Slavic or Turkish or Balkan race if there is no Greek one...?
And if yes could you explain what each of these race is or how it looks like and who belongs to each or not..?

There is no proof or evidence that the Greek language has been brought by a group of foreigners"either from the Steppes or from wherever else" to Greece

The earliest traces of Greek language have been found in todays Greece and are dated back to the Bronze Age

Read here Imbecile:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_B



Homeric poems were compiled in Ionia"Ionians a Greek tribe" by Homer a Greek poet and written in Greek"not Turkic;Serbian,Persian or Sanskrit":)

[catgeorge]

People with high North Euroasian ancestry are ethnic Türks

Like which one can you please select?
because you are either no one knows who your daddy was as Turkish YDNA chart is the most colourful in the world OR you have different daddies from the same whore mother?

So which one is it?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Turkey_Y_chromosome%28in_20_haplogroups%29.png

[Adamastor]

Blablabla


Greek is an Indo-European language, Indo-European languages aren't originary of Greece but of the Russian steppe.

[catgeorge]

Greek is an Indo-European language, Indo-European languages aren't originary of Greece but of the Russian steppe.

No it didn't...

Steppes is Satem
Greek is Centum.

Get it right.

[Adamastor]

No it didn't...

Steppes is Satem
Greek is Centum.

Get it right.

All Indo-European languages came originally from the steppe, Greek, Germanic, Latin, Celtic etc. Not only Satem languages.

[Tauromachos]

Greek is an Indo-European language, Indo-European languages aren't originary of Greece but of the Russian steppe.

From where do you know they came from Russian steppe ?

From where do you know Indoeuropean languages are older than Greek they might not be for that matter
but both Indeuropean and Semetic languages might have come from Greek
https://archive.org/details/Hebrew.is.Greek

http://bristolgreeks.co.uk/index.php/heritage/gnosis/did-you-know/item/89-hebrew-is-greek-the-blocked-book-of-joseph-yahuda
"
This ecumenical research will be reviewed by three separate specialists, one for each language researched, although each specialist does have knowledge of the other two languages. This is not an error committed only by me. I attempted repeatedly, yet unsuccessfully, to find more scholars who would be willing to assist me in my quests. As an example of what I was up against, at the very beginning of an hours-long meeting, one potential colleague exclaimed: "All of this is garbage and we are all wasting our time." My answer was: "Both you, and I, will be judged for the words we say, whenever we discuss my work." I hold no hostility or bitterness
because of such small-minded opposition to my belief. In fact, during the progress of my research, I twice attempted to arouse [this man's] interest, but in vain. A little while after the meeting referred to above, I mentioned his degrading comment to Christodoulos Hourmouzios, a graduate of the University of Athens, and an acknowledged specialist on Homer, and he said: ' I think you are one of the greatest linguists I know'; he promised complete cooperation with me. Unfortunately, before we could begin our work, he passed away.
"There were others who admitted that they had been convinced; that something did really exist in my theory. However, they did think that my belief in the correspondence of Hebrew with Greek was rather exaggerated. They said I was too ambitious, and suggested, for my own good, that I expect less and adopt a 'less controversial view.' One of them, Sir Leon Simon (A British Lord of Jewish descent), a known classicist who knew Hebrew, attended my first lecture on the issue on the evening of Jan. 14th, 1959. He did this even though he was old and had to travel a long distance in bad weather and heavy fog. He introduced me, briefly and carefully, not wanting to commit himself to any decision until the end of my speech. Then, before the audience was asked to pose questions, he said the following, which I noted: 'I don't believe that everyone will agree with everything J. Yahuda has told us, as he may have thought that everyone understood what he was saying. Despite any doubts that may exist, I am sure of one thing. He has resolved a mystery that had created confusion for scholars for the past 2.000 years. For, if he is correct in stating that many Greek words that begin with sk were transformed in Hebrew as if sk was a digraph [a combination of two letters to make one simple sound. ed.], or one of the two letters lost, then Homer was not wrong when he left the vrachi [ abbreviated ] vowel at the beginning of the word Skamandros, as in his famous line: 'Ον Ξανθόν καλεουσι θεοί, άνδρες δε Σκάμανδρον'. [The Gods called Xanthos, mortal men Skamandros]. I also had a fruitful interview with a scholar of international fame, which was then followed by a series of exchanges of correspondence. This correspondence ceased after he sent me a note, wherein he wrote: 'It could also be possible that you would say that the English word ball comes from the Greek βάλλω, or that you discover a connection between chow and show since chows are exhibited at shows.
"The result was that I was obliged to fall back on my own sources, and to depend only on my own efforts, thus devoting my free time to this research for the past 30 years or more. Two things kept me going: the unfailing support of my wife, Cecile, and the unprecedented emotions we felt with every new discovery. When my wife was asked by a friend how she was sure of my work, since she knew neither Greek nor Hebrew, she answered: 'But, I know my husband. He hates speculating, he always insists on finding proof. As a lawyer, he is able to evaluate this proof. He tells me that he has plenty of proof that is convincing, and I believe him.' There is truly a plethora of 'proof that is convincing' which I have attempted to make available, not only to those technically specialized, but also to interested, non-specialist researchers."
http://bristolgreeks.co.uk/images/stories/heritage/hebrew_is_greek_part.jpg
"

[Adamastor]

From where do you know they came from Russian steppe ?

From where do you know Indoeuropean languages are older than Greek they might not be for that matter
but both Indeuropean and Semetic languages might have come from Greek


Congratulations, you are officially a KANG.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/vZ4-lSMkp8E/maxresdefault.jpg

[Adamastor]

double

[catgeorge]

All Indo-European languages came originally from the steppe, Greek, Germanic, Latin, Celtic etc. Not only Satem languages.

No they didnt and a little unread.

Satem is influenced by Indo-Iranian
Centum is influenced by Hittiti (ancient Egyptian influenced same with Cypro-Cretan and Linear A) and Tocharian.

Ancient Greeks knew the Tocharians and are written about them in detail via Ptolemy VI listed as an archaic Buddhist language.

[Adamastor]

No they didnt and a little unread.

Satem is influenced by Indo-Iranian
Centum is influenced by Hittiti (ancient Egyptian influenced same with Cypro-Cretan and Linear A) and Tocharian.

Ancient Greeks knew the Tocharians and are written about them in detail via Ptolemy VI listed as an archaic Buddhist language.

:lol::lol::lol:

[Tauromachos]

Many populations in Southern Europe are heavily Mycenaean, it doesn't mean anything. Modern Balkan Greeks have a lot of ancestry from Ancient Greeks, yeah, but Anatolian Greeks as well since there were already Greek speaking populations with Anatolian genetics in early Greek world. Greeks are not ''homogeneous'' genetically at all, it's hard to think of any population in the world which was once widespread from Southern Italy to Levant and Egypt to be genetically homogeneous.

Yeah its true but most people who are directly descended from Anatolian Greeks live today in Greece or are part of the modern Greek ethnos
after their ancestry were in 1920-1922 and some of them also later on forced to leave Asia Minor and go to Greece by the nationalist Young Turk movement



The thing is that for historical reasons Greeks lost a lot of the territory they had in the past and are now confined to the Balkan peninsula and the islands. In antiquity the Greek world was much bigger.

Yes it was but most heirs of the Greek/Greek speaking people from these regions outside todays Greece live nowadays in Greece

[Adamastor]

Yeah its true but most people who are directly descended from Anatolian Greeks live today in Greece or are part of the modern Greek ethnos
after their ancestry were in 1920-1922 and some of them also later on forced to leave Asia Minor and go to Greece by the nationalist Young Turk movement



Yes it was but most heirs of the Greek/Greek speaking people from these regions outside todays Greece live nowadays in Greece

A part of them, yes. But would be naive to think Greek people in all these regions just got all expelled. People have switched identities throughout history, no nation is homogeneous since the beggining of time lol.

People in these forums like to discuss petty stuff for nationalistic reasons, but the fact is that no Old World ethnicity is completely pure when compared to its neighbours.

[catgeorge]

A part of them, yes. But would be naive to think Greek people in all these regions just got all expelled. People have switched identities throughout history, no nation is homogeneous since the beggining of time lol.

People in these forums like to discuss petty stuff for nationalistic reasons, but the fact is that no Old World ethnicity is completely pure when compared to its neighbours.

Absolute leftist egalitarian rubbish.

Homogeneous is a specific and correct term - deal with it.

[Tauromachos]

A part of them, yes. But would be naive to think Greek people in all these regions just got all expelled. People have switched identities throughout history, no nation is homogeneous since the beggining of time lol.

People descending from real Anatolian Greek people "that means people in Anatolia who were not only Greek by some ancestry but also by
identity and language" live today in Greece and are Greek by nationality ,often mixed and married with other "Non Anatolian " Greek people including
Mainlanders"lol"

Modern Turcs have no direct claim on anything related to Greek heritage or culture in their country "unless they show sincere interest and respect for our country Greece,its history and its right for existence and selfdetermination"since they choose themselves to be Turcs
or whatever so if they want to brag about something they should brag about things brought forward by the culture and identity they choose and not by
Greeks

Same applies to Albos,Fyromanians and other such folks who might have Greek ancestors but choose to be not Greeks and want to teach
Greeks about their identity or want to claim achievements of Greek/Hellenic culture as their own and not as ours"Greek"




People in these forums like to discuss petty stuff for nationalistic reasons, but the fact is that no Old World ethnicity is completely pure when compared to its neighbours.

Yes of course not

But purity should not even be a matter of debate at least it never realy was for me

[Adamastor]

Absolute leftist egalitarian rubbish.

Homogeneous is a specific and correct term - deal with it.

Not really, just common sense.

[MercifulServant]

Greeks northern neighbors by far.

[Rgvgjhvv]

Bump

[vbnetkhio]

Honest question.

autosomally Greek northern neighbours are very similar to Greeks or often identical to them, and the average Turk pretty much a Cauasian, and far away from Greeks . but Turks probably have more ancestry from actual Greeks.

[Leto]

autosomally Greek northern neighbours are very similar to Greeks or often identical to them, and the average Turk pretty much a Cauasian, and far away from Greeks . but Turks probably have more ancestry from actual Greeks.
From another forum. A Turk from Afyon
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/Afyonkarahisar_in_Turkey.svg/640px-Afyonkarahisar_in_Turkey.svg.png

Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:

Kit DA2718541

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 27.75
2 West_Asian 21.88
3 West_Med 13.83
4 North_Atlantic 9.82
5 Baltic 9.07
6 East_Asian 5.45
7 Siberian 5.17
8 Red_Sea 3.72
9 South_Asian 1.8
10 Oceanian 1.45
11 Northeast_African 0.06

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Turkish 10.32
2 Central_Greek 13.35
3 East_Sicilian 14.07
4 South_Italian 14.77
5 Ashkenazi 15
6 Azeri 15.33
7 Italian_Abruzzo 15.6
8 Greek_Thessaly 16.76
9 Cyprian 16.76
10 Lebanese_Muslim 16.78
11 Sephardic_Jewish 17.05
12 West_Sicilian 17.61
13 Syrian 17.86
14 Algerian_Jewish 18.3
15 Italian_Jewish 18.39
16 Assyrian 18.89
17 Turkmen 18.99
18 Tunisian_Jewish 19.03
19 Georgian_Jewish 19.5
20 Libyan_Jewish 19.76

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 54.7% Italian_Jewish + 45.3% Nogay @ 4.62
2 57.2% Cyprian + 42.8% Nogay @ 4.78
3 54.9% Algerian_Jewish + 45.1% Nogay @ 4.91
4 53.8% Tunisian_Jewish + 46.2% Nogay @ 5.1
5 56.8% Sephardic_Jewish + 43.2% Nogay @ 5.14
6 59.9% Central_Greek + 40.1% Turkmen @ 5.38
7 56.5% Ashkenazi + 43.5% Turkmen @ 5.43
8 58.4% East_Sicilian + 41.6% Turkmen @ 5.52
9 62.7% Ashkenazi + 37.3% Balkar @ 5.7
10 60.5% Ashkenazi + 39.5% Nogay @ 5.71
11 52.9% Libyan_Jewish + 47.1% Nogay @ 5.74
12 64.9% Turkish + 35.1% Greek_Thessaly @ 5.89
13 57.1% South_Italian + 42.9% Turkmen @ 5.93
14 71.2% Turkish + 28.8% Bulgarian @ 5.97
15 73.5% Turkish + 26.5% Romanian @ 6.2
16 61.2% South_Italian + 38.8% Nogay @ 6.27
17 51% Algerian_Jewish + 49% Turkmen @ 6.29
18 76.7% Turkish + 23.3% Serbian @ 6.3
19 63.8% Ashkenazi + 36.2% Kabardin @ 6.33
20 65.9% Ashkenazi + 34.1% North_Ossetian @ 6.34


Dodecad K12b Oracle results:

Kit DA2718541

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 36.83
2 Atlantic_Med 14.64
3 North_European 13.72
4 Gedrosia 10.44
5 Southwest_Asian 10.33
6 East_Asian 4.63
7 Siberian 3.39
8 Southeast_Asian 3.13
9 Northwest_African 1.37
10 South_Asian 1.32
11 East_African 0.21

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Turkish (Dodecad) 10.53
2 Turks (Behar) 11.81
3 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 14.11
4 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 15.18
5 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 16.7
6 Greek (Dodecad) 16.75
7 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 16.97
8 Sicilian (Dodecad) 17.2
9 Lebanese (Behar) 17.95
10 Kumyks (Yunusbayev) 18.44
11 Cypriots (Behar) 18.45
12 Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) 18.78
13 Nogais (Yunusbayev) 19.21
14 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 19.7
15 Kurds (Yunusbayev) 21.01
16 Kurd (Dodecad) 21.17
17 Syrians (Behar) 21.19
18 Iranian (Dodecad) 21.22
19 Turkmens (Yunusbayev) 21.41
20 C_Italian (Dodecad) 21.45

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 53.4% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 46.6% Nogais (Yunusbayev) @ 5.05
2 61.3% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 38.7% Turkmens (Yunusbayev) @ 5.18
3 59.4% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 40.6% Turkmens (Yunusbayev) @ 5.47
4 50.7% Nogais (Yunusbayev) + 49.3% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 5.89
5 86.5% Turkish (Dodecad) + 13.5% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 6.16
6 81.3% Turks (Behar) + 18.7% French (HGDP) @ 6.16
7 86.4% Turkish (Dodecad) + 13.6% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 6.18
8 83.5% Turks (Behar) + 16.5% British_Isles (Dodecad) @ 6.2
9 82.7% Turks (Behar) + 17.3% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 6.26
10 83% Turks (Behar) + 17% Kent (1000Genomes) @ 6.28
11 84.5% Turks (Behar) + 15.5% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 6.28
12 83.1% Turks (Behar) + 16.9% English (Dodecad) @ 6.28
13 83.5% Turks (Behar) + 16.5% British (Dodecad) @ 6.29
14 83.1% Turks (Behar) + 16.9% CEU30 (1000Genomes) @ 6.29
15 81.6% Turks (Behar) + 18.4% German (Dodecad) @ 6.32
16 83.9% Turks (Behar) + 16.1% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 6.32
17 83.9% Turks (Behar) + 16.1% Irish (Dodecad) @ 6.33
18 83.4% Turks (Behar) + 16.6% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 6.33
19 86.1% Turkish (Dodecad) + 13.9% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 6.33
20 83.9% Turks (Behar) + 16.1% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 6.33

[vbnetkhio]

From another forum. A Turk from Afyon


They seem just Greek + Turkic, without much native Anatolian.

61.3% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 38.7% Turkmens (Yunusbayev)

Ashkenazi means Greek too, Ahskenazis are basically mostly Greeks who converted to Judaism. and most European Jews plot as South Italians or Greeks on PCAs.

[Rgvgjhvv]

From another forum. A Turk from Afyon
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/Afyonkarahisar_in_Turkey.svg/640px-Afyonkarahisar_in_Turkey.svg.png

Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:

Kit DA2718541

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 27.75
2 West_Asian 21.88
3 West_Med 13.83
4 North_Atlantic 9.82
5 Baltic 9.07
6 East_Asian 5.45
7 Siberian 5.17
8 Red_Sea 3.72
9 South_Asian 1.8
10 Oceanian 1.45
11 Northeast_African 0.06

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Turkish 10.32
2 Central_Greek 13.35
3 East_Sicilian 14.07
4 South_Italian 14.77
5 Ashkenazi 15
6 Azeri 15.33
7 Italian_Abruzzo 15.6
8 Greek_Thessaly 16.76
9 Cyprian 16.76
10 Lebanese_Muslim 16.78
11 Sephardic_Jewish 17.05
12 West_Sicilian 17.61
13 Syrian 17.86
14 Algerian_Jewish 18.3
15 Italian_Jewish 18.39
16 Assyrian 18.89
17 Turkmen 18.99
18 Tunisian_Jewish 19.03
19 Georgian_Jewish 19.5
20 Libyan_Jewish 19.76

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 54.7% Italian_Jewish + 45.3% Nogay @ 4.62
2 57.2% Cyprian + 42.8% Nogay @ 4.78
3 54.9% Algerian_Jewish + 45.1% Nogay @ 4.91
4 53.8% Tunisian_Jewish + 46.2% Nogay @ 5.1
5 56.8% Sephardic_Jewish + 43.2% Nogay @ 5.14
6 59.9% Central_Greek + 40.1% Turkmen @ 5.38
7 56.5% Ashkenazi + 43.5% Turkmen @ 5.43
8 58.4% East_Sicilian + 41.6% Turkmen @ 5.52
9 62.7% Ashkenazi + 37.3% Balkar @ 5.7
10 60.5% Ashkenazi + 39.5% Nogay @ 5.71
11 52.9% Libyan_Jewish + 47.1% Nogay @ 5.74
12 64.9% Turkish + 35.1% Greek_Thessaly @ 5.89
13 57.1% South_Italian + 42.9% Turkmen @ 5.93
14 71.2% Turkish + 28.8% Bulgarian @ 5.97
15 73.5% Turkish + 26.5% Romanian @ 6.2
16 61.2% South_Italian + 38.8% Nogay @ 6.27
17 51% Algerian_Jewish + 49% Turkmen @ 6.29
18 76.7% Turkish + 23.3% Serbian @ 6.3
19 63.8% Ashkenazi + 36.2% Kabardin @ 6.33
20 65.9% Ashkenazi + 34.1% North_Ossetian @ 6.34


Dodecad K12b Oracle results:

Kit DA2718541

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 36.83
2 Atlantic_Med 14.64
3 North_European 13.72
4 Gedrosia 10.44
5 Southwest_Asian 10.33
6 East_Asian 4.63
7 Siberian 3.39
8 Southeast_Asian 3.13
9 Northwest_African 1.37
10 South_Asian 1.32
11 East_African 0.21

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Turkish (Dodecad) 10.53
2 Turks (Behar) 11.81
3 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 14.11
4 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 15.18
5 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 16.7
6 Greek (Dodecad) 16.75
7 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 16.97
8 Sicilian (Dodecad) 17.2
9 Lebanese (Behar) 17.95
10 Kumyks (Yunusbayev) 18.44
11 Cypriots (Behar) 18.45
12 Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) 18.78
13 Nogais (Yunusbayev) 19.21
14 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 19.7
15 Kurds (Yunusbayev) 21.01
16 Kurd (Dodecad) 21.17
17 Syrians (Behar) 21.19
18 Iranian (Dodecad) 21.22
19 Turkmens (Yunusbayev) 21.41
20 C_Italian (Dodecad) 21.45

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 53.4% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 46.6% Nogais (Yunusbayev) @ 5.05
2 61.3% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 38.7% Turkmens (Yunusbayev) @ 5.18
3 59.4% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 40.6% Turkmens (Yunusbayev) @ 5.47
4 50.7% Nogais (Yunusbayev) + 49.3% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 5.89
5 86.5% Turkish (Dodecad) + 13.5% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 6.16
6 81.3% Turks (Behar) + 18.7% French (HGDP) @ 6.16
7 86.4% Turkish (Dodecad) + 13.6% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 6.18
8 83.5% Turks (Behar) + 16.5% British_Isles (Dodecad) @ 6.2
9 82.7% Turks (Behar) + 17.3% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 6.26
10 83% Turks (Behar) + 17% Kent (1000Genomes) @ 6.28
11 84.5% Turks (Behar) + 15.5% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 6.28
12 83.1% Turks (Behar) + 16.9% English (Dodecad) @ 6.28
13 83.5% Turks (Behar) + 16.5% British (Dodecad) @ 6.29
14 83.1% Turks (Behar) + 16.9% CEU30 (1000Genomes) @ 6.29
15 81.6% Turks (Behar) + 18.4% German (Dodecad) @ 6.32
16 83.9% Turks (Behar) + 16.1% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 6.32
17 83.9% Turks (Behar) + 16.1% Irish (Dodecad) @ 6.33
18 83.4% Turks (Behar) + 16.6% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 6.33
19 86.1% Turkish (Dodecad) + 13.9% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 6.33
20 83.9% Turks (Behar) + 16.1% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 6.33

I guess a "Balkan Turk" but very cool I like it.

[Leto]

Ashkenazi means Greek too, Ahskenazis are basically mostly Greeks who converted to Judaism.
Not sure about that. Ashkenazim are around half Middle Eastern.

[vbnetkhio]

Not sure about that. Ashkenazim are around half Middle Eastern.

perhaps being half Middle Eastern and half Germanic or Slavic makes them similar to Greeks.
i read somewhere about Judaism being very popular in Roman era Greece and a lot of Greeks converted. i don't know how true is that.

[Thracian]

I guess a "Balkan Turk" but very cool I like it.

I don't think he is a Balkan Turk. His Baltic and North Atlantic scores are too low and West Asian and East Med are too high. He is just a Western Anatolian Turk. I haven't seen any of Western Anatolian Greek results yet I think they should be very similar to Mainlander Greeks unlike Central Anatolian Greeks such as Cappadocian Greeks.

[Leto]

perhaps being half Middle Eastern and half Germanic or Slavic makes them similar to Greeks.
i read somewhere about Judaism being very popular in Roman era Greece and a lot of Greeks converted. i don't know how true is that.


Abstract

The Ashkenazi Jewish (AJ) population is important in genetics due to its high rate of Mendelian disorders. AJ appeared in Europe in the 10th century, and their ancestry is thought to comprise European (EU) and Middle-Eastern (ME) components. However, both the time and place of admixture are subject to debate. Here, we attempt to characterize the AJ admixture history using a careful application of new and existing methods on a large AJ sample. Our main approach was based on local ancestry inference, in which we first classified each AJ genomic segment as EU or ME, and then compared allele frequencies along the EU segments to those of different EU populations. The contribution of each EU source was also estimated using GLOBETROTTER and haplotype sharing. The time of admixture was inferred based on multiple statistics, including ME segment lengths, the total EU ancestry per chromosome, and the correlation of ancestries along the chromosome. The major source of EU ancestry in AJ was found to be Southern Europe (≈60–80% of EU ancestry), with the rest being likely Eastern European. The inferred admixture time was ≈30 generations ago, but multiple lines of evidence suggest that it represents an average over two or more events, pre- and post-dating the founder event experienced by AJ in late medieval times. The time of the pre-bottleneck admixture event, which was likely Southern European, was estimated to ≈25–50 generations ago.

Author summary

The Ashkenazi Jewish population has resided in Europe for much of its 1000-year existence. However, its ethnic and geographic origins are controversial, due to the scarcity of reliable historical records. Previous genetic studies have found links to Middle-Eastern and European ancestries, but the admixture history has not been studied in detail yet, partly due to technical difficulties in disentangling signals from multiple admixture events. Here, we present an in-depth analysis of the sources of European gene flow and the time of admixture events by using multiple new and existing methods and extensive simulations. Our results suggest a model of at least two events of European admixture. One event slightly pre-dated a late medieval founder event and was likely from a Southern European source. Another event post-dated the founder event and likely occurred in Eastern Europe. These results, as well as the methods introduced, will be highly valuable for geneticists and other researchers interested in Ashkenazi Jewish origins.


Running RFMix on the AJ genomes with our EU and ME reference panels and summing up the lengths of all tracts assigned to each ancestry, the genome-wide ancestry was ≈53% EU and ≈47% ME, consistent with our previous estimate based on a smaller sequencing panel [9].

...

To quantitatively estimate the contribution of each subcontinental European region, we used the above-mentioned proportions of chromosomes classified to each EU region as summary statistics, and matched them to simulations in which the proportions of ancestry contributed by each region is known. Specifically, we performed 4-way admixture simulations between individuals of Levantine, Southern European, Eastern European, and Western European origin. In these simulations, we fixed the Levantine admixture proportion to 50% and varied the proportions of the different European regions. We then used a grid search to find the ancestry proportions that best fit the observed fraction of AJ chromosomes classified as each ancestry. The simulation results (Fig 2) suggest that the European component of the AJ cohort is 34% Southern EU, 8% Western EU, and 8% Eastern EU. This analysis thus suggests that roughly 70% of EU ancestry in AJ is Southern European. Using bootstrapping (S1 Text section 3), the 95% confidence interval of the Southern EU ancestry was [33,35]% and that of Eastern EU was [8,9]%. However, bootstrapping does not account for any systematic biases, which in this case are of larger magnitude (S1 Text section 3 and below).
https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006644

[Ylla]

Northern neighbours

[Dorian]

perhaps being half Middle Eastern and half Germanic or Slavic makes them similar to Greeks.
i read somewhere about Judaism being very popular in Roman era Greece and a lot of Greeks converted. i don't know how true is that.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14484-Could-Western-Jews-(Ash-and-Seph-)-descend-from-Aegeans-and-Levantine-admixture

[Rgvgjhvv]

I don't think he is a Balkan Turk. His Baltic and North Atlantic scores are too low and West Asian and East Med are too high. He is just a Western Anatolian Turk. I haven't seen any of Western Anatolian Greek results yet I think they should be very similar to Mainlander Greeks unlike Central Anatolian Greeks such as Cappadocian Greeks.

You might be right but I thought I've seen Western Turk results that aren't too much different from Central/Eastern Turk results, minus a more minor Greek influence in their results. The latter are more toward the Caucasus.

@itilvolga @Kaspias

[Rgvgjhvv]

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14484-Could-Western-Jews-(Ash-and-Seph-)-descend-from-Aegeans-and-Levantine-admixture

Sad, the forum won't let me view the thread.

[Dorian]

Sad, the forum won't let me view the thread.

Just create a random account :p has good stuff...

[vbnetkhio]

his analysis thus suggests that roughly 70% of EU ancestry in AJ is Southern European.
that could be the Greek influence.


the genome-wide ancestry was ≈53% EU and ≈47% ME
maybe this ME/Levantine includes Natufian influence too, which all Europeans have? how much ME would Greeks get in their analysis?
anyways Ashkenazis in calculators and PCA end up close to Greek islanders, South Italians, Ancient Greeks

[Dick]

perhaps being half Middle Eastern and half Germanic or Slavic makes them similar to Greeks.
i read somewhere about Judaism being very popular in Roman era Greece and a lot of Greeks converted. i don't know how true is that.

I don’t think ashkenazi Jewish samples should be used at all regarding admixture calculus since They can vary. There was an ashkenazi user here before that had a good chunk of Germanic and he didn’t even know about it since he is 100% ashkenazi for example

[Bornoz]

I guess a "Balkan Turk" but very cool I like it.

That's an extremely typical result from Western part of Central Anatolia.
I've seen results that are closer to modern mainland Greeks than this one from that area.

[Bornoz]

You might be right but I thought I've seen Western Turk results that aren't too much different from Central/Eastern Turk results, minus a more minor Greek influence in their results. The latter are more toward the Caucasus.

@itilvolga @Kaspias

Well, if you guess this one as a Balkan Turk result then you haven't seen so much Turkish results before. This result is not so different from Eastern, Central-Eastern Turkish results. There is not a gigantic genetical difference even between Easternmost Turks and Westernmost Greeks already.

[itilvolga]

I guess a "Balkan Turk" but very cool I like it.

If he’s originally from there, then, an Eastern Aegean Turk.

[Leto]

This result is not so different from Eastern, Central-Eastern Turkish results. There is not a gigantic genetical difference even between Easternmost Turks and Westernmost Greeks already.
Aren't they closer to Kurds, Azerbaijanis and even Armenians?

[catgeorge]

Well, if you guess this one as a Balkan Turk result then you haven't seen so much Turkish results before. This result is not so different from Eastern, Central-Eastern Turkish results. There is not a gigantic genetical difference even between Easternmost Turks and Westernmost Greeks already.


Turks plot in Keyseri - Mainland Greeks generally speaking dont have ancestry from Anatolia

[Marmara]

Aren't they closer to Kurds, Azerbaijanis and even Armenians?

Yes. The difference is bigger than what Bornoz says.

[Marmara]

Forget about it, seems he is average for the region.

[Bornoz]

Aren't they closer to Kurds, Azerbaijanis and even Armenians?

Of course, but I said gigantic.
They are not close but not so far in the end of the day.

[catgeorge]

Of course, but I said gigantic.
They are not close but not so far in the end of the day.

What you're trying to say Greeks are equidistant between x and x.

The same can be applied with equidistant from any angle you wish to select.

[Bornoz]

What you're trying to say Greeks are equidistant between x and x.

The same can be applied with equidistant from any angle you wish to select.

Yes.

[Rgvgjhvv]

That's an extremely typical result from Western part of Central Anatolia.
I've seen results that are closer to modern mainland Greeks than this one from that area.


Well, if you guess this one as a Balkan Turk result then you haven't seen so much Turkish results before. This result is not so different from Eastern, Central-Eastern Turkish results. There is not a gigantic genetical difference even between Easternmost Turks and Westernmost Greeks already.

Very different sentiment than what I have heard from users on TA, to be honest. If this is the case, why are users on TA so sure Greeks and Turks are genetically far apart? This sample would mean we are very close!

[catgeorge]

Very different sentiment than what I have heard from users on TA, to be honest. If this is the case, why are users on TA so sure Greeks and Turks are genetically far apart? This sample would mean we are very close!

Just because you're close to them doesnt mean everyone else is. Its just your island is closer to Turks than Athens.

That's fine but don't lump us all in the same boat. We just dont have ancestry from Anatolia - there is not even a 1% strain in genetic results.

[Thracian]

You might be right but I thought I've seen Western Turk results that aren't too much different from Central/Eastern Turk results, minus a more minor Greek influence in their results. The latter are more toward the Caucasus.

@itilvolga @Kaspias

That one is also pretty normal for his region. On the other hand, most likely this sample shared by Turkish DNA. That means his 4/4 ancestors are from the same city.

[Rgvgjhvv]

Just because you're close to them doesnt mean everyone else is. Its just your island is closer to Turks than Athens.

That's fine but don't lump us all in the same boat. We just dont have ancestry from Anatolia - there is not even a 1% strain in genetic results.

What I mean is, from that person's results, Greeks are literally the second closest population genetically close to them. I thought that was basically impossible for a Turk from what I understood. Now they're saying it's very typical? Confusing...

[catgeorge]

What I mean is, from that person's results, Greeks are literally the second closest population genetically close to them. I thought that was basically impossible for a Turk from what I understood. Now they're saying it's very typical? Confusing...

If they come from Constantinople, Pontus and Smyrna - plausible. It's case by case.

Majority of them plot in Keyseri - equidistantly speaking they are half way between Syria and Caucasus.

[Mingle]

I guess a "Balkan Turk" but very cool I like it.

Leto just said that he was from Afyon which is in west-central Anatolia.


I don't think he is a Balkan Turk. His Baltic and North Atlantic scores are too low and West Asian and East Med are too high. He is just a Western Anatolian Turk. I haven't seen any of Western Anatolian Greek results yet I think they should be very similar to Mainlander Greeks unlike Central Anatolian Greeks such as Cappadocian Greeks.

There were some Smyrnians posted here before and they were genetically closest to Greek Islanders.

[Mingle]

Not sure about that. Ashkenazim are around half Middle Eastern.

There's no proof for that. They have West Asian Y-DNA mostly but their autosomal results are the same as Greek Islanders and South Italians. They can get modeled as half-West Asian, but the same applies to the other populations that they cluster with. Ashkenazis being half-Palestinian and half-North Italian (their model) seems quite unlikely. Why would they pick up so much North Italian DNA but not any South Italian? Why would they be half-Palestinian when Palestinians are genetically different to the ancient inhabitants (Samaritans)? Also, South Italians and Greek Islanders are genetically close to Myceneans so it seems unlikely that Greeks/Italians cluster with Jews due to them receiving significant West Asian input. It seems more likely Ashkenazis are of mostly Mycenean ancestry with minor ancient Israeli.

[Rgvgjhvv]

There's no proof for that. They have West Asian Y-DNA mostly but their autosomal results are the same as Greek Islanders and South Italians. They can get modeled as half-West Asian, but the same applies to the other populations that they cluster with. Ashkenazis being half-Palestinian and half-North Italian (their model) seems quite unlikely. Why would they pick up so much North Italian DNA but not any South Italian? Why would they be half-Palestinian when Palestinians are genetically different to the ancient inhabitants (Samaritans)? Also, South Italians and Greek Islanders are genetically close to Myceneans so it seems unlikely that Greeks/Italians cluster with Jews due to them receiving significant West Asian input. It seems more likely Ashkenazis are of mostly Mycenean ancestry with minor ancient Israeli.

I thought Myceneans have significant "West Asian" input as we would call it in the modern day? So when some Greeks receive x% "Middle Eastern" in genetic testing, it's thanks to the Mycenean ancestry, and nothing to do with any recent admixture. It's just pure Greek.

[catgeorge]

I thought Myceneans have significant "West Asian" input as we would call it in the modern day? So when some Greeks receive x% "Middle Eastern" in genetic testing, it's thanks to the Mycenean ancestry, and nothing to do with any recent admixture. It's just pure Greek.

Thats true - J type YDNA in Greece is older.... so there is no recent input but Mycenean goes back too far. Lots of population movement occured from Seleucid, Bactria, Roman and Byzantine..They were large in territory and it was over a 4000 year period.

[Mingle]

I thought Myceneans have significant "West Asian" input as we would call it in the modern day? So when some Greeks receive x% "Middle Eastern" in genetic testing, it's thanks to the Mycenean ancestry, and nothing to do with any recent admixture. It's just pure Greek.

Well yes, that's true, but that's going too far back to a different time period.

[Kaspias]

You might be right but I thought I've seen Western Turk results that aren't too much different from Central/Eastern Turk results, minus a more minor Greek influence in their results. The latter are more toward the Caucasus.

@itilvolga @Kaspias

He is not Balkan Turk, brother, he is typical Central-West Anatolian

[Rgvgjhvv]

He is not Balkan Turk, brother, he is typical Central-West Anatolian

These Turks from Aydin seem to be genetically farther East than him though:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?224818-Western-Turks-GEDmatch-results

Maybe the greater Turkmen ancestry is the reason?

[Marmara]

These Turks from Aydin seem to be genetically farther East than him though:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?224818-Western-Turks-GEDmatch-results

Maybe the greater Turkmen ancestry is the reason?

Possibly.

[itilvolga]

These Turks from Aydin seem to be genetically farther East than him though:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?224818-Western-Turks-GEDmatch-results

Maybe the greater Turkmen ancestry is the reason?

Aydin has more Yoruk population than Afyon, that’s normal.

[Kaspias]

These Turks from Aydin seem to be genetically farther East than him though:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?224818-Western-Turks-GEDmatch-results

Maybe the greater Turkmen ancestry is the reason?

Yeah, this is the reason.

[vbnetkhio]

do you know about these samples? i plotted only the Istanbul samples on my PCA, i expected them to be neigbours of Bulgarians, but they are closest to Cypriots, the most southern Greeks



Kit Number: Z051579
Name: Adana23108

Kit Number: Z161847
Name: Adana23112

Kit Number: Z574071
Name: Adana23113

Kit Number: Z189487
Name: Adana23114

Kit Number: Z110195
Name: Adana23117

Kit Number: Z048222
Name: Adana23133

Kit Number: Z092733
Name: Adana23136

Kit Number: Z939078
Name: Adana23144

Kit Number: Z541566
Name: Adana23147

Kit Number: Z415644
Name: Adana23150

Kit Number: Z318840
Name: Aydin18112

Kit Number: Z151315
Name: Aydin18419

Kit Number: Z241189
Name: Aydin18483

Kit Number: Z586240
Name: Aydin18596

Kit Number: Z138473
Name: Aydin18636

Kit Number: Z731765
Name: Aydin18784

Kit Number: Z483358
Name: Aydin18873

Kit Number: Z947746
Name: Balikesir16653

Kit Number: Z655742
Name: Balikesir16675

Kit Number: Z669120
Name: Balikesir16790

Kit Number: Z458140
Name: Balikesir16837

Kit Number: Z480340
Name: Balikesir16887

Kit Number: Z418546
Name: Balikesir17006

Kit Number: Z050256
Name: Istanbul15781

Kit Number: Z627145
Name: Istanbul17778

Kit Number: Z356894
Name: Istanbul19185

Kit Number: Z026788
Name: Istanbul19708

Kit Number: Z360007
Name: Istanbul19810

Kit Number: Z641567
Name: Istanbul20010

Kit Number: Z961635
Name: Istanbul20040

Kit Number: Z167307
Name: Istanbul25081

Kit Number: Z211567
Name: Istanbul25095

Kit Number: Z650044
Name: Istanbul25098

Kit Number: Z178556
Name: Kayseri23271

Kit Number: Z215794
Name: Kayseri23549

Kit Number: Z181305
Name: Kayseri23892

Kit Number: Z050664
Name: Kayseri23967

Kit Number: Z908677
Name: Kayseri24032

Kit Number: Z095313
Name: Kayseri24075

Kit Number: Z351604
Name: Kayseri24266

Kit Number: Z974150
Name: Kayseri24276

Kit Number: Z116859
Name: Kayseri24392

Kit Number: Z586691
Name: Kayseri24402

Kit Number: Z864449
Name: Trabzon21173

Kit Number: Z603032
Name: Trabzon21174

Kit Number: Z628580
Name: Trabzon21177

Kit Number: Z475778
Name: Trabzon21515

Kit Number: Z599846
Name: Trabzon21534

Kit Number: Z298968
Name: Trabzon21544

Kit Number: Z543508
Name: Trabzon21557

Kit Number: Z918587
Name: Trabzon21575

Kit Number: Z650322
Name: Trabzon21645

Kit Number: Z043875
Name: Turkish4BA57

Kit Number: Z014735
Name: Turkish7BA57

Kit Number: Z322143
Name: Turkish8BA62

Kit Number: Z655458
Name: Turkish9BA57

[Rgvgjhvv]

Aydin has more Yoruk population than Afyon, that’s normal.

Ah I see. Interesting I actually learned something new on this forum today. What a shock :lol:

[Marmara]

do you know about these samples? i plotted only the Istanbul samples on my PCA, i expected them to be neigbours of Bulgarians, but they are closest to Cypriots, the most southern Greeks



Kit Number: Z051579
Name: Adana23108

Kit Number: Z161847
Name: Adana23112

Kit Number: Z574071
Name: Adana23113

Kit Number: Z189487
Name: Adana23114

Kit Number: Z110195
Name: Adana23117

Kit Number: Z048222
Name: Adana23133

Kit Number: Z092733
Name: Adana23136

Kit Number: Z939078
Name: Adana23144

Kit Number: Z541566
Name: Adana23147

Kit Number: Z415644
Name: Adana23150

Kit Number: Z318840
Name: Aydin18112

Kit Number: Z151315
Name: Aydin18419

Kit Number: Z241189
Name: Aydin18483

Kit Number: Z586240
Name: Aydin18596

Kit Number: Z138473
Name: Aydin18636

Kit Number: Z731765
Name: Aydin18784

Kit Number: Z483358
Name: Aydin18873

Kit Number: Z947746
Name: Balikesir16653

Kit Number: Z655742
Name: Balikesir16675

Kit Number: Z669120
Name: Balikesir16790

Kit Number: Z458140
Name: Balikesir16837

Kit Number: Z480340
Name: Balikesir16887

Kit Number: Z418546
Name: Balikesir17006

Kit Number: Z050256
Name: Istanbul15781

Kit Number: Z627145
Name: Istanbul17778

Kit Number: Z356894
Name: Istanbul19185

Kit Number: Z026788
Name: Istanbul19708

Kit Number: Z360007
Name: Istanbul19810

Kit Number: Z641567
Name: Istanbul20010

Kit Number: Z961635
Name: Istanbul20040

Kit Number: Z167307
Name: Istanbul25081

Kit Number: Z211567
Name: Istanbul25095

Kit Number: Z650044
Name: Istanbul25098

Kit Number: Z178556
Name: Kayseri23271

Kit Number: Z215794
Name: Kayseri23549

Kit Number: Z181305
Name: Kayseri23892

Kit Number: Z050664
Name: Kayseri23967

Kit Number: Z908677
Name: Kayseri24032

Kit Number: Z095313
Name: Kayseri24075

Kit Number: Z351604
Name: Kayseri24266

Kit Number: Z974150
Name: Kayseri24276

Kit Number: Z116859
Name: Kayseri24392

Kit Number: Z586691
Name: Kayseri24402

Kit Number: Z864449
Name: Trabzon21173

Kit Number: Z603032
Name: Trabzon21174

Kit Number: Z628580
Name: Trabzon21177

Kit Number: Z475778
Name: Trabzon21515

Kit Number: Z599846
Name: Trabzon21534

Kit Number: Z298968
Name: Trabzon21544

Kit Number: Z543508
Name: Trabzon21557

Kit Number: Z918587
Name: Trabzon21575

Kit Number: Z650322
Name: Trabzon21645

Kit Number: Z043875
Name: Turkish4BA57

Kit Number: Z014735
Name: Turkish7BA57

Kit Number: Z322143
Name: Turkish8BA62

Kit Number: Z655458
Name: Turkish9BA57

It says Adana, a province in Southern Turkey.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRCUjSpjdE2nFlE7vEvgLRIpmq2tiEg4 4ePTfCi-KyEkIyxtUeFii_MUyN9

[vbnetkhio]

It says Adana, a province in Southern Turkey.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRCUjSpjdE2nFlE7vEvgLRIpmq2tiEg4 4ePTfCi-KyEkIyxtUeFii_MUyN9

scroll down, there are also istanbul samples

[Thracian]

Leto just said that he was from Afyon which is in west-central Anatolia.



There were some Smyrnians posted here before and they were genetically closest to Greek Islanders.

That's what I thought. The difference should be related with native populations admixtures. I hope I can find them.

[vbnetkhio]

Istanbul Turks in dark red
https://i.imgur.com/k0NWDws.png

[Kivan]

These Turks from Aydin seem to be genetically farther East than him though:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?224818-Western-Turks-GEDmatch-results

Maybe the greater Turkmen ancestry is the reason?

I think the samples and calculators in the thread are cherry-picked. OP is a troll whom had an agenda to portray Turks like more "Eastern".
It's not common Turks from the region be modelled like "half Armenian".

Look at this sample from another province in Western Anatolia(Sakarya):


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_Asian 25.54
2 East_Med 22.28
3 West_Med 12.09
4 Siberian 10.16
5 Baltic 9.88
6 North_Atlantic 7.45
7 East_Asian 4.88
8 Red_Sea 3.06
9 South_Asian 1.70
10 Amerindian 1.65
11 Oceanian 1.32

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Turkish @ 12.895657
2 Turkmen @ 16.245676
3 Azeri @ 16.684412
4 Nogay @ 16.734554
5 Kumyk @ 19.313091
6 Central_Greek @ 21.391880
7 Balkar @ 22.150557
8 East_Sicilian @ 22.433691
9 Kurdish @ 22.761950
10 Kabardin @ 22.909256
11 Iranian @ 23.283205
12 South_Italian @ 23.420187
13 Italian_Abruzzo @ 23.508848
14 Georgian_Jewish @ 23.704876
15 Armenian @ 23.911604
16 Greek_Thessaly @ 23.918442
17 Lebanese_Muslim @ 24.252678
18 Adygei @ 24.461098
19 Assyrian @ 24.486204
20 Ashkenazi @ 24.518797

[Thracian]

do you know about these samples? i plotted only the Istanbul samples on my PCA, i expected them to be neigbours of Bulgarians, but they are closest to Cypriots, the most southern Greeks



Kit Number: Z051579
Name: Adana23108

Kit Number: Z161847
Name: Adana23112

Kit Number: Z574071
Name: Adana23113

Kit Number: Z189487
Name: Adana23114

Kit Number: Z110195
Name: Adana23117

Kit Number: Z048222
Name: Adana23133

Kit Number: Z092733
Name: Adana23136

Kit Number: Z939078
Name: Adana23144

Kit Number: Z541566
Name: Adana23147

Kit Number: Z415644
Name: Adana23150

Kit Number: Z318840
Name: Aydin18112

Kit Number: Z151315
Name: Aydin18419

Kit Number: Z241189
Name: Aydin18483

Kit Number: Z586240
Name: Aydin18596

Kit Number: Z138473
Name: Aydin18636

Kit Number: Z731765
Name: Aydin18784

Kit Number: Z483358
Name: Aydin18873

Kit Number: Z947746
Name: Balikesir16653

Kit Number: Z655742
Name: Balikesir16675

Kit Number: Z669120
Name: Balikesir16790

Kit Number: Z458140
Name: Balikesir16837

Kit Number: Z480340
Name: Balikesir16887

Kit Number: Z418546
Name: Balikesir17006

Kit Number: Z050256
Name: Istanbul15781

Kit Number: Z627145
Name: Istanbul17778

Kit Number: Z356894
Name: Istanbul19185

Kit Number: Z026788
Name: Istanbul19708

Kit Number: Z360007
Name: Istanbul19810

Kit Number: Z641567
Name: Istanbul20010

Kit Number: Z961635
Name: Istanbul20040

Kit Number: Z167307
Name: Istanbul25081

Kit Number: Z211567
Name: Istanbul25095

Kit Number: Z650044
Name: Istanbul25098

Kit Number: Z178556
Name: Kayseri23271

Kit Number: Z215794
Name: Kayseri23549

Kit Number: Z181305
Name: Kayseri23892

Kit Number: Z050664
Name: Kayseri23967

Kit Number: Z908677
Name: Kayseri24032

Kit Number: Z095313
Name: Kayseri24075

Kit Number: Z351604
Name: Kayseri24266

Kit Number: Z974150
Name: Kayseri24276

Kit Number: Z116859
Name: Kayseri24392

Kit Number: Z586691
Name: Kayseri24402

Kit Number: Z864449
Name: Trabzon21173

Kit Number: Z603032
Name: Trabzon21174

Kit Number: Z628580
Name: Trabzon21177

Kit Number: Z475778
Name: Trabzon21515

Kit Number: Z599846
Name: Trabzon21534

Kit Number: Z298968
Name: Trabzon21544

Kit Number: Z543508
Name: Trabzon21557

Kit Number: Z918587
Name: Trabzon21575

Kit Number: Z650322
Name: Trabzon21645

Kit Number: Z043875
Name: Turkish4BA57

Kit Number: Z014735
Name: Turkish7BA57

Kit Number: Z322143
Name: Turkish8BA62

Kit Number: Z655458
Name: Turkish9BA57

You can play with them using Global 25 nMonte runner. As far as I've seen, they are kinda half Greek (like Mainlander not Anatolian) half Turkmen (+Iranic as well).

[Rgvgjhvv]

I think the samples and calculators in the thread are cherry-picked. OP is a troll whom had an agenda to portray Turks like more "Eastern".
It's not common Turks from the region be modelled like "half Armenian".

Look at this sample from another province in Western Anatolia(Sakarya):

Super strong EA admixture causes this person to plot far from Greeks overall. Maybe a Yoruk? So it is true then that there is an obvious foundational relation genetically in the two populations. Only the "foreign" (to Greeks) Turkmen ancestry creates a large separation in some results.

[Dorian]

https://media1.tenor.com/images/d8305dde14424a25518e862786161125/tenor.gif

[Kivan]

Super strong EA admixture causes this person to plot far from Greeks overall. Maybe a Yoruk? So it is true then that there is an obvious foundational relation genetically in the two populations. Only the "foreign" (to Greeks) Turkmen ancestry creates a large separation in some results.

Not only EA but other potential admixtures like West-Asian and/or Iranic-like.
And yes, indeed. It creates a separation but the usual would something like half Aegean Islander, half Turkmen or Nogai, what is different from those samples in the thread you posted.

[vbnetkhio]

You can play with them using Global 25 nMonte runner. As far as I've seen, they are kinda half Greek (like Mainlander not Anatolian) half Turkmen (+Iranic as well).

judging by the pca the ones from Istanbul are mostly Anatolian, far away from Greeks

[Thracian]

judging by the pca the ones from Istanbul are mostly Anatolian, far away from Greeks

Maybe they also have significant amount of Anatolian Greek ancestry. I didn't model them using Anatolian Greek samples.

[Calpurnius]

I thought Myceneans have significant "West Asian" input as we would call it in the modern day? So when some Greeks receive x% "Middle Eastern" in genetic testing, it's thanks to the Mycenean ancestry, and nothing to do with any recent admixture. It's just pure Greek.

They had but the proportions typically seen don't seem to add up. Greeks, especially Cretans, seem to have more Natufian related ancestry when you model all these populations with ancient west Eurasians. So I don't think all of the near east/west asian in Greeks can be attributed to Mycenaeans.
Pic related: https://i.imgur.com/bAUQiVc.png
The biggest tradeoffs are between Anatolia_N and Yamnaya related ancestry, but if Greeks were a simple Mycenaean+Slavic related source the Natufian would go even more down.

[Rgvgjhvv]

They had but the proportions typically seen don't seem to add up. Greeks, especially Cretans, seem to have more Natufian related ancestry when you model all these populations with ancient west Eurasians. So I don't think all of the near east/west asian in Greeks can be attributed to Mycenaeans.
Pic related: https://i.imgur.com/bAUQiVc.png
The biggest tradeoffs are between Anatolia_N and Yamnaya related ancestry, but if Greeks were a simple Mycenaean+Slavic related source the Natufian would go even more down.

Probably just Minoan admixture, which is still Greek.

edit: I took a closer look at the chart. Probably not then!

[Calpurnius]

Probably just Minoan admixture, which is still Greek.
Minoan has even less Natufian, doesn't make sense. What that model tells you is that while even in the neolithic Greeks needed some west asian source, it must have been more northern because it's almost exclusively rich in CHG and Iran_N, and needs little Natufian. Instead as you can see from the pic the Natufian gets higher in modern Greeks while others go down. And indeed when you model Greeks using these sources, especially Cretans model much better if you add one Levantine related source like Roman era Lebanon, which I think is a pretty good proxy for Hellenistic era east mediterranean.

[vbnetkhio]

They had but the proportions typically seen don't seem to add up. Greeks, especially Cretans, seem to have more Natufian related ancestry when you model all these populations with ancient west Eurasians. So I don't think all of the near east/west asian in Greeks can be attributed to Mycenaeans.
Pic related: https://i.imgur.com/bAUQiVc.png
The biggest tradeoffs are between Anatolia_N and Yamnaya related ancestry, but if Greeks were a simple Mycenaean+Slavic related source the Natufian would go even more down.

Mycenaeans and Minoans were west of modern Greeks and south Italians, more neolithic.


ancient Greeks

https://i.imgur.com/24WuneV.png

modern Greeks (without Macedonian Greeks)

https://i.imgur.com/JK6wr1o.png

[Calpurnius]

Mycenaeans and Minoans were west of modern Greeks and south Italians, more neolithic.
Yup indeed, though one just by looking at PCAs can already detect a slow eastward shift even in some neolithic Peloponnese individuals compared to Barcin.
https://i.imgur.com/uaBPygG.png

[SharpFork]

So in otherwords some kind of Lebanese admixture entered Greece during which timeframe exactly?

[catgeorge]

So in otherwords some kind of Lebanese admixture entered Greece during which timeframe exactly?

No its more to the west like Sardinia

[Mingle]

Minoan has even less Natufian, doesn't make sense. What that model tells you is that while even in the neolithic Greeks needed some west asian source, it must have been more northern because it's almost exclusively rich in CHG and Iran_N, and needs little Natufian. Instead as you can see from the pic the Natufian gets higher in modern Greeks while others go down. And indeed when you model Greeks using these sources, especially Cretans model much better if you add one Levantine related source like Roman era Lebanon, which I think is a pretty good proxy for Hellenistic era east mediterranean.

Interesting. Do you think it could be Israelite admixture? If the Ashkenazis are majority Greek/Aegean by their ancestry, it wouldn't be surprising to know that Greeks in turn got some Jewish admixture.

Also, I heard that there was migration of Anatolian Greeks from Anatolia to the Balkans/Greece around the Byzantine period after many Slavs were expelled. Could that also cause an increase in Natufian admixture? If not, do you think Anatolians had a recent genetic impact on Greeks (from the Aegean Islands & Balkan Peninsula) at all? Or Anatolians should they not be used when modeling Greeks?

[catgeorge]

Interesting. Do you think it could be Israelite admixture? If the Ashkenazis are majority Greek/Aegean by their ancestry, it wouldn't be surprising to know that Greeks in turn got some Jewish admixture.

Also, I heard that there was migration of Anatolian Greeks from Anatolia to the Balkans/Greece around the Byzantine period after many Slavs were expelled. Could that also cause an increase in Natufian admixture? If not, do you think Anatolians had a recent genetic impact on Greeks (from the Aegean Islands & Balkan Peninsula) at all? Or Anatolians should they not be used when modeling Greeks?

Byzantines from all over the Greek world settled in Constantinople. It was our capital for many centuries...and like any other capital it attracts people.

[Dorian]

Yup indeed, though one just by looking at PCAs can already detect a slow eastward shift even in some neolithic Peloponnese individuals compared to Barcin.
https://i.imgur.com/uaBPygG.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leleges
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelops
??

[Mingle]

Byzantines from all over the Greek world settled in Constantinople. It was our capital for many centuries...and like any other capital it attracts people.

Not just Constantinople, but Greece (Mainland + Islands) in general. When there was a thread about G25 for Greeks, it was said Greeks should be modeled between three components (Slavs, Mycenaean, Anatolian) with the explanation for using Anatolian being that Greeks have recent Anatolian ancestry from when Anatolians were settled in the Balkans after many Slavs were expelled.

[Calpurnius]

Interesting. Do you think it could be Israelite admixture? If the Ashkenazis are majority Greek/Aegean by their ancestry, it wouldn't be surprising to know that Greeks in turn got some Jewish admixture.

Also, I heard that there was migration of Anatolian Greeks from Anatolia to the Balkans/Greece around the Byzantine period after many Slavs were expelled. Could that also cause an increase in Natufian admixture? If not, do you think Anatolians had a recent genetic impact on Greeks (from the Aegean Islands & Balkan Peninsula) at all? Or Anatolians should they not be used when modeling Greeks?
After Alexander's conquests and the beginning of the Hellenistic era the east Med I think may have been a source of migrants not just to Greece but even to Italy during imperial Rome. East med but also Anatolia itself, which indeed has higher Natufian admixture compared to its older predecessors from the neolithic.
In any case, if I use the closest(to my knowledge) pre Ottoman sample available from Anatolia, MA2198, from the Hellenistic era itself, it doesn't work as good as Roman era Lebanon, especially for Crete whose model improves a lot with it.
What seems to be clear though is that some southern source, especially in the case of Cretans, will always improve whatever fit using only ancient samples from Greece and Europe. Though again it's possible there was structure in ancient Greece itself, especially Crete, so for instance lots of the Slavic ancestry in mainland Greece may in part be a proxy for steppe ancestry entering Greece after the bronze age collapse.

[Rgvgjhvv]

What seems to be clear though is that some southern source, especially in the case of Cretans, will always improve whatever fit using only ancient samples from Greece and Europe. Though again it's possible there was structure in ancient Greece itself, especially Crete, so for instance lots of the Slavic ancestry in mainland Greece may in part be a proxy for steppe ancestry entering Greece after the bronze age collapse.

RIP Sikeliot

[catgeorge]

RIP Sikeliot

hahaha yeah bro anyway dont sweat we have ancestry from everywhere

https://empisteutiko.gr/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/gunaikes_antras_krevati.png

[Dorian]

Though again it's possible there was structure in ancient Greece itself
Out of topic ,I agree and what makes it more complicated is that it's as possible that modern structure isn't representative of the ancient one which means you can't explain things by comparing the two and attributing the differences to what fit you thinks makes sense historically.
(Talking in general ,about various known theories and known types make)

[kleenex]

Turks have minimal Greek ancestry. Turks are a mixture of ancient Anataolians and Turkomen. Not sure about percentages. Mainland Greeks are essentially a mixture of indigenous pre IE populations who were ENF, IE following the Bronze Age, and early Slav migrations which is essentially similar to other Southern Balkanites. This admixture didn't make it to Anatolia but could have been part of the composite genetic structure of Istanbul.

[Mingle]

After Alexander's conquests and the beginning of the Hellenistic era the east Med I think may have been a source of migrants not just to Greece but even to Italy during imperial Rome. East med but also Anatolia itself, which indeed has higher Natufian admixture compared to its older predecessors from the neolithic.
In any case, if I use the closest(to my knowledge) pre Ottoman sample available from Anatolia, MA2198, from the Hellenistic era itself, it doesn't work as good as Roman era Lebanon, especially for Crete whose model improves a lot with it.
What seems to be clear though is that some southern source, especially in the case of Cretans, will always improve whatever fit using only ancient samples from Greece and Europe. Though again it's possible there was structure in ancient Greece itself, especially Crete, so for instance lots of the Slavic ancestry in mainland Greece may in part be a proxy for steppe ancestry entering Greece after the bronze age collapse.

Could it be from the Sea People or the groups mentioned by Dorian (Leleges, Prolops)?

[Dorian]

Could it be from the Sea People or the groups mentioned by Dorian (Leleges, Prolops)?

These were for the neolithic peloponnese..don't know If there could be connection

[Calpurnius]

Could it be from the Sea People or the groups mentioned by Dorian (Leleges, Prolops)?
Hard to say tbh, they are so mysterious.

Though regarding the matter, I'm sure many of you are aware of those Mycenaean-like samples that have been reported from Empuries in Spain during Roman times(450-100BC). Empuries is supposedly a colony founded by Greeks in 575BC, Anatolian Greeks to be precise from Phocaea. So you have ~1300BC Mycenaeans and ~300BC individuals from a Greek colony in Spain showing incredible continuity. Either they got super lucky in that Iberian study and found some rare specimen that managed to keep a continuity all the way from the early Greeks that was mostly gone, or that, I think, puts some constraints on what could've possibly happened on mainland Greece within that period. More Steppe_MLBA type ancestry perhaps? Could some near eastern ancestry have arrived on the mainland without affecting west Anatolian Greeks? I think the first scenario isn't unlikely, but the second doesn't sound too good.

[vbnetkhio]

2 way oracles for ancient Greeks.

[1,] "GRC_Mycenaean" "0"
[2,] "38.9 % ARM_Lchashen_MBA + 61.1 % HUN_Koros_N" "0.0171"
[3,] "38.5 % ARM_Lchashen_MBA + 61.5 % SRB_N" "0.0173"
[4,] "37.2 % ARM_Lchashen_MBA + 62.8 % HUN_Vinca_MN" "0.0179"
[5,] "39.5 % ARM_Lchashen_MBA + 60.5 % AUT_LBK_N" "0.0186"
[6,] "39.3 % ARM_Lchashen_MBA + 60.7 % DEU_LBK_N" "0.0186"
[7,] "36.2 % ARM_Lchashen_MBA + 63.8 % BGR_N" "0.0189"
[8,] "38.9 % ARM_MBA + 61.1 % HUN_Koros_N" "0.0193"
[9,] "39 % ARM_LBA + 61 % HUN_Koros_N" "0.0194"
[10,] "39.5 % ARM_Lchashen_MBA + 60.5 % CZE_MN" "0.0194"


[1,] "ARM_Lchashen_MBA" "0"
[2,] "52.7 % IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C + 47.3 % Yamnaya_UKR_Ozera_o" "0.0212"
[3,] "39.1 % IRN_Hasanlu_IA + 60.9 % RUS_Alan_MA" "0.0218"
[4,] "61 % IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C + 39 % RUS_Kubano-Tersk_Late" "0.0225"
[5,] "74.1 % Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan + 25.9 % Saka_Kazakh_steppe_o2" "0.0227"
[6,] "67.6 % IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C + 32.4 % RUS_Kubano-Tersk" "0.0229"
[7,] "70.5 % IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C + 29.5 % Yamnaya_KAZ_Karagash" "0.0232"
[8,] "27.5 % KAZ_Kangju + 72.5 % Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan" "0.0232"
[9,] "70.5 % IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C + 29.5 % RUS_Potapovka_MLBA" "0.0233"
[10,] "81.2 % Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan + 18.8 % RUS_Mezhovskaya" "0.0234"


[1,] "GRC_Minoan_Lassithi" "0"
[2,] "87.5 % GRC_Peloponnese_N + 12.5 % Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps" "0.0144"
[3,] "88.7 % GRC_Peloponnese_N + 11.3 % RUS_North_Caucasus_MBA" "0.0145"
[4,] "88.2 % GRC_Peloponnese_N + 11.8 % RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya" "0.015"
[5,] "86.9 % GRC_Peloponnese_N + 13.1 % Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin" "0.0151"
[6,] "7.6 % GEO_CHG + 92.4 % GRC_Peloponnese_N" "0.0151"
[7,] "89.3 % GRC_Peloponnese_N + 10.7 % RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En" "0.0152"
[8,] "25.4 % Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA + 74.6 % GRC_Peloponnese_N" "0.0152"
[9,] "87.8 % GRC_Peloponnese_N + 12.2 % RUS_Maykop_Late" "0.0155"
[10,] "87.8 % GRC_Peloponnese_N + 12.2 % Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan" "0.0157"

it seems that Mycenaeans were of Balkan + Anatolian-Indoeuropean origin

Modern Cretans seem to complicated for the 2 way oracle, i'll have to model them

[vbnetkhio]

-SampleDetailsFitMapDEU MAGRC MycenaeanHUN Avar SzoladLevant ISR Ashkelon IA2
1Cypriot:Average1.4949 Open Map1030.830.8358.33
2Greek:Average1.3978 Open Map20.8344.1724.1710.83
3Greek_Crete:Average1.8048 Open Map22.536.673.3337.5
4ITA_Collegno_MA_o1:Average1.8208 Open Map14.1747.52.535.83
5Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:Average2.839 Open Map0.8398.3300.83

[vbnetkhio]

So in otherwords some kind of Lebanese admixture entered Greece during which timeframe exactly?

somewhere between Mycenaean and late Roman empire it seems

[Dianatomia]

Sure. WHen they say these people are/were ''hellenized natives'' they are implying it's a recent trend when much of Western Anatolia was already Greek-speaking by the 10th century before Common Era. Herodotus, Pre-Socratic Philosophers and many other famous ancient Greeks were actually from Western Anatolia.

Western Anatolia became Greek not much after Balkan region that is now modern Greece was hellenized by proto-Greeks.

Indeed, in fact the rabbit hole goes deeper. As many people inhabiting the Greek peninsula and the islands before it was Hellenized by proto-Greeks actually came from Anatolia in the first place. Conversely, some Anatolian tribes just before they were Hellenized were people once inhabiting the Greek/Balkan peninsula. All these peoples, including the ones in mainland Greece became gradually Hellenized. When parts of Western Anatolia were already Greek speaking, there were some areas in Greece proper which were still not Greek speaking. The Greek peninsula had yet to become fully Hellenized. As this continued, gradually a larger chunk of Anatolia was Hellenized.

So the proces of the Greek ethogenesis was quite long. There is little historical basis upon which we can proclaim who was a real Greek. Some people speak of Anatolia and Anatolians as if they were a separate yet uniform people. Simply because of coincidental events, this geographical plate has become essentially one modern country. In reality, Anatolia was simply Greek (among others) for thousands of years. So Turks are more Greek than Greece's Northern neighbors.

[Hapanuwa]

From another forum. A Turk from Afyon
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/Afyonkarahisar_in_Turkey.svg/640px-Afyonkarahisar_in_Turkey.svg.png

Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:

Kit DA2718541

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 27.75
2 West_Asian 21.88
3 West_Med 13.83
4 North_Atlantic 9.82
5 Baltic 9.07
6 East_Asian 5.45
7 Siberian 5.17
8 Red_Sea 3.72
9 South_Asian 1.8
10 Oceanian 1.45
11 Northeast_African 0.06

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Turkish 10.32
2 Central_Greek 13.35
3 East_Sicilian 14.07
4 South_Italian 14.77
5 Ashkenazi 15
6 Azeri 15.33
7 Italian_Abruzzo 15.6
8 Greek_Thessaly 16.76
9 Cyprian 16.76
10 Lebanese_Muslim 16.78
11 Sephardic_Jewish 17.05
12 West_Sicilian 17.61
13 Syrian 17.86
14 Algerian_Jewish 18.3
15 Italian_Jewish 18.39
16 Assyrian 18.89
17 Turkmen 18.99
18 Tunisian_Jewish 19.03
19 Georgian_Jewish 19.5
20 Libyan_Jewish 19.76

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 54.7% Italian_Jewish + 45.3% Nogay @ 4.62
2 57.2% Cyprian + 42.8% Nogay @ 4.78
3 54.9% Algerian_Jewish + 45.1% Nogay @ 4.91
4 53.8% Tunisian_Jewish + 46.2% Nogay @ 5.1
5 56.8% Sephardic_Jewish + 43.2% Nogay @ 5.14
6 59.9% Central_Greek + 40.1% Turkmen @ 5.38
7 56.5% Ashkenazi + 43.5% Turkmen @ 5.43
8 58.4% East_Sicilian + 41.6% Turkmen @ 5.52
9 62.7% Ashkenazi + 37.3% Balkar @ 5.7
10 60.5% Ashkenazi + 39.5% Nogay @ 5.71
11 52.9% Libyan_Jewish + 47.1% Nogay @ 5.74
12 64.9% Turkish + 35.1% Greek_Thessaly @ 5.89
13 57.1% South_Italian + 42.9% Turkmen @ 5.93
14 71.2% Turkish + 28.8% Bulgarian @ 5.97
15 73.5% Turkish + 26.5% Romanian @ 6.2
16 61.2% South_Italian + 38.8% Nogay @ 6.27
17 51% Algerian_Jewish + 49% Turkmen @ 6.29
18 76.7% Turkish + 23.3% Serbian @ 6.3
19 63.8% Ashkenazi + 36.2% Kabardin @ 6.33
20 65.9% Ashkenazi + 34.1% North_Ossetian @ 6.34


Dodecad K12b Oracle results:

Kit DA2718541

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 36.83
2 Atlantic_Med 14.64
3 North_European 13.72
4 Gedrosia 10.44
5 Southwest_Asian 10.33
6 East_Asian 4.63
7 Siberian 3.39
8 Southeast_Asian 3.13
9 Northwest_African 1.37
10 South_Asian 1.32
11 East_African 0.21

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Turkish (Dodecad) 10.53
2 Turks (Behar) 11.81
3 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 14.11
4 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 15.18
5 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 16.7
6 Greek (Dodecad) 16.75
7 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 16.97
8 Sicilian (Dodecad) 17.2
9 Lebanese (Behar) 17.95
10 Kumyks (Yunusbayev) 18.44
11 Cypriots (Behar) 18.45
12 Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) 18.78
13 Nogais (Yunusbayev) 19.21
14 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 19.7
15 Kurds (Yunusbayev) 21.01
16 Kurd (Dodecad) 21.17
17 Syrians (Behar) 21.19
18 Iranian (Dodecad) 21.22
19 Turkmens (Yunusbayev) 21.41
20 C_Italian (Dodecad) 21.45

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 53.4% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 46.6% Nogais (Yunusbayev) @ 5.05
2 61.3% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 38.7% Turkmens (Yunusbayev) @ 5.18
3 59.4% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 40.6% Turkmens (Yunusbayev) @ 5.47
4 50.7% Nogais (Yunusbayev) + 49.3% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 5.89
5 86.5% Turkish (Dodecad) + 13.5% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 6.16
6 81.3% Turks (Behar) + 18.7% French (HGDP) @ 6.16
7 86.4% Turkish (Dodecad) + 13.6% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 6.18
8 83.5% Turks (Behar) + 16.5% British_Isles (Dodecad) @ 6.2
9 82.7% Turks (Behar) + 17.3% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 6.26
10 83% Turks (Behar) + 17% Kent (1000Genomes) @ 6.28
11 84.5% Turks (Behar) + 15.5% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 6.28
12 83.1% Turks (Behar) + 16.9% English (Dodecad) @ 6.28
13 83.5% Turks (Behar) + 16.5% British (Dodecad) @ 6.29
14 83.1% Turks (Behar) + 16.9% CEU30 (1000Genomes) @ 6.29
15 81.6% Turks (Behar) + 18.4% German (Dodecad) @ 6.32
16 83.9% Turks (Behar) + 16.1% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 6.32
17 83.9% Turks (Behar) + 16.1% Irish (Dodecad) @ 6.33
18 83.4% Turks (Behar) + 16.6% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 6.33
19 86.1% Turkish (Dodecad) + 13.9% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 6.33
20 83.9% Turks (Behar) + 16.1% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 6.33



Hello, that's my kit number and results. Didn't expect it to casually pop out of nowhere while reading this thread but it is a funny suprise :D


Indeed, I am not a 'Balkan Turk'. Both of my parents are from Afyon and I have no known ancestry outside of Turkey. Both of my families also say that they are Yoruks.
I am not sure how to interpret my results but by reading the comments of you guys, I think that I can be regarded as Anatolian (Hittite/Phrygian) and Turkic.

Although my results are quite typical for my area, I don't look like a typical Anatolian Turk. I do look very European and I've never been guessed as a Turk (even by other Turks).

[Hapanuwa]

I was told by members of another forum that Eurogenes was not really suited for me because of the oracle.
So I wanted to ask you guys which calculators would suit me best.


Btw, this is my MyHeritage results:

Asia:
West Asian: 35,3%
Central Asian: 9,9%
East Asian- Eskimo/Inuit: 0,8%

Europe:
Italian: 23,5%
Greek and South Italian: 14,3%
North-West Europe: 7%

Middle East: 9,2%

[MagnusDark]

No it didn't...

Steppes is Satem
Greek is Centum.

Get it right.

Good God, you even don't understand where Indo-European languages(including your own) came from. Go back to school. You're giving people a brain aneurysm.

[Rgvgjhvv]

Hello, that's my kit number and results

You're one of us bro. Respect

[Mingle]

I am not sure how to interpret my results but by reading the comments of you guys, I think that I can be regarded as Anatolian (Hittite/Phrygian) and Turkic.

I don't think that the Anatolians had 0 Greek blood after that region was Greek for centuries. This can also be seen in your results when one looks at your proximity to some Southern European groups, results that would be very unlikely unless you have some Greek blood.

So I think you can get regarded as a mix of Turkic, Greek, and Paleo-Anatolian.

[Kivan]

Although my results are quite typical for my area, I don't look like a typical Anatolian Turk. I do look very European and I've never been guessed as a Turk (even by other Turks).

Post a classification thread.

[itilvolga]

Indeed, I am not a 'Balkan Turk'. Both of my parents are from Afyon and I have no known ancestry outside of Turkey. Both of my families also say that they are Yoruks.

I knew, but I wouldn’t guess you as a Yoruk according to your results. I thought you basically have villager background.

Welcome to forum, nice to see another Turk here.

[Hapanuwa]

I knew, but I wouldn’t guess you as a Yoruk according to your results. I thought you basically have villager background.

Welcome to forum, nice to see another Turk here.

Thank you for welcoming me.

My parents are actually from a village in Afyon near the Usak border. I'm really curious how you guess that by analyzing my results.


Which city are you from? And are your results similar to mine?

[Hapanuwa]

I don't think that the Anatolians had 0 Greek blood after that region was Greek for centuries. This can also be seen in your results when one looks at your proximity to some Southern European groups, results that would be very unlikely unless you have some Greek blood.

So I think you can get regarded as a mix of Turkic, Greek, and Paleo-Anatolian.

That sounds fine to me. I just don't really understand why I get Jewish pop up so frequently in the gedmatch calculators. In my one-to-many I have strong connections (20+) with mostly Western-Europeans and I found one Jewish match as well.

[Rgvgjhvv]

That sounds fine to me. I just don't really understand why I get Jewish pop up so frequently in the gedmatch calculators. In my one-to-many I have strong connections (20+) with mostly Western-Europeans and I found one Jewish match as well.

Plenty of Greeks and Italians (and similar ethnicities) get Jewish in GEDMatch calculators as well. It's just simply genetic relatedness, and not necessarily actual Jewish ancestry.

[Mingle]

That sounds fine to me. I just don't really understand why I get Jewish pop up so frequently in the gedmatch calculators. In my one-to-many I have strong connections (20+) with mostly Western-Europeans and I found one Jewish match as well.

Ashkenazi Jews have a lot of Greek/Mycenean ancestry (maybe even their majority ancestral population). They cluster with Greek Islanders and South Italians.

[itilvolga]

Thank you for welcoming me.

My parents are actually from a village in Afyon near the Usak border. I'm really curious how you guess that by analyzing my results.

Which city are you from? And are your results similar to mine?

You’re welcome.

I am not very good at interpreting gedmatch results but i have seen enough Aegean Turk results to compare yours with them.

Born and bred from Izmir but originally my mother is an Aegean Turk from Izmir (close to provincial border of Aydin) and my father is from Northeast of Turkey, Erzurum (close to provincial border of Kars). I haven’t got any test yet, i can’t say anything about it for now.

[Hapanuwa]

Plenty of Greeks and Italians (and similar ethnicities) get Jewish in GEDMatch calculators as well. It's just simply genetic relatedness, and not necessarily actual Jewish ancestry.

Can you explain to me why I don't get Greek matches in my one-to-many results? Wouldn't it be logical that I would've got Greek matches if I would be (Anatolian) Greek?

[valentinavalley2]

Turks. Many Turks are turkified Pontic Greeks or Capaddocian Greeks and in some parts of Turkey they also have mainland Greek and islander ancestry.

Balkanites are mostly Paleo-Balkan + Slavic.

Or maybe many Turks are Turkified Hittites...


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[Rgvgjhvv]

Can you explain to me why I don't get Greek matches in my one-to-many results? Wouldn't it be logical that I would've got Greek matches if I would be (Anatolian) Greek?

Good overall question.

[valentinavalley2]

The Greek in Turks might be Hittite, and actually not Greek... they don’t have enough studies on Albanians so they just lump Albanians with Greeks and Italians.


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[Dorian]

The Greek in Turks might be Hittite, and actually not Greek... they don’t have enough studies on Albanians so they just lump Albanians with Greeks and Italians.


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It's wrong indeed ,we must split the dacian-albo component from the nova Epirus one first.

[Hapanuwa]

Or maybe many Turks are Turkified Hittites...


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I always assumed this. That many Turks are the descendants of the Turkified Hittites + Turkic and other influences. I also thought that the Hittites were a people that was related to the Greeks due geography and language but that the Hittites were not ethnically Greek themselves (but rather Greekified later on, just like they were Turkified). After making contacts with the Greeks, they intermixed and became Hellenized, Greek speaking, Christian Anatolians.
The Anatolian language group was the first branch of the Indo-European tree that broke away, but still was related to the Hellenic branch.

This is what I always thought, but I am not sure if it's (entirely) true.

[Dorian]

I always assumed this. That many Turks are the descendants of the Turkified Hittites + Turkic and other influences. I also thought that the Hittites were a people that was related to the Greeks due geography and language but that the Hittites were not ethnically Greek themselves (but rather Greekified later on, just like they were Turkified). After making contacts with the Greeks, they intermixed and became Hellenized, Greek speaking, Christian Anatolians.
The Anatolian language group was the first branch of the Indo-European tree that broke away, but still was related to the Hellenic branch.

This is what I always thought, but I am not sure if it's (entirely) true.

+Hittites were hittitized( :bleedingeyes: )

[valentinavalley2]

I always assumed this. That many Turks are the descendants of the Turkified Hittites + Turkic and other influences. I also thought that the Hittites were a people that was related to the Greeks due geography and language but that the Hittites were not ethnically Greek themselves (but rather Greekified later on, just like they were Turkified). After making contacts with the Greeks, they intermixed and became Hellenized, Greek speaking, Christian Anatolians.
The Anatolian language group was the first branch of the Indo-European tree that broke away, but still was related to the Hellenic branch.

This is what I always thought, but I am not sure if it's (entirely) true.

Hittites were never Greeks to begin with, more likely Greeks committed genocide on them and hellenised a lot of them. It wouldn’t be surprising if Greeks helped Turks “force” Hittites to change their identity or cleanse them Hittites off the map, we know through ancient sources Greeks and Hittites were histories greatest enemies.

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[Dorian]

Hittites were never Greeks to begin with, more likely Greeks committed genocide on them and hellenised a lot of them.


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https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-06-2015/T_AB0o.gif

[Hapanuwa]

Post a classification thread.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?302759-Classify-me-(Turk-from-Afyon)

Would appreciate if you guys could classify me:)

[Leto]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?302759-Classify-me-(Turk-from-Afyon)

Would appreciate if you guys could classify me:)
You show some Eastern European/Slavic and even Latino (Brazilian type) features, strangely enough. Not stereotypically Turkish, let alone Middle Eastern in my book.
Thanks for sharing.

[Tauromachos]

Hittites were never Greeks to begin with, more likely Greeks committed genocide on them and hellenised a lot of them. It wouldn’t be surprising if Greeks helped Turks “force” Hittites to change their identity or cleanse them Hittites off the map, we know through ancient sources Greeks and Hittites were histories greatest enemies.

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Only thing sure is that you are Albanian
Say hello!
https://exit.al/en/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2019/02/WhatsApp-Image-2019-02-24-at-17.41.10.jpeg

[Hapanuwa]

You show some Eastern European/Slavic and even Latino (Brazilian type) features, strangely enough. Not stereotypically Turkish, let alone Middle Eastern in my book.
Thanks for sharing.

Interesting how many people say that I have Latino (and in particular Brazilian) features. I wonder where it comes from. Maybe because of my lips?

Also do you guys know how I can look Eastern European when I have no Eastern European ancestry and am typical for the average Western Anatolian Turk?

[Pater Patota]

Interesting how many people say that I have Latino (and in particular Brazilian) features. I wonder where it comes from. Maybe because of my lips?

Also do you guys know how I can look Eastern European when I have no Eastern European ancestry and am typical for the average Western Anatolian Turk?

You're still newbie about genetics, boy.Phenotype ≠ Genotype.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Hittites were never Greeks to begin with, more likely Greeks committed genocide on them and hellenised a lot of them.

The Greeks ma'am did not commit any genocide upon the Hittites. Alexander the Great conquered their homeland long after they were gone, but he didn't stay for long there. Then the Romans came and the area was partially Hellenized during the Roman era.


It wouldn’t be surprising if Greeks helped Turks “force” Hittites to change their identity or cleanse them Hittites off the map, we know through ancient sources Greeks and Hittites were histories greatest enemies.

The Hittites went out of business long before the formation of the Greek identity. The Achaians invaded Troy, but Troy was not a Hittite town in the first place. The Hittites collapsed from the Sea Peoples' invasion, and some of them were indeed proto-Hellenes, but those Sea Peoples didn't settle around Hatussa, they settled in the Levant and parts of Egypt, and of course Greece itself.


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[TheForeigner]

Wasn't all of Asia Minor, excepting Armenia, Greek speaking and Orthodox Chrisian, so basically Greek when the Turks came out of Central Asia? Turks must have more Greek blood than any non-Greek Balkaners.

[valentinavalley2]

The Greeks ma'am did not commit any genocide upon the Hittites. Alexander the Great conquered their homeland long after they were gone, but he didn't stay for long there. Then the Romans came and the area was partially Hellenized during the Roman era.The Hittites went out of business long before the formation of the Greek identity. The Achaians invaded Troy, but Troy was not a Hittite town in the first place. The Hittites collapsed from the Sea Peoples' invasion, and some of them were indeed proto-Hellenes, but those Sea Peoples didn't settle around Hatussa, they settled in the Levant and parts of Egypt, and of course Greece itself.

Lol Greeks are in denial...


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[ciftci]

People overestimate Anatolian or Greek admixture on Turks. Oghuz Turks mixed with Persians mainly before migrating Anatolia. Turkey Turks have close autosomal DNA results to Azeris which means, even if we have Caucasoid admixture, it's before migration to Anatolia.

[Dorian]

Wasn't all of Asia Minor, excepting Armenia, Greek speaking and Orthodox Chrisian, so basically Greek when the Turks came out of Central Asia? Turks must have more Greek blood than any non-Greek Balkaners.

The thing is that it was "hellenized" not hellenic so it can be rewashed easier :p

[Dorian]

People overestimate Anatolian or Greek admixture on Turks. Oghuz Turks mixed with Persians mainly before migrating Anatolia. Turkey Turks have close autosomal DNA results to Azeris which means, even if we have Caucasoid admixture, it's before migration to Anatolia.

Interesting...

[Kivan]

People overestimate Anatolian or Greek admixture on Turks. Oghuz Turks mixed with Persians mainly before migrating Anatolia. Turkey Turks have close autosomal DNA results to Azeris which means, even if we have Caucasoid admixture, it's before migration to Anatolia.

No, it's absolutely not true. Look at the result of the user Hapanuwa:



Kit DA2718541

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 36.83
2 Atlantic_Med 14.64
3 North_European 13.72
4 Gedrosia 10.44
5 Southwest_Asian 10.33
6 East_Asian 4.63
7 Siberian 3.39
8 Southeast_Asian 3.13
9 Northwest_African 1.37
10 South_Asian 1.32
11 East_African 0.21

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Turkish (Dodecad) 10.53
2 Turks (Behar) 11.81
3 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 14.11
4 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 15.18
5 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 16.7
6 Greek (Dodecad) 16.75
7 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 16.97
8 Sicilian (Dodecad) 17.2
9 Lebanese (Behar) 17.95
10 Kumyks (Yunusbayev) 18.44
11 Cypriots (Behar) 18.45
12 Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) 18.78
13 Nogais (Yunusbayev) 19.21
14 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 19.7
15 Kurds (Yunusbayev) 21.01
16 Kurd (Dodecad) 21.17
17 Syrians (Behar) 21.19
18 Iranian (Dodecad) 21.22
19 Turkmens (Yunusbayev) 21.41
20 C_Italian (Dodecad) 21.45

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 53.4% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 46.6% Nogais (Yunusbayev) @ 5.05
2 61.3% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 38.7% Turkmens (Yunusbayev) @ 5.18
3 59.4% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 40.6% Turkmens (Yunusbayev) @ 5.47
4 50.7% Nogais (Yunusbayev) + 49.3% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 5.89
5 86.5% Turkish (Dodecad) + 13.5% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 6.16
6 81.3% Turks (Behar) + 18.7% French (HGDP) @ 6.16
7 86.4% Turkish (Dodecad) + 13.6% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 6.18
8 83.5% Turks (Behar) + 16.5% British_Isles (Dodecad) @ 6.2
9 82.7% Turks (Behar) + 17.3% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 6.26
10 83% Turks (Behar) + 17% Kent (1000Genomes) @ 6.28
11 84.5% Turks (Behar) + 15.5% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 6.28
12 83.1% Turks (Behar) + 16.9% English (Dodecad) @ 6.28
13 83.5% Turks (Behar) + 16.5% British (Dodecad) @ 6.29
14 83.1% Turks (Behar) + 16.9% CEU30 (1000Genomes) @ 6.29
15 81.6% Turks (Behar) + 18.4% German (Dodecad) @ 6.32
16 83.9% Turks (Behar) + 16.1% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 6.32
17 83.9% Turks (Behar) + 16.1% Irish (Dodecad) @ 6.33
18 83.4% Turks (Behar) + 16.6% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 6.33
19 86.1% Turkish (Dodecad) + 13.9% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 6.33
20 83.9% Turks (Behar) + 16.1% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 6.33

[ciftci]

Interesting...

It's true. Although our left wing people would love to say there's no Turkish nation, we are all assimilated Anatolians etc, I saw similarities between average Turkish and Azeri autosomal DNA tests. If we have genetic closeness, it's for people of Iran, Transoxania, Caucasus, way before them defeated and assimilated Scythians from Southern Central Asia. Oghuzs have been the most crowded and Caucasoid Turkic branch of people generally.

[Achaean]

If by pure greek we mean islanders like cretans and not a greek from Thessaloniki(which are not that far from balkanites) than the answer is obviously western Turkey.

[TheForeigner]

The thing is that it was "hellenized" not hellenic so it can be rewashed easier :p

Yeah hellenized Anatolians in the interior, but true Greek blood on the coasts too and many of these too were Islamized and Turkicized. I think for sure Turks have a good amount of real Greek blood too and more than SE Euros north of Greece.

[ciftci]

No, it's absolutely not true. Look at the result of the user Hapanuwa:

Only one person can decide nothing and he doesn't look average ethnic Turk. Phenotype is a result of genotype in some extent.

[TheForeigner]

Only one person can decide nothing and he doesn't look average ethnic Turk. Phenotype is a result of genotype in some extent.

Are you serious buddy? So what happened with all those Anatolian Byzantines?

[ciftci]

Are you serious buddy? So what happened with all those Anatolian Byzantines?

Some mixture happened in the Western Turkey, but I guess many of them stayed purely Greek by Orthodox Church. And you know they had to leave Anatolia after nationalist movements.

[TheForeigner]

Some mixture happened in the Western Turkey, but I guess many of them stayed purely Greek by Orthodox Church. And you know they had to leave Anatolia after nationalist movements.

But there was a large native Byzantine Anatolian population in the interior that mostly disappeared. What happened to them? I think it's obvious they were assimilated by Turks.

[Dorian]

Yeah hellenized Anatolians in the interior, but true Greek blood on the coasts too and many of these too were Islamized and Turkicized. I think for sure Turks have a good amount of real Greek blood too and more than SE Euros north of Greece.

I don't know that, If you turkify a Pontian wouldn't he be Hittite?that's what I mean ,it can be rewashed easier ,If a Cretan or Peloponnesian is turkified there's going to be more stigma.

[ciftci]

But there was a large native Byzantine Anatolian population in the interior that mostly disappeared. What happened to them? I think it's obvious they were assimilated by Turks.

I think it depends on region. I'm from Central Anatolia, we didn't have Greeks here I read. We had Galatians, Hittites under Greek identity, Cappadocians etc. And their numbers were not so high.

[Marmara]

People overestimate Anatolian or Greek admixture on Turks. Oghuz Turks mixed with Persians mainly before migrating Anatolia. Turkey Turks have close autosomal DNA results to Azeris which means, even if we have Caucasoid admixture, it's before migration to Anatolia.

Not with Persians, but with Central Asian Iranic/Scythian tribes.

[TheForeigner]

I think it depends on region. I'm from Central Anatolia, we didn't have Greeks here I read. We had Galatians, Hittites under Greek identity, Cappadocians etc. And their numbers were not so high.

I doubt this population was so small as you say. It's generally agreed that modern Turkish people are majority Anatolian in blood. How much and how fast could they have assimilated Persians in Iran before going to Asia Minor?

[Marmara]

I don't know that, If you turkify a Pontian wouldn't he be Hittite?that's what I mean ,it can be rewashed easier ,If a Cretan or Peloponnesian is turkified there's going to be more stigma.

Hittites didn't control Pontus region.

Cretan muslims are largely Turkified Greeks already, in Turkey people don't know it and assume Cretan muslims are ethnic Turks like in West Thrace. Cretans don't try to correct it. They also don't try to hold on to their Greek identity and prefer to blend in instead.

[ciftci]

I doubt this population was so small as you say. It's generally agreed that modern Turkish people are majority Anatolian in blood. How much and how fast could they have assimilated Persians in Iran before going to Asia Minor?

Average Turk is quite brachycephalic, Greeks are closer to dolicephialism as proper meds.

[Dorian]

Hittites didn't control Pontus region.

Cretan muslims are largely Turkified Greeks already, in Turkey people don't know it and assume Cretan muslims are ethnic Turks like in West Thrace. Cretans don't try to correct it. They also don't try to hold on to their Greek identity and prefer to blend in instead.

Ofc my bad ,just wanted to make the connection with the rest native anatolian that it's broadly called hittite usually.
As for the Cretans ,seems like these -ized terms have no effect in the real word.

[TheForeigner]

Average Turk is quite brachycephalic, Greeks are closer to dolicephialism as proper meds.

Maybe Anatolians were brachycephalic too. I don't know, but cranial shape also changed in some populations over time. And those Greek speaking Anatolians were Greeks once!

[Dorian]

Maybe Anatolians were brachycephalic too. I don't know, but cranial shape also changed in some populations over time. And those Greek speaking Anatolians were Greeks once!

Mind you the western part besides the historical Greek colonization probably had "ties" already with prehistoric Greece but things are still blurry in prehistoric things.Here's a try though http://www.palaeolexicon.com/Carian .
https://i.imgur.com/ZwVc3Yw.jpg

[TheForeigner]

Turks also seem lighter skinned on average than Iranians and more like Greeks and South Europeans.

[catgeorge]

If your K15 distances <10 and have Greek Thessaly and Central Greek then share ancestry with mainland Greeks...If your K15 distances <10 and have Central Greek and Sicily then share ancestry with Greek Islanders..

Turks dont have such ancestry and everything else with distance above 10 is noise.

[ciftci]

Turks also seem lighter skinned on average than Iranians and more like Greeks and South Europeans.

It may be due to mixing with Scythians in Central Asia. They were original Iranics without Elamite admixture.

[Thracian]

If your K15 distances <10 and have Greek Thessaly and Central Greek then share ancestry with mainland Greeks...If your K15 distances <10 and have Central Greek and Sicily then share ancestry with Greek Islanders..

Turks dont have such ancestry and everything else with distance above 10 is noise.

This is wrong. I have them with less than 10 distance for almost all calculators.

[catgeorge]

This is wrong. I have them with less than 10 distance for almost all calculators.

Then congrats you share ancestry with mainland Greeks.... blood is thicker than water. Live with it.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Lol Greeks are in denial...


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If you have any doubts, read the wikipedia page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites


The Hittites (/ˈhɪtaɪts/ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/English)) were an Anatolian people (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_peoples) who played an important role in establishing an empire centered on Hattusa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hattusa) in north-central Anatolia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolia) around 1600 BC. This empire reached its height during the mid-14th century BC under Suppiluliuma I (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppiluliuma_I), when it encompassed an area that included most of Anatolia as well as parts of the northern Levant (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levant) and Upper Mesopotamia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Mesopotamia).
Between the 15th and 13th centuries BC, the Empire of Hattusa, conventionally called the Hittite Empire, came into conflict with the Egyptian Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_Empire), Middle Assyrian Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Assyrian_Empire) and the empire of the Mitanni (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitanni) for control of the Near East (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_East). The Assyrians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyria) eventually emerged as the dominant power and annexed much of the Hittite empire, while the remainder was sacked by Phrygian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygia) newcomers to the region. After c. 1180 BC, during the Bronze Age collapse (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_collapse), the Hittites splintered into several independent "Neo-Hittite (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Hittite)" city-states, some of which survived until the 8th century BC before succumbing to the Neo-Assyrian Empire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Assyrian_Empire).



No Greeks are mentioned at all - not even the Sea Peoples who destroyed the last unitary Hittite state and then moved elsewhere. The Hittites were ultimately defeated and absorbed by the Assyrians and the Neo-Assyrians, not the Greeks, therefore, if you can accuse someone of genocide, those would be the Assyrians, and given their track record from every single available source, they were indeed the masters of genocide:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpKxRJDmnQI

So fuck off bitch, those who genocided the area were the Assyrians and the Neo-Assyrians.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Not with Persians, but with Central Asian Iranic/Scythian tribes.

You barely have any Central Asian admixture. You score something between 9% and 13%.

[Petros Houhoulis]

People overestimate Anatolian or Greek admixture on Turks. Oghuz Turks mixed with Persians mainly before migrating Anatolia. Turkey Turks have close autosomal DNA results to Azeris which means, even if we have Caucasoid admixture, it's before migration to Anatolia.

You are assuming somehow that the Azeris are pure descendants of Central Asians and not majority locals or even migrants from areas closer to the Mediterranean. You are dead wrong.

[Petros Houhoulis]

It's true. Although our left wing people would love to say there's no Turkish nation, we are all assimilated Anatolians etc, I saw similarities between average Turkish and Azeri autosomal DNA tests.

But neither you nor the Azeris have any similarities with the Central Asians where the Turks came from.


If we have genetic closeness, it's for people of Iran, Transoxania, Caucasus, way before them defeated and assimilated Scythians from Southern Central Asia. Oghuzs have been the most crowded and Caucasoid Turkic branch of people generally.

If you have genetic closeness, it is with other Mediterranean people, and some 9%-13% with Central Asians.

[ciftci]

But neither you nor the Azeris have any similarities with the Central Asians where the Turks came from.

If you have genetic closeness, it is with other Mediterranean people, and some 9%-13% with Central Asians.

Azeris and us can have Iranic or native Caucasian admixture as non-Turkic. Still not Greek. Western Turks may have Greek admixture, but Central and Eastern Anatolia have very unlikely. Eastern Anatolia has high amount of armenoids, which makes Western Turks more appealing for Turkish people.

[Petros Houhoulis]

It may be due to mixing with Scythians in Central Asia. They were original Iranics without Elamite admixture.

The Iranics were IndoEuropean, the Turks are Altaic. The real Turks could have come from the Xiongnu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiongnu), but they weren't Iranics at all.

[RenaRyuguu]

Northern

[Petros Houhoulis]

Azeris and us can have Iranic or native Caucasian admixture as non-Turkic. Still not Greek.

I didn't qualify you as Greeks. I qualified you as non-Turks.


Western Turks may have Greek admixture, but Central and Eastern Anatolia have very unlikely.

That is fairly accurate, Greeks didn't find many colonies away from the sea. Most of them were at most 30 miles from any coast in the Mediterranean. The bulk of the Anatolian population was Hellenized during the Roman era.


Eastern Anatolia has high amount of armenoids, which makes Western Turks more appealing for Turkish people.

Even the most "Turkic" region in Turkey doesn't have more than 20% Central Asian ancestry. I've seen the map boy! Genetically you are Hattians, Hittites, Lydians, Carians, Assyrians, Phrygians, and what not, but Turks? Seriously???

[Petros Houhoulis]

This is wrong. I have them with less than 10 distance for almost all calculators.

Aaah! Our Scythian boy! And I was wandering what had happened to all those Scythian slaves who were imported to Greece as flutists, harpists and so on! May I start calling you "Hot flanks"? You know, like those names for Amazons found in Ancient Greek vases? Say hello to your grandma, Hot flanks!

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/NAMA_3_Muses.jpg/280px-NAMA_3_Muses.jpg

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/9/140923-amazon-greek-vase-translations-science/


Amazon Warriors' Names Revealed Amid "Gibberish" on Ancient Greek Vases

Translations reveal Amazons' names such as Don't Fail and Hot Flanks hidden in ancient "nonsense" inscriptions.

By Dan Vergano, National Geographic (http://news.nationalgeographic.com)


PUBLISHED <time itemprop="datePublished" datetime="2014-09-22T20:04:00-0400">September 22, 2014</time>

Ancient Greek vases have revealed the hidden names of Amazons, mythology's warrior women, in a report deciphering ancient languages unspoken for millennia.

In the forthcoming study of pottery dating from 550 B.C. to 450 B.C., study lead author Adrienne Mayor (http://web.stanford.edu/dept/HPS/Mayor.html) and J. Paul Getty Museum assistant curator David Saunders (http://www.linkedin.com/pub/david-saunders/36/351/328) translated Greek inscriptions into their phonetic sounds for 12 ancient vases from Athens. The inscriptions appear next to scenes of Amazons fighting, hunting, or shooting arrows.

They next submitted just the phonetic transcriptions without explanation to linguist John Colarusso (http://johncolarusso.net/) of Canada's McMaster University in Hamilton, who is an expert on rare languages of the Caucasus. He translated the inscriptions into names—such as Princess, Don't Fail, and Hot Flanks—without knowing the details of the pictures of Amazons.

The report in the journal Hesperia (http://www.ascsa.edu.gr/index.php/publications/hesperia) gives linguists unparalleled insight into languages last spoken more than 2,500 years ago around the Black Sea. This area was the realm of Scythian nomads (http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0306/feature7/), who fought and traded with the Greeks.

Essentially, the ancient Greeks seem to have been trying to re-create the sounds of Scythian names and words on the Amazon vases by writing them out phonetically, the study authors suggest. In doing so, the Greeks may have preserved the roots of ancient languages, showing scholars how these people sounded on the steppes long ago.

"I am impressed, and I find the conclusions quite plausible," says archaeologist Ann Steiner (http://www.fandm.edu/ann-steiner), an expert on ancient Greek vases at Franklin and Marshall College in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, by email. The results give weight to the suggestion that Athenians first learned of Amazon legends and names from foreigners in their midst, she says.

...

[ciftci]

The Iranics were IndoEuropean, the Turks are Altaic. The real Turks could have come from the Xiongnu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiongnu), but they weren't Iranics at all.

Scythians and some other nomadic immigrants were defeated in Central Asia by the Huns. They may assimilate those people. This can explain very high amounts of R1a's in Central Asian Turkics. I know original Turks were Mongolid Altaic Xiongnu, but they mixed Iranic nomads in Central Asia. If Mongol y DNAs and Eurasian look had been abundant among Turks, this could mean mass rape of defeated Scythians. But, this is not the case. Scythian y-dna is observable especially in Altai Turks. Old Turkics defeated another nomadic tribe, made it vassal and assimilated them gradually. It's written same in Oghuz Khan Legend. He travels west, meet some tribes resisting, he defeat them and make vassals and assimilate instead of mass rape or genocide.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Scythians and some other nomadic immigrants were defeated in Central Asia by the Huns. They may assimilate those people. This can explain very high amounts of R1a's in Central Asian Turkics.

Exactly. The original Altaic speakers were C3 haplotype and essentially all speakers of Agglutinative languages were C haplotype. You can still see it on a map:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/World_Map_of_Y-DNA_Haplogroups.png


I know original Turks were Mongolid Altaic Xiongnu, but they mixed Iranic nomads in Central Asia.

That's why you are not even remotely Turks, with mixed up with everybody in your path from the North of China all the way to Turkey, so those leftists are correct in the end of the day. Culturally and ethnically and even nationally youmight declare whatever, but genetics is science, not perceptions of identity.


If Mongol y DNAs and Eurasian look had been abundant among Turks, this could mean mass rape of defeated Scythians.

This happened too, but populations are sustained from food production, not conquest. Even if the Mongols massacred and raped all Scythians, if the Scythians had agriculture and the Mongols didn't, the Mongols could not possibly reach the Scythian numbers, and the Scythian farmers who survived would simply multiply faster based upon their food producing ability. They might have changed language in the process, but not so much in genetic sense.


But, this is not the case. Scythian y-dna is observable especially in Altai Turks. Old Turkics defeated another nomadic tribe, made it vassal and assimilated them gradually. It's written same in Oghuz Khan Legend. He travels west, meet some tribes resisting, he defeat them and make vassals and assimilate instead of mass rape or genocide.

I'm not sure those folks would bother to record rape and genocide, but there are ways to find out, you know... History is getting supplanted by other sciences by the day.

[MustafaTekin]

Albanians and greeks have almost identical dna.. this is not surprising because athens had an albanian majority in ottoman times.. one may assume that greeks aren't real greeks but just albanians with different language/religion..

greek-cypriots on the other hand are probably genuine greeks. without slavic and albanian input.

[Dorian]

Albanians and greeks have almost identical dna.. this is not surprising because athens had an albanian majority in ottoman times.. one may assume that greeks aren't real greeks but just albanians with different language/religion..

greek-cypriots on the other hand are probably genuine greeks. without slavic and albanian input.

http://cdn7.dissolve.com/p/D1013_235_028/D1013_235_028_0004_600.jpg

[Petros Houhoulis]

Albanians and greeks have almost identical dna.. this is not surprising because athens had an albanian majority in ottoman times..

Athens was a small village in Ottoman times and no, it didn't have an Albanian majority, but the majority of the surrounding villages were indeed Arvanite. The only problem is that the Arvanites themselves are mostly Albanian speakers, while genetically they are indigenous Epirotes rather than Albanians - those Albanians who came to Albania only a thousand years ago.

Meanwhile most of Albania, or as it was known then, a portion of Illyria, was ethnically cleansed of its' Illyrian population during the Illyrian wars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_Wars). Those depopulated areas were repopulated by neighboring Greek tribes and later the Romans gave the name "Epirus Nova" to that majority Greek region by that time:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus#Late_Antiquity

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d8/Ancient_Epirus_%26_Modern_Borders_%28Colored%29.sv g/800px-Ancient_Epirus_%26_Modern_Borders_%28Colored%29.sv g.png


Probably during the provincial reorganization by Diocletian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diocletian) (r. 284–305), the western portion of the province of Macedonia along the Adriatic coast was split off into the province of New Epirus (Latin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language): Epirus Nova). Although this territory was not traditionally part of Epirus proper as defined by the ancient geographers, and was historically inhabited predominantly by Illyrian tribes, the name reflects the fact that under Roman rule, the area had been subject to increasing Hellenization and settlement by Epirote tribes from the south.[27] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus#cite_note-FOOTNOTESoustalKoder198147-27)

As a result, the majority of modern day Albania was Greek populated since 2.000 years ago and the Albanian tribes who conquered it 1.000 years ago didn't change much of the genetics of the region, since they were pastoralists while the Epirotans were agriculturalists. As a result the Arvanites who arrived in Greece around 500 years later were mostly genetically Greek Albanian speakers.


one may assume that greeks aren't real greeks but just albanians with different language/religion..

No, we can be certain that you are a canine moron with no idea of history or genetics whatsoever, even worse, you are a camel urine drinker, a species who shouldn't even be allowed to have an opinion:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7DeOdovU94

Now, go to pay a visit to your camel for your drink:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zOUE4QT1c0


greek-cypriots on the other hand are probably genuine greeks. without slavic and albanian input.
https://i.imgflip.com/e664y.jpg

[ciftci]

Exactly. The original Altaic speakers were C3 haplotype and essentially all speakers of Agglutinative languages were C haplotype. You can still see it on a map:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/World_Map_of_Y-DNA_Haplogroups.png That's why you are not even remotely Turks, with mixed up with everybody in your path from the North of China all the way to Turkey, so those leftists are correct in the end of the day. Culturally and ethnically and even nationally youmight declare whatever, but genetics is science, not perceptions of identity.This happened too, but populations are sustained from food production, not conquest. Even if the Mongols massacred and raped all Scythians, if the Scythians had agriculture and the Mongols didn't, the Mongols could not possibly reach the Scythian numbers, and the Scythian farmers who survived would simply multiply faster based upon their food producing ability. They might have changed language in the process, but not so much in genetic sense.

I'm not sure those folks would bother to record rape and genocide, but there are ways to find out, you know... History is getting supplanted by other sciences by the day.

I accept we are not Asiatic mainly. But, one nation needs an identity to stay alive. If I accept I may have Armenian or Cappadocian origins as a Southeastern Central Anatolian and lose my Turkish identity, if we all have this. This means destruction for Anatolia.

[Dorian]

But, one nation needs an identity to stay alive


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_izvAbhExY

https://media.giphy.com/media/Ib0ya9uKHQy7Du095j/giphy.gif

[ciftci]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_izvAbhExY

https://media.giphy.com/media/Ib0ya9uKHQy7Du095j/giphy.gif

Lol, positive vibes.

[Leto]

I accept we are not Asiatic mainly. But, one nation needs an identity to stay alive. If I accept I may have Armenian or Cappadocian origins as a Southeastern Central Anatolian and lose my Turkish identity, if we all have this. This means destruction for Anatolia.
Lol. Being Turkic doesn't require being fully or even predominantly Mongoloid. It's a linguistic and cultural identity first and foremost.

[Petros Houhoulis]

I accept we are not Asiatic mainly. But, one nation needs an identity to stay alive.

This is an interesting perspective. Yes indeed, one nation needs to identify to stay alive, but being alive is not necessarily the best fate one can have. Take for example a group of people who claim to descend from wolves:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asena


Asena is the name of a she wolf[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asena#cite_note-1)[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asena#cite_note-2)[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asena#cite_note-3) associated with the Oghuz Turkic foundation myth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_myth).[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asena#cite_note-4)[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asena#cite_note-5)

LegendThe legend of Asena tells of a young boy who survived a battle; a female wolf finds the injured child and nurses him back to health. The she-wolf, impregnated by the boy, escapes her enemies by crossing the Western Sea to a cave near the Qocho (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qocho) mountains and a city of the Tocharians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tocharians), giving birth to ten half-wolf, half-human boys. Of these, Ashina becomes their leader and establishes the Ashina clan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashina_tribe), which ruled over the Göktürk and other Turkic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_peoples) nomadic empires (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomadic_empire).[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asena#cite_note-6)[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asena#cite_note-7)
These first Turks migrated to the Altai region, where they were known as expert blacksmiths (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacksmith), akin to the Scythians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians).[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asena#cite_note-8)
Modern eraWith the rise of Turkish (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_nationalism) ethnic nationalism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_nationalism) in the 1930s, the veneration of figures of Turkic Mythology, such as Bozkurt (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Bozkurt_(mythology)&action=edit&redlink=1) [tr (https://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bozkurt_(mitoloji))], Asena and Ergenekon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergenekon) was resurgent.[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asena#cite_note-Arman-9) The symbol of Asena is embossed on the stage of the personal theater of the first President of Turkey, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Kemal_Atat%C3%BCrk), at his residence in Ankara;[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asena#cite_note-Arman-9) the Atatürk referenced the motif in speech, such as that of 13 February 1931,Türk Ocağı (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=T%C3%BCrk_Oca%C4%9F%C4%B1&action=edit&redlink=1), in Malatya (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malatya).'[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asena#cite_note-10)[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asena#cite_note-11)



So the canines' manifest destiny is to try their best to act as beasts, in order to survive, or to be more accurate, the moment you admit that what you own is not yours but you have stolen it, you are constantly feeling insecure that some day justice shall be served and you shall lose it again, and the way to prevent that from happening you have to keep threatening all of the rightful owners around you and keep grabbing more and more from them, as a wolf would do, causing instability in the entire region... Which shall inevitably result to all of your neighbors joining forces in order to wipe you out from the face of the earth citing your countless transgressions, and genocides.

You see, you cannot quite sleep with peace at night as long as you continue to identify with a foreign invader irrespectively of your genetic makeup, even if the idea that "Greece is going to take Constantinople back" is ridiculous on the basis that your modern shithole in the Bosporus has more people than all of Greece combined, and besides, who would want to relocate in a shithole among third world low IQ morons anyway???


If I accept I may have Armenian or Cappadocian origins as a Southeastern Central Anatolian and lose my Turkish identity, if we all have this. This means destruction for Anatolia.

"Anatolia", "Asia Minor" "Near East" or however else you might want to call it is not going to be destroyed by human actions but by the worlds' tectonic plates moving around.

The identity of the people living there is getting muddled by the day because of the influx of the Kurds and Arabs, and you brought the Arabs in order to counterweight the demographic rise of the Kurds who are about to become a majority in Turkey:

https://www.ibtimes.com/kurdish-majority-turkey-within-one-generation-705466

https://www.ibtimes.com/turkey-high-kurdish-birth-rate-raises-questions-about-future-705488

So, if the Kurds shall overtake you within this century the latest - and in just one generation according to the Sultan himself - how is your preservation of your "Turkish identity" going to "save Anatolia from destruction" Your nuances still do not add up, and even if the Sultan manages to send the Arabs back to Syria (which I doubt he can accomplish) that shall not affect the Kurds. On the contrary, your constant vilification of the Kurds and your constant persecution them as far away as Syria is only strengthening their resolve to maintain their identity, and inevitably to shove it to you when time comes.

Your best bet is to swap with Turkish identity with an inclusive Anatolian identity, but what is an Anatolian identity anyway? This thing does not exist, and most probably the very attempt to switch to an identity who everybody shall define the way he wants might end up with contrasting and eventually conflicting identities which shall only accelerate the "destruction of Anatolia".

This is an equation for really smart people, and most of you ain't even remotely intelligent, so I predict an implosion of the brewing identity crisis which is already beleaguering Anatolia nowadays.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Lol. Being Turkic doesn't require being fully or even predominantly Mongoloid. It's a linguistic and cultural identity first and foremost.

There's a little glitch in the matrix, an identity which does not claim indigenous status or even better legacy compared to those of its' predecessors upon the same territory always has the potential to unravel.

[Leto]

There's a little glitch in the matrix, an identity which does not claim indigenous status or even better legacy compared to those of its' predecessors upon the same territory always has the potential to unravel.
Well, some believe (not me) the modern Greeks are not the real ones (i.e. have nothing to do with Ancient Greece). I've met that kind of belief in certain white nationalist circles.

[ciftci]

This is an interesting perspective. Yes indeed, one nation needs to identify to stay alive, but being alive is not necessarily the best fate one can have. Take for example a group of people who claim to descend from wolves:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asena



So the canines' manifest destiny is to try their best to act as beasts, in order to survive, or to be more accurate, the moment you admit that what you own is not yours but you have stolen it, you are constantly feeling insecure that some day justice shall be served and you shall lose it again, and the way to prevent that from happening you have to keep threatening all of the rightful owners around you and keep grabbing more and more from them, as a wolf would do, causing instability in the entire region... Which shall inevitably result to all of your neighbors joining forces in order to wipe you out from the face of the earth citing your countless transgressions, and genocides.

You see, you cannot quite sleep with peace at night as long as you continue to identify with a foreign invader irrespectively of your genetic makeup, even if the idea that "Greece is going to take Constantinople back" is ridiculous on the basis that your modern shithole in the Bosporus has more people than all of Greece combined, and besides, who would want to relocate in a shithole among third world low IQ morons anyway???

"Anatolia", "Asia Minor" "Near East" or however else you might want to call it is not going to be destroyed by human actions but by the worlds' tectonic plates moving around.

The identity of the people living there is getting muddled by the day because of the influx of the Kurds and Arabs, and you brought the Arabs in order to counterweight the demographic rise of the Kurds who are about to become a majority in Turkey:

https://www.ibtimes.com/kurdish-majority-turkey-within-one-generation-705466

https://www.ibtimes.com/turkey-high-kurdish-birth-rate-raises-questions-about-future-705488

So, if the Kurds shall overtake you within this century the latest - and in just one generation according to the Sultan himself - how is your preservation of your "Turkish identity" going to "save Anatolia from destruction" Your nuances still do not add up, and even if the Sultan manages to send the Arabs back to Syria (which I doubt he can accomplish) that shall not affect the Kurds. On the contrary, your constant vilification of the Kurds and your constant persecution them as far away as Syria is only strengthening their resolve to maintain their identity, and inevitably to shove it to you when time comes.

Your best bet is to swap with Turkish identity with an inclusive Anatolian identity, but what is an Anatolian identity anyway? This thing does not exist, and most probably the very attempt to switch to an identity who everybody shall define the way he wants might end up with contrasting and eventually conflicting identities which shall only accelerate the "destruction of Anatolia".

This is an equation for really smart people, and most of you ain't even remotely intelligent, so I predict an implosion of the brewing identity crisis which is already beleaguering Anatolia nowadays.

I also want some kind of take over here. These times are times of chaos. From chaos, order is given to birth. We need new values or we will continue rotting and pass away as a nation. Average Turkish nationalists here can't see demographically, we are destined to die out here. They like being chauvinists praising history and meaningless heroism. But, the best thing a nationalist can do is educating himself, doing his job as his best and thinking about his nation's future by graphs. Everything is about graphs, numbers, extrapolations. This is the same for Europeans too.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Well, some believe (not me) the modern Greeks are not the real ones (i.e. have nothing to do with Ancient Greece). I've met that kind of belief in certain white nationalist circles.

Well, those folks believe that all Greeks used to be white like storks. Well, it ain't so, although the proto-Hellenes were quite close. Their metal gymnastics fail to account for the fact that the names and the culture of the Greeks were created within Greece and not in some godforsaken region of Ukraine where the original Greek speakers came from. Furthermore, the customs and culture and what not of the first people who called themselves "Hellenes" were the customs and culture of a heavily mixed people who were predominantly indigenous for all intents and purposes, while only the language itself was mainly a foreign import.

Those white nationalists still believe that all civilization was purely white, but Egypt which has twice everybody elses' history was brown, not snow white, even though the Egyptians are classified as white down to this day by most reasonable people - albeit not the snow white nationalists themselves...

[Leto]

I also want some kind of take over here. These times are times of chaos. From chaos, order is given to birth. We need new values or we will continue rotting and pass away as a nation. Average Turkish nationalists here can't see demographically, we are destined to die out here. They like being chauvinists praising history and meaningless heroism. But, the best thing a nationalist can do is educating himself, doing his job as his best and thinking about his nation's future by graphs. Everything is about graphs, numbers, extrapolations. This is the same for Europeans too.
Both Kurds and Turks share the same religion (Sunni Islam) and belong to the same broad West Asian genetic cluster. Just force them to speak Turkish and they'll be fine. Outsiders don't see the difference. The birth rate will subside and stabilize with time. The situation is not really comparable with that in Europe because the migrants are racially and culturally non-European.

[Leto]

Well, those folks believe that all Greeks used to be white like storks. Well, it ain't so, although the proto-Hellenes were quite close. Their metal gymnastics fail to account for the fact that the names and the culture of the Greeks were created within Greece and not in some godforsaken region of Ukraine where the original Greek speakers came from. Furthermore, the customs and culture and what not of the first people who called themselves "Hellenes" were the customs and culture of a heavily mixed people who were predominantly indigenous for all intents and purposes, while only the language itself was mainly a foreign import.

Those white nationalists still believe that all civilization was purely white, but Egypt which has twice everybody elses' history was brown, not snow white, even though the Egyptians are classified as white down to this day by most reasonable people - albeit not the snow white nationalists themselves...
Some people never learn. They don't care about genetic studies. Of course Greece never looked like Norway, why would Eastern Med islanders look like Vikings? By the way, I don't think Ancient Egypt was white (i.e. European). They were most likely some kind of Middle Eastern (not Negroes) with little to no Steppe ancestry.

[ciftci]

Both Kurds and Turks share the same religion (Sunni Islam) and belong to the same broad West Asian genetic cluster. Just force them to speak Turkish and they'll be fine. Outsiders don't see the difference. The birth rate will subside and stabilize with time. The situation is not really comparable with that in Europe because the migrants are racially and culturally non-European.

It's true, I accept assimilated Kurds etc other Anatolians as Turks. But, many Kurds are resistant to this.

[Dorian]

It's true, I accept assimilated Kurds etc other Anatolians as Turks. But, many Kurds are resistant to this.

https://i.postimg.cc/8Cjv9cFW/fasfafa.jpg (https://postimg.cc/KKh4gZDv)

[Epirus DNA]

Albanians and greeks have almost identical dna.. this is not surprising because athens had an albanian majority in ottoman times.. one may assume that greeks aren't real greeks but just albanians with different language/religion..

greek-cypriots on the other hand are probably genuine greeks. without slavic and albanian input.

This is not true-- at all. The Greeks are Greeks. In regard to Albanians, the Southern Tosk Albanians differ genetically from the Kosovars, Tetovo & Northern Albanians. Even though all the Albanians are Balkan, the Tosk Albanians are clustered with Greeks to the Aegean group while the rest are distantly genetically different & can be clustered along with Romanians, Slavs, and even Germans.

Main difference is genetics.

Tosk is predominantly of Indo-European / Ancestral European descent sorta like Scandinavian combo (60% of total gene pool). + 40% MENA neolithic farmer.

Gheg is the other way around, he is 72% MENA neolithic farmer and 28% I-E/WHG.

Other difference is Religion.

Tosk are half Christian with other half not religious or “officially Muslim”

Ghegs are either Muslim or not religious with minority Christian in the north west Albania.

There are some other linguistic and cultural differences such as traditions and costumes due to different influences from other cultures and so on…

Obvious differences:

Gheg is usually taller because he is dinarized by the mountains (meaning +5–6 cm on his natural racial height, IE dinarized American would be 185, dinarized Hindu 172 etc). Gheg has sharp features and looks usually like South Italian or North African body tone. Almost always dark haired unlike Tosk.

Tosk is Unusually short about 171 cm, and is a medical mystery why since Greeks with similar composition sport 178 cm. Probably decades of malnutrition but I do not know for sure. Fair skinned with all sorts of hair color variations.

[ciftci]

https://i.postimg.cc/8Cjv9cFW/fasfafa.jpg (https://postimg.cc/KKh4gZDv)

Well, it depends who we mix with. I find Turkmens mixing with Hellenics in Western Turkey successful mixing. But, Turkmens mixing in Eastern Turkey and getting armenoid phenotypes is not my favorite.
Turks dislike negroes, despite of not showing reaction to them. It's coded in these lands that white is right. Look at janissaries, Circassian brides etc. We brought negroes here after castrating their men.

[Petros Houhoulis]

I also want some kind of take over here. These times are times of chaos. From chaos, order is given to birth. We need new values or we will continue rotting and pass away as a nation.

There is no chance of values getting restored in Turkey anytime soon. All of this requires a certain level of IQ with Turkey being exactly on the limit where democracies can fuction (90) and dropping rapidly, either because of the Kurdish or Arab imports, or even perhaps from increased child poverty. What really shocked me was a map which showed the younger generation having an IQ of 85, at a time when everybody expected an increase of IQ over time due to the Flynn effect, but unfortunately even Flynn himself has witness a fall of IQ in several countries with no clear cut explanation for the cause - he said that it wasn't just migration, even some white Swedes were going down. So I am not very optimistic to be honest. Greece seems to getting better for now, but I can't say if this shall last.

https://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/a9r1gj6_460s.jpg


Average Turkish nationalists here can't see demographically, we are destined to die out here.

Your folks' support for a Kurdish purge indicates that they can see the demographic problem, but they cannot find a practical solution, because you cannot purge the Kurds without a genocide which shall result to civil war and a financial meltdown on the spot, which shall doom Turkey. Simultaneously Turkey cannot assimilate the Kurds, because if the Kurds aspire to be something, that would be Europeans, and no matter how often does your regime declare the west to be the devil incarnate, everybody in Turkey including the rising numbers of Atheists and Agnostics shall prefer to be Europeans rather than abide by a crumbling ideology and state. Turkey is walking into a moral minefield from where it stands no chance of crossing intact and in one piece. It looks more likely it shall split to three pieces in the long run.


They like being chauvinists praising history and meaningless heroism.

This is the staple of sterile and defeated nationalism. It reminds me of Hitler chastising Himmler with his obsession with paganism while reminding him that they need Christianity to keep NAZI Germany functioning. Of course Hitler was much more of a realist than Himmler - for all of his other failures, this was why he led Germany and not someone like Himmler. Your Sultan is equally more realist by sticking to Islam while chastising the Neo-Pagan IYI but again, your Sultan has the same problem with his idol, he is fighting a losing battle on a much wider scale. While both Hitler and your Sultan can deal with domestic issues, their drive to expand or lose power results to more and more enemies ganging up on you until the inevitable. In short, your nationalists are like Himmler, they might bark and hiss, but they won't even be able to consolidate power in Turkey ever and they shall always be reduced to puppets of the Sultan, or even somebody else when the Sultan shall be gone, assuming that Turkey shall survive the implosion that will result to the fall of the Sultan for an entirely different set of reasons.


But, the best thing a nationalist can do is educating himself, doing his job as his best and thinking about his nation's future by graphs. Everything is about graphs, numbers, extrapolations. This is the same for Europeans too.

Statistics are important, but you won't get off the grass without a vision. You can have a vision and still be a total fuckup like your Sultan who is shifting his "Vision" according to the interests of today, but a strong vision has to be about a well thought tomorrow which will have to take account of all these graphs and numbers and extrapolations, but also a little thing called morality as well. This little thing is where all of you fail miserably, perhaps because the IQ of the majority is insufficient to establish a functioning morality, the only viable solution is to exterminate the stupid half, somehow... If you can find the trick of how it's done without to arouse suspicion or hatred or revulsion outside, of course. This cannot accomplished strictly along ethnic divisions, for example, those sterile nationalists belong to the lower half of the scale...

That's why I never identified with the "golden dawn". Most of them cannot even speak or write proper Greek...

[Dorian]

Well, it depends who we mix with. I find Turkmens mixing with Hellenics in Western Turkey successful mixing. But, Turkmens mixing in Eastern Turkey and getting armenoid phenotypes is not my favorite.
Turks dislike negroes, despite of not showing reaction to them. It's coded in these lands that white is right. Look at janissaries, Circassian brides etc. We brought negroes here after castrating their men.

What about Scythian+East Asian+Armenoid mix?I think it's the best type to combine all the elements of Anatolian Turk. https://i.postimg.cc/J0MZ6W9B/Screenshot-1.jpg (https://postimg.cc/cgkvCP1s)
https://i.postimg.cc/dQj87LyR/Screenshot-2.jpg (https://postimg.cc/144g2RM4)

[ciftci]

What about Scythian+East Asian+Armenoid mix?I think it's the best type to combine all the elements of Anatolian Turk. https://i.postimg.cc/J0MZ6W9B/Screenshot-1.jpg (https://postimg.cc/cgkvCP1s)
https://i.postimg.cc/dQj87LyR/Screenshot-2.jpg (https://postimg.cc/144g2RM4)

Many Turkish men suffer chinlessness unfortunately, because of armenoid admixture. I wish our ancestors had some idea of aesthetics and mixed with only women with good bone development.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Both Kurds and Turks share the same religion (Sunni Islam) and belong to the same broad West Asian genetic cluster. Just force them to speak Turkish and they'll be fine.

It's more complex than that. The Kurds have on average a lower IQ than the average Turkish citizen, to begin with... And how are you going to stop them to speak Kurdish at home? Turkey did all of this and even went as far as suggesting that the Kurds are "mountainous Turks" once, but it never worked, and as a result it keeps making more and more concessions to the Kurds over time. The moment the Kurds exceeded 10% of the population and even joined the Turkish parliament, all notion of curbing their identity was doomed to failure...


Outsiders don't see the difference.

The Turks do. They have to sustain those Kurds, and now Arabs too. The Sultan came to power with their votes, half of them vote for the HDP, the rest for the Sultan because of subsidies...


The birth rate will subside and stabilize with time.

Not before Turkey becomes majority Kurdish. The real problem is that the Kurds shall always be poorer and they shall always have greater families than the average Turkish citizen, unless if Turkey becomes Arabic in the meantime!!!


The situation is not really comparable with that in Europe because the migrants are racially and culturally non-European.

Europe is far better, there aren't many countries with a 20% hostile minority and the IQ difference between Europeans and migrants/refugees shall guarantee who will remain on top 'till the end of time. In Turkey, there is barely a functioning state to begin with...

[ciftci]

There is no chance of values getting restored in Turkey anytime soon. All of this requires a certain level of IQ with Turkey being exactly on the limit where democracies can fuction (90) and dropping rapidly, either because of the Kurdish or Arab imports, or even perhaps from increased child poverty. What really shocked me was a map which showed the younger generation having an IQ of 85, at a time when everybody expected an increase of IQ over time due to the Flynn effect, but unfortunately even Flynn himself has witness a fall of IQ in several countries with no clear cut explanation for the cause - he said that it wasn't just migration, even some white Swedes were going down. So I am not very optimistic to be honest. Greece seems to getting better for now, but I can't say if this shall last.

https://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/a9r1gj6_460s.jpgYour folks' support for a Kurdish purge indicates that they can see the demographic problem, but they cannot find a practical solution, because you cannot purge the Kurds without a genocide which shall result to civil war and a financial meltdown on the spot, which shall doom Turkey. Simultaneously Turkey cannot assimilate the Kurds, because if the Kurds aspire to be something, that would be Europeans, and no matter how often does your regime declare the west to be the devil incarnate, everybody in Turkey including the rising numbers of Atheists and Agnostics shall prefer to be Europeans rather than abide by a crumbling ideology and state. Turkey is walking into a moral minefield from where it stands no chance of crossing intact and in one piece. It looks more likely it shall split to three pieces in the long run.This is the staple of sterile and defeated nationalism. It reminds me of Hitler chastising Himmler with his obsession with paganism while reminding him that they need Christianity to keep NAZI Germany functioning. Of course Hitler was much more of a realist than Himmler - for all of his other failures,this was why he led Germany and not someone like Himmler. Your Sultan is equally more realist by sticking to Islam while chastising the Neo-Pagan IYI but again, your Sultan has the same problem with his idol, he is fighting a losing battle on a much wider scale. While both Hitler and your Sultan can deal with domestic issues, their drive to expand or lose power results to more and more enemies ganging up on you until the inevitable. In short, your nationalists are like Himmler, they might bark and hiss, but they won't even be able to consolidate power in Turkey ever and they shall always be reduced to puppets of the Sultan, or even somebody else when the Sultan shall be gone, assuming that Turkey shall survive the implosion that will result to the fall of the Sultan for an entirely different set of reasons.

Statistics are important, but you won't get off the grass without a vision. You can have a vision and still be a total fuckup like your Sultan who is shifting his "Vision" according to the interests of today, but a strong vision has to be about a well thought tomorrow which will have to take account of all these graphs and numbers and extrapolations, but also a little thing called morality as well. This little thing is where all of you fail miserably, perhaps because the IQ of the majority is insufficient to establish a functioning morality, the only viable solution is to exterminate the stupid half, somehow... If you can find the trick of how it's done without to arouse suspicion or hatred or revulsion outside, of course. This cannot accomplished strictly along ethnic divisions, for example, those sterile nationalists belong to the lower half of the scale...

That's why I never identified with the "golden dawn". Most of them cannot even speak or write proper Greek...

I know devolution is getting faster than ever here. I also know nothing can stop it.

But, I wouldn't want to be assimilated into an European identity. It sounds loserish. I wish we can stick to ours by enhancing it with honesty and hardwork. But, idealism doesn't work for plebs or streets. Thus, chaos is our future.

At the end, nationalism is good, when it's patrician.

[Leto]

There is no chance of values getting restored in Turkey anytime soon. All of this requires a certain level of IQ with Turkey being exactly on the limit where democracies can fuction (90) and dropping rapidly, either because of the Kurdish or Arab imports, or even perhaps from increased child poverty. What really shocked me was a map which showed the younger generation having an IQ of 85, at a time when everybody expected an increase of IQ over time due to the Flynn effect, but unfortunately even Flynn himself has witness a fall of IQ in several countries with no clear cut explanation for the cause - he said that it wasn't just migration, even some white Swedes were going down. So I am not very optimistic to be honest. Greece seems to getting better for now, but I can't say if this shall last.

https://images-cdn.9gag.com/photo/a9r1gj6_460s.jpg
Who made this map? It looks completely bogus. Russians at 90? Ukraine and Belarus even lower? Lol, this can't be true, we should be at least in the upper 90s.
There are no up-to-date national IQ studies, all people can cite is the same old Flynn study.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Some people never learn. They don't care about genetic studies. Of course Greece never looked like Norway, why would Eastern Med islanders look like Vikings? By the way, I don't think Ancient Egypt was white (i.e. European). They were most likely some kind of Middle Eastern (not Negroes) with little to no Steppe ancestry.

Actually, the Ancient Egyptians were a bit whiter than you think (https://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/22/health/ancient-egypt-mummy-dna-genome-heritage/index.html), something that snow white nationalists will shout to you 'till the end of time, if they ever get back to their senses...

[Petros Houhoulis]

It's true, I accept assimilated Kurds etc other Anatolians as Turks. But, many Kurds are resistant to this.

Why should they accept this when you do not support an indigenous culture, and if they don't have to be Kurds, why shouldn't they be Greeks or Icelanders or Russians or Portuguese? If they have to change an identity, wouldn't they choose one worth choosing? What could modern Turkey offer them? It doesn't have a history, it has a rap sheet. It doesn't have justice or reason, or even a meaning the way it behaves nowadays and it has worked multiple times in its' past like during the late Ottoman era... which is coming back from the grave with the exact prospects it had a century ago: Falling apart rapidly...

[ciftci]

Why should they accept this when you do not support an indigenous culture, and if they don't have to be Kurds, why shouldn't they be Greeks or Icelanders or Russians or Portuguese? If they have to change an identity, wouldn't they choose one worth choosing? What could modern Turkey offer them? It doesn't have a history, it has a rap sheet. It doesn't have justice or reason, or even a meaning the way it behaves nowadays and it has worked multiple times in its' past like during the late Ottoman era... which is coming back from the grave with the exact prospects it had a century ago: Falling apart rapidly...

Average Kurd passing as Russian, Icelandic haha. Phenotypes create national identity. They can pass as Turks at best averagely. Anyway today there are millions of Semitic looking Kurds saying they are Indo-Europeans, they are Aryans, they superior to us sincerely. Middle Eastern people are full of superiority and inferiority complex because of heterogeneity and fractional societies.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Well, it depends who we mix with. I find Turkmens mixing with Hellenics in Western Turkey successful mixing. But, Turkmens mixing in Eastern Turkey and getting armenoid phenotypes is not my favorite.
Turks dislike negroes, despite of not showing reaction to them. It's coded in these lands that white is right. Look at janissaries, Circassian brides etc. We brought negroes here after castrating their men.

I'm not so sure that the success of a state and a nation depends on phenotypes. I could argue that the real problem is the IQ difference between east and west:

https://i.redd.it/m5it6j11sw201.png

As I said before, IQ does not depend solely upon genetics and child poverty can have a devastating effect upon peoples' intelligence. The eastern regions are poorer for geographic reasons, that's why most of them are flocking near the western and southern coast. One of these migrants have managed to cuck all of you, which means that he is smarter than most of you...

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/J1qpEM2zQtOz_zumZ2LU_7H9I16DNxW-TACHdVs3Lf3xfBotL94WePHKGC-5QqulKvdJGDodNrHIw14ttW1jKWYRx1nHztY=s750

He ain't that smart, he is only smarter than most of you!

[Petros Houhoulis]

I know devolution is getting faster than ever here. I also know nothing can stop it.

But, I wouldn't want to be assimilated into an European identity. It sounds loserish.

Well, many of your folks in Germany claim they have done so. The question is what do you want to lose, and whether you can really win somehow, anyhow.


I wish we can stick to ours by enhancing it with honesty and hardwork.

You cannot save a state by contradicting the essence of that state. Turkey is a mess because this was always the state ideology, you can get a statement from a lawmaker suggesting that government does things outside of the law virtually every decade, and that's how often they are honest really...


But, idealism doesn't work for plebs or streets. Thus, chaos is our future.

Idealism works if you have the right idea and enough people to understand it. Your Sultan started as a pleb in the streets as an "Idealist", even though he never had a clue, aside from knowing when to change opinion and allies.


At the end, nationalism is good, when it's patrician.

Nationalism is good if you can make sense out of it, just like everything else.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Who made this map? It looks completely bogus. Russians at 90? Ukraine and Belarus even lower? Lol, this can't be true, we should be at least in the upper 90s.

On all population that would be the case, on youth IQ things could be different. As I said child poverty and stupid migrants filling your country can have devastating effects in the long run. Russia is having both problems.

https://redice.tv/a/c/n/16/12161151-world-map-iq-drop-due-to-immigration.ab94b306.jpg


There are no up-to-date national IQ studies, all people can cite is the same old Flynn study.

This is not a Flynn study, the Flynn studies have Russia well above 90...

[Petros Houhoulis]

Average Kurd passing as Russian, Icelandic haha. Phenotypes create national identity.

Not really, all nations have a wide variety of phenotypes. IQs matter, appearances can be deceiving...


They can pass as Turks at best averagely. Anyway today there are millions of Semitic looking Kurds saying they are Indo-Europeans, they are Aryans, they superior to us sincerely.

That's why you are doomed. You cannot explain reasonably that you are better to them, and even if you do, if they have to change they can find something better than you. The real problem though is that you cannot convince yourself that your own state is good, because, hell, it is not! If you cannot even fix this, talking to the Kurds won't solve any problem, even if you manage to convince them! The only difference is that your Sultan shall be subsidizing hordes of different people to stay in power. He tried that with Arabs too!!!


Middle Eastern people are full of superiority and inferiority complex because of heterogeneity and fractional societies.

Middle Eastern people are a fuckup due to inbreeding and low IQs. Even reasonably homogeneous societies like Egypt are in the verge of failure while the likes of Qatar and UAE can function because they imported smarter people to deal with their problems.

[21993]

Well, it depends who we mix with. I find Turkmens mixing with Hellenics in Western Turkey successful mixing. But, Turkmens mixing in Eastern Turkey and getting armenoid phenotypes is not my favorite.
Turks dislike negroes, despite of not showing reaction to them. It's coded in these lands that white is right. Look at janissaries, Circassian brides etc. We brought negroes here after castrating their men.

AFAIK, pure Armenoid look is rare among Turks, Turks are usually Dinaro-Med or Pontid with Turanid, Armenoid and Iranid tendencies depending on the region.

[Petros Houhoulis]

AFAIK, pure Armenoid look is rare among Turks, Turks are usually Dinaro-Med or Pontid with Turanid, Armenoid and Iranid tendencies depending on the region.

Stop this discussion before we see other people messing around here, and if this guy gets his nose around, it's hard to push it back...

https://www.cheatsheet.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/Longest-Nose.png

Oh god, how do you even cope with living in Turkey nowadays? I wonder how do you wake up in the morning and decide to live another day, what keeps you going, really...

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/311/662/8e3.jpg_large

[Thracian]

Aaah! Our Scythian boy! And I was wandering what had happened to all those Scythian slaves who were imported to Greece as flutists, harpists and so on! May I start calling you "Hot flanks"? You know, like those names for Amazons found in Ancient Greek vases? Say hello to your grandma, Hot flanks!

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/NAMA_3_Muses.jpg/280px-NAMA_3_Muses.jpg

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/9/140923-amazon-greek-vase-translations-science/

It seems you have no idea about genetics and distances. Bad news for you, many Northern Greeks have Scyhthians (Moldova) with lower distances. You are claiming that you are from Macedonia. If you are not an Anatolian immigrant there you would probably have them with lower distance too. They are also predominantly Balkan native by the way.

[Petros Houhoulis]

It seems you have no idea about genetics and distances. Bad news for you, many Northern Greeks have Scyhthians (Moldova) with lower distances. You are claiming that you are from Macedonia. If you are not an Anatolian immigrant there you would probably have them with lower distance too. They are also predominantly Balkan native by the way.

What did you say "Hot Flanks"? OOOh, you make me horny!

http://sc01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1DVqESVXXXXa.XVXXq6xXFXXXw/Hot-Girl-Nighty-Sexy-Night-Open-Sexy.jpg

[Dorian]

AFAIK, pure Armenoid look is rare among Turks, Turks are usually Dinaro-Med or Pontid with Turanid, Armenoid and Iranid tendencies depending on the region.

*armenicized-cappadocian med/anatolid/alpine+irano-afghan.

[Thracian]

What did you say "Hot Flanks"? OOOh, you make me horny!

http://sc01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1DVqESVXXXXa.XVXXq6xXFXXXw/Hot-Girl-Nighty-Sexy-Night-Open-Sexy.jpg

LOL. You are not just a stupid but also a gay.

[21993]

*armenicized-cappadocian med/anatolid/alpine+irano-afghan.

Cappadocian Med is kind of Dinaricised Mediterranean

[Dorian]

Cappadocian Med is kind of Dinaricised Mediterranean

Yes but the "dinaric" is misleading since it's about specific geography ,it's only used because armenoids were called Asiatic-Dinarics&to describe it as a process but the underlying blend is different ,any relation goes back in time as with all types.

[Petros Houhoulis]

LOL. You are not just a stupid but also a gay.

You just wasted your last hope of fleeing that shithole where you live, "Hot Flanks". Sooner than you think you shall be reconsidering requesting asylum as a persecuted LGBT ladyboy in some European embassy...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgKiHzy97AE

I am more inclined to troll and mock canines rather than to care about subtle genetic markers like "Scythian" and what not... Haven't you figured this yet?

[Dorian]

I am more inclined to troll and mock canines rather than to care about subtle genetic markers like "Scythian" and what not... Haven't you figured this yet?

Either way , Greek+Scythian produces a nice,smart,calm&focused breed ,it's only in the contact with canine that the Scythian becomes degenerated leading to a blindly aggressive breed ,it can be an effective strategy for the animal but not for long-term.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFX7N6rGZQg

[Renekton]

Turks...

[Thracian]

You just wasted your last hope of fleeing that shithole where you live, "Hot Flanks". Sooner than you think you shall be reconsidering requesting asylum as a persecuted LGBT ladyboy in some European embassy...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgKiHzy97AE

I am more inclined to troll and mock canines rather than to care about subtle genetic markers like "Scythian" and what not... Haven't you figured this yet?

Let us clear it. I copied and pasted it just for fun. It is just genetic similarity and it doesn't mean I am Scythian from Moldova. I have never claimed such a thing ancestry before.

Do you really think that trolling and mocking Turks every time is fun? Don't you even tired to do same things all the time?

[Chelubey]

This is an interesting perspective. Yes indeed, one nation needs to identify to stay alive, but being alive is not necessarily the best fate one can have. Take for example a group of people who claim to descend from wolves:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asena



You know very little about the real non-Wikipedia Turkic ethnic peoples, just as I know little about Dorians, Achaeans, and so on. The myth about Ashina is largely imported from medieval non-Turkic foreign sources and is not known in a living form by any Turkic peoples( even in the Middle Ages). Later this myth became popular among Turkish nationalists. Perhaps this myth never existed among the Turkic peoples and this was the fantasy of Chinese medieval chroniclers or this myth was created by one of the Turkic or Mongolian tribes in the early Middle Ages in East Asia

[Petros Houhoulis]

Let us clear it. I copied and pasted it just for fun. It is just genetic similarity and it doesn't mean I am Scythian from Moldova. I have never claimed such a thing ancestry before.

What's wrong with being a Scythian from Moldova? Do you prefer to be a canine instead? SHAME ON YOU!!!


Do you really think that trolling and mocking Turks every time is fun? Don't you even tired to do same things all the time?

Actually I have had quite a few reasonable discussions with cifti lately, but most of you folks are just entertainment for me. The likes of Itivolga, Annihilus, Turul Karom and even Marmara cannot keep up with the propaganda efforts they are trying to sustain around here....

[21993]

Yes but the "dinaric" is misleading since it's about specific geography ,it's only used because armenoids were called Asiatic-Dinarics&to describe it as a process but the underlying blend is different ,any relation goes back in time as with all types.

Dinaricisation can occur in any subrace and Dinaricisation is not blending with Dinarid or Armenoid subraces. Cappadocian Med is simply Dinaricised Mediterranean, not Armenoid + Mediterranid blend.

[archangel]

Greek ancestry in ehnic Türks are minimal

[Dorian]

Dinaricisation can occur in any subrace and Dinaricisation is not blending with Dinarid or Armenoid subraces. Cappadocian Med is simply Dinaricised Mediterranean, not Armenoid + Mediterranid blend.

You didn't understand what I said , this "dinaric" process is the result of a doli + brachy hybrid,the elements in the blends are different so a more proper term would be armenicized for asiatics(since iranoafghan/cappadocian med produces armenoids,anatolids ,armenicized med would be an armenoid without the full-blown hyperbrachycephaly =same blend ,different results).

If you were to call "dolichocephalization" a process and some anthropologist had called cappadocian meds "asiatic atlantids" ,they still-wouldn't-be atlantids ,got it?In the same way that you can't call dinarics norics .

"The Armenoid type is a stable hybrid between two principal elements, the Alpine race and the Irano-Afghan division of the Mediterranean stock, mixed at the ratio of 2 of the latter to 1 of the former."

"Coon's Cappadocian was an Iron Age Long-faced Mediterranean "Irano-Afghan" "

[21993]

"The Armenoid type is a stable hybrid between two principal elements, the Alpine race and the Irano-Afghan division of the Mediterranean stock, mixed at the ratio of 2 of the latter to 1 of the former."

I don’t think this is true because Armenoids are more brachy than Alpines and also Irano-Afghans. In that case, Armenoids should have had an intermediate cephalic index.

[Dorian]

I don’t think this is true because Armenoids are more brachy than Alpines and also Irano-Afghans. In that case, Armenoids should have had an intermediate cephalic index.

It's not matter of personal opinion ,If you want to follow old anthropologists it's a fact , hybridization isn't just "averaging".

"Armenoids: A similar brachycephalic composite type, with the same head form as the Dinaric, but a larger face and nose. The pigmentation is almost entirely brunet, the pilous development of beard and body abundant, the nose high rooted, convex, and the tip depressed, especially in advanced age.The difference between the Armenoid and the Dinaric is that here it is the Irano-Afghan race which furnishes the Mediterranean element, brachycephalized by Alpine mixture."

[Rgvgjhvv]

Greek ancestry in ehnic Türks are minimal

That's just not possible with the OP's results.

[SharpFork]

C'mon guys, Anatolian Greeks are Greeks too, or do Turks think that Herodotus and other Anatolian Greek figures are not Greek? Or are they specificalyl the only non-Anatolian ones when the rest of the population was genetically Anatolian? We can cherrypick all we want but by 11th century Anatolia has been overwhelmingly Greek and Orthodox for half a millennia and Greek Anatolians existed for about 2 millennia.

[Petros Houhoulis]

You know very little about the real non-Wikipedia Turkic ethnic peoples, just as I know little about Dorians, Achaeans, and so on.

I am not chasing Turkics around this forum, but deranged canines with an obsession for all things Turkic or Muslim, so indeed I know too little about the Turkic people because they are not in my crosshairs.


The myth about Ashina is largely imported from medieval non-Turkic foreign sources and is not known in a living form by any Turkic peoples( even in the Middle Ages).

Explain that to the canines and especially the Grey wolves (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m387weqj7PQ)... No... never mind, they are too stupid to understand anything anyway. 2/3rds of them cannot even read in Turkish! (https://www.turkishminute.com/2019/07/17/survey-shows-66-percent-of-turkish-students-do-not-understand-what-they-read/)


Later this myth became popular among Turkish nationalists.

a.k.a. canines.


Perhaps this myth never existed among the Turkic peoples and this was the fantasy of Chinese medieval chroniclers or this myth was created by one of the Turkic or Mongolian tribes in the early Middle Ages in East Asia

Whatever, what matters is that those canines believe that canine shit and as a result they behave like beasts against everybody, including Turkic people (https://www.turkishminute.com/2019/10/11/akp-deputy-says-some-circles-trying-to-smear-him-over-uzbek-maids-death/). If I were you, I would never let such a beautiful Turkic girl to get anywhere near that subhuman... Honestly, I am reading this shit and I'm getting angry on your behalf!

https://www.turkishminute.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/nadira-696x392.jpg