Is Vistula River a genetic border

[Peterski]

I think Poles with ancestry from areas just to the east of the Vistula have slightly different results than Poles with ancestry from areas just to the west of the Vistula:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4b/Vistula_river_map.png/556px-Vistula_river_map.png

[Ülev]

no, recent partitions of Poland makes difference too, so Łódź will be closer to Warszawa than Kraków or Gdańsk?

[Peterski]

no, recent partitions of Poland makes difference too (...) so Łódź will be closer to Warszawa than Kraków (...)

I don't think so. But I'm not sure about areas between Pilica and Vistula including Radom and Kielce.

[Jana]

Could be, rivers as big as that used to be genetic boudaries in the past. This makes sense to me.

[Token]

I don't think so, Slavs look all the same.

[Cumansky]

Sandomierz Krakow and Warszawa in North and everything Southeast

[Peterski]

I don't think so, Slavs look all the same.

In tests like DNA Tribes or DNA Land there are big differences between different regions of Poland.

[Loki]

Historically very Germanic, both to the east and west of it actually (the northern part).

[Cumansky]

Historically very Germanic, both to the east and west of it actually (the northern part).

There was no Germans in West or East Galicia territory East of Vistula River. What German you think is there?

[Dick]

In tests like DNA Tribes or DNA Land there are big differences between different regions of Poland.

Dna tribes made me too Slavic


https://i.imgur.com/5XiCyDz.jpg

[Cumansky]

Dna tribes made me too Slavic


https://i.imgur.com/5XiCyDz.jpg

For Poles best option Global 25 because is made by one of them, Global 25 is probably best option for everyone

[Peterski]

Historically very Germanic, both to the east and west of it actually (the northern part).

Ancient Romans always saw the Vistula River as a border river between different lands and peoples.

Marcus Agrippa wrote:

"Dacia, Getica finiuntur ab oriente desertis Sarmatiae, ab occidente flumine Vistula, a septentrione Oceano, a meridie flumine Histro. (...) Germania, Raetia, ager Noricus ab oriente flumine Vistula et silva Hyrcania, ab occidente flumine Rheno, a septentrione Oceano, a meridie iugis Alpium et flumine Danubio. (...) Germania omnis et Dacia finiuntur ab oriente flumine Vistla, ab occidente flumine Rheno, a septentrione mari Oceano, a meridie flumine Danubio. (...) Dacia finitur ab oriente desertis Sarmatiae, ab occidente flumine Vistla, a septentrione Oceano, a meridie flumine Histro."

Pomponius Mela wrote:

"Sarmatia intus quam ad mare latior, ab his quae secuntur Vistula amne discreta, qua retro abit usque ad Histrum flumen inmittitur. Gens habitu armisque Parthicae proxima (...)."

========

Check also:

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/05/conan-barbarian-probably-belonged-to-y.html

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/07/asiatic-east-germanics.html

[Mingle]

I don't think so. But I'm not sure about areas between Pilica and Vistula including Radom and Kielce.

Do you have the GEDmatch results of Poles from around Lubin?

[Peterski]

Dna tribes made me too Slavic

In DNA Tribes in "Total Ancestral Fit - European Populations":

- me (Polish with ancestry from the west of Vistula): 1. Czech, 2. Slovenia, 3. Slovakia
- mlukas (Polish east of Vistula): 1. Ukraine West, 2. Russia Oryol, 3. Russia Smolensk

[Figaro]

Litvinski, broadly speaking, what are the differences between each “genetic region” among poles as well as traditional poles from outside the modern borders? I have ideas, but you have gone through this stuff with a finer comb.

I thought we were all Uralic admixed! (J/k. That was a joke about the over-use of Estonian Polish samples...)

[Dick]

In DNA Tribes in "Total Ancestral Fit - European Populations":

- me (Polish with ancestry from the west of Vistula): 1. Czech, 2. Slovenia, 3. Slovakia
- mlukas (Polish east of Vistula): 1. Ukraine West, 2. Russia Oryol, 3. Russia Smolensk

I guess it's not that bad after all

[Token]

In tests like DNA Tribes or DNA Land there are big differences between different regions of Poland.

It has more to do with DNA Tribes being a terrible calculator.

[Leto]

Dna tribes made me too Slavic

When I learned the company was run by African Americans, I knew it wasn't worth a dime ;) At least for me.

[Dick]

When I learned the company was run by African Americans, I knew it wasn't worth a dime ;) At least for me.

Then that would make them less biased than Poles. It was just a raw data upload anyway.

[Ülev]

remember this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recovered_Territories
Lubuskie (51%), Zachodniopomorskie (25%), Dolnośląskie (47%) and Opolskie (30%) can be more eastern than Siedlce
here map about Poles with eastern heritage from mentioned above regions (voievodeships)
https://pl.delfi.lt/aktualia/polska/kresowe-korzenie-polakow.d?id=61865863

[Peterski]

It has more to do with DNA Tribes being a terrible calculator.

I get pretty much the same results using Global25 as in DNA Tribes, though.

[Token]

Then that would make them less biased than Poles. It was just a raw data upload anyway.

Are you suggesting that Poles have a secret agenda of trying to Polonize everyone who tests with them?

[Token]

I get pretty much the same results using Global25 as in DNA Tribes, though.

Post your G25 single distances.

[Dick]

Are you suggesting that Poles have a secret agenda of trying to Polonize everyone who tests with them?

No just the germans

[Peterski]

Post your G25 single distances.

Unscaled or scaled?


Are you suggesting that Poles have a secret agenda of trying to Polonize everyone who tests with them?

23andMe (Anne Wojcicki) is giving everyone a match to Poland lately (under "East European"). I think it shows Poland is the Proto-Slavic Urheimat?

Especially South Slavs score Poland more often than Ukraine.


Do you have the GEDmatch results of Poles from around Lublin?

Yes I do but I'm looking for some from Radom and Kielce.

[Figaro]

Really? Hmm. Have not noticed any of my dads matches having “unexpected” east euro. I wonder if it’s popping up for German-Americans a lot. 23 doesn’t seem to easily mis-assign east euro for say, Brit islanders. Not increasingly often, at least.

Unscaled or scaled?



23andMe (Anne Wojcicki) is giving everyone a match to Poland lately (under "East European"). I think it shows Poland is the Proto-Slavic Urheimat?



Yes I do but I'm looking for some from Radom and Kielce.

[Leto]

23andMe (Anne Wojcicki) is giving everyone a match to Poland lately (under "East European"). I think it shows Poland is the Proto-Slavic Urheimat?

Especially South Slavs score Poland more often than Ukraine.

Polish is the most common East European ancestry in the US. That may be a reason.

[Peterski]

Really? Hmm. Have not noticed any of my dads matches having “unexpected” east euro.

What I mean is that people who score some "East Euro", usually have "Poland" as their 1st top country under East Euro.


Polish is the most common East European ancestry in the US. That may be a reason.

Or Polish ancestry is so widespread in Europe - all the Marcinkiewicz Project Belarusians are partially Polish, for example.

[Figaro]

What I mean is that people who score some "East Euro", usually have "Poland" as their 1st top country under East Euro.

Ah, I misunderstood. Don’t mind me.

That makes sense. I have noticed some of my moms Russian and Belarusian relatives scoring Southeast regions in Poland kind of a lot.

[Mingle]

Yes I do but I'm looking for some from Radom and Kielce.

Can you just post one result from anywhere east of the Vistula (excluding Baltic-influenced Warmia-Masuria & Podlaskie) so we can compare them to western Polish results?

[Leto]

Or Polish ancestry is so widespread in Europe - all the Marcinkiewicz Project Belarusians are partially Polish, for example.
Are they? Bel-Poles may as well be Polonized East Slavs. A lot of his samples don't even get Polish as their first or second pop.

[Token]

Unscaled or scaled?.

Scaled.

[Figaro]

Are they? Bel-Poles may as well be Polonized East Slavs. A lot of his samples don't even get Polish as their first or second pop.

This runs true for many. My mother is half Litvin Pole and despite the other half being Danish and German, she clusters with Czechs. Thus, her Slavic side must be pretty easterly shifted.

[Cumansky]

Do you have the GEDmatch results of Poles from around Lubin?

Yes, what Calculators?

[Leto]

This runs true for many. My mother is half Litvin Pole and despite the other half being Danish and German, she clusters with Czechs. Thus, her Slavic side must be pretty easterly shifted.
My father is at least 1/4 Bel-Polish and he's also very 'Balto-Slavic'

Population Percentage
Baltic 30.80%
Eastern European 25.93%
Atlantic 17.22%
North Sea 16.39%
West Mediterranean 4.45%
West Asian 3.05%
Amerindian 0.65%
South Asian 0.65%
Southeast-Asian 0.42%
Siberian 0.39%
Oceanian 0.04%

Population Distance
Estonian_Polish 0.4353221
Southwest_Russian 0.5632074
Belorussian 0.6178082
Russian_Smolensk 0.644612
Ukrainian_Belgorod 0.6448341
Kargopol_Russian 0.8338177
Lithuanian 0.8745936
Polish 0.8895859

Population Value
Estonian_Polish 83.4
Erzya 9.8
Kargopol_Russian 3.6
Karelia_HG 0.8
Chuvash 0.6
Samara_HG 0.6
Belorussian 0.4
Russian_Smolensk 0.4
Mari 0.2
Yamnaya_I0357 0.2

[Leto]

Fucking Peterski is Polonizing everything again xD

[Token]

Peterski you should become a comedian man.

[Dick]

https://media.tenor.com/images/ce01ecaf5a252b3b2b0425817adab4e1/tenor.gif

[Cumansky]

Come on man... it is obvious that you have no any Central Polish ancestry, look where you cluster in Global25:

(I'm sure that your ancestors from Central Poland have migration background from further east in 1800s or 1700s)

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?288601-Global-25-map-by-Ph2ter&p=6016308&viewfull=1#post6016308

https://i.postimg.cc/6QH4582Z/G25all.png

^^^ You cluster with Russians from Kostroma!

Listen Peterski, Mykhailo is close to where he should be, I don't know for Lukasz if this is trusted method or just some proxy for his above average Early Baltic and Early Slavic affinities he shows in the calculators more likely scenario.

But another note for these goofs in the thread, to say Polish genes didn't go East, pure lies.

[Peterski]

Scaled.

Based on my Living DNA raw data, scaled:


,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
PeterskiLDs,0.135449,0.142174,0.065619,0.056848,0. 036007,0.021475,0.004935,0.006,0.005522,-0.01877,-0.004709,-0.005245,0.011744,0.011698,-0.005157,0.00053,0.002868,0.000887,-0.003897,-0.003252,-0.009358,-0.001978,0.007025,0.015785,-0.002634

I plan to merge all of my raw data files and order new coordinates for such merged file, soon. But I don't have it yet.

[Token]

Based on my Living DNA raw data, scaled:


,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
PeterskiLDs,0.135449,0.142174,0.065619,0.056848,0. 036007,0.021475,0.004935,0.006,0.005522,-0.01877,-0.004709,-0.005245,0.011744,0.011698,-0.005157,0.00053,0.002868,0.000887,-0.003897,-0.003252,-0.009358,-0.001978,0.007025,0.015785,-0.002634

I plan to merge all of my raw data files and order new coordinates for such merged file, soon. But I don't have it yet.

Distance to: PeterskiLDs
0.02810073 Czech
0.02892212 Polish
0.03072320 Slovakian
0.03317194 German_East
0.03390634 Ukrainian
0.04102662 Slovenian
0.04546856 German
0.05591938 Lithuanian
0.06609343 Russian_Kostroma

[Jana]

What I mean is that people who score some "East Euro", usually have "Poland" as their 1st top country under East Euro.



Or Polish ancestry is so widespread in Europe - all the Marcinkiewicz Project Belarusians are partially Polish, for example.

Croats, Bosniaks and Serbs score Poland most commonly but Romanians almost always get Ukraine I think. Not sure about Bulgarians. Hungarians also get Poland.

Few Greeks I saw with east european got Ukraine.

[Token]

Distance to: PeterskiLDs
0.02810073 Czech
0.02892212 Polish
0.03072320 Slovakian
0.03317194 German_East
0.03390634 Ukrainian
0.04102662 Slovenian
0.04546856 German
0.05591938 Lithuanian
0.06609343 Russian_Kostroma

^^^ Peterski is a Germano-Slavic mongrel, as expected.

[Mingle]

Yes, what Calculators?Eurogenes K13

Post one sample from west of the Vistula and one from east so we can compare them.

[Dick]

Distance to: PeterskiLDs
0.02810073 Czech
0.02892212 Polish
0.03072320 Slovakian
0.03317194 German_East
0.03390634 Ukrainian
0.04102662 Slovenian
0.04546856 German
0.05591938 Lithuanian
0.06609343 Russian_Kostroma

How did you do that?

[Cumansky]

Eurogenes K13

Post one sample from west of the Vistula and one from east so we can compare them.

I don't have many native from West of Vistula, you can see high North Atlantic in West of Vistula compared to East of Vistula. You can judge for yourself.

West of Vistula:

90703

East of Vistula:

90704
90705
90706

[Cumansky]

If you want more from West of Vistula ask Peterski he is native there

[Dawnbringer]

There was no Germans in West or East Galicia territory East of Vistula River. What German you think is there?

There were very few Germans in Galicia, but none is an overstatement.

A high estimate for the early 20th Century is .8%, although actual data indicates that it was more like .3%.

The proportion of German-speakers was much higher than the proportion of ethnic Germans at 2.7% in 1900, because many of these reported German-speakers were Yiddish-speaking ethnic Jews. Yiddish was not recognized by the Austro-Hungarian census, so most Galitzianers reported their second language Polish. A minority identified their Yiddish language as German for the census.

[Mingle]

East of Vistula:

90704
90705
90706

Which region are they from east of Vistula? If they're from Podlaskie or WM, then it won't mean much. I'm interested in Central-East and South-East Poland (Masovia, Lubin, etc). Anyways, they seem to be significantly different to the west of Vistula.

[XenophobicPrussian]

There were very few Germans in Galicia, but none is an overstatement.

A high estimate for the early 20th Century is .8%, although actual data indicates that it was more like .3%.

The proportion of German-speakers was much higher than the proportion of ethnic Germans at 2.7% in 1900, because many of these reported German-speakers were Yiddish-speaking ethnic Jews. Yiddish was not recognized by the Austro-Hungarian census, so most Galitzianers reported their second language Polish. A minority identified their Yiddish language as German for the census.
lol, you guys are looking at the wrong place and time period for German admixture. It's even highly unlikely Germans and Poles would mix during the 20th century anyway.

Quadians and Gepids were in Galicia, Vandals and Goths east of the Vistula. They eventually left the region but obviously not all of them would have. Southern Poland is actually more Germanic than N. Poland, save for Kashubians.

[Cumansky]

Which region are they from east of Vistula? If they're from Podlaskie or WM, then it won't mean much. I'm interested in Central-East and South-East Poland (Masovia, Lubin, etc). Anyways, they seem to be significantly different to the west of Vistula.

These are real Poles, from Ukraine. The first and third are Szlachta nobility from most Southeastern region of Polish Kingdom now Ivano-Frankivsk. The second is from Ternopil in Ukraine and is non nobility Polish person.

My nigga you are talking about Lubin, that is city in Lower Silesia my Mother was born and grew up 75km from Lubin. She is the second sample in East of Vistula they came from Ukraine 1947.

[Cumansky]

There were very few Germans in Galicia, but none is an overstatement.

A high estimate for the early 20th Century is .8%, although actual data indicates that it was more like .3%.

The proportion of German-speakers was much higher than the proportion of ethnic Germans at 2.7% in 1900, because many of these reported German-speakers were Yiddish-speaking ethnic Jews. Yiddish was not recognized by the Austro-Hungarian census, so most Galitzianers reported their second language Polish. A minority identified their Yiddish language as German for the census.

What were the 0.3% doing there? Shining my GGrandfather shoes, they were treated lower than Zyd

[Leto]

These are real Poles, from Ukraine. The first and third are Szlachta nobility from most Southeastern region of Polish Kingdom now Ivano-Frankivsk. The second is from Ternopil in Ukraine and is non nobility Polish person.

My nigga you are talking about Lubin, that is city in Lower Silesia my Mother was born and grew up 75km from Lubin. She is the second sample in East of Vistula they came from Ukraine 1947.
You are using imputed data, aren't you? Hence the 3% SSA and other weird stuff. In my view those are hardly representative samples.

[Dick]

You are using imputed data, aren't you? Hence the 3% SSA and other weird stuff. In my view those are hardly representative samples.

Rofl

[Cumansky]

You are using imputed data, aren't you? Hence the 3% SSA and other weird stuff. In my view those are hardly representative samples.

Every data is imputed, is called computer science. The second sample is my Mother, the other ones is random Polish people from Nobility Clans.

My personal result I purchased indicate same thing as my Mother result. My Mother is dead if I can purchase for her DNA test will be nice, but this technology we have now.

So what are you really getting at Mr. Red Sea?

[Peterski]

Southern Poland is actually more Germanic than N. Poland

Not really, Michał3141 is from Southern Poland near Cracow (south-east of the Vistula) and he has very eastern results.

North-West Poles (all areas west of the Vistula) are more Germanic.

Of course Suwałki Region (North-East Poland) is Baltic instead.

[Cumansky]

Leto is self hating Jew, that is Rofl

[XenophobicPrussian]

Not really, Michał3141 is from Southern Poland near Cracow (south-east of the Vistula) and he has very eastern results.

North-West Poles (all areas west of the Vistula) are more Germanic.

Of course Suwałki Region (North-East Poland) is Baltic instead.
Why are using 1 person as an example to prove your point? There's literally a south Polish average sample, it's more Germanic than the central Polish one. Germanic people get more affinity to southern Poles on K36 maps as well.

North-West Poles are Bydgoszcz, Poznan and Torun area Poles now btw aren't they? Aren't Pomeranians majority Ukrainian Polish post WW2 resettlement migrant descended now?

[Leto]

Every data is imputed, is called computer science. The second sample is my Mother, the other ones is random Polish people from Nobility Clans.

My personal result I purchased indicate same thing as my Mother result. My Mother is dead if I can purchase for her DNA test will be nice, but this technology we have now.

I bet if they could be tested, the results would've been pretty different. What you posted is based solely on your own results. I understand that's all you can possibly have (sorry for your loss) but it might not be accurate.

[Peterski]

Michał3141 is even partly Silesian but from Cieszyn (Austrian Silesia).

[Dawnbringer]

What were the 0.3% doing there? Shining my GGrandfather shoes, they were treated lower than Zyd

Most of the Germans who have settled in the region in the middle-ages were Polanized and assimilated into the Polish population in Galicia by the time the Polish-Lithuania Commonwealth was dissolved. Most of the German Galicians in the early-20th century were descendants from settlers who came shortly after Galicia first became a Crownland of the Austrian Empire in 1772. King Joseph II wanted to establish a greater German presence in the area, which is understandable for a new established province.

[Cumansky]

I bet if they could be tested, the results would've been pretty different. What you posted is based solely on your own results. I understand that's all you can possibly have (sorry for your loss) but it might not be accurate.

Ok Mr. Red Sea

[Leto]

Leto is self hating Jew, that is Rofl
I've avoided responding to you because of the amount of trolling and silly personal attacks. Lately I thought I could give you a second chance but looks like I shouldn't.
What does my ethnic background have to do with that particular remark of mine? Not to mention what you're saying is nonsense (I score 0% Jewish on all tests - FTDNA, MH, DNA Land, etc.).

[Peterski]

Why are using 1 person as an example to prove your point? There's literally a south Polish sample, it's more Germanic.

That sample is called South Polish because it plots to the south (closer to Southern Europe), not because it is geographically from Southern Poland.

It is also not more Germanic, IIRC it has lower "North_Sea" on K15 than Polish.


Germanic people get more affinity to southern Poles on K36 maps as well.

Some examples? Maybe South Germans are closer to South Poles, but not North Germans.

And it is due to higher amounts of southern admixtures.

[Cumansky]

Most of the Germans who have settled in the region in the middle-ages were Polanized and assimilated into the Polish population in Galicia by the time the Polish-Lithuania Commonwealth was dissolved. Most of the German Galicians in the early-20th century were descendants from settlers who came shortly after Galicia first became a Crownland of the Austrian Empire in 1772. King Joseph II wanted to establish a greater German presence in the area, which is understandable for a new established province.

I don't know what you are talking about man, you have to stop this

[Cumansky]

I've avoided responding to you because of the amount of trolling and silly personal attacks. Lately I thought I could give you a second chance but looks like I shouldn't.
What does my ethnic background have to do with that particular remark of mine? Not to mention what you're saying is nonsense (I score 0% Jewish on all tests - FTDNA, MH, DNA Land, etc.).

I don't care about you or where your ancestors ran away from, don't worry about me or making statements on Polish people

[Peterski]

Aren't Pomeranians majority Ukrainian Polish post WW2 resettlement migrant descended now?

It follows pre-WW2 border - on the German side of pre-war border most are resettlers, but not from Ukraine at all. Poles from Ukraine settled in Lower Silesia mainly. East Pomerania was mainly settled by people coming from right across the border (for example Kashubians from Polish pre-war areas settled in nearby German areas, and so on). And in West Pomerania (Szczecin etc.) it is a mix of everything but also very few from Ukraine. Much more are from various parts of Poland as well as Poles from Lithuania and Belarus.

[Dawnbringer]

I don't know what you are talking about man, you have to stop this

Early German settlers were largely Polanized by the end of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and were absorbed into the Polish population.

Later 18th century German settlers into Galicia and their descendants never underwent mass Polanization and were not absorbed into the greater population. They were expelled in the 1940s.

[Leto]

It follows pre-WW2 border - on the German side of pre-war border most are resettlers, but not from Ukraine at all. Poles from Ukraine settled in Lower Silesia mainly. East Pomerania was mainly settled by people coming from right across the border (for example Kashubians from Polish pre-war areas settled in nearby German areas, and so on). And in West Pomerania (Szczecin etc.) it is a mix of everything but also very few from Ukraine. Much more are from various parts of Poland as well as Poles from Lithuania and Belarus.
And Lubusz and Opole?

[XenophobicPrussian]

That sample is called South Polish because it plots to the south (closer to Southern Europe), not because it is geographically from Southern Poland.

It is also not more Germanic, IIRC it has lower "North_Sea" on K15 than Polish.



Some examples? Maybe South Germans are closer to South Poles, but not North Germans.

And it is due to higher amounts of southern admixtures.
That makes no sense, where is it from then?

It has lower North_Sea because it also has more southern stuff, but South_Polish has a higher ratio of North Sea to Baltic and Eastern Euro than Polish does.

K36 webrunner:


"sample": "PL_Central:Average",
"fit": 1.7019,
"Ukraine_Cherkassy": 81.67,
"Norway_south-east": 18.33,
"Lithuania": 0,
"closestDistances": [
"Ukraine_Cherkassy:average: 2.085548",
"Lithuania:average: 3.716062",
"Norway_south-east:average: 5.567557"


"sample": "PL_Subcarpathia:Average",
"fit": 1.2287,
"Ukraine_Cherkassy": 69.17,
"Norway_south-east": 30.83,
"Lithuania": 0,
"closestDistances": [
"Ukraine_Cherkassy:average: 2.345504",
"Lithuania:average: 3.847433",
"Norway_south-east:average: 4.673069"
(there's also a Malopolska sample but it won't work)

Those are from far south-east Poland, looks like Ukrainian Poles would only raise the Germanic admixture in western Poland, somehow.


"sample": "PL_Lublin:Average",
"fit": 1.6683,
"Ukraine_Cherkassy": 57.5,
"Lithuania": 22.5,
"Norway_south-east": 20,
"closestDistances": [
"Ukraine_Cherkassy:average: 2.120285",
"Lithuania:average: 3.113784",
"Norway_south-east:average: 5.617673"


"sample": "PL_Lublin:Average",
"fit": 1.6683,
"Ukraine_Cherkassy": 57.5,
"Lithuania": 22.5,
"Norway_south-east": 20,
"closestDistances": [
"Ukraine_Cherkassy:average: 2.120285",
"Lithuania:average: 3.113784",
"Norway_south-east:average: 5.617673"


"sample": "PL_Masovia:Average",
"fit": 0.7956,
"Ukraine_Cherkassy": 53.33,
"Lithuania": 31.67,
"Norway_south-east": 15,
"closestDistances": [
"Ukraine_Cherkassy:average: 1.381268",
"Lithuania:average: 2.348435",
"Norway_south-east:average: 5.827066"


"sample": "PL_Upper_Silesia:Average",
"fit": 1.1608,
"Ukraine_Cherkassy": 69.17,
"Norway_south-east": 30,
"Lithuania": 0.83,
"closestDistances": [
"Ukraine_Cherkassy:average: 2.276540",
"Lithuania:average: 3.756143",
"Norway_south-east:average: 4.694141"

Unfortunately Suwalki, Pomerania and Wielkopolska don't work.

Just realized mid post I need to add something to account for Celtic because K36 will pick Germanic over Balto-Slavic to account for it, Germanic isn't inflated anymore but still, southern Poland has the most except Kashubians.


"sample": "PL_Central:Average",
"fit": 1.4116,
"Ukraine_Cherkassy": 67.5,
"FR_South": 16.67,
"Lithuania": 11.67,
"Norway_south-east": 4.17,
"closestDistances": [
"Ukraine_Cherkassy:average: 2.085548",
"Lithuania:average: 3.716062",
"Norway_south-east:average: 5.567557",
"FR_South:average: 7.018126"


"sample": "PL_Subcarpathia:Average",
"fit": 0.9576,
"Ukraine_Cherkassy": 47.5,
"Lithuania": 19.17,
"Norway_south-east": 17.5,
"FR_South": 15.83,
"closestDistances": [
"Ukraine_Cherkassy:average: 2.345504",
"Lithuania:average: 3.847433",
"Norway_south-east:average: 4.673069",
"FR_South:average: 6.603492"


"sample": "PL_Masovia:Average",
"fit": 0.7929,
"Ukraine_Cherkassy": 50,
"Lithuania": 35,
"Norway_south-east": 12.5,
"FR_South": 2.5,
"closestDistances": [
"Ukraine_Cherkassy:average: 1.381268",
"Lithuania:average: 2.348435",
"Norway_south-east:average: 5.827066",
"FR_South:average: 8.172392"


"sample": "PL_Upper_Silesia:Average",
"fit": 0.9873,
"Ukraine_Cherkassy": 50,
"Lithuania": 18.33,
"Norway_south-east": 17.5,
"FR_South": 14.17,
"closestDistances": [
"Ukraine_Cherkassy:average: 2.276540",
"Lithuania:average: 3.756143",
"Norway_south-east:average: 4.694141",
"FR_South:average: 6.755637"

This should be obvious, Slovakia is more Germanic than Poland(both in y-dna and autosmal), naturally southern Poland would be as well. Gepids/Quiadians probably didn't have to flee en masse from the Huns unlike Germanics in the rest of Poland because of the mountains preventing Hun cavalry being effective.

[Peterski]

North-West Poles are Bydgoszcz, Poznan and Torun area Poles now btw aren't they? Aren't Pomeranians majority Ukrainian Polish post WW2 resettlement migrant descended now?

1950 census data about areas bordering with pre-war Polish Corridor. As you can see only 10% to 25% (depending on county) in these areas were Poles from Kresy - and mostly from Lithuania and Belarus (those from Ukraine went to Southern Poland):

Data by county (for blue-coloured areas POM1-3):

https://i.imgur.com/F9D88Cn.png

https://i.imgur.com/M5VzBC6.png

^^^ Legend:

https://i.imgur.com/wa3Du7U.png

[XenophobicPrussian]

Forgot to post Kashubians.


"sample": "PL_Kashubians:Average",
"fit": 0.7622,
"Lithuania": 33.33,
"Ukraine_Cherkassy": 31.67,
"Norway_south-east": 27.5,
"FR_South": 7.5,
"closestDistances": [
"Ukraine_Cherkassy:average: 2.372559",
"Lithuania:average: 3.416140",
"Norway_south-east:average: 4.462378",
"FR_South:average: 7.186304"

[Leto]

Forgot to post Kashubians.
What about Czechs and Slovaks? Add them too please.

[Peterski]

Just realized mid post I need to add something to account for Celtic because K36 will pick Germanic over Balto-Slavic to account for it (...)

This should be obvious, Slovakia is more Germanic than Poland (both in y-dna and autosmal), naturally southern Poland would be as well.

Most of western admixture in Czechia and Slovakia is Celtic, not Germanic. Here is a model for Czechs that East German user posted on Anthrogenica. He used French Swiss as a proxy for Celtic (or Pre-Germanic Roman borderland), Niedersachsen for Germanic, and Poland Lublin for Slavic. As you can see Czechs score much more French Swiss than Niedersachsen (the same is true for Slovaks):

https://i.imgur.com/YuSlAYe.jpg

BTW French Swiss are very close to Central French (which you also claimed is a good proxy for Gauls).

[Cumansky]

Early German settlers were largely Polanized by the end of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and were absorbed into the Polish population.

Later 18th century German settlers into Galicia and their descendants never underwent mass Polanization and were not absorbed into the greater population. They were expelled in the 1940s.

You have to talk in specific, in the areas around Poland southern border with Romania, in around 13-14 Century was Transylvanian Saxons East Germanic migration this "Saxons" were still this time warlike tribe. Already there was Hungarian tribes, Balto Slavic tribes and Vlah tribes native of the region descending of Bulgarian Empire. The purpose defending Hungary in Northeastern Carpathians from quick assault Steppe invaders Tatars, Cumans, etc. They eventually assamilated into these peoples until now. More Germanic Saxons continued to migrant mostly Romania for business and trading job for few more century.

There is no recent Swabian people East of Vistula I am aware.

[Leto]

Most of western admixture in Czechia and Slovakia is Celtic, not Germanic. Here is a model for Czechs that German user posted on Anthrogenica. He used French Swiss as a proxy for Celtic (or Pre-Germanic Roman borderland), Niedersachsen for Germanic, and Poland Lublin for Slavic. As you can see Czechs score much more French Swiss than Niedersachsen (the same for Slovaks):

https://i.imgur.com/YuSlAYe.jpg

BTW French Swiss are very close to Central French (which you also claimed is a good proxy for Gauls).
Slovaks would prolly be 70-75% Lublin in that run.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Most of western admixture in Czechia and Slovakia is Celtic, not Germanic. Here is a model for Czechs that German user posted on Anthrogenica. He used French Swiss as a proxy for Celtic (or Pre-Germanic Roman borderland), Niedersachsen for Germanic, and Poland Lublin for Slavic. As you can see Czechs score much more French Swiss than Niedersachsen (the same for Slovaks):

https://i.imgur.com/YuSlAYe.jpg
1) That has nothing to do with what we're talking about
2)


"sample": "PL_Central:Average",
"fit": 1.8369,
"PL_Lublin": 91.67,
"FR_Swiss": 5,
"Niedersachsen": 3.33,
"closestDistances": [



"sample": "PL_Subcarpathia:Average",
"fit": 1.0833,
"PL_Lublin": 80.83,
"Niedersachsen": 11.67,
"FR_Swiss": 7.5,



"sample": "PL_Masovia:Average",
"fit": 1.4044,
"PL_Lublin": 100,
"FR_Swiss": 0,
"Niedersachsen": 0,


"sample": "PL_Upper_Silesia:Average",
"fit": 1.0926,
"PL_Lublin": 81.67,
"Niedersachsen": 14.17,
"FR_Swiss": 4.17,

Southern Poland still has more Germanic.

3) Horrible model, why would French Swiss be a good proxy for Celts? They literally have 40% Germanic Y-DNA and can be modelled as significantly Germanic. Poles from Lublin is also a horrible proxy for the original Slavs.

[Peterski]

This PL_Central average is based on only 2 or 3 samples though, as far as I know.

Including mlukas's mother... and his family is clearly eastern-shifted / atypical.


They literally have 40% Germanic Y-DNA

Source?

[Cumansky]

Peterski has high Germanic he is Northwest Pole

[Cumansky]

And those models are trash

[Peterski]

Southern Poland still has more Germanic.

You were not using PL_South but PL_Subcarpathia. Use PL_South which is geographically to the west of Subcarpathia but is much more eastern-shifted genetically.

And Upper Silesia is located west of the Vistula.

[XenophobicPrussian]

This PL_Central average is based on only 2 or 3 samples though, as far as I know.

Including mlukas's mother... and his family is clearly eastern-shifted / atypical.


They literally have 40% Germanic Y-DNA

Source?
https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/2a455fce-cd74-4375-9833-ba3072ef7b67/d8fztsi-2a9c8929-34f3-4751-946b-fd64d2a7d5b3.png/v1/fill/w_1150,h_695,q_70,strp/germanic_y_dna_combined_haplogroups_by_arminius187 1_d8fztsi-pre.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9 .eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZ DQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTg yMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7Imhla WdodCI6Ijw9MzMzNiIsInBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzJhNDU1ZmNlLWN kNzQtNDM3NS05ODMzLWJhMzA3MmVmN2I2N1wvZDhmenRzaS0yY TljODkyOS0zNGYzLTQ3NTEtOTQ2Yi1mZDY0ZDJhN2Q1YjMucG5 nIiwid2lkdGgiOiI8PTU1MTkifV1dLCJhdWQiOlsidXJuOnNlc nZpY2U6aW1hZ2Uub3BlcmF0aW9ucyJdfQ.jUEHOIG3rD4IV_hj aIbdtsvBqCnrpOwytf-BwxwEdBE

[Leto]

I think Czechs & Slovaks should rather be modeled as a Belarus-Dutch-Romanian mix (Slavic-Germanic-Balkanic).

[Peterski]

https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/f/2a455fce-cd74-4375-9833-ba3072ef7b67/d8fztsi-2a9c8929-34f3-4751-946b-fd64d2a7d5b3.png/v1/fill/w_1150,h_695,q_70,strp/germanic_y_dna_combined_haplogroups_by_arminius187 1_d8fztsi-pre.jpg?token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9 .eyJzdWIiOiJ1cm46YXBwOjdlMGQxODg5ODIyNjQzNzNhNWYwZ DQxNWVhMGQyNmUwIiwiaXNzIjoidXJuOmFwcDo3ZTBkMTg4OTg yMjY0MzczYTVmMGQ0MTVlYTBkMjZlMCIsIm9iaiI6W1t7Imhla WdodCI6Ijw9MzMzNiIsInBhdGgiOiJcL2ZcLzJhNDU1ZmNlLWN kNzQtNDM3NS05ODMzLWJhMzA3MmVmN2I2N1wvZDhmenRzaS0yY TljODkyOS0zNGYzLTQ3NTEtOTQ2Yi1mZDY0ZDJhN2Q1YjMucG5 nIiwid2lkdGgiOiI8PTU1MTkifV1dLCJhdWQiOlsidXJuOnNlc nZpY2U6aW1hZ2Uub3BlcmF0aW9ucyJdfQ.jUEHOIG3rD4IV_hj aIbdtsvBqCnrpOwytf-BwxwEdBE

Unreliable source.

BTW that PL_Subcarpathia sample on K36 is unusually western-shifted because it is made at least partially of cherry-picked Polonized descendants of Forest Germans:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walddeutsche

Use PL_South instead which represents Lesser Poland Voivodeship (more or less), or at least it does not include Walddeutsche descendants.

[Dawnbringer]

You have to talk in specific, in the areas around Poland southern border with Romania, in around 13-14 Century was Transylvanian Saxons East Germanic migration this "Saxons" were still this time warlike tribe. Already there was Hungarian tribes, Balto Slavic tribes and Vlah tribes native of the region descending of Bulgarian Empire. The purpose defending Hungary in Northeastern Carpathians from quick assault Steppe invaders Tatars, Cumans, etc. They eventually assamilated into these peoples until now. More Germanic Saxons continued to migrant mostly Romania for business and trading job for few more century.

There is no recent Swabian people East of Vistula I am aware.

I already told you who I‘m talking about. Austria acquired Galicia in 1772 and Emperor Joseph II encouraged ethnic Germans to settle in the predominantly Slavic province. Over 3,200 families settled in Galicia. The descendants of these settlers represent the vast majority of the tiny German minority in Galicia in the 19th century and early 20th Century. They never assimilated all the way until expulsion.

Read more about these late German settlers here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephine_colonization

My point here is that any German admixture in Galician Poles Dates from the time of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth or before. As you said there was strong hostility between Slavs and Germans in the time when Galicia was a province of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire.

[Peterski]

Southern Poland still has more Germanic.

Nope, you are not using Southern Poland but Subcarpathia (SE Poland).

In mlukas's PCA, Subcarpathia (South-East Poland) is more Germanic than South Poland; and West Ukraine is also more Germanic than South & Central Poland:

Subcarpathia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podkarpackie_Voivodeship

South Poland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesser_Poland_Voivodeship

https://i.imgur.com/YOrYykP.png

[Cumansky]

I already told you who I‘m talking about. Austria acquired Galicia in 1772 and King Joseph II encouraged ethnic Germans to settle in the predominantly Slavic province. Over 3,200 families settled in Galicia. These people represent the vast majority of the tiny German minority in Galicia in the 19th century and early 20th Century. They never assimilated all the way until expulsion.

Read more about these late German settlers here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephine_colonization

My point here is that any German admixture in Galician Poles Dates from the time of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth or before. As you said there was strong hostility between Slavs and Germans in the time when Galicia was a province of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire.

That has to be made clear that mixing was majority in middle ages with East Germanics in Carpathian region, before any German state existed, and these nomad warlike East Germanic tribes assamilated proceeding important duty they had in Hungarian Empire because was no Austrian first was only Hungarian Empire, Kingdom of Poland and vassal Moldavia.

[Cumansky]

Nope, you are not using Southern Poland but Subcarpathia (SE Poland).

In mlukas's PCA, Subcarpathia (South-East Poland) is more Germanic than South Poland; and West Ukraine is also more Germanic than South & Central Poland:

Subcarpathia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podkarpackie_Voivodeship

South Poland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesser_Poland_Voivodeship

https://i.imgur.com/YOrYykP.png

I wonder what samples he used for West Ukraine that he ended up with West Ukrainian average being more western-shifted than South and Central Poland.

What you get in that DNA Tribes Table 1, 2

[Cumansky]

Pole West of Vistula: 90710

Pole East of Vistula: 90711

[Peterski]

And Lubusz and Opole?

I was talking about Pomerania only in that previous post you quoted.

In Opole (GSL1, OPO1) mostly local population, in Lubusz a mix from Kresy and from Poznan / Wielkopolska (light blue):

https://i.imgur.com/6z9VQh1.png

^^^ Map of GSL1 and OPO1 counties:

https://i.imgur.com/XyYQr08.png

[Dawnbringer]

That has to be made clear that mixing was majority in middle ages with East Germanics in Carpathian region, before any German state existed, and these nomad warlike East Germanic tribes assamilated proceeding important duty they had in Hungarian Empire because was no Austrian first was only Hungarian Empire, Kingdom of Poland and vassal Moldavia.

Yes, only a minority of the Germanic admixture in Galician Poles is from assimilated descendants of Ostsiedlung settlers.

Most of it comes from Vandals and Goths, and a much smaller proportion from descendants of Ostsiedlung settlers who had assimilated into the Polish people by the dissolution of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

The Vandal and Gothic admixture however comes from before Poland or Hungary was a state. Vandals and Goths themselves were never Slavicized, but assimilated into other groups who were Slavicized.

[Cumansky]

Yes, only a minority of the Germanic admixture in Galician Poles is from assimilated descendants of Ostsiedlung settlers.

Most of it comes from Vandals and Goths, and a much smaller number of descendants of Ostsiedlung settlers who had assimilated into the Polish people by the dissolution of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth.

The Vandal and Gothic admixture however comes from before Poland or Hungary was a state. Vandals themselves were never Slavicized, but assimilated into other groups who were Slavicized.

No no, not true the Goths or Vandals were recorded to be around Carpathian in time of Avars and First Bulgarian Empire but soon their genetic will be rarely found. You will have to go further west to find their nearest descendants, maybe even south.

As you can see in DNA Tribes Pole from Western Poland will score 42% Northwest European admixture, Pole from Carpathians will score only 14.6%

[Dawnbringer]

No no, not true the Goths or Vandals were recorded to be around Carpathian in time of Avars and First Bulgarian Empire but soon their genetic will be rarely found. You will have to go further west to find their nearest descendants, maybe even south.

As you can see in DNA Tribes Pole from Western Poland will score 42% Northwest European admixture, Pole from Carpathians will score only 14.6%

Would you agree that the Germanic admixture in Galician Poles mostly comes from Goths and Vandals who either directly mixed with Slavs or mixed with non-Slavs that were Slavicized? know that Galician Poles have less Germanic admixture than Western Poles, but I‘m talking about the Germanic admixture they do have.

In the 2nd to 5th centuries both Goths and Vandals inhabited what is today Galicia along with several non-Germanic groups who became Slavicized like Sarmatians.

I‘m just curious about Galicia.

[Loki]

There was no Germans in West or East Galicia territory East of Vistula River. What German you think is there?

Forgotten about the Goths already? Also later on the area east of the Vistula became East Prussia, and received loads of German settlers.

[Cumansky]

Would you agree that the Germanic admixture in Galician Poles mostly comes from Goths and Vandals who either directly mixed with Slavs or mixed with non-Slavs that were Slavicized? know that Galician Poles have less Germanic admixture than Western Poles, but I‘m talking about the Germanic admixture they do have.

In the 2nd to 5th centuries both Goths and Vandals inhabited what is today Galicia along with several non-Germanic groups who became Slavicized like Sarmatians.

I‘m just curious about Galicia.

Regarding Galicia Volhynia Principality it was once vassal to Kievan Rus, with Kyiv Principality directly to the east. In 1349 Galicia Volhynia Principality was annexed by Poland. It remain in possession of Poland until 1947 even as Autonomous Republic in 123 year Habsburg rule.

There is a low amount of a Northwest European admixture in this region you can see this East Galicia person has 14.6%. As stated majority is from middle age Transylvanian Saxons. As the Balto Slavic people of Galicia Volhynia Principality were previously descended from the Kievan Rus, there is good chance these Galicia Volhynia Balto Slavs had previously mingle with people that possess high amount of mixed Finnic Scandinavian admixture from within the Kievan Rus. It can be confirmed with Viking samples in Global 25 and historical records of nobility of Galicia Volhynia Principality taking wives who are daughters of nobility from Kievan Rus. Is still very low this Germanic admixture compare with majority of Europe, Eastern Germanic tribes of Western Europe in this time were loosely organized, Poland was very powerful in this time.

[Cumansky]

Forgotten about the Goths already? Also later on the area east of the Vistula became East Prussia, and received loads of German settlers.

Northwest Poland yes in Prussia time, I am discuss Southeast here Galicia Volhynia

[Lucas]

Nope, you are not using Southern Poland but Subcarpathia (SE Poland).

In mlukas's PCA, Subcarpathia (South-East Poland) is more Germanic than South Poland; and West Ukraine is also more Germanic than South & Central Poland:

Subcarpathia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Podkarpackie_Voivodeship

South Poland: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesser_Poland_Voivodeship

https://i.imgur.com/YOrYykP.png

This is older model, I recently updated Russian and Ukrainian references (although not UKR_Western).
Also I prefer CA (Correspondence Analysis) plot as it is (nearly) perfectly in line with European geography, and PCA not so much.

Yes Subcarpathia is western shifted still, yes because of polonized Walddeutsches but now there are Poles, and more over very "patriotic" (PIS party stronghold) :) Better don't tell them there are of German extraction...

https://i.imgur.com/buVOZJy.png

[Cumansky]

This is older model, I recently updated Russian and Ukrainian references (although not UKR_Western).
Also I prefer CA (Correspondence Analysis) plot as it is (nearly) perfectly in line with European geography, and PCA not so much.

Yes Subcarpathia is western shifted still, yes because of polonized Walddeutchse but now there are Poles, and more over very "patriotic" (PIS party stronghold) :)

https://i.imgur.com/buVOZJy.png

East Galicia in low Germanic admixtures, what is even that PL_Subcarpathia sample? Do you even know where you got it, West Galicia?

[Lucas]

East Galicia in low Germanic admixtures, what is even that PL_Subcarpathia sample? Do you even know where you got it, West Galicia?

There are Polish kits (18) with GEDCOM from podkarpackie voyvodship. Any supposed Subcarpathia kit without Gedcom was removed from average months ago.

[Cumansky]

There are Polish kits (17) with GEDCOM from podkarpackie voyvodship. Any supposed Subcarpathia kit without Gedcom was removed form average.

Interesting but they have different genetic legacy than Poles from Ukraine. There is many reasons for a sample to plot right or left in PCA that is next thing

[Lucas]

Interesting but they have different genetic legacy than Poles from Ukraine. There is many reasons for a sample to plot right or left in PCA that is next thing

Yes, I read in Czekanowski [1930] that many Poles lived in western Ukraine was colonists not directly from the west (Subcarpathia) but from NW, so from Masovia through Lubelskie.

[SharpFork]

This is older model, I recently updated Russian and Ukrainian references (although not UKR_Western).
Also I prefer CA (Correspondence Analysis) plot as it is (nearly) perfectly in line with European geography, and PCA not so much.

Yes Subcarpathia is western shifted still, yes because of polonized Walddeutsches but now there are Poles, and more over very "patriotic" (PIS party stronghold) :) Better don't tell them there are of German extraction...

https://i.imgur.com/buVOZJy.png
Could you link the full image? I'm curious what's beyond.

[Lucas]

Could you link the full image? I'm curious what's beyond.


Just schematic Euro map...

https://i.imgur.com/jTFAEpV.png

[Cumansky]

Yes, I read in Czekanowski [1930] that many Poles lived in western Ukraine was colonists not directly from the west (Subcarpathia) but from NW, so from Masovia through Lubelskie.

Here is 23andme for Southeast Galicia Pole from Ivano-Frankivsk with some noble origin. What do you think where his ancestors origin from?

90714
90715
90716
90718
90717
90719
90720
90721

[SharpFork]

Just schematic Euro map...

https://i.imgur.com/jTFAEpV.png

Is there a thread where to discuss this? I wonder what is going on in the Iberian cluster.

[Cumansky]

From Ivano-Frankivsk:

90722

[Cumansky]

This person is descended from House of Dragos, thru House of Sas. East Galicia Poles from Ivano-Frankivsk noble origin and proper history just read:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Dragoș

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sas_coat_of_arms

See also:

Sas II Coat of Arms
Polish heraldry
Heraldic family
Sarmatism
List of rulers of Moldavia
Olesko Castle
History of Transylvania
History of Maramureș
Lands of the Crown of Saint Stephen
Ruthenian nobility
Lithuanian nobility
Western Ukrainian nobility

[Lucas]

Is there a thread where to discuss this? I wonder what is going on in the Iberian cluster.

Offtop but last.

Iberian references need Maghreb to be positioned properly. But it would squeeze whole Europe on plot.

So here is PCA only with Iberian, Maghreb and few Italian samples (and one Southern France reference).
Central Spain references are somewhat shifted in many directions as you see. Maybe 3D plot would show it better.

https://i.imgur.com/PKk3lzM.png

[Peterski]

(...)

https://i.imgur.com/buVOZJy.png

Did you update PL_Central or is the difference due to using CA instead of PCA? Now PL_Central looks much more reasonable than before. But remember how you used to disagree with me and argue that they are "eastern"...

[Figaro]

https://media.tenor.com/images/ce01ecaf5a252b3b2b0425817adab4e1/tenor.gif

This sent me into a stoned giggle fit.

[MagnusDark]

Just schematic Euro map...

https://i.imgur.com/jTFAEpV.png

What calculated results do you use for this chart? could you put me on there to see how I plot? I can send you whatever you need.

[MagnusDark]

Just schematic Euro map...

https://i.imgur.com/jTFAEpV.png

What calculated results do you use for this plot? could you put me on there to see how I plot? I can send you whatever you need.

[Roy]

I don't think so, Slavs look all the same.

Nope.

[Roy]

Could be, rivers as big as that used to be genetic boudaries in the past. This makes sense to me.

It can even take a river as "small" as this one to somewhat seperate people from each other - this one is called Pilica. It runs through Central Poland.

https://stowarzyszenie21.pl/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/rzekapilica.jpg

My great-grandmother (born in 1900) at least according to my grandma, used to divide people for those ''przed Pilicą'' in front of Pilica & za Pilicą - past Pilica.
She lived in front of the river what is called Pilica and on those who are past it (the rest of the people). The river itself marks a border between two historical Polish regions so it makes more sense. She was from Ziemia Łęczycka.

https://pl-static.z-dn.net/files/df5/0daf16d0b73eb5cd066070107fb32291.jpg

https://www.wykop.pl/cdn/c3201142/comment_v5acHjyfGxQfoPhjBuJgF5VKlnTI02BV.jpg

https://histmag.org/grafika/2016_articles/reg_hist_2.jpg

[TheForeigner]

I think Poles with ancestry from areas just to the east of the Vistula have slightly different results than Poles with ancestry from areas just to the west of the Vistula:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4b/Vistula_river_map.png/556px-Vistula_river_map.png

But much of the territory to the west of the Vistula was settled by Poles from western parts of Ukraine and Belarus, who were expelled from there after ww2 and who came to lands newly acquired by Poland from Germany, where the native German population was also expelled. Wouldn't these millions of eastern Poles have been descended from Poles that came from east of the Vistula, in Poland proper, back in the days of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth?

[Peterski]

But much of the territory to the west of the Vistula was settled by Poles from western parts of Ukraine and Belarus, who were expelled from there after ww2 and who came to lands newly acquired by Poland from Germany, where the native German population was also expelled. Wouldn't these millions of eastern Poles have been descended from Poles that came from east of the Vistula, in Poland proper, back in the days of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth?

Where?

All areas located just west of the Vistula were firmly Polish-majority already before WW2 (and before WW1).

See the map showing ethnic Poles by county ca. year 1900:

https://i.redd.it/c2kk2jry4re11.png

Moreover, I specifically mentioned people who have ancestry from areas just west and just east of the river.

Not people who live today either west or east of the river.

[TheForeigner]

Where?

All areas located just west of the Vistula were firmly Polish-majority already before WW2 (and before WW1).

See the map showing ethnic Poles by county ca. year 1900:

https://i.redd.it/c2kk2jry4re11.png

Moreover, I specifically mentioned people who have ancestry from areas just west and just east of the river.

Not people who live today either west or east of the river.

I meant German Lower and Upper Silesia, Pomerania and other areas gained from Germany after ww2, but I misunderstood what you meant about people with ancestry east or west of the Vistula.

[Peterski]

I meant German Lower and Upper Silesia

Nope. Upper Silesia was not affected by population movements too much.

West (German) Upper Silesia according to 1950 census had 789,716 autochthons (pre-war citizens of Germany) out of 1,333,246 inhabitants.

Most of the population there was not deported but were instead granted Polish citizenship after national verification (recognizing them as Poles):

https://i.imgur.com/cT0222d.png

See this Polish Newsreel from 1945:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFCsnWALq9E

Translation:

"(...) After centuries of foreign rule, our western borders have once again returned to the line of Odra [Oder] and Nysa [Neisse] rivers. Our western lands, liberated at the cost of many Polish lifes, are today under guard of the ones, who have won them over. Old towers, coats of arms, villages and cemeteries have remained imperishable evidences of the Polishness of these lands. [close-up shots at some tombstones] A great work requires great sacrifices and great efforts. A great sacrifice of blood has already been made by the Polish Nation, but now we need to put into this work great endeavours and labor. (...) Thousands of Germans had to go back to where their grandparents came from. Not a single inscription in German is making our streets ugly anymore. These lands have been populated once again by Polish people. The government gave them farms, houses and jobs. They came from everywhere - from labor camps and death camps in Germany, from Central Poland, and from lands to the east of the Bug River. They came to stay here forever, to farm abandoned fields, to rebuild destroyed cities, to make damaged factories working again. There are also the ones who were born here: autochthonous West Poles, whose entire generations have managed to preserve their Polishness here under German rule. (...)"

[Ülev]

:picard2:

[Peterski]

Interestingly one of my father's aunts (wife of his uncle, not related by blood) was an autochthon from Kalsko (Kalzig):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalsko

She was one of those 15 thousand autochthons from East Brandenburg who were granted Polish citizenship after WW2.


where the native German population
Also later on the area east of the Vistula became East Prussia, and received loads of German settlers.

Many were Germanized Poles, for example this guy (who has now rediscovered his Polish roots and returned back to East Prussia):

https://i.imgur.com/Gdd4pFY.png

[Roy]

Peterski, can you elucidate us more on that topic? :coffee:

[Genetic]

I think that's a good theory and it makes sense.

[rothaer]

There are Polish kits (18) with GEDCOM from podkarpackie voyvodship. Any supposed Subcarpathia kit without Gedcom was removed from average months ago.

Interesting. I always thought PL_Subcarpathia values were a non-representative selection. Most Germans regularly get a slightly elevated similarity with PL_Subcarpathia in the LM Genetics correlation map.

91320

[rothaer]

...

As for the subject of the thread:

So there basically is a genetic cline within (original) Polish area from east to west. (This is not really unexpected.) This makes areas left of the Vistula river different to areas right of the Vistula river. But this would also apply to ANY north-south line drawn. It does NOT yet induce the Vistula river itself to be a genetic border.

Is there any indication for that?

[rothaer]

Slovaks would prolly be 70-75% Lublin in that run.

Here´s a run for amongst others Slovakia.

91321

(It´s from the Eurogenes K36 (Lukasz PCA) nMonte Runner

http://185.144.156.77:3000/eurogenesK36pca.html?fbclid=IwAR2lM2UnXd6frW_-XhmeODZZWemT1tsZHBr23mfNIQYhTbpDxLDF-hDco5o

which imo in a resonable way approximates the proportions of proto Slavic and Germanic (AD 1) within a Central European area, geographically roughly limited by Niedersachsen, PL Lublin and the southern border of the Alps.
This model has just three components:

- Niedersachsen as a proxy for Germanic in AD 1.
- PL_Lublin as a proxy for proto Slavic.
- FR_Swiss as a proxy for „southern stuff“, which does also work good in eastern part of the mentioned application area. It´s expressly NOT just about Celts.)

[Leto]

Here´s a run for amongst others Slovakia.

91321 (How do I get the pic to show up automatically?)

(It´s from the Eurogenes K36 (Lukasz PCA) nMonte Runner

http://185.144.156.77:3000/eurogenesK36pca.html?fbclid=IwAR2lM2UnXd6frW_-XhmeODZZWemT1tsZHBr23mfNIQYhTbpDxLDF-hDco5o

which imo in a resonable way approximates the proportions of proto Slavic and Germanic (AD 1) within a Central European area, geographically roughly limited by Niedersachsen, PL Lublin and the southern border of the Alps.
This model has just three components:

- Niedersachsen as a proxy for Germanic in AD 1.
- PL_Lublin as a proxy for proto Slavic.
- FR_Swiss as a proxy for „southern stuff“, which does also work good in eastern part of the mentioned application area. It´s expressly NOT just about Celts.)
Use this tag for images.

Why Swiss French and not Bergamo Italy or may even Tuscany?

[rothaer]

Horrible model, why would French Swiss be a good proxy for Celts? They literally have 40% Germanic Y-DNA and can be modelled as significantly Germanic. Poles from Lublin is also a horrible proxy for the original Slavs.

How would the model be better? Suggestions are welcome.

FR_Swiss is not for Celts, but it seems to catch everything south of AD 1 Germanics and proto Slavs in a resonable proportion. "40% Germanic": One has to distinguish late migration period Germanic from the what was Germanic prior to expansion in later Germania magna. Within that expansion in a first step all population in vast prior Celtic areas within later Germania magna were assimilated.

[rothaer]

Use this tag for images.

Why Swiss French and not Bergamo Italy or may even Tuscany?

Because that would force a bigger - and imo too big - proportion to the other two components. Regarding the question what would be the correct amount I had a look for the original Germanic areas per AD 1 and these scoring zero of that "southern stuff", but in Germanic expansion area within Germania magna there should a proportion of that component immediately begin to appear. FR_Swiss was just what met these requirements. And fortunately it seems also to work well in the east. Of course this is experimental.

(Pic does also not show up with that tag. I just tried. Maybe because I´m beneath 10 Posts.)

[SharpFork]

Because that would force a bigger - and imo too big - proportion to the other two components. Regarding the question what would be the correct amount I had a look for the original Germanic areas per AD 1 and these scoring zero of that "southern stuff", but in Germanic expansion area within Germania magna there should a proportion of that component immediately begin to appear. FR_Swiss was just what met these requirements. And fortunately it seems also to work well in the east. Of course this is experimental.

(Pic does also not show up with that tag. I just tried. Maybe because I´m beneath 10 Posts.)

Swiss French would catch a lot of Germanic too, Swiss French on Lukasz pca is closer to southern German speakign region than it is to any other Romance speaking ones. It is not a huge change and it's not perfect either but I'd use Aosta valley and and Provence instead. Or maybe we should just see where the Gaulish samples we have(Empures, Bylany) would fall and use those populations, I'm not sure how to do that myself.

[rothaer]

Swiss French would catch a lot of Germanic too, Swiss French on Lukasz pca is closer to southern German speakign region than it is to any other Romance speaking ones. It is not a huge change and it's not perfect either but I'd use Aosta valley and and Provence instead. Or maybe we should just see where the Gaulish samples we have(Empures, Bylany) would fall and use those populations, I'm not sure how to do that myself.

Using IT_Aosta forces Tirol and FR_Swiss to score notable PL_Lublin, which is definitively not correct...

91372

Btw I don´t think there is any notable Germanic (per 1 AD!!) in FR_Swiss.

[Peterski]

Another river, Noteć/Netze, was an ethnic border (Polish-speaking to the south and east, German-speaking to the north and west) in early 1900s:

Fragment from Jakob Spett's map (green = Polish-speaking majority):

I highlighted the course of the Noteć/Netze river with thick blue line:

https://i.imgur.com/OczWtvT.png

^^^
It also became the political border between Poland-Germany after 1918 (Wieleń, Czarnków, Walkowice from the map above became border towns):

Red line = pre-1939 Polish border (here it was along the Noteć River):

https://i.imgur.com/7ncKIM3.png

Although if you go back to 1772 (before the Partitions), large areas to the north and to the west of the Netze were also parts of Poland at that time.

[rothaer]

Another river, Noteć/Netze, was an ethnic border (Polish-speaking to the south and east, German-speaking to the north and west) in early 1900s:

Fragment from Jakob Spett's map (green = Polish-speaking majority):

I highlighted the course of the Noteć/Netze river with thick blue line:

https://i.imgur.com/OczWtvT.png

^^^
It also became the political border between Poland-Germany after 1918 (Wieleń, Czarnków, Walkowice from the map above became border towns):

Red line = pre-1939 Polish border (here it was along the Noteć River):

https://i.imgur.com/7ncKIM3.png

Although if you go back to 1772 (before the Partitions), large areas to the north and to the west of the Netze were also parts of Poland at that time.

Yes. Btw. Behle just east of Schönlanke is the place of the oldest known patrilinear ancestor of my ex-wife. He went to Czarnikau in 1811 and married a German girl, which was just 14 or 15 years old, in a catholic church, before they emigrated to Bessarabia in 1812. It makes the impression the parents were not involved... In Bessarabia they were only known as protestants. In 1811 also Behle was neatly within the napoleonic Duchy of Warsaw. In 1815 it became Prussia again.

[Ülev]

the same winter up to Vistula river - coincidence? I don't think so

click to see the weather map (https://www.accuweather.com/en/weather-news/accuweathers-2019-2020-europe-winter-forecast/601922?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_term=&utm_content=&utm_campaign=breakingweather)

[Roy]

If it is then it has to be traced all the way to early middle ages period.