Who is more north shifted, Irish or Scottish ?

[Jana]

And how do Welsh compare ?

[Seya]

Aren’t they all the same? :D

[Jana]

Aren’t they all the same? :D

Very similar yes. I think there are sublime differences.
I think lowland Scots are closer to Northern English and some Scottish Islands like Orkney, Shetland have increased Norse admixture.

[farke1]

Very similar yes. I think there are sublime differences.
I think lowland Scots are closer to Northern English and some Scottish Islands like Orkney, Shetland have increased Norse admixture.
Pretty much this, I'd say. :) As for the Welsh, I think they have the least Germanic/Norse admixture of all three populations and generally resemble the Cornish more than Irish or Scots, although I don't know how they plot on calculators. Someone more knowledgeable will inevitably come in and correct me if I'm wrong (looking at Grace or Creoda primarily here).

[Blondie]

Same

[21993]

Scottish?

[PaleoEuropean]

Scotland was settled by Frisians, Danes, Norwegians, Saxons and Normans. Far more Germanic.

[Jana]

Scotland was settled by Frisians, Danes, Norwegians, Saxons and Normans. Far more Germanic.

You sure ? Germanic admixture doesn't equal more northern shift. North English are not that Germanic, and they cluster more north than SE English (most Anglo-Saxon admixed in the Isles) as far as I know.

[Jana]

Pretty much this, I'd say. :) As for the Welsh, I think they have the least Germanic/Norse admixture of all three populations and generally resemble the Cornish more than Irish or Scots, although I don't know how they plot on calculators. Someone more knowledgeable will inevitably come in and correct me if I'm wrong (looking at Grace or Creoda primarily here).

Yeah, I also speculate Welsh should be closest to Cornish but not sure, never seen many results from there.

[farke1]

Yeah, I also speculate Welsh should be closest to Cornish but not sure, never seen many results from there.
Here's a Welsh Eurogenes K15 result:

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 36.39
2 Atlantic 24.92
3 West_Med 13.33
4 Baltic 11.45
5 Eastern_Euro 7.54
6 South_Asian 2.06
7 West_Asian 1.87
8 East_Med 0.91
9 Amerindian 0.91
10 Red_Sea 0.5
11 Northeast_African 0.1
Basically seems to be similar to Irish and Scottish results but with lower Baltic and higher West Med. I'll try and find more Welsh GEDMatch kit numbers and update this post if so.



You sure ? Germanic admixture doesn't equal more northern shift. North English are not that Germanic, and they cluster more north than SE English (most Anglo-Saxon admixed in the Isles) as far as I know.
True, and for the record Ireland was settled by Norwegians, Saxons and Normans at various points too. I'd agree with PaleoEuropean that Scots are more northern shifted on average, but it's not a large difference at all, especially in the lowlands where they often cluster directly with the Irish on PCA plots. At the end of the day, Irish and Scots are far more similar to one another than different, and (as you pointed out) while both nations are very northern shifted compared to the European average, neither is predominantly Germanic.

[nittionia]

I would guess Scottish but it doesn’t matter


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[Bellbeaking]

They are about the same on Most PCA's, I think Irish might be very slightly more Northern, but a fair bit more western.

There is a lot of regional variation though I think Ireland has a NE-SW cline of increasing neolithic towards the SW. Scotland seems to have higher neolithic in the North, Orkney has fairly high neolithic. In the Bronze age English samples had lower neolithic than those from Scotland - so at one point there was a S-N cline (more neolithic in the North UK), but that is reversed today wrt england and scotland, Scotland may still retain this cline.

One study hinted at a massive difference between North and South Wales in terms of PCA position, with North Wales among Scotland and Northern England and South Wales with Cornwall.

https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article/figure/image?size=medium&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1007152.g002 North Wales (NWA is up north next to CUMbria, while south Wales is actually south of CORnwall). This has been discussed a lot by many on here but we haven't seen much investigation into the genetics of Wales. If we get some North Welsh and South Welsh GEDmatch kits we could compare ancestral components though. Likely S.Wales has higher native neolithic or more Breton Beaker as opposed to Rhine Beaker.

[Grace O'Malley]

They are very similar. I've tried to find plots that have both Irish and Scots but there isn't really much of a difference.

This one is from a study which had both Irish and Scots and as you can see they cluster pretty much together.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2010/09/euro51.png

This is from the Global 25 plot and as you can see they cluster fairly close on this as well.

https://s22.postimg.cc/ggsv1lmhd/G25_Etno_Graph.png

And of course Ancestry puts them together in their most recent plot.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/55d49893e4b0caee6f77186f/1559843339212-3ABEL2NK6X5EPTWBXJV7/ke17ZwdGBToddI8pDm48kNZZrSIXSB8b1FFURETINVlZw-zPPgdn4jUwVcJE1ZvWQUxwkmyExglNqGp0IvTJZamWLI2zvYWH 8K3-s_4yszcp2ryTI0HqTOaaUohrI8PITrRalicwp1T9WjCkuC6JNL O3tA9u_78qH8okaiZjc8A/DNA+ethnicity+estimation+Ancestry+reference+panels +populations+Jayne+3.png?format=1000w

Novembre plot with Irish and Scots.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/James_Degnan/publication/41668571/figure/fig1/AS:601755859578894@1520481185781/Procrustes-analysis-of-genetic-and-geographic-coordinates-in-Europe-based-on-data-from.png

Another image of the Novembre plot

http://jnpopgen.org/images/respic/novembre2008a.jpg

[Grace O'Malley]

They are about the same on Most PCA's, I think Irish might be very slightly more Northern, but a fair bit more western.

There is a lot of regional variation though I think Ireland has a NE-SW cline of increasing neolithic towards the SW. Scotland seems to have higher neolithic in the North, Orkney has fairly high neolithic. In the Bronze age English samples had lower neolithic than those from Scotland - so at one point there was a S-N cline (more neolithic in the North UK), but that is reversed today wrt england and scotland, Scotland may still retain this cline.

One study hinted at a massive difference between North and South Wales in terms of PCA position, with North Wales among Scotland and Northern England and South Wales with Cornwall.

https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article/figure/image?size=medium&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1007152.g002 North Wales (NWA is up north next to CUMbria, while south Wales is actually south of CORnwall). This has been discussed a lot by many on here but we haven't seen much investigation into the genetics of Wales. If we get some North Welsh and South Welsh GEDmatch kits we could compare ancestral components though. Likely S.Wales has higher native neolithic or more Breton Beaker as opposed to Rhine Beaker.

Cornish do have a more neolithic south pull and have less Nordic-type admixture. This is something I've seen from a couple of Cornish G25 models. The differences between north and south Wales is of interest in itself and I wish there was more discussion about it.

[Albannach]

They are about the same on Most PCA's, I think Irish might be very slightly more Northern, but a fair bit more western.

There is a lot of regional variation though I think Ireland has a NE-SW cline of increasing neolithic towards the SW. Scotland seems to have higher neolithic in the North, Orkney has fairly high neolithic. In the Bronze age English samples had lower neolithic than those from Scotland - so at one point there was a S-N cline (more neolithic in the North UK), but that is reversed today wrt england and scotland, Scotland may still retain this cline.

One study hinted at a massive difference between North and South Wales in terms of PCA position, with North Wales among Scotland and Northern England and South Wales with Cornwall.

https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article/figure/image?size=medium&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1007152.g002 North Wales (NWA is up north next to CUMbria, while south Wales is actually south of CORnwall). This has been discussed a lot by many on here but we haven't seen much investigation into the genetics of Wales. If we get some North Welsh and South Welsh GEDmatch kits we could compare ancestral components though. Likely S.Wales has higher native neolithic or more Breton Beaker as opposed to Rhine Beaker.

I wonder if the closeness of the N. Welsh to Cumbria and Scotland is as a result of Cunedda and his followers settling there from S. Scotland. It's also interesting that my Y-DNA L1335 is also found in the Llyn peninsula in Gwynedd, I wonder if Cunedda and his followers brought it to Wales and whether the origin of L1335 is actually from the Britons of Yr Hen Ogledd rather than the Picts or Scots, It would be Ironic if the progenitor of so many Gaelic clans was a Cumbric speaking Briton from S. Scotland/N. England.

[jmls]

I mean, they are both Northern European ethnicities, so...

[Grace O'Malley]

Just while I remember but with both the Irish DNA Atlas and the PoBI the Welsh are a bit more distinctive but not as much as the Orcadians. This might be caused by drift (I'm not really sure) but after the Orcadians both the South Welsh and North Welsh break away from both the Irish and British cluster.

https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article/figure/image?size=medium&id=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1007152.g004

The Welsh are quite interesting and I wish there was more study done on them.

[Lucas]

And how do Welsh compare ?

The question should be "Who is more western or NW shifted or Atlantic shifted".
Northern or north Germanic admixture has peak in Frisian area. It is not the same component as has peak in Ireland or Scotland.

[Jana]

The question should be "Who is more western or NW shifted or Atlantic shifted".
Northern or north Germanic admixture has peak in Frisian area. It is not the same component as has peak in Ireland or Scotland.

By northern admixture I meant more northern on PCA.

[Figaro]

We also have a tendency to view Anglo-Saxons as a monolithic “pure”, Uber Germanic people little removed from Common Germanic. There were probably differences in substructure, a gradient along the bel-ne-lux through rguably most or all of Jutland (Jutes in turn, in my view, probably spoke an Ingvaeonic language prior to becoming Danishized). During this time, while there was probably a half-solid Cline connecting these people, there was also probably a good deal of genetic “unevenness “, and likely already Celtic influences in some. With all that in mind, I wonder how different sub-populations effected different brits/Irish.

Anyhoot, aren’t the English more southern-shifted than the Irish and Scots both? I know recent research has suggested there was a slight Roman-era impact after all. Not sure this is the sole reason for that.

[Gaditanian]

IMO Scottish, they suffered much more the scandinavian invasions than Irish people

[PaleoEuropean]

You sure ? Germanic admixture doesn't equal more northern shift. North English are not that Germanic, and they cluster more north than SE English (most Anglo-Saxon admixed in the Isles) as far as I know.

I am of Norman Scottish descent and I cluster closest with Dutch, Germans and Southern English

[Figaro]

I am of Norman Scottish descent and I cluster closest with Dutch, Germans and Southern English

What’s the breakdown of your ancestry overall?

[PaleoEuropean]

What’s the breakdown of your ancestry overall?

Dad's side is 85-90% Scottish (mostly Norman Surnames) Johnstone, McCandless (old Norse Gael family), the rest Irish and English
Mom is like an even mix of English, Irish (mostly Norman again) and continental German with some Gaelic Scottish peppered in

[billErobreren]

Most will say Scots; Western Scotland's clusters in between eastern Ireland and Northern England, Northern Ireland also for obvious reasons. Orkney doesn't stray too far from the North of England. There are chunks of Scotland which were pretty much untouched by Teutonic settlement. Probably around Atholl. Overwhelmingly, they'll remind you of Northern Englishmen.

[Figaro]

Dad's side is 85-90% Scottish (mostly Norman Surnames) Johnstone, McCandless (old Norse Gael family), the rest Irish and English
Mom is like an even mix of English, Irish (mostly Norman again) and continental German with some Gaelic Scottish peppered in

Nice mix, my friend. I’m sure you got a lotta fight in your blood. I’ve always found Scotland and Scots very interesting, possibly my favorite Brit islanders (in an academic sense/ aesthetics/ coolness).

[Grace O'Malley]

IMO Scottish, they suffered much more the scandinavian invasions than Irish people

This is an interesting question but I don't know if it is true that Vikings were much more intrusive in Scotland proper than they were in Ireland. Most of the Viking Kingdom was around the Irish Sea and it was more the Scottish Isles where the Vikings settled. They didn't bother with Eastern Scotland for example.

https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/I/m/Kingdom_of_Mann_and_the_Isles-en.svg.png

The biggest Viking Kingdom outside of Scandinavia was Dublin and they also started settlements in other areas of Ireland such as Limerick, Limerick, Wexford, Waterford, Wicklow, Arklow and Leixlip.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viking_expansion

https://guides.library.cornell.edu/c.php?g=32286&p=203484

The Irish DNA Atlas also found that Orcadians, Irish and West Scots had the highest Norse component. The more I read about this subject the more it makes sense to me as the Norse Vikings kingdoms were all centred in the Irish Sea and Dublin was where many of their raids on England was conducted from.

Regarding who is more northern shifted Irish and Scots cluster together pretty much. It's obvious to me that the Bronze Age Irish and Scots were a very northern people anyway without considering anything like Vikings or Anglo-Saxons.

Here is a breakdown of Irish, Scots, English and Norwegians. It's a simple model looking at Steppe, HG and Farmer. Possibly Creoda, Ph2ter etc could say what pulls one north. I would have thought it would be WHG but it's most likely more complicated than that and a combination of all three.

"sample": "Irish:Average",
"fit": 4.5327,
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara": 55,
"Anatolia_Barcin_N": 34.17,
"WHG": 10.83,

"sample": "Norwegian:Average",
"fit": 4.4984,
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara": 54.17,
"Anatolia_Barcin_N": 32.5,
"WHG": 13.33,

"sample": "Scottish:Average",
"fit": 4.2812,
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara": 52.5,
"Anatolia_Barcin_N": 35,
"WHG": 12.5,

"sample": "English:Average",
"fit": 4.3342,
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara": 51.67,
"Anatolia_Barcin_N": 36.67,
"WHG": 11.67,

"sample": "English_Cornwall:Average",
"fit": 4.3579,
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara": 50.83,
"Anatolia_Barcin_N": 37.5,
"WHG": 11.67,

[Gaditanian]

This is an interesting question but I don't know if it is true that Vikings were much more intrusive in Scotland proper than they were in Ireland. Most of the Viking Kingdom was around the Irish Sea and it was more the Scottish Isles where the Vikings settled. They didn't bother with Eastern Scotland for example.



Good point of view.

Can be possible that Ireland were more interesting for scandinavians than Scotland? better climate, better lands to till, less problems comparing that with the english & scottish people, etc

[Voskos]

Scottish are lighter(more scandinavian influenced) if that's what you mean.

[RenaRyuguu]

Scottish.