American here....got a few questions for you all:

[rhiannon]

I sincerely hope there are a good number of actual Welsh people on here....

Can someone please explain to me why Nordicists separate Wales out from the rest of Britain when listing GermanoNordic countries?

I have three Welsh surnames in my family history that I know of....one of which is my mother's maiden name.

She has always told me that Welsh people are dark haired, light eyed, and fair-skinned. Is that true?

My mother is also the only person who has ever told me that Wales became some sort of destination for Scandinavian criminals who had been booted out of their homelands....is this true? I always thought it was hooey....but you never know.

Can anyone on here tell me much more about the Beaker people? I just learned that many Welsh are the descendents of these original inhabitants even prior to the Celts....

And my last question....I've recently been told that there is some academic paper that claims Celts were never in Britain. I find that very hard to believe based on most of the reading I've done up to this point.....but is there a kernel of truth in there somewhere?

My sincere thanks for anyone willing to answer these questions. I am pretty new on Apricity and am actually happy to see pages devoted to all the nations of Europe:)

Thank you very kindly!!

Byrnecres

[Graham]

Can someone please explain to me why Nordicists separate Wales out from the rest of Britain when listing GermanoNordic countries?



Wales is the anglo saxon word for foreign. We still think of them as some sort of mysterious cave dwellers to this day. :D


She has always told me that Welsh people are dark haired, light eyed, and fair-skinned. Is that true?

When I think of a welsh looking person

http://www.glee.co.uk/upload/performers/small/Lloyd_Langford_web_2008.JPG

[Allenson]

Hello--that's quite a lot you've asked & I'm not Welsh, but let's see what I can add... :cool:

First off, It's not just 'Noricists' that seperate Wales from England when speaking of Ethnology. It's just a simple fact of history and ethnic origins. England is noted as a Germanic country (though not Nordic!) simply because it was a loose confederation of Germanic folk from the Continent who gave her her language, national identity and likely a fair few genes too. While Wales certainly received some of this input, it has retained its Celtic/native British character over the years and has even had a bit of a revival (particularly the Welsh language) more recently.

As for the dark hair--light eyes--fair skin combination: sure, lots of Welsh have that look. Then again, it's quite common anywhere in Britain (including England, Cornwall & Scotland), Ireland and anywhere that these people spread throughout history. A common name for this type is North Atlantid.

That being said though, pigmentation maps of the Isles have repeatedly shown that the east tends to be a bit lighter than the west overall.

I've never heard about Scandinavian criminals being sent to Wales, so I can't really comment on that without doing a little homework.

Beaker folk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaker_culture).

As for the Celts never having settled in Britain--I don't know of the specific paper that you refer too but there is a school of thought out there that derives language change and change of material culture as resulting from contact between two groups of people with minimal gene-flow or settlement/migration. Call them the 'anti-migrationists'.

Where's Treffie? ;)

[Graham]

Where's Treffie? ;)

Treffie said he'll be working in Ȝetland and Isle of Lewis this week.:thumb001:

[rhiannon]

I definitely look forward to Treffie's input. From the reading I've done in this group, Treffie appears to be pretty well-informed:)

[Albion]

I sincerely hope there are a good number of actual Welsh people on here....

I live near Wales and can pick up Welsh TV channels, is that good enough? ;)


Can someone please explain to me why Nordicists separate Wales out from the rest of Britain when listing GermanoNordic countries?

Because a lot of the old antropologists classified it as Med instead of Nordic. Add to this the Celtic origin myths about arriving from Spain (which genetically turned out to be true, but much longer ago) and so it appeared to point to a Med origin.
Most Welsh I see are Nordic or a unpure Nordic, much like England. There is however a Med input in the British Isles, it becomes stronger in Cornwall, Southern Wales and parts of SW England but still these areas are predominantly Nordic, there isn't really any pure, umixed Meds.

The Romans wrote of a tribe in South Wales, the Silures as being very Roman looking, latter day anthropologists also used this as evidence of the Welsh being Meds.
They're more Nordic though so don't worry.


I have three Welsh surnames in my family history that I know of....one of which is my mother's maiden name.

What surnames are they? They only have about seven surnames in Wales. :D


She has always told me that Welsh people are dark haired, light eyed, and fair-skinned. Is that true?

Yes, there's less blondes in Wales, Western and SW England and Western Scotland than in the east of England or Scotland.


My mother is also the only person who has ever told me that Wales became some sort of destination for Scandinavian criminals who had been booted out of their homelands....is this true? I always thought it was hooey....but you never know.

A few settled around the coast, not many though. Most went to England which was more familiar with a similar culture and sort of similar language at this point - intergration was easier in a country much like the one you've left.


Can anyone on here tell me much more about the Beaker people? I just learned that many Welsh are the descendents of these original inhabitants even prior to the Celts....

It's just a culture, not many settled, just a handful of elite who passed on the culture to the natives.
All of the peoples of the British Isles predominantly derive from the people who colonised the land after the last Ice Age. In eastern England and Scotland there is the addition of Germanic settlement, but it is likely that the east mirrored the genetic view of the nearby continent before the Germanics or Celts even existed.


And my last question....I've recently been told that there is some academic paper that claims Celts were never in Britain. I find that very hard to believe based on most of the reading I've done up to this point.....but is there a kernel of truth in there somewhere?

There's not much evidence of an invasion or change in genetics to suggest it. They now think that the Celtic culture developed slowly over much of Europe and elements spread between different areas to form what we recognise as "Celtic" today.
Besides, any Celtic invasion would have largely missed Wales and been concentrated in East and SE England. Here a Celtic invasion did happen, Belgae - Belgian Celts settled in small numbers amongst the British Celts.


Thank you very kindly!!

You're welcome.


First off, It's not just 'Noricists' that seperate Wales from England when speaking of Ethnology. It's just a simple fact of history and ethnic origins. England is noted as a Germanic country (though not Nordic!) simply because it was a loose confederation of Germanic folk from the Continent who gave her her language, national identity and likely a fair few genes too. While Wales certainly received some of this input, it has retained its Celtic/native British character over the years and has even had a bit of a revival (particularly the Welsh language) more recently.


England is noted for being a dubiously Germanic country - maybe Celtic, maybe Germanic or a mix of both genetically, Germanic culturally.
Its something of a mystery as to how it came to have a Germanic culture with so few Celtic elements if the Celts stayed put.

The English could be descirbed as Germanics or Germanics who forgot that they were Celts. :rolleyes:
The Welsh largely show what England might look like had the Celts there hung on, the Welsh are the remnants with the Cornish of the British Celts that the Romans encountered.


Then again, it's quite common anywhere in Britain (including England, Cornwall & Scotland), Ireland and anywhere that these people spread throughout history. A common name for this type is North Atlantid.


Indeed, you're talking to one. Another theory about the dark haired Nordics of the British Isles is that it is an additional addaptation to a cloudy climate but one which lacks prolonged periods of darkness in winter. Nordic features probably evolved to soak up Vitamin D from the sun, there isn't as much need for this if there is more sun or daylight un more Southern or Western climates.

[johngaunt]

The Welsh also had a lot of settlement from Ireland. The south west of Wales was know as little England due to many Flemmings and English settling there, and in the north an anglesey (a norse word) many vikings settled.

Wales is also very mixed, if you go to inland areas, black mountains and powys, you still see the typical short, dark haired type in abundance. Elsewhere on the coasts, you could be in any city in the UK really. Looks dont differ much.

[rhiannon]

I live near Wales and can pick up Welsh TV channels, is that good enough? ;)



Because a lot of the old antropologists classified it as Med instead of Nordic. Add to this the Celtic origin myths about arriving from Spain (which genetically turned out to be true, but much longer ago) and so it appeared to point to a Med origin.
Most Welsh I see are Nordic or a unpure Nordic, much like England. There is however a Med input in the British Isles, it becomes stronger in Cornwall, Southern Wales and parts of SW England but still these areas are predominantly Nordic, there isn't really any pure, umixed Meds.

The Romans wrote of a tribe in South Wales, the Silures as being very Roman looking, latter day anthropologists also used this as evidence of the Welsh being Meds.
They're more Nordic though so don't worry.



What surnames are they? They only have about seven surnames in Wales. :D



Yes, there's less blondes in Wales, Western and SW England and Western Scotland than in the east of England or Scotland.



A few settled around the coast, not many though. Most went to England which was more familiar with a similar culture and sort of similar language at this point - intergration was easier in a country much like the one you've left.



It's just a culture, not many settled, just a handful of elite who passed on the culture to the natives.
All of the peoples of the British Isles predominantly derive from the people who colonised the land after the last Ice Age. In eastern England and Scotland there is the addition of Germanic settlement, but it is likely that the east mirrored the genetic view of the nearby continent before the Germanics or Celts even existed.



There's not much evidence of an invasion or change in genetics to suggest it. They now think that the Celtic culture developed slowly over much of Europe and elements spread between different areas to form what we recognise as "Celtic" today.
Besides, any Celtic invasion would have largely missed Wales and been concentrated in East and SE England. Here a Celtic invasion did happen, Belgae - Belgian Celts settled in small numbers amongst the British Celts.



You're welcome.



England is noted for being a dubiously Germanic country - maybe Celtic, maybe Germanic or a mix of both genetically, Germanic culturally.
Its something of a mystery as to how it came to have a Germanic culture with so few Celtic elements if the Celts stayed put.

The English could be descirbed as Germanics or Germanics who forgot that they were Celts. :rolleyes:
The Welsh largely show what England might look like had the Celts there hung on, the Welsh are the remnants with the Cornish of the British Celts that the Romans encountered.



Indeed, you're talking to one. Another theory about the dark haired Nordics of the British Isles is that it is an additional addaptation to a cloudy climate but one which lacks prolonged periods of darkness in winter. Nordic features probably evolved to soak up Vitamin D from the sun, there isn't as much need for this if there is more sun or daylight un more Southern or Western climates.

I just saw this. Thank you so much for taking the time out to talk to me!:thumbs

[Treffie]

I sincerely hope there are a good number of actual Welsh people on here....

Me :p


Can someone please explain to me why Nordicists separate Wales out from the rest of Britain when listing GermanoNordic countries?

Perhaps it's because there weren't many Viking settlements in Wales compared to the rest of Britain. The Welsh Kings were too powerful for them to settle in great numbers.


I have three Welsh surnames in my family history that I know of....one of which is my mother's maiden name.

Welsh surnames are the most common surnames in the US - Jones, Williams, Thomas etc


She has always told me that Welsh people are dark haired, light eyed, and fair-skinned. Is that true?

Many are, but just like everywhere else in Britain, there are all types


My mother is also the only person who has ever told me that Wales became some sort of destination for Scandinavian criminals who had been booted out of their homelands....is this true? I always thought it was hooey....but you never know.

My hometown, Swansea was founded by Sweyn Forkbeard. I'm sure he was a bit of a rotter. We've got an image of him in our Guildhall.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Sweyn.jpg


And my last question....I've recently been told that there is some academic paper that claims Celts were never in Britain. I find that very hard to believe based on most of the reading I've done up to this point.....but is there a kernel of truth in there somewhere?

I doubt it. I speak a Celtic language after all


My sincere thanks for anyone willing to answer these questions. I am pretty new on Apricity and am actually happy to see pages devoted to all the nations of Europe:)

Thank you very kindly!!

Byrnecres

Croeso :thumb001:


The Welsh also had a lot of settlement from Ireland. The south west of Wales was know as little England due to many Flemmings and English settling there, and in the north an anglesey (a norse word) many vikings settled.


Yep, I have Flemish ancestry ;)

[Osweo]

Most Welsh I see are Nordic or a unpure Nordic, much like England. There is however a Med input in the British Isles, it becomes stronger in Cornwall, Southern Wales and parts of SW England but still these areas are predominantly Nordic, there isn't really any pure, umixed Meds.
NordiD, if you're talking about phenotypes. Yes, the 'Keltic Nordid' type is to be found. Is Neil Kinnock a bit too broad and robust for that title? He's a typical look, to my mind;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/img/themes/society/politics/446x251/neil_kinnock.jpg


The Romans wrote of a tribe in South Wales, the Silures as being very Roman looking, latter day anthropologists also used this as evidence of the Welsh being Meds.
They're more Nordic though so don't worry.
I don't think they are particularly nordiD, and I've seen plenty of Welshers that match Agricola's comments.

A few settled around the coast, not many though. Most went to England which was more familiar with a similar culture and sort of similar language at this point - intergration was easier in a country much like the one you've left.
Rings truer than Treffie's 'powerful Welsh kings' reason.. ;)

It's just a culture, not many settled, just a handful of elite who passed on the culture to the natives.
I don't buy that at all. MORE than a handful. Not a majority, but a damned sizeable amount of people, I'd say.


Besides, any Celtic invasion would have largely missed Wales and been concentrated in East and SE England.
Actually, I'd question that. Look at the positions of the Fir Domnainn in Ireland, Damnonii in Argyle, and Dumnonii in Devon. The Irish Sea was a major invasion route, and Irish traditions speaks of several invasions that had by passed eastern Britannia, and opted to sail up into the Irish Sea.


The Welsh largely show what England might look like had the Celts there hung on, the Welsh are the remnants with the Cornish of the British Celts that the Romans encountered.
I'd say that there had always been physical differences across Britain, before the English or Celtic invasions even. Different seas wash different shores.


The Welsh also had a lot of settlement from Ireland.
Very true, founding dynasties in Brecon and Dyfed, and giving their name to Gwynedd.

Wales is also very mixed, if you go to inland areas, black mountains and powys, you still see the typical short, dark haired type in abundance. Elsewhere on the coasts, you could be in any city in the UK really. Looks dont differ much.
Ditto on the mixed. I have a Welsh friend from Powys who looks roughly like this in coloration and pilosity;
http://norcs.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/highland-cow-small.jpg:p

Perhaps it's because there weren't many Viking settlements in Wales compared to the rest of Britain. The Welsh Kings were too powerful for them to settle in great numbers.
:bowlol: Thank your mountains, not your kings! :D


Welsh surnames are the most common surnames in the US - Jones, Williams, Thomas etc
AHEM many of those are negros AHEM :tongue

I doubt it. I speak a Celtic language after all
Exactly. There were no cassette/DVD and textbook combos on sale in the Iron Age. You need people to spread a language so well!

[Treffie]

Rings truer than Treffie's 'powerful Welsh kings' reason.. ;)

Thank your mountains, not your kings!



Pembrokeshire, rolling, undulating hills. Ynys Môn, flat as a pancake, yet neither had significant Viking settlements. We're not Switzerland you know! :p

[Osweo]

Pembrokeshire, rolling, undulating hills. Ynys Môn, flat as a pancake, yet neither had significant Viking settlements. We're not Switzerland you know! :p

:p Damn!

Okay... er... less readily portable wealth lying around in big fat monasteries...!?! :ohwell: Ermmmm..... Distracted by the better harbours afforded by Dublin, Waterford, Man and Northwest England!!?!? :shrug:

Alliance WITH local princes to rob richer England?!

[Beorn]

Can someone please explain to me why Nordicists separate Wales out from the rest of Britain when listing GermanoNordic countries?

Tiger Bay (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_Bay)

[Albion]

The Welsh Kings were too powerful for them to settle in great numbers.

No, its because they were more divided. In England there were a handful of large (by British Dark Age standards) nations - it is much easier to take a more centralised country than many divided little countries.
If you take one small country in an area of divided, waring states then it is very easy for one of the other nations to attack you.
The Welsh kingdoms weren't powerful, they survived for so long because they were divided and protected by the terrain and that made conquest by say Mercia very difficult since rebel states could easily set up in the loosely controlled territory.


Rings truer than Treffie's 'powerful Welsh kings' reason.. ;)

:thumb001:


I don't buy that at all. MORE than a handful. Not a majority, but a damned sizeable amount of people, I'd say.

I've always based the numbers in my head at around a similar percentage to the modern non-white immigrants in the UK - only a portion of the population but they have deeply affected it.


Actually, I'd question that. Look at the positions of the Fir Domnainn in Ireland, Damnonii in Argyle, and Dumnonii in Devon. The Irish Sea was a major invasion route, and Irish traditions speaks of several invasions that had by passed eastern Britannia, and opted to sail up into the Irish Sea.

The invasion myths are folk memory of the recolonisation of Britain by people from the Basque refuge after the LGM.
The Irish Sea was a good route for sure, but I can't imaging thousands of Celts moving between Britain, Ireland and the continent in Currachs somehow.
Dumnonii, Cornovii, Brigantes spread around the Isles, sounds like similar naming conventions based on similar languages but the Brigantes in Ireland could have been the Brythonic-speaking exception, Northerners around Wicklow. :p


I'd say that there had always been physical differences across Britain, before the English or Celtic invasions even. Different seas wash different shores.

Indeed, I hinted at such. The North Sea and Doggerland would have meant that East England would have always shared some similarities with the near continent anyway, especially in genetics.
That's why despite the genetic evidence of migrations I maintain that the migrations were small, pointing to a genetic difference in the east and attributing it solely to Angles and Vikings whilst disregarding the post-LGM recolonisation of NW Europe has always seemed to be a major oversight to me.


In eastern England and Scotland there is the addition of Germanic settlement, but it is likely that the east mirrored the genetic view of the nearby continent before the Germanics or Celts even existed.


:bowlol: Thank your mountains, not your kings! :D

Yeah, that's about it. The Pennines had good land to both sides in the Vale of York and Lancs / Chesh. I suppose apart from the NE and South of Wales there wasn't as much interest in Welsh farmland from the English farmers.


Pembrokeshire, rolling, undulating hills. Ynys Môn, flat as a pancake, yet neither had significant Viking settlements. We're not Switzerland you know!

Then read my earlier comments on cultural similarities. Brits emigrate to Australia because its sunny and has a similar culture, France and Spain aren't too different either.
Brits avoid emigrating to say Romania or Crimea because the cultures are totally different.
My theory (and someone elses, some prof who I forget which one) is that the Vikings missed Wales because it was divided and too different for them to see it as an easy place to settle in.
In England the language was still understandable to Danish speakers with some practice, Vikings and Old English intermarried, had similar farming practices, similarities in material culture and ways - after all the Angles and Jutes were from Jutland / Cimbria, with the Danes taking Jutland soon after the migrations to Britain.

[Aces High]

Can someone please explain to me why Nordicists separate Wales out from the rest of Britain when listing GermanoNordic countries?


It might have something to do with them being three feet tall,having black swarthy hair and speaking in some sort of Bulgarian language.

[Treffie]

The Welsh kingdoms weren't powerful, they survived for so long because they were divided and protected by the terrain and that made conquest by say Mercia very difficult since rebel states could easily set up in the loosely controlled territory.

That's rubbish. The terrains of Cumbria and North Yorkshire are very similar to that of north Wales, yet there were Viking settlements everywhere.

Map (http://www.flickr.com/photos/stevefaeembra/4479234771/)

Wales is not all mountains, Carmarthenshire down south is full of lush farmland, the only mountains you'll see are in the far east of the county in the Black Mountain range (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Mountain_%28range%29), yet there is not one substantial Viking settlement in the county.

Besides, I'm quite sure that seeing that many of the Vikings came from the west of Norway, that the topography of Wales would have been a walk in the park.

As for Anglesey, there was only one sizable Viking settlement at Llanbedrgoch (http://www.museumwales.ac.uk/en/253/) and that's about it. So much for the topography of Wales being a problem for the Vikings. I'm not interested in personal opinions why the Vikings didn't settle here in large numbers, I would like some historical evidence and so far the evidence points away from the fact that the geography of the place prevented them.

[rhiannon]

That's rubbish. The terrains of Cumbria and North Yorkshire are very similar to that of north Wales, yet there were Viking settlements everywhere.

Map (http://www.flickr.com/photos/stevefaeembra/4479234771/)

Wales is not all mountains, Carmarthenshire down south is full of lush farmland, the only mountains you'll see are in the far east of the county in the Black Mountain range (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Mountain_%28range%29), yet there is not one substantial Viking settlement in the county.

Besides, I'm quite sure that seeing that many of the Vikings came from the west of Norway, that the topography of Wales would have been a walk in the park.

As for Anglesey, there was only one sizable Viking settlement at Llanbedrgoch (http://www.museumwales.ac.uk/en/253/) and that's about it. So much for the topography of Wales being a problem for the Vikings. I'm not interested in personal opinions why the Vikings didn't settle here in large numbers, I would like some historical evidence and so far the evidence points away from the fact that the geography of the place prevented them.

Treffie, thank you for your posts here. I am confused. Did the Vikings settle Wales at all? Are there any Welsh names with Viking or Germanic origins?
It would seem to me, based on the Geography of Britain and of Norway, Wales might have been prime landing ground for Viking raiders.

[Treffie]

Treffie, thank you for your posts here. I am confused. Did the Vikings settle Wales at all? Are there any Welsh names with Viking or Germanic origins?
It would seem to me, based on the Geography of Britain and of Norway, Wales might have been prime landing ground for Viking raiders.

That's the thing. So very few settled in Wales, that there is very little written about them. Dr Mark Redknap from the Museum of Wales (http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba40/ba40regs.html) is probably the best source for any decent information. From what archeological remains that have been found, it appears that they settled at one or two locations on the north coast and a few along the Bristol Channel.

A list of place names (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_placenames#Places_in_Wales_where_the_Welsh_a nd_English_placenames_appear_to_differ)

[Osweo]

That's rubbish. The terrains of Cumbria and North Yorkshire are very similar to that of north Wales, yet there were Viking settlements everywhere.
True, and the special case of Anglesey is all the more surprising in this context.

I wonder if this is relevant? From the fall of Northumbria, all the way until Edward the Elder's day - several centuries - there is a lacuna in the historical narrative for the North-West of England. We are left scraping together what we can from meagre archaeology and place-name studies, almost. Perhaps there was more going on in Anglesey than we realise?

I'd give anything to know who this bloody OngullR WAS who it got named after!


I'll say this for Yorkshire and Cumbria, though: Yorkshire was centralised under the Northumbrians. Once the Danes killed the king and seized York itself, the rest followed naturally. Cumbria was then important for the passes over to the Irish Sea, and the links between Norse Dublin, Man and Jorvik. The Northumbrian power vaccuum again took its toll. Celtabria brought up the different political situation in Wales, and the smaller territories and flatter political structure will have helped yous avoid the fate of Northumbria.

I'm reminded of what a Ukrainian woman once said to me about the Caucasus; "In Russia, a noble had thousands of serfs and estates. In the Caucasus, every man with a few sheep is a prince!" Our Northumbrian lords got too big and concentrated power far too dangerously.


Besides, I'm quite sure that seeing that many of the Vikings came from the west of Norway, that the topography of Wales would have been a walk in the park.
No fjords, mind! Not nearly enough good harbours.

so far the evidence points away from the fact that the geography of the place prevented them.
Perhaps the place of Wales within the geography of the British Isles as a whole is still pertinent, though. There wasn't an unlimited supply of Viking manpower. Wales sits in the middle like a fortress, while Ireland and England are almost swamped. Perhaps easier richer pickings in those countries saved you? There was no real need to take Wales, given that they could expect no opposition from her while they had their way with her neighbours.

By the way, about the cultural ease of conquest and colonisation in England - the Norse did fine in Ireland and the Western and Northern Isles, it should be said. :chin:

[johngaunt]

The Welsh I know often colluded with the Welsh againt the saxons, this could be one reason they didnt settle there, they were simply concentrating on England. Also, more obvious, the north sea faces England, for settling alos it would be easier as they spoke a similar tongue I imagine.

Regarding vikng settling in Wales, I know only three areas for sure.

1. Anglsey

2.Gower/Swansea

3. Pemroke area (maybe) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skokholm

Skokholm is certainly Scandinavian influence.

[Treffie]

No fjords, mind! Not nearly enough good harbours.



You're right. Milford Haven was settled by the Norse.


Admiral Horatio Nelson, visiting the harbour with the Hamiltons, described it as the next best natural harbour to Trincomalee in Sri Lanka (then Ceylon) and "the finest port in Christendom":D

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Milford_Haven_harbourmap1946.jpg

[Albion]

That's rubbish. The terrains of Cumbria and North Yorkshire are very similar to that of north Wales, yet there were Viking settlements everywhere.

Map (http://www.flickr.com/photos/stevefaeembra/4479234771/)

Wales is not all mountains, Carmarthenshire down south is full of lush farmland, the only mountains you'll see are in the far east of the county in the Black Mountain range (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Mountain_%28range%29), yet there is not one substantial Viking settlement in the county.

Besides, I'm quite sure that seeing that many of the Vikings came from the west of Norway, that the topography of Wales would have been a walk in the park.

As for Anglesey, there was only one sizable Viking settlement at Llanbedrgoch (http://www.museumwales.ac.uk/en/253/) and that's about it. So much for the topography of Wales being a problem for the Vikings. I'm not interested in personal opinions why the Vikings didn't settle here in large numbers, I would like some historical evidence and so far the evidence points away from the fact that the geography of the place prevented them.

I was speaking of the Anglo-Saxons there, Angles, Jutes and Saxons all came from areas more similar in terrain to England, flat to rolling hills for the most part.

The Danes did too who made up the bulk of the Vikings.
As for why the Norwegian Vikings didn't settle Wales heavily is probably again because of the division of the country and because they had bases in the Northern and Western Isles and Dublin and so probably didn't feel compelled to go to the trouble of fighting many warring nations in Wales.

As for terrain, the terrain is similar in ways but the hills in England tend to be surrounded by a lot of fertile farmland in Lancashire and the Cumbrian Coast, Solway Firth and Vale of York - the Welsh lowlands aren't as big and there aren't many immediately flat areas surrounding the hills as in England.
Cumbria also has deep, fertile and wide valleys, Snowdonia and the Cambrians have narrow, steep valleys - arable crops Vs hill farming.

The question was asking why isn't Wales considered GermanoNordic.


Treffie, thank you for your posts here. I am confused. Did the Vikings settle Wales at all? Are there any Welsh names with Viking or Germanic origins?
It would seem to me, based on the Geography of Britain and of Norway, Wales might have been prime landing ground for Viking raiders.

Geographically it was suitable, they didn't settle because the country was so divided - if they settled they'd have to endeur constant attacks from the other Welsh Kingdoms - a centralised nation can be taken and controlled a lot easier and islands can be defended.
Hence the Norwegian Vikings went for the Scottish Islands and only really settle in significant numbers in the Isle of Anglessey in Wales.
There was Norwegian Viking settlement in North West England - the Danelaw and Kingdom of York because squabbling kingdoms weren't there to create a state of total war


By the way, about the cultural ease of conquest and colonisation in England - the Norse did fine in Ireland and the Western and Northern Isles, it should be said.

They were assimilated in Scotland, they assimilated the Irish in Ireland but were then assimilated themselves (Norse Gaels).
In England the two populations were already similar in ways.