Global25 model for East Germans

[Peterski]

Looks pretty solid:

https://i.imgur.com/qEBjSqK.png

I think this German_East average (8 samples) is from Leipzig (the same as German_Lipsian from MDLP K16 calc)?

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EDIT:


genetically the border created by the Slavic migrations and centuries long rule in Eastern Germany is very real and correlates a lot wit the ex-GDR territories.

Germans between the Oder and Elbe are descended from West Germanic settlers who came during the Ostsiedlung and mixed with local Slavic-speaking population. Check the thread below where I posted some excerpts from Helmold's "Slavic Chronicle" where he describes the Wendish Crusade and German settlement:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?275741-Origins-of-Germans-in-Mecklenburg-and-Brandenburg

Distribution of ethnic groups around the year 850 AD:

https://i.imgur.com/xqnrWpA.png

Eastward migration of German peasants after 1100 AD:

https://i.imgur.com/9ohrFJT.png

Political expansion of Brandenburg (Askanian Dynasty):

https://i.imgur.com/ZESgx7I.png

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The main literary source about those events is Saxon historian, Helmold: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmold

Helmold, "Slavic Chronicle", Chapter 57 - "Foundation of the city of Lübeck" - about colonization of Wagria:

https://i.imgur.com/PuAHchx.png

"(...) Count Adolf started building the castle of Segeberg and fortified it. Because the land was ravaged, he sent messengers to many regions, namely to Flanders, Holland, Utrecht, Westphalia and Frisia, with a message that if they needed more land they were free to come with their families, and they would be given a lot of good fertile land, full of fish and game, rich in vast pastures. He also told Holsatians and Sturmarians: 'Aren't you the ones who conquered Slavic land and obtained it through deaths of your brothers and relatives? So why should you settle as the last ones? Be first, start migrating to this desired land, settle it and benefit from its resources' (...). After that call, huge crowds of people from various nations started coming, together with their families and property, to the land of the Wagrians ruled by Adolf, who promised to give them land.

Holsatians were given safe areas to the west of Segeberg, near the Trave river, including the Zuentineveld [modern Bornhöved] fields as well as everything between the river Schwale up to Agrimesov [modern Grimmeisberg] and up to Lake Plön.

The region of Dargun [modern Warder and Ahrensbök/Stoob] was settled by Westphalians.

The region of Utyn [Eutin] was settled by Hollanders.

The region of Süsel [south-east of Eutin] was settled by Frisians.

The region of Plön still remained depopulated for the time being.

Regions of Starogard [Oldenburg] and Lutjenburg as well as other areas along the sea coast were left for farming to the Slavs, who now had to pay rent to Count Adolf (...)".

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Helmold, "Slavic Chronicle", Chapter 91 - about colonization of Mecklenburg:

https://i.imgur.com/RxlFEjN.png

"Heinrich, Count of Ratzeburg in the land of Polabian Slavs, brought masses of Westphalian settlers, in order for them to settle in the land of the Slavs. And he divided the land between them. And they built churches, and they started paying taxes from their farming income for the Glory of God. And God's deed started to spread throughout the land of the Slavs under Heinrich's reign, and was completed during the reign of his son, Bernard. On the other hand, Holsatians who settled in Wagria after expulsion of local Slavs, were very zealous when it comes to building new churches, and were very hospitable, but they avoided paying taxes. (...)"

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Helmold, "Slavic Chronicle", Chapter 88 titled "About Albrecht the Bear":

https://i.imgur.com/VNffGNj.png

[SIZE=5]"At that time Slavic lands were ruled by Margrave Albrecht, also known as the Bear, who - thanks to God's grace - managed to conquer large Slavic territories. He captured entire land of Stodoranians, Brezans and many other tribes living at the Elbe and Havel rivers. And he was crushing those of them who were trying to rebel against his rule. When decimated Slavs started to slowly disappear, Albrecht sent messangers to Utrecht and to lands along the Rhine river and also to those who lived along the ocean's coast and suffered a lot from violent storms of the sea - namely Hollanders, Zealanders and Flemish people - and he brought many settlers from among them, and he settled them within Slavic towns and villages. Thanks to that colonization by foreigners, the Bishopric of Brandenburg and Havelberg increased its strength, because the number of churches and tax income increased. But also southern banks of the Elbe river were at that time colonized by Dutch newcomers, they settled lands around Salzwedel, and Balsemerland [around Stendal and Halberstadt], and Marscinerland [between Arneburg and Werben], with many towns and villages, extending as far as the Bohemian Forest. (...)"

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Polish edition of Helmold's chronicle (in PDF):

http://bc.wimbp.lodz.pl/Content/12337/Paplonski_Helmolda_kronika_a.pdf

[Dick]

It's possiblski

[SharpFork]

If you use Swedish instead of the medieval German samples you get smaller Sorb influence:

"sample": "German_East:Average",
"fit": 0.8902,
"Sorb_Niederlausitz": 35,
"Swedish": 25,
"Swiss_German": 22.5,
"Dutch": 17.5,

Swedish does't seem to work like some kind of relevantly Baltic/Slavic shifted Germanic nation, replacing Swiss_German with Lithuanian doesn't change the Swedish values:

"sample": "German_East:Average",
"fit": 1.0912,
"Dutch": 40.83,
"Sorb_Niederlausitz": 25,
"Swedish": 23.33,
"Lithuanian": 10.83,

This Sorb sample is farther away than Poles interestingly enough:

"sample": "German_East:Average",
"fit": 0.5529,
"Polish": 51.67,
"Dutch": 21.67,
"Swiss_German": 19.17,
"Swedish": 7.5,

If you switch and try to model Poles using this Sorb sample:

"sample": "Polish:Average",
"fit": 0.9455,
"Sorb_Niederlausitz": 44.17,
"Lithuanian": 30.83,
"Dutch": 18.33,
"Swedish": 6.67,

So if we created a model based on this(though we need more samples, they are generally to low) East Germans from Leipzig are about 35% pre-Ostsiedlung West Slavs while Poles are 75% so.

Edit:Obviously this works assuming Dutch and Swedes work as proxy of Slavs without much Slavic influence and the Sorb sample as a proxy of West Slavs without German admixture.

[SharpFork]

This Sorb samples interacts weirdly when one looks at modelling Poles Slavic heritage using Ukranians, the Germanic impact decreases to just 15%. Maybe the problem is the fact we just have one sample from Sorbs? Maybe that's also why the Poles seems to be closer to East Germans too.

Question is also where the Polish and Ukranian samples in G25 come from, if it uses a lot of Western Ukranians or resettled Poles it becomes useless. Same goes for the East Germans.

Edit: Heck even using Ukranian instead of Sorb gives a higher Slavic figure(44% instead of 35%)

[Leto]

"East Germany" is an obsolete political division. Thuringia and Saxony-Anhalt are Central Germany, Meck-Pomm is Northeastern (they should be quite Nordic racially). In fact, the ex-GDR is still referred to by many as Mitteldeutschland (Central Germany) because parts of modern Czechia and Poland used to belong to the German empire.

[SharpFork]

"East Germany" is an obsolete political division. Thuringia and Saxony-Anhalt are Central Germany, Meck-Pomm is Northeastern (they should be quite Nordic racially). In fact, the ex-GDR is still referred to by many as Mitteldeutschland (Central Germany) because parts of modern Czechia and Poland used to belong to the German empire.
Not sure how that's relevant tbh, genetically the border created by the Slavic migrations and centuries long rule in Eastern Germany is very real and correlates a lot wit the ex-GDR territories.

[Leto]

Not sure how that's relevant tbh, genetically the border created by the Slavic migrations and centuries long rule in Eastern Germany is very real and correlates a lot wit the ex-GDR territories.
Okay.
EaSt GeRmAnZ aRe MoNgReLiZeD pOlEz.

[SharpFork]

Okay.
EaSt GeRmAnZ aRe MoNgReLiZeD pOlEz.
What's the problem? You find problems with the metholodogy? You think Eastern Germans were like this prior the Slavic migrations? Not sure what your point is.

[Lucas]

What's the problem? You find problems with the metholodogy? You think Eastern Germans were like this prior the Slavic migrations? Not sure what your point is.

He talked about administrative division prior to 1945. Simply GDR area was named Central Germany back then.
East Germany were those territories which were added to Poland after WWII (more or less).

Look at the map and think were GDR is. If it wasn't Central Germany on this map, so were Central Germany was located?:)

The same situation was for today eastern Poland. Before WWII it was Central Poland geographically...

https://i.imgur.com/omuXYGb.jpg

[Leto]

Thüringen & Sachsen-Anhalt
https://www.pebbzwei.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Pebb_Zwei/Standorte/pebb_deutschlandkarte_sachsen_anhalt_thueringenn.p ng

Any DNA results from there? Also Meck-Pomm is interesting.

[Peterski]

Thüringen & Sachsen-Anhalt
https://www.pebbzwei.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Pebb_Zwei/Standorte/pebb_deutschlandkarte_sachsen_anhalt_thueringenn.p ng

Any DNA results from there? Also Meck-Pomm is interesting.

I have some samples from Thüringen and Sachsen-Anhalt and they are part of the East German cluster.

In Lukasz's PCA these two regions are also part of the East German cluster, close to areas further east:

https://i.imgur.com/6u6SkKb.png


Any DNA results from there? Also Meck-Pomm is interesting.

Mecklenburg-Vorpommern is a mix with some locals being genetically East German and some NW German:
(I suppose that the ones who fall into the NW German cluster are descended from immigrants after 1648)

https://i.imgur.com/cC0uU6Y.png

[SharpFork]

I have some samples from Thüringen and Sachsen-Anhalt and they are part of the East German cluster.

In Lukasz's PCA these two regions are also part of the East German cluster, close to areas further east:



Mecklenburg-Vorpommern is a mix with some locals being genetically East German and some NW German:
(I suppose that the ones who fall into the NW German cluster are descended from immigrants after 1648)

I don't think that theory makes sense, there is nothing special about 1648 immigrants, they would have mixed by now as well.

[Peterski]

If you use Swedish instead of the medieval German samples you get smaller Sorb influence

But why should we use Swedes, if we know that they did not participate in the Ostsiedlung, at least not in Sachsen?

And the "German_East" sample on Global25 (8 samples in total) is from Leipzig in Sachsen, far from the Baltic coast.

DEU MA (medieval Germany) are Early Medieval samples of the Baiuvarii and the Alemanni from Germanic row graves.


I don't think that theory makes sense, there is nothing special about 1648 immigrants, they would have mixed by now as well.

I'm not saying that people from the same county are going to have different results (some East German, some NW German).

But it differs from county to county and from town to town depending on what was the proportion of Slavic locals to Ostsiedlung settlers, and on how depopulated each area got in 1618-1648, and also how many new immigrants came after that (most of those new immigrants came from Schleswig and Lower Saxony).

Degree of depopulation during the Thirty Years' War (as you can see in some areas even 2/3 of pre-1618 inhabitants died):

https://i.imgur.com/7vRY2ce.jpg

[SharpFork]

Still I don't see why settlers from after 1648 would stand out, they would have intermixed with the locals as well. I think it could be just "attrition", basically recent short distance migrations from Holstein and Lower Saxony.

[Peterski]

GEDmatch results of a German with all ancestors from areas of Mecklenburg between Schwerin and Neustadt:

In Eurogenes K15, top 5 results in Mixed Mode:

1 56.4% West_Norwegian + 43.6% Russian_Smolensk @2.04
2 61.9% Norwegian + 38.1% Russian_Smolensk @ 2.16
3 50.1% West_Norwegian + 49.9% Polish @2.22
4 50.9% South_Polish + 49.1% West_Norwegian @2.25
5 55.7% Norwegian + 44.3% Polish @2.26

For comparison, GEDmatch results of a German with 7/8 ancestors from Hamburg and 1/8 from East Prussia:

Eurogenes K15 Mixed Mode:

1 61.8% West_Norwegian + 38.2% Swedish @1.71
2 94.3% West_Norwegian + 5.7% Belorussian @1.74
3 94.7% West_Norwegian + 5.3% Lithuanian @1.74
4 94.4% West_Norwegian + 5.6% Estonian_Polish @1.74
5 94.3% West_Norwegian + 5.7% Russian_Smolensk @1.76
6 94.5% West_Norwegian + 5.5% Ukrainian_Belgorod @1.77
7 93.5% West_Norwegian + 6.5% Polish @1.77
8 94.5% West_Norwegian + 5.5% Southwest_Russian @1.79
9 93.5% West_Norwegian + 6.5% Estonian @1.8
10 93.5% West_Norwegian + 6.5% South_Polish @1.81

Hamburg German is way more Germanic than the one from Schwerin-Neustadt, despite recent Masurian admix.


Still I don't see why settlers from after 1648 would stand out

I noticed there is a correlation between toponyms and the amount of Slavic Y-DNA and autosomal admixture.

For example Rostock has ca. 32,4% of R1a but Greifswald (located to the east of Rostock) has only 19,2% of R1a.

The region of Rostock (Slavic name: Roztoka) has more toponyms of Slavic origin than the region of Greifswald.

Proportions of Slavic to Germanic toponyms in several areas (Rügen has the highest % of Slavic toponyms):

area around Greifswald - 11,88% / 88,12%
area around Grimmen - 36,58% / 63,42%
area around Franzburg - 32,51% / 67,49%
the island of Rügen - 79,21% / 20,79%

BTW in large parts of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern Slavic language was still spoken in the 1500s and 1600s (map):

https://i.imgur.com/e4hfm2Q.png

[SharpFork]

BTW in large parts of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern Slavic language was still spoken in the 1500s and 1600s (map):

This map is made up, nowhere else I've seen stuff like this or supporting such extensive presence of Slavs, this map is a better approximation for the 16th century:

https://i.imgur.com/CRKowZA.png

[Peterski]

This map is made up, nowhere else I've seen stuff like this or supporting such extensive presence of Slavs

That map was based on research made by Polish historian Adam Sengebusch (nickname "Bazyli"), you can download his articles which include that map here:

http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=68470&st=0

Greek traveller Laskaros Kananou visited Lübeck in 1438-1439 and confirmed that Slavic language was still spoken by people living in villages around Lübeck:

https://i.imgur.com/YzBMHHM.png

https://i.imgur.com/otfFI1n.png

^^^
He called the area around Lübeck Σθλαβουνία (Slavunia) and wrote that people there spoke the same language as the Zygiotes (Slavic tribe in Greece):

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?217366-Northern-influence-in-Greeks/page7&p=4572604#post4572604

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?248977-Can-someone-translate-this-Greek-text-to-English&p=5423759&viewfull=1#post5423759

[Peterski]

In Mecklenburg Slavic language probably got extinct during the Thrity Year's War or shortly later.

On the other hand, in this area west of the Elbe, Slavic continued to be spoken long after 1648:

https://i.imgur.com/QtINwkP.png

^^^
From my article about Hanoverian Wendland:

"Early Modern Period

As of 1600, Hanoverian Wends inhabited an area of ~350 square miles (~900 square km), including over 120 villages, as well as in several towns (but in towns they were usually a minority, outnumbered by Germans). Their population at that time can be estimated as around 15,000-20,000 people - about as numerous as Finnic-speaking Livs (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livonians) were at the time. Slavic-speaking population inhabited such villages as Belitz, Beutow, Jabel, Klennow, Kremlin, Mammoißel, Predöhlsau, Lensian, Reetze, Süthen, Volzendorf, Küsten, Trebel, Dolgow, Suhlendorf and many others.[3][4] Their settlements were often villages with distinct circular shape, the Rundling form, easy to distinguish from German villages founded during the Ostsiedlung. In the 18th century, economic prosperity in Wendland led to the increase of the number of blacksmith workshops, cooper workshops, wheelwright workshops and other enterprises. Flax started to be farmed, as well as potatoes introduced from the Americas. Sheep farming increased.

During the 17th and 18th centuries - later than their German neighbours - Wendlanders started to convert to Lutheranism. That facilitated the process of Germanization and gradual disappearance of the distinct ethnic identity of Hanoverian Wends as well as their Slavic language. Numerous German loanwords appeared.[5]

The process of language shift started to take place.

The richest source of information on the Drawänopolabian language is the "Vocabularium Venedicum" of Christian Hennig von Jessen (1649-1719), who was the Lutheran pastor of Wustrow since 1679 until his death. He learned the language mainly from Johann Janieschge, a peasant from the village of Klennow.[6] Johann Parum Schultze (1677-1740) is the only Hanoverian Wend who speaks to us directly in the name of his people. He wrote memoirs of his life in the Wendland, as well as a Wendish-German dictionary, which was later published by J. H. Jungler (1758-1812), who was researching the language and culture of Wendland.

Germanization

Throughout the 18th century, native Slavic (Wendish) speech in Wendland and Drawehn was already in full decline, being replaced by German.

It is not clear when did the Drawänopolabian language get extinct. Emerentz Schultze, who died in Dolgau in October 1756, is said to be one of the last native speakers fully fluent in the language. But in 1798 in the village of Kremlin (north-west of Dolgau) died a man named Warratz, who had been capable of reciting the Lord's Prayer in Wendish. In 1832, "Neues vaterländisches Archiv" - a local newspaper - reported that some old peasants in the region could still speak Slavic.[1] Similar rumours appeared again in 1845, and then in the second half of the 19th century in the area of Salzwedel. Ethnographer F. Tetzner in 1902 learned from an old teacher, that in Küsten near Lüchow some Slavic phrases, sayings and sentences were still in use in everyday language. In the census of 1890 in Kreis Lüchow, 585 people still declared their ethnicity as Wendish.[7]

Norwegian scientist E. Westerlund, who came to Wendland in 1914 to research the language of local populace, found only German-speakers."

[SharpFork]

That map was based on research made by Polish historian Adam Sengebusch (nickname "Bazyli"), you can download his articles which include that map here:

http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=68470&st=0

Greek traveller Laskaros Kananou visited Lübeck in 1438-1439 and confirmed that Slavic language was still spoken by people living in villages around Lübeck:


^^^
He called the area around Lübeck Σθλαβουνία (Slavunia) and wrote that people there spoke the same language as the Zygiotes (Slavic tribe in Greece):

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?217366-Northern-influence-in-Greeks/page7&p=4572604#post4572604

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?248977-Can-someone-translate-this-Greek-text-to-English&p=5423759&viewfull=1#post5423759
Not sure I would be able to read it but the book "Grenzräume und Grenzüberschreitungen im Vergleich" and its source claim that the Germanization process ended in Rügen around the early 15th century and in Mecklenburg in the mid 16th century.

[Peterski]

(...)

Bazyli researched, among other sources, documents mentioning given names used by inhabitants. If they used Slavic given names, it indicates they still could speak Slavic. Some examples of Slavic given names (testifying to the continued use of Slavic language) from Mecklenburg-Vorpommern from the 15th - 17th centuries:



Bartke (Bartek), Stouicke (Stawik), Bardißke (Bartosz), Letke (Letak), Dusiug (Duszyk), Kroll (Król), Glemmeke (Glinka), Cyppute (Szelest), Pentmyl (Pętomił), Loske (Liszka), Sentke (Zętek), Glaueke (Gławik), Jenderan (Henryk-Jan), Podeyne (Potajny), Gotke, Promoysel (Przemysł), Pestrych (Pstrych), Breseke (Brzóska), Darinck (Dar), Draffanicke (Drewnik), Glafvatze (Głowacz), Guowst (Chwost), Haban, Hanyske (Mały Jan), Jesker (Iskra), Karuak (Garbak), Bantze (Panicz), Ventzan (Węcan), Klackun, Kowucke (Kawka), Labbuen (Luboń), Luschen (Łysek), Maneke (Manik/Człowieczek), Myleke (Miłek), Mowseke (Myszek), Prettun (Przesieka), Proske (Proszko), Rymmatze (Rębacz), Rybe (Ryba), Rubeke (Rybak), Rutzeke (Rostek ), Seueke (Żywik), Szedelke (Sedełko), Szibelike (Siwulik), Tzamme (Samo), Tzygen (Cygan), Wyseke (Wyszek), Guthan (Godny), Liste (Liść), Ribeke (Rybak), Zentke (Zętek), Santke (Świątek), Janeke (Janik), Krull (Król), Mankatz (Miękacz), Preen (Przem), Pantzk (Paniczyk), Schure (Szczur/Chomik), Symeke (Szymek), Vrile (Wrył), Glemmeke (Glinka), Janeke (Janik), Jastram (Jastrząb), Jessel (Jesion), Milatze (Miłacz), Pandeke (Pątnik), Tetze (Teczo), Bannita (Panika), Germatze (Jarmacza), Ploisa (Błożo), Podeya (Budeja), Jezeke (Jeżyk), Phaske (Waszek), Screptze (Skrabek), Jolp (Chłop), Sloyss (Śliż), Crafake (Garbacz), Kupisz (Kuba), Moltke (Młotek), Pusterit (Ciemny), Balyke (Balik), Pollen (Boleń), Ginap (Henryczek), Lobeke (Lubik), Techan (Ciechan), Tzart (Czart), Brassche, Jatzebuk, Kouchel, Marseel, Pixleff, Pulße, Tzentke, Vrassch, Woppoyseke, etc.

Examples of Slavic names from Poel island near Wismar from the 14th - 16th centuries:

Boye, Gollwitz, Techan, Hinze son of Techan, Jakub Tesseke, Nicolaus Slavus, Markward Wend, Martin Knese, Jan Buk

*Quote: [I]"1326 - Nicolaus Slavus hat 2 Hufen in Niendorf, 1329 - Markward Went hat 1 Hufe in Vorwerk"

Examples of Slavs with Non-Slavic given names but nicknames indicating their Slavicness:

- Gerd Wend from Wismar (who bought a plot of urban land in Wismar in 1294)
- Heinrich Slavus (who bought a house in the city of Rostock in the 1290s)

=====

Examples of 16th century and 17th century people with Slavic given names or/and surnames from Usedom:

Mileszko de Usedom, Wentzek de Usedom, Chim Radwan, Jakob Tesch, Martin Radesz, Joachim Tesch, Jacob Suhr, Jochim Loyse, Hans Krulle, Boldiahn (Bielan), Loyße (Liszka), Peter Rumick, Hans Rääs, Siritz Koos, Peter Wyß, Kores Wüs, Sverin Resch, Martin Rääs (surname comes from a Slavic verb), Jacob Such (Żuk), Marten Wys (Wysz), Jacom Laban, Hans Knesem, Marten Suck, Petter Bugislaff, Michael Koos, Jacom May, Martin Janik, Michel Binik, Gottfried Wilik, Michael Masch, Peter Radz, Jochom Menik, Jacob Golas, Hans Golas, Michael Barnhey (Bortaj) and Hindrik Barnhey (Bortaj).

17th and 18th century marriage records from Benz, Usedom, reveal surnames of Slavic origin, for example:

Tönies Puntzke + Maria Schmied (1646), Jochim Wend + Ilse Labehn and Michel Pansche + Engel Timmecke (1651), Thies Kucke + Engel Labehn (1653) and Peter Krull + Barbe Wilcken (1680), Michel Wend + Trina (1671), Jacob Kreßmer + Sophia Knust (1676), Tiesa Kercke + Emmerentz Fincke (1683) and Michel Janße + Ilse Stromberg (1703). Zabel Kutze + Maria Schmed (1681), Jacob Utesse + Ilse Kusenow (1686), Niclas Stancke + Marentz Rese (1699), Jochena Jancke + Maria Riemer (1702)

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Slavic given names and nicknames/surnames of nobles of the Principality of Ruegen, 13th - 16th centuries:

Chocian, Nikolaus son of Jeroslaw de Kalant, Unislaw, Guslavus Oblitz, Bispravus, Sleomarus, Domaslaus, Geomarus, Guslavus de Barth, Mateus Moltike, Johanus Cule, Paulus son of Bartusz, Thezemarus, Nazemarus, Bartold Soneke, Heinrich Unka, Volradus Dargatz, Raven known as Boe, Hinricus Dars, Nicolaus and Tetze de Putbuske, Jareko de Ghudzekow, Pritbor de Lanka, Pritbur de Vilmnitz, Boranta de Vilmnytz, Darghemer de Jasmunt, Dubslavus Smantevitz :cool:, Jan and Sulislaw Nacewitz, Pribislaw Nacewitz, Dubbeslaf Smantewitze :cool:, Sulleslavus Sunnevytze, Dubbermar, Sulleslaw von Schele, Prybe von Schele, Gamba, Sum vel Tzum.

In year 1496 there was a guy named Stoislaus de Kaland living in Ruegen.

And a noble lady from Ruegen - Cezyslava (Cieszka), owner of Gustekow.

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- Laskaris Kananos (1438-1439): wrote that Slavic language was still widely spoken in the regiom of Slavunia, the main city of which was Lübeck;

- Jan Długosz (1455-1480): wrote that Slavic was the main language in areas of Bukow (Bukkow), Dobin, Mikelburg, Lunemburg, Aldemburg, Raceburg (Raczesburg), Sigeburg, Plunen, Ilow, Zwerin, Malechow, Rostek, Kuczyn, Werlem, and other parts of Mecklenburg-Vorpommern.

- Nicolaus Marschalk Thurius (1521): wrote that inhabitants of Jabelhaide were at that time still Slavic by language and culture;

- Marcin Kromer (1565): wrote that German counties located along the Baltic coast, including Lueneburgian counties and those in the Margraviate of Brandenburg, were still largely inhabited by "Slovaks", who spoke "the same language as Poles, but mixed with German language";

- David Frank in "Alt und neues Meklemburg" (1753), published in Güstrow-Leipzig, wrote that people in the regions of Sternberg and Grabow until that time (year 1753) preserved their Slavic culture, but not their Slavic language - which had already ceased to be spoken in that region by then.

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Documents from years 1626 and 1636 indicate that Slavic language in Ruegen was still spoken at that time in these villages:

Grieben, Bohlendorf, Lobkevitz, Vitte, Glowe, Salsitz, Lohme, Klein Zitzewitz, Polchow, Stedar, Jarnitz, Dartzow, Poseritz, Nedarnitz, Drewoldke, Losentiztz, Wieke, Dumsevitz, Tilzow, Sehlen, Strussendorf, Bublevitz, Reetz, Schaprode, Murswiek, Lüsnevitz, Boldevitz, Granitz, Kotevitz, Rantze, Grabow

=====

In 1847 Polish traveller Wincent Pol visited Mönchgut Peninsula of the island of Ruegen and noted that its inhabitants - despite speaking a local dialect of German - still considered themselves to be a separate ethnic group, called "Reboken" - which sounds like rybacy (fishers in Polish).

Pol also recorded that their local German dialect included some clearly Slavic words - he wrote them down: reba, morie, zywot (life), ziemia (earth), niebo (sky), chmara, drel, mleko (milk), tata (father), dziewa (girl), perekop, Bóg (God), chata (home), piorun, woda (water), and several more.

[Peterski]

Krampitz (Krępice) in Lower Silesia, in the 15th century the area was still not Germanized according to Karl Weinhold (1887):

https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_CqpCAAAAIAAJ

"Die Bauernnamen aus Krampitz in Urkunden des 15. Jahrhunderts machen noch einen ganz polnischen Eindruck":

https://i.imgur.com/dlivWRh.png

https://i.imgur.com/KT8GiUE.jpg

[Jana]

For example Rostock has ca. 32,4% of R1a but Greifswald (located to the east of Rostock) has only 19,2% of R1a.

The region of Rostock (Slavic name: Roztoka) has more toponyms of Slavic origin than the region of Greifswald.

Proportions of Slavic to Germanic toponyms in several areas (Rügen has the highest % of Slavic toponyms):
area around Greifswald - 11,88% / 88,12%



Toni Kroos is from Greifswald. Passes for northern Pole or too German looking ? His surname is Dutch-sounding.

http://aisvip-a.akamaihd.net/masters/1155431/fussballer-toni-kroos-ist-zum-dritten-mal-vater-geworden.jpg
https://img.bleacherreport.net/img/images/photos/003/696/017/hi-res-585d6e950a529b51fa48c2cb1aeac4b7_crop_north.jpg?h= 533&w=800&q=70&crop_x=center&crop_y=top

[Peterski]

Not sure I would be able to read it but the book "Grenzräume und Grenzüberschreitungen im Vergleich" and its source claim that the Germanization process ended in Rügen around the early 15th century and in Mecklenburg in the mid 16th century.

Here the most relevant part with data for Mecklenburg. Based on documents from 1580s (so after mid 16th century):

List of areas (Amt) with confirmed presence of Slavic-speaking inhabitants at the turns of 16th-17th centuries:

Liczba miejscowości = number of settlements with Slavic inhabitants located within areas of jurisdiction for each Amt:

https://i.imgur.com/lo78bbu.png

https://i.imgur.com/EJckdsb.png

Also links to download his articles in PDF:

Polabian Slavs, part 1, Veleti & Obodrites - 91091
Polabian Slavs, part 2, Rujanen (Ranowie) - 91093
Polabian Slavs, part 3, Drevanen (Drevani) - 91094 - the map I posted is here on page 73 (last)

[SharpFork]

Honestly I don't particularly care about the specific argument used, I trust the sources I have given they are more and are more consistent with one another building up a far better model than this one. T

[Leto]

He fits in Central Europe perfectly.

@Peterski, do you think Czechs are basically like 'East Germans' (whatever area that is)?

[SharpFork]

Here is the most relevant part for Mecklenburg. Based on documents from 1580s (so after mid 16th century):

List of settlements with confirmed presence of Slavic-speaking inhabitants at the turns of 16th/17th centuries:

https://i.imgur.com/lo78bbu.png

https://i.imgur.com/EJckdsb.png

91091
91093
91094
Eh? Does this and the map count every settlemetn with just one Slavic or somehow construable Slavic named person?

[Peterski]

Honestly I don't particularly care about the specific argument used, I trust the sources I have given they are more and are more consistent with one another building up a far better model than this one.

Sengebusch used documents from archives in Feldberg written in year 1585. Why do you think your sources make more sense than documents?

In my opinion it makes perfect sense that the last Slavic speakers in Mecklenburg died after 1618 - when the majority of region's population died.

BTW, here is the map for Boizenburg area - years in brackets indicate the last year when documents mention inhabitants with Slavic given names:

https://i.imgur.com/yQfjDTB.png


@Peterski, do you think Czechs are basically like 'East Germans' (whatever area that is)?

You can see here that Czechs are significantly more Slavic than their former neighbours, Sudetenland Germans:

Look where "Czechs" plot and where "Sudetenland" plots:

https://i.imgur.com/6u6SkKb.png

[Peterski]

Obviously this works assuming Dutch and Swedes work as proxy of Germans without much Slavic influence and the Sorb sample as a proxy of West Slavs without German admixture.

I don't think that you can use Swedes as a proxy for Germans without much of Slavic influence.

On the other hand this Sorb does look like a good proxy for Proto-West Slavic (west of the Vistula).

This Sorb sample plots in the middle of the Polish cluster - more Slavic than Western and Southern Poles, but less Slavic than Eastern Poles.

This is in agreement with Sorbian reference in MDLP calculators, which is also like Central Poles:

For example in MDLP K23b calculator:

Lusatian Sorbs (average / reference):

European_Hunters_Gatherers 53.33
Caucasian 27.32
European_Early_Farmers 11.27
(...)

Central Polish (one sample / example):

European_Hunters_Gatherers 52.57
Caucasian 28.1
European_Early_Farmers 11.09
(...)

Western Polish (one sample / example1):

European_Hunters_Gatherers 48.00
Caucasian 28.53
European_Early_Farmers 14.71
(...)

Western Polish (one sample / example2):

European_Hunters_Gatherers 48.61
Caucasian 27.23
European_Early_Farmers 13.91
(...)

Grand Duchy of Lithuania ethnic Pole*:

European_Hunters_Gatherers 60.88
Caucasian 31.18
Near_East 2.59
European_Early_Farmers 2.45
(...)

*This is EastPole from another forum (he lives in Szczecin, but his parents had ancestors from areas A and B in the map below):

http://i.imgur.com/luLrkpU.png

^^^ His DNA Land results:

http://i.imgur.com/ToizhzM.png

[SharpFork]

The point is that Slavic names could be used far beyond the time when the Slavic language is stopped being used, on top of that this approach is not able to account for migration between villages which would make Slavic radiate out of the actual pockets where it is actually spoken.

[Leto]

I don't think that you can use Swedes as a proxy for Germans without much of Slavic influence.

On the other hand this Sorb does look like a good proxy for Proto-West Slavic (west of the Vistula).

This Sorb sample plots in the middle of the Polish cluster - more Slavic than Western and Southern Poles, but less Slavic than Eastern Poles.

This is in agreement with Sorbian reference in MDLP calculators, which is also like Central Poles:

For example in MDLP K23b calculator:

Lusatian Sorbs (average / reference):

European_Hunters_Gatherers 53.33
Caucasian 27.32
European_Early_Farmers 11.27
(...)

Central Polish (one sample / example):

European_Hunters_Gatherers 52.57
Caucasian 28.1
European_Early_Farmers 11.09
(...)

Western Polish (one sample / example1):

European_Hunters_Gatherers 48.00
Caucasian 28.53
European_Early_Farmers 14.71
(...)

Western Polish (one sample / example2):

European_Hunters_Gatherers 48.61
Caucasian 27.23
European_Early_Farmers 13.91
(...)

Grand Duchy of Lithuania ethnic Pole*:

European_Hunters_Gatherers 60.88
Caucasian 31.18
Near_East 2.59
European_Early_Farmers 2.45
(...)

*This is EastPole from another forum (he lives in Szczecin, but his parents had ancestors from areas A and B in the map below):

[http://i.imgur.com/luLrkpU.png

^^^ His DNA Land results:

http://i.imgur.com/ToizhzM.png
My father's (Mostly Belarusian + some Bel Polish and Slavic Russian)

1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 53.89
2 Caucasian 27.45
3 European_Early_Farmers 8.65

My sister's husband (a mix of Northern and Western/Central Russian)

1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 50
2 Caucasian 26.27
3 European_Early_Farmers 10.1

[Leto]

Czech MDLP K23b average by the way

European_Hunters_Gatherers 44.43
Caucasian 28.24
European_Early_Farmers 15.25

Slovak

European_Hunters_Gatherers 47.27
Caucasian 27.96
European_Early_Farmers 13.69

[Kyp]

Any chance to see the results from Thüringen? (Eurogenes)

[rothaer]

Here the most relevant part with data for Mecklenburg. Based on documents from 1580s (so after mid 16th century):

List of areas (Amt) with confirmed presence of Slavic-speaking inhabitants at the turns of 16th-17th centuries:

Liczba miejscowości = number of settlements with Slavic inhabitants located within areas of jurisdiction for each Amt:

https://i.imgur.com/lo78bbu.png

https://i.imgur.com/EJckdsb.png

Also links to download his articles in PDF:

Polabian Slavs, part 1, Veleti & Obodrites - 91091
Polabian Slavs, part 2, Rujanen (Ranowie) - 91093
Polabian Slavs, part 3, Drevanen (Drevani) - 91094 - the map I posted is here on page 73 (last)

I´m very doubtful about if you can conclude active Slavic speakers from Slavic first names. I once reported traditional first name Bogislav of Northeastern German (Pomeranian) nobles till today. This ist used centuries - or half a milleniem - after Slavic language was not spoken anymore.
From this point of view it´s well possible, not to say likely, also Mecklenburg commoners were named after their parents and grandparents, maybe even a number of generations after end of usage of Slavic language.

You can compare to Longobards. Paulus Diaconus alias Paul Warnefried (the latter a pure Germanic/German first name) is NOT considered to be able to speak Longobard / old high German language. Longobard/German first names were used centuries after romanisation of Longobards.

This means "confirmed presence of Slavic-speaking inhabitants" is not correct. This is actually not confirmed by the Slavic first names.

[SharpFork]

I´m very doubtful about if you can conclude active Slavic speakers from Slavic first names. I once reported traditional first name Bogislav of Northeastern German (Pomeranian) nobles till today. This ist used centuries - or half a milleniem - after Slavic language was not spoken anymore.
From this point of view it´s well possible, not to say likely, also Mecklenburg commoners were named after their parents and grandparents, maybe even a number of generations after end of usage of Slavic language.

You can compare to Longobards. Paulus Diaconus alias Paul Warnefried (the latter a pure Germanic/German first name) is NOT considered to be able to speak Longobard / old high German language. Longobard/German first names were used centuries after romanisation of Longobards.

This means "confirmed presence of Slavic-speaking inhabitants" is not correct. This is actually not confirmed by the Slavic first names.
On top of that it's important to actually differentiate between the degrees of presence, obviously a settlement with majority recorded names being Slavic would be a stronger argument for a strong Slavic presence than isolated presence.

[Peterski]

the book "Grenzräume und Grenzüberschreitungen im Vergleich" and its source claim that the Germanization process ended in Rügen around the early 15th century and in Mecklenburg in the mid 16th century.

^^^
How did they establish that, based on which sources?

BTW, here is English translation of Laskaris Kananos:

http://hellenisteukontos.blogspot.com/2009/09/islante-island-of-fish-eaters.html?m=1


Lascaris Cananus wrote a page about his visit to Lithuania, Sweden, Denmark, and Iceland in the 15th century; the date seems to be 1438–1439. I knew about this text for a very long time, because it features in histories of the Greek language. It features in histories of the Greek language because it includes a single throwaway line, indicating that Slavonic was still spoken in the Southern Peloponnese in the 15th century, by the Zygiotai (who lived on the Zygos, the "yoke", of Mt Taygetus).

(...)

"After this is the country of Slavonia (Σθλαβουνία), which has a capital called Lubeck (Λούπηκ). From this country the Zygiotai (Ζυγιῶται) in the Peloponnese have originated, because there is a large number of small towns [in Slavonia], where they speak the dialect of the Zygiotai. Next to that country is the country of Denmark, which has a city called Copenhagen (Κουπανάβη). It serves as the residence of the King of Denmark."

=====

BTW, there is anecdotal evidence that "Reboken" (fishermen) near Sassnitz (Jasmund Peninsula, Rügen) could still speak Slavic as late 1890:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasmund

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sassnitz

https://i.imgur.com/qzAWA0s.png

Source:

"Ziemia gromadzi prochy" (the book published in 1938, in which the author described his travelling in East Germany in 1937-1938), page 150.

=====

Around 80% of all toponyms on Rugen have Slavic origin, and the Ostsiedlung barely touched the island.

Someone should DNA test people native to Rugen, and especially old villagers/fishermen from Jasmund Peninsula and from Mönchgut Peninsula.

Even blood markers indicate, that the population there is different than neighbouring Germanic-speakers:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14717531

"Abstract - 24 haemogenetic markers (5 erythrocyte antigens, 7 polymorphisms of serum proteins, 12 polymorphisms of red cell enzymes) had been studied in 171 individuals from the island of Rügen (Germany, Baltic Sea). The cluster analysis separates clearly the Rügen sample just as the islands of Hiddensee and Ummanz from the neighbouring populations. The comparison of the data with neighboured larger populations as for instance Denmark, Hamburg or Sweden clearly results in an exceptional position of the island of Rügen. The possible reasons are discussed. (...)"

This may be the last remnant of pure Polabian Slavic genetics (Sorbs are a different branch of West Slavs).

This, and possibly also some old people in Hanoverian Wendland.

=====
=====

To sum up:

Mönchgut Peninsula - fishermen who still knew some Slavic words were reported there in 1847
Jasmund Peninsula - fishermen who still understood & replied in Slavic were reported in 1890s

https://i.imgur.com/M8RMlAm.png

Germans would not notice, because they didn't speak to those fishermen in Slavic, so they did not reply in Slavic either (I'm sure they were bilingual).

But Polish travellers/tourists who visited, reported that they could communicate with "Reboken" in Slavic.

[Leto]

"sample": "GER_Sachsen-Anhalt:Average",
"fit": 1.5575,
"GER_Nordrhein-Westfalen": 65.83,
"PL_Lublin": 34.17

"sample": "GER_Thüringen:Average",
"fit": 1.5822,
"GER_Nordrhein-Westfalen": 57.5,
"PL_Lublin": 42.5

"sample": "GER_Brandenburg:Average",
"fit": 0.8479,
"PL_Lublin": 57.5,
"GER_Nordrhein-Westfalen": 42.5

"sample": "GER_Sachsen:Average",
"fit": 1.0262,
"GER_Nordrhein-Westfalen": 51.67,
"PL_Lublin": 48.33

"sample": "GER_Central_Ost_Preussen:Average",
"fit": 1.4541,
"GER_Nordrhein-Westfalen": 55,
"PL_Lublin": 45

"sample": "GER_Nieder-Schlesien:Average",
"fit": 1.6241,
"PL_Lublin": 53.33,
"GER_Nordrhein-Westfalen": 46.67

"sample": "PL_Upper_Silesia:Average",
"fit": 1.1285,
"PL_Lublin": 82.5,
"GER_Nordrhein-Westfalen": 17.5

"sample": "Czechs:Average",
"fit": 1.1183,
"PL_Lublin": 66.67,
"GER_Nordrhein-Westfalen": 33.33

[Peterski]

^^^ I wonder where exactly within Lower Silesia are Lukasz's Silesian German kits from? I also have some Lower Silesian samples.

For example, this is a German with all ancestry (based on GEDCOM) from areas near Brieg, close to eastern border of Lower Silesia:

Duchy of Brieg (one of Lower Silesian duchies): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Brzeg

https://i.imgur.com/t363O92.png

^^^
His Eurogenes K13 results:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 36.33
2 North_Atlantic 34.34
3 West_Med 12.87
4 West_Asian 6.99
5 East_Med 6.65
6 Amerindian 0.85
7 South_Asian 0.6
8 Northeast_African 0.47
9 Oceanian 0.34
10 Siberian 0.31
11 Sub-Saharan 0.23
12 East_Asian 0.01

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 East_German 5.02
2 Hungarian 5.56
3 South_Polish 6.35
4 Austrian 6.81
5 Croatian 7
6 Ukrainian_Lviv 8.22
7 Ukrainian 8.82
8 Polish 9.57
9 Moldavian 10.19
10 Southwest_Finnish 12
11 North_Swedish 12.03
12 Southwest_Russian 12.95
13 Russian_Smolensk 12.99
14 Ukrainian_Belgorod 13.22
15 Serbian 13.43
16 Estonian_Polish 13.64
17 Belorussian 13.72
18 North_German 14.06
19 Swedish 14.4
20 West_German 14.7

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 73.1% East_German + 26.9% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 1.35
2 70.2% South_Polish + 29.8% West_German @ 1.36
3 72.8% East_German + 27.2% Southwest_Russian @ 1.41
4 56.3% East_German + 43.7% South_Polish @ 1.42
5 51.8% South_Polish + 48.2% Austrian @ 1.55
6 58.8% Austrian + 41.2% Polish @ 1.58
7 71.7% South_Polish + 28.3% South_Dutch @ 1.58
8 62.7% Ukrainian + 37.3% West_German @ 1.58
9 64.7% East_German + 35.3% Ukrainian @ 1.67
10 73% Austrian + 27% Lithuanian @ 1.74
11 66.2% Austrian + 33.8% Russian_Smolensk @ 1.84
12 64.4% Ukrainian + 35.6% South_Dutch @ 1.84
13 76.3% South_Polish + 23.7% French @ 1.85
14 67.3% Austrian + 32.7% Estonian_Polish @ 1.86
15 56.8% Austrian + 43.2% Ukrainian @ 1.9
16 73.5% East_German + 26.5% Russian_Smolensk @ 1.95
17 63.4% East_German + 36.6% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 1.96
18 66.3% Austrian + 33.7% Southwest_Russian @ 1.98
19 67% East_German + 33% Polish @ 1.98
20 60.9% Polish + 39.1% West_German @ 2.01

Similarity Map:

https://i.imgur.com/E51tdXY.png

[SharpFork]

^^^
How did they establish that, based on which sources?
I don't know but I don't have to, I trust those authorities more especially considering the arguments mentioned by the sources you provide are pretty poor at best, either extremely isolated anecdotes that are not supported by evidence(contradicted by the same kind of arguments you use to support later Slavic persistence) or weak arguments built upon flawed premises(presence of some Slavic names->majority slavic regions).



Mönchgut Peninsula - fishermen who still knew some Slavic words were reported there in 1847
Jasmund Peninsula - fishermen who still understood & replied in Slavic were reported in 1890s
Apparently they were never recorded before then for 4 centuries? Really? How could they be bilingual for 4-5 centuries to the point that nobody would notice them?



But Polish travellers/tourists who visited, reported that they could communicate with "Reboken" in Slavic.
2 unlikely anecdotes, as I understood there is this claim that Ranian died in 1404 and itcomes from Thomas Kantzow, a chronicler who actually lived in Pommerania in the early 16th centuries and wrote about the history of the region including Slavs, if somehow Slavic survived on the island he surely would have known, no? Especially considering he explicitly mentioend the Jasmund peninsula as the place where the last person died. I find more likely that for the second case the family either found some local migrants or made it up(wouldn't surprise me), especially considering even the Slavic onomastic evidence seems to indicate an end around the 17th century if we take that route.

Do I trust the historian guy who lived near the period when the Slavic past was more near and he lived around the region and explicitly wrote about it and its past or one dude with a 2nd hand information which is ridiculous in of itself(late 19th century isolated fishermen able to speak with Poles after being bilingual for 4-5 centuries)



Around 80% of all toponyms on Rugen have Slavic origin, and the Ostsiedlung barely touched the island.
Apparently it did in some way given a prominent historian and chronicle around the region in the 16th century found Slavic to be so dead as to have been dead for more than a century by then. If it actually survived then it would have a minority in a place with already few people, but i don't see the evidence for that.

[Leto]

60.9% Polish + 39.1% West_German @ 2.01

Indeed "mongrelized". More Slavic than Germanic in terms of ancestry.

[Peterski]

60.9% Polish + 39.1% West_German @ 2.01

70.2% South_Polish + 29.8% West_German @ 1.36

This one is a better fit, Silesia is in Southern Poland.


I´m very doubtful about if you can conclude active Slavic speakers from Slavic first names. I once reported traditional first name Bogislav of Northeastern German (Pomeranian) nobles till today. This ist used centuries - or half a milleniem - after Slavic language was not spoken anymore.
From this point of view it´s well possible, not to say likely, also Mecklenburg commoners were named after their parents and grandparents, maybe even a number of generations after end of usage of Slavic language.

You can compare to Longobards. Paulus Diaconus alias Paul Warnefried (the latter a pure Germanic/German first name) is NOT considered to be able to speak Longobard / old high German language. Longobard/German first names were used centuries after romanisation of Longobards.

This means "confirmed presence of Slavic-speaking inhabitants" is not correct. This is actually not confirmed by the Slavic first names.


especially considering the arguments mentioned by the sources you provide are pretty poor at best

He actually responded to similar criticism already in discussion on Polish forum. There is a difference between knights/nobles and simple peasants.

Simple peasants are not going to have Slavic given names, unless they speak Slavic. Here is how he responded to that criticism (my translation):

"Among upper classes it is possible that tradition could cause continuation of Slavic given names even when those people no longer spoke Slavic, but among lower classes (peasants and townsmen) tradition of Slavic names lasted only until Germanization of the population (16th-17th centuries)."

And we have sources from the 2nd half of the 16th century which mention existence of Slavic-speakers in Mecklenburg.

For example M. Kromer mentioned that some areas Mecklenburg and Vorpommern had Slavic-speakers in year 1565.


I once reported traditional first name Bogislav of Northeastern German (Pomeranian) nobles till today

Among nobles, not among simple peasants.

Your Longobard examples also refer to elites, who remembered about their origins much longer than simple people.

[SharpFork]

You still didn't address whether those settlements with Slavic names were counted because they had any Slavic names at all or because they had it in substantial or sizeable numbers. It changes a lot.

[Peterski]

Apparently it did in some way

On Rugen, it was a language shift triggered mainly by the church (sermons in German) and by prince's decision to make German the official language.

The number of actual Germans who came to the island was very low.


as I understood there is this claim that Ranian died in 1404 and it comes from Thomas Kantzow

Here is what the author of the article wrote about it:

"Kantzow, while describing the history of Pomerania, probably even visited Rügen personally. As a person aware of his Slavic ancestry, he often mentioned Slavs in his chronicle. However, he was first of all a member of Pomerania's upper classes, a community consisting - in his times - already only of German-speaking people.

He was spending his time among the nobles and burghers of the most important urban centers of contemporary Pomerania, which did not have - or barely had - any contact with the remnants of Slavic-speaking population.

It is certain, that Kantzow was not able to personally visit all the corners of his country, and therefore what he wrote cannot be considered as a definite proof regarding remants of Slavic-speakers, who often lived in places difficult to access and unattractive for settlement.

Moreover and importantly, it is possible that the note about the alleged last Slavic-speaking Ranian (Gulitzin), was not written by Kantzow himself, but by his continuator [who edited Kantzow's chronicle after his death] - Niklaus Klempzen. The latter did not have inclinations to be an ethnographer engaging in fieldwork.

I will add, that the death of Gulitzin in year 1404 as allegedly the last person who still spoke the Ranian variant of Slavic, would be really unusual, considering that in the 1300s Slavic language was still widespread among knights of Rugen.

From year 1401 we have a note about the owner of village Smatewitze - Dubbeslaw Smatewitze.

Other documents mention Sulleslavus Sunnevytze (1403), Dubbermar and Sulleslaw von Schelle (1403), Gambie (1451), Sum vel Tzum (1436), Stoislaus de Kaland (1496!). In the cities, we have even more evidence of Slavic population, also from the 15th century. For example Dareslaf Barnekow (1434), Radeke Gyle (1437), Radeke Krol (1426), Stannyke (1453) etc. And of course the most Slavic was the rural population...

Therefore I think that treating that note about the alleged extinction of Slavic language on Rugen in year 1404, as a 100% confirmed fact, is unsubstantiated."


You still didn't address whether those settlements with Slavic names were counted because they had any Slavic names at all or because they had it in substantial or sizeable numbers. It changes a lot.

I don't know, but I can ask him.

Edit:

I sent him a PM and asked about it.

[Peterski]

What about Slavic language in Wendland? There were also some "false alarms" there, when it comes to extinction:

1600 - there were ca. 15,000 to 20,000 Slavic-speakers
1756 - alleged extinction first reported
1798 - alleged extinction reported again
1832 - newspaper claimed there were still some speakers
1845 - again some speakers were reported
1890 census - 585 declared Wendish Muttersprache (!)
1902 - old teacher claimed some people still spoke it
1914 - only German-speakers were found

^^^
For 150 years after extinction was first reported, there were still people who spoke it or at least identified as Wends.

[rothaer]

Among nobles, not among simple peasants.

Regarding Mecklenburg I just stated this: "it´s well possible, not to say likely, also Mecklenburg commoners were named after their parents and grandparents, maybe even a number of generations after end of usage of Slavic language".

Do you regard it unlikely, recently linguistically germanised people still could name a child after their well known grandfather?

Simple people do regularly anyhow not know etymology. This means they did anyhow not reflect wether a particular first name had a Slavic or a Germanic etymology. Even today a lot of people do not know. If there was the appreciated great grandfather with that name and the name was well known, why shouldn´t they go on and call their child Tetzlaff or Tetzel?

On the other hand: In an old exploration regarding proportion of Slavic personal names (family names and first names) in Mecklenburg with the intention to estimate the proportion of Old German and Slavic ancestry (it was then expressly very roughly estimated as half and half) there can be seen an unexplained elevation of Slavic surnames compared to the centuries before in the mid of 16th century. There has been speculated by the author that might have been a (maybe conscious) trend in connection with vanishing of Slavic language.

So beside very early times of ostsiedlung the highest proportion of Slavic (sur)names actually coincides with the time of assumed vanishing of Slavic language.

This example shows interpretation of such findings in respect to usage of Slavic language is a complex task.

[Peterski]

Please check my "Sorbian challenge" here. So far, user Dick is winning (he got the best fit):

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?301008-Sorbian-challenge-on-Global25

[Sebbo]

Do we, know where exactly the samples from Thuringia and Saxony-Anhalt were from? The Limes Sorabicus runs through both of these states with the majority of both of them being West of the Elbe and Saale.

I would imagine that those areas in these states further to the east are more Slavic.

Of particular interest would be Dessau since it is one of the major cities almost equidistant between the border of the state of Brandenburg and the Saale.