Is Baltid WHG?

[Dick]

Why does it peak in the Baltic’s


Nowadays this admixture peaks among the Estonians (49.5%), Finns (47%), Lithuanians (46.5%), Icelanders (45.5%) and Orcadians (45.5%).



Only European populations show positive values of this statistic, providing evidence of WHG (Loschbour-related) admixture only in Europeans.


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/da/ff/03/daff034658206a16f4d44a7f253cfc38.png

[chociprasa]

Yes. There is a common misconception of it being a Mongoloid admixtured type.

[Snkves]

I wonder if they get more WHG or EHG on Tolan K16 Neolithic calculator.

[Pansarkamrat]

Yes Baltid comes from hunter and gatherers

[Dick]

I wonder if they get more WHG or EHG on Tolan K16 Neolithic calculator.

If that’s the case then it’s not loschbour related and that map is false

[Ymyyakhtakh]

Why does it peak in the Baltic’s

Because Northwest Europe became agricultural earlier than Northeast Europe, and it was more woggified by the ENF invasion of Europe.

https://i.imgur.com/BzyDlZi.gif

[Gaditanian]

I remember that La Brana in Spain has a great amount of WHG and was very close to Baltic people.

I think that group were crossing europe from NE to SW bordering the walls of ice of the ice age following animals to hunt

[PaleoEuropean]

Baltid is reduced Borreby, smaller stature and less robust, there is mongoloid in some variants though.

[PaleoEuropean]

Also Baltids are mixed with Alpine a lot of times

[PaleoEuropean]

* Correction, Baltid is the Continental version of Borreby not actually reduced from Borreby. I am sure some branches are derived from Borreby though, some look exactly the same just smaller heads

[Roy]

I remember that La Brana in Spain has a great amount of WHG and was very close to Baltic people.

I think that group were crossing europe from NE to SW bordering the walls of ice of the ice age following animals to hunt

How much though North-Eastern Europeans are related as in being desceneded from La Brana people is something I wonder about.

[PaleoEuropean]

How much though North-Eastern Europeans are related as in being desceneded from La Brana people is something I wonder about.

I am related to La Brana Man

[Daos777]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190914/f4fe18d118ce102189f7f9539b1d6a5d.jpg

Neolithic farmers favorite thing to grow was wheat and barley. Baltic nations aren’t exactly the best places to grow that shit. So less of them were willing to settle those areas permanently. Not much bang for the buck. Southern Europe and Central Europe was a much better place for them.

[Jana]

I think Baltid is more EHG thing.


I am related to La Brana Man

He was haplogroup C.

[Dominator]

Baltid - just eastern european CM

[Jana]

If I was to relate modern phenotype to WHG, it would be Paleo-Atlantid (dark haired, light-eyed northern CM).
Look at my avatar, my father looks like that - dark haired boy with northern facial features, green eyes, and he is I2 haplogroup just like they were.

[PaleoEuropean]

I think Baltid is more EHG thing.



He was haplogroup C.

They used to have him listed as I2, guess I am not then :P still related to Motala and Loschbour man B)

[Jana]

They used to have him listed as I2, guess I am not then :P still related to Motala and Loschbour man B)

Yes you are, and La Brana was autosomally pure WHG though.

[Daos777]

I think Baltid is more EHG thing.



He was haplogroup C.

EHG is roughly modeled as WHG+ANE(its a rough model because it doesn’t fit them perfectly) the more west you went from Ukraine the more WHG dominant you became. In the Baltic area they would have been around 60 percent WHG. Just like SHG were more WHG than EHG. So no way were they mainly EHG or represent them more than WHG.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jana]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190914/f4fe18d118ce102189f7f9539b1d6a5d.jpg

Neolithic farmers favorite thing to grow was wheat and barley. Baltic nations aren’t exactly the best places to grow that shit. So less of them were willing to settle those areas permanently. Not much bang for the buck. Southern Europe and Central Europe was a much better place for them.

According to this East Adriatic coast has some of worst quality soil in Europe, and def. worst in southern Europe.
Maybe that is why we are so northern shifted for our geographic location.

[PaleoEuropean]

EHG is roughly modeled as WHG+ANE(its a rough model because it doesn’t fit them perfectly) the more west you went from Ukraine the more WHG dominant you became. In the Baltic area they would have been around 60 percent WHG. Just like SHG were more WHG than EHG. So no way were they mainly EHG or represent them more than WHG.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I can't remember where I read it, but they have found I2 as far as Mongolia, seems like people were mixing even in Central Asia from Europe.

[Jana]

EHG is roughly modeled as WHG+ANE(its a rough model because it doesn’t fit them perfectly) the more west you went from Ukraine the more WHG dominant you became. In the Baltic area they would have been around 60 percent WHG. Just like SHG were more WHG than EHG. So no way were they mainly EHG or represent them more than WHG.

Fine, but they got blond hair from ANE admix. Pure WHG were dark haired and skinned apparently, but with blue eyes.

[Dick]

I can't remember where I read it, but they have found I2 as far as Mongolia, seems like people were mixing even in Central Asia from Europe.

Peterski said theres an R1a In China. He said it could be from a monk that caught yellow fever

[PaleoEuropean]

Peterski said theres an R1a In China. He said it could be from a monk that caught yellow fever

Well I would surprised if there wasn't R1a in China since its Asian, probably some random Central Asian or Siberoid/Eskimid peoples that settled there. I know almost all the Northern Chinese Muslims have R1a in their populations.

[Daos777]

I can't remember where I read it, but they have found I2 as far as Mongolia, seems like people were mixing even in Central Asia from Europe.

I think C men were the first to enter Europe. That 45,000 year old hunter gatherer found in the Romanian cave was Haplo C.

The only IJ that was ever found was in an Iranian man. IJ must have split into I and J around Iran. Then THE MAJORITY of I entered Europe and J entered Caucasus mountains. So it’s completely possible that some I clan went east instead. I think these I men were somehow technologically or physically more advanced than the C people in Europe and they killed off most of the C men and took their women. This would explain why EHG and WHG share up to 40-50 percent dna. It is from the previously assimilated HG group that was 100 percent “EHG” .


This is my theory atm. Needs a lot more research to confirm lol.

[Roy]

Fine, but they got blond hair from ANE admix. Pure WHG were dark haired and skinned apparently, but with blue eyes.


Interesting idea, but I struggle to find any proof for that.

People from Northern Caucasus who have the highest amount of this admixture are among the least blonde white people.

[PaleoEuropean]

Peterski said theres an R1a In China. He said it could be from a monk that caught yellow fever

Also a shit ton of Native Americans have R suffice to say we can gather that they are a pure looking non-WHG/Aryan Central Asians/Siberoids.
the first are Chippewa more mixed though, these guys probably had a fair amount of French

https://i.imgur.com/bx7v6G6.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/UT9Z6Wv.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/lvl6jp8.jpg

Second is South American Wayuu, both have substantial R percentages.

https://i.imgur.com/3OtNptE.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/3j2GP08.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/iWiV7jZ.jpg

[Dick]

Interesting idea, but I struggle to find any proof for that.

People from Northern Caucasus who have the highest amount of this admixture are among the least blonde white people.

It’s probably From N1 harkkonens

[Daos777]

Fine, but they got blond hair from ANE admix. Pure WHG were dark haired and skinned apparently, but with blue eyes.

If we had an individual that was 100 percent ANE. He would resemble most a mix between early Native Americans (think Kennewick man) and Early Europoid/Caucasoid. There are plenty of these types of people found in EHG Skeletons that have up to 35-40 ANE.

[PaleoEuropean]

Interesting idea, but I struggle to find any proof for that.

People from Northern Caucasus who have the highest amount of this admixture are among the least blonde white people.

I would say it's impossible to know because Melanin is only expressed through tissue, You can't say someone expressed dark skin from their bones with any degree of accuracy to my knowledge.

[PaleoEuropean]

I think C men were the first to enter Europe. That 45,000 year old hunter gatherer found in the Romanian cave was Haplo C.

The only IJ that was ever found was in an Iranian man. IJ must have split into I and J around Iran. Then THE MAJORITY of I entered Europe and J entered Caucasus mountains. So it’s completely possible that some I clan went east instead. I think these I men were somehow technologically or physically more advanced than the C people in Europe and they killed off most of the C men and took their women. This would explain why EHG and WHG share up to 40-50 percent dna. It is from the previously assimilated HG group that was 100 percent “EHG” .


This is my theory atm. Needs a lot more research to confirm lol.

I remember reading something along those lines, also the Native European haplogroup U5 is Asian, wouldn't have been greatly common among IJ's homelands. I remember reading that I is theorized to to be the only surviving Stone Age lineage but there was others, I need to go back and re-read all this stuff I haven't done it like 10 years.

[Jana]

Interesting idea, but I struggle to find any proof for that.
People from Northern Caucasus who have the highest amount of this admixture are among the least blonde white people.

I read somehwere first blond mutation occured in Siberia, and it was culture which was genetically ANE. I forgot it's name, it maybe started with S.
Don't forget North Caucasians have more of Natufian-like genetics than they have ANE.

Edit: culture I am speaking about is Afontova Gora

[Ülev]

now I am happy that I am not, repeat - not blond haired

[Jana]

Okay I found it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afontova_Gora

Phenotypic analysis shows that Afontova Gora 3 carries the derived rs12821256 allele associated with blond hair color in Europeans, making Afontova Gora 3 the earliest individual known to carry this derived allele-

[Jana]

Eastern European Hunter-Gatherer (EHG) is a lineage derived predominantly (75%) from ANE. It is represented by two individuals from Karelia, one of Y-haplogroup R1a-M417, dated c. 8.4 kya, the other of Y-haplogroup J, dated c. 7.2 kya; and one individual from Samara, of Y-haplogroup R1b-P297, dated c. 7.6 kya. This lineage is closely related to the ANE sample from Afontova Gora, dated c. 18 kya. After the end of the Last Glacial Maximum, the WHG and EHG lineages merged in Eastern Europe, accounting for early presence of ANE-derived ancestry in Mesolithic Europe. An Afontova Gora 3 female individual dated to c. 14.7 kya, is the earliest known individual with the derived allele of KITLG responsible for blond hair in modern Europeans, and is recorded in Mesolithic Eastern Europe as associated with the EHG lineage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_North_Eurasian

[vbnetkhio]

Why does it peak in the Baltic’s






https://i.pinimg.com/originals/da/ff/03/daff034658206a16f4d44a7f253cfc38.png

WHG and EHG admixture both peak in the Baltics i believe.
there was some migration of WHGs into eastern europe.

[Daos777]

Eastern European Hunter-Gatherer (EHG) is a lineage derived predominantly (75%) from ANE. It is represented by two individuals from Karelia, one of Y-haplogroup R1a-M417, dated c. 8.4 kya, the other of Y-haplogroup J, dated c. 7.2 kya; and one individual from Samara, of Y-haplogroup R1b-P297, dated c. 7.6 kya. This lineage is closely related to the ANE sample from Afontova Gora, dated c. 18 kya. After the end of the Last Glacial Maximum, the WHG and EHG lineages merged in Eastern Europe, accounting for early presence of ANE-derived ancestry in Mesolithic Europe. An Afontova Gora 3 female individual dated to c. 14.7 kya, is the earliest known individual with the derived allele of KITLG responsible for blond hair in modern Europeans, and is recorded in Mesolithic Eastern Europe as associated with the EHG lineage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_North_Eurasian

Yeah I knew about that but what did the average EHG look like? I’ve heard mostly Brown eyed and haired and light skinned. Also not all WHG had blue eyes. Bichon man for example was brown eyed. The likelihood for Loushbour and Brana for blue eyes was 50%. So were is this “they were all blue eyed” coming from. Same could be said for the example you provided.

Also wtf they were tiny. (I know this is normal for an ancient group)

Examples:

Loschbour man:

“When he died, he was between 34 and 47 years old, 1.6 m (5.2 ft) tall, and weighed between 58 and 62 kg (128–137 lb).”

Bichon man:

“He would have weighed just above 60 kg (130 lb) at a height of 1.64 m (5 ft 5 in). He was relatively slender, but muscular (based on muscle attachments visible on the skeleton), with a pronounced lateral asymmetry suggesting right-handedness. “



In stature they would resemble most Papua New Guineans. (Pre eurocontact) with more robust faces.

I dk where people got this idea of a 6 foot 220 pound ripped Cro-Magnid from. In fact it seems physically all the descendants of CM are more robust than them in every way besides maybe in the jaw department.

Or are people using gracile and robust in a more scientific term meaning doli skull and lepto face?


https://youtu.be/Imj0_UhfMLs

[PaleoEuropean]

Why does it peak in the Baltic’s






https://i.pinimg.com/originals/da/ff/03/daff034658206a16f4d44a7f253cfc38.png

I think it peaks in the Baltics because they are a crossroad to Scandinavia, Northern Europe and the Balkans. One of the theories is that disease brought by farmers and herders killed off patches of hunter gathers and in larger settlements as they moved north, If you look everywhere WHG is strong is in the North of the region, Frisia, Northern Germany/Denmark/Scandinavia for the mid west of Europe. Northern Ireland, Orkney and Scotland for the Isles, Normandy for France (could be Danish or Scand). The Balkans for Southern Europe, Finland for Eastern Europe. They also find WHG in tombs in almost every culture and in those regions I mentioned they are dominant in most the tombs/mounds. So I think disease is the most likely factor, for a people that only farmed vegetables and fruit and subsided off fishing and hunting for meat, they would not have been exposed to massive amount of diseases that come with livestock. Also I was bottle necked in a lot of places due to mass extinction events like Doggerland, mini ice ages etc,so their populations never flourished until the Farmers and Herders came, they have shown that both R and I had a massive boom after meeting. the WHG in Britian is said to have come from less 10 people who escaped Doggerland, you can imagine what that did to their gene pool, it was probably barely leveling out by the time the ENF came.

[Dick]

Yeah I knew about that but what did the average EHG look like? I’ve heard mostly Brown eyed and haired and light skinned. Also not all WHG had blue eyes. Bichon man for example was brown eyed. The likelihood for Loushbour and Brana for blue eyes was 50%. So were is this “they were all blue eyed” coming from. Same could be said for the example you provided.

Also wtf they were tiny. (I know this is normal for an ancient group)

Examples:

Loschbour man:

“When he died, he was between 34 and 47 years old, 1.6 m (5.2 ft) tall, and weighed between 58 and 62 kg (128–137 lb).”

Bichon man:

“He would have weighed just above 60 kg (130 lb) at a height of 1.64 m (5 ft 5 in). He was relatively slender, but muscular (based on muscle attachments visible on the skeleton), with a pronounced lateral asymmetry suggesting right-handedness. “



In stature they would resemble most Papua New Guineans. (Pre eurocontact) with more robust faces.

I dk where people got this idea of a 6 foot 220 pound ripped Cro-Magnid from. In fact it seems physically all the descendants of CM are more robust than them in every way besides maybe in the jaw department.

Or are people using gracile and robust in a more scientific term meaning doli skull and lepto face?


https://youtu.be/Imj0_UhfMLs

Yes those two were but the hunter gathers from the iron gates were different although didn’t say how tall the remains are



Remains from Iron Gates reveal the male hunter-gatherers, on average, were more muscular and about a head taller than the male farmers, though women from both cultures were about the same height.


http://discovermagazine.com/2018/nov/the-farmer-and-the-forager