Ambigous maternal great grandmother

[Mortimer]

I was told that her father was a russian man and cossack, that he was fair. Now from my results I dont get russia really. And it looks like Im not enough eastern european. But I get Hungary and Ashkenazi. Maybe this man was a part jew from Hungary? Many ashkenazi jews hide their real identity from nazis.

Any opinions

Note: It is about the woman on the pic and her FATHER not the man on the pic who was her husband, the man was just a gypsy

https://i.postimg.cc/Y977FTNP/Ivanka-Alexander.jpg

[Tauromachos]

A Gypsy from Hungary?

[Mortimer]

A Gypsy from Hungary?

What do you mean? Did you read what I wrote?

[Tauromachos]

What do you mean? Did you read what I wrote?

Yes i did

Maybe Gypsies in Hungary were mixed more with Jews...

[Mortimer]

Yes i did

Maybe Gypsies in Hungary were mixed more with Jews...

Why do you assume he was a gypsy when I was told he was russian and fair. It looks like you are trolling. Or just stupid.

[Tauromachos]

Why do you assume he was a gypsy when I was told he was russian and fair. It looks like you are trolling. Or just stupid.

Not realy trolling

So you say your great grandmother's father was fair and you believed he is Russian but now suspect he is a Jew from Hungary because of your results?
Anyway what was your great grandmother's maternal ancestry?

[Mortimer]

Not realy trolling

So you say your great grandmother's father was fair and you believed he is Russian but now suspect he is a Jew from Hungary because of your results?
Anyway what was your great grandmother's maternal ancestry?

Her maternal ancestry was gypsy. So she was 50% gypsy in any case, the rest is correct. It is about her father really. But I dont have his picture though.

[Tauromachos]

Her maternal ancestry was gypsy. So she was 50% gypsy in any case, the rest is correct. It is about her father really. But I dont have his picture though.

Ah ok

The question is if you assume he was Jewish could you hypothetically figure out or calculate what your results would need to look like under that assumption
and then compare your hypothetical results to the real ones you actually got?

[Mortimer]

Ah ok

The question is if you assume he was Jewish could you hypothetically figure out or calculate what your results would need to look like under that assumption
and then compare your hypothetical results to the real ones you actually got?

I have 5% Broadly European. I dont know where that fits. That could fit into Eastern European or into Jewish. Or into a combination. 2% is also unassigned. But if he were fully jewish I would need to be 6-7% ashkenazi but Im only 1.4% so maybe he was russian but part jewish. There are many jews in russia. I dont know who else could be jewish because all others are brown as fuck and jews are not brown. And they are typical gypsies.

[Tauromachos]

I have 5% Broadly European. I dont know where that fits. That could fit into Eastern European or into Jewish. Or into a combination. 2% is also unassigned.


But if he were fully jewish I would need to be 6-7% ashkenazi but


Ok



Im only 1.4% so maybe he was russian but part jewish. There are many jews in russia.

Yeah this maybe is the best and most logical conclusion i would say



I dont know who else could be jewish because all others are brown as fuck and jews are not brown. And they are typical gypsies.

The question is if its common for full Gypsies to score some Jewish like its common for example for Italians
or if its not

Well maybe its not
Right?

If its not common in general and given what you have been told about your great grandfathers origins the Russian Jew hypothesis is not unlikely

[Mortimer]

Ok



Yeah this maybe is the best and most logical conclusion i would say



The question is if its common for full Gypsies to score some Jewish like its common for example for Italians
or if its not

Well maybe its not
Right?

If its not common in general and given what you have been told about your great grandfathers origins the Russian Jew hypothesis is not unlikely

I think for full gypsies it is uncommon or not at that amount. Maybe 0.1-0.3% but 1.4% is already a little more then usual. Also there are many jewish/gypsy mixes on my DNA relatives list like half jew half gypsy but that cannot be taken into account because they have recent jewish ancestry and are not fully gypsy. Fully gypsies dont have it usually.

[TheOldNorth]

to blurry, but her father could've been a russian jew, my great grandmother's parents were Lithuanian jews and all I get is 2.5% eastern euro from south poland

[Mortimer]

to blurry, but her father could've been a russian jew, my great grandmother's parents were Lithuanian jews and all I get is 2.5% eastern euro from south poland

yes it is to blurry and not really enough pixelated to see her pigmentation. it is from cemetery. when i was in serbia i visited the cemetery. i dont have any other pictures.

[Pine]

I have 5% Broadly European. I dont know where that fits. That could fit into Eastern European or into Jewish. Or into a combination. 2% is also unassigned. But if he were fully jewish I would need to be 6-7% ashkenazi but Im only 1.4% so maybe he was russian but part jewish. There are many jews in russia. I dont know who else could be jewish because all others are brown as fuck and jews are not brown. And they are typical gypsies.

1. I can't tell if you're associating your ancestor's fairness with him being Jewish. Jews aren't typically fair. Some Ashkenazi Jews are dark skinned.
2. Why do you assume it has to be the line from Russia? There were plenty of Jews in the Balkans: Ashkenazi, Sephardic, and Romaniote - Italkim as well, if you had ancestors in Italy. The reason you think there are plenty of Jews in Russia today is because of the following: lack of Jews elsewhere and inflated Jewish statistics in Russia (probably due to part Jews, but I need to find out how their census works). Back when your ancestor would've lived, Jews weren't allowed to live in most of modern Russia - not unless they had permission. Such permission was rarely granted and when it was, it was due to: conversion to Christianity, long ass military service, and being a 1st Guild Merchant. If your ancestor came from Russia proper before the October Revolution, he likely wasn't fully Jewish. Jewish demographics in modern day Russia don't reflect past demographics. The other key reasons for modern Russian Jewish demographics: a)Jews from all over the Russian Empire (Caucuses, Central Asia, Belarus, Ukraine, Baltics, Eastern/Central Poland) moved into Russia following the revolution; b) Those living in Russia or close to it (Eastern Belarus/Eastern Ukraine) had higher survival rates during the Holocaust, as it was easier for them to flee into Russia.
3. All what I can tell by the woman's picture is that she's not Western European. You can pm me your Russian ancestor's name and I'll see if there is any hint of Jewish ancestry. The best way, without hiring a genealogist: is to test 1 parent with 23andMe and/or look very carefully at your cousin matches. 23andMe lets you know your Ashkenazi segments. See which Jews you share them with. Contact them and find out where their ancestors are from - see if you can triangulate those segments. You'll also have to keep in mind the pre-war distribution of Jews in Europe when doing this. This is really an arduous exercise in statistics. If you have living grandparents, testing them will also prove very useful.
4. If your ancestor wasn't Ashkenazi, but Sephardi/Italki/Romaniote, then your Jewish % can be much higher than the 1.4% Ashkenazi.

[Mortimer]

1. I can't tell if you're associating your ancestor's fairness with him being Jewish. Jews aren't typically fair. Some Ashkenazi Jews are dark skinned.
2. Why do you assume it has to be the line from Russia? There were plenty of Jews in the Balkans: Ashkenazi, Sephardic, and Romaniote - Italkim as well, if you had ancestors in Italy. The reason you think there are plenty of Jews in Russia today is because of the following: lack of Jews elsewhere and inflated Jewish statistics in Russia (probably due to part Jews, but I need to find out how their census works). Back when your ancestor would've lived, Jews weren't allowed to live in most of modern Russia - not unless they had permission. Such permission was rarely granted and when it was, it was due to: conversion to Christianity, long ass military service, and being a 1st Guild Merchant. If your ancestor came from Russia proper before the October Revolution, he likely wasn't fully Jewish. Jewish demographics in modern day Russia don't reflect past demographics. The other key reasons for modern Russian Jewish demographics: a)Jews from all over the Russian Empire (Caucuses, Central Asia, Belarus, Ukraine, Baltics, Eastern/Central Poland) moved into Russia following the revolution; b) Those living in Russia or close to it (Eastern Belarus/Eastern Ukraine) had higher survival rates during the Holocaust, as it was easier for them to flee into Russia.
3. All what I can tell by the woman's picture is that she's not Western European. You can pm me your Russian ancestor's name and I'll see if there is any hint of Jewish ancestry. The best way, without hiring a genealogist: is to test 1 parent with 23andMe and/or look very carefully at your cousin matches. 23andMe lets you know your Ashkenazi segments. See which Jews you share them with. Contact them and find out where their ancestors are from - see if you can triangulate those segments. You'll also have to keep in mind the pre-war distribution of Jews in Europe when doing this. This is really an arduous exercise in statistics. If you have living grandparents, testing them will also prove very useful.
4. If your ancestor wasn't Ashkenazi, but Sephardi/Italki/Romaniote, then your Jewish % can be much higher than the 1.4% Ashkenazi.

Thanks I think jews or Israelis can be darker but not as typical gypsies I assume it wasn't the others because they are typical gypsies I assume it was this great grandmother line because she spoke hungarian and lived in a hungarian neighborhood and she was a little more ambiguous than the others but I might be wrong I also think my ancestors are from Hungary now I even have regions from hungry assigned can I pm you my 23andme password to look at my DNA relatives I can tell you most of them have gypsies ancestry not surprising though also do you think I should test my mtdna do you know anything about T2b5 and my grandparents are dead my dad too my mum hates genetic tests

[Mortimer]

Bump

[Mortimer]

https://i.postimg.cc/wB9yn3YB/Screenshot-20190913-115602-org-adblockplus-browser.jpghttps://i.postimg.cc/fWqPL086/JH2-WUHAKNII3.jpg

[Pine]

Thanks I think jews or Israelis can be darker but not as typical gypsies I assume it wasn't the others because they are typical gypsies I assume it was this great grandmother line because she spoke hungarian and lived in a hungarian neighborhood and she was a little more ambiguous than the others but I might be wrong I also think my ancestors are from Hungary now I even have regions from hungry assigned can I pm you my 23andme password to look at my DNA relatives I can tell you most of them have gypsies ancestry not surprising though also do you think I should test my mtdna do you know anything about T2b5 and my grandparents are dead my dad too my mum hates genetic tests

The only MTDNA clades that would specifically suggest Jewish ancestry if found in Europe, that I'm aware of, are L2a1l2a and HV1b2, maybe some of the K's and U7's specifically suggest Jewish ancestry - I need to check. The U7 found in Ashkenazim is certainly Middle Eastern, but may exist in other nearby Middle Easterners. MTDNA is much more varied than YDNA among Jews; a lot of different clades can be found. T2b5 doesn't seem to be especially common, but neither is my predicted MTDNA.

You shouldn't give away your passwords that easily and that's too much work, Mortimer. Do people even post their family trees on 23andMe? Are you on AncestryDNA or MyHeritage?

[Mortimer]

The only MTDNA clades that would specifically suggest Jewish ancestry if found in Europe, that I'm aware of, are L2a1l2a and HV1b2, maybe some of the K's and U7's specifically suggest Jewish ancestry - I need to check. The U7 found in Ashkenazim is certainly Middle Eastern, but may exist in other nearby Middle Easterners. MTDNA is much more varied than YDNA among Jews, a lot of different clades can be found. T2b5 doesn't seem to be especially common, but neither is my predicted MTDNA.

You shouldn't give away your passwords that easily and that's too much work, Mortimer. Do people even post their family trees on 23andMe? Are you on AncestryDNA or MyHeritage?

I'm on Myheritage I don't score any jewish but interesting is that I score unusually many Sephardi Ashkenazi and Mizrahi matches for my known ancestry. Myheritage is not as precise as 23andme. I'm not sure if people post their family tree on 23andMe.

[Pine]

I'm on Myheritage I don't score any jewish but interesting is that I score unusually many Sephardi Ashkenazi and Mizrahi matches for my known ancestry. Myheritage is not as precise as 23andme. I'm not sure if people post their family tree on 23andMe.

I didn't ask to find out what you score on it, but because people often post trees on MyHeritage and MyHeritage has that "theory of family relativity". It also makes triangulation very easy.

[Pine]

I'm on Myheritage I don't score any jewish but interesting is that I score unusually many Sephardi Ashkenazi and Mizrahi matches for my known ancestry. Myheritage is not as precise as 23andme. I'm not sure if people post their family tree on 23andMe.

I didn't ask to find out what you score on it, but because people often post trees on MyHeritage and MyHeritage has that "theory of family relativity". It also makes triangulation very easy.

[Mortimer]

I didn't ask to find out what you score on it, but because people often post trees on MyHeritage and MyHeritage has that "theory of family relativity". It also makes triangulation very easy.

Ok but I don't know how to do that would you help me?

[Pine]

Ok



Yeah this maybe is the best and most logical conclusion i would say



The question is if its common for full Gypsies to score some Jewish like its common for example for Italians
or if its not

Well maybe its not
Right?

If its not common in general and given what you have been told about your great grandfathers origins the Russian Jew hypothesis is not unlikely

Such reasoning normally works, but when Italians score Ashkenazi on 23andMe, they do have Jewish ancestry. The reason it happens so often is because it's that common in them - especially south Italians/Sicilians. For one, most of the time Jews spent in Europe , they spent it in the south. Two, I can't find the source now, but from a source I read before, I deduced that the amount of Jews that remained in Sicily by converting to Christianity during the Inquisition constituted about 6% of the population. Therefore, it shouldn't be a surprise if every modern Sicilian has a Jewish ancestor. And this doesn't take into account all the Jews who converted/married out prior to the Inquisition.

[Pine]

Ok but I don't know how to do that would you help me?

Theory of Family Relativity should work on its own once you upload/make a family tree. It suggests connections. View a tutorial on it. Triangulation works by you clicking a button to the right of your common matches. It's that simple. A new window opens up with the triangulation screen, and there, you can add in more people to triangulate the segment. Look at your closest Jewish matches. See what family surnames and locations they list. Record them in a spreadsheet and tally them. I'll take a look at the numbers after.

[Longbowman]

T2b5 isn't Jewish. I don't know a single Jewish example and I just checked a database of around 1,000 results.

[Mortimer]

T2b5 isn't Jewish. I don't know a single Jewish example and I just checked a database of around 1,000 results.

Not sure you are serious bro how you quickly checked 1000 results I think it could be jew but doesn't need to be I would need to test with ftdna and even there it might be not so clear it would be expensive though

[Smeagol]

Such reasoning normally works, but when Italians score Ashkenazi on 23andMe, they do have Jewish ancestry.

Recent ancestry, or is it all from Italian Jew converts hundreds of years ago.

[Pine]

Recent ancestry, or is it all from Italian Jew converts hundreds of years ago.

Didn't I make it clear that it's from centuries before? Sure, in some cases it's more recent, especially if you consider Neofitti to not be converts to Christianity.

[Longbowman]

Not sure you are serious bro how you quickly checked 1000 results I think it could be jew but doesn't need to be I would need to test with ftdna and even there it might be not so clear it would be expensive though

Fully serious. It's not Jewish bro.

[Smeagol]

Didn't I make it clear that it's from centuries before? Sure, in some cases it's more recent, especially if you consider Neofitti to not be converts to Christianity.

Would 23andMe read Italian Jew as Ashkenazi? My friend, who thought he was fully Italian by blood, recently did a test and scored 14% Ashkenazi.

[Tauromachos]

...Therefore, it shouldn't be a surprise if every modern Sicilian has a Jewish ancestor. And this doesn't take into account all the Jews who converted/married out prior to the Inquisition.

:lol00001:

[Pine]

Would 23andMe read Italian Jew as Ashkenazi? My friend, who thought he was fully Italian by blood, recently did a test and scored 14% Ashkenazi.

There is a massive overlap between Ashkenazim and Italkim. It's hard to say what happened in his case. He'd have to look at his cousin matches.

[Mortimer]

Fully serious. It's not Jewish bro.

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[Mortimer]

Probably it is not jewish just found this

T2b5: found mostly in Europe https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_T_mtDNA.shtml

[Longbowman]

Sorry bra. Yet another example of the golden rule: Longbowman Is Always Right (LIAR).

[Mortimer]

Sorry bra. Yet another example of the golden rule: Longbowman Is Always Right (LIAR).

bro any opinion thanks https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?300936-How-Jewish-do-you-look&p=6236331&viewfull=1#post6236331

[Smeagol]

Probably it is not jewish just found this

T2b5: found mostly in Europe https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_T_mtDNA.shtml

Most Jewish MtDNA is European though.

[Longbowman]

Most Jewish MtDNA is European though.

...mostly from a handful of specific clades, or at least Jewish-only clusters of more common clades. 40% of Ashkenazim have one of four mtDNA clades (one likely Levantine, three likely European) all of which are nearly exclusively Jewish, for example.

As stated Jewish T2b5 is negligible or non-existent.

[Mortimer]

...mostly from a handful of specific clades, or at least Jewish-only clusters of more common clades. 40% of Ashkenazim have one of four mtDNA clades (one likely Levantine, three likely European) all of which are nearly exclusively Jewish, for example.

As stated Jewish T2b5 is negligible or non-existent.

But isnt T2b5 rare in every population though couldnt it be one of the rare haplogroups? Is there any population with alot of T2b5?

My National Genographic says only 0.1% have my mtDNA compared to 1.9% Ydna
https://i.postimg.cc/Jhnp7wT8/National-Genographic-Deep-Ancestry.jpg

[KuriousKatKommittee]

it was this great grandmother line because she spoke hungarian and lived in a hungarian neighborhood and she was a little more ambiguous than the others but I might be wrong I also think my ancestors are from Hungary
A daring hypothesis, Morty, and I think this ties well into my "racially ambiguous Alpinoids" argument (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?294604). I am less mixed than the average American Ashkenazi Ashkenican't and it's funny, I had Central Europeans mistake me for a "Gypsy" so I find this all very interesting.

>1.4%
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/HBDNbpWSUx8/maxresdefault.jpg

[Longbowman]

But isnt T2b5 rare in every population though couldnt it be one of the rare haplogroups? Is there any population with alot of T2b5?

It isn't, though. I know you want to be Jewish but you don't have a Jewish mtDNA. Even if you did, being 1/64 Jewish doesn't matter even if it is maternal, you're a practising Christian.


My National Genographic says only 0.1% have my mtDNA compared to 1.9% Ydna

0.1% of everyone, higher in Scandinavia and elsewhere.

[Mortimer]

It isn't, though. I know you want to be Jewish but you don't have a Jewish mtDNA. Even if you did, being 1/64 Jewish doesn't matter even if it is maternal, you're a practising Christian.



0.1% of everyone, higher in Scandinavia and elsewhere.

Ok Longbowman. It was just a suspicion. I outlined why I think that, but it could be all wrong of course. And if you say it is not like that I trust you because you have alot of knowledge and I dont need to be jewish, I wouldnt make myself jewish if I knew 100% Im not. Before I tested with 23andMe I never claimed that I could be jewish. I got a idea or suspicion and just asked, but of course it is likely wrong.

[Longbowman]

Ok Longbowman. It was just a suspicion. I outlined why I think that, but it could be all wrong of course. And if you say it is not like that I trust you because you have alot of knowledge and I dont need to be jewish, I wouldnt make myself jewish if I knew 100% Im not. Before I tested with 23andMe I never claimed that I could be jewish. I got a idea or suspicion and just asked, but of course it is likely wrong.

I'm sure you are 1/64 Jewish but not your maternal great-great-great-great-grandmother.

[Mortimer]

I'm sure you are 1/64 Jewish but not your maternal great-great-great-great-grandmother.

Fine. But T2b5 is a interesting mtDNA anyways. I did ydna snp pack E-V13 on ftdna and it looks like I match a certain serbian/monetengrin clan. But I will if i have some money test my mtDNA too and also maybe further test my ydna to see if i really match that serbian clan. T2b5 could be german or hungarian too, maybe, it isnt southasian and it is interesting.

[Daos777]

Fine. But T2b5 is a interesting mtDNA anyways. I did ydna snp pack E-V13 on ftdna and it looks like I match a certain serbian/monetengrin clan. But I will if i have some money test my mtDNA too and also maybe further test my ydna to see if i really match that serbian clan. T2b5 could be german or hungarian too, maybe, it isnt southasian and it is interesting.

Which one did you do? Y-37?

[Mortimer]

Which one did you do? Y-37?

Not the str. I did the E-V13 snp pack. SNP test. I might do a Y-37 maybe.

[Mortimer]

Request Update
Request ID: 1034494

Hello,
Haplogroup T is not a haplogroup that is common among Jews. It is a common branch of haplogroup R that spread into Europe and is most frequent in Western and Eastern European populations.
Your myOrigins results show trace percentages of Sephardic DNA, which can hint at distant Jewish ancestry.
Best,
Cristina
Information Specialist
FamilyTreeDNA

[Pine]

I'm sure you are 1/64 Jewish but not your maternal great-great-great-great-grandmother.

I pronounce Mortimer - King of the Jews. T2b5 is henceforth a Jewish matrilineage.

[Mortimer]

I pronounce Mortimer - King of the Jews. T2b5 is henceforth a Jewish matrilineage.

I googled and found that T could be sephardi but not sure about T2b5 though. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3306851/

[Longbowman]

I pronounce Mortimer - King of the Jews. T2b5 is henceforth a Jewish matrilineage.

Sweet. When do we nail him to a cross when do we overthrow the Knesset?

[Mortimer]

Sweet. When do we nail him to a cross when do we overthrow the Knesset?

LMAO, you are a genius bro. It is clear you have a IQ of 150

[Longbowman]

LMAO, you are a genius bro. It is clear you have a IQ of 150

thank you my liege