Ancient Etruscans Were Immigrants From Anatolia, Or What Is Now Turkey

[itilvolga]

Etruscan culture was very advanced and quite different from other known Italian cultures that flourished at the same time, and highly influential in the development of Roman civilization. Its origins have been debated by archaeologists, historians and linguists since time immemorial. Three main theories have emerged: that the Etruscans came from Anatolia, Southern Turkey, as propounded by the Greek historian Herotodus; that they were indigenous to the region and developed from the Iron Age Villanovan society, as suggested by another Greek historian, Dionysius of Halicarnassus; or that they originated from Northern Europe.

Now modern genetic techniques have given scientists the tools to answer this puzzle. Professor Piazza and his colleagues set out to study genetic samples from three present-day Italian populations living in Murlo, Volterra, and Casentino in Tuscany, central Italy.

The scientists compared DNA samples taken from healthy males living in Tuscany, Northern Italy, the Southern Balkans, the island of Lemnos in Greece, and the Italian islands of Sicily and Sardinia. The Tuscan samples were taken from individuals who had lived in the area for at least three generations, and were selected on the basis of their surnames, which were required to have a geographical distribution not extending beyond the linguistic area of sampling. The samples were compared with data from modern Turkish, South Italian, European and Middle-Eastern populations.

“We found that the DNA samples from individuals from Murlo and Volterra were more closely related those from near Eastern people than those of the other Italian samples", says Professor Piazza. "In Murlo particularly, one genetic variant is shared only by people from Turkey, and, of the samples we obtained, the Tuscan ones also show the closest affinity with those from Lemnos."

Herodotus' theory, much criticised by subsequent historians, states that the Etruscans emigrated from the ancient region of Lydia, on what is now the southern coast of Turkey, because of a long-running famine. Half the population was sent by the king to look for a better life elsewhere, says his account, and sailed from Smyrna (now Izmir) until they reached Umbria in Italy.

Source: European Society of Human Genetics

[Cumansky]

What is main genetic component they brought to the Italy in Iron age?

[renaissance12]

Don't forget that "everything" begun in a area north and south caucasian mountains. In a relative small Area Of East Turkey, North Syria and Iraq, West Iran, and Armenia, Georgia and South European Russia, there are many different languages .....Indoeuropean....Semitic.....Asian........... Do you remember the tower of babel and what happened to all humanity afterwards?


https://www.lecciondeescuelasabatica.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/M%C3%81S-DESUNI%C3%93N-Y-SEPARACI%C3%93N.png

[Theudelinde]

Some Italian Nordicists would be so mad.:picard2:

[Dick]

What is main genetic component they brought to the Italy in Iron age?

Their women.

[renaissance12]

Some Italian Nordicists would be so mad.:picard2:




I have no idea what does it mean nordicist...When Chinese were living in a cave - without any sign of civilization- .. in caucasian area they were building roads, wall-cities, palace, writting and so on... This is history and not ideology or propaganda..:cool:

[dududud]

Anatolian farmer like?

[Corvo]

Etruscans most likely were a small elite who at a certain point ruled over an umbrianized (umbrians were indoeuropeans) population, which before being indoeuropeanized was mainly constituted by african and asian neolithic farmers.

You have to keep this in mind when talking about etruscans.

[renaissance12]

https://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2014/02/16/the-amazing-endangered-languages-russia/XkKZcl5TJDOWTIMKvB8jNJ/story.html

The amazing endangered languages of Russia

Despite nods to diversity in Sochi, more than 130 different languages in the country are now imperiled, say experts


http://resizer.shared.arcpublishing.com/9lZhjAc8QscngTBoKN_WRPqkmek=/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-bostonglobe/public/NUN7D5EWPYI6HKUXQVJXBVNIXU.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b0/Caucasus-ethnic_en.svg/1024px-Caucasus-ethnic_en.svg.png


The area around caucasian mountains is the "center" of the world...long long before Egypt ( China and India "civilizations" are not older than Greeks civilizatin and much less influential )

[renaissance12]

Anatolian farmer like?

The romans said they came from Troy...

[Tigranes]

we wuz etruscanz n' shiet

[MinervaItalica]

No that is just one of the theories about Etruscans origins.

I wonder why a Turk posted this... :picard1:

Turks have nothing to do with Ancient Anatolians anyway.


The romans said they came from Troy...

Because they were fascinated by the legend of Troy and Greek myths in general so they felt the need to be linked to such a culture.

[Kivan]

No that is just one of the theories about Etruscans origins.

I wonder why a Turk posted this... :picard1:

Turks have nothing to do with Ancient Anatolians anyway.



Because they were fashinated by the legend of Troy and Greek myths in general so they felt the need to be linked to such a culture.

And i wonder why your butthurt and your need to poke your nose in her thread to speak non-sense.

Maybe because she is an Anatoian Turk, and the subject is somehow related to her heritage.
Modern Anatolian Turks are basically a mix of native Anatolian and Central Asian, and genetics agrees with me.

[MinervaItalica]

And i wonder why your butthurt and your need to poke your nose in her thread to speak non-sense.

Maybe because she is an Anatoian Turk, and the subject is somehow related to her heritage.
Modern Anatolian Turks are basically a mix of native Anatolian and Central Asian, and genetics agrees with me.

The butthurt here is you, considering you always thumb me down while hiding. Is this the typical Turk behavior? :laugh:

The subject has nothing to do with her heritage.


According to the study, ancient Etruscan mtDNA is closest among modern European populations and is not particularly close to Turkish or other Eastern Mediterranean populations. Among ancient populations, ancient Etruscans were found to be closest to Neolithic farmers from Central Europe.[8][9]


A recent Y-DNA study from 2018 on a modern sample of 113 individuals from Volterra, a town of Etruscan origin, Grugni at al. keeps all the possibilities open, although the last scenario is the one most supported by the percentages, and concludes that "the presence of J2a-M67* (2,7%) suggests contacts by sea with Anatolian people, the finding of the Central European lineage G2a-L497 (7,1%) at considerable frequency would rather support a Northern European origin of Etruscans, while the high incidence of European R1b lineages (R1b 49,8%, R1b-U152 24,5%) cannot rule out the scenario of an autochthonous process of formation of the Etruscan civilisation from the preceding Villanovan society, as suggested by Dionysius of Halicarnassus".[50]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_origins#Genetic_evidence

Stop relating yourself to European culture.

[itilvolga]

No that is just one of the theories about Etruscans origins.

I wonder why a Turk posted this... :picard1:

Turks have nothing to do with Ancient Anatolians anyway.



Because they were fascinated by the legend of Troy and Greek myths in general so they felt the need to be linked to such a culture.

Genetic studies kinda prove it so i needed to share with other TA members, i was randomly reading something about history and came across with it. Why did it bother you so much? There’s no rule such as “Turks can’t talk about Etruscans”, afaik.

You are partly Etruscan, right? Well, your language is considered as an IE-Anatolian Language by most of modern linguists today.

Also this map explains the heritage of Etruscans to a certain extent:
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcT2j5Ap1dxqcxMTCNC5vWwHVbmN-GWUFY1m7nO8QNfGNcincG24


Turks have nothing to do with Ancient Anatolians anyway.

The funniest thing i’ve ever heard so far. So Turks didn’t mix with Native Anatolians who were the descendants of Ancient Anatolians? If you truly believe this shit, just log off and leave this forum forever because it couldn’t bring you anything since 2016.

[Vid Flumina]

modern tuscan =/= etruscan

[MinervaItalica]

Genetic studies kinda prove it so i needed to share with other TA members, i was randomly reading something about history and came across with it.

Genetic studies prove different things as you can see from my post above. Again, the Anatolia THEORY (if you know the meaning of the word) is just one also badly supported tbh. Plus you didn't even posted the link of your OP post so it's impossible to see the date of that study...

[itilvolga]

Genetic studies prove different things as you can see from my post above. Again, the Anatolia THEORY (if you know the meaning of the word) is just one also badly supported tbh. Plus you didn't even posted the link of your OP post so it's impossible to see the date of that study...

The date is June 18, 2007.

If you need something new:

Linguists have uncovered tantalizing clues. Similarities between the Etruscan language and certain languages of Bronze-Age western Turkey are uncanny. There are certain words, Gorbachov says, that could only have been borrowed from the Lydians, and their neighbors the Louvians. For example the Etruscan word for wine, matu, “looks precisely like the Louvian word for wine,” (mattu).
And the Etruscans shared some unique customs with the Lydians and Louvians as well — like the practice of Herosposy, which Gorbachov describes as “a form of divination from inspection of entrails. ... Gleaning the will of the Gods through inspecting the livers of sacrificed animals.”


Ancient genome samples were similar to Mycenaean Greece and Minoan Greece samples. Etruscans arrived in Italy during the Mycenaean period. Etruscans were part of the Mycenaeans and their first arrival to Italy is before the appearance of Etruria! In 1894, Paul Kretschmer has suggested an Etruscan substrate in Indo-European languages, and since then Etruscan / Tursenoi / Tyrrhennian was considered by a handful of European scholars as the pre-Greek substrate which constitute a large part of the Greek vocabulary.

Tyrsenoi, Turrhenioi (Attic Greek), Tursenoi (Ionic), Tursanoi (Doric), Tyrrheni (Latin), Tusci (Latin), *Tursci > Turskum (Umbrian), Etrusci (Latin) and Tursis (Greek) > Turris (Latin), Tyrannos (Greek), tyrannus (Latin), Turan (Etruscan goddess) are related then an Eastern identification can be educatedly set forward. The hypothetical root word is *turs-."

[Tigranes]

Also this map explains the heritage of Etruscans to a certain extent:
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcT2j5Ap1dxqcxMTCNC5vWwHVbmN-GWUFY1m7nO8QNfGNcincG24



I think genetic affinity between Etruscans and Armenians worth to mention here, also I must say that I'm surprised that you shared a map which has "Armenian Highlands" on it, as you know the "Armenian Highlands" is correct term for the region that wrongly referred to as "Eastern Anatolia".

https://i1.wp.com/www.peopleofar.com/wp-content/uploads/armenian-origins-of-the-etruscans2.jpg?resize=748%2C442

Coincidentally, another study published in Science Magazine (Hellenthal et al., 2014) has already shown a significant genetic Armenian component within the population of Tuscany (Italy).

https://i2.wp.com/www.peopleofar.com/wp-content/uploads/tuscan-genetic-admixture-armenia-etruscans1.jpg?resize=752%2C357

Full Article: https://www.peopleofar.com/2014/09/26/etruscan-origins-study-reveals-migration-from-armenian-highlands/

[itilvolga]

I think genetic affinity between Etruscans and Armenians worth to mention here, also I must say that I'm surprised that you shared a map which has "Armenian Highlands" on it, as you know the "Armenian Highlands" is correct term for the region that wrongly referred to as "Eastern Anatolia".

https://i1.wp.com/www.peopleofar.com/wp-content/uploads/armenian-origins-of-the-etruscans2.jpg?resize=748%2C442

Coincidentally, another study published in Science Magazine (Hellenthal et al., 2014) has already shown a significant genetic Armenian component within the population of Tuscany (Italy).

https://i2.wp.com/www.peopleofar.com/wp-content/uploads/tuscan-genetic-admixture-armenia-etruscans1.jpg?resize=752%2C357

Full Article: https://www.peopleofar.com/2014/09/26/etruscan-origins-study-reveals-migration-from-armenian-highlands/


The map is not created by me, my main purpose was showing the regions, i don’t care how they got called on this map.

Also, what kind of rat you are? Really, you have no shame. You were mocking on your first post and now, you find it worthy to mention just because the region includes the term “Armenian Highlands”.

[Kivan]

I think genetic affinity between Etruscans and Armenians worth to mention here, also I must say that I'm surprised that you shared a map which has "Armenian Highlands" on it, as you know the "Armenian Highlands" is correct term for the region that wrongly referred to as "Eastern Anatolia".

Coincidentally, another study published in Science Magazine (Hellenthal et al., 2014) has already shown a significant genetic Armenian component within the population of Tuscany (Italy).

https://i2.wp.com/www.peopleofar.com/wp-content/uploads/tuscan-genetic-admixture-armenia-etruscans1.jpg?resize=752%2C357

Full Article: https://www.peopleofar.com/2014/09/26/etruscan-origins-study-reveals-migration-from-armenian-highlands/


we wuz etruscanz n' shiet

[MinervaItalica]

The date is June 18, 2007

Nice job posting a 2007 study when genetics and shits basically differ every year... :picard1:

I'm done here.

[itilvolga]

Nice job posting a 2007 study... :picard1:

I'm done here.

Genetics is genetics, it will not change in 12 years. Also, the last one is one of the newest about Etruscans.

[wvwvw]

You are referring To Tyrrhenians who were one of the tribes of Etruria.

Another tribe were theTuscans who were native Italians who the Roman historians distinguish them from Tyrrhenians.

[Imperator Biff]

Ancient Greeks referred to them as ‘Tyrhennoi’ (Tyrrhenian sea origin?)
Etruscan and Rhaetian probably arrived during the Bronze Age with a wave of CHG/Iran neo enriched Anatolians that spread out across the med before the arrival of IE steppe ancestry in the region with bell beakers and urnfield populations.

[itilvolga]

You are referring To Tyrrhenians who were one of the tribes of Etruria.

Another tribe were theTuscans who were native Italians who the Roman historians distinguish them from Tyrrhenians.

So? They share common heritage.

[renaissance12]

Greeks civilization was not much older than Etruscan civilization.. ( 1000 B.C.. Etruscans 1200 B.C. Greeks ).
Etruscans had many contacts with phoenicians and Nuragic civilization.
Etruscan artefacts were found in "scandinavia" and Egypt

[Calpurnius]

2007 is like the early middle ages as far as such field is concerned, it is by no means in any way comparable with genetics anno 2019, for one, because we now have countless ancient DNA samples, while in 2007 I'm fairly sure you could count them on your right hand, and second because modern sequencing, being cheaper, allows much much greater resolution
back then you still had theories like R1b being a paleolithic Franco-Cantabrian refuge lineage, simply because of its modern frequency
in any case, the mtDNA from Etruscan tombs did NOT prove an Anatolian origin, unless we mean stone age Anatolia neolithic; now, the 2019 study with actual autosomal DNA from Etruscans is going in the opposite direction, with the leaks suggesting Etruscans were a quite "northern"(by south Euro standards) people with likely high steppe ancestry, which isn't even surprising considering that to this day Tuscany has some of the highest R1b frequencies in Italy
if there was an east Mediterranean input, it was likely very small and/or reserved for the elites

[Balthier]

ITT: Italians who can't cope with the fact some of their ancestors and most of their culture is from Anatolia.

The Etruscans spoke a Luwic language, just like the Trojans, this language family is an Indo-European one and there is no surprise they had Steppe ancestry lmao. Italian's don't have more Steppe ancestry than Modern Turks(Turks have more Yamnaya/Steppe ancestry than Italians actually). It's about the same. So, suck that you fascist scum, remember what happened to your leader, Mussolini ;-)

https://indo-european.eu/maps/yamnaya-steppe-ancestry

[wvwvw]

Greeks civilization was not much older than Etruscan civilization.. ( 1000 B.C.. Etruscans 1200 B.C. Greeks ).
Etruscans had many contacts with phoenicians and Nuragic civilization.
Etruscan artefacts were found in "scandinavia" and Egypt

Greek civilization (of Greek speakers) date from at least 1800 BC and is recorded in writing since then. The Cretan civilisation at this time called themselves CRONIDS not Minoans and from Kronidis you get Kritids or Crete. These people were GREEKS !

Linear A inscriptions prove that by naming known kings whose names were recorded by Greek historians. Radamanthys the son of Hephaestus (not the other Rhadamanthys II who was a son
of Zeus) the king of Crete (1599-1555) is named in Linear A inscriptions as Nodamate the king of Crete at Knossos c.1600-1550 BC.

Apis the son of Phoeroneus who ruled over the Peloponnese, Pontus and Egypt from 1628-1600 BC and who by the name Sarapis was worshipd as a Pharoah and God king of Egypt in Hellenistic times was the Cretan king Saiapis (from Linear A inscriptions) who ruled at Tilisis somewhere between 1625 and 1575 BC. It is highly likely that Apis was Apepi II/Epaphus who ruled Egypt between 1627 and 1596 BC accordin to Manetho.

According to Greek Mythology Zeus (or Sdeus) was born in Lyctos and was taken to the Diktaian caves near Lato (or Lyctos) in Crete after his birth or to the Idaian caves which are near Tylissos. Diodorus Siculus says that the Cretan city of Goulas was known as a "city of Zeus". Linear B tablets found at Knossos mention a Goulas settlement in the area of Lato and Tylissos. This indicate that Zeus was the Cretan king Saasi[tepi(s)] or Saa[si]tepi(s) who ruled at Lato and at Tiliss somewhere between 1650 and 1600 BC according to Linear A inscriptions.

This Saasitepis is very likely to have been the Hyksos king Sheshi also known as Shalik (inscription) or Salatis (Manetho) who ruled in Egypt from 1674 to 1667.5 BC (Based on Manethos figures). There is no reason why the Cretan rule could have not extended to Egypt in this period.

If J. Faucounau's decipherment of the Phaistos Disc is correct then this proto-Ionian inscription dating to betwen 1650 BC describes the death of a king of named as Arion = Herakles the Dactyl who moved from mount Ida in Asia-Minor to mount Ida near Phaistos in Crete in about 1690 BC and who looked after Zeus he was a child.

Cronos c.1715-1675 BC known by the Romans as Saturn was the Cretan king Satur who ruled at Knossos some time between 1725 and 1675 BC according to Linear A inscriptions. Epaphus was the Pharaoh Apepi I or Apachnas who Manethos says ruled from 1645-1627 BC.


Etruscan artefacts were found in "scandinavia" and Egypt

Etruscans ever set foot in Egypt. Pelasgians did. (also one of the tribes of Etruria)

[PaleoEuropean]

we wuz etruscanz n' shiet

Armenian Chad Etuscans

[Figaro]

I wonder if their movements from Anatolia was part of a series of wider movements from there, beginning in the late Neolithic (post LBK anatolians. These additional waves stuck more to southerly areas in Europe) . Yes, no?

[Balthier]

Greek civilization (of Greek speakers) date from at least 1800 BC and is recorded in writing since then. The Cretan civilisation at this time called themselves CRONIDS not Minoans and from Kronidis you get Kritids or Crete. These people were GREEKS !

Linear A inscriptions prove that by naming known kings whose names were recorded by Greek historians. Radamanthys the son of Hephaestus (not the other Rhadamanthys II who was a son
of Zeus) the king of Crete (1599-1555) is named in Linear A inscriptions as Nodamate the king of Crete at Knossos c.1600-1550 BC.

Apis the son of Phoeroneus who ruled over the Peloponnese, Pontus and Egypt from 1628-1600 BC and who by the name Sarapis was worshipd as a Pharoah and God king of Egypt in Hellenistic times was the Cretan king Saiapis (from Linear A inscriptions) who ruled at Tilisis somewhere between 1625 and 1575
BC. It is highly likely that Apis was Apepi II/Epaphus who ruled Egypt between 1627 and 1596 BC accordin to Manetho.

According to Greek Mythology Zeus (or Sdeus) was born in Lyctos and was taken to the Diktaian caves near Lato (or Lyctos) in Crete after his birth or to the Idaian caves which are near Tylissos. Diodorus Siculus says that the Cretan city of Goulas was known as a "city of Zeus". Linear B tablets found at Knossos mention a Goulas settlement in the area of Lato and Tylissos. This indicate that Zeus was
the Cretan king Saasi[tepi(s)] or Saa[si]tepi(s) who ruled at Lato and at Tiliss somewhere between 1650 and 1600 BC according to Linear A inscriptions.

This Saasitepis is very likely to have been the Hyksos king Sheshi also known as Shalik (inscription) or Salatis (Manetho) who ruled in Egypt from 1674 to 1667.5 BC (Based on Manethos figures). There is no reason why the Cretan rule could have not extended to Egypt in this period.

If J. Faucounau's decipherment of the Phaistos Disc is correct then this proto-Ionian inscription dating to betwen 1650 BC describes the death of a king of named as Arion = Herakles the Dactyl who moved from mount Ida in Asia-Minor to mount Ida near Phaistos in Crete in about 1690 BC and who looked after Zeus he was a child.

Cronos c.1715-1675 BC known by the Romans as Saturn was the Cretan king Satur who ruled at Knossos some time between 1725 and 1675 BC according to Linear A inscriptions. Epaphus was the Pharaoh Apepi I or Apachnas who Manethos says ruled from 1645-1627 BC.



Etruscans ever set foot in Egypt. Pelasgians did. (also one of the tribes of Etruria)


In 1961, British linguist Leonard Robert Palmer, a professor at Oxford University and president of the British Philological Society, published a book called Mycenaeans and Minoans, in which he used the previous decipherment of Luwian hieroglyphic to draw further conclusions about Aegean prehistory. He argued that the language record in Linear A was indeed Luwian. Another one of his key arguments was that Luwian people had advanced into Greek territory during the 3rd millennium BCE, where they also introduced their language. The German linguist Paul Kretschmer originally developed this model in his Introduction to the History of the Greek Language in 1896. Kretschmer recognized that local names ending with -nthos (such as Tirynthos) and -assos (such as Parnassos) were of pre-Greek origin. In 1928, Carl Blegen (excavator of Troy 1932–38), along with the linguist Joseph Boyd Haley, picked up on this theory in an article entitled “The Coming of the Greeks.”

Accordingly, there are a number of indications that Luwian terms have been preserved even in the Greek language – in particular in toponyms that are known to be long-lasting. In addition, there are indications that both the Cretan hieroglyphic writing and the Linear A script were connected with western Asia Minor.

[renaissance12]

Etruscans ever set foot in Egypt. Pelasgians did. (also one of the tribes of Etruria)

Artefacts...



Sardinia... 2000-1500 B.C

https://photo.cuboimages.it/getImageBin.asp?filename=RLO6693%2Ejpg
http://www.donninidavid.it/img/=sc4.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4625/38920147774_27a638cfaa_b.jpg

https://cdn.theculturetrip.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/20978113805_6d962dff09_k-1024x683.jpg

https://europenomad.files.wordpress.com/2015/11/dscf8150.jpg

[wvwvw]

ITT: Italians who can't cope with the fact some of their ancestors and most of their culture is from Anatolia.

The Etruscans spoke a Luwic language, just like the Trojans, this language family is an Indo-European one and there is no surprise they had Steppe ancestry lmao. Italian's don't have more Steppe ancestry than Modern Turks(Turks have more Yamnaya/Steppe ancestry than Italians actually). It's about the same. So, suck that you fascist scum, remember what happened to your leader, Mussolini ;-)

https://indo-european.eu/maps/yamnaya-steppe-ancestry

Luwia was nowhere near Troy. Troy was a Minoan Greek city and then a Mycenaean Greek city. And the artifacts found do support these facts. Asia-Minor was Greek for over 3,500 years. Read Pausanius.

The region the Trojans occupied was called Dardania (not the Dardania in the Balkans which they founded later)

Wilusa was in the region Mysia and was located south of Troy and north of Lydia. The kings named in Hittite texts mentioning Wilusa are not those of any known kings of Troy that ruled during the periods they refer to. Wilusa was never a vassal state of the Hittites. It was considered to be an independent city state and its kings were on the same level as the Hittites kings.

The evidence is that the Wilusa had been the subject of Hittite conquest more than 300 years earlier, and that no Hittite records survived to prove any definite Hittite control of the city and the Hittiers acknowledged that.

Archaeologically Troy at this time and since 2200 BC was a Greek city, Minoan and Mycenean. The Hittite Empire didn’t even exist then nor did any of their Gods.

According to Hygenius, Xanthus was the son of Triopas and identifies him with Scamander (also called Xanthus). That makes the Trojans Inarchid Oceanids and thus the would have originally called themselves Achaeans or Sea Peoples..

It was Ilyus the king of Troy who attacked Pelops and kicked him out of Lydia. And it was Aeacus who bilt the walls of Troy for Laodemon a generation later.

All this feud which culminated in the Trojan War had been building for generations. That would explain why the Achaeans claimed their land.

The Achaeans occupied Troy on the opposite side of the country and the also occupied Cilixia and parts of Lydia.
Ekwesh (Egyptian) = Eyakiwash = Ayahiwash = Ayahaewah (Hebrew) = Akhaiwoi (Homeric) = Ahhiyawa (Hittite) = Aegialea (Greek) = Achaean-ous (Greek) = Ochean-ous (Greek)

[Tigranes]

...

I don't understand why you go mad over a joke, it's just a friggin' joke, chill out.:picard2:

Nice avatar btw, what does it portray tho? I'm not exactly sure, but let me guess:chin:, the one who laying on the ground is itivolga, and you're there to protect her with your Tatar bow. Did I get it right?:D

[wvwvw]

In 1961, British linguist Leonard Robert Palmer, a professor at Oxford University and president of the British Philological Society, published a book called Mycenaeans and Minoans, in which he used the previous decipherment of Luwian hieroglyphic to draw further conclusions about Aegean prehistory. He argued that the language record in Linear A was indeed Luwian. Another one of his key arguments was that Luwian people had advanced into Greek territory during the 3rd millennium BCE, where they also introduced their language. The German linguist Paul Kretschmer originally developed this model in his Introduction to the History of the Greek Language in 1896. Kretschmer recognized that local names ending with -nthos (such as Tirynthos) and -assos (such as Parnassos) were of pre-Greek origin. In 1928, Carl Blegen (excavator of Troy 1932–38), along with the linguist Joseph Boyd Haley, picked up on this theory in an article entitled “The Coming of the Greeks.”

Accordingly, there are a number of indications that Luwian terms have been preserved even in the Greek language – in particular in toponyms that are known to be long-lasting. In addition, there are indications that both the Cretan hieroglyphic writing and the Linear A script were connected with western Asia Minor.

Linear A has been deciphered as combination of Aeolian and Ionian Greek with a few words of Hurrian and other languages. The Phaistos disc has been deciphered by Jean Faucounau to be a funeral record of the burial of a proto-Ionian king called Arion.

The Hittite cuneiform script didn't develop until around the middle of the 16th Century B.C. Prior to this time, iconographic hieroglyphs were used, which -strage to relate- show a scandalous similarity to Cretan hieroglyphic writing. Ironically since the Indo-Europeanizers consider the Minoan Cretans to be a non-Greek race, which means, in effect, also non-Indo-European. How then are we to explain the fact that a non-Indo-European language -the Cretan - gave birth to an Indo-European one -the Hittite? Which begs another question: Why would the Indo-European Hittites use a language and writing which was totally foreign to them, and use this strange language for four centuries?

[Balthier]

Linear A has been deciphered as combination of Aeolian and Ionian Greek with a few words of Hurrian and other languages. The Phaistos disc has been deciphered by Jean Faucounau to be a funeral record of the burial of a proto-Ionian king called Arion.

The Hittite cuneiform script didn't develop until around the middle of the 16th Century B.C. Prior to this time, iconographic hieroglyphs were used, which -strage to relate- show a scandalous similarity to Cretan hieroglyphic writing. Ironically since the Indo-Europeanizers consider the Minoan Cretans to be a non-Greek race, which means, in effect, also non-Indo-European. How then are we to explain the fact that a non-Indo-European language -the Cretan - gave birth to an Indo-European one -the Hittite? Which begs another question: Why would the Indo-European Hittites use a language and writing which was totally foreign to them, and use this strange language for four centuries?

Holy shit you're actually making up history, i saw somewhere you also claimed that Trojans were also greek XD. seriously, your dumb nationalistic rhetoric makes me laugh my ass off, linear A was written long before the hellenic peoples arrived to the eastern Mediterranean. get a lesson on archaeology.

Also, read this. But wait! You don't really like any science which doesn't suit your own opinions, uh-oh
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/3658/936f3dc9326350eb1dcf131e82bdfd126ca1.pdf

[Balthier]

Luwia was nowhere near Troy. Troy was a Minoan Greek city and then a Mycenaean Greek city. And the artifacts found do support these facts. Asia-Minor was Greek for over 3,500 years. Read Pausanius.

The region the Trojans occupied was called Dardania (not the Dardania in the Balkans which they founded later)

Wilusa was in the region Mysia and was located south of Troy and north of Lydia. The kings named in Hittite texts mentioning Wilusa are not those of any known kings of Troy that ruled during the periods they refer to. Wilusa was never a vassal state of the Hittites. It was considered to be an independent city state and its kings were on the same level as the Hittites kings.

The evidence is that the Wilusa had been the subject of Hittite conquest more than 300 years earlier, and that no Hittite records survived to prove any definite Hittite control of the city and the Hittiers acknowledged that.

Archaeologically Troy at this time and since 2200 BC was a Greek city, Minoan and Mycenean. The Hittite Empire didn’t even exist then nor did any of their Gods.

According to Hygenius, Xanthus was the son of Triopas and identifies him with Scamander (also called Xanthus). That makes the Trojans Inarchid Oceanids and thus the would have originally called themselves Achaeans or Sea Peoples..

It was Ilyus the king of Troy who attacked Pelops and kicked him out of Lydia. And it was Aeacus who bilt the walls of Troy for Laodemon a generation later.

All this feud which culminated in the Trojan War had been building for generations. That would explain why the Achaeans claimed their land.

The Achaeans occupied Troy on the opposite side of the country and the also occupied Cilixia and parts of Lydia.
Ekwesh (Egyptian) = Eyakiwash = Ayahiwash = Ayahaewah (Hebrew) = Akhaiwoi (Homeric) = Ahhiyawa (Hittite) = Aegialea (Greek) = Achaean-ous (Greek) = Ochean-ous (Greek)

Ah yeees, here you also claimed that Trojans were Greek. Good job, no one in the world believes this stupid hypothesis but yourself!

https://youtu.be/1DNyA90f_aw watch this, you're just a sorry product of philhellenism.

[celticdragongod]

Etruscan culture was very advanced and quite different from other known Italian cultures that flourished at the same time, and highly influential in the development of Roman civilization. Its origins have been debated by archaeologists, historians and linguists since time immemorial. Three main theories have emerged: that the Etruscans came from Anatolia, Southern Turkey, as propounded by the Greek historian Herotodus; that they were indigenous to the region and developed from the Iron Age Villanovan society, as suggested by another Greek historian, Dionysius of Halicarnassus; or that they originated from Northern Europe.

Now modern genetic techniques have given scientists the tools to answer this puzzle. Professor Piazza and his colleagues set out to study genetic samples from three present-day Italian populations living in Murlo, Volterra, and Casentino in Tuscany, central Italy.

The scientists compared DNA samples taken from healthy males living in Tuscany, Northern Italy, the Southern Balkans, the island of Lemnos in Greece, and the Italian islands of Sicily and Sardinia. The Tuscan samples were taken from individuals who had lived in the area for at least three generations, and were selected on the basis of their surnames, which were required to have a geographical distribution not extending beyond the linguistic area of sampling. The samples were compared with data from modern Turkish, South Italian, European and Middle-Eastern populations.

“We found that the DNA samples from individuals from Murlo and Volterra were more closely related those from near Eastern people than those of the other Italian samples", says Professor Piazza. "In Murlo particularly, one genetic variant is shared only by people from Turkey, and, of the samples we obtained, the Tuscan ones also show the closest affinity with those from Lemnos."

Herodotus' theory, much criticised by subsequent historians, states that the Etruscans emigrated from the ancient region of Lydia, on what is now the southern coast of Turkey, because of a long-running famine. Half the population was sent by the king to look for a better life elsewhere, says his account, and sailed from Smyrna (now Izmir) until they reached Umbria in Italy.

Source: European Society of Human Genetics

Do you any links to this research?

[Balthier]

Do you any links to this research?

Seriously dude, if you google the whole thing the research comes out. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/06/070616191637.htm

[hotrod]

May want to take a look at a PCA plot if you think Modern Anatolians have genetic affiliation with Ancient Anatolians. Sardinians being the closest modern population proxy to Ancient Anatolians.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Alexander_Peltzer/publication/322855628/figure/fig1/AS:616385470291978@1523969156528/PCA-plot-generated-with-EIGENSOFT-31-32-with-representative-modern-West-Eurasian.png

[Batman]

To assume the ancient Etruscans were a homogenous people that migrated from Anatolia is futile. I won’t deny possible migrations between the two regions, but the Etruscans were mostly a native Italic group. Similarly to the Sabines that inhabited the central Apennine area.

According to the Aeneid by Virgil, the ancestors of the Romans were Trojan refugees. Aeneas would sailed with the surviving Trojans around the Mediterranean eventually settled in central Italy and founded the town Lavinium in Latium. Aeneas’s descendent Romulus eventually finds the city of Rome.

[Adamastor]

So much disinformation for one thread... and in all sides. Actually Etruscan samples were leaked and they were genetically like Basques, nothing Anatolian about them.

Actually most of this area between Iberia and Northwest Italy was Basque-like at some point, Tuscany was probably in between Sardinian and Basque.

[Theudelinde]

When Chinese were living in a cave - without any sign of civilization- .. in caucasian area they were building roads, wall-cities, palace, writting and so on...

Really?Chinese civilization start at 5000 years ago.

[MinervaItalica]

To assume the ancient Etruscans were a homogenous people that migrated from Anatolia is futile. I won’t deny possible migrations between the two regions, but the Etruscans were mostly a native Italic group. Similarly to the Sabines that inhabited the central Apennine area.

They developed in Italy this the only important part.


According to the Aeneid by Virgil, the ancestors of the Romans were Trojan refugees. Aeneas would sailed with the surviving Trojans around the Mediterranean eventually settled in central Italy and founded the town Lavinium in Latium. Aeneas’s descendent Romulus eventually finds the city of Rome.

Just myths. Romans were fascinated by Greek myths so they wanted to be part of this world. On the other side Greek authors wanted to be part of such a great empire like Rome and so written everything possible to claim that Rome and its culturehas Greek traces. Rome started as a Latin settlement.

[renaissance12]

Really?Chinese civilization start at 5000 years ago.


Don't believe in "state propaganda":) .. civilization needs written Language.... -. culture no.. You should say chinese culture start at 5000 years ago..


Chinese written Language 1.200 B.C.. ( Before Christ )..


Sumerian civilization... 5.300 years old
Egyptian civilization.....4.800 years old (Proto-hieroglyphic symbol not considered )
Minoan civilization.......4.500 years old
Phoenician civilization..3.500 years old
Greek Civilization........3.200 years old
Chinese Civilization......3.200 years old
"Italian" civilization......3.000 years old
India civilization .........2.400 years old


Sigh.. we are the second youngest among the ancients....

[GiCa]

It's still a big question mark

Mostly because if by studying ancient bones from Tuscany, they may take too people from different tribes or admixed, as the etruscans went to inhabitate unfortunately the areas of the Villanova people who were indieuropean (Villanova were probably the ancestors of Umbria tribes maybe)

But studying the artifacts of etruscans they have linked them tho the people of Anatolia where all so ancient legends of Roman's stream too like the legend of Troy

For the language, is still thought as non Indo-European, but there is still no clarity wich is its link (luwian is an hypothesis stil uncertain), what is more certain are the relative langusges of etruscan like the Raethian of the Alps and the language of the island of Lemnos wich is in front of Anatolia, as the people who lived in those places were descendents of the etruscans

[Calpurnius]

So much disinformation for one thread... and in all sides. Actually Etruscan samples were leaked and they were genetically like Basques, nothing Anatolian about them.

Actually most of this area between Iberia and Northwest Italy was Basque-like at some point, Tuscany was probably in between Sardinian and Basque.

In that leaked PCA if one removes the outlier closer to central Europe, it seems like there is a small cline from the one closer to Basques to the one closer to north Italians/Tuscans. It may be, and I'm more inclined towards this, that this cline is simply due to lesser amounts of WHG due to Italian farmers fundamentally not absorbing as much like Iberian ones. But I think it's possible too that the ones shifted more towards Tuscans are those who require a third "southern" source from Anatolia/Levant. In terms of PCA they could produce such result I guess. But fundamentally I too am inclined towards essentially an analogous repetition of what happened in Iberia e.g steppe rich central Euro, Beaker related population mixing with local EEF, in the case of Italy Remedello-like but who knows what sort of farmers were living more south, perhaps there may have still been farmers with little to no WHG like those from the Balkans or LBK.
https://i.imgur.com/RDOz7wo.png

[Joachim]

Etruscan elite was surely from Anatolia. Earliest sites of Villanova culture have mycenean-agean like pottery.
Also,etruscan language is so close to anatolian languages,it seems like it developed in all its history surrounded by anatolian languages.
Alwin kloekhorst paper is a good source for this info.

What the new etruscan genetic study sampled were more likely etruscanized italics, not the etruscan elite,next time they should check the elite graves from earlier times
It was similar to arabization of north Africa,where a few arab migrants changed the langauge of natives.


Etruscan elite, language,culture, religion was from anatolia but modern day turks barely have much to do with ancient anatolians.

Modern day turks are a mix of ancient anatolians,Kavkazis,irano-kurds,central asian.
Turks in the west have slavic and thracian and celtic Ancestry making them look whiter.
Tutks don't have no component in the majority to identify as one.
They are like only 30-50% ancient anatolian, if turks think they are ancient anatolians it would be similar to mulattos thinking they were British generals of ww2.


Also,turks are only 15-25% turkic on average,only Turks from mugla and Canakkale have more than 27% turkic Ancestry

[Joachim]

May want to take a look at a PCA plot if you think Modern Anatolians have genetic affiliation with Ancient Anatolians. Sardinians being the closest modern population proxy to Ancient Anatolians.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Alexander_Peltzer/publication/322855628/figure/fig1/AS:616385470291978@1523969156528/PCA-plot-generated-with-EIGENSOFT-31-32-with-representative-modern-West-Eurasian.png

Only Neolithic anatolia was Sardinian like, during Chalcolithic and bronze age,migrations from iran and Caucasus completely changed the genetics of the region making Anatolian genetics as 50% Georgian+40% sardinidan+10% Yemeni.
Etruscans weren't Neolithic migrants but bronze age migrants so they were half chg/iran_N unlike Neolithic anatolians,so they weren't sardinians.

[Ajeje Brazorf]

Etruscan elite was surely from Anatolia. Earliest sites of Villanova culture have mycenean-agean like pottery.
Also,etruscan language is so close to anatolian languages,it seems like it developed in all its history surrounded by anatolian languages.
Alwin kloekhorst paper is a good source for this info.

What the new etruscan genetic study sampled were more likely etruscanized italics, not the etruscan elite,next time they should check the elite graves from earlier times
It was similar to arabization of north Africa,where a few arab migrants changed the langauge of natives.

Etruscan elite, language,culture, religion was from anatolia but modern day turks barely have much to do with ancient anatolians.

This is not supported by the facts though. Mycenaean-like pottery does not explain the origin of the Etruscans since this had also been found elsewhere in the Mediterranean. Etruscan is not Indo-European while the Anatolian languages were. I find it more correct to make the comparison with the Basques: the Etruscans were the Basques of Italy and had preserved an older language while absorbing Steppe-related ancestry. Check Pax Augusta's posts on Eupedia, he knows a lot about the Etruscans (much more than I do).

[Jingle Bell]

Yeah, Basically at least Half of the Genetic pool of South Europeans comes from Neolithic Anatolia, CeltIberians, Romans, Etruscans, Vascones and any European group have at least 15% of EEF, not a surprise

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