Northern Ireland violence drives out immigrant families

[Loki]

Northern Ireland violence drives out immigrant families (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/jul/16/east-timor-immigrants-fled-northern-ireland-violence)

Terrified families from East Timor flee as loyalists attack nationalist homes in Portadown in marching season clashes

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Observer/Columnist/Columnists/2011/7/16/1310827737292/Nationalist-youths-clash--007.jpg

Immigrant families from East Timor fled a Catholic area of Northern Ireland on Friday night when loyalist rioters tried to attack nationalist homes, a Sinn Fein councillor said today.

"Around 100 loyalists attacked police who prevented them attacking nationalist homes," said John O'Dowd, who is a member of the Northern Ireland Assembly.

The families from East Timor packed their bags and ran from their homes in Portadown, Co Armagh on Friday night, when the area was engulfed in violence, he said.

"They packed their bags, so distressed were they at the violence. Their neighbours tried to reassure them that they would be safe in their homes but they left," he told Reuters.

A significant number of families from East Timor have settled in the Northern Irish town, where they work in the food packing industry alongside many Poles and Portuguese.

For several hours, police were attacked by people armed with petrol bombs, bricks, bottles, fireworks and other missiles in the latest violence surrounding the high point of the loyalist marching season.

The police fired around 20 plastic bullets and arrested three people. They confirmed that loyalists provoked the violence when a planned peaceful protest was hijacked by a violent minority.

The Mayor of the local Craigavon council, Democratic Unionist Alan Carson, condemned the violence.

"This does not do anyone any good. People have a right to live peacefully and feel safe in their own homes. The violence we saw last night is something we assigned to the history books," he said.

In recent days, nearly 50 police have been wounded and dozens have been arrested during violence in both loyalist and republican areas surrounding the annual 12 July parades.

More than 500 parades were held on Tuesday across Northern Ireland, the high point of the Orange Order marching season celebrating the victory of Protestant King William of Orange over Catholic King James at the Battle of the Boyne in 1690. The majority passed off peacefully but they sparked outbreaks of street violence.

[Murphy]

Someone should have warned them. But they really should have taken the advice of their neighbours. They would have been much safer in their homes. By leaving they risked being attacked (by both communities).

[Óttar]

These loyalists are anachronisms. Neither England nor Scotland nor Westminster give a crap about them. There aren't even barely any British military personnel left in NI. What are they fighting for? Is the NHS really that good?

[Aces High]

I love the Ulster loyalists.:thumb001:

I remember once when i was on patrol in Ulster and one of the boys in my platoon was from Belfast and he says,"lets just pop in here for a little drink boys" and we ended up in a loyalist drinking club.

We were treated like royalty and all the rifles were stacked up in the corner with the umbrellas and coats whilst we had a good old time,they never let us pay for a drink.Fantastic people.....old school loyal people.

A lot of dis-service has been done to those people in the left wing British media but i remeber them as nice gentlemen and staunchly pro British and patriotic to the core.....Great people.

[Treffie]

What are they fighting for?

Interfaction rivalry - these assholes think their pride is at stake.

[Aces High]

NKnkI1ISSEw

[Murphy]

We were treated like royalty and all the rifles were stacked up in the corner with the umbrellas and coats whilst we had a good old time,they never let us pay for a drink.Fantastic people.....old school loyal people.

I suppose that was before they started popping off British security forces as well?

You were once treated as royalty by the Catholic Nationalist population. What happened there? You defended them [Catholics] from Loyalist pogroms. You stopped them [Loyalists] from burning pensioners out of their homes. Then you started shooting Catholics in cold blood and beating and dragging fathers from their homes for the sin of being Irishmen and Catholic.

But aye.. Loyalists.. great people..

Funny you mention the UEFA Cup Final. I seem to recall them running absolute riot through Manchester.. because their television broke..

But aye.. Loyalists.. great people..

[Bridie]

Strange how the media seems most concerned about the bloody East Timorese immigrants, to make them the main focus of the article. :rolleyes:

I suppose they figure that the general UK public cares more about the refugees than they do about the Irish.

[Aces High]

Catholic Nationalist population.

lol....hardly nationalist.

[Aces High]

Irish.

Ulstermen,different thing from Irish.

[Murphy]

lol....hardly nationalist.

That's it?

[Murphy]

Ulstermen,different thing from Irish.

Are Pakistani's Englishmen? I don't think you would say so.

[Bridie]

Ulstermen,different thing from Irish.Nope.

[Aces High]

Nope.

Take your head out of your arse,you know nothing stuck there in some fly blown ozzy backwater....Irish-Ulstermen the same thing....lol.:rotfl:

[Murphy]

Take your head out of your arse,you know nothing stuck there in some fly blown ozzy backwater....Irish-Ulstermen the same thing....lol.:rotfl:

She's likely spent more time in Ireland than you. Or my self for that matter. So do not presume and show some respect.

[Aces High]

She's likely spent more time in Ireland than you. Or my self for that matter.

Ireland maybe....Ulster i doubt it...;)

[Bridie]

...

Not playing.

[Murphy]

Ireland maybe....Ulster i doubt it...;)

Oh aye there's a difference isn't there :D?

[Aces High]

There sure is,Ulster is part of the UK and still in the black,Ireland on the other hand went it alone and is now bankrupt.....only the Irish lol.

[Aces High]

I was referring to the Irish in Ulster being... wait for it... Irish!

Oh you mean all those fenians sleeping ten in a bed and pissing and shitting in the corner of the room...the minority....well they can fuck off back over the border and be part of thre bankrupt republic anytime they want.

[Bridie]

Oh you mean all those fenians sleeping ten in a bed and pissing and shitting in the corner of the room...the minority....well they can fuck off back over the border and be part of thre bankrupt republic anytime they want.

What the hell do you mean "back over"? I think you got the wrong people that should fuck off back to where they came from if they don't like the fact that Tuaisceart Éireann is rightfully part of Ireland.

[Murphy]

Oh you mean all those fenians sleeping ten in a bed and pissing and shitting in the corner of the room...the minority....well they can fuck off back over the border and be part of thre bankrupt republic anytime they want.

You've obviously never been to Ireland "soldier". Wikipedia is more credible than you.

[Wyn]

Ulster is part of the UK.

Obviously, it is not. At least not all of it. But slightly more than half of the total area that was traditionally (from at least mid-1700s onwards) considered to be 'Ulster' currently lies within the United Kingdom (in terms of counties, 6 of the 9 that make up Ulster). Just under half of Ulster is under republican jurisdiction.

[Aces High]

Tuaisceart Éireann is rightfully part of Ireland.

Balls,the people who live there voted otherwise.....democracys a bitch aint it.

[Aces High]

You've obviously never been to Ireland "soldier".

Ireland once or twice on snatch and grabs......;)

[Murphy]

Balls,the people who live there voted otherwise.....democracys a bitch aint it.

A majority in Ulster (all 9 counties) voted for Nationalist politicians actually. And this was before every Tom, Dick and Harry had a vote. Ulster returned 17 Home Rule members of parliament compared to the Unionist 16. Carson based his politics on the very fact that they were a minority. I'd ask you if "dictatorship of the majority" rung any bells but clearly it wouldn't.

Look, just drop it. You are far too ignorant of Irish political history to enter itno such discussions.

I'd say democracy is a bitch, but it's never bothered the Unionists. They ignore such trivial things.

[Aces High]

Just under half of Ulster is under republican jurisdiction.

In other words a minority....deal with it.

[Bridie]

Balls,the people who live there voted otherwise.....democracys a bitch aint it.You're a bitter and twisted individual Aces. Oh yes, you love your country so much and are so loyal to it that you had to fuck off to Italy. Good one.

If only all the arseholes could be expelled so easily...

[Aces High]

A majority in Ulster (all 9 counties) voted for Nationalist politicians actually.

Hardly,the DUP came out on top.

[Wyn]

In other words a minority....deal with it.

I am not the one making claims that 'Ulster' is part of the United Kingdom. Which it clearly is not, much as you claim that it is. Just over half of it, yes indeed. But all of it, all of Ulster, no. Which is of course why you and I live in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and not the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ulster. Even the government of 'er Maj'sty da Queen doesn't include the term 'Ulster' in the official name of the territory over which it holds jurisdiction.

In all, Ulster, the traditional province of Ireland, is not part of the United Kingdom. I'm afraid you'll just have to deal with it.

[Aces High]

You're a bitter and twisted individual Aces. Oh yes, you love your country so much and are so loyal to it that you had to fuck off to Italy. Good one.


Italy,USA,Turkey,Indonesia,Iraq,Kuwait,Jordan,Alba nia,Slovenia,North sea....gotta follow the work toots.

As for bitter and twisted,maybe less time on the net and more time trying to keep your husband happy in the sack......;)

[Aces High]

I am not the one making claims that 'Ulster' is part of the United Kingdom. Which it clearly is not, much as you claim that it is. Just over half of it, yes indeed.

The majority.
End of story.

[Wyn]

The majority.

Yes, this is correct. Slightly more than half, but nowhere near all, of Ulster is part of the United Kingdom.


End of story.

Agreed. 'Ulster' is not part of the United Kingdom, but (very) slightly more than half of it is. I'm glad this has at last been settled.

[Aces High]

Yes, this is correct.

I know,this is why they recieve protection from the crown.

[Murphy]

In my pride and arrogance I made a mistake. It was indeed the Unionists who had the slight majority over the Home Rulers in Ulster in the General Election. But they were a minority in Ireland and their slim majority in no way justified any special treatments.

The same principles that applied to the Loyalists in Ulster are those which are applied to England the immigrants today. If you will not defend your British government here why are you doing so in the Irish question?

Or even ignoring immigrants etc. If Manchester votes Tory and Moss Side votes Labour and wins by a slight majority, is that enough to justify partitioning Moss Side from England?

[Aces High]

In my pride and arrogance I made a mistake.

I shall forgive you for that.Ill put it down to you being of Irish descent and it being saturday evening and the pubs being open.
As we all know,the Irish tend to think sideways when "in drink".

[Murphy]

I shall forgive you for that.Ill put it down to you being of Irish descent and it being saturday evening and the pubs being open.
As we all know,the Irish tend to think sideways when "in drink".

You have a serious cheek as an Englishman to be talking about any nation's relationship with alcohol. Ask any Spaniard about Englishmen and drink. Hell go out on any English high street and see for yourself. You simply have no high-ground in this matter.

[Aces High]

You have a serious cheek as an Englishman to be talking about any nation's relationship with alcohol. Ask any Spaniard about Englishmen and drink. Hell go out on any English high street and see for yourself. You simply have no high-ground in this matter.

Spaniards are concerned with bullfighting and the fandango,and sleeping for five hours in the afternoon.....serious matters such as alcohol consumption should only be discussed between northern Europeans.

[Murphy]

An Irishmen attempts to discussion serious political matters (election results etc.) and the Englishmen wont stop rabbiting on about alcohol.

Yet we're the alcoholics? You really are bright aren't you?

[Wyn]

discussed between northern Europeans.

Please, this thread has enough bickering without you baiting Karl into the debate! ;)

[Bridie]

The thing is, most people in The North, Catholic and Protestant alike, are sick of all the fighting and carrying on. Its mostly only a relative few loyalist shit-stirrers that like to keep things going... and they're shooting themselves in their own feet... making their home an often dangerous and shitty place to live for them and their children and keeping tourist euros from helping boost their economy in these hard economic times. Of course people like Aces don't give a toss about this... he doesn't have to live there.

[Aces High]

An Irishmen attempts to discussion serious political matters

Much akin to an african lecturing a Germanic on work ethic.

Strange how you describe yourself as scots/Irish yet cling to an irish identity (anyone in their right mind would try to hide this) and then open a thread about going on the cadge in London....capital of the hated English.......the very people you ask for charity are the very people who trounce your ancenstors.

Irish logic.:lightbul:

[Aces High]

Its mostly only a relative few loyalist shit-stirrers that like to keep things going.

Strange how the last attacks were by IRA shit stirrers.:rolleyes:

Stop looking at Ulster through green tinted spectacles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_Provisional_Irish_Republican_Army_ac tions_%282000-2010%29

[Bridie]

Strange how the last attacks were by IRA shit stirrers.:rolleyes:

Stop looking at Ulster through green tinted spectacles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_Provisional_Irish_Republican_Army_ac tions_%282000-2010%29
I don't think the IRA are without fault. In fact, these days I think there are a lot of Irish in The North who take issue with them.

[Osweo]

The same principles that applied to the Loyalists in Ulster are those which are applied to England the immigrants today.
Er, no. :ohwell:


Or even ignoring immigrants etc. If Manchester votes Tory and Moss Side votes Labour and wins by a slight majority, is that enough to justify partitioning Moss Side from England?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/1xtra/events/hgweekend05/gallery/mixtape_manchester/4.jpg
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/300000/images/_302425_moss_side300.jpg
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/05_02/hood1sCP2405_468x431.jpg
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00444/news-graphics-2007-_444372a.jpg
Yes please!!!

And we'll put a wall around it. Once they've all shot and stabbed each other, we take it back. Nice one. :)

Obviously, though, your comparison is a pile of wank.

Its mostly only a relative few loyalist shit-stirrers that like to keep things going...
:rolleyes2:

[Fortis in Arduis]

I don't think the IRA are without fault. In fact, these days I think there are a lot of Irish in The North who take issue with them.

Oh, whatever...

[poiuytrewq0987]

Long live the Queen! :D

[Mercury]

I love the royal family

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kogaRkwGhZA

[BeerBaron]

Long live the Queen! :D

Ya thats what I thought, you are the same guy who put all the threads about serbia up, and you were supposedly in sweden too, now its changed to england with arizona?:wink

[Joe McCarthy]

Ulster loyalists may be the most 'racist' Western demographic. That thread I had on the most racist country indicated as such. I'm unsure how they manage it, but they seem somewhat insulated from the PC on the other island.

[Bridie]

Ulster loyalists may be the most 'racist' Western demographic. That thread I had on the most racist country indicated as such. I'm unsure how they manage it, but they seem somewhat insulated from the PC on the other island.I don't think they're insulated, they just don't give a shit. To be honest, the Northern Irish, whether Catholic or Protestant, are some of the toughest, boldest, most unapologetic people I've ever met/seen in my life. They've had to be.




:rolleyes2:
I'm sorry if you don't like what I'm saying, Os, but this has been my observation (when in Northern Ireland) as well as being a view shaped by many a conversation with average Northern Irish people. Not fanatics, for the most part, just ordinary people. Granted, I know I don't know the full story, by far, but I've come to realise that there are great discrepancies between what the UK media reports of the goings on in Northern Ireland and the truth of it.

I've never been in Northern Ireland when there has been a republican attack on Protestants, but there have been more than a few loyalist attacks on Catholics, and guess what? They weren't reported by the UK media to my knowledge (and I was looking out for it). One of the attacks was a fire bombing of a Catholic Primary school just up the road from where I was staying at the time. (Thankfully the attack took place at night when the school was abandoned.) And it was during the Marching Season.... so one would have expected that if there were going to be any terrorist attacks at that time, most of them would have been undertaken by republicans... yet there were none.

Orange walks in Northern Ireland should be banned.

[Peasant]

Orange walks in Northern Ireland should be banned.

And Republican ones to then?

[Bridie]

And Republican ones to then?

No. (As long as they're peaceful.) Northern Ireland is the ancestral homeland of the Republicans and the people they care for (ie, the Irish).

If the Protestant portion of the population of Northern Ireland wish to remain there, they should have respect for the native peoples and try to come to some kind of reconciliation. It is the former who bear the burden of historical misjustice.

I have the same opinion of Australians... those of British descent or aboriginal. I would not support demonstrations in Australia that disrespect the native peoples and mock the pain that they have endured over the last 200 or so years; but should the aboriginals wish to deomonstrate in defiance of British colonisation and domination, I think it should be supported... it would be understandable afterall and perhaps could provide a catalist for reconciliation. The native peoples have a right to have their voices heard. It is the responsibility of Australians of British descent to overcome past wrongs and set a right path for the future.

[Aces High]

Orange walks in Northern Ireland should be banned.

Strange how you never advocate the banning of gay pride marches through European cities but favour the banning of Orange order marches.....by people who hold a fearsome loyalty to the crown and the UK,people who love their country and value honour and comradeship above al and want a parade to celebrate their traditions.
These people should be respected for holding out and fighting off all comers in this age of multi racial pc bullshit.

Shows where your loyalties lie.

[Bridie]

Strange how you never advocate the banning of gay pride marches through European cities
If the discussion had been about homosexuality and the subject of gay rights demonstrations came to mind, I certainly would advocate banning them. Don't why you would think that I wouldn't.



but favour the banning of Orange order marches.....by people who hold a fearsome loyalty to the crown and the UK,people who love their country and value honour and comradeship above al and want a parade to celebrate their traditions.
These people should be respected for holding out and fighting off all comers in this age of multi racial pc bullshit.

Shows where your loyalties lie.The only reason they show such loyalty to the Crown is because they don't want to lose their position in Northern Ireland. Selfish reasons. "Honour" is the last word that comes to mind when I think of these people. "Honour" includes confronting and taking responsibility for one's history... not hiding behind a veil of false self-righteousness and lies. They may value comradeship, that is fine, but as colonials they have a responsibility to reconcile their past with their present and the future. Its not something I expect you to understand.

If they really feel such a loyalty and undying love for Britain then they should go back home, instead of continually supporting tensions and conflicts within the UK borders (which only end up costing the UK tax payers and damage the UK's international reputation further anyway!). In reality, they are doing no favours to Britain, only to themselves (and not even then really, if you look at it realistically).

Where my loyalties lay? Well, that's a complicated issue and one for a different thread.

[Murphy]

A majority in Ulster (all 9 counties) voted for Nationalist politicians actually. And this was before every Tom, Dick and Harry had a vote. Ulster returned 17 Home Rule members of parliament compared to the Unionist 16. Carson based his politics on the very fact that they were a minority. I'd ask you if "dictatorship of the majority" rung any bells but clearly it wouldn't.


Hardly,the DUP came out on top.


In my pride and arrogance I made a mistake. It was indeed the Unionists who had the slight majority over the Home Rulers in Ulster in the General Election.

It appears I was wrong again. Wrong about being wrong. Parnell's Irish National League did return 17 Home Rulers to parliament compared to the 16 Unionist in Ulster in the 1885 election.

[Murphy]

Obviously, though, your comparison is a pile of wank.

Actually, this makes it more pertinent. The residents of Moss Side are culturally, ethnically and historically different from the rest of Manchester's population no? And if they voted differently to the majority of Manchester, then partition of Moss Side is the correct answer to the situation.

Don't get too wound up Os. I am using British reasoning here!

[Murphy]

by people who hold a fearsome loyalty to the crown and the UK, people who love their country

No they do not. They are loyal to none but themselves. The British state and Crown is simply convenient for them to maintain their ascendancy in Ireland. How loyal were yer Loyalists when Carson was arming them and parading them with his fellow Unionists threatening civil war against the Crown?

Again you are demonstrating your ignorance of Irish history. I do not blame you for this. You are British and in fact you are simply showing why British government in Ireland has never and will never work.


and value honour and comradeship above al

Is that why Loyalist paramilitary groups have been known to feed intelligence about their "comrades" to the IRA?

If you had ever served in Northern Ireland you would know that the Loyalist terror squads are simply that. Terror squads squabbling over drug patches. Loyalists will kill one another if they walk into the wrong pub.


and want a parade to celebrate their traditions.

You've obviously never been to an Orange march either. They are about taunting Catholics and getting drunk. Nothing else.

[Óttar]

Orange walks in Northern Ireland should be banned.
Certainly through Catholic districts in any event.

[007]

What the hell do you mean "back over"? I think you got the wrong people that should fuck off back to where they came from if they don't like the fact that Tuaisceart Éireann is rightfully part of Ireland.

Why is it "rightfully part of Ireland"?

[007]

Ulster loyalists may be the most 'racist' Western demographic. That thread I had on the most racist country indicated as such. I'm unsure how they manage it, but they seem somewhat insulated from the PC on the other island.

As Masty says they're under attack and have had to learn to fight and stand together. They're an example to the rest of us

[Osweo]

The only reason they show such loyalty to the Crown is because they don't want to lose their position in Northern Ireland. Selfish reasons.
'Selfish' to want to preserve their autonomy and self-determination? Dearie me, MB, aren't those things the sacred DUTY of any given people?


"Honour" is the last word that comes to mind when I think of these people. "Honour" includes confronting and taking responsibility for one's history... not hiding behind a veil of false self-righteousness and lies.
I KNOW firsthand what it is that they are against. The Republicans are as much or more guilty of historical liberties. I grew up listening to cloying sentimentalist Rebel Songs and traditions of a madly one-sided version of history from the Catholics in my own family. In the past, Northern Ireland was a means of keeping Protestant kids out of a school system that encouraged a madly partisan approach to Irish history. There are orange-tinted AND green-tinted specs out there.

The interesting difference is the motivation, though. The Republican side is full of weird ideological baggage from Marxism and the like, whereas the Loyalist is more motivated by simple urges to protect and defend one's people from attack. I've said it elsewhere, but it's interesting that, while in prison, Loyalists mostly read shitty fiction and pornography, while Republicans read politically radical literature. Ordinary proletariat versus radical fanatics.

but as colonials they have a responsibility to reconcile their past with their present and the future.
THAT is just so hilariously absurd! COLONIALS!!! Christ almighty. This is an inter-European thing, not some primitive natives versus invading oppressors bullshit. There has ALWAYS been populational movement between the two main islands of our archipelago. The 'Irish Nationalist' inability to deal with with this is THEIR failure to 'reconcile their past'.

If they really feel such a loyalty and undying love for Britain then they should go back home,
They have a home, and it's in Ireland. They're a mixture of different British AND Irish stocks, formed in a new environment. They are now a special people of their own, and as such require a homeland. Obviously, once that principle is accepted, we can sort out the particulars in a more amicable manner (and are doing nowadays).

instead of continually supporting tensions and conflicts within the UK borders (which only end up costing the UK tax payers and damage the UK's international reputation further anyway!). In reality, they are doing no favours to Britain, only to themselves (and not even then really, if you look at it realistically).
Britons are more ready to pay out when it means defending our ethnic and cultural kin. Makes a lot more sense than all the other side of the world crap that we get involved in.

As for 'international reputation', giving a fuck for that instantly marks you out as a pushover. You think China gives a fuck about the do-gooders whining about Tibet?

I don't think they're insulated, they just don't give a shit. To be honest, the Northern Irish, whether Catholic or Protestant, are some of the toughest, boldest, most unapologetic people I've ever met/seen in my life. They've had to be.
Yes, and despite my southern Irish upbringing influences, I've always got on with Ulster Proddies when I've met them. There's a manliness in them that is lacking over here in too many, which tells itself in our shit political life and general declining social standards. :(


I'm sorry if you don't like what I'm saying, Os, but this has been my observation (when in Northern Ireland) as well as being a view shaped by many a conversation with average Northern Irish people. Not fanatics, for the most part, just ordinary people. Granted, I know I don't know the full story, by far, but I've come to realise that there are great discrepancies between what the UK media reports of the goings on in Northern Ireland and the truth of it.
Fuck the UK media, I barely get any exposure to it these days. Many people here know soldiers who've served over in Ulster, though, and that's a great source for the opinions of the average Brit on it all.


I've never been in Northern Ireland when there has been a republican attack on Protestants, but there have been more than a few loyalist attacks on Catholics, and guess what? They weren't reported by the UK media to my knowledge (and I was looking out for it). One of the attacks was a fire bombing of a Catholic Primary school just up the road from where I was staying at the time. (Thankfully the attack took place at night when the school was abandoned.) And it was during the Marching Season.... so one would have expected that if there were going to be any terrorist attacks at that time, most of them would have been undertaken by republicans... yet there were none.
I don't approve of such pointless attacks, but I can at least state that the Republican wankers could have killed ME several times, notably the Manchester bombing, when I was actually in Town, and heard the bang not too far from where I was.

Orange walks in Northern Ireland should be banned.
Those so sensitive to the taunt that is an Orange March should move away from the routes. It's not as if they're a modern phenomenon. :coffee:

Alternatively, they can move south. My Uncle Paul's dad did, and did very well for himself in Dublin.

No. (As long as they're peaceful.) Northern Ireland is the ancestral homeland of the Republicans and the people they care for (ie, the Irish).
There was a lot of internal migration in Ireland in the Nineteenth Century, bring many Catholics north to work. There ARE true Gaelic natives in British-ruled Ulster, but not all the Catholics come under that heading. I don't know about any statistics for this though. :( It's just a good example of how things there are FAR less simple than they seem.

Northern Ireland is ALSO the homeland of the Ulster Protestants too, however, for reasons I outlined above. They were MADE there, and are an integral part of the Irish story. As long as they refuse a United Ireland, I support helping them in this (and NO longer, should they by their OWN choice change their minds!)

If the Protestant portion of the population of Northern Ireland wish to remain there, they should have respect for the native peoples and try to come to some kind of reconciliation. It is the former who bear the burden of historical misjustice.
My heart bleeds, Kumbaya, We shall overcome... :rolleyes:


I have the same opinion of Australians... those of British descent or aboriginal. I would not support demonstrations in Australia that disrespect the native peoples and mock the pain that they have endured over the last 200 or so years;
THe fact that you can only discuss this matter in terms relevant to the Antipodes hardly helps your case.


but should the aboriginals wish to deomonstrate in defiance of British colonisation and domination, I think it should be supported... it would be understandable afterall and perhaps could provide a catalist for reconciliation.
In the present victimisation culture of entitlement, such things should not be supported.

The native peoples have a right to have their voices heard. It is the responsibility of Australians of British descent to overcome past wrongs and set a right path for the future.
How many Abos are left? It's a piss poor comparison for the situation in Ireland. The numerical proportions are completely out.

It appears I was wrong again. Wrong about being wrong. Parnell's Irish National League did return 17 Home Rulers to parliament compared to the 16 Unionist in Ulster in the 1885 election.
Why is the nine-county Ulster anything to measure the issue of lack of Republican support among most Irish Protestants?

Ulster is a line drawn on a map. Its borders have shifted many times in history. At one time, Donegal, Tyrone, Fermanagh, and parts of the other counties weren't even considered part of it!

The only relevant geography in the Northern Irish case is the HUMAN geography of settlement patterns. The 6 Counties might not be ideal for that, but it's a bit more relevant than the mythical notion of an Ulster that only really existed due to early modern English map-making.

Actually, this makes it more pertinent. The residents of Moss Side are culturally, ethnically and historically different from the rest of Manchester's population no? And if they voted differently to the majority of Manchester, then partition of Moss Side is the correct answer to the situation.

Don't get too wound up Os. I am using British reasoning here!
That same daft reasoning can be used on Irish immigrants in Britain. We mostly sorted out our sectarian problem centuries ago, only for yous to re-import it. :rolleyes2:

Descendants of Irish immigrants here should integrate and stop bringing up the problems of the 'Old Country' which their grandparents left.

[Murphy]

Why is the nine-county Ulster anything to measure the issue of lack of Republican support among most Irish Protestants?

Ulster is a line drawn on a map. Its borders have shifted many times in history. At one time, Donegal, Tyrone, Fermanagh, and parts of the other counties weren't even considered part of it!

The only relevant geography in the Northern Irish case is the HUMAN geography of settlement patterns. The 6 Counties might not be ideal for that, but it's a bit more relevant than the mythical notion of an Ulster that only really existed due to early modern English map-making.

Okay, take the human element. Protestants were only a majority in 4 of the 6 counties when that border was drawn and in those four their majorities were essentially 60/40.

Those are better odds for consideration of particular treatment than what the Protestants had when the issue was brought to parliament.


That same daft reasoning can be used on Irish immigrants in Britain. We mostly sorted out our sectarian problem centuries ago, only for yous to re-import it. :rolleyes2:

That is a bald-faced lie Osweo. Up until 1829 Catholics in England could do sweet-fuck all. Centuries ago? Bull. You never sorted out the sectarian issues in England, they were rife at ever level of your society and they are still ingrained in the upper classes today.

And need I remind you that the force that brought about the relief of Catholics in England was an Irishman?


Descendants of Irish immigrants here should integrate

Englishmen should properly integrate into the modernist, materialist, multicultural cooking-pot that is England today.

Why should you have an identity as Englishmen? Integrate with your global neighbours Osweo!


and stop bringing up the problems of the 'Old Country' which their grandparents left.

We face the exact same problems in Britain that our grandparents and great-grandparents faced in "the Old Country" (I don't see what's wrong with saying Ireland).

[Aces High]

If they really feel such a loyalty and undying love for Britain then they should go back home,.

They are at home.

[Osweo]

Okay, take the human element. Protestants were only a majority in 4 of the 6 counties when that border was drawn and in those four their majorities were essentially 60/40.
I would have drawn it differently, perhaps. I wasn't there at the negotiating table. We mustn't forget, however, that centuries of Protestant culture outside that border were given up on, and are now largely consigned to utter oblivion. No excuse for fuckers bombing my Manchester, though!


Those are better odds for consideration of particular treatment than what the Protestants had when the issue was brought to parliament.
?Que? Ni thuigin. :confused:

That is a bald-faced lie Osweo.
The words 'Osweo' and 'bald-faced' do NOT belong in one sentence. ;) Remember the Gerry-Adams-a-like you are addressing...


Up until 1829 Catholics in England could do sweet-fuck all. Centuries ago? Bull.
Got any figures for the numbers of English recusants? Few and far between, or fuck all, on the whole.


You never sorted out the sectarian issues in England, they were rife at ever level of your society and they are still ingrained in the upper classes today.
The Earls of Derby and Arundel, and a handful of their hangers on. A curious footnote in English history, but an irrelevance in scale.


And need I remind you that the force that brought about the relief of Catholics in England was an Irishman?
Wellington was less Irish than the idiot Proddy hooligans who prompted this thread. ;) Do I HAVE to dredge up the old 'born in a stable' epigram?!? :rolleyes:


Englishmen should properly integrate into the modernist, materialist, multicultural cooking-pot that is England today.

Why should you have an identity as Englishmen? Integrate with your global neighbours Osweo!
England and Englishness is a reality all around me. 'Integration' and the 'global community' are abstractions, utopian ideals and contentless slogans. :cool:

We face the exact same problems in Britain that our grandparents and great-grandparents faced in "the Old Country" (I don't see what's wrong with saying Ireland).
I said 'Old Country' cos that's how you sometimes hear Americans talking in films, when reminiscing about where distant ancestors had left from.

My grandmother's problem in Ireland was not being able to get whatever qualification they had in those days to get a decent civil service job. All because her GAELIC was rubbish. She came here, and her skill at the numerical side of intelligence helped her do well in her career, just as she would have done Beyond, had not the linguistic skill been so demanded for political reasons. None of this sounds like a problem I face today. :shrug:

Her husband's Irish ancestors (my male line) left Ireland some time after 1841 and before 1851. I don't know what their problems had been, but my best guess involves potatoes and an unresolved land question. Neither of which are pertinent today.

[Aces High]

They may value comradeship, that is fine, but as colonials they have a responsibility to reconcile their past with their present and the future. Its not something I expect you to understand.


Dont pigeon hole me toots,because ill just fly out of it.

I was born in Bulawayo,i could speak kitchen kaffir and swahili before i could speak English.....Sawa.;)

[007]

Or even ignoring immigrants etc. If Manchester votes Tory and Moss Side votes Labour and wins by a slight majority, is that enough to justify partitioning Moss Side from England?

What a ridiculous comparison.


You have a serious cheek as an Englishman to be talking about any nation's relationship with alcohol. Ask any Spaniard about Englishmen and drink. Hell go out on any English high street and see for yourself. You simply have no high-ground in this matter.

The Irish have long been noted for heavy drinking. North Americans of Irish descent brag about it. Meanwhile I don't need to ask any foreigners about English drinking, I can see for myself. Getting legless is frowned on in every pub I've ever been in. I can't speak for the lower-class areas of the big cities but there was a very interesting thread on here once over showing the mugshots and names of people arrested for drunkenness in London. You'd have been forgiven for thinking the city in question was Dublin.

[Bridie]

Oh bloody hell lads... with all of these responses to my posts I'll be here all day replying! :( :p You bastards won't have the last word!!! :shakefist



Why is it "rightfully part of Ireland"?Why should that little island be divided? The majority of Irish aren't happy about it and its their island! A bit of respect for the ancient peoples of that land is in order.



As Masty says they're under attack and have had to learn to fight and stand together. They're an example to the rest of usAgreed. But the same can be said of the Irish in The North. At some stage, I hope they all realise that reconciliation can be the only way to having some peace in their lands. If that can't be acheived than those who largely descend from the Ulster Scots and are hell-bent on continuing tensions, should be the ones to bugger off.



'Selfish' to want to preserve their autonomy and self-determination? Dearie me, MB, aren't those things the sacred DUTY of any given people? Selfish when they don't care that the Irish need autonomy and self-determination in their own lands. They want rights for themselves that they historically have stripped away from others. There is a burden of history weighing on them that hasn't been resolved... that should, by rightly, put them in a disadventageous position.



I KNOW firsthand what it is that they are against.And here's where you try to convince me (and everyone else) that my opinions are less credible than yours...



The Republicans are as much or more guilty of historical liberties. I grew up listening to cloying sentimentalist Rebel Songs and traditions of a madly one-sided version of history from the Catholics in my own family. In the past, Northern Ireland was a means of keeping Protestant kids out of a school system that encouraged a madly partisan approach to Irish history. There are orange-tinted AND green-tinted specs out there.
Many republicans have spent a lifetime trying to defend their own people and retain a sense of pride, self-esteem and dignity in the face of a history that has seen them degraded, even treated as sub-humans, in their own land.

There may be orange and green tinted spectacles, but I wear neither. I think my views are rather reasonable and unbiased. This is the advantage of being able to view things from the outside... I don't have the same emotional charge, skewing things in regards to this issue that many others do.



The interesting difference is the motivation, though. The Republican side is full of weird ideological baggage from Marxism and the like,I know what you're talking about and I don't subscribe to these sorts of social and political views personally, but its their country (rightfully) and if that's the way the majority of them want to swing, then its their prerogative and none of mine (or your - you've chosen your side) business.



THAT is just so hilariously absurd! COLONIALS!!! Christ almighty. This is an inter-European thing, not some primitive natives versus invading oppressors bullshit. There has ALWAYS been populational movement between the two main islands of our archipelago. The 'Irish Nationalist' inability to deal with with this is THEIR failure to 'reconcile their past'.That it is inter-European, and even relates to peoples that are genetically closely related to each other, is irrelevant. Yes, there has always been population exchanges, but we're speaking of systematic colonialism and the effects on the native population at the time here. If if makes you feel better, I can exchange the word "colonials" for "planters". :p Makes no difference anyway.

Of course there are major differences between Australia's and Northern Ireland's situations... I really only referred to Australia and my stance on our situation to clarify that I'm not a hypocrit (supporting natives and reconciliation in some countries, but not in my own).



They have a home, and it's in Ireland.Sure, but if they want to stay there then they need to show respect to the long-time native population and assimilate.... if the Irish wish to let them.



They're a mixture of different British AND Irish stocks, formed in a new environment. They are now a special people of their own, and as such require a homeland. Obviously, once that principle is accepted, we can sort out the particulars in a more amicable manner (and are doing nowadays). They're a mixture for sure... but many of them have sided with the historically divided group of their choice. Just as you have. ;)

There are many in Northern Ireland (both Catholic and Protestant) that are trying to sort things out and find some peace at last, but there are still others who seem to want to prolong tensions and divisions indefinitely.



Britons are more ready to pay out when it means defending our ethnic and cultural kin.Oh, so you admit now that there is an ethnic and cultural division in these mixed people of British and Irish stocks? Yes, you see, it has become about "picking sides" and not about what is right or honourable.



As for 'international reputation', giving a fuck for that instantly marks you out as a pushover. You think China gives a fuck about the do-gooders whining about Tibet?Britain is in no position strong enough at the moment to disregard their international reputation. Surely you know that in an increasing globalised world, this option would be foolish.



Yes, and despite my southern Irish upbringing influences, I've always got on with Ulster Proddies when I've met them. Probably in part because you've chosen your side and your loyalties.



There's a manliness in them that is lacking over here in too many, which tells itself in our shit political life and general declining social standards.
Its probably their infusion of Irish blood. :p (j/k)

The same could be said for the Irish in the north too though... I think that the saying "necessity is the mother of invention" is relevant here. Surely in many first world countries now, people have been wrapped in cotton wool for too long and its only served to weaken whole populations to a pathetic extent.



Those so sensitive to the taunt that is an Orange March should move away from the routes. It's not as if they're a modern phenomenon. You don't need to be sensitive to feel the intended defiant mockery of the Irish of those marches.



Alternatively, they can move south. My Uncle Paul's dad did, and did very well for himself in Dublin.
Why the hell should they have to move away from their ancestral homelands???



There was a lot of internal migration in Ireland in the Nineteenth Century, bring many Catholics north to work. There ARE true Gaelic natives in British-ruled Ulster, but not all the Catholics come under that heading. I don't know about any statistics for this though. It's just a good example of how things there are FAR less simple than they seem.
That's why I'm careful when using religion to define the Northern Irish. Nevertheless, generally speaking, in Northern Ireland; Catholic = Irish ancestry, if not in whole, then at least in a large part.



Fuck the UK media, I barely get any exposure to it these days. Many people here know soldiers who've served over in Ulster, though, and that's a great source for the opinions of the average Brit on it all. You'd have to be crazy to think that the media doesn't play a major role in shaping people's perceptions and opinions.



Northern Ireland is ALSO the homeland of the Ulster Protestants too, however, for reasons I outlined above. They were MADE there, and are an integral part of the Irish story.They (generalising grossly here) should stop trying to make life hell for Catholics then and respect their fellow countrymen... Oh but that's right... the ethnic divisions are still there and their loyalties are to the Crown, not to the people whom they live with. Hence they're NOT considered to be fellow countrymen. What does this tell you?

In one instance you're trying to say that there are no real ethnic divisions between the Irish and Ulster Scots (they're all mixed anyway and share a common history), in the next you contradict yourself (constantly) making it obvious that you do actually recognise differences between the two populations.



As long as they refuse a United Ireland, I support helping them in this (and NO longer, should they by their OWN choice change their minds!)Why no support for republicans, only for loyalists/unionists?



THe fact that you can only discuss this matter in terms relevant to the Antipodes hardly helps your case."... only discuss this matter..." That's a bit of a stretch. ;) I've only mentioned Australia ONCE, and as I pointed out before, it was really only to convey that I'm not a hypocrit (that I don't have the attitude; what's good for them isn't good for me).



They are at home.Well, they should stop crapping all over it then, shouldn't they?



Dont pigeon hole me toots,because ill just fly out of it.

I was born in Bulawayo,i could speak kitchen kaffir and swahili before i could speak English.....Sawa.Ah, so you're a Zimbabwean "colonial"... I thought you seemed a bit ballsy for an Englishman.

At any rate, you would still find the need for reconciliation a hard concept to understand, I would say. Africa is a whole different ball game... if I were an African colonial, I would just get the fuck out. Reconciliation is of no good there.



The Irish have long been noted for heavy drinking. North Americans of Irish descent brag about it. Meanwhile I don't need to ask any foreigners about English drinking, I can see for myself. Getting legless is frowned on in every pub I've ever been in. I can't speak for the lower-class areas of the big cities but there was a very interesting thread on here once over showing the mugshots and names of people arrested for drunkenness in London. You'd have been forgiven for thinking the city in question was Dublin. The English have an international reputation these days for being unable to handle their liquor and for irresponsible binge drinking, hooliganism etc. (To be fair, I'm sure Australians have a similar reputation, embarrassingly enough for me.) Whether fair or not, an Englishman is in no position to criticise Irish drinking habits. ;)

[Murphy]

The Republican side is full of weird ideological baggage from Marxism and the like, whereas the Loyalist is more motivated by simple urges to protect and defend one's people from attack. I've said it elsewhere, but it's interesting that, while in prison, Loyalists mostly read shitty fiction and pornography, while Republicans read politically radical literature. Ordinary proletariat versus radical fanatics.

You really need to read some Peter Taylor Osweo. Socialism is rife in Loyalist paramilitary circles. They read the exact same political literature that IRA prisoners read. It was one of the reasons why the Loyalists met the IRA in the secret prison meetings to agree a ceasefire (and in on instance they killed on of their own after he insulted the "taigs").

You are as guilty of painting a black-and-white picture of Ireland as the Republican mythologists you despise. I realise that Irish history is not black and white. Irish Catholics/Nationalists have done evil things in our history that cannot be justified. But you cannot seem to demonstrate any sort of intellectual honesty about the Loyalists.

[The Ripper]

I've picked my side.

http://www.cafehistoria.net/photos/uncategorized/2007/08/01/brits_out.jpg

:evilb:

[SwordoftheVistula]

in Australia that disrespect the native peoples and mock the pain that they have endured over the last 200 or so years

Oh man...indoor plumbing...electricity...air conditioning

http://reelybored.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/horror-heading.jpg

I sure hope they don't get the modern evil of internet cuz the last thing we need is a bunch of retarded abos posting youtube videos

[Bridie]

Oh man...indoor plumbing...electricity...air conditioning

http://reelybored.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/horror-heading.jpg

I sure hope they don't get the modern evil of internet cuz the last thing we need is a bunch of retarded abos posting youtube videosOh what sparkling and witty repartee. :rolleyes2:

[Cheesypie]

Timorese in Ireland? What the fuck are they doing there?

[Wyn]

I would have drawn it differently, perhaps. I wasn't there at the negotiating table.

The idea that Loyalism/Unionism is somehow linked to democratic principles or the rights/wants of the 'majority' is one that's frequently pushed and deserves more attention than you seem to be prepared to give it. If this majority-favouring position had any truth to it, certain counties that were thrown into 'Northern Ireland' would not have been. It simply cannot be avoided.


We mustn't forget, however, that centuries of Protestant culture outside that border were given up on, and are now largely consigned to utter oblivion.

This is probably true for the Irish themselves as they are a primarily Catholic people and so their history naturally maintains a Catholic focus.

But in scholarly discussion, the importance of historic Irish Protestantism is to my reckoning something that receives a fair amount of attention. When I began researching the history of Irish republicanism for example, one of the first things that I picked up was that it had its beginnings among Prods and that said Prods, especially the Prezzies, were originally some its most active supporters. THAT is an important aspect of Irish Protestant history and almost any source on the history of Ireland's republican movement devotes attention to it.

[Fortis in Arduis]

Indeed, it should not be about religion, although I notice that Murphy has been employing sectarian language right the way through this thread, which is very revealing indeed.

Roman Catholic preservation. ;)

[007]

Oh bloody hell lads... with all of these responses to my posts I'll be here all day replying! :( :p You bastards won't have the last word!!! :shakefist


Why should that little island be divided? The majority of Irish aren't happy about it and its their island! A bit of respect for the ancient peoples of that land is in order.

Why shouldn't it be divided? What makes it so special that it must be united? This argument is particularly offensive since it's most ardent supporters are usually equally determined that the island of Great Britain right next door be divided as much as possible. Furthermore, it's never been united before except while it was under British rule.



If that can't be acheived than those who largely descend from the Ulster Scots and are hell-bent on continuing tensions, should be the ones to bugger off.

It's not the Loyalists who are "hell-bent on continuing tensions". It's the Republicans who want to change the status quo by joining the Republic, remember


Selfish when they don't care that the Irish need autonomy and self-determination in their own lands.

What about autonomy and self-determination for the Loyalist community?



Of course there are major differences between Australia's and Northern Ireland's situations... I really only referred to Australia and my stance on our situation to clarify that I'm not a hypocrit (supporting natives and reconciliation in some countries, but not in my own).

I think the abos should fall to their knees and thank the Aussies for lifting them out of their stone age squalor.



Sure, but if they want to stay there then they need to show respect to the long-time native population and assimilate.... if the Irish wish to let them.

Assimilation is a dirty word, Mary.



Oh, so you admit now that there is an ethnic and cultural division in these mixed people of British and Irish stocks? Yes, you see, it has become about "picking sides" and not about what is right or honourable.

Supporting your kin is right and honourable


The English have an international reputation these days for being unable to handle their liquor and for irresponsible binge drinking, hooliganism etc. (To be fair, I'm sure Australians have a similar reputation, embarrassingly enough for me.) Whether fair or not, an Englishman is in no position to criticise Irish drinking habits. ;)

Nonsense, as I've just said the Irish themselves boast of their love of drunkeness while the slur against the English is very recent and mostly promoted by anglo-hating Spaniards like Moornydd and tabloid newspapers.

[The Ripper]

Timorese in Ireland? What the fuck are they doing there?

On the run from inter-ethnic violence.

Ironic, you might call it. :D

[Aces High]

Ah, so you're a Zimbabwean

Never been there......i was born in Rhodesia.

[Aces High]

I realise that Irish history is not black and white.

Black and tan.

[Murphy]

Black and tan.

I disagree with Osweo. In my view he's simply wrong. But you are nothing but a vulgar troll. Osweo is genuine and honest in his support of the Ulster Protestant (he's just misguided).

You on the other hand are an arsehole. But then I am obviously the stupid one for entertaining your antics. Well no more.

[007]

But then I am obviously the stupid one for entertaining your antics.

If not for that then definitely for believing the British Army shot paddies "in cold blood just for being Irish". :rolleyes:

[Beorn]

Another thread that is tl;dr.

Word is the riots went down on both sides.

Who the fuck wants East Timorons..Timoreans...??....darkies in their nation?

Well done NI. It seems the West can learn from your actions.

[Orange&BlueBear]

If not for that then definitely for believing the British Army shot paddies "in cold blood just for being Irish". :rolleyes:

Especially when a large proportion of the British Army are paddies or born in England of some sort of Irish ancestry.

But sure let the clowns, live in their own little fantasy world, we have all heard their rhetoric time and time again, they have to keep telling their lies just to convince themselves.