23andme Southern Italian breakdown

[Samnium]

In Anthrogenica Sikeliot has sent some southern italian results. As I've said Cosenza has 10/12% less MENA than Reggio Calabria and Catanzaro, and has a lot more greek and balkan. One person has 18% greek and balkan ! That's huge. It's very close to apulian result. Some have even recent ancestors from Ionian islands !

https://i.imgur.com/H51lUin.png

Reggio :
https://i.imgur.com/eVXHupt.png

Messina instead has 40% MENA.
https://i.imgur.com/U5mf4sg.png

My guess about Cosenza was correct.






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[Samnium]

Really Messina is outlying, I do think that Reggio results will come as Messina, being separated only by 3km of sea.

[Inquizzzitor]

Messina Province has always been the most southeastwardly shifting of the Sicilian regions, on par with that of Calabria...on a genetic plot some are approaching Cyprus, even, though not quite.

[Samnium]

Messina Province has always been the most southeastwardly shifting of the Sicilian regions, on par with that of Calabria...on a genetic plot some are approaching Cyprus, even, though not quite.

I have always known that Messina was very outlying in a Levant direction but not in that proportion. I mean 41% of MENA it's huge, it's most than halfway between Lebanese and North-Italian, this person is closer to Levantines than to 96% of europeans. (I have not calculated this, it's just a basic guess)

[Pine]

Getting a location doesn't mean you have recent ancestry from said location.

[Samnium]

Getting a location doesn't mean you have recent ancestry from said location.

With such percentages I think so. Recent ancestry don't mean 30 years ago, it can be 100/200/300 years, but it has remained unchanged because of the isolation of Calabria. Especially Northern Calabria, I would make a post about that, it's incredible how remote is this region. What's tricky is to find the historical cause of this, Arbereshe are unlikely to be the answer so we have to digging, I will do some historical researchs to find if it's true.

By the way there is a result with low greek and balkan but at the same time with lower MENA, it's because of Italic input I think.

[Pine]

With such percentages I think so. Recent ancestry don't mean 30 years ago, it can be 100/200/300 years, but it has remained unchanged because of the isolation of Calabria. Especially Northern Calabria, I would make a post about that, it's incredible how remote is this region. What's tricky is to find the historical cause of this, Arbereshe are unlikely to be the answer so we have to digging, I will do some historical researchs to find if it's true.

By the way there is a result with low greek and balkan but at the same time with lower MENA, it's because of Italic input I think.

You can get a location from sharing single digit segments, so it can be even further back.

[Nassbean]

is there any historical explanation for this 40% ??

[Adamastor]

It seems that Sikeliot's ideas about Middle Eastern admixture on some South Italians were true. Having 40% Middle Eastern on 23andme is a lot. The question is if that admixture is ''native'' or acquired recently. It seems there was a lot of Middle Eastern blood running through ancient Italy.

Just for comparison, I'm mostly Tyrolean + Friulian + Venetian with some Portuguese and South Italian. I score 0% Middle Eastern. MyHeritage gave me 12% but I think it's bullshit since my parents got none (and I'm also mostly Balkanic there lol).

[Samnium]

You can get a location from sharing single digit segments, so it can be even further back.

I think it's recent because this part of Calabria was the least greek of all Calabrias (on paper), barely any colonies, only in the Ionian Sea, and no comparison with Reggium, Locri and other cities from southern Calabria.

But maybe it's even more ancient, what it's very interesting is that new clusters can bee distinguished :

1. Lucania/Apulia/Cosenza, with very high Greek and Balkan, lower MENA and Italic input in the case of Cosenza close to this I will put Syracuse/Trapani/Ragusa with low MENA
2.Naples/Parts of Sicily like Palermo, some of results Enna
3. Extremely Levant-Shifted over 26/27% MENA : Messina/Malta/Catanzaro/Reggio/Caltanisseta/Catania, the most extreme being Messina with 42% MENA.

Note that there is an Ennese that scored 2.5% Peninsular Arab.

If you plot on a map you get very high genetic distances I think, the Messina result plot with Cyprus I think, for sure.

[Samnium]

It seems that Sikeliot's ideas about Middle Eastern admixture on some South Italians were true. Having 40% Middle Eastern on 23andme is a lot. The question is if that admixture is ''native'' or acquired recently. It seems there was a lot of Middle Eastern blood running through ancient Italy.

Just for comparison, I'm mostly Tyrolean + Friulian + Venetian with some Portuguese and South Italian. I score 0% Middle Eastern. MyHeritage gave me 12% but I think it's bullshit since my parents got none (and I'm also mostly Balkanic there lol).

Not really "Middle Eastern" it's more about Anatolian blood, sure there is some Near East but restricted in comparison of Anatolian one.

It's appalling because "recent", these results (the first cluster) might plotting with Central Greeks that are "100% greeks" on 23andme, so they have definitely less East Med that the "bullshit" average "South-Italian" on some calculators (and are a lot more closer to central italians). The greek and balkan thing will shift the whole to the north, and also we don't know how much genuine italic DNA these results have (especially for Cosenza).

[Samnium]

is there any historical explanation for this 40% ??

The southern tip of Calabria and the North-East of Sicily had arabs that settled here. Reggio was litteraly a colony and inter-mixing occurred (I'm not lying in order to make S.Calabrians africans, it's pure history), lot of jewish conversions, waves of western asians monks and families that fled Western Asia to Calabria. Messina was repopulated by Reggio inhabitants after earthquakes that destroy pretty much everything.

That are the main reasons why. These regions also seem to have very little greek/italic/norman impact.

[Enr1989]

In Anthrogenica Sikeliot has sent some southern italian results. As I've said Cosenza has 10/12% less MENA than Reggio Calabria and Catanzaro, and has a lot more greek and balkan. One person has 18% greek and balkan ! That's huge. It's very close to apulian result. Some have even recent ancestors from Ionian islands !

https://i.imgur.com/H51lUin.png

Reggio :
https://i.imgur.com/eVXHupt.png

Messina instead has 40% MENA.
https://i.imgur.com/U5mf4sg.png

My guess about Cosenza was correct.






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I think he cherrypicked a lot , most of result don't get over 15% of MENA, at least this was before the last update

[Samnium]

I think he cherrypicked a lot , most of result don't get over 15% of MENA, at least this was before the last update

This is the last update, I think that the MENA can be even lowered, see how results change at every update, but surely the 41% MENA wont get to 10%, it indicates a strong anatolian influence.

I don't think that he cherrypicked, it's important to remind that these are a dozen of results for a part of a country that count nearly 20 millions of people (I don't know the precise number).

Anyway cosentians result are very interesting.

[Nassbean]

The southern tip of Calabria and the North-East of Sicily had arabs that settled here. Reggio was litteraly a colony and inter-mixing occurred (I'm not lying in order to make S.Calabrians africans, it's pure history), lot of jewish conversions, possibly waves of western asians monks and families that fled Western Asian to Calabria. Messina was repopulated by Reggio inhabitants after earthquakes that destroy pretty much everything.

That are the main reasons why. These regions also seem to have very little greek/italic/norman impact.

Thanks but it doesn't make sense these "arabs" were in fact north africans coming from tunisia only a minority among them were arabs/levantines

[Adamastor]

Thanks but it doesn't make sense these "arabs" were in fact north africans coming from tunisia only a minority among them were arabs/levantines

Yeah, and that's why I think this whole thing means a kind of genetic profile native to the region instead of just recent admixture. Romans themselves plotted south of modern South Italians.

[Samnium]

Thanks but it doesn't make sense these "arabs" were in fact north africans coming from tunisia only a minority among them were arabs/levantines

Certainly, and I think that NA DNA is hidden in the "Broadly Western Asian and North African". Arabs was not the best word probably yep.

[Samnium]

I Brettii: storia e archeologia della Calabria preromana by Pier Giovanni Guzzo

He said clearly that all Calabria was settled by Bruzi but their main and former territory was Cosenza. In fact they built a lot of small urbans "nucleus" with around them farms, with oppidum in between them, and also fortified nucleus where decisions were taken. This allowed a great demographic growth, Bruzi (or Brettii in Greek) were not a only a small portion of an elite but also a population.

That's explain these results and I think there is a lot of genuine Italic DNA inside the "Italian category" we haven't seen those gedmatch by the way.

[Token]

Yeah, and that's why I think this whole thing means a kind of genetic profile native to the region instead of just recent admixture. Romans themselves plotted south of modern South Italians.

Both Romans and modern South Italians will be shown to be overwhelmingly descended from ancient Greeks in several papers coming out next year. Pre Magna Graecia South and Central Italians will look like North Italians.

All of the populations cited above are mostly of Bronze Age Anatolian extraction, which can be pretty easily confused by Levantine admixture due to CHG richness.