What was autosomal of I2a-din haplogroup?

[Moje ime]

Before contact with R1a and before coming to Balkan? Are there samples?

[Jana]

Well, original autosomal of all I2 people was 100% WHG. Later I2 people mixed with neolithic farmers, and finally with steppe invaders.

[Moje ime]

Well, original autosomal of all I2 people was 100% WHG.

What about certain spots in time like before contact with R1a and before coming to Balkan (I think the second could be more possible to know)?

[ixulescu]

Well, original autosomal of all I2 people was 100% WHG. Later I2 people mixed with neolithic farmers, and finally with steppe invaders.

I'm not sure I2 was as proto-euro as I1.

[Jana]

My guess:


What about certain spots in time like before contact with R1a
Heavily mixed with Sardinian-like genome


and before coming to Balkan (I think the second could be more possible to know)?
NE European

[Jana]

I'm not sure I2 was as proto-euro as I1.

What are you talking about ? Not a single WHG was I1, all of them were I2 including in Scandinavia and some very minor C.
I1 is irrelevant haplogroup when it comes to Old Europe.

[dududud]

Well, original autosomal of all I2 people was 100% WHG. Later I2 people mixed with neolithic farmers, and finally with steppe invaders.

This.

[Cumansky]

Before contact with R1a and before coming to Balkan? Are there samples?

I2 split long time ago from J in Anatolia/Levant

[ixulescu]

What are you talking about ? Not a single WHG was I1, all of them were I2 including in Scandinavia and some very minor C.
I1 is irrelevant haplogroup when it comes to Old Europe.

WHG was/is super thin in Southern Europe, and so it is very unlikely that I1 had less WHG than I2 - I hope you're not again constructing a theory out of a handful of samples that reached us.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/da/ff/03/daff034658206a16f4d44a7f253cfc38.png

[Dick]

I'm not sure I2 was as proto-euro as I1.

I1 mutated to its basal snp(DF29) around the same time the indo-European invasions happened

[vbnetkhio]

What about certain spots in time like before contact with R1a and before coming to Balkan (I think the second could be more possible to know)?

before coming to Balkans, like some group of modern east or west Slavs
before contact with r1a, some mix of WHG, EHG and ENF

[ixulescu]

I1 mutated to its basal snp(DF29) around the same time the indo-European invasions happened

and so?

[Dick]

and so?

So you’re wrong. You can check all ancient samples found so far in this thread from anthrogenica

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13783-Ancient-I-M253-samples-list

[ixulescu]

So you’re wrong. You can check all ancient samples found so far in this thread from anthrogenica

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13783-Ancient-I-M253-samples-list

We have only a handful of ancient samples, we can't build a valid theory on that.

We know that WHG is far more present in the North. We just have to be patient and we'll find the I1 WHG samples. I1 is the oldest european branch, how can it not have the most WHG?

[Dick]

We have only a handful of ancient samples, we can't build a valid theory on that.

We know that WHG is far more present in the North. We just have to be patient and we'll find the I1 WHG samples. I1 is the oldest european branch, how can it not have the most WHG?
There are more than a handful of samples there

[ixulescu]

There are more than a handful of samples there

we have nothing

[Dick]

we have nothing

We have a lot.

[Jana]

WHG was/is super thin in Southern Europe, and so it is very unlikely that I1 had less WHG than I2 - I hope you're not again constructing a theory out of a handful of samples that reached us.

No, even in Sicily lived pure WHGs. There was no I1 found in them, only lot of I2. What is not clear to you, again ?

[ixulescu]

No, even in Sicily lived pure WHGs. There was no I1 found in them, only lot of I2. What is not clear to you, again ?

look at that fucking map.

[ixulescu]

We have a lot.

no.

nothing to build a theory on.

[vbnetkhio]

I1 mutated to its basal snp(DF29) around the same time the indo-European invasions happened

i1 - formed 27500 ybp, TMRCA 4600 ybp
this means at one point i1 fell down to only one man, and he then repopulated the "i1 tribe" 4600 years ago
and that was maybe the birth of proto Germanics

[Jana]

look at that fucking map.

It's map of modern Europe. In time of WHG all of Europe was autosomally homogenous. But neolithic invasion impacted southern Europe far more.
What is the point you are trying to make ?

[Dick]

D
no.

nothing to build a theory on.

Your theory, yes. Nothing to build it on

[Dick]

i1 - formed 27500 ybp, TMRCA 4600 ybp
this means at one point i1 fell down to only one man, and he then repopulated the "i1 tribe" 4600 years ago
and that was maybe the birth of proto Germanics

Lol no

[ixulescu]

D

Your theory, yes. Nothing to build it on

I have no theory. But I see plenty of people peddling bullshit on the basis of a few samples, esp concerning I haplogroup, in all branches.

[Jana]

I have no theory. But I see plenty of people peddling bullshit on the basis of a few samples, esp concerning I haplogroup, in all branches.

We only see you spreading bullshit with no samples because you're butthurt I2-din came to Romanians from Slavs.

[ixulescu]

We only see you spreading bullshit with no samples because you're butthurt I2-din came to Romanians from Slavs.

that's the silliest discussion ever

[Moje ime]

My guess:


Heavily mixed with Sardinian-like genome


NE European



before coming to Balkans, like some group of modern east or west Slavs
before contact with r1a, some mix of WHG, EHG and ENF

I think it must've always been more southern shifted compared to R1a even after "mixing" with them.

[vbnetkhio]

Lol no

what do you disagree with

[Jana]

I think it must've always been more southern shifted compared to R1a even after "mixing" with them.

Original autosomal of R1a is EHG, which is ANE + WHG. So EHG is mixed, not WHG.
''Southern shift'' is foreign admixture into I2 carriers, from mixing with G2 farmers.

[Moje ime]

Original autosomal of R1a is EHG, which is ANE + WHG. So EHG is mixed, not WHG.
''Southern shift'' is foreign admixture into I2 carriers, from mixing with G2 farmers.

I'm talking about that "Sardinian-like genome" you mentioned, which I2 carried and R1a obviously no.

I don't think it could be lost completely in I2 even after mixing with R1a (and creation of I2a-din branch), so compared to R1a, I think I2a-din was always more southern shifted (even before coming to Balkan).

[Jana]

I'm talking about that "Sardinian-like genome" you mentioned, which I2 carried and R1a obviously no.

I don't think it could be lost completely in I2 even after mixing with R1a (and creation of I2a-din branch), so compared to R1a, I think I2a-din was always more southern shifted (even before coming to Balkan).

Yes, that makes sense. I2 men heavily mixed with neolithics and switched to farming.
Sardinians are good example of that.

[vbnetkhio]

I'm talking about that "Sardinian-like genome" you mentioned, which I2 carried and R1a obviously no.

I don't think it could be lost completely in I2 even after mixing with R1a (and creation of I2a-din branch), so compared to R1a, I think I2a-din was always more southern shifted (even before coming to Balkan).

it depends, were the i2 people a separate class in the proto-slavic society or were they completely integrated. if they were intgrated than their genetics was quickly lost, in a couple of generations.

[Dick]

what do you disagree with

There appears to be an I1-L258 sample in the upcoming paper:

Mittnik A., et al., Kinship-based social inequality in Bronze Age Europe

60-OBKR_117_d I-L258 I-L258 I1a1b3a1

https://edmond.mpdl.mpg.de/imeji/col...FcMTgRKNqe4Nzm


https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L258/

As you can see there’s nothing Germanic( or meta ethnically indo-European)about it

[Moje ime]

So what I'm trying to say is - isn't I2a-din already carried some of "southern shift" "Sardinian like" autosomal when coming to Balkan?
It's still unclear from where that southern genetic part in modern South Slavs comes from? Was native population that big to be completely from it? I think no.
This could be explanation.

[Moje ime]

it depends, were the i2 people a separate class in the proto-slavic society or were they completely integrated. if they were intgrated than their genetics was quickly lost, in a couple of generations.

I can't believe it can happen that quickly.

[vbnetkhio]

I can't believe it can happen that quickly.

is there any difference between the average autosomal of e-v13 Serbs and i2a and r1a Serbs?

[vbnetkhio]

There appears to be an I1-L258 sample in the upcoming paper:

Mittnik A., et al., Kinship-based social inequality in Bronze Age Europe

60-OBKR_117_d I-L258 I-L258 I1a1b3a1

https://edmond.mpdl.mpg.de/imeji/col...FcMTgRKNqe4Nzm


https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-L258/

As you can see there’s nothing Germanic( or meta ethnically indo-European)about it
of course, it has TMRCA 1800 ybp. so the first carrier of that mutation was probably born in Finland around 200 ad. but he came to Finland from somewhere.

[ph2ter]

So what I'm trying to say is - isn't I2a-din already carried some of "southern shift" "Sardinian like" autosomal when coming to Balkan?
It's still unclear from where that southern genetic part in modern South Slavs comes from? Was native population that big to be completely from it? I think no.
This could be explanation.

In time of Slavic migration I2a was indistinguishable from R1a autosomally. Difference between them was visible in 3rd millenium BC, when R1a was Steppe-EHG mix and I2a was EEF-WHG mix.
Before mixing with R1a, it was autosomally Central and West European. Sister branch of I2a-Din (Disles and Isles) lives now in Ireland, Great Britain and Germany.

[Dick]

of course, it has TMRCA 1800 ybp. so the first carrier of that mutation was probably born in Finland around 200 ad. but he came to Finland from somewhere.

No. If the sample is positive from the Bronze Age then the tmrca will change

[Moje ime]

In time of Slavic migration I2a was indistinguishable from R1a autosomally.

How can we know this for sure? Are there samples?

[Ülev]

we can't ask Rethel (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?203864-Euroaboriginals-squarely-faced-cronegroaustraloids-C1-and-I-how-they-could-look) anymore

[ph2ter]

How can we know this for sure? Are there samples?

We know from TMRCA times that I2a was rapidly expanding together with R1a in the first half of 1st millennium CE deep behind northeast frontiers of Roman empire.

[Moje ime]

We know from TMRCA times that I2a was rapidly expanding together with R1a in the first half of 1st millennium CE deep behind northeast frontiers of Roman empire.

And those samples are autosomaly the same?

[ph2ter]

And those samples are autosomaly the same?

It is enough only several generations if they are mixing and we are pretty sure that they have been mixing.

[Moje ime]

It is enough only several generations if they are mixing and we are pretty sure that they have been mixing.

Still not all of them could be mixed in the same percent, the example that it doesn't happen could be south America.

[ph2ter]

Still not all of them could be mixed in the same percent, the example that it doesn't happen could be south America.

Probably some branches of I2a-Din which chose southeast path to Balkan (around Carpathians) have been more southern genetically than those who came through the Moravian Gate.

[Moje ime]

Probably some branches of I2a-Din which chose southeast path to Balkan (around Carpathians) have been more southern genetically than those who came through the Moravian Gate.

This is something. :thumb001: My theory makes sense.

[Jana]

Probably some branches of I2a-Din which chose southeast path to Balkan (around Carpathians) have been more southern genetically than those who came through the Moravian Gate.

Dinaric South (PH908) looks to be one of them. Your branch most likely trough Moravian Gate. What do you think ?

[ph2ter]

Dinaric South (PH908) looks to be one of them. Your branch most likely trough Moravian Gate. What do you think ?

Yes, I agree, PH908 and Z17855 around Carpathians. But some branches of PH908 went west towards Germany.
Y4885 and Y5596 through Moravian Gate. Others in majority stayed north like Y4460.

[vbnetkhio]

No. If the sample is positive from the Bronze Age then the tmrca will change

you are right.. bronze age in finland lasted from 1500 bc do 500 bc.. so it could move up to 1700 years back
but I-L258 still came to Finland, probably from Sweden

[Moje ime]

is there any difference between the average autosomal of e-v13 Serbs and i2a and r1a Serbs?

There is no difference since they all became Serbs.

But there is argument against complete autosomal mixing of I2a and R1a in proto Slavic society - if they were so mixed as you claim, today there would be the same percent of both in all north and south Slavs but there is clear distinction, R1a north I2a din south.

[Jana]

There is no difference since they all became Serbs.

But there is argument against complete autosomal mixing of I2a and R1a in proto Slavic society - if they were so mixed as you claim, today there would be the same percent of both in all north and south Slavs but there is clear distinction, R1a north I2a din south.

Greeks, Bulgarians, Macedonians and Romanians are mainly Dinaric North. This label south/north is kinda off though.

[Jana]

Others in majority stayed north like Y4460.

Some made it to the Adriatic Islands :P

[Moje ime]

Greeks, Bulgarians, Macedonians and Romanians are mainly Dinaric North. This label south/north is kinda off though.

Seems like you don't follow at all. I'm talking about R1a and I2a -din haplogroups and why there is more percents of R1a in north Slavs and more percent of I2a-din in south Slavs.

My theory is that it is because those groups of two haplogroups were (maybe by clans) and autosomaly separated in proto Slavic society before coming to Balkan. I2a were ones who primary were coming to Balkans.

I'm waiting for a good argument against this. Still nothing.

[vbnetkhio]

Seems like you don't follow at all. I'm talking about R1a and I2a -din haplogroups and why there is more percents of R1a in north Slavs and more percent of I2a-din in south Slavs.

My theory is that it is because those groups of two haplogroups were (maybe by clans) and autosomaly separated in proto Slavic society before coming to Balkan. I2a were ones who primary were coming to Balkans.

I'm waiting for a good argument against this. Still nothing.

i agree with this. but were these clans autosomally different if they married wives from their neghbouring clans all the time?

[Jana]

Seems like you don't follow at all. I'm talking about R1a and I2a -din haplogroups and why there is more percents of R1a in north Slavs and more percent of I2a-din in south Slavs.

My theory is that it is because those groups of two haplogroups were (maybe by clans) and autosomaly separated in proto Slavic society before coming to Balkan. I2a were ones who primary were coming to Balkans.

I'm waiting for a good argument against this. Still nothing.

Modern distribution says absolutely nothing about medieval times. Also not all South Slavs are strongly I2-din. Slovenes and NW Croats are R1a strong, Bulgarians, Macedonians and Montenegrins E-V13 strong.

It is possible in medieval R1a was dominant. I2-din is strongest in pastoral regions which had much more children compared to serfs from lowlands.

[Moje ime]

i agree with this. but were these clans autosomally different if they married wives from their neghbouring clans all the time?

Maybe they were not.

What about my question about southern admixture in south Slavs? Is it possible that all that (around 50%) is from only 15% of E-v13 haplogroup (at least in Serbs)?

Mytrueancestry shows Latvia as first mtDNA haplogroup match for Serbia so theory about south admixture from female lines is thin.

[Jana]

Maybe they were not.

What about my question about southern admixture in south Slavs? Is it possible that all that (around 50%) is from only 15% of E-v13 haplogroup (at least in Serbs)?

Mytrueancestry shows Latvia as first mtDNA haplogroup match for Serbia so theory about south admixture from female lines is thin.

J and G haplogroups are also southern. As well as some types of I and R haplogroups.

[Moje ime]

It is possible in medieval R1a was dominant. I2-din is strongest in pastoral regions which had much more children compared to serfs from lowlands.
Maybe.

But why I2-din seems like preferred to live in mountains while R1a chooses lowlands mostly?
One more argument that they had different mindset and were separated in some way.

[Moje ime]

J and G haplogroups are also southern. As well as some types of I and R haplogroups.

Yes but that is small percent.

I think there is no more than 25% of southern haplogroups in Serbs.

[Jana]

Also, lot of South Slavic mtdna is native Balkan. Individual examples are irrelevant. Croatian mtdna distribution is more similar to other southern Europeans than to northern and eastern ones.

[Moje ime]

Also, lot of South Slavic mtdna is native Balkan. Individual examples are irrelevant. Croatian mtdna distribution is more similar to other southern Europeans than to northern and eastern ones.

https://i.imgur.com/BkueJXF.png

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?285335-My-true-ancestry-com&p=6246652&viewfull=1#post6246652

[Jana]

Yes but that is small percent.

Not really. I don't trust Serbian statistics that much. Since it started percentage of native Balkan haplogroups has been decreasing and of ''northern'' haplogroups increasing.
R1b-L23 is native Balkan for example, as is I2a2. Etc

We have also read some Serbs with non-Slavic haplogroups took their results off the project. In your country everything is politicized.
People with haplogroups tought to be ''Albanian like'' are much less likely to share their results.

In Bosniaks situation is exactly the opposite.

[Jana]

Also, haplogroups like I1 were probably autosomally southern by the time they assimilated into South Slavs. Goths arrived to Balkans before them and had lot of time to mix with native populations.
Hence why some clans tought to be Latin speaking in the past are I1.

I am not believer of I1 arrival with Slavs in any significant amount.

[vbnetkhio]

Maybe they were not.

What about my question about southern admixture in south Slavs? Is it possible that all that (around 50%) is from only 15% of E-v13 haplogroup (at least in Serbs)?

Mytrueancestry shows Latvia as first mtDNA haplogroup match for Serbia so theory about south admixture from female lines is thin.

mytrueancestry is not reliable.. i'm a mix of greco-bactrians and scythians according to them.

and what is southern admixture even? some South Slavs have more Atlantic and West Med admixture, some have more East med, West Asian.. preSlavic Balkanians were also more western than Slavs(Sardinian and Basque like), not just more southern

[21993]

Before contact with R1a and before coming to Balkan? Are there samples?

I guess they were Southern Cro-Magnon.

[Moje ime]

Not really. I don't trust Serbian statistics that much. Since it started percentage of native Balkan haplogroups has been decreasing and of ''northern'' haplogroups increasing.
R1b-L23 is native Balkan for example, as is I2a2. Etc

We have also read some Serbs with non-Slavic haplogroups took their results off the project. In your country everything is politicized.
People with haplogroups tought to be ''Albanian like'' are much less likely to share their results.

In Bosniaks situation is exactly the opposite.

I don't want this thread to be about politics but if we speak about that... I don't know anything about politization of dna results in Serbia. I just wonder why would they hide paleo Balkan haplogroups when it would just go in Albanian's favor to continue with "go back to Russia" attacks?

[vbnetkhio]

Maybe.

But why I2-din seems like preferred to live in mountains while R1a chooses lowlands mostly?
One more argument that they had different mindset and were separated in some way.

in neolithic times i2a people lived sedentary and r1a were nomadic shepherds.
i think South Slavs were dominant i2a from the start

[Moje ime]

preSlavic Balkanians were also more western than Slavs(Sardinian and Basque like), not just more southern

True.

[Moje ime]

in neolithic times i2a people lived sedentary and r1a were nomadic shepherds.

Isn't that opposite?

[vbnetkhio]

Not really. I don't trust Serbian statistics that much. Since it started percentage of native Balkan haplogroups has been decreasing and of ''northern'' haplogroups increasing.
R1b-L23 is native Balkan for example, as is I2a2. Etc

We have also read some Serbs with non-Slavic haplogroups took their results off the project. In your country everything is politicized.
People with haplogroups tought to be ''Albanian like'' are much less likely to share their results.

In Bosniaks situation is exactly the opposite.

serbian dna project's table is not meant for statistics, because it includes dozens of related people with the same haplogroup and there is no filtering. it's just for genealogy.

there are scientific papers with good statistics.

[Moje ime]

mytrueancestry is not reliable..

Actually here Mytryeancesty goes in favor of your theory about I2a din mixing with R1a over female lines.

Question is only was that mixing enough for completely change I2a's more south western autosomal compared with R1a.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?302041-What-was-autosomal-of-I2a-din-haplogroup/page6&p=6256798#post6256798

https://i.imgur.com/BkueJXF.png

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?285335-My-true-ancestry-com&p=6246652&viewfull=1#post6246652

[vbnetkhio]

Isn't that opposite?

yes, opposite than this association that a lot of people have, that i2a are highlanders and r1a lowlanders etc.

[Jana]

I don't want this thread to be about politics but if we speak about that... I don't know anything about politization of dna results in Serbia. I just wonder why would they hide paleo Balkan haplogroups when it would just go in Albanian's favor to continue with "go back to Russia" attacks?

Look at that Kosovo Serb member, he didn't want to put E-V13 in his profile for a long time.
Most people are very clueless. You can be E or J and look wise and autosomally lot more Slavic than R1a or I2-din.

Haplogroups are largerly irrelevant. We all have ancestors who belonged to all these haplogroups found in our nations.

[Nurzat]

Well, original autosomal of all I2 people was 100% WHG. Later I2 people mixed with neolithic farmers, and finally with steppe invaders.

dearie, you need to tell us how to pronounce your username and its meaning

[Jana]

yes, opposite than this association that a lot of people have, that i2a are highlanders and r1a lowlanders etc.

Mountanious Slovenia is very strongly R1a, flat Slavonia is I2-din but we need to take in account most of Slavonian population is not autochtonous there.

[Jana]

dearie, you need to tell us how to pronounce your username and its meaning

Okay :)

Fee-iii-chi

It's my real life nickname since I remember, based on my first name which is long and very formal sounding.

[Nurzat]

Okay :)

Fee-iii-chi

It's my real life nickname since I remember, based on my first name which is long and very formal.

fe-ji-či?

which syllable falls the accent on?

[Jana]

fe-ji-či?

which syllable falls the accent on?

Yes !

Accent is on long e and či, I would say

F-eee-i-cchiii

:D

[vbnetkhio]

Actually here Mytryeancesty goes in favor of your theory about I2a din mixing with R1a over female lines.

Question is only was that mixing enough for completely change I2a's more south western autosomal compared with R1a.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?302041-What-was-autosomal-of-I2a-din-haplogroup/page6&p=6256798#post6256798

https://i.imgur.com/BkueJXF.png

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?285335-My-true-ancestry-com&p=6246652&viewfull=1#post6246652

but Serbs are not the same people as the "i2a clan"
and the "r1a clans" took wives from the "i2a clan" too, so they got more southern and they evened out after a few generations.

another posibility is that i2a-din was a very small haplogroup, even in pre indo european times
and then there was one very succesful king who founded his clan, and he was accidentally this haplogroup. but he was autosomally the same as any other Proto-Slav, no matter the haplogroup.

something like this
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33419-Was-I2a-CTS10228-(dinaric)-an-ancient-Slavic-king

that probably happened with i1 haplogroup too

[vbnetkhio]

dearie, you need to tell us how to pronounce your username and its meaning

i pronounce it like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNVpV-pciL8

[Nurzat]

i pronounce it like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNVpV-pciL8

nope:

https://vocaroo.com/i/s098iL622gDm

[Moje ime]

nope:



There is million spam threads and you come to mine to make offtopic.

[vbnetkhio]

Before contact with R1a and before coming to Balkan? Are there samples?

how about this?
some Bunjevci have 1-2% south asian admixture in k15. also some dinaric Serbs
south asian is a part steppe component in eurogenes. Tatars also get it. some Scythians probably had it too
so perhaps they were a Scythian admixed Slavic tribe? or absorbed Scythian tribe absorbed into Slavs very early?

[Moje ime]

how about this?
some Bunjevci have 1-2% south asian admixture in k15. also some dinaric Serbs
south asian is a part steppe component in eurogenes. Tatars also get it. some Scythians probably had it too
so perhaps they were a Scythian admixed Slavic tribe? or absorbed Scythian tribe absorbed into Slavs very early?

How I2 could be steppe admixed before contact with R1a?

[Not a Cop]

Most likely I2 came to Slavs after the Balto-Slavic split and was carried by some western european, probably a germanic. After that him and his children got extremly lucky in procreating and made up a huge portion of slavs.

[vbnetkhio]

How I2 could be steppe admixed before contact with R1a?

by coming into contact and mixing with Scythian/Sarmatian r1b-z2103 and r1a-z93 before they did with Slavic r1a-m458 and r1a-z280

[Pribislav]

Not really. I don't trust Serbian statistics that much. Since it started percentage of native Balkan haplogroups has been decreasing and of ''northern'' haplogroups increasing.
R1b-L23 is native Balkan for example, as is I2a2. Etc

We have also read some Serbs with non-Slavic haplogroups took their results off the project. In your country everything is politicized.
People with haplogroups tought to be ''Albanian like'' are much less likely to share their results.

In Bosniaks situation is exactly the opposite.

This is bullshit.
Paleo-Balkanic haplos are forcing by some moderators of SDP, because they belong to them.Statistics for Serbs from SDP has little less Slavic and more Balkanic than in reality.

[Dick]

Most likely I2 came to Slavs after the Balto-Slavic split and was carried by some western european, probably a germanic. After that him and his children got extremly lucky in procreating and made up a huge portion of slavs.

According to rasul allah Bosniensis(pbuh) it was from some Gaulish tribe that also gave their name to the Galicia region in eastern Europe


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/Location_Galicia_in_Europe.svg/1024px-Location_Galicia_in_Europe.svg.png

[vbnetkhio]

How I2 could be steppe admixed before contact with R1a?

some scythians had haplogroup j2, but they were autosomally of course the same as the scythians with r1a or r1b.
maybe we find some i2-din scythians just like that.

[ph2ter]

some scythians had haplogroup j2, but they were autosomally of course the same as the scythians with r1a or r1b.
maybe we find some i2-din scythians just like that.

I doubt. I2a-Din has Western and Central European origin.
Only I2a in Steppe was I2a2, not I2a1.

[vbnetkhio]

I doubt. I2a-Din has Western and Central European origin.
Only I2a in Steppe was I2a2, not I2a1.

what are the earliest i2a1-din samples found so far? medieval Russian, Polish and Hungarian, all from 10th-12th century, right?

[ph2ter]

what are the earliest i2a1-din samples found so far? medieval Russian, Polish and Hungarian, all from 10th-12th century, right?

Yes, but from current distribution of I2a1-Din and its sister clades we know that its source is somewhere in today Germany.
Disles and Isles, which are sister clades of I2a1-Din, are located in Great Britain and Ireland and sporadically in Germany, France and Poland.
Disles came to Great Britain and Ireland probably together with Bell Beakers in 2000-2500 BC, and Isles was there already in Late Neolithic.
I2a1-M423 in ancient record was never found east of Carpathians.

[vbnetkhio]

Yes, but from current distribution of I2a1-Din and its sister clades we know that its source is somewhere in today Germany.
Disles and Isles, which are sister clades of I2a1-Din, are located in Great Britain and Ireland and sporadically in Germany, France and Poland.
Disles came to Great Britain and Ireland probably together with Bell Beakers in 2000-2500 BC, and Isles was there already in Late Neolithic.
I2a1-M423 in ancient record was never found east of Carpathians.

so the answer to OP question is probably some kind of west-central European? maybe similar to those Lech valley samples?

[vbnetkhio]

Yes, but from current distribution of I2a1-Din and its sister clades we know that its source is somewhere in today Germany.
Disles and Isles, which are sister clades of I2a1-Din, are located in Great Britain and Ireland and sporadically in Germany, France and Poland.
Disles came to Great Britain and Ireland probably together with Bell Beakers in 2000-2500 BC, and Isles was there already in Late Neolithic.
I2a1-M423 in ancient record was never found east of Carpathians.

is the av2 Avar the purest early slav we have? av1 seems like av2 mixed with the local romans.
av2 could be 65% Baltic +35 Celtic or Germanic. KAZ_Golden_Horde_Euro was Baltic and HRV_Early_IA wasn't too far from some alpine Celts

[,1] [,2]
[1,] "HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2" "0"
[2,] "26.4 % Baltic_EST_BA + 73.6 % HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1" "0.0212"
[3,] "26.5 % Baltic_LVA_BA + 73.5 % HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1" "0.0219"
[4,] "38.6 % Baltic_EST_MA + 61.4 % HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1" "0.0223"
[5,] "36.4 % Baltic_EST_IA + 63.6 % HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1" "0.0225"
[6,] "67.4 % HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 32.6 % RUS_Ingria_IA" "0.0227"
[7,] "51.8 % HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 48.2 % KAZ_Golden_Horde_Euro" "0.0236"
[8,] "64.7 % Baltic_EST_BA + 35.3 % HRV_Early_IA" "0.0237"
[9,] "33.3 % Baltic_LTU_BA + 66.7 % HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1" "0.0238"
[10,] "61.6 % RUS_Ingria_IA + 38.4 % UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky" "0.0246"
[11,] "65.4 % Baltic_LVA_BA + 34.6 % HRV_Early_IA" "0.025"
[12,] "70.7 % KAZ_Golden_Horde_Euro + 29.3 % SWE_IA" "0.025"
[13,] "72.6 % KAZ_Golden_Horde_Euro + 27.4 % Nordic_BA" "0.0253"
[14,] "65.7 % KAZ_Golden_Horde_Euro + 34.3 % SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna" "0.0253"
[15,] "36.3 % Bell_Beaker_CZE_o + 63.7 % KAZ_Golden_Horde_Euro" "0.0255"
[16,] "32 % Baltic_EST_MA + 68 % RUS_Sunghir_MA" "0.0256"
[17,] "76.5 % KAZ_Golden_Horde_Euro + 23.5 % Scotland_LBA" "0.0256"
[18,] "35.1 % Baltic_LVA_BA + 64.9 % CZE_Early_Slav" "0.0258"
[19,] "24.8 % Bell_Beaker_Scotland + 75.2 % KAZ_Golden_Horde_Euro" "0.0258"
[20,] "23.2 % DEU_BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN + 76.8 % KAZ_Golden_Horde_Euro" "0.0258"

etc.

[Pribislav]

Serb from Banija, his y dna is I2a1b.

K13
1 Baltic 31.06
2 North_Atlantic 30.13
3 West_Med 19.39
4 East_Med 9.38
5 West_Asian 8.54
6 Siberian 0.75
7 Red_Sea 0.4
8 Oceanian 0.35

K15
1 North_Sea 21.32
2 Baltic 18.39
3 Atlantic 17.92
4 Eastern_Euro 13.23
5 West_Med 13.06
6 East_Med 10.61
7 West_Asian 5.19
8 Red_Sea 0.28

[Pribislav]

Serb from Banija, his y dna is I2a1b.

K13
1 Baltic 31.06
2 North_Atlantic 30.13
3 West_Med 19.39
4 East_Med 9.38
5 West_Asian 8.54
6 Siberian 0.75
7 Red_Sea 0.4
8 Oceanian 0.35

K15
1 North_Sea 21.32
2 Baltic 18.39
3 Atlantic 17.92
4 Eastern_Euro 13.23
5 West_Med 13.06
6 East_Med 10.61
7 West_Asian 5.19
8 Red_Sea 0.28

Wrong thread, I confuse this thread with genetic of South Slavs and neighbours! Lool

[vbnetkhio]

Serb from Banija, his y dna is I2a1b.

K13
1 Baltic 31.06
2 North_Atlantic 30.13
3 West_Med 19.39
4 East_Med 9.38
5 West_Asian 8.54
6 Siberian 0.75
7 Red_Sea 0.4
8 Oceanian 0.35

K15
1 North_Sea 21.32
2 Baltic 18.39
3 Atlantic 17.92
4 Eastern_Euro 13.23
5 West_Med 13.06
6 East_Med 10.61
7 West_Asian 5.19
8 Red_Sea 0.28

this one wasn't posted before?

[Pribislav]

this one wasn't posted before?

I am not sure. HungryLion sent me this result today on other forum.

[Pribislav]

I am not sure. HungryLion sent me this result today on other forum.

This guy is Serb with the highest North_Atlantic score from what I have seen.

[ph2ter]

so the answer to OP question is probably some kind of west-central European? maybe similar to those Lech valley samples?

Lech valley samples are too old. I2a-Din did not exist in that time yet.

[vbnetkhio]

speaking of the i2a tribe, on mytrueancestry my closest deep dive match is kievan rus i2a. not av2 which is a more pure proto Slav.
you can view your closest deep dive match in the free version.

[vbnetkhio]

Lech valley samples are too old. I2a-Din did not exist in that time yet.

what culture could've it originated from? Lusatian?

[Dick]

speaking of the i2a tribe, on mytrueancestry my closest deep dive match is kievan rus i2a. not av2 which is a more pure proto Slav.
you can view your closest deep dive match in the free version.

That Kievan Rus sample was some hohol mercenary

[Jana]

That Kievan Rus sample was some hohol mercenary

Rather a medieval Russian before mixing with Finnics.

[Ülev]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?18177-Ukraine-for-Ukrainians


Україна це Европа

Ukraine is Europe


https://youtu.be/1N_iVnfY14E

judging by the rhythms - Balkan Europe

:p

[Dick]

Rather a medieval Russian before mixing with Finnics.

What’s the difference between him and av2 which is more pure proto slav according to what that guy above said

[vbnetkhio]

What’s the difference between him and av2 which is more pure proto slav according to what that guy above said

he scores diferrently in global25. i think he already had some local admixture, but less than any modern Russian

[Dick]

he scores diferrently in global25. i think he already had some local admixture, but less than any modern Russian

Where does he plot?

[vbnetkhio]

Where does he plot?

this is a good fit
"95.4 % HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 4.6 % RUS_Bolshoy_Oleni_Ostrov" "0.0258"

oleni ostrov is a finnic sample i believe
and av1 is like av2+ Pannonian Romans

"66.9 % HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 33.1 % HUN_MA_Szolad" "0.0187"

[ph2ter]

what culture could've it originated from? Lusatian?

I2a-Din appeared in Iron Age. Lusatian culture is a bit too old. Maybe Przeworsk.

[vbnetkhio]

I2a-Din appeared in Iron Age. Lusatian culture is a bit too old. Maybe Przeworsk.

do you think br1 and br2 bronze age Hungarians and scy009 Ukrainian Scythian have any connection with Slavs?