Genetic differentiation in S.Italy : new clusters and evidence from recent admixture from Greece

[Samnium]

Genetic differentiation in S.Italy : new clusters and evidence for recent admixture from Greece

There are a lot of southern italian results that are coming, they are redefining how we see S.Italy genetically speaking.

Apulians and Calabrians results show an elevated % of greek and balkan with a lot of these showing recent ancestors, that's mean there was a recent migration from mainland or Ionian greek islands to mainland southern Italy.

Apulians have shown in the past to have a lot of greek/balkan and for obvious historical and geographical reasons (they are in front of Greece) it was pretty logical.

What is very surprising is Cosenza , Calabria was thought to be uniformly outlying in Levant direction but that's not true. The result that has one of the most Greek and Balkan is an half abruzzese/half cosentian result with 20% of greek/balkan, that would mean that there are cosentians with 30/40% if not more (Abbruzzo don't show a lot of recent greek and balkan admixture) greek/balkan DNA !

Calabrian and apulian results

Apulians :

4/4 Apulian
Italian 55%
Greek and Balkan 6.8%
Spanish and Portuguese 0.9%
Broadly Southern European !5.4%
Scandinavian 0.5%
Broadly Northwestern European 0.9%
Eastern European 0.6%
Broadly European 1.7%
Anatolian 4.6%
Cypriot 4.2%
Broadly Northern West Asian 2.9%
Levantine 0.3%
Broadly Arab, Egyptian & Levantine 0.9%
Broadly Western Asian & North African 4.3%
Unassigned 1%

4/4 Apulian
Italian 49.3%
Greek & Balkan 10.3%
Spanish & Portuguese 2.8%
Broadly Southern European 11.1%
French & German 4.8%
Broadly Northwestern European 0.4%
Eastern European 1.0%
Ashkenazi Jewish 0.1%
Broadly European 1.0%
Anatolian 3.0%
Cypriot 2.1%
Broadly Northern West Asian 2.9%
Levantine 1.2%
Broadly Arab, Egyptian & Levantine 3.5%
Broadly Western Asian & North African 4.8%
East Asian 0.1%
Cenral and South Asian 0.1%
Sub-Saharan 0.1%
Unassigned 1.5%

4/4 Apulian
Italian54.3%
Greek & Balkan 6.5%
Spanish & Portuguese 0.5%
Sardinian 0.3%
Broadly Southern European 19.3%
Northwestern European 1.0%
French & German 0.9%
Eastern European 0.6%
Broadly European 5.5%
Anatolian 5.5%
Broadly Northern West Asian 3.9%
Broadly Western Asian & North African1.3%
Sub-Saharan 0.1%
Unassigned 1.4%
https://i.imgur.com/F14Amai.png
https://i.imgur.com/FAAO5mV.png

Cosentians :

1/2 Abruzzo 1/2 Cosenza Calabria
Italian 49.2%
Greek & Balkan 20.3%
Spanish & Portuguese 1.7%
Broadly Southern European 10.0%
British & Irish 0.2%
Broadly Northwestern European 0.1%
Broadly European 0.6%
Anatolian 2.5%
Cypriot 2.5%
Broadly Northern West Asian 4.0%
Arab, Egyptian & Levantine 1.0%
Broadly Arab, Egyptian & Levantine 1.0%
North African 0.1%
Broadly Western Asian & North African 6.0%
East Asian 0.1%
Unassigned 1.8%
https://i.imgur.com/H51lUin.png
https://i.imgur.com/erGTOrd.png
https://i.imgur.com/d1ubqvB.png



So basically there is a new Cosentian/Apulian cluster that is appearing. As you noticed Cosentians and Apulians have all (except one cosentian but he may be an outlier) less than 20% MENA, substantial Greek and Balkan admixture and very low (or absent) Levantine admixture. This would cause a northern shift with in the case of Cosenza, a very strong italic impact. Why ? The cosentian result that is low in greek and balkan is also low on MENA, that's mean that in the Italian category there would be a lot of genuine Italic DNA brought by Brettii (Lucanians) and other italic tribes.

Let's now compare with results from other calabrian regions.


4/4 Calabrian (unknow location but likely from Reggio/Vibo/Catanzaro)
Italian 60.0%
Greek & Balkan 0.9%
Spanish & Portuguese 0.6%
Broadly Southern European 7.7%
Broadly European 0.6%
Anatolian 4.2%
Iranian, Caucasian & Mesopotamian 3.9%
Cypriot 0.2%
Broadly Northern West Asian 10.1%
Arab, Egyptian & Levantine 2.7%
Egyptian 1.4%
Broadly Arab, Egyptian & Levantine 1.3%
North African 0.6%
Broadly Western Asian & North African 6.6%
West African 0.1%
Broadly West African 0.1%
Broadly Central & South Asian 0.1%
https://i.imgur.com/eVXHupt.png (Reggio Calabria)
https://i.imgur.com/AfTN5M2.png (Catanzaro)


Possible reasons for Cosentian differentiation

1) Strong ancient Italic/Greek input by Brettii (Lucanians), Oenetri, Greek mainlanders (and Ionian islanders) and some other Italiotes tribes.
2) Autochtonous populations weren't related to western asians or the near east (or were replaced by the demographic growth of Brettii and Greeks), probably sardinian-like (so west-med shifted).
3) 0 impact from byzantine western asians migrations/arab/berbers
4) Very isolated place, 0 internal migration, people have retained these influences.
5) Recent mainland/Ionian greek input

[Samnium]

To illustrate the last point I will show you maps, some historical quotes and genetical studies to argue in favor of these reasons.

[Samnium]

Three genetical regional studies, they are definitely more worth-reading than these studies done by Lazaridis without any regard towards the localisation of the samples.

I will post three studies very interesting about differences in Calabria.

X-chromosome SNP analyses in 11 human Mediterranean populations show a high overall genetic homogeneity except in North-west Africans (Moroccans)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2315647/

"Figure 2a reflects a strong impact of gene flow versus genetic drift in the Mediterranean region (according to Koizumi et al [22]). Nevertheless, it is worth to pay attention to specific populations where other demographic scenarios such as geographic isolation, genetic drift or population admixture have probably played an important role in their current genetic constitution. As we have commented above, relative high genetic distances between neighbouring populations were found between Cosenza and (1) Catanzaro and (2) Reggio di Calabria and between Ibiza and (1) Majorca and (2) Valencia. The results support the hypothesis that the genetic differentiation of the Ibiza and Cosenza populations is a result of their particular demographic histories [15, 16, 23].

[...]

Tagarelli et al [16] described the Calabria province as a collection of many "human genetic isolates". In contrast to Catanzaro and Reggio di Calabria, Cosenza did not suffer destructive telluric events that would have modified its population structure. So, the population heterogeneity inside Cosenza is more patent than in any of the other two populations. This is reflected by the heterogenic distribution of various genetic markers at the coast compared to the internal areas [16]. The results obtained with the 25 X-chromosome markers were in agreement with the previous studies. Cosenza showed not just a relatively high genetic differentiation compared to the populations from Catanzaro and Reggio di Calabria but also a certain displacement in relation to other Mediterranean populations. This was also the case of the Ibiza population.
[...]
Moreover, when a parametric multilocus association analysis was performed, significant values of associations were only observed in the Ibiza and Cosenza populations."

Cosenza suffer from telluric events but the repopulation always involved people from the province not outside (unlike Sicily).

There is some kind of sardinian-like that have been retained I think, that make him closer to Ibiza for X-chromosome.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/490553013124202496/630388717596704780/unknown.png

[Samnium]

The study quoted by the first study :

Color-blindness in Calabria (Southern Italy): A north-south decreasing trend
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11534000

"The three Calabrian provinces, with the exception of the ethnic minorities, show a decreasing trend in the frequency of CB from north to south (Fig. 2): CS, 6.23%; CZ, 4.65%; RC, 3.43%, (x2 4 32.5; P < 0.0005; df 2). The frequencies also differ significantly between CS and CZ (x2 4 9.44; P < 0.005; df 1) and CS and RC (x2 4 28.913; P < 0.0005; df 1); there is a significant difference betweenCZandRCprovinces(x2 4 5.435;P< 0.001; df 1).

[...] Cosenza province also shows some other peculiarities regarding genetic markers.Tagarelli et al. (1991a) showed an opposite trend for glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase (G6PD) deficiency in respect to that of CB. The mean frequency of this deficiency has a maximal value on the Ionian coast (1.92%) and a minimal value on Tyrrhenian coast (0.93%), passing through the internal area (1.67%). This trend may be explained by historical and environmental factors. All other areas with higher G6PD deficiency frequencies are those areas where, during the VIIIth to Vth centuries BC, the Greeks (people who brought the more common G6PD genotype Mediterranean G6PD into Calabria) made their more populous settlements. These areas are also the same where malaria was endemic in the past (Tagarelli et al., 1997), and where another inherited disorder, the thalassemias (Brancati and Tagarelli, 1982), are present. Filosa et al. (1993) showed a linkage disequilibrium between the G6PD deficiency locus with that for CB within a Tyrrhenian sample from Cosenza province. Another trend was demonstrated by Tagarelli et al. (1991b) for the phosphoglucomutase 1 locus (PGM1). There was an increase in the trend from the Ionian coast towards that Tyrrhenian coast for the PGM1*1S allele,and a decrease in the same direction for the PGM1*2S allele. There was no trend for the Gm polymorphism (De Benedictis et al., 1986) as for other Calabrian polymorphisms (Piazza et al., 1989).
[…]
Furthermore, the precarious economic status and the geographical peculiarities of the territory did not allow communication between the three Calabrian provinces until the beginning of this century. Until this period, there was only one road, the state road “S.S.19” which follows the ancient “Via Popilia,” built for military reasons following the occupation by the Romans. Improvement of the roads during the period following World War II allowed better communication between Cosenza, Catanzaro, and Reggio Calabria. But, when the towns along the Tyrrhenian and Ionian coasts improved their communications with other towns, those in the internal region were again isolated. "

[Samnium]

Endogamy and inbreeding since the 17th century in past malarial communities in the Province of Cosenza (Calabria, Southern Italy)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10541408

"The research was carried out in eight `Comuni’ in the Province of Cosenza (Calabria). TheProvince of Cosenza is characterized by an orography which changes rapidly over short distances, creating several isolated micro-areas with different hydro-geologic and climatic conditions. Calabria was colonized between the VIIIth and Vth centuries B.C. by Greek populations who probably introduced the G6PD Med and the b39 thalassemic genes, the most common variants found in the region. Subsequently, other different groups (Romans, Longobards, Byzantines, Normans, Arabs, Spanish and French) occupied the territory and left some genetic influence too. However, most of the mountainous towns originated as a consequence of internal migration from the coastal area during the 15th century, and remained isolated since the1940± 50s, when the road network was first established in Calabria (Lenormant 1976, Tagarelli, Piro and Tagarelli 1997). Their populations can, therefore, be considered genetic isolates.
[…]

Endogamy rates were high in every village (table 4). Torano Castello has the highest endogamic rates: 96% in the second half of the 19th century, and 78% in the present century. The lower rates of endogamy, ranging between 65± 55%, are all found in thepresent century, as aconsequence of thebreakdown of isolation inItaly that occurred in the 1930s. In general, non-malarial villages display higher rates of endogamy than those in the malarial area in the 17th and 18th centuries, with an inverse tendency in the more recent centuries. This may be a result of the more isolated location and the reduced size of the non-malarial villages at the higher altitudes."

Certainly endogamy played a role whereas in Sicily there was possibly a lot of admixing with different provinces.

[Samnium]

Tomorrow I will give you some geographical and historical points.

[dududud]

Interesting.

[Samnium]

Interesting.

On Anthrogenica I talked about that with Sikeliot on pages and pages : https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18490-23andme-quot-East-Med-Continuum-quot-BETA-results-consolidated

Actually I've guessed these results before they come by an historical/geographical and some kind of genetical analysis (with examination of the gedmatch, reading of different genetic papers that I have posted here but not only...) . However I didn't think that there was so many greek admixture in Cosenza, I thought a strong italic input only.

[Maxitor]

On Anthrogenica I talked about that with Sikeliot on pages and pages : https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18490-23andme-quot-East-Med-Continuum-quot-BETA-results-consolidated

Actually I've guessed these results before they come by an historical/geographical and some kind of genetical analysis (with examination of the gedmatch, reading of different genetic papers that I have posted here but not only...) . However I didn't think that there was so many greek admixture in Cosenza, I thought a strong italic input only.

Those are not Average numbers of groups of Locals, but BIAS picked single person samples.

Think about it.

Also don't look just at the differences, include also the similarities.

[Maxitor]

DNA Relatives, same Town, one to one comparison (I could BIASly choose the results of any of them to make a point):

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191007/ff20271a4564f5d1bb9236e2cd3f9ead.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191007/8572c6f55a63143633d504f9c86eba69.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191007/7d990e409e2b959f2db57c938214583b.jpg

[FinalFlash]

Gedmatch and Sikeliot lied to us

[Samnium]

Those are not Average numbers of groups of Locals, but BIAS picked single person samples.

Think about it.

Also don't look just at the differences, include also the similarities.No they are not bias picked, he posted a lot of results, not only those who are northern-shifted.

Envoyé de mon ALE-L21 en utilisant Tapatalk

[Samnium]

Gedmatch and Sikeliot lied to usApprently he has over-estimated the MENA in Italy, and it's true that these results show that elevated MENA is not present in all S.Italy.

Envoyé de mon ALE-L21 en utilisant Tapatalk

[FinalFlash]

Apprently he has over-estimated the MENA in Italy, and it's true that these results show that elevated MENA is not present in all S.Italy.

Envoyé de mon ALE-L21 en utilisant Tapatalk

I'm sorry but this doesn't make sense. What do you mean by "MENA"? Elevated Middle eastern like Levatine/Arabian or North African like Berber? Because you do realize that they're totally different things, right?

[Samnium]

I'm sorry but this doesn't make sense. What do you mean by "MENA"? Elevated Middle eastern like Levatine/Arabian or North African like Berber? Because you do realize that they're totally different things, right?MENA = Levantine, Arab, Northern Western Asian, NA

I know they are not the same thing, indeed mainlanders score predominantly Northern Western Asian BUT there is a broadly section that would possibly have some Arab/Levantine/NA DNA. So that's why I use "MENA" because all these categories are grouped together in a broadly category.

(By the way we are talking about recent input not ancient one)

Envoyé de mon ALE-L21 en utilisant Tapatalk

[Maxitor]

Most, if not all of the Northern West Asian bulk is not recent, it goes back to the late Neolithic, and then overlaps again in the Bronze Age.

It’s highly unlikely that 3/4 quarter of the Country got this input in about the last 10 generations or so, as 23andme claims.

[Maxitor]

Ancient Greeks differ from the Modern Greeks.

In the results of the Southern Italians, if you do not see Slavic or Eastern European at about 4% or more, than the Greek&Balkan It’s not recent, but older or Bronze Age related.

[Samnium]

Ancient Greeks differ from the Modern Greeks.

In the results of the Southern Italians, if you do not see Slavic or Eastern European at about 4% or more, than the Greek&Balkan It’s not recent, but older or Bronze Age related.

23andme is supposed to pinpoint only recent admixture. Actually I think that the Slavic is included in the Greek&Balkan and not separated. (However some showed Ionian islands which have not slavic admixture so that would make sense in your theory that they don't score Eastern Europe).

If not that would mean that these southern italians are overall only "17% MENA" and would make them to plot with central-north italians (I don't think that I think more about Central Italy/parts of Tuscany). It would also mean that the "Italian" section is mostly : "Italic" section also.

In both cases this cluster end up in Central/Central-North Italy, which is very surprising and destroy the idea of a clinal Italy genetically.

[Maxitor]

23andme hasn't refined the ancient genetics admixture of the various Italian populations (updating often).

If 23andme only gives results of recent generations, then we must have missed a recent colossal invasion from West Asia.

That’s why the extra admixture is Ancient.

[Samnium]

Calabria Geography

Calabria is long and not very wide, Southern Calabria has no barriers (Aspromonte is not highest and difficult to pass as Sila) against arab rule and byzantine migrations. So that area have been the most admixed, there was also a lot of jewish conversions.

Southern Catanzaro is connected to Vibo Valentia so this area is similar to Vibo genetically (maybe a little bit less outlying). Northern Catanzaro is similar to Cosenza in my opinion : very mountainous, very few invaders and Italic/Greek that settled here. I don't talk about Crotone because I dont know this part of Calabria, but Crotone is partly connected to Cosenza so definitely similar genetics results I think.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/490553013124202496/630824572341715014/attachment.png

As you see Cosenza is surrounded by mountains, the Tyrrhenean Coast which prevent attacks from Sea and in the other side, la Sila. La Sila highlands can reach 2000m and are covered by forests, so really not really easy to pass though.

A large valley at North allowed Greeks and Lucanians to come (valle del Crati).

There wasn't any modern road until the beginning of the 20th century, mixing between diverse provinces occurred only in recent times. (People marry other people from neighbors villages

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/490553013124202496/630824465323786240/attachment.png

I drawn the plain of Vibo which is connected to Catanzaro and Cosenza province with arrows in the direction of valle del Crati.

https://besidiaeceramica.it/images/2-A_carta_archeologica_valledelCrati.jpg


That's Sila, Pollino in the back and the Tyrrhenian Catena Costiera to the left, see how it's mountainous ? Alpine climate, very high mountains for Southern Italy. Lucanians were really though to get here and install. Same for the greeks.

http://www.lakiniontravel.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/parco-nazionale-della-sila-6.jpg
https://mondointasca.it/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Parco-Sila-inverno-2.jpg
https://previews.agefotostock.com/previewimage/medibigoff/20da88fe0c796cf61ec7be14f6963202/dae-11246316.jpg
Catena Costiera (Tyrrhenian coast) :

http://www.visitcosenza.it/images/cocuzzo/Monti-dell-Orsomarso-Visti-da-Monte-Cocuzzo.jpg
https://arsac.calabria.it/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/m.cocuzzo-14-1200x675.jpg
https://www.coastclick.it/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/3.jpg

[Samnium]

23andme hasn't refined the ancient genetics admixture of the various Italian populations (updating often).

If 23andme only gives results to recent generations, then we must have missed a recent colossal invasion from West Asia.

That’s why the extra admixture is Ancient.

So these results would likely plot with central/central-north italian. Amazing.

It was already known that S.Italian hasn't any substructure but at this point I mean...

[Samnium]

double

[Samnium]

Umbrian, Cosentian and Palermo grandparents (We don't know the exact origin)

Italian 73.5%
Greek & Balkan 9.1%
Spanish & Portuguese 0.9%
Broadly Southern European 11.6%
Broadly European 0.2%
Anatolian 0.4%
Broadly Northern West Asian 0.4%
Coptic Egyptian 0.4%
North African 0.1%
Broadly Western Asian & North African 2.8%
Unassigned 0.5%

I'm pretty sure that all the Greek come from Cosenza, so that would mean that her grandparent would be like 20/30% greek if not more which is huge. Notice how low is her northern western asian being cosentian, umbriand and palermitan. I'm pretty sure that her coptic and NA % comes from Palermo.

[Samnium]

+ I've forgotten to say that, but some are showing recent ancestors (actually nearly half of the samples), so this greek and balkan is not only ancient.

[Maxitor]

So these results would likely plot with central/central-north italian. Amazing.

It was already known that S.Italian hasn't any substructure but at this point I mean...

You’re talking about plotting, and I’m talking about 23andme results.

23andme already has the Italian regional admixtures proportions, and the extra Ancient West Asian is obviously part of the Admixture.

Somehow 23andme has decided to specify these Ancient genetic components, Although they claim they're only recent generations.

[Maxitor]

+ I've forgotten to say that, but some are showing recent ancestors (actually nearly half of the samples), so this greek and balkan is not only ancient.

In some pockets of Puglia and others, not the all South.

[Samnium]

In some pockets of Puglia and others, not the all South.

Cosentian results did show 18% with Ionian Sea recent ancestors. It's definitely not some pockets in Apulia.

But I do agree that we will see that only in heavy greek admixed areas so Cosenza/Crotone/Apulia and Basilicata. In Campania/most Sicily (except Syracusa and other areas of greek population)/rest of Calabria little ancestry to none.

What interest me even more is the italic input. It must have been huge. The cosentian/umbrian/palermitan result that I've sent has very low northern asian, that mean that not only his umbrian but also cosentian side would make him to come with like 3% Western Asian, Levantine, Arabian and NA.

[Maxitor]

Cosentian results did show 18% with Ionian Sea recent ancestors. It's definitely not some pockets in Apulia.

But I do agree that we will see that only in heavy greek admixed areas so Cosenza/Crotone/Apulia and Basilicata. In Campania/most Sicily (except Syracusa and other areas of greek population)/rest of Calabria little ancestry to none.

What interest me even more is the italic input. It must have been huge. The cosentian/umbrian/palermitan result that I've sent has very low northern asian, that mean that not only his umbrian but also cosentian side would make him to come with like 3% Western Asian, Levantine, Arabian and NA.

Autosomal Admixture Map of Italy
(all’incirca)

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191008/64b91471ccf10a78fe4fd6333373be63.jpg

https://www.ethnopedia.info

[Maxitor]

I would like to see the 23andme result with a score of 100% Italian posted on GedMatch.

Only then we’ll know for sure what’s the Admixture proportion of what 23andme considers to be an Italian.

That would be our point of reference.

So far I haven't seen any, but if anyone knows, please let us know.

[Inquizzzitor]

Umbrian, Cosentian and Palermo grandparents (We don't know the exact origin)

Italian 73.5%
Greek & Balkan 9.1%
Spanish & Portuguese 0.9%
Broadly Southern European 11.6%
Broadly European 0.2%
Anatolian 0.4%
Broadly Northern West Asian 0.4%
Coptic Egyptian 0.4%
North African 0.1%
Broadly Western Asian & North African 2.8%
Unassigned 0.5%

I'm pretty sure that all the Greek come from Cosenza, so that would mean that her grandparent would be like 20/30% greek if not more which is huge. Notice how low is her northern western asian being cosentian, umbriand and palermitan. I'm pretty sure that her coptic and NA % comes from Palermo.

I'm going to pipe up here finally because you evidently don't understand how genes work. If all your grandparents are 1/4 German, let's say, you'll also be around 1/4 German which 23andMe will tell you means that you had an ancestor from Germany within the past 2 generations. In fact, you had no ancestors living in Germany within the last 2 generations, nor even the last 3 or 4. So, for me, for example, I score about 3% Greek which 23andMe says is evidence I had ancestors living in Greece around 150-200 years ago. In fact, it is simply that my Messinese Sicilian great-grandfather had a large chunk of his genome that was "Greek" but not any ancestors in the last couple hundred years who were actually from Greece.

[Dorian]

I noticed two more regions of Italy were added on my 23 , it was Calabria,Sicily,Abruzzo&Lazio before ,now Molise&Basilicata have been added.
What do you think about these OP? molise seems to be connected to arbereshe while basilicata has Greek past.

[Samnium]

I noticed two more regions of Italy were added on my 23 , it was Calabria,Sicily,Abruzzo&Lazio before ,now Molise&Basilicata have been added.
What do you think about these OP? molise seems to be connected to arbereshe while basilicata has Greek past.

I think that Basilicata has more Greek admixture than Molise for obvious historical regions but Molise is not that far from Adriatic coast so there is possibly ancient illyrian influence.

Arbereshe only settled in Calabria and Sicily (with also few villages in Puglia I think but that's all).

I haven't posted yet here, but I found substantial signs of Italic admixture in Cosenza, it's from Eupedia maps, they are outdated and not representative BUT they showed that Cosenza (and particuliarly the area around Cosenza) has the same amount of italic/celtic Y-DNA that areas of central Italy have.

[Samnium]

double

[Samnium]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/490553013124202496/632944290938617897/unknown.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/490553013124202496/632943678658183219/unknown.png

These maps are not totally true because Sicily has likely very low italic/celtic related haplogroups.

[Dorian]

I think that Basilicata has more Greek admixture than Molise for obvious historical regions but Molise is not that far from Adriatic coast so there is possibly ancient illyrian influence.

Arbereshe only settled in Calabria and Sicily (with also few villages in Puglia I think but that's all).

I haven't posted yet here, but I found substantial signs of Italic admixture in Cosenza, it's from Eupedia maps, they are outdated and not representative BUT they showed that Cosenza (and particuliarly the area around Cosenza) has the same amount of italic/celtic Y-DNA that areas of central Italy have.

I only took a quick look at their wiki pages ,it says about molise:
"The region is home to two main ethnic minorities: the Molisan Croats (20,000 people who speak an old Dalmatian dialect of the Croatian language alongside Italian), and those who speak the "arbereshe" dialect of Albanian in five towns of "basso Molise" in the province of Campobasso."

[Samnium]

I only took a quick look at their wiki pages ,it says about molise:
"The region is home to two main ethnic minorities: the Molisan Croats (20,000 people who speak an old Dalmatian dialect of the Croatian language alongside Italian), and those who speak the "arbereshe" dialect of Albanian in five towns of "basso Molise" in the province of Campobasso."

Yep I know that there was Arbereshe also outside Calabria/Sicily but the most are in Calabria were you can finds litteraly dozens of villages that are "Arbereshe" in origins.

And contrary to what it's said I do think that they have married somewhat local population BECAUSE you find in these villages surnames that are not of Arbereshe origin (like the maiden name of my mother), so there was a wedding with a non-arbereshe person at some point.

[redeyednewt]

Genetic differentiation in S.Italy : new clusters and evidence for recent admixture from Greece

There are a lot of southern italian results that are coming, they are redefining how we see S.Italy genetically speaking.

Apulians and Calabrians results show an elevated % of greek and balkan with a lot of these showing recent ancestors, that's mean there was a recent migration from mainland or Ionian greek islands to mainland southern Italy.

Apulians have shown in the past to have a lot of greek/balkan and for obvious historical and geographical reasons (they are in front of Greece) it was pretty logical.

What is very surprising is Cosenza , Calabria was thought to be uniformly outlying in Levant direction but that's not true. The result that has one of the most Greek and Balkan is an half abruzzese/half cosentian result with 20% of greek/balkan, that would mean that there are cosentians with 30/40% if not more (Abbruzzo don't show a lot of recent greek and balkan admixture) greek/balkan DNA !

Calabrian and apulian results

Apulians :

4/4 Apulian
Italian 55%
Greek and Balkan 6.8%
Spanish and Portuguese 0.9%
Broadly Southern European !5.4%
Scandinavian 0.5%
Broadly Northwestern European 0.9%
Eastern European 0.6%
Broadly European 1.7%
Anatolian 4.6%
Cypriot 4.2%
Broadly Northern West Asian 2.9%
Levantine 0.3%
Broadly Arab, Egyptian & Levantine 0.9%
Broadly Western Asian & North African 4.3%
Unassigned 1%

4/4 Apulian
Italian 49.3%
Greek & Balkan 10.3%
Spanish & Portuguese 2.8%
Broadly Southern European 11.1%
French & German 4.8%
Broadly Northwestern European 0.4%
Eastern European 1.0%
Ashkenazi Jewish 0.1%
Broadly European 1.0%
Anatolian 3.0%
Cypriot 2.1%
Broadly Northern West Asian 2.9%
Levantine 1.2%
Broadly Arab, Egyptian & Levantine 3.5%
Broadly Western Asian & North African 4.8%
East Asian 0.1%
Cenral and South Asian 0.1%
Sub-Saharan 0.1%
Unassigned 1.5%

4/4 Apulian
Italian54.3%
Greek & Balkan 6.5%
Spanish & Portuguese 0.5%
Sardinian 0.3%
Broadly Southern European 19.3%
Northwestern European 1.0%
French & German 0.9%
Eastern European 0.6%
Broadly European 5.5%
Anatolian 5.5%
Broadly Northern West Asian 3.9%
Broadly Western Asian & North African1.3%
Sub-Saharan 0.1%
Unassigned 1.4%
https://i.imgur.com/F14Amai.png
https://i.imgur.com/FAAO5mV.png

Cosentians :

1/2 Abruzzo 1/2 Cosenza Calabria
Italian 49.2%
Greek & Balkan 20.3%
Spanish & Portuguese 1.7%
Broadly Southern European 10.0%
British & Irish 0.2%
Broadly Northwestern European 0.1%
Broadly European 0.6%
Anatolian 2.5%
Cypriot 2.5%
Broadly Northern West Asian 4.0%
Arab, Egyptian & Levantine 1.0%
Broadly Arab, Egyptian & Levantine 1.0%
North African 0.1%
Broadly Western Asian & North African 6.0%
East Asian 0.1%
Unassigned 1.8%
https://i.imgur.com/H51lUin.png
https://i.imgur.com/erGTOrd.png
https://i.imgur.com/d1ubqvB.png



So basically there is a new Cosentian/Apulian cluster that is appearing. As you noticed Cosentians and Apulians have all (except one cosentian but he may be an outlier) less than 20% MENA, substantial Greek and Balkan admixture and very low (or absent) Levantine admixture. This would cause a northern shift with in the case of Cosenza, a very strong italic impact. Why ? The cosentian result that is low in greek and balkan is also low on MENA, that's mean that in the Italian category there would be a lot of genuine Italic DNA brought by Brettii (Lucanians) and other italic tribes.

Let's now compare with results from other calabrian regions.


4/4 Calabrian (unknow location but likely from Reggio/Vibo/Catanzaro)
Italian 60.0%
Greek & Balkan 0.9%
Spanish & Portuguese 0.6%
Broadly Southern European 7.7%
Broadly European 0.6%
Anatolian 4.2%
Iranian, Caucasian & Mesopotamian 3.9%
Cypriot 0.2%
Broadly Northern West Asian 10.1%
Arab, Egyptian & Levantine 2.7%
Egyptian 1.4%
Broadly Arab, Egyptian & Levantine 1.3%
North African 0.6%
Broadly Western Asian & North African 6.6%
West African 0.1%
Broadly West African 0.1%
Broadly Central & South Asian 0.1%
https://i.imgur.com/eVXHupt.png (Reggio Calabria)
https://i.imgur.com/AfTN5M2.png (Catanzaro)


Possible reasons for Cosentian differentiation

1) Strong ancient Italic/Greek input by Brettii (Lucanians), Oenetri, Greek mainlanders (and Ionian islanders) and some other Italiotes tribes.
2) Autochtonous populations weren't related to western asians or the near east (or were replaced by the demographic growth of Brettii and Greeks), probably sardinian-like (so west-med shifted).
3) 0 impact from byzantine western asians migrations/arab/berbers
4) Very isolated place, 0 internal migration, people have retained these influences.
5) Recent mainland/Ionian greek input

Yes Cosentino or Cosenza province of Calabria, is extremely Greek, Illyrian, and also Gothic/Visigothic; but all of this is not a secret. ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaric_I

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Grecia

[redeyednewt]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/490553013124202496/632944290938617897/unknown.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/490553013124202496/632943678658183219/unknown.png

These maps are not totally true because Sicily has likely very low italic/celtic related haplogroups.

Just wondering, what are the YDNA haplogroups for those two maps for the Italo-Celtic and Halstaadt-Celtic-Italian DNA?

[Samnium]

Just wondering, what are the YDNA haplogroups for those two maps for the Italo-Celtic and Halstaadt-Celtic-Italian DNA?

I think various subclades of R1b, since R1b is high in Western Europe.

But I don't think that this map is accurate because Sicily has likely very low italic input. The Sicels that came in that island likely weren't in huge numbers and stayed mostly in Calabria, especially Cosenza. Because yes Sicels before pushing toward Sicily lived in Calabria. After that the sheperds of Lucanians (still Italic people) that rebelled came in Calabria and created the Bruttian nation with Sicels and other autochtonous people that grew up very fast demographically.

There was also Samnite tribes that came in fact the village of my grandparents is named "Marzi", referring to "Li Marzi Sanniti" an italic tribe from Abbruzzo that created a sanctuary. They have found tombs in that village with big squelettons, likely warriors.

[Samnium]

Yes Cosentino or Cosenza province of Calabria, is extremely Greek, Illyrian, and also Gothic/Visigothic; but all of this is not a secret. ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaric_I

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magna_Grecia

I think that besides Greek, Norman (there is a 6% peak haplogroup in Cosenza) and Italic component there is a strong west med component.

For example people from my family are very light in pigmentation, but quite dark haired and some light eyes (above calabrian average however I think) with very west med features. One of the studies that I have provided showed that Cosenza was closer to Ibiza for X-chromosome, that would denote this west med legacy and link.

International geneticists failed to show what a national scientist said in one of the studies that I have quoted.

""Figure 2a reflects a strong impact of gene flow versus genetic drift in the Mediterranean region (according to Koizumi et al [22]). Nevertheless, it is worth to pay attention to specific populations where other demographic scenarios such as geographic isolation, genetic drift or population admixture have probably played an important role in their current genetic constitution. As we have commented above, relative high genetic distances between neighbouring populations were found between Cosenza and (1) Catanzaro and (2) Reggio di Calabria and between Ibiza and (1) Majorca and (2) Valencia. The results support the hypothesis that the genetic differentiation of the Ibiza and Cosenza populations is a result of their particular demographic histories [15, 16, 23].

[...]

Tagarelli et al [16] described the Calabria province as a collection of many "human genetic isolates". In contrast to Catanzaro and Reggio di Calabria, Cosenza did not suffer destructive telluric events that would have modified its population structure. So, the population heterogeneity inside Cosenza is more patent than in any of the other two populations. This is reflected by the heterogenic distribution of various genetic markers at the coast compared to the internal areas [16]. The results obtained with the 25 X-chromosome markers were in agreement with the previous studies. Cosenza showed not just a relatively high genetic differentiation compared to the populations from Catanzaro and Reggio di Calabria but also a certain displacement in relation to other Mediterranean populations. This was also the case of the Ibiza population."

[Samnium]

The three studies that I have provided are by far the most informative about how Calabria is diverse and not that all as the whole shifted towards Levant or exotic or whatever.

[Kamal900]

Very interesting. Can you list off which regions of Southern Italy have the highest MENA ancestry?

[Kamal900]

I got these from Anthrogenica:

City of Palermo:
https://i.imgur.com/BNwokaP.png

Carini, Palermo:
https://i.imgur.com/9R1tEkY.png

Carini, Palermo:
https://i.imgur.com/2kGdHsU.png

Torretta, Palermo:
https://i.imgur.com/AImGn0M.png

Multiple towns, western Palermo province:
https://i.imgur.com/TUstBu5.png

Carini, Palermo:
https://i.imgur.com/YmAbxMu.png

[Samnium]

Very interesting. Can you list off which regions of Southern Italy have the highest MENA ancestry?

I would say : Vibo Valentia/Reggio Calabria/Catanzaro (S.Calabria provinces), Caltanisseta/Messina/Catania/Palermo/Enna (Central and NE Sicily), Campania as a whole, S.Calabria.

[Kamal900]

I would say : Vibo Valentia/Reggio Calabria/Catanzaro (S.Calabria provinces), Caltanisseta/Messina/Catania/Palermo/Enna (Central and NE Sicily), Campania as a whole, S.Calabria.

Don't forget Matlese..even though they're not Southern Italians.
https://i.imgur.com/MbyC3ez.png
https://i.imgur.com/uInKsNW.png

[Samnium]

Don't forget Matlese..even though they're not Southern Italians.
https://i.imgur.com/MbyC3ez.png
https://i.imgur.com/uInKsNW.png

Maltese are basically Sicilians with more North-African input (some recent locations are showing up, no surprise there).

[redeyednewt]

I think that besides Greek, Norman (there is a 6% peak haplogroup in Cosenza) and Italic component there is a strong west med component.

For example people from my family are very light in pigmentation, but quite dark haired and some light eyes (above calabrian average however I think) with very west med features. One of the studies that I have provided showed that Cosenza was closer to Ibiza for X-chromosome, that would denote this west med legacy and link.

International geneticists failed to show what a national scientist said in one of the studies that I have quoted.

""Figure 2a reflects a strong impact of gene flow versus genetic drift in the Mediterranean region (according to Koizumi et al [22]). Nevertheless, it is worth to pay attention to specific populations where other demographic scenarios such as geographic isolation, genetic drift or population admixture have probably played an important role in their current genetic constitution. As we have commented above, relative high genetic distances between neighbouring populations were found between Cosenza and (1) Catanzaro and (2) Reggio di Calabria and between Ibiza and (1) Majorca and (2) Valencia. The results support the hypothesis that the genetic differentiation of the Ibiza and Cosenza populations is a result of their particular demographic histories [15, 16, 23].

[...]

Tagarelli et al [16] described the Calabria province as a collection of many "human genetic isolates". In contrast to Catanzaro and Reggio di Calabria, Cosenza did not suffer destructive telluric events that would have modified its population structure. So, the population heterogeneity inside Cosenza is more patent than in any of the other two populations. This is reflected by the heterogenic distribution of various genetic markers at the coast compared to the internal areas [16]. The results obtained with the 25 X-chromosome markers were in agreement with the previous studies. Cosenza showed not just a relatively high genetic differentiation compared to the populations from Catanzaro and Reggio di Calabria but also a certain displacement in relation to other Mediterranean populations. This was also the case of the Ibiza population."

Yes a lot of Iberian/Spanish, and French people settled in or invaded what is now the province of Cosenza, Calabria, Italia. While not western Mediterranean or a Mediterranean country/region at all a lot of Austrians and Southern Germans-Swabians, also settled/invaded Cosenza province.

If it is not too much to ask would you mind going to my links and telling me which European countries I pass in? Thanks.

[Samnium]

Yes a lot of Iberian/Spanish, and French people settled in or invaded what is now the province of Cosenza, Calabria, Italia. While not western Mediterranean or a Mediterranean country/region at all a lot of Austrians and Southern Germans-Swabians, also settled/invaded Cosenza province.

If it is not too much to ask would you mind going to my links and telling me which European countries I pass in? Thanks.

Do you have some references ? I have never heard about heavy settlement of French, Iberian/Spanish and also Austrians/Southern Germans. The only thing that I know well is that Normans came in Calabria, although probably not in significant proportion.

I'm very interested about what you said. You pass in Balkans, Italy, Central Euro and France. (Iberia also) France would be a good fit I think more than Italy. (I know some "famous people" or not that have your kind of face).

Actually you look a little bit like me, I've also been classified as Atlanto-Dinaric in the past.

[kefalonitis]

''From there it is a day's journey to Colo di Bari, which is the great city which King William of Sicily destroyed(33). Neither Jews nor Gentiles live there at the present day in consequence of its destruction. Thence it is a day and a half to Taranto, which is under the government of Calabria, the inhabitants of which are Greek(34). It is a large city, and contains about 300 Jews, some of them men of learning, and at their head are R. Meir, R. Nathan, and R. Israel.''
Just a quote i found about Calabria in the book ''The Itinerary of Benjamin of Tudela'' (12th century AD,a very good work btw written by an Iberian Jew who travelled Europe,Asia&Africa).

ps.Also as an Ionian islander i have to say that many Calabrians settled in Lefkada during 14&15th century.

[Samnium]

''From there it is a day's journey to Colo di Bari, which is the great city which King William of Sicily destroyed(33). Neither Jews nor Gentiles live there at the present day in consequence of its destruction. Thence it is a day and a half to Taranto, which is under the government of Calabria, the inhabitants of which are Greek(34). It is a large city, and contains about 300 Jews, some of them men of learning, and at their head are R. Meir, R. Nathan, and R. Israel.''
Just a quote i found about Calabria in the book ''The Itinerary of Benjamin of Tudela'' (12th century AD,a very good work btw written by an Iberian Jew who travelled Europe,Asia&Africa).

ps.Also as an Ionian islander i have to say that many Calabrians settled in Lefkada during 14&15th century.

What I find strange it's the recent ancestry coming from Greece. There wasn't any record of greek migrations. So basically for Tudela N.Calabria was greek ethnically (I suppose northern because Taranto is far from Reggio).

Maybe it is the case of Ionian Islands, the fact that some calabrians (from Cosenza) settled in those islands could explain why 23andme show Ionian Islands as recent ancestor, but it don't explain the 18% greek and balkan result that has no recent location (ancient ?).

Unfortunately we haven't the kits of these results so impossible to run them on calculators.

[Samnium]

What interest me the more is probably italic input.

"In northern Apulia, there was a tendency towards the development of fully urban communities. The Lucanians and Bruttians, however, were organised on less urbanised lines. There were fewer urban centres in Calabria and Basilicata—with the exception of the Greek cities— than was the case in Campania, and the tendency seems to have been towards a federal structure of smaller, proto-urban communities, with a small number of larger settlements which are sometimes referred to by the sources as poleis or urbes. 80" Rome and the western Greeks, Kathryn Lomas

[kefalonitis]

What I find strange it's the recent ancestry coming from Greece. There wasn't any record of greek migrations.


There was a migrant wave of Peloponesian Greeks to S.Italy in 16th&17th century.

[Samnium]

There was a migrant wave of Peloponesian Greeks to S.Italy in 16th&17th century.Never heard about that. Interesting. In which part they came ? Coastal areas of Cosenza, inland, Reggio Calabria, Crotone, or Basilicata, Apulia ?

Envoyé de mon ALE-L21 en utilisant Tapatalk

[kefalonitis]

Never heard about that. Interesting. In which part they came ? Coastal areas of Cosenza, inland, Reggio Calabria, Crotone, or Basilicata, Apulia ?

Envoyé de mon ALE-L21 en utilisant Tapatalk
They settled in Italy after the defeat of Venetians from the Ottomans.
I don't know exactly in which part of S.Italy they established,but i've read that some of them moved even in Corsica.
They were mostly Maniots from south Peloponese.

edit:according to greek wiki they moved to Salento,Calabria and Sicily

[Samnium]

They settled in Italy after the defeat of Venetians from the Ottomans.
I don't know exactly in which part of S.Italy they established,but i've read that some of them moved even in Corsica.
They were mostly Maniots from south Peloponese.

edit:according to greek wiki they moved to Salento,Calabria and SicilyWow very interesting. This is impossible to find in any italian book about Calabria history, thank you for the information !

Envoyé de mon ALE-L21 en utilisant Tapatalk

[Samnium]

Something that confirm my theory about people that could have retained NW influence, or maybe other influences (Italic etc). I've found this post on Anthrogenica :

"I am a T2c1a born in Calabria Southern Italy Living Dna indicates 10% autosomal dna is similar to British (East Anglia) My mother's family is exceptionally tall and blue eyed my maternal uncles were 6'4 plus and I have a cousin known locally as "il Gigante" who is 6' 8" My theory is that height (and the T2c1a) comes via the Normans. The first King of Sicily Roger D'hautville's capital city, Mileto, was 10 miles away."

It's an incredible result, something more to put on the face of people that want to generalize Italian genetics.

10% English is quite a north-shift, and thinks that his paternal side had probably none, so his mother could have been like 20/25% English !

[Samnium]

Mileto is located in Southern Calabria for information.

[Samnium]

Bump

[Samnium]

There are very few calabrian samples and most of them come from Reggio Calabria/Catanzaro/Vibo Valentia.

Sikeliot found one "Tuscan" like Sicilian :

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?242191-Three-more-quot-atypical-Sicilian-GEDMATCH-results-Trapani-vs-Syracuse-vs-Palermo-Enna

Eurogenes K15:
# Population Percent
1 East_Med 23.94
2 West_Med 21.03
3 Atlantic 17.97
4 West_Asian 11.08
5 North_Sea 10.57
6 Baltic 8.17
7 Red_Sea 4.56
8 Northeast_African 1.24
9 Southeast_Asian 0.6
10 Eastern_Euro 0.47
11 Oceanian 0.32
12 Sub-Saharan 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Tuscan 5.55
2 West_Sicilian 5.64
3 Italian_Abruzzo 6.8
4 East_Sicilian 7.22
5 Central_Greek 7.76
6 Greek 8.09
7 South_Italian 8.11
8 Greek_Thessaly 8.91
9 Ashkenazi 10.43
10 North_Italian 11.21
11 Italian_Jewish 12.05
12 Algerian_Jewish 13.08
13 Sephardic_Jewish 13.28
14 Bulgarian 14.41
15 Romanian 16.48
16 Tunisian_Jewish 17.32
17 Spanish_Andalucia 17.89
18 Spanish_Extremadura 18.21
19 Spanish_Murcia 18.53
20 Portuguese 18.55

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 75.4% South_Italian + 24.6% Southwest_French @ 2.88
2 74.8% South_Italian + 25.2% Spanish_Cantabria @ 3.08
3 59% South_Italian + 41% North_Italian @ 3.08
4 70.2% South_Italian + 29.8% Spanish_Andalucia @ 3.1
5 72% South_Italian + 28% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 3.11
6 72.3% South_Italian + 27.7% Spanish_Valencia @ 3.3
7 74.8% South_Italian + 25.2% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.31
8 73.3% South_Italian + 26.7% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 3.41
9 62.7% Tuscan + 37.3% South_Italian @ 3.41
10 72.8% South_Italian + 27.2% Spanish_Cataluna @ 3.42
11 71.3% South_Italian + 28.7% Portuguese @ 3.42
12 71.4% South_Italian + 28.6% Spanish_Murcia @ 3.52
13 71% South_Italian + 29% Spanish_Extremadura @ 3.53
14 72.4% South_Italian + 27.6% Spanish_Galicia @ 3.58
15 73.7% East_Sicilian + 26.3% Spanish_Andalucia @ 3.61
16 81.4% South_Italian + 18.6% French_Basque @ 3.71
17 66% North_Italian + 34% Cyprian @ 3.77
18 83.7% East_Sicilian + 16.3% French_Basque @ 3.79
19 78.1% East_Sicilian + 21.9% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.79
20 75.8% East_Sicilian + 24.2% Spanish_Valencia @ 3.8

Not really Tuscan but maybe Umbrian-like. Maybe southern Tuscan tho.

[Samnium]

Another northern shifted sample :

Eurogenes K15:

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 27.98
2 West_Med 19.67
3 North_Sea 15.87
4 Atlantic 15.38
5 West_Asian 13.66
6 Red_Sea 3.49
7 Baltic 3.19
8 Northeast_African 0.52
9 Sub-Saharan 0.23
10 Eastern_Euro 0.01

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Italian_Abruzzo 6.89
2 South_Italian 7.48
3 West_Sicilian 7.64
4 East_Sicilian 7.66
5 Central_Greek 7.81
6 Tuscan 8.96
7 Italian_Jewish 10.24
8 Ashkenazi 10.67
9 Greek_Thessaly 10.81
10 Greek 12.14
11 Sephardic_Jewish 12.46
12 Algerian_Jewish 12.47
13 North_Italian 14.58
14 Tunisian_Jewish 16.33
15 Libyan_Jewish 16.58
16 Bulgarian 18.26
17 Cyprian 18.82
18 Romanian 19.6
19 Spanish_Extremadura 21.12
20 Portuguese 21.22

WHERE is Lebanon again?? ^^

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 87.2% South_Italian + 12.8% Orcadian @ 5.23
2 84.1% South_Italian + 15.9% West_German @ 5.29
3 86.2% South_Italian + 13.8% Southwest_English @ 5.33
4 82.5% South_Italian + 17.5% French @ 5.35
5 88.1% South_Italian + 11.9% West_Norwegian @ 5.39
6 80.5% South_Italian + 19.5% Spanish_Galicia @ 5.43
7 86.8% South_Italian + 13.2% Southeast_English @ 5.44
8 80.1% South_Italian + 19.9% Portuguese @ 5.49
9 87.7% South_Italian + 12.3% West_Scottish @ 5.52
10 87.6% South_Italian + 12.4% North_Dutch @ 5.58
11 87.7% South_Italian + 12.3% Irish @ 5.59
12 81.6% South_Italian + 18.4% Spanish_Cataluna @ 5.61
13 88.2% South_Italian + 11.8% Norwegian @ 5.61
14 87.8% South_Italian + 12.2% Danish @ 5.67
15 80.9% South_Italian + 19.1% Spanish_Murcia @ 5.67
16 73.5% South_Italian + 26.5% North_Italian @ 5.7
17 85.5% South_Italian + 14.5% South_Dutch @ 5.71
18 80.8% South_Italian + 19.2% Spanish_Extremadura @ 5.72
19 58.8% South_Italian + 41.2% Tuscan @ 5.72
20 79.2% Tuscan + 20.8% Lebanese_Druze @ 5.73


MDLP K23b:

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 34.70
2 European_Early_Farmers 26.24
3 European_Hunters_Gatherers 13.86
4 Near_East 9.26
5 North_African 8.04
6 South_Central_Asian 6.32


Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Sicilian_Trapani @ 3.211470
2 Sicilian_West @ 3.983752
3 Sicilian_Agrigento @ 5.226743
4 Sicilian_Siracusa @ 5.308137
5 Maltese @ 5.416505
6 Ashkenazi_Jew @ 5.853701
7 Sicilian_East @ 5.995245
8 Italian_Abruzzo @ 6.854903
9 Ashkenazi @ 7.053938
10 French_Jew @ 8.384623
11 Italian_Tuscan @ 9.129688
12 Romanian_Jew @ 9.143298
13 Sicilian_Center @ 9.241087
14 Italian_South @ 10.187780
15 Greek_Northwest @ 10.266053 <<< CLOSER TO EPIRUS THAN TO CRETE??
16 Greek_Peloponnesos @ 10.272348
17 Central_Greek @ 10.555231
18 Greek_Athens @ 10.619128
19 Cretan @ 10.654578
20 Greek_Thessaly @ 10.997079

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Sicilian_Trapani +50% Sicilian_West @ 3.151285


Near East Neolithic K13:


# Population Percent
1 CHG_EEF 31.34
2 ANATOLIA_NEOLITHIC 24.44
3 NATUFIAN 16.19
4 IRAN_NEOLITHIC 12.7
5 SHG_WHG 7.42
6 EHG 6.18
7 KARITIANA 0.88
8 SUB_SAHARAN 0.87

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sicilian 4.42
2 Jew_Ashkenazi 7.64
3 Greek 7.84
4 Italian_South 9.16
5 Albanian 9.72
6 Jew_Moroccan 10.53
7 Bulgarian 14.44
8 Cypriot 14.65
9 Turkish_Istanbul 15.53
10 Jew_Libyan 15.54
11 Jew_Tunisian 15.54
12 Turkish 15.56
13 Romanian 17.59
14 Turkish_Balekesir 18.16
15 Turkish_Adana 19.01
16 Turkish_Aydin 19.05
17 Turkish_Kayseri 19.5
18 Lebanese 20.23
19 Sardinian 21.95
20 Croatian 22.72

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 93.6% Sicilian + 6.4% Europe_MNChL @ 2.51
2 87.8% Greek + 12.2% Levant_N @ 2.68
3 88.3% Jew_Ashkenazi + 11.7% Europe_MNChL @ 2.79
4 93.2% Sicilian + 6.8% Anatolia_ChL @ 3.04
5 95.3% Sicilian + 4.7% Europe_EN @ 3.05
6 96% Sicilian + 4% Anatolia_N @ 3.17
7 90.3% Jew_Ashkenazi + 9.7% Europe_EN @ 3.29
8 83.5% Albanian + 16.5% Levant_BA @ 3.38
9 93% Sicilian + 7% Stuttgart @ 3.45
10 86.8% Greek + 13.2% Levant_BA @ 3.5
11 91.7% Jew_Ashkenazi + 8.3% Anatolia_N @ 3.65
12 95.5% Sicilian + 4.5% Levant_N @ 3.67
13 94.3% Sicilian + 5.7% Armenia_ChL @ 3.78
14 90.9% Sicilian + 9.1% Sardinian @ 3.86
15 98.2% Sicilian + 1.8% Bichon @ 3.94
16 98.2% Sicilian + 1.8% SHG @ 3.94
17 96% Sicilian + 4% Levant_BA @ 3.98
18 98.2% Sicilian + 1.8% WHG @ 4.01
19 87.1% Jew_Ashkenazi + 12.9% Anatolia_ChL @ 4.03
20 85.1% Jew_Ashkenazi + 14.9% Stuttgart @ 4.13

[Samnium]

I can show you also Cyprian like samples, and then you would understand how much Southern italian cluster is large and diverse.

I repost here :


Something that confirm my theory about people that could have retained NW influence, or maybe other influences (Italic etc). I've found this post on Anthrogenica :

"I am a T2c1a born in Calabria Southern Italy Living Dna indicates 10% autosomal dna is similar to British (East Anglia) My mother's family is exceptionally tall and blue eyed my maternal uncles were 6'4 plus and I have a cousin known locally as "il Gigante" who is 6' 8" My theory is that height (and the T2c1a) comes via the Normans. The first King of Sicily Roger D'hautville's capital city, Mileto, was 10 miles away."

[Rgvgjhvv]

Cool. I'm guessing, from the Aegean Island results, I would would have more West Asian than I thought.

I'm probably roughly 70-75% Euro 20-25% West Asian

[Rgvgjhvv]

I'm not good at math.

[Samnium]

Cool. I'm guessing, from the Aegean Island results, I would would have more West Asian than I thought.

I'm probably roughly 70-75% Euro 20-25% West Asian

Something like that yes.

Similar breakdown as most of Southern Italians !

[Rgvgjhvv]

Something like that yes.

Similar breakdown as most of Southern Italians !

So what does my friend Sikelidoink think of this?

[Samnium]

So what does my friend Sikelidoink think of this?

"Typical results"* for an islander !

But you plot with Northern Aegean Greek Islanders (Central Greek reference), not Crete or other islands like that. So probably more around 20% MENA than 25% .

[Rgvgjhvv]

"Typical results"* for an islander !

But you plot with Northern Aegean Greek Islanders (Central Greek reference), not Crete or other islands like that. So probably more around 20% MENA than 25% .

Sorry I meant about these new results and the comparison between Greeks and Southern Italians? When he left here he acted like the two populations were Bulgaria and Algeria. Just wondering if he's changed at all haha

[Lucas]

Samnium threads reminds me Sikeliot. It's not wrong. Just an observation.

[Leto]

There are very few calabrian samples and most of them come from Reggio Calabria/Catanzaro/Vibo Valentia.

Sikeliot found one "Tuscan" like Sicilian :

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?242191-Three-more-quot-atypical-Sicilian-GEDMATCH-results-Trapani-vs-Syracuse-vs-Palermo-Enna

Eurogenes K15:
# Population Percent
1 East_Med 23.94
2 West_Med 21.03
3 Atlantic 17.97
4 West_Asian 11.08
5 North_Sea 10.57
6 Baltic 8.17
7 Red_Sea 4.56
8 Northeast_African 1.24
9 Southeast_Asian 0.6
10 Eastern_Euro 0.47
11 Oceanian 0.32
12 Sub-Saharan 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Tuscan 5.55
2 West_Sicilian 5.64
3 Italian_Abruzzo 6.8
4 East_Sicilian 7.22
5 Central_Greek 7.76
6 Greek 8.09
7 South_Italian 8.11
8 Greek_Thessaly 8.91
9 Ashkenazi 10.43
10 North_Italian 11.21
11 Italian_Jewish 12.05
12 Algerian_Jewish 13.08
13 Sephardic_Jewish 13.28
14 Bulgarian 14.41
15 Romanian 16.48
16 Tunisian_Jewish 17.32
17 Spanish_Andalucia 17.89
18 Spanish_Extremadura 18.21
19 Spanish_Murcia 18.53
20 Portuguese 18.55

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 75.4% South_Italian + 24.6% Southwest_French @ 2.88
2 74.8% South_Italian + 25.2% Spanish_Cantabria @ 3.08
3 59% South_Italian + 41% North_Italian @ 3.08
4 70.2% South_Italian + 29.8% Spanish_Andalucia @ 3.1
5 72% South_Italian + 28% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 3.11
6 72.3% South_Italian + 27.7% Spanish_Valencia @ 3.3
7 74.8% South_Italian + 25.2% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.31
8 73.3% South_Italian + 26.7% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 3.41
9 62.7% Tuscan + 37.3% South_Italian @ 3.41
10 72.8% South_Italian + 27.2% Spanish_Cataluna @ 3.42
11 71.3% South_Italian + 28.7% Portuguese @ 3.42
12 71.4% South_Italian + 28.6% Spanish_Murcia @ 3.52
13 71% South_Italian + 29% Spanish_Extremadura @ 3.53
14 72.4% South_Italian + 27.6% Spanish_Galicia @ 3.58
15 73.7% East_Sicilian + 26.3% Spanish_Andalucia @ 3.61
16 81.4% South_Italian + 18.6% French_Basque @ 3.71
17 66% North_Italian + 34% Cyprian @ 3.77
18 83.7% East_Sicilian + 16.3% French_Basque @ 3.79
19 78.1% East_Sicilian + 21.9% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.79
20 75.8% East_Sicilian + 24.2% Spanish_Valencia @ 3.8

Not really Tuscan but maybe Umbrian-like. Maybe southern Tuscan tho.
They are Northern shifted on Dodecad too. Almost 32% Atlanto-Med and 16% NE is above the average for Sicily and much of South Italy. Theye come up as Central Italian.

Dodecad K12b:
# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Med 31.89
2 Caucasus 29.21
3 North_European 16.28
4 Southwest_Asian 10.74
5 Gedrosia 6.12
6 Northwest_African 4.17
7 East_African 0.69
8 Southeast_Asian 0.56
9 South_Asian 0.14
10 East_Asian 0.14

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 C_Italian (Dodecad) 4.89
2 O_Italian (Dodecad) 6.77
3 Sicilian (Dodecad) 8.06
4 Tuscan (HGDP) 8.11
5 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 8.24
6 TSI30 (Metspalu) 8.46
7 Greek (Dodecad) 9.88
8 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 11.37
9 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 11.78
10 N_Italian (Dodecad) 13.68
11 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 14.31
12 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 14.78
13 North_Italian (HGDP) 14.92
14 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 19.59
15 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 19.77
16 Romanians (Behar) 20.51
17 Baleares (1000Genomes) 22.66
18 Canarias (1000Genomes) 23.39
19 Galicia (1000Genomes) 23.68
20 Extremadura (1000Genomes) 23.9

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:



# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 67.8% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 32.2% French (HGDP) @ 1.46
2 69.1% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 30.9% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 1.55
3 73.3% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 26.7% British_Isles (Dodecad) @ 1.92
4 72.3% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 27.7% Kent (1000Genomes) @ 1.94
5 72.8% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 27.2% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 1.94
6 83.6% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 16.4% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 2.01
7 83.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 16.3% Irish (Dodecad) @ 2.01
8 83.8% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 16.2% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 2.02
9 83.2% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 16.8% British (Dodecad) @ 2.02
10 72.7% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 27.3% English (Dodecad) @ 2.04
11 72.7% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 27.3% CEU30 (1000Genomes) @ 2.05
12 73.1% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 26.9% British (Dodecad) @ 2.06
13 82.9% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 17.1% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 2.06
14 84% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 16% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 2.08
15 79.5% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 20.5% French (Dodecad) @ 2.23
16 82.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 17.3% Kent (1000Genomes) @ 2.26
17 83% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 17% English (Dodecad) @ 2.26
18 73.9% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 26.1% Irish (Dodecad) @ 2.27
19 83% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 17% CEU30 (1000Genomes) @ 2.3
20 83.5% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 16.5% British_Isles (Dodecad) @ 2.32

[Adamastor]

They are Northern shifted on Dodecad too. Almost 32% Atlanto-Med and 16% NE is above the average for Sicily and much of South Italy. Theye come up as Central Italian.

Dodecad K12b:
# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Med 31.89
2 Caucasus 29.21
3 North_European 16.28
4 Southwest_Asian 10.74
5 Gedrosia 6.12
6 Northwest_African 4.17
7 East_African 0.69
8 Southeast_Asian 0.56
9 South_Asian 0.14
10 East_Asian 0.14

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 C_Italian (Dodecad) 4.89
2 O_Italian (Dodecad) 6.77
3 Sicilian (Dodecad) 8.06
4 Tuscan (HGDP) 8.11
5 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 8.24
6 TSI30 (Metspalu) 8.46
7 Greek (Dodecad) 9.88
8 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 11.37
9 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 11.78
10 N_Italian (Dodecad) 13.68
11 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 14.31
12 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 14.78
13 North_Italian (HGDP) 14.92
14 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 19.59
15 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 19.77
16 Romanians (Behar) 20.51
17 Baleares (1000Genomes) 22.66
18 Canarias (1000Genomes) 23.39
19 Galicia (1000Genomes) 23.68
20 Extremadura (1000Genomes) 23.9

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:



# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 67.8% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 32.2% French (HGDP) @ 1.46
2 69.1% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 30.9% Morocco_Jews (Behar) @ 1.55
3 73.3% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 26.7% British_Isles (Dodecad) @ 1.92
4 72.3% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 27.7% Kent (1000Genomes) @ 1.94
5 72.8% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 27.2% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 1.94
6 83.6% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 16.4% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 2.01
7 83.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 16.3% Irish (Dodecad) @ 2.01
8 83.8% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 16.2% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 2.02
9 83.2% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 16.8% British (Dodecad) @ 2.02
10 72.7% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 27.3% English (Dodecad) @ 2.04
11 72.7% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 27.3% CEU30 (1000Genomes) @ 2.05
12 73.1% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 26.9% British (Dodecad) @ 2.06
13 82.9% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 17.1% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 2.06
14 84% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 16% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 2.08
15 79.5% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 20.5% French (Dodecad) @ 2.23
16 82.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 17.3% Kent (1000Genomes) @ 2.26
17 83% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 17% English (Dodecad) @ 2.26
18 73.9% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 26.1% Irish (Dodecad) @ 2.27
19 83% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 17% CEU30 (1000Genomes) @ 2.3
20 83.5% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 16.5% British_Isles (Dodecad) @ 2.32

This guy could have ancestry from other parts of Italy.

[Samnium]

This guy could have ancestry from other parts of Italy.

Not recent, these gedmatch are verified to be fully Sicilian. What might have played a role there it’s Norman era with repopulation with some Normans and mainly Northern Italians.

These are outliers, atleast from what we know of sicilian genetics but they exist also in the opposite way, close to Cyprus samples. But founding Central like samples isn’t that extraordinary, Southern Italy is a very diverse region and it’s normal to find people like that.

There isn’t an average southern italian tho, it’s non-existent.

[Samnium]

Samnium threads reminds me Sikeliot. It's not wrong. Just an observation.

Well if professional were doing good and accurate studies we wouldn't be reduced to make assumptions basing on Gedmatch results.

In the studies that involved Southern Italians, impossible to know the exact location of the samples so it's like making an average with North Lazio and South Lazio, it hasn't any sense.

[Lucas]

Well if professional were doing good and accurate studies we wouldn't be reduced to make assumptions basing on Gedmatch results.

In the studies that involved Southern Italians, impossible to know the exact location of the samples so it's like making an average with North Lazio and South Lazio, it hasn't any sense.

We have now academic samples for every administrative region in Italy, but yes not for subregional level yet. I doubt there will be any.

[Samnium]

We have now academic samples for every administrative region in Italy, but yes not for subregional level yet. I doubt there will be any.

I don't hope that much, I think we will have to wait further technological improvements.

The best thing is to test by himself relatives, geneticists don't make differences at a local/subregional level (even if they do with Sicily : Eastern and Western and as well with Emilia Romagna divided in Emilia and Romagna).

[Samnium]

We have now academic samples for every administrative region in Italy, but yes not for subregional level yet. I doubt there will be any.

I don't hope that much, I think we will have to wait further technological improvements.

The best thing is to test by himself relatives, geneticists don't make differences at a local/subregional level (even if they do with Sicily : Eastern and Western and as well with Emilia Romagna divided in Emilia and Romagna).

[Lucas]

I don't hope that much, I think we will have to wait further technological improvements.

The best thing is to test by himself relatives, geneticists don't make differences at a local/subregional level (even if they do with Sicily : Eastern and Western and as well with Emilia Romagna divided in Emilia and Romagna).

For Sicily we have samples from west and east (named as such). But also there are Trapani and Siracuse samples too. I think there are different but unfortunately also from east and west corners.

[Samnium]

For Sicily we have samples from west and east (named as such). But also there are Trapani and Siracuse samples too. I think there are different but unfortunately also from east and west corners.

I think even for a country like Italy the best thing is all testing by himself, it's a too much diverse country to have good studies that will be representative.

That's not the case with most of European countries that are after all pretty much homogenous compared to Italy.

Think that "amateur" guessed the difference between Islanders and Mainlanders Greeks before any geneticist.

[Voskos]

That's indeed an interesting thread.

[Samnium]

That's indeed an interesting thread.

If I have more results or ideas/discoveries I will post here, even if it's not clearly indicated that's a general thread for S.Italian genetics.

[SharpFork]

How do linguistics factor into this? For example the Sicilan-like dialects of Calabria and Puglia versus the more continental ones? Also what about the Gallo-Italic communities?

I think framing the issue in terms of linguistics would help explain the situation better than to reference Italic and ancient Greek populations.

For example there is even a Occitan enclave in Calabria, the fact those enclaves survived to this day hint that there must have been more before. I think the pattern of High Medieval and Early modern Slavic(Molise), Albanian, Greek, Norman-Lombard(French and North Italian) influences and movements would make more sense.

[Samnium]

How do linguistics factor into this? For example the Sicilan-like dialects of Calabria and Puglia versus the more continental ones? Also what about the Gallo-Italic communities?

I think linguistical "barriers" can be useful to a some extent but for Calabria they don't indicate that much.


I think framing the issue in terms of linguistics would help explain the situation better than to reference Italic and ancient Greek populations.

Don't think so, as I've said there's a limit to linguistical "separation", and there are variations that can't be deduced from linguistics. It can be useful used at a larger scale, and also something differentiated areas (where people speak a different dialect) indicate also isolation and therefore genetical differences


For example there is even a Occitan enclave in Calabria, the fact those enclaves survived to this day hint that there must have been more before. I think the pattern of High Medieval and Early modern Slavic(Molise), Albanian, Greek, Norman-Lombard(French and North Italian) influences and movements would make more sense.

Yes I think definitely that Normans have left influence in some areas, and maybe where isolation was stronger. I had found a result like that on Anthrogenica :

"Something that confirm my theory about people that could have retained NW influence, or maybe other influences (Italic etc). I've found this post on Anthrogenica :

"I am a T2c1a born in Calabria Southern Italy Living Dna indicates 10% autosomal dna is similar to British (East Anglia) My mother's family is exceptionally tall and blue eyed my maternal uncles were 6'4 plus and I have a cousin known locally as "il Gigante" who is 6' 8" My theory is that height (and the T2c1a) comes via the Normans. The first King of Sicily Roger D'hautville's capital city, Mileto, was 10 miles away."

So this is a confirmation that Northern influences can be retained surely, and it's the opposite as what people thought some years ago (Calabria as uniformly exotic).

I haven't tested my italian relatives but there's high prevalence of light eyes as well and also redheads, I've a first degree cousin that looks very Irish (green eyes, fair redhead, type I with freckles) and also others in Calabria (that I've seen only in pictures). So these light alleles could be a result from Norman era or Italic influence, actually the village of my grandparents is at 20km if Cosenza that was very important for Normans (they built even a castle in top of the city mountain) but also Visigoths came here (Alaric died in Cosenza).

I know about the occitan enclave, it's called "Guardia Piemontese", the community has disappeared but there are descendants of these amongst the population surely.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardia_Piemontese

There were also lot of crypto-jewish communities so it's a very "diverse" background, in Southern Calabria even more, loads of Byzantine Levantines, Caucasians, Anatolians, Armenians...

And I've not even talked about Greeks, I could say also lot of things.

[Leto]

I think linguistical "barriers" can be useful to a some extent but for Calabria they don't indicate that much.

Don't think so, as I've said there's a limit to linguistical "separation", and there are variations that can't be deduced from linguistics. It can be useful used at a larger scale, and also something differentiated areas (where people speak a different dialect) indicate also isolation and therefore genetical differences

Is Cosenza mostly Standard Italian-speaking now?

[Samnium]

Is Cosenza mostly Standard Italian-speaking now?

Yes pretty much.

Dialects are still used but you know "standardization" is well advanced. You almost don't find anymore people that can only speak the dialect.

[Leto]

Yes pretty much.

Dialects are still used but you know "standardization" is well advanced. You almost don't find anymore people that can only speak the dialect.
Is that true Standard Italian is most similar to Tuscan dialects?

[Adamastor]

I'm still waiting to see a GEDmatch from Calabria with Tuscan-like results or to see someone from South Italy (or Greece) without significant East_Med and West_Asian.

[Leto]

I'm still waiting to see a GEDmatch from Calabria with Tuscan-like results or to see someone from South Italy (or Greece) without significant East_Med and West_Asian.
There were Southern Italians with almost 20% North_European on Dodecad.

[Samnium]

I'm still waiting to see a GEDmatch from Calabria with Tuscan-like results or to see someone from South Italy (or Greece) without significant East_Med and West_Asian.

There were sicilians with Tuscan-like genetics and I've found also an apulian recently that clustered probably in Central Italy (very close to central Italian averages), and others that were close to that.

East Med would still likely be prevalent but I'm talking about northern components, not "East Med".


There were Southern Italians with almost 20% North_European on Dodecad.

Exactly. And in the reverse there are Southern Italians below 10% NE on Dodecad, it's a "cline" but I don't like this word, I would say that it heavily relies on personal family history and background.

Recently there were migrations from Mainland Greece and also Albania, from Renaissance to our days.

It's not an uniform land, that's what I want to say.

[Adamastor]

There were Southern Italians with almost 20% North_European on Dodecad.

Perhaps, but difference between a Tuscan and a South Italian is pronounced imo:

Tuscan

# Population Percent
1 West_Med 21.13
2 Atlantic 21.01
3 East_Med 19.46
4 West_Asian 12.3
5 North_Sea 8.84
6 Baltic 6.79
7 Eastern_Euro 5.73
8 Red_Sea 4.29
9 Oceanian 0.46


Calabrian

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 33.2
2 West_Med 18.2
3 West_Asian 16.30
4 Atlantic 12.13
5 North_Sea 8.36
6 Red_Sea 5.86
7 Baltic 4.01
8 Northeast_African 1.64
10 Oceanian 0.32

Puglia

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 26.88
2 West_Med 17.78
3 West_Asian 14.99
4 North_Sea 11.89
5 Atlantic 11.5
6 Baltic 9.45
7 Eastern_Euro 3.13
8 Red_Sea 2.51
9 Oceanian 1.39
10 Amerindian 0.49

The guy from Puglia has the same results as southern Greek mainland, but still significantly southern compared to Tuscans. Almost 45% East_Med + West_Asian + Red_Sea. The Calabrian has ~55% and the Tuscan ~36%.

[Samnium]

Perhaps, but difference between a Tuscan and a South Italian is pronounced imo:

Tuscan

# Population Percent
1 West_Med 21.13
2 Atlantic 21.01
3 East_Med 19.46
4 West_Asian 12.3
5 North_Sea 8.84
6 Baltic 6.79
7 Eastern_Euro 5.73
8 Red_Sea 4.29
9 Oceanian 0.46


Calabrian

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 33.2
2 West_Med 18.2
3 West_Asian 16.30
4 Atlantic 12.13
5 North_Sea 8.36
6 Red_Sea 5.86
7 Baltic 4.01
8 Northeast_African 1.64
10 Oceanian 0.32

Puglia

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 26.88
2 West_Med 17.78
3 West_Asian 14.99
4 North_Sea 11.89
5 Atlantic 11.5
6 Baltic 9.45
7 Eastern_Euro 3.13
8 Red_Sea 2.51
9 Oceanian 1.39
10 Amerindian 0.49

The guy from Puglia has the same results as southern Greek mainland, but still significantly southern compared to Tuscans. Almost 45% East_Med + West_Asian + Red_Sea. The Calabrian has ~55% and the Tuscan ~36%.

Tuscans have more West Med, a little bit more "Northern" components (but levels comparable around 33.5% for the apulian and 35.5% for the tuscan, Atlantic + North-Sea + Baltic, I haven't counted Eastern Euro in that).

So difference "pronounced" in the case of the apulian, not really, for the calabrian yes.

[Leto]

Perhaps, but difference between a Tuscan and a South Italian is pronounced imo:

Tuscan

# Population Percent
1 West_Med 21.13
2 Atlantic 21.01
3 East_Med 19.46
4 West_Asian 12.3
5 North_Sea 8.84
6 Baltic 6.79
7 Eastern_Euro 5.73
8 Red_Sea 4.29
9 Oceanian 0.46


Calabrian

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 33.2
2 West_Med 18.2
3 West_Asian 16.30
4 Atlantic 12.13
5 North_Sea 8.36
6 Red_Sea 5.86
7 Baltic 4.01
8 Northeast_African 1.64
10 Oceanian 0.32

Puglia

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 26.88
2 West_Med 17.78
3 West_Asian 14.99
4 North_Sea 11.89
5 Atlantic 11.5
6 Baltic 9.45
7 Eastern_Euro 3.13
8 Red_Sea 2.51
9 Oceanian 1.39
10 Amerindian 0.49

The guy from Puglia has the same results as southern Greek mainland, but still significantly southern compared to Tuscans. Almost 45% East_Med + West_Asian + Red_Sea. The Calabrian has ~55% and the Tuscan ~36%.
How much North_European and Atlantic_Med on Dodecad K12b?

[Adamastor]

How much North_European and Atlantic_Med on Dodecad K12b?

I don't know, I generally ignore these calculators. I only trust Eurogenes K13 and K15. All other GEDmatch calculators are worthless imo.

[Samnium]

I don't know, I generally ignore these calculators. I only trust Eurogenes K13 and K15. All other GEDmatch calculators are worthless imo.

With Dodecad you can see better the proportions. On k13 you have to make additions etc.

[Leto]

I don't collect Italian kits but I have these

Calabrian

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 35.89
2 Atlantic_Med 25.84
3 North_European 13.01
4 Southwest_Asian 12.03
5 Gedrosia 7.5
6 Northwest_African 4.45
7 Southeast_Asian 0.71
8 Sub_Saharan 0.58

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 4.95
2 Sicilian (Dodecad) 5.06
3 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 5.55
4 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 5.88
5 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 8.17
6 Greek (Dodecad) 9.02
7 C_Italian (Dodecad) 10.8
8 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 10.87
9 O_Italian (Dodecad) 13.68
10 Tuscan (HGDP) 14.88
11 TSI30 (Metspalu) 16.06
12 Cypriots (Behar) 16.26
13 Turkish (Dodecad) 17.51
14 Turks (Behar) 19.96
15 Lebanese (Behar) 20.03
16 N_Italian (Dodecad) 22.06
17 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 22.08
18 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 22.56
19 Syrians (Behar) 23.06
20 Druze (HGDP) 23.25

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 88.8% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 11.2% Lezgins (Behar) @ 2.55
2 87.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 12.3% Turkmens (Yunusbayev) @ 2.61
3 86.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 13.3% Kurd (Dodecad) @ 2.63
4 86.9% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 13.1% Iranian (Dodecad) @ 2.65
5 86.6% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 13.4% Kurds (Yunusbayev) @ 2.66
6 65.5% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 34.5% Lebanese (Behar) @ 2.7
7 87.5% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 12.5% Iranians (Behar) @ 2.71
8 90.2% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.8% Tajiks (Yunusbayev) @ 2.79
9 87.1% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 12.9% Kumyks (Yunusbayev) @ 2.81
10 73.2% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 26.8% Iranian_Jews (Behar) @ 3.01
11 74.2% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 25.8% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 3.03
12 89.9% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 10.1% Lezgins (Behar) @ 3.04
13 93.3% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 6.7% Brahui (HGDP) @ 3.05
14 89.4% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 10.6% Chechens (Yunusbayev) @ 3.06
15 75.6% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 24.4% Romanians (Behar) @ 3.09
16 92.8% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 7.2% Balochi (HGDP) @ 3.12
17 92.5% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 7.5% Makrani (HGDP) @ 3.14
18 63.4% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 36.6% Druze (HGDP) @ 3.18
19 88.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 11.8% Kumyks (Yunusbayev) @ 3.19
20 93.9% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 6.1% Brahui (HGDP) @ 3.19

Apulian

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 34.59
2 Atlantic_Med 26.04
3 North_European 16.89
4 Southwest_Asian 11.39
5 Gedrosia 7.57
6 Northwest_African 3.05
7 South_Asian 0.35
8 Southeast_Asian 0.12

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek (Dodecad) 6.39
2 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 6.58
3 Sicilian (Dodecad) 6.89
4 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 7.16
5 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 7.58
6 C_Italian (Dodecad) 9.25
7 O_Italian (Dodecad) 10.75
8 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 11.84
9 Tuscan (HGDP) 12.97
10 TSI30 (Metspalu) 14.1
11 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 14.32
12 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 18.27
13 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 18.81
14 Turkish (Dodecad) 18.87
15 Cypriots (Behar) 19.12
16 N_Italian (Dodecad) 19.6
17 Romanians (Behar) 19.82
18 North_Italian (HGDP) 21.26
19 Turks (Behar) 21.3
20 Lebanese (Behar) 22.56

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 67.1% Cypriots (Behar) + 32.9% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 1.89
2 69.8% Cypriots (Behar) + 30.2% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 1.94
3 70.3% Cypriots (Behar) + 29.7% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 1.96
4 68.8% Cypriots (Behar) + 31.2% CEU30 (1000Genomes) @ 1.99
5 68.1% Cypriots (Behar) + 31.9% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 2.01
6 68.8% Cypriots (Behar) + 31.2% English (Dodecad) @ 2.02
7 70.2% Cypriots (Behar) + 29.8% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 2.03
8 68.5% Cypriots (Behar) + 31.5% Kent (1000Genomes) @ 2.09
9 70.1% Cypriots (Behar) + 29.9% Irish (Dodecad) @ 2.09
10 69.5% Cypriots (Behar) + 30.5% British_Isles (Dodecad) @ 2.18
11 69.4% Cypriots (Behar) + 30.6% British (Dodecad) @ 2.31
12 69.1% Cypriots (Behar) + 30.9% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 2.38
13 71.2% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 28.8% Druze (HGDP) @ 2.52
14 73.2% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 26.8% Georgia_Jews (Behar) @ 2.61
15 74.7% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 25.3% Iranian_Jews (Behar) @ 2.73
16 73.8% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 26.2% Iraq_Jews (Behar) @ 2.84
17 68.4% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 31.6% Lebanese (Behar) @ 2.92
18 63.1% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 36.9% Romanians (Behar) @ 3
19 61.1% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 38.9% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 3.02
20 71.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 28.1% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 3.03

[Leto]

With Dodecad you can see better the proportions. On k13 you have to make additions etc.
Yes, I still rely on the Dodecad components in many cases. I know they aren't perfect but I can see patterns and know how to interpret them.

[Samnium]

Yes, I still rely on the Dodecad components in many cases. I know they aren't perfect but I can see patterns and know how to interpret them.

Exactly. The better would be G25 but Dodecad is fine, it makes a more "compact" model with less components useless and that are blurry (like Eastern_Euro or Red_Sea).

[Leto]

Exactly. The better would be G25 but Dodecad is fine, it make a more "compact" model with less components useless and that are blurry (like Eastern_Euro or Red_Sea).
People like Adamstor bash Gedmatch in every other thread. Okay, give us such a huge database for G25 and I will probably cease to use GM but that's nowhere near in sight. On Gedmatch I still can access hundreds of kits while on G25 we only have a dozen of samples for each country.
Pretty much meaningless snobbery.

[Leto]

By the way, K15 is notoriously inaccurate for many. Often very big distances.

[Samnium]

People like Adamstor bash Gedmatch in every other thread. Okay, give us such a huge database for G25 and I will probably cease to use GM but that's nowhere near in sight. On Gedmatch I still can access hundreds of kits while on G25 we only have a dozen of samples for each country.
Pretty much meaningless snobbery.

Yes the thing is that there are areas really understudied, usually at the fringes of Europe, like very Northern or Eastern groups, Southern Italians also to some extent, I've never seen a gedmatch from Molise (or only one I believe), same for Cosenza, I might have seen 2 or 3 gedmatch no more.

French also IMO.

Gedmatch has hundreds of thousands of users, it's the best "thing" until this day.

Not everybody want to pay 12 dollars for having G25 coordinates by the way.

[Leto]

Yes the thing is that there are areas really understudied, usually at the fringes of Europe, like very Northern or Eastern groups, Southern Italians also to some extent, I've never seen a gedmatch from Molise (or only one I believe), same for Cosenza, I might have seen 2 or 3 gedmatch no more.

French also IMO.

Gedmatch has hundreds of thousands of users, it's the best "thing" until this day.

Not everybody want to pay 12 dollars for having G25 coordinates by the way.
Correct. GM is free and been around for almost a decade. G25 costs money and you need to contact the developer and send him both money and data. So I doubt it's gonna be as popular as GM, although many people have hysterically deleted their data since December 2019. Yet they all trust MyHeritage, 23andme and all the rest... :rolleyes:

[Vid Flumina]

Yes the thing is that there are areas really understudied, usually at the fringes of Europe, like very Northern or Eastern groups, Southern Italians also to some extent, I've never seen a gedmatch from Molise (or only one I believe), same for Cosenza, I might have seen 2 or 3 gedmatch no more.


Cosenza was covered in Sazzini et al. study from 2016, clustering IIRC with Agrigento and Lecce.

[SharpFork]

The Tuscan like sample from Sicily surely must be from a Gallo-Italic enclave(even if not Gallo-Italic speaking?) if it's not recent ancestry.

[Nomansman]

If youre interested, i can send you lots of italian kits(both northern and southern). But im not sure if you have them yourself though

[Samnium]

The Tuscan like sample from Sicily surely must be from a Gallo-Italic enclave(even if not Gallo-Italic speaking?) if it's not recent ancestry.

Norman/N.Italian influences, surely. It's likely recent (not older than Middle-Ages). The Tuscan-like sample was from Trapani which indeed had a repopulation in Norman era.


If youre interested, i can send you lots of italian kits(both northern and southern). But im not sure if you have them yourself though

I think I have most of them but you can still.

[SharpFork]

Don't think so, as I've said there's a limit to linguistical "separation", and there are variations that can't be deduced from linguistics. It can be useful used at a larger scale, and also something differentiated areas (where people speak a different dialect) indicate also isolation and therefore genetical differences
But surely all those latter factors would be more relevant than pre-Roman patterns? We saw how much Lazio was affected by the Roman period, I can hardly imagine how southern Italy changed through internal migration and slavery.

[Samnium]

Cosenza was covered in Sazzini et al. study from 2016, clustering IIRC with Agrigento and Lecce.

Yes but IMO I don't find that study consistent, it's the PCA where you see outliers that haven't been sorted etc. But yes I've seen that they do cluster with Agrigento/Lecce people on that study.

[Samnium]

But surely all those latter factors would be more relevant than pre-Roman patterns? We saw how much Lazio was affected by the Roman period, I can hardly imagine how southern Italy changed through internal migration and slavery.

Yes there have been surely influence (though Slavery has a near 0 genetical impact on the populations) from the Roman period and later groups that came here surely (Longobards, Byzantines etc.).

Original population of Southern Italy was probably Sardinian-like. Like the Neolithic samples in the Moots study.

[Leto]

I don't collect Italian kits but I have these

Calabrian

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 35.89
2 Atlantic_Med 25.84
3 North_European 13.01
4 Southwest_Asian 12.03
5 Gedrosia 7.5
6 Northwest_African 4.45
7 Southeast_Asian 0.71
8 Sub_Saharan 0.58

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 4.95
2 Sicilian (Dodecad) 5.06
3 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 5.55
4 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 5.88
5 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 8.17
6 Greek (Dodecad) 9.02
7 C_Italian (Dodecad) 10.8
8 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 10.87
9 O_Italian (Dodecad) 13.68
10 Tuscan (HGDP) 14.88
11 TSI30 (Metspalu) 16.06
12 Cypriots (Behar) 16.26
13 Turkish (Dodecad) 17.51
14 Turks (Behar) 19.96
15 Lebanese (Behar) 20.03
16 N_Italian (Dodecad) 22.06
17 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 22.08
18 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 22.56
19 Syrians (Behar) 23.06
20 Druze (HGDP) 23.25

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 88.8% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 11.2% Lezgins (Behar) @ 2.55
2 87.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 12.3% Turkmens (Yunusbayev) @ 2.61
3 86.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 13.3% Kurd (Dodecad) @ 2.63
4 86.9% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 13.1% Iranian (Dodecad) @ 2.65
5 86.6% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 13.4% Kurds (Yunusbayev) @ 2.66
6 65.5% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 34.5% Lebanese (Behar) @ 2.7
7 87.5% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 12.5% Iranians (Behar) @ 2.71
8 90.2% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 9.8% Tajiks (Yunusbayev) @ 2.79
9 87.1% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 12.9% Kumyks (Yunusbayev) @ 2.81
10 73.2% C_Italian (Dodecad) + 26.8% Iranian_Jews (Behar) @ 3.01
11 74.2% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 25.8% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 3.03
12 89.9% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 10.1% Lezgins (Behar) @ 3.04
13 93.3% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 6.7% Brahui (HGDP) @ 3.05
14 89.4% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 10.6% Chechens (Yunusbayev) @ 3.06
15 75.6% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 24.4% Romanians (Behar) @ 3.09
16 92.8% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 7.2% Balochi (HGDP) @ 3.12
17 92.5% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 7.5% Makrani (HGDP) @ 3.14
18 63.4% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 36.6% Druze (HGDP) @ 3.18
19 88.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 11.8% Kumyks (Yunusbayev) @ 3.19
20 93.9% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 6.1% Brahui (HGDP) @ 3.19

Apulian

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 34.59
2 Atlantic_Med 26.04
3 North_European 16.89
4 Southwest_Asian 11.39
5 Gedrosia 7.57
6 Northwest_African 3.05
7 South_Asian 0.35
8 Southeast_Asian 0.12

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek (Dodecad) 6.39
2 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 6.58
3 Sicilian (Dodecad) 6.89
4 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 7.16
5 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 7.58
6 C_Italian (Dodecad) 9.25
7 O_Italian (Dodecad) 10.75
8 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 11.84
9 Tuscan (HGDP) 12.97
10 TSI30 (Metspalu) 14.1
11 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 14.32
12 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 18.27
13 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 18.81
14 Turkish (Dodecad) 18.87
15 Cypriots (Behar) 19.12
16 N_Italian (Dodecad) 19.6
17 Romanians (Behar) 19.82
18 North_Italian (HGDP) 21.26
19 Turks (Behar) 21.3
20 Lebanese (Behar) 22.56

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 67.1% Cypriots (Behar) + 32.9% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 1.89
2 69.8% Cypriots (Behar) + 30.2% Argyll (1000Genomes) @ 1.94
3 70.3% Cypriots (Behar) + 29.7% Orkney (1000Genomes) @ 1.96
4 68.8% Cypriots (Behar) + 31.2% CEU30 (1000Genomes) @ 1.99
5 68.1% Cypriots (Behar) + 31.9% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 2.01
6 68.8% Cypriots (Behar) + 31.2% English (Dodecad) @ 2.02
7 70.2% Cypriots (Behar) + 29.8% Orcadian (HGDP) @ 2.03
8 68.5% Cypriots (Behar) + 31.5% Kent (1000Genomes) @ 2.09
9 70.1% Cypriots (Behar) + 29.9% Irish (Dodecad) @ 2.09
10 69.5% Cypriots (Behar) + 30.5% British_Isles (Dodecad) @ 2.18
11 69.4% Cypriots (Behar) + 30.6% British (Dodecad) @ 2.31
12 69.1% Cypriots (Behar) + 30.9% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 2.38
13 71.2% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 28.8% Druze (HGDP) @ 2.52
14 73.2% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 26.8% Georgia_Jews (Behar) @ 2.61
15 74.7% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 25.3% Iranian_Jews (Behar) @ 2.73
16 73.8% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 26.2% Iraq_Jews (Behar) @ 2.84
17 68.4% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 31.6% Lebanese (Behar) @ 2.92
18 63.1% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 36.9% Romanians (Behar) @ 3
19 61.1% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 38.9% Bulgarian (Dodecad) @ 3.02
20 71.9% Cypriots (Behar) + 28.1% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 3.03
The Italian I posted from Marche is almost Southern. I think people like him can be found in proper Southern Italy

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 32.21
2 Atlantic_Med 29.99
3 North_European 18.84
4 Southwest_Asian 9.97
5 Gedrosia 5.64
6 Northwest_African 2.15
7 East_African 0.53
8 East_Asian 0.33
9 Siberian 0.26
10 Southeast_Asian 0.09

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 C_Italian (Dodecad) 5.05
2 Greek (Dodecad) 5.76
3 O_Italian (Dodecad) 5.97
4 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 7.9
5 Sicilian (Dodecad) 7.94
6 Tuscan (HGDP) 8.27
7 TSI30 (Metspalu) 9.28
8 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 10.15
9 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 10.16
10 N_Italian (Dodecad) 14.73
11 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 14.93
12 North_Italian (HGDP) 16.34
13 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 16.46
14 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 16.6
15 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 16.7
16 Romanians (Behar) 17.64
17 Cypriots (Behar) 23.14
18 Turkish (Dodecad) 23.4
19 Baleares (1000Genomes) 24.98
20 Turks (Behar) 25.95

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 81.5% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 18.5% German (Dodecad) @ 1.11
2 80.1% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 19.9% Hungarians (Behar) @ 1.14
3 63.3% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 36.7% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) @ 1.19
4 85.3% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 14.7% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 1.35
5 63.4% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 36.6% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) @ 1.41
6 81.6% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 18.4% German (Dodecad) @ 1.56
7 84.2% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 15.8% Druze (HGDP) @ 1.61
8 85.3% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 14.7% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 1.64
9 80.1% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 19.9% Cypriots (Behar) @ 1.72
10 80.2% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 19.8% Hungarians (Behar) @ 1.72
11 85.4% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 14.6% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 1.76
12 86.3% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 13.7% Samaritians (Behar) @ 1.83
13 85.4% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 14.6% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 2
14 85.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 14.2% Polish (Dodecad) @ 2.08
15 57.1% Cypriots (Behar) + 42.9% French (HGDP) @ 2.11
16 75.6% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 24.4% French (HGDP) @ 2.14
17 79.5% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 20.5% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 2.21
18 83.1% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 16.9% Lebanese (Behar) @ 2.23
19 82.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 17.8% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 2.25
20 83% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 17% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 2.26

[SharpFork]

Yes there have been surely influence (though Slavery has a near 0 genetical impact on the populations) from the Roman period and later groups that came here surely (Longobards, Byzantines etc.).

Original population of Southern Italy was probably Sardinian-like. Like the Neolithic samples in the Moots study.
Why would have slavery had 0 impact? Primary sources clearly indicate that there were many slaves from outside the Italian peninsular, displacement of the proletari and poorer people that flocked some cities and the army, slave rebellions.

Original relative to what? I imagine in the iron age they would have looked like a mix between Latin/Etruscans, Sardinians and Greeks but I think they would have tended to look like Latins with a more ENF and a bit more Iran Neolithic.

[Samnium]

Why would have slavery had 0 impact? Primary sources clearly indicate that there were many slaves from outside the Italian peninsular, displacement of the proletari and poorer people that flocked some cities and the army, slave rebellions.

Original relative to what? I imagine in the iron age they would have looked like a mix between Latin/Etruscans, Sardinians and Greeks but I think they would have tended to look like Latins with a more ENF and a bit more Iran Neolithic.

Bell Beaker Sicilian was Sardinian-like. There were another study that said that the original population of Southern Italy was probably Sardinian-like. But I agree that in the Antiquity Southern Italy had lot of Italics that were probably similar to Latins.

Slave barely had "childrens" so their genetical impact is restricted. They had much less impact than the Near Easterners merchants/workers than came in roman cities.

[Samnium]

The Italian I posted from Marche is almost Southern. I think people like him can be found in proper Southern Italy

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus 32.21
2 Atlantic_Med 29.99
3 North_European 18.84
4 Southwest_Asian 9.97
5 Gedrosia 5.64
6 Northwest_African 2.15
7 East_African 0.53
8 East_Asian 0.33
9 Siberian 0.26
10 Southeast_Asian 0.09

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 C_Italian (Dodecad) 5.05
2 Greek (Dodecad) 5.76
3 O_Italian (Dodecad) 5.97
4 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 7.9
5 Sicilian (Dodecad) 7.94
6 Tuscan (HGDP) 8.27
7 TSI30 (Metspalu) 9.28
8 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 10.15
9 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 10.16
10 N_Italian (Dodecad) 14.73
11 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 14.93
12 North_Italian (HGDP) 16.34
13 Bulgarian (Dodecad) 16.46
14 Bulgarians (Yunusbayev) 16.6
15 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 16.7
16 Romanians (Behar) 17.64
17 Cypriots (Behar) 23.14
18 Turkish (Dodecad) 23.4
19 Baleares (1000Genomes) 24.98
20 Turks (Behar) 25.95

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 81.5% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 18.5% German (Dodecad) @ 1.11
2 80.1% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 19.9% Hungarians (Behar) @ 1.14
3 63.3% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 36.7% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) @ 1.19
4 85.3% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 14.7% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 1.35
5 63.4% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 36.6% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) @ 1.41
6 81.6% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 18.4% German (Dodecad) @ 1.56
7 84.2% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 15.8% Druze (HGDP) @ 1.61
8 85.3% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 14.7% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 1.64
9 80.1% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 19.9% Cypriots (Behar) @ 1.72
10 80.2% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 19.8% Hungarians (Behar) @ 1.72
11 85.4% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 14.6% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 1.76
12 86.3% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 13.7% Samaritians (Behar) @ 1.83
13 85.4% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 14.6% Norwegian (Dodecad) @ 2
14 85.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 14.2% Polish (Dodecad) @ 2.08
15 57.1% Cypriots (Behar) + 42.9% French (HGDP) @ 2.11
16 75.6% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 24.4% French (HGDP) @ 2.14
17 79.5% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 20.5% Cornwall (1000Genomes) @ 2.21
18 83.1% O_Italian (Dodecad) + 16.9% Lebanese (Behar) @ 2.23
19 82.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 17.8% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 2.25
20 83% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 17% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 2.26

Yes definitely. But some people assumed that all Southern Italy match with Ashkenazim ...

[SharpFork]

Bell Beaker Sicilian was Sardinian-like. There were another study that said that the original population of Southern Italy was probably Sardinian-like. But I agree that in the Antiquity Southern Italy had lot of Italics that were probably similar to Latins.

Slave barely had "childrens" so their genetical impact is restricted. They had much less impact than the Near Easterners merchants/workers than came in roman cities.
Slaves had children even if they had may have had less reproductive capacity than free Romans, this is especially so considering the existence of manumission, rich urban slaves, male slave owners having children with female slaves. I personally don't think internal migration can explain the entire shift, I can't say how much slavery was a factor but the primary sources seem to paint such a picture to me and it connects the genetic shift with the Roman expansion quite well, although it's not the whole story otherwise we might presume the Gaulish,Germanic and Iberian slaves would have acted as a counterweight.

[Leto]

Yes definitely. But some people assumed that all Southern Italy match with Ashkenazim ...
Definitely not as even Abruzzo is considered part of Southern Italy.

[Samnium]

Definitely not as even Abruzzo is considered part of Southern Italy.

There's lot of variation that's what I constantly repeat.

Of course you would never see a southern italian clustering more northern than Central Italy unless he's mixed.

[Tauromachos]

This is what i have roughly and intuitivly without these results as evidence kept been saying from the beginning
but many people found it hard to accept and believe in particular one former admin of this site

[Samnium]

This is what i have roughly and intuitivly without these results as evidence kept been saying from the beginning
but many people found it hard to accept and believe in particular one former admin of this site

All Southern Italians even the most "outlying" (that match with Cypriots etc.) have greek ancestry to some extent. Most of these people can be modeled very well with Mycenean admixture.

These results provide evidence of recent movements between Greece and Southern Italy : Epirus, Peloponnese, Ionian Islands as recent ancestor is quite telling.

I feel I've surely some recent greek ancestors as well having roots from both Apulia and Cosenza.

[Tauromachos]

All Southern Italians even the most "outlying" (that match with Cypriots etc.) have greek ancestry to some extent. Most of these people can be modeled very well with Mycenean admixture.

Exactly



These results provide evidence of recent movements between Greece and Southern Italy : Epirus, Peloponnese, Ionian Islands as recent ancestor is quite telling.

I feel I've surely some recent greek ancestors as well having roots from both Apulia and Cosenza.

Its significant however because any connection between Mainland Greece and some particular parts of Southern Italy i mean Calabria
has been rigorously denied in the past only the Cypriot and South Aegean Islands connection has been afirmed and represented as if
it was more because of common Levantine ancestry between Cypriots/South Aegean and Calabrians

[Samnium]

Its significant however because any connection between Mainland Greece and some particular parts of Southern Italy i mean Calabria
has been rigorously denied in the past only the Cypriot and South Aegean Islands connection has been afirmed and represented as if
it was more because of common Levantine ancestry between Cypriots/South Aegean and Calabrians

Yes of course. These results are important because people assumed that Calabrians were all very dark/exotic/southern-shifted whatever whereas it's not true. They've taken some parts of Calabria like Reggio Calabria and then make it an average.

Of course these persons don't know anything about Calabria, whether it's history, phenotype, genetics...

It's a very mysterious region in the sense that nobody go there for holidays (I exagerate but much less than Sicily) and the land is very rugged especially in the north of the region so people don't really know that much about that.

[sailormoon]

1/2 Abruzzo 1/2 Cosenza Calabria
Italian 49.2%
Greek & Balkan 20.3%
Spanish & Portuguese 1.7%
Broadly Southern European 10.0%
British & Irish 0.2%
Broadly Northwestern European 0.1%
Broadly European 0.6%
Anatolian 2.5%
Cypriot 2.5%
Broadly Northern West Asian 4.0%
Arab, Egyptian & Levantine 1.0%
Broadly Arab, Egyptian & Levantine 1.0%
North African 0.1%
Broadly Western Asian & North African 6.0%
East Asian 0.1%
Unassigned 1.8%


The possible explanation for their 20.3% Greek ancestry is the presence of an ethnic Greek community in Calabria. The Greek settlements were founded in the region during the Classical period. The Ancient Greeks colonized southern Italy beginning in the 8th century BC and the region was called Magna Graecia.




The Griko people (Greek: Γκρίκο), also known as Grecanici in Calabria,[4][5][6][7][8][9] are an ethnic Greek community of Southern Italy.[10][11][12][13] They are found principally in regions of Calabria (Province of Reggio Calabria) and Apulia (peninsula of Salento).[14] The Griko are believed to be remnants of the once large Ancient[13] and Medieval Greek communities of southern Italy (the old Magna Graecia region), although there is dispute among scholars as to whether the Griko community is directly descended from Ancient Greeks or from more recent medieval migrations during the Byzantine domination.[15] Greek people have been living in Southern Italy for millennia, initially arriving in Southern Italy in numerous waves of migrations, from the ancient Greek colonisation of Southern Italy and Sicily in the 8th century BC through to the Byzantine Greek migrations of the 15th century caused by the Ottoman conquest. In the Middle Ages Greek, regional communities were reduced to isolated enclaves. Although most Greek inhabitants of Southern Italy have become entirely Italianized over the centuries,[16] the Griko community has been able to preserve their original Greek identity, heritage, language and distinct culture,[12][14] although exposure to mass media has progressively eroded their culture and language.[17]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griko_people

[Grace O'Malley]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/490553013124202496/632944290938617897/unknown.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/490553013124202496/632943678658183219/unknown.png

These maps are not totally true because Sicily has likely very low italic/celtic related haplogroups.

The first map just looks like a map of R1b not broken down into subclades and the 2nd map is of R1b-U152.

This is a more updated map showing R1b in Europe.

https://i.imgur.com/p01rSss.png

[Samnium]

The first map just looks like a map of R1b not broken down into subclades and the 2nd map is of R1b-U152.

This is a more updated map showing R1b in Europe.

https://i.imgur.com/p01rSss.png

Yes I used R1b-U152 because it's related to Italics, and a higher distribution in this area where Bruttians lived (Lucanians/Sicels and also additional Samnite tribes) is not surprising definitely.

Cosentia alone had loads of Italic people, and also in the countryside.

[Grace O'Malley]

Yes I used R1b-U152 because it's related to Italics, and a higher distribution in this area where Bruttians lived (Lucanians/Sicels and also additional Samnite tribes) is not surprising definitely.

Cosentia alone had loads of Italic people, and also in the countryside.

Yes I can understand that but the first map being labelled Italo-Celtic is not a very accurate description of R1b but I'm aware you didn't name it that. This is what I wanted to highlight.

[Samnium]

The possible explanation for their 20.3% Greek ancestry is the presence of an ethnic Greek community in Calabria. The Greek settlements were founded in the region during the Classical period. The Ancient Greeks colonized southern Italy beginning in the 8th century BC and the region was called Magna Graecia.

I don't think that this percentage is reflecting ancient greek admixture but rather recent.

As I've said there have been recent movements from Greece to Southern Italy + if you add Arbereshe you can have easily results like that.