tsne plot of modern Europeans with medieval samples and users

[ph2ter]

Detailed view:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9pjdpjt10zc427i/DetailedWithMedieval.png?dl=0

Overview:
https://i.imgur.com/dHA7gIA.png

[andre]

Nice! I’m east shifted?

[Bessarion]

It seems like some "nicely" clustered plot, apart from others.

[Xz2k9]

Can you also add me ?

[J. Ketch]

Detailed view:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9pjdpjt10zc427i/DetailedWithMedieval.png?dl=0

Overview:
https://i.imgur.com/dHA7gIA.png
These clusters are the only thing that really matters. Trying to cleanly divide people more deeply than this (by nationality) is a fools errand.

Do you agree?

[Lucas]

Slowian_father near my position is Polish user?

[Jana]

Closest user to me is again Dorkymon, who is NE Romanian/Moldovan. Interesting.

[ph2ter]

These clusters are the only thing that really matters. Trying to cleanly divide people more deeply than this (by nationality) is a fools errand.

Do you agree?

I agree. Most Europeans couldn't be grouped more than this.
This plot looks to me the best so far.

[ph2ter]

Slowian_father near my position is Polish user?

I suppose. Don't remember.

[ph2ter]

Can you also add me ?

Maybe after more users ask the same. Tsne algorithm is stochastic and every run gives different result.

[ph2ter]

Nice! I’m east shifted?
Not necessarily. Tsne likes to rotate and mirror the clusters at its will...

[Lemgrant]

Detailed view:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/9pjdpjt10zc427i/DetailedWithMedieval.png?dl=0



Interesting and unusual

[Rgvgjhvv]

This is great work! Except my plot is definitely wrong. I'm posted beside Freerostah and we aren't nearly that genetically close. Maybe you just labeled it incorrectly.

[Lemgrant]

This is great work! Except my plot is definitely wrong. I'm posted beside Freerostah and we aren't nearly that genetically close. Maybe you just labeled it incorrectly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-distributed_stochastic_neighbor_embedding


T-distributed Stochastic Neighbor Embedding (t-SNE) is a machine learning algorithm for visualization developed by Laurens van der Maaten and Geoffrey Hinton.[1] It is a nonlinear dimensionality reduction technique well-suited for embedding high-dimensional data for visualization in a low-dimensional space of two or three dimensions. Specifically, it models each high-dimensional object by a two- or three-dimensional point in such a way that similar objects are modeled by nearby points and dissimilar objects are modeled by distant points with high probability.


Freeroostah and you are Greek.

[Rgvgjhvv]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-distributed_stochastic_neighbor_embedding




Freeroostah and you are Greek.

Yes we are! I thought I saw some other Greeks on there too though. The relation of where I plot also to the general ethnic groups nearby are also way off.

[Lemgrant]

Yes we are! I thought I saw some other Greeks on there too though. The relation of where I plot also to the general ethnic groups nearby are also way off.

although you are shifted towards us, you are still part of the Greek & Albanian cluster. Look at the color of the dots (violet). Dibran and Vushaj are Albanians.

[ph2ter]

Yes we are! I thought I saw some other Greeks on there too though. The relation of where I plot also to the general ethnic groups nearby are also way off.

You are together with some Greeks and Albanians:

https://i.imgur.com/7tm4AtX.png

[MagnusDark]

Not necessarily...............

Why am I(Dibran) floating off North-Westish. Who am I closest too?

[Rgvgjhvv]

You are together with some Greeks and Albanians:

https://i.imgur.com/7tm4AtX.png

I'm just VERY confused with the plot haha. Hard to understand

[ph2ter]

Why am I(Dibran) floating off North-Westish. Who am I closest too?

Look the plot above. You are together with Albanians.

[MagnusDark]

Look the plot above. You are together with Albanians.

Ah, so they correspond to the purple dots. Just noticed that. Thank you.

[Lemgrant]

You are together with some Greeks and Albanians:

https://i.imgur.com/7tm4AtX.png

if they cluster together with Albanian:AL82, then this means that they are partly Slavic/Baltic.

https://i.imgur.com/EVLrEbl.png

https://i.imgur.com/9Q3PLI6.png

[Ljubic]

Maybe after more users ask the same. Tsne algorithm is stochastic and every run gives different result.

Id be for it too.

[dududud]

Add me

,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
ThomasL_scaled,0.126344,0.14319,0.044877,-0.001938,0.048624,0.000279,0.00329,0.006231,0.0081 81,0.029522,-0.003573,0.006594,-0.020515,-0.005092,0.004207,-0.014585,-0.010561,0.002407,0.003897,-0.007629,0.000749,-0.001855,-0.002465,0.00482,0.000958

,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
ThomasL,0.0111,0.0141,0.0119,-0.0006,0.0158,0.0001,0.0014,0.0027,0.004,0.0162,-0.0022,0.0044,-0.0138,-0.0037,0.0031,-0.011,-0.0081,0.0019,0.0031,-0.0061,0.0006,-0.0015,-0.002,0.004,0.0008

[1] "distance%=4.7208"

ThomasL_scaled

[Lemgrant]

Slowian_father near my position is Polish user?

you are Baltic shifted Pole

[Jana]

https://i.imgur.com/7tm4AtX.png

Wow, Stears is clustering with Hungarian average, that's nice :thumb001:

[ph2ter]

Add me

,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
ThomasL_scaled,0.126344,0.14319,0.044877,-0.001938,0.048624,0.000279,0.00329,0.006231,0.0081 81,0.029522,-0.003573,0.006594,-0.020515,-0.005092,0.004207,-0.014585,-0.010561,0.002407,0.003897,-0.007629,0.000749,-0.001855,-0.002465,0.00482,0.000958

,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
ThomasL,0.0111,0.0141,0.0119,-0.0006,0.0158,0.0001,0.0014,0.0027,0.004,0.0162,-0.0022,0.0044,-0.0138,-0.0037,0.0031,-0.011,-0.0081,0.0019,0.0031,-0.0061,0.0006,-0.0015,-0.002,0.004,0.0008

[1] "distance%=4.7208"

ThomasL_scaled

Aren't you PB? If yes, then you are already on the plot.

[ph2ter]

Id be for it too.

In this run the plot is little different:
https://i.imgur.com/XhvdtDq.png

[Kaspias]

I couldn't see myself as always, i'm sorry if i'm already there


Kaspias_scaled,0.103579,0.08632,0.013199,-0.010982,-0.002462,-0.009761,0.00094,0.005077,-0.006136,0.000911,0.000162,-0.000749,0.002379,-0.005505,-0.012486,0.013524,0.015255,0.00152,0.007668,0.0043 77,-0.004866,-0.000247,0,0.010001,-0.002155

Kaspias,0.0091,0.0085,0.0035,-0.0034,-0.0008,-0.0035,0.0004,0.0022,-0.003,0.0005,0.0001,-0.0005,0.0016,-0.004,-0.0092,0.0102,0.0117,0.0012,0.0061,0.0035,-0.0039,-0.0002,0,0.0083,-0.0018

[ph2ter]

I couldn't see myself as always, i'm sorry if i'm already there


Kaspias_scaled,0.103579,0.08632,0.013199,-0.010982,-0.002462,-0.009761,0.00094,0.005077,-0.006136,0.000911,0.000162,-0.000749,0.002379,-0.005505,-0.012486,0.013524,0.015255,0.00152,0.007668,0.0043 77,-0.004866,-0.000247,0,0.010001,-0.002155

Kaspias,0.0091,0.0085,0.0035,-0.0034,-0.0008,-0.0035,0.0004,0.0022,-0.003,0.0005,0.0001,-0.0005,0.0016,-0.004,-0.0092,0.0102,0.0117,0.0012,0.0061,0.0035,-0.0039,-0.0002,0,0.0083,-0.0018



You are already on the plot.

[Impaler]

I am always plotting on the Turkish_Balkan.

[ixulescu]

I am always plotting on the Turkish_Balkan.

Because Balkan Turks cluster with the Balkanites.

[Impaler]

Because Balkan Turks cluster with the Balkanites.

Yes, but I am the only Romanian here on the Balkan Turkish plot. I am near Thracian and Kaspias.

[ixulescu]

Yes, but I am the only Romanian here on the Balkan Turkish plot. I am near Thracian and Kaspias.

That's probably your Greek side pulling that way.

[dududud]

Aren't you PB? If yes, then you are already on the plot.

Oh yeah, sorry.

Edit: PB is my mother, i think?

Try again with my global 25 data, i want to be sure.

[ph2ter]

Oh yeah, sorry.

Edit: PB is my mother, i think?

Try again with my global 25 data, i want to be sure.

ThomasL and PB are identical.

[dududud]

ThomasL and PB are identical.

Thanks.


Weird, so i'm close to Provençal in one PCA, but not on this PCA?

[Lemgrant]

Thanks.


Weird, so i'm close to Provençal in one PCA, but not on this PCA?

This is not pca, it is t-sne. Google it.

[Lemgrant]

for comparison: Eurogenes K13 t-SNE plot made by me in RStudio

(8000 x 3138 pixels)
http://img28117.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc762/666824386_Rplot166_122_762lo.jpg
http://img28117.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc762/666824386_Rplot166_122_762lo.jpg

[Coastal Elite]

I believe everyone deserves citizenship to their closest plotting country on this PCA. It's only fair.

[Nurzat]

is this based on K15 or K13? my results below if you can add me. thanks.


Eurogenes K15, highest to lowest

20.54% Baltic
16.41% North_Sea
16.38% Atlantic
15.30% Eastern_Euro
10.84% West_Med
8.76% West_Asian
8.89% East_Med
0.81% South_Asian
0.78% Southeast_Asian
0.59% Siberian
0.46% Amerindian
0.18% Sub_Saharan
0.06% Red_Sea
0.00% Oceanian
0.00% Northeast_African


Eurogenes K13, highest to lowest:

30.93% Baltic
25.10% North_Atlantic
16.34% West_Med
11.35% East_Med
10.95% West_Asian
1.30% Siberian
1.20% South_Asian
1.01% East_Asian
0.74% Amerindian
0.64% Oceanian
0.36% Sub_Saharan
0.08% Red_Sea
0.00% Northeast_African

[Lemgrant]

is this based on K15 or K13? my results below if you can add me. thanks.


Eurogenes K15, highest to lowest

20.54% Baltic
16.41% North_Sea
16.38% Atlantic
15.30% Eastern_Euro
10.84% West_Med
8.76% West_Asian
8.89% East_Med
0.81% South_Asian
0.78% Southeast_Asian
0.59% Siberian
0.46% Amerindian
0.18% Sub_Saharan
0.06% Red_Sea
0.00% Oceanian
0.00% Northeast_African


Eurogenes K13, highest to lowest:

30.93% Baltic
25.10% North_Atlantic
16.34% West_Med
11.35% East_Med
10.95% West_Asian
1.30% Siberian
1.20% South_Asian
1.01% East_Asian
0.74% Amerindian
0.64% Oceanian
0.36% Sub_Saharan
0.08% Red_Sea
0.00% Northeast_African
No, ph2ter used global 25 coordinates

[Lemgrant]

for comparison: Eurogenes K13 t-SNE plot made by me in RStudio

(8000 x 3138 pixels)
http://img28117.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc762/666824386_Rplot166_122_762lo.jpg
http://img28117.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc762/666824386_Rplot166_122_762lo.jpg

+ another one with many more samples and users

(8000 x 3138 pixels)
http://img28117.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc646/727808452_Rplot174_122_646lo.jpg
http://img28117.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc646/727808452_Rplot174_122_646lo.jpg

[ph2ter]

K36 Tsne:
https://i.imgur.com/Y9jeuzp.png

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yee2248ok2guwyz/K36Tsne.png?dl=0

[Jana]

K36 Tsne:
https://i.imgur.com/Y9jeuzp.png

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yee2248ok2guwyz/K36Tsne.png?dl=0

K36 sucks horribly. I am nowhere close to Serbs, and here it shows me clustering with ''West Serbians''
Yeah right.

[Jana]

+ another one with many more samples and users

(8000 x 3138 pixels)
http://img28117.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc646/727808452_Rplot174_122_646lo.jpg
http://img28117.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc646/727808452_Rplot174_122_646lo.jpg

This is better.

[WeirdLookingFellow]

+ another one with many more samples and users

http://img28117.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc646/727808452_Rplot174_122_646lo.jpg

There really is a need for more Romanian results, there's like 4 of us there, 5 if you count Iris. At least I'm not weird plotting on this one.

[Dušan]

K36 Tsne:
https://i.imgur.com/Y9jeuzp.png

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yee2248ok2guwyz/K36Tsne.png?dl=0

Could you add my result on K36 plot?

Population
Amerindian -
Arabian 0.30 Pct
Armenian 0.29 Pct
Basque 3.64 Pct
Central_African -
Central_Euro 7.21 Pct
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 10.17 Pct
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 16.16 Pct
East_Med 5.37 Pct
Eastern_Euro 10.29 Pct
Fennoscandian 4.12 Pct
French 1.71 Pct
Iberian 6.25 Pct
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 15.44 Pct
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African 0.12 Pct
North_Atlantic -
North_Caucasian 2.64 Pct
North_Sea 6.70 Pct
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 4.36 Pct
West_African -
West_Caucasian 1.74 Pct
West_Med 3.49 Pct

[Lemgrant]

There really is a need for more Romanian results, there's like 4 of us there, 5 if you count Iris. At least I'm not weird plotting on this one.

updated with more samples and users:

(8000 x 3138 pixels)
http://img28125.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc604/791447350_Rplot178_122_604lo.jpg
http://img28125.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc604/791447350_Rplot178_122_604lo.jpg

[WeirdLookingFellow]

updated with more samples and users:

(8000 x 3138 pixels)
ht604lo.jpg
h

Nice, interesting. Much more clear how I still fit within the Romanian frame tho pushed towards German a bit, it's actually the first PCA to be more similar to the G25 ones for me.

[ph2ter]

Could you add my result on K36 plot?

Population
Amerindian -
Arabian 0.30 Pct
Armenian 0.29 Pct
Basque 3.64 Pct
Central_African -
Central_Euro 7.21 Pct
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 10.17 Pct
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 16.16 Pct
East_Med 5.37 Pct
Eastern_Euro 10.29 Pct
Fennoscandian 4.12 Pct
French 1.71 Pct
Iberian 6.25 Pct
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 15.44 Pct
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African 0.12 Pct
North_Atlantic -
North_Caucasian 2.64 Pct
North_Sea 6.70 Pct
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 4.36 Pct
West_African -
West_Caucasian 1.74 Pct
West_Med 3.49 Pct

https://i.imgur.com/Y14d3fZ.png

[Luke35]

K36 Tsne:
https://i.imgur.com/Y9jeuzp.png

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yee2248ok2guwyz/K36Tsne.png?dl=0

Could you please add me, and my parents? Thanks!

Mr.G
Amerindian -0
Arabian 0.16
Armenian -0
Basque 0.32
Central_African -0
Central_Euro 8.61
East_African -0
East_Asian -0
East_Balkan 6.46
East_Central_Asian -0
East_Central_Euro 10.67
East_Med -0
Eastern_Euro 7.59
Fennoscandian 4.68
French 6.53
Iberian 14.20
Indo-Chinese -0
Italian 13.91
Malayan -0
Near_Eastern -0
North_African -0
North_Atlantic 10.81
North_Caucasian 2.43
North_Sea 9.74
Northeast_African -0
Oceanian -0
Omotic -0
Pygmy -0
Siberian -0
South_Asian-0
South_Central_Asian 3.42
South_Chinese -0
Volga-Ural -0
West_African -0
West_Caucasian 0.48
West_Med -0

Mr.G_mom
Amerindian -0
Arabian -0
Armenian -0
Basque 0.74
Central_African -0
Central_Euro 7.22
East_African -0
East_Asian -0
East_Balkan 5.85
East_Central_Asian -0
East_Central_Euro 6.19
East_Med -0
Eastern_Euro 4.02
Fennoscandian 6.17
French 9.11
Iberian 16.99
Indo-Chinese -0
Italian 9.50
Malayan -0
Near_Eastern -0
North_African -0
North_Atlantic 15.59
North_Caucasian 4.07
North_Sea 14.55
Northeast_African -0
Oceanian -0
Omotic -0
Pygmy -0
Siberian -0
South_Asian-0
South_Central_Asian -0
South_Chinese -0
Volga-Ural -0
West_African -0
West_Caucasian -0
West_Med -0

Mr.G_dad (phased and adjusted w/ noise removed, by Lukasz M)
Amerindian 0,00
Arabian 1,95
Armenian 0,00
Basque 0,61
Central_African 0,00
Central_Euro 9,37
East_African 0,00
East_Asian 0,00
East_Balkan 6,31
East_Central_Asian 0,00
East_Central_Euro 14,32
East_Med 0,00
Eastern_Euro 10,90
Fennoscandian 4,23
French 3,63
Iberian 10,57
Indo-Chinese 0,00
Italian 16,18
Malayan 0,00
Near_Eastern 0,00
North_African 0,00
North_Atlantic 6,58
North_Caucasian 0,92
North_Sea 5,40
Northeast_African 0,00
Oceanian 0,00
Omotic 0,00
Pygmy 0,00
Siberian 0,00
South_Asian0,00
South_Central_Asian 7,39
South_Chinese 0,00
Volga-Ural 0,00
West_African 0,00
West_Caucasian 1,00
West_Med 0,66

[Lemgrant]

Nice, interesting. Much more clear how I still fit within the Romanian frame tho pushed towards German a bit, it's actually the first PCA to be more similar to the G25 ones for me.

and again, this is not pca, it is t-sne
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-distributed_stochastic_neighbor_embedding

[ph2ter]

Could you please add me, and my parents? Thanks!

Mr.G
Amerindian -0
Arabian 0.16
Armenian -0
Basque 0.32
Central_African -0
Central_Euro 8.61
East_African -0
East_Asian -0
East_Balkan 6.46
East_Central_Asian -0
East_Central_Euro 10.67
East_Med -0
Eastern_Euro 7.59
Fennoscandian 4.68
French 6.53
Iberian 14.20
Indo-Chinese -0
Italian 13.91
Malayan -0
Near_Eastern -0
North_African -0
North_Atlantic 10.81
North_Caucasian 2.43
North_Sea 9.74
Northeast_African -0
Oceanian -0
Omotic -0
Pygmy -0
Siberian -0
South_Asian-0
South_Central_Asian 3.42
South_Chinese -0
Volga-Ural -0
West_African -0
West_Caucasian 0.48
West_Med -0

Mr.G_mom
Amerindian -0
Arabian -0
Armenian -0
Basque 0.74
Central_African -0
Central_Euro 7.22
East_African -0
East_Asian -0
East_Balkan 5.85
East_Central_Asian -0
East_Central_Euro 6.19
East_Med -0
Eastern_Euro 4.02
Fennoscandian 6.17
French 9.11
Iberian 16.99
Indo-Chinese -0
Italian 9.50
Malayan -0
Near_Eastern -0
North_African -0
North_Atlantic 15.59
North_Caucasian 4.07
North_Sea 14.55
Northeast_African -0
Oceanian -0
Omotic -0
Pygmy -0
Siberian -0
South_Asian-0
South_Central_Asian -0
South_Chinese -0
Volga-Ural -0
West_African -0
West_Caucasian -0
West_Med -0

Mr.G_dad (phased and adjusted w/ noise removed, by Lukasz M)
Amerindian 0,00
Arabian 1,95
Armenian 0,00
Basque 0,61
Central_African 0,00
Central_Euro 9,37
East_African 0,00
East_Asian 0,00
East_Balkan 6,31
East_Central_Asian 0,00
East_Central_Euro 14,32
East_Med 0,00
Eastern_Euro 10,90
Fennoscandian 4,23
French 3,63
Iberian 10,57
Indo-Chinese 0,00
Italian 16,18
Malayan 0,00
Near_Eastern 0,00
North_African 0,00
North_Atlantic 6,58
North_Caucasian 0,92
North_Sea 5,40
Northeast_African 0,00
Oceanian 0,00
Omotic 0,00
Pygmy 0,00
Siberian 0,00
South_Asian0,00
South_Central_Asian 7,39
South_Chinese 0,00
Volga-Ural 0,00
West_African 0,00
West_Caucasian 1,00
West_Med 0,66

https://i.imgur.com/7h105lI.png

[Jana]

West Serbian is obviously fake average. Dušan who is fully Krajina Serb is nowhere close to it.

[WeirdLookingFellow]

and again, this is not pca, it is t-sne
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-distributed_stochastic_neighbor_embedding

Aye, still getting used to this stuff. Thanks for the link.


https://i.imgur.com/7h105lI.png

Could you add me too plz on that one?



Amerindian -
Arabian -
Armenian 1.28 Pct
Basque -
Central_African -
Central_Euro 7.96 Pct
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 7.36 Pct
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 13.57 Pct
East_Med 5.98 Pct
Eastern_Euro 6.91 Pct
Fennoscandian 2.47 Pct
French 3.89 Pct
Iberian 9.49 Pct
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 22.60 Pct
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African 0.46 Pct
North_Atlantic 2.39 Pct
North_Caucasian -
North_Sea 4.09 Pct
Northeast_African -
Oceanian 0.20 Pct
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian 2.04 Pct
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 3.45 Pct
West_African 0.27 Pct
West_Caucasian 1.73 Pct
West_Med 3.86 Pct

[Dušan]

West Serbian is obviously fake average. Dušan who is fully Krajina Serb is nowhere close to it.

Eurogenes K36 places me closer to Serbian average than Eurogenes K13 and K15.
Maybe it is more detailed analysis because of more components (36).

[ph2ter]

Aye, still getting used to this stuff. Thanks for the link.



Could you add me too plz on that one?



Amerindian -
Arabian -
Armenian 1.28 Pct
Basque -
Central_African -
Central_Euro 7.96 Pct
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 7.36 Pct
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 13.57 Pct
East_Med 5.98 Pct
Eastern_Euro 6.91 Pct
Fennoscandian 2.47 Pct
French 3.89 Pct
Iberian 9.49 Pct
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 22.60 Pct
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African 0.46 Pct
North_Atlantic 2.39 Pct
North_Caucasian -
North_Sea 4.09 Pct
Northeast_African -
Oceanian 0.20 Pct
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian 2.04 Pct
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 3.45 Pct
West_African 0.27 Pct
West_Caucasian 1.73 Pct
West_Med 3.86 Pct

https://i.imgur.com/aOEPikI.png

[17571imre]

Population

Amerindian
-
Arabian
1.19 Pct
Armenian
1.12 Pct
Basque
0.28 Pct
Central_African
-
Central_Euro
6.62 Pct
East_African
-
East_Asian
-
East_Balkan
-
East_Central_Asian
-
East_Central_Euro
13.94 Pct
East_Med
3.57 Pct
Eastern_Euro
4.42 Pct
Fennoscandian
10.01 Pct
French
4.19 Pct
Iberian
8.36 Pct
Indo-Chinese
-
Italian
18.09 Pct
Malayan
-
Near_Eastern
-
North_African
-
North_Atlantic
8.11 Pct
North_Caucasian
3.05 Pct
North_Sea
9.84 Pct
Northeast_African
-
Oceanian
-
Omotic
-
Pygmy
-
Siberian
-
South_Asian
-
South_Central_Asian
0.96 Pct
South_Chinese
-
Volga-Ural
1.32 Pct
West_African
-
West_Caucasian
-
West_Med
4.92 Pct

can you also add me please? thankyou

[Jana]

Eurogenes K36 places me closer to Serbian average than Eurogenes K13 and K15.
Maybe it is more detailed analysis because of more components (36).

I think you're typical Serb, but I am typical Croat too.

[Lucas]

West Serbian is obviously fake average. Dušan who is fully Krajina Serb is nowhere close to it.

It is not my average. Ph2ter had to calculate it from results of people.

Anyway interesting plot.

[Jana]

It is not my average. Ph2ter had to calculate it from results of people.

Anyway interesting plot.

I never said it is. It's just wrong that I am suposedly typical western Serb, I am nowhere close to Serbs (western or eastern) in any gedmatch of global 25 calcululators/PCAs.

[Lucas]

BTW ph2ter, you can use this NE-Romanian average, should be closer to reality (if you still use this two years old). But we will see.

Amerindian 0
Arabian 0,1225
Armenian 0,515
Basque 1,285
Central_African 0
Central_Euro 6,8275
East_African 0
East_Asian 0
East_Balkan 8,2
East_Central_Asian 0
East_Central_Euro 12,1925
East_Med 5,685
Eastern_Euro 10,105
Fennoscandian 7,7325
French 2,73
Iberian 6,685
Indo0Chinese 0
Italian 15,79
Malayan 0
Near_Eastern 4,2875
North_African 0,275
North_Atlantic 0,4
North_Caucasian 7,1775
North_Sea 5,5075
Northeast_African 0
Oceanian 0,0625
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South_Asian 0
South_Central_Asian 1,2225
South_Chinese 0,105
Volga0Ural 1,0375
West_African 0
West_Caucasian 0
West_Med 2,0325

[ph2ter]

I never said it is. It's just wrong that I am suposedly typical western Serb, I am nowhere close to Serbs (western or eastern) in any gedmatch of global 25 calcululators/PCAs.

Always problems with you and your bf :)
I already removed W-SERBIAN average.

[Jana]

Sorry! :p

[Bessarion]

...to join a party, although I remember that K36 is somehow way off than K13, K15, G25;


Population
Amerindian 0.27 Pct
Arabian -
Armenian -
Basque 1.89 Pct
Central_African -
Central_Euro 5.55 Pct
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 10.11 Pct
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 11.41 Pct
East_Med 4.33 Pct
Eastern_Euro 8.31 Pct
Fennoscandian 7.76 Pct
French 4.68 Pct
Iberian 2.78 Pct
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 12.17 Pct
Malayan -
Near_Eastern 1.38 Pct
North_African -
North_Atlantic 10.32 Pct
North_Caucasian 7.02 Pct
North_Sea 9.59 Pct
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 1.29 Pct
West_African -
West_Caucasian 0.09 Pct
West_Med 1.01 Pct

[ph2ter]

Population

Amerindian
-
Arabian
1.19 Pct
Armenian
1.12 Pct
Basque
0.28 Pct
Central_African
-
Central_Euro
6.62 Pct
East_African
-
East_Asian
-
East_Balkan
-
East_Central_Asian
-
East_Central_Euro
13.94 Pct
East_Med
3.57 Pct
Eastern_Euro
4.42 Pct
Fennoscandian
10.01 Pct
French
4.19 Pct
Iberian
8.36 Pct
Indo-Chinese
-
Italian
18.09 Pct
Malayan
-
Near_Eastern
-
North_African
-
North_Atlantic
8.11 Pct
North_Caucasian
3.05 Pct
North_Sea
9.84 Pct
Northeast_African
-
Oceanian
-
Omotic
-
Pygmy
-
Siberian
-
South_Asian
-
South_Central_Asian
0.96 Pct
South_Chinese
-
Volga-Ural
1.32 Pct
West_African
-
West_Caucasian
-
West_Med
4.92 Pct

can you also add me please? thankyou

https://i.imgur.com/xTn6Wnz.png

[CommonSense]

Never seen myself on a k36 pca, so here it goes:

Population
Amerindian -
Arabian -
Armenian -
Basque 1.87 Pct
Central_African -
Central_Euro 5.63 Pct
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 7.26 Pct
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 14.23 Pct
East_Med 8.41 Pct
Eastern_Euro 6.93 Pct
Fennoscandian 9.16 Pct
French 2.50 Pct
Iberian 7.76 Pct
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 16.61 Pct
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African -
North_Atlantic 3.37 Pct
North_Caucasian 4.97 Pct
North_Sea 4.69 Pct
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian 0.29 Pct
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 1.15 Pct
West_African -
West_Caucasian 3.01 Pct
West_Med 2.17 Pct

[Ljubic]

Me:
Population
Amerindian -
Arabian 0.50 Pct
Armenian 2.13 Pct
Basque 5.01 Pct
Central_African -
Central_Euro 6.59 Pct
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 8.90 Pct
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 18.88 Pct
East_Med 5.17 Pct
Eastern_Euro 7.19 Pct
Fennoscandian 1.73 Pct
French 2.84 Pct
Iberian 3.29 Pct
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 13.28 Pct
Malayan -
Near_Eastern 4.01 Pct
North_African -
North_Atlantic 6.45 Pct
North_Caucasian 2.15 Pct
North_Sea 7.01 Pct
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 2.18 Pct
West_African -
West_Caucasian -
West_Med 2.72 Pct

Father:

Population
Amerindian -
Arabian 1.33 Pct
Armenian 0.14 Pct
Basque 2.62 Pct
Central_African -
Central_Euro 9.95 Pct
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 8.30 Pct
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 19.25 Pct
East_Med 4.04 Pct
Eastern_Euro 6.55 Pct
Fennoscandian 3.28 Pct
French 2.69 Pct
Iberian 5.43 Pct
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 14.35 Pct
Malayan -
Near_Eastern 3.06 Pct
North_African 1.52 Pct
North_Atlantic 7.11 Pct
North_Caucasian -
North_Sea 1.39 Pct
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 2.69 Pct
West_African -
West_Caucasian 4.65 Pct
West_Med 1.65 Pct

Also love you for doing all this ph2ter.

[WeirdLookingFellow]

https://i.imgur.com/xTn6Wnz.png

Huh, this one is quite different as it plots me towards Greeks, this is the first one that does that, I usually get plotted more Western. Even Lukasz's K36 plotted me more in that direction of Central-West Europe. Are you sure there was no changed value somewhere? Woudn't be the first time that it happened to me. Otherwise very cool, thanks.

[CommonSense]

Huh, this one is quite different as it plots me towards Greeks, this is the first one that does that, I usually get plotted more Western. Even Lukasz's K36 plotted me more in that direction of Central-West Europe. Are you sure there was no changed value somewhere? Woudn't be the first time that it happened to me. Otherwise very cool, thanks.

Change your username to WeirdPlottingFellow

[Lucas]

Change your username to WeirdPlottingFellow

Yes:)

[farke1]

Nice work. Makes me really want to get my G25 coordinates done now.

[ph2ter]

Huh, this one is quite different as it plots me towards Greeks, this is the first one that does that, I usually get plotted more Western. Even Lukasz's K36 plotted me more in that direction of Central-West Europe. Are you sure there was no changed value somewhere? Woudn't be the first time that it happened to me. Otherwise very cool, thanks.

But you are in the usual spot. Look the plot with the perspective in mind.

[ph2ter]

https://i.imgur.com/T9Fi98J.png

[WeirdLookingFellow]

Change your username to WeirdPlottingFellow

Strongly considering it atm hehe


But you are in the usual spot. Look the plot with the perspective in mind.

This is Lukasz's which is why I was asking. On his I am further away from Albanians and Greeks. Yours has Balkanites clustering more closely together than his, but even so, if Lukasz's was as yours, should I not be on his further down towards Albania and Macedonia? Just asking, not constesting, I'm looking to understand.

https://i.ibb.co/yVSLqJ8/hzUeVRm.png (https://ibb.co/XV8mtTz)

[Coastal Elite]

Cool PCA. I was curious why Tyrol Austrians plot much closer to South Germans than regular Austrians. My guess is Tyrol has more Celtic admixture and that makes it more West shifted.

[Ford]

West Serbian is obviously fake average. Dušan who is fully Krajina Serb is nowhere close to it.

I'm confused how I managed to plot just north of you :P

[Lucas]

Nice work. Makes me really want to get my G25 coordinates done now.

But it is K36:)

[Lucas]

Strongly considering it atm hehe



This is Lukasz's which is why I was asking. On his I am further away from Albanians and Greeks. Yours has Balkanites clustering more closely together than his, but even so, if Lukasz's was as yours, should I not be on his further down towards Albania and Macedonia? Just asking, not constesting, I'm looking to understand.

https://i.ibb.co/yVSLqJ8/hzUeVRm.png (https://ibb.co/XV8mtTz)

Practically all Balkan references I have different than ph2ter and plot algo is different too. And you are WeirdPlottingFellow... :)

[Lemgrant]

But it is K36:)

no, in the first post is G25

[Dušan]

I wonder why there are no modern oracle for Eurogenes K36?

It would be nice to see mixed mode modern population for this calculator.

[Lucas]

I wonder why there are no modern oracle for Eurogenes K36?

It would be nice to see mixed mode modern population for this calculator.

Davidski wasn't interested. When it was created there were not many academic samples and he used too many for references.

So I created it about 2,5 years ago at first for fun using both academic and Gedmatch kits with regional GEDCOMs if there were available.
Mixed oracle is used in my K36 Ancestral Report as one of the tools.

[Dušan]

Davidski wasn't interested. When it was created there were not many academic samples and he used too many for references.

So I created it about 2,5 years ago at first for fun using both academic and Gedmatch kits with regional GEDCOMs if there were available.
Mixed oracle is used in my K36 Ancestral Report as one of the tools.

Yes, I know that there is oracle for ancient populations in Admixture studio.
Do you plan to create oracle for modern populations in near future?

[ph2ter]

Cool PCA. I was curious why Tyrol Austrians plot much closer to South Germans than regular Austrians. My guess is Tyrol has more Celtic admixture and that makes it more West shifted.

Again, this is not PCA.
T-sne is more similar to clustering than to PCA. It is actually a clustering on 2-D plane. Because of that East and West Europeans are so sharply divided.

[vbnetkhio]

Yes, I know that there is oracle for ancient populations in Admixture studio.
Do you plan to create oracle for modern populations in near future?

there is a k36 modern oracle in the LM genetics k36 report

[Lucas]

Again, this is not PCA.
T-sne is more similar to clustering than to PCA. It is actually a clustering on 2-D plane. Because of that East and West Europeans are so sharply divided.

Do you think that big difference between them is properly shown here or exaggerated?

[Coastal Elite]

Again, this is not PCA.
T-sne is more similar to clustering than to PCA. It is actually a clustering on 2-D plane. Because of that East and West Europeans are so sharply divided.

Got it, sorry for the confusion.

[ph2ter]

Do you think that big difference between them is properly shown here or exaggerated?

The difference is not so big, it is exaggerated, but Northwest Europeans are extremely similar to each other. This is the reason for a disproportionately big blob of samples in Northwest Europe in K36 tsne plot.

[MercifulServant]

MINE

Population
Amerindian -
Arabian 0.96 Pct
Armenian -
Basque 2.70 Pct
Central_African -
Central_Euro 2.65 Pct
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 9.27 Pct
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 12.57 Pct
East_Med 1.39 Pct
Eastern_Euro 9.03 Pct
Fennoscandian 5.64 Pct
French -
Iberian 8.40 Pct
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 14.64 Pct
Malayan -
Near_Eastern 2.75 Pct
North_African -
North_Atlantic 4.64 Pct
North_Caucasian 10.72 Pct
North_Sea 6.66 Pct
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 0.79 Pct
West_African -
West_Caucasian 0.62 Pct
West_Med 6.55 Pct

[MercifulServant]

AYES FATHER

Population
Amerindian -
Arabian -
Armenian 2.40 Pct
Basque -
Central_African -
Central_Euro 12.26 Pct
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 9.00 Pct
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 13.25 Pct
East_Med 2.54 Pct
Eastern_Euro 8.47 Pct
Fennoscandian 5.29 Pct
French 1.04 Pct
Iberian 6.91 Pct
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 12.08 Pct
Malayan -
Near_Eastern 2.54 Pct
North_African -
North_Atlantic 6.10 Pct
North_Caucasian 1.10 Pct
North_Sea 7.10 Pct
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 1.51 Pct
West_African -
West_Caucasian 4.55 Pct
West_Med 3.85 Pct


AYE

Population
Amerindian -
Arabian -
Armenian -
Basque -
Central_African -
Central_Euro 14.38 Pct
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 6.74 Pct
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 8.25 Pct
East_Med 2.47 Pct
Eastern_Euro 5.07 Pct
Fennoscandian 8.69 Pct
French 2.87 Pct
Iberian 11.39 Pct
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 12.30 Pct
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African -
North_Atlantic 10.70 Pct
North_Caucasian 0.19 Pct
North_Sea 9.13 Pct
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian 1.90 Pct
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 0.68 Pct
West_African -
West_Caucasian 3.09 Pct
West_Med 2.14 Pct

[Luke35]

Again, this is not PCA.
T-sne is more similar to clustering than to PCA. It is actually a clustering on 2-D plane. Because of that East and West Europeans are so sharply divided.

Thanks for the explanation. I was wondering why my mother and I ended up so far apart on this, very interesting.

[Lemgrant]

+ added more users

Eurogenes K13 t-SNE

http://img28117.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc737/823920102_Rplot183_122_737lo.jpg

http://img28117.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc737/823920102_Rplot183_122_737lo.jpg

[Jana]

^^^^ :pinklove:

https://i.imgur.com/sgoOMYl.png

[dududud]

^^^^ :pinklove:



Love is Love...

[ph2ter]

https://i.imgur.com/YpgPEDI.png

[Dick]

:pinklove:


https://i.imgur.com/V7fnOR0.jpg

[J. Ketch]

K36 Tsne:
https://i.imgur.com/Y9jeuzp.png

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yee2248ok2guwyz/K36Tsne.png?dl=0
Pretty certain my parents are already on here but I can't remember what names were used, could you rename them?



CreodaMum,0,0,0,0.65,0,10.44,0,0,0,0,7.04,0,6.30,6 .88,8.88,12.84,0,8.33,0,0,0,12.91,2.40,22.30,0,0,0 ,0,0,0,0,0,0.62,0,0,0.42
CreodaDad,0,0,0,4.44,0,5.07,0,0,0,0,9.18,0,8.78,8. 50,8.08,9.14,0,7.84,0,0,0,18.35,0.92,19.68,0,0,0,0 ,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
Creoda,0,0,0,1.52,0,10.88,0,0,0,0,3.68,0,8.96,7.19 ,10.99,10.85,0,7.47,0,0,0,15.26,0.47,22.73,0,0,0,0 ,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0

K36 plots are better than the others IMO.

[Lemgrant]

Pretty certain my parents are already on here but I can't remember what names were used, could you rename them?



CreodaMum,0,0,0,0.65,0,10.44,0,0,0,0,7.04,0,6.30,6 .88,8.88,12.84,0,8.33,0,0,0,12.91,2.40,22.30,0,0,0 ,0,0,0,0,0,0.62,0,0,0.42
CreodaDad,0,0,0,4.44,0,5.07,0,0,0,0,9.18,0,8.78,8. 50,8.08,9.14,0,7.84,0,0,0,18.35,0.92,19.68,0,0,0,0 ,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
Creoda,0,0,0,1.52,0,10.88,0,0,0,0,3.68,0,8.96,7.19 ,10.99,10.85,0,7.47,0,0,0,15.26,0.47,22.73,0,0,0,0 ,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0

K36 plots are better than the others IMO.

on K36 Ford(Branimir) is Croat and Feiichy is West Serb :icon_lol: . this one for example is not accurate

[Lucas]

on K36 Ford(Branimir) is Croat and Feiichy is West Serb :icon_lol: . this one for example is not accurate

Because it is question of West Serbian reference here. Maybe with mine would be different plotting.

[Lemgrant]

Because it is question of West Serbian reference here. Maybe with mine would be different plotting.

Maybe. Ford is pure Serb as far as he knows and on k13 he is at the same level with the other Serbians.

[michal3141]

+ added more users

Eurogenes K13 t-SNE

http://img28117.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc737/823920102_Rplot183_122_737lo.jpg

http://img28117.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc737/823920102_Rplot183_122_737lo.jpg

Balto-Slavs are one family :amour101:

[MagnusDark]

+ added more users

Eurogenes K13 t-SNE

http://img28117.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc737/823920102_Rplot183_122_737lo.jpg

http://img28117.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc737/823920102_Rplot183_122_737lo.jpg

Could you add me and my father? If it’s no trouble. We’re northern Albanians.

Me:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_Med 27.15
2 East_Med 24.55
3 North_Atlantic 19.45
4 Baltic 16.82
5 West_Asian 10.53
6 Red_Sea 1.5

Father:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 26.89
2 West_Med 25.68
3 North_Atlantic 17.69
4 Baltic 16.94
5 West_Asian 10.15
6 Red_Sea 1.59
7 Amerindian 0.62
8 Siberian 0.21
9 Northeast_African 0.11
10 Oceanian 0.06
11 East_Asian 0.05

[ph2ter]

Pretty certain my parents are already on here but I can't remember what names were used, could you rename them?



CreodaMum,0,0,0,0.65,0,10.44,0,0,0,0,7.04,0,6.30,6 .88,8.88,12.84,0,8.33,0,0,0,12.91,2.40,22.30,0,0,0 ,0,0,0,0,0,0.62,0,0,0.42
CreodaDad,0,0,0,4.44,0,5.07,0,0,0,0,9.18,0,8.78,8. 50,8.08,9.14,0,7.84,0,0,0,18.35,0.92,19.68,0,0,0,0 ,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0
Creoda,0,0,0,1.52,0,10.88,0,0,0,0,3.68,0,8.96,7.19 ,10.99,10.85,0,7.47,0,0,0,15.26,0.47,22.73,0,0,0,0 ,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0

K36 plots are better than the others IMO.

https://i.imgur.com/30kN4J1.png

[J. Ketch]

on K36 Ford(Branimir) is Croat and Feiichy is West Serb :icon_lol: . this one for example is not accurate
Mixing up Croats with Serbs? :scared:

[Coastal Elite]

Anybody in this rectangle is a true American.

https://i.imgur.com/HLZR6U1.jpg

[Lemgrant]

Could you add me and my father? If it’s no trouble. We’re northern Albanians.

Me:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_Med 27.15
2 East_Med 24.55
3 North_Atlantic 19.45
4 Baltic 16.82
5 West_Asian 10.53
6 Red_Sea 1.5

Father:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 26.89
2 West_Med 25.68
3 North_Atlantic 17.69
4 Baltic 16.94
5 West_Asian 10.15
6 Red_Sea 1.59
7 Amerindian 0.62
8 Siberian 0.21
9 Northeast_African 0.11
10 Oceanian 0.06
11 East_Asian 0.05

http://img28105.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc79/835126787_Rplot185_122_79lo.jpg
http://img28105.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc79/835126787_Rplot185_122_79lo.jpg

btw the Albanian average that you see on this plot, I found it on this forum, some Albanian member calculated it from various results. Kosovars and Ice_T are friends of Albanian user Kelmendasi.

[Lemgrant]

+ ph2ter family

http://img28104.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc219/836613812_Rplot186_122_219lo.jpg

http://img28104.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc219/836613812_Rplot186_122_219lo.jpg

[MagnusDark]

http://img28105.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc79/835126787_Rplot185_122_79lo.jpg
http://img28105.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc79/835126787_Rplot185_122_79lo.jpg

btw the Albanian average that you see on this plot, I found it on this forum, some Albanian member calculated it from various results. Kosovars and Ice_T are friends of Albanian user Kelmendasi.

Yes I actually know Kelmandasi through the Albanian dna project. Great guy. Where’s that ignoramous EpirusDNA who called us “Greeks”. He should have a look see lol.

[Lemgrant]

+ added Greeks from Athens (academic samples) from here >> https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?245352-Random-GEDmatch-kits&p=6240836&viewfull=1#post6240836

(9000 x 3530 pixels)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48884277203_661b6e6eec_o.png

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48884277203_661b6e6eec_o.png

[Lemgrant]

+added Serbian academic samples

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48885001676_7b42f0b819_o.png
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48885001676_7b42f0b819_o.png

[Dick]

+added Serbian academic samples

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48885001676_7b42f0b819_o.png
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48885001676_7b42f0b819_o.png

Add the Ultimate Pagan

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?278389-emziepiex3-s-genetic-results

[17571imre]

+ added Greeks from Athens (academic samples) from here >> https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?245352-Random-GEDmatch-kits&p=6240836&viewfull=1#post6240836

(9000 x 3530 pixels)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48884277203_661b6e6eec_o.png

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48884277203_661b6e6eec_o.png

can you add me and my mother also on there thankyou

ME

Population

North_Atlantic
31.31 Pct
Baltic
26.48 Pct
West_Med
16.82 Pct
West_Asian
7.40 Pct
East_Med
14.03 Pct
Red_Sea
0.99 Pct
South_Asian
0.77 Pct
East_Asian
0.28 Pct
Siberian
1.25 Pct
Amerindian
0.12 Pct
Oceanian
0.55 Pct
Northeast_African
-
Sub-Saharan
-

[17571imre]

mother:

Population

North_Atlantic
31.10 Pct
Baltic
29.77 Pct
West_Med
15.27 Pct
West_Asian
5.13 Pct
East_Med
12.98 Pct
Red_Sea
-
South_Asian
1.58 Pct
East_Asian
0.80 Pct
Siberian
3.29 Pct
Amerindian
0.08 Pct
Oceanian
-
Northeast_African
-
Sub-Saharan
-

[oszkar07]

Hi ph2ter

Could you please add me too.

Thanks .


Oszkar
Population
Amerindian -
Arabian 0.68 Pct
Armenian -
Basque 3.71 Pct
Central_African -
Central_Euro 3.99 Pct
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 5.84 Pct
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 11.25 Pct
East_Med -
Eastern_Euro 11.25 Pct
Fennoscandian 7.84 Pct
French 7.53 Pct
Iberian 6.67 Pct
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 11.73 Pct
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African -
North_Atlantic 10.15 Pct
North_Caucasian 2.58 Pct
North_Sea 14.12 Pct
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 1.09 Pct
West_African -
West_Caucasian 0.12 Pct
West_Med 1.44 Pct

[Lemgrant]

.


.


https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48885697791_67750fabba_o.png

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48885697791_67750fabba_o.png

+ new Hungarians, 2 Albanians, Hungarian from Ukraine, Ukrainian from Chernivtsi Oblast

[Dick]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48885697791_67750fabba_o.png

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48885697791_67750fabba_o.png

+ new Hungarians, 2 Albanians, Hungarian from Ukraine, Ukrainian from Chernivtsi Oblast

Talk about being majorly cock blocked. Goodbye Moje Ime...

[ph2ter]

Hi ph2ter

Could you please add me too.

Thanks .


Oszkar
Population
Amerindian -
Arabian 0.68 Pct
Armenian -
Basque 3.71 Pct
Central_African -
Central_Euro 3.99 Pct
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 5.84 Pct
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 11.25 Pct
East_Med -
Eastern_Euro 11.25 Pct
Fennoscandian 7.84 Pct
French 7.53 Pct
Iberian 6.67 Pct
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 11.73 Pct
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African -
North_Atlantic 10.15 Pct
North_Caucasian 2.58 Pct
North_Sea 14.12 Pct
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 1.09 Pct
West_African -
West_Caucasian 0.12 Pct
West_Med 1.44 Pct

https://i.imgur.com/mOgSgSs.png

[Lemgrant]

Talk about being majorly cock blocked. Goodbye Moje Ime...

:icon_lol:

[harutsafaryan07]

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48885697791_67750fabba_o.png

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48885697791_67750fabba_o.png

+ new Hungarians, 2 Albanians, Hungarian from Ukraine, Ukrainian from Chernivtsi OblastCan you post same thing but without users

Отправлено с моего DLI-TL20 через Tapatalk

[Lucas]

Simple explanation what the hell it is:)


https://youtu.be/NEaUSP4YerM?t=19

[Lemgrant]

+ more samples

http://img28116.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc549/055226552_Rplot209_122_549lo.jpg

http://img28116.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc549/055226552_Rplot209_122_549lo.jpg

[bained]

Add me please. I want to feel weird again.

North_Atlantic 25.67 Pct
Baltic 21.25 Pct
West_Med 18.04 Pct
West_Asian 8.82 Pct
East_Med 22.31 Pct
Red_Sea 2.30 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.26 Pct
Amerindian 0.98 Pct
Oceanian 0.32 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

[Lemgrant]

Add me please. I want to feel weird again.

North_Atlantic 25.67 Pct
Baltic 21.25 Pct
West_Med 18.04 Pct
West_Asian 8.82 Pct
East_Med 22.31 Pct
Red_Sea 2.30 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.26 Pct
Amerindian 0.98 Pct
Oceanian 0.32 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

http://img28127.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc903/061671400_Rplot210_122_903lo.jpg
http://img28127.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc903/061671400_Rplot210_122_903lo.jpg

[dududud]

http://img28127.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc903/061671400_Rplot210_122_903lo.jpg


Add me, brother:

North_Atlantic 38.97 Pct
Baltic 13.80 Pct
West_Med 27.41 Pct
West_Asian 5.34 Pct
East_Med 11.39 Pct
Red_Sea 1.05 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian 1.55 Pct
Siberian -
Amerindian -
Oceanian 0.15 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.32 Pct

[Lemgrant]

Add me, brother:

North_Atlantic 38.97 Pct
Baltic 13.80 Pct
West_Med 27.41 Pct
West_Asian 5.34 Pct
East_Med 11.39 Pct
Red_Sea 1.05 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian 1.55 Pct
Siberian -
Amerindian -
Oceanian 0.15 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.32 Pct

http://img28117.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc452/064202650_Rplot215_122_452lo.jpg

http://img28117.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc452/064202650_Rplot215_122_452lo.jpg


+added ancient Hittite Anatolia samples

[bained]

Very cool my friend. Here some Bulgarians from around Plovdiv region.

North_Atlantic 20.48 Pct
Baltic 23.47 Pct
West_Med 21.56 Pct
West_Asian 10.49 Pct
East_Med 19.55 Pct
Red_Sea 0.60 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian 2.14 Pct
Amerindian 0.76 Pct
Oceanian 0.88 Pct
Northeast_African 0.06 Pct
Sub-Saharan -

North_Atlantic 23.20 Pct
Baltic 22.40 Pct
West_Med 17.72 Pct
West_Asian 8.92 Pct
East_Med 20.03 Pct
Red_Sea 3.71 Pct
South_Asian 0.86 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian 1.54 Pct
Amerindian 1.62 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

North_Atlantic 21.90 Pct
Baltic 22.46 Pct
West_Med 18.39 Pct
West_Asian 13.49 Pct
East_Med 19.27 Pct
Red_Sea 2.48 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian 0.29 Pct
Siberian 0.73 Pct
Amerindian 0.62 Pct
Oceanian 0.37 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

North_Atlantic 26.41 Pct
Baltic 22.34 Pct
West_Med 18.27 Pct
West_Asian 11.04 Pct
East_Med 17.22 Pct
Red_Sea 1.60 Pct
South_Asian 1.04 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 1.50 Pct
Oceanian 0.57 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

Component %
North_Atlantic 21.72%
Baltic 21.49%
West_Med 17.38%
East_Med 16.73%
West_Asian 14.89%
Red_Sea 3.54%
South_Asian 1.62%
East_Asian 1.13%
Oceanian 0.88%
Amerindian 0.47%
Northeast_African 0.15%
Sub-Saharan 0.01%


And a Greek from Patras

North_Atlantic 18.58 Pct
Baltic 15.11 Pct
West_Med 21.99 Pct
West_Asian 9.03 Pct
East_Med 29.75 Pct
Red_Sea 3.24 Pct
South_Asian 1.29 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.10 Pct
Oceanian 0.56 Pct
Northeast_African 0.35 Pct
Sub-Saharan -

[Lemgrant]

Very cool my friend. Here some Bulgarians from around Plovdiv region.

North_Atlantic 20.48 Pct
Baltic 23.47 Pct
West_Med 21.56 Pct
West_Asian 10.49 Pct
East_Med 19.55 Pct
Red_Sea 0.60 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian -
Siberian 2.14 Pct
Amerindian 0.76 Pct
Oceanian 0.88 Pct
Northeast_African 0.06 Pct
Sub-Saharan -

North_Atlantic 23.20 Pct
Baltic 22.40 Pct
West_Med 17.72 Pct
West_Asian 8.92 Pct
East_Med 20.03 Pct
Red_Sea 3.71 Pct
South_Asian 0.86 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian 1.54 Pct
Amerindian 1.62 Pct
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

North_Atlantic 21.90 Pct
Baltic 22.46 Pct
West_Med 18.39 Pct
West_Asian 13.49 Pct
East_Med 19.27 Pct
Red_Sea 2.48 Pct
South_Asian -
East_Asian 0.29 Pct
Siberian 0.73 Pct
Amerindian 0.62 Pct
Oceanian 0.37 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

North_Atlantic 26.41 Pct
Baltic 22.34 Pct
West_Med 18.27 Pct
West_Asian 11.04 Pct
East_Med 17.22 Pct
Red_Sea 1.60 Pct
South_Asian 1.04 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 1.50 Pct
Oceanian 0.57 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

Component %
North_Atlantic 21.72%
Baltic 21.49%
West_Med 17.38%
East_Med 16.73%
West_Asian 14.89%
Red_Sea 3.54%
South_Asian 1.62%
East_Asian 1.13%
Oceanian 0.88%
Amerindian 0.47%
Northeast_African 0.15%
Sub-Saharan 0.01%


And a Greek from Patras

North_Atlantic 18.58 Pct
Baltic 15.11 Pct
West_Med 21.99 Pct
West_Asian 9.03 Pct
East_Med 29.75 Pct
Red_Sea 3.24 Pct
South_Asian 1.29 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.10 Pct
Oceanian 0.56 Pct
Northeast_African 0.35 Pct
Sub-Saharan -

http://img28114.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc860/137762809_Rplot221_122_860lo.jpg
http://img28114.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc860/137762809_Rplot221_122_860lo.jpg

[Ylla]

http://img28114.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc860/137762809_Rplot221_122_860lo.jpg
http://img28114.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc860/137762809_Rplot221_122_860lo.jpg

Why do kosovars shift towards south Slavic populations? I think more Catholic kosovars should be tested but our genetics are a minority :(

[Jana]

Why do kosovars shift towards south Slavic populations? I think more Catholic kosovars should be tested but our genetics are a minority :(

Slavic admixture. Some are super close to Slavic-speaking Macedonians.
Works both way. Southernmost S.Slavs have lot of Balkan blood.

[Ylla]

Slavic admixture. Some are super close to Slavic-speaking Macedonians.
Works both way. Southernmost S.Slavs have lot of Balkan blood.

Possibly, its difficult to discuss this in a mature way without getting attacked lol. so I just kept quiet. I thought I will be really northern shifted before I took the test because they often told me I look Slavic not albanian. It's weird and makes me question my ancestry. They seem to cluster closely I seem to be the outlier. :)

[Jana]

Possibly, its difficult to discuss this in a mature way without getting attacked lol. so I just kept quiet. I thought I will be really northern shifted before I took the test because they often told me I look Slavic not albanian. It's weird and makes me question my ancestry. They seem to cluster closely I seem to be the outlier. :)

You mtdna is NE Euro though ? It's find in Hungarian conqueror graves iirc
You pass easily as South Slavic yes.

[dududud]

Add my friend, half sardinian and half belgian:

Amerindian -
Arabian -
Armenian -
Basque 4.15 Pct
Central_African 0.19 Pct
Central_Euro 4.66 Pct
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 3.83 Pct
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 3.58 Pct
East_Med 0.47 Pct
Eastern_Euro -
Fennoscandian 1.20 Pct
French 4.48 Pct
Iberian 19.19 Pct
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 21.04 Pct
Malayan -
Near_Eastern 1.97 Pct
North_African 0.77 Pct
North_Atlantic 5.18 Pct
North_Caucasian -
North_Sea 12.62 Pct
Northeast_African -
Oceanian 0.32 Pct
Omotic 0.05 Pct
Pygmy 0.12 Pct
Siberian -
South_Asian 0.32 Pct
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 0.61 Pct
West_African -
West_Caucasian -
West_Med 15.23 Pct

[Ylla]

You mtdna is NE Euro though ? It's find in Hungarian conqueror graves iirc
You pass easily as South Slavic yes.

Yes I accept I have Slavic mtdna <3
It hasn't affected my autosomal dna though on every test I am one of the most southern shifted. I guess its within the normal range for Albanians but I'm from Kosovo (with small ancestry from Montenegro and north albania) so I compare myself to kosovars not Albanians from elsewhere. I guess its sad when you are not similar to your country men ?? Idk.

[MagnusDark]

Possibly, its difficult to discuss this in a mature way without getting attacked lol. so I just kept quiet. I thought I will be really northern shifted before I took the test because they often told me I look Slavic not albanian. It's weird and makes me question my ancestry. They seem to cluster closely I seem to be the outlier. :)

phenotype doesn't always match our wider genetic profile. Seems my me and my father is closest towards you with most plots(we are from Diber e Vogel). Yet, he looks very med. I look semi dinaro-pontid with CM.

[MagnusDark]

Yes I accept I have Slavic mtdna <3
It hasn't affected my autosomal dna though on every test I am one of the most southern shifted. I guess its within the normal range for Albanians but I'm from Kosovo (with small ancestry from Montenegro and north albania) so I compare myself to kosovars not Albanians from elsewhere. I guess its sad when you are not similar to your country men ?? Idk.

What is your Italian value on K36? It is important to remember nearly every paleo balkan sample had huge amounts of this component in k36. Thracian and Mycenaean samples plotted further south than any. Modern Albanians average between 20-26, whereas Tuscans have the highest between 24-28. Me and my father are both atypical. he gets 35 Italian on k36 and I get 31. Mycenaean and Thracian samples were anywhere between 40-60 "italian" like in k36. I doubt it is recent southern ancestry. I think its just preserved genetic components that shifts you/us to maybe Proto-Albanian like folk.

[Xz2k9]

Slavic admixture. Some are super close to Slavic-speaking Macedonians.
Works both way. Southernmost S.Slavs have lot of Balkan blood.


Definitely not because of any Slavic admixture. The people that plot there score almost no East Europe. I didn't get any for example and nobody in my family looks remotely Slavic. Also IBD sharing and peer reviewed studies show Kosovars are genetically South Europeans and Macedonians have high IBD sharing with Albanians basically.

If anything, that's a pre-Slavic Balkan cluster. A lot of Macedonians are heavily mixed with natives which shifts them towards some Albanians. Some of these Macedonians get almost no East Europe.

There are also Ancient Balkan samples that were found that plotted that North.

One Bronze Age from Montenegro was plotting between me (Ice_T) and those Kosovars/Macedonians/Bulgarians somewhere. And those in Croatia were plotting far west of us , ending up in North Italy / Iberia ... Another from Montenegro also plotted there.


If anything, the Illyrian cluster was huge. With some even clustering with Greeks. Explains why even to this day the Albanian cluster is huge. I've seen Albanians that also plotted very West. There was an Albanian that plotted towards Iberia actually. Also some Albanians get Iberian and Italian on DNA tests. I've also seen South Slavs get this. But the average Albanian today doesn't shift that West.

I'd say North shifted Albanians have retained more Proto-Illyrian like DNA if anything.


And there is no difference in DNA between Catholic Albanians and Muslims.




Another thing to add, some Albanians that plot more South actually have more Slavic ancestry than some Albanians that plot more North I have come to find out. As long as the ancestry is very distant and dilluted and not too heavy, it is very possible to see a more Slav shifted Albanian South of a less Slav shifted Albanian.

[Xz2k9]

http://img28105.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc79/835126787_Rplot185_122_79lo.jpg
http://img28105.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-3407/loc79/835126787_Rplot185_122_79lo.jpg

btw the Albanian average that you see on this plot, I found it on this forum, some Albanian member calculated it from various results. Kosovars and Ice_T are friends of Albanian user Kelmendasi.

Nice to see me on the map btw :)

[Jana]

...

Every Albanian on earth has Slavic admixture just like every mainland Greek. It's around 30% and it is ancient, commercial calculators are irrelevant here.
Albanians can cluster with Macedonians only if they have Slavic, because I hope you are not saying Macedonians are 0% Slavic.

Gedmatch is completely outdated. Rather use Global 25 with ancient Slavic, Greek and Balkan samples.

You are genetically natives but you are not the same like in antiquity and gene flow between natives and Slavs went both ways.


Some of these Macedonians get almost no East Europe.
Slavic admixture in Bulgarians is in 40% range, Macedonians are not very different.

[Ylla]

What does getting East Europe mean? I might not even have Slavic ancestry it might be a native haplogroup but I'm accepting the probability.
People here are biased towards me focusing on obscure tests that give me east euro that change on every update .. I went from most Balkan on there to highest segment of east europe.. It's obvious if I'm more southern I have more native ancestry wtf!
I don't like being used for other people's agenda.. why not accept your likelihood and probability of having another ancestry?

[Xz2k9]

Every Albanian on earth has Slavic admixture just like every mainland Greek. It's around 30% and it is ancient, commercial calculators are irrelevant here.
Albanians can cluster with Macedonians only if they have Slavic, because I hope you are not saying Macedonians are 0% Slavic.

Gedmatch is completely outdated. Rather use Global 25 with ancient Slavic, Greek and Balkan samples.

You are genetically natives but you are not the same like in antiquity and gene flow between natives and Slavs went both ways.

Every Albanian does not have Slavic, unless you consider EHG as Slavic. So EHG like ancestry sometimes show up as North Slavic on DNA land for example which is what the Bronze Age from Montenegro got. It got mostly Balkan with some minor North Slavic which is probably EHG ancestry.

Slavic ancestry depends on the individual and certainly has nothing to do with clustering. Albanians that get more East Europe than me plot more South for example still. However it's not that significant that it has affected where we plot on a PCA map. It's mostly distant and has been dilluted over hundreds of years.


We don't cluster with Macedonians. It's some Macedonians that cluster with Albanians because some of them have almost no Slavic ancestry. There was a Bronze Age from Montenegro that clustered around where I cluster together with those Kosovars and Macedonians. It was deleted and never uploaded to gedmatch but it was plotting around where we plot.

You claim those Illyrians plot with North Italians but you have a hard time understanding where we plot is also from Illyrians. We plot as North as those samples only East. I cannot understand how Slavic admixture could of made us plot where we plot ?

If anything it's South Slavs like Bulgarians, Serbs and Macedonians that shift towards Albanians which is why they are South of Poland , Ukraine etc. Had they been 80%- 100% natives they would plot with us somewhere. Some Bulgarians and Macedonians end up plotting there due to heavily mix with natives. Other more Slav shifted end up more North.

So according to your logic Illyrians were either like Greeks or like those Bronze Age samples from Croatia ? You clearly just want to make Albanians like Greeks and this disproves your theory pretty much.

We most certainly are the same as in ancient times. Illyria was a huge geographic area and a branch of Illyrians clustered towards Iberia / Italy, another towards Greeks and another East of North Italy like me and those Kosovars. My DNA tests back this up too. But they were the same people that spoke the same language. In many cases they were gathered under same kingdoms that included modern Croatia, Bosnia and all the way down to Albania.

And I'm not talking about calculators. I'm talking about commerial DNA tests like DNA Land, MyOrigins, 23andMe and Peer reviewed studies.

Such as this:


https://i.snipboard.io/etl40C.jpg


Having distant Slavic ancestry isn't gonna make you plot towards South Slavs , you need huge amount of Slavic which would easily show on a DNA test as East European which most Kosovars don't even have.


You would show high IBD sharing with actual East Europeans like Poland, Ukraine etc .



It hasn't gone both ways at all... much more Balkan ancestry has gone into South Slavs than Slavic ancestry has gone into Albanians.


Albos from Montenegro aren't that Slavic shifted as you claimed either. Their north shift has nothing to do with Slavs. You seem to think that every Albanian needs to cluster on the same spot or something or else it's Slavic as I cannot even understand your logic ?

[Jana]

Commercial tests are irrelevant. You get 100% Balkan because reference set is based on modern Balkan populations like Albanians. It just means you are typical for your ethnicity.
There are no Macedonians with almost no Slavic ancestry. There are only Macedonians with less Slavic ancestry than the norm, and they shift towards Albanians.

Thousands of years passed since Bronze Age and populations changed a lot. Fist of all Illyians were shifted south due to Roman admixture.
And Romans were very similar to Greeks, very southern population.

Also Illyrians were not homogenous and tribes in Albania were more southern most likely, as well as admixed with Greeks in border regions like Epirus.
In Kosovo was Illyrian-Thracian border zone so again they were probably different than those BA Dalmatians, more southeastern and in direction of Iron Age Bulgarians.

My point is that nobody on Balkans is pure. That is nationalist BS. Albanians have lest external influence but they still have it.
Albania was overran with Slavic tribes just like Greece and they left their mark.

South Slavs have more native Balkan blood than Albanians have Slavic, but Slavic blood in Albanians is def. not insignificant.
To demonstrate date I will run a model using only ancient samples:

"sample": "Albanian:Average",
"fit": 1.6251,

"GRC_Mycenaean": 40,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 30.83,
"BGR_IA": 22.5,
"HRV_MBA": 6.67,

As you can see Albanians favor ancient Greek and Thracian source over Illyrian one, and early Slav admixture is exactly 30% as I predicted.
This doesn't mean Albanians are mostly Greeks or Thracians but that Illyrians who contributed to Albanian gene pool were more southeastern than Dalmatian ones, which is logical considering geography.

[Xz2k9]

All my ancestors within the last hundreds of years were Albanians. I know my ancestry very well and never needed a DNA test. In Kosovo we used to be Catholics and I even know the name we used. None of my ancestors took any Serbian wife like some Albanians here did. Some Albanians here that have distant Slavic ancestry still plot more South than Albanians like me that don't have it as much, this is very possible because their Native Balkan ancestry was already quite South shifted while mine is North and their Slavic ancestry is distant and dillutted so it doesn't affect plotting at all nor is it part of any significant ancestry. Plenty of DNA tests and family history that confirm this too.


You don't seem to understand even that pre-Slavic Balkan people including Albanians plotted very different over a wide range of area..........


All my Y-DNA's are Albanian. Even my MTDNA seems to be Albanian. And yes Albos from Montenegro shifting that North has nothing to do with Slav ancestry either. It is a pre-Slavic North shift. Even those Illyrians in Croatia were plotting with North Italians. Do they have Slav admixture too ?

We are as North as them , just East of them ........



Yeah, some Macedonians almost have no Slavic ancestry is exactly what I'm saying. Dude's like ***** is a pretty good example and he plots around where I plot (Actually on K15 he was plotting South of me unless I mistook him for someone else) and even his DNA tests confirmed this. Also his Mytrueancestry test gave him nothing Slavic.

I also got Illyrian and Thracian there and Roman for example:

https://i.imgur.com/cXjdbnI.png



Nothing about my results are Slavic. Done dozzens of autosomal tests. Not a single one gave me any East Europe compared to some South Slavs. But you're telling me there is some magical East European ancestry ?

With that logic I could say you have 50% Gypsy ancestry but it ain't showing.


***** got some small East Europe on MyOrigins, but it goes like 2000 years back and even some Albanians get that and they still plot South of me.


These aren't results of people that are Slavic admixed ... South Slavs get things like Scythian and other more Northern things due to East European ancestry.



Albanians that are more South shifted get things like Greek etc.... I didn't get this ...... There is clearly different branches of Albanians .....


Some Tosks and some Southern Ghegs plot as South as Sicilians So any Albanian that plots North of them must be Slav shifted too ?


I know Ylla is trolling but I know you have an agenda to make every Albanian like a Greek when these DNA tests disprove it........






Some pre-Slavic Balkan people basically clustered where we cluster.


That is the cold truth. The sample found in Montenegro was clustering somewhere with us. ...... While a branch of Albanians cluster more South with mainland Greeks and another branch even with Sicilians or Abruzzo .

It would be impossible to have high East European ancestry and plot where me and those Kosovars plot or those Macedonians. It is way too south. And DNA results and ancient DNA findings speak for this too and confirm that I'm right.


You clearly don't understand how plotting even works.








If anything, Albanians that are more North shifted have retained more Proto-Illyrian like DNA while those more South have mixed more with Neolithic like people.........

[Jana]

:picard2:

No point of further discussion, you don't seem to understand any of what I said.
Please buy yourself G25 coordiantes and see for yourself.

[Xz2k9]

I don't even know why I'm typing all this crap as I could just show you the PCA MAP but now I see it was removed from the Albanian forum but I found the paper of that sample and could possibly try and add it onto gedmatch or get someone to do it.

[Jana]

I don't even know why I'm typing all this crap as I could just show you the PCA MAP but now I see it was removed from the Albanian forum but I found the paper of that sample and could possibly try and add it onto gedmatch or get someone to do it.

PCA is also a bad tool. Half Norwegian half Romanian user cluster with Austrians but he has nothing to do with them genetically neither he descends from them.
On Global 25 you have Illyrian samples from Croatia and as I said you can show how close you are to them because such tool is much more advanced than gedmatch is.

As for *****, he has plenty of Slavic ancestry and just because he plots south has nothing to do.
His Balkan part could be much more southern than yours so if he adds more Slavic on top of that he can come out similar to you or even more southern, but you don't have that similar ancestry.

His quote on Macedonians:


I would say a Slavic - Ancient Balkan mix....
And depends, which Macedonians we are speaking of, if we speak about Macedonians living close to Kosovo and Albania, it's an Illyrian - Slavic mix, while those of the South are ancient Macedonian - Slavic mix...

Also:


I have 40 Polish matches, 11 are with four grandparents from Poland

[vbnetkhio]

PCA is also a bad tool. Half Norwegian half Romanian user cluster with Austrians

it's not bad. you can only fit so much information into 2 dimensions. on a pca you plot exactly between the elements you are are a mix of. in t-sne you cluster with those actually similar to you, but there is no information about mixing.

[Xz2k9]

The Bronze Age sample was not from Montenegro actually, my mistake...... it was from Dalmatia or from Jazinka (Its in Dalmatia I think) . It was found there and it plotted totally different from those found in Croatia later .. It plotted more East .... I got a screen shot of the map to show you this .....



the map is viewed like this in case you don't understand north <---- ----> south and not up wards like that ^


https://i.imgur.com/51ULvy5.jpg

Its basically plotting with Albanians, Greeks, and Bulgarians but its a bit more North than those Albanians and Greeks though you could find Albanians that plot there too . lots of Kosovars and Albos from Montenegro for example .... that even shift very East.

By your logic , its impossible to plot with Bulgarians or Macedonians unless you are Slavic admixed ? This sample is pretty much plotting there.

It looks to actually be even more East than I am. And I know some Albos that plot there.


Would be nice to get it's data and add it onto gedmatch, here is the paper;

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/303044230_Preliminary_results_of_a_prehistoric_hum an_ancient_DNA_time_series_from_coastal_and_hinter land_Croatia


The paper claims its plotting close to Croatians which it really isn't from the looks of it.




Totally debunks that pre-Slavic people in Croatia were all clustering with North Italians ..... this one looks wayyyyyyyyyyyyy more East . :D





This sample looks to even be more North than me maybe ? who knows ....... but you can see it's plotting with Bulgarians ..... Same way lots of Kosovars plot with Bulgarians and Macedonians .... which again shows my point that it has nothing to do with Slavic ancestry in us plotting with those people as even backed up by other DNA tests ......

Those other samples found in Croatia were just as North, they were just plotting far West.


Vucedol sample was more East than those others but not as East as this one .... but it wasn't too far away from some really West shifted Kosovars that I know ....

[Jana]

^^^^^meaningless.

We don't know composition of that sample. As I said plotting has nothing to do with ancestry. I plot with Stears but we have totally different ancestry and we are not related.
You don't seem to grasp basics of genetics.

This PCA tells absolutely nothing about genetic closeness between that sample and Bulgarians.
I posted model on Albanians but you seem to ignored it.

Go ahead and prove us you are pure Illyrian, pay 12 dollars to Davidski and compare yourself to those samples which are all available on G25.
I bet you won't be so close to them as you think and it will be demonstrated with a rather poor fit.

[Xz2k9]

It's not so much that Albanians plot with Macedonians and Bulgarians it's more so that some really South shifted Macedonians and Bulgarians plot with Northern shifted Albanians basically ....


Macedonians and Bulgarians that are more Slavic admixed plot more North of course. But you can see the sample plots with Bulgarians who are South shifted Bulgarians possibly ..... as I see some other Bulgarians there also shift North towards Croatia

[Jana]

it's not bad. you can only fit so much information into 2 dimensions. on a pca you plot exactly between the elements you are are a mix of. in t-sne you cluster with those actually similar to you, but there is no information about mixing.

That is why it is bad, only 2 dimensions and very limited.

[Xz2k9]

^^^^^meaningless.

We don't know composition of that sample. As I said plotting has nothing to do with ancestry. I plot with Stears but we have totally different ancestry and we are not related.
You don't seem to grasp basics of genetics.

This PCA tells absolutely nothing about genetic closeness between that sample and Bulgarians.
I posted model on Albanians but you seem to ignored it.

Go ahead and prove us you are pure Illyrian, pay 12 dollars to Davidski and compare yourself to those samples which are all available on G25.
I bet you won't be so close to them as you think and it will be demonstrated with a rather poor fit.

It's not meaningless at all... .you can see that the sample isn't plotting with North Italians .... it's far more East and plotting with Bulgarians like lots of modern Albanians do that are north shifted ... you could probably add Macedonians there too...... You said anyone that plots with Macedonians must be Slav admixed which also applied to Bulgarians.... you can clearly see Bulgarians are clustering there with that sample ......


As for everything else you said, it is totally out of topic .... now you're trying to claim I'm not close to those samples found in Croatia which of course I know I'm not but I'm closer to them than any modern South Slav , especially Croatian , they also carried same Y-DNA as Albanians ..... but this one seems to be closest to us ...


Same way I'm not close to some really South shifted Albanians that plot with Sicilians or Abruzzo yet we are still Albanians .....




Yes. I am a pure Illyrian. My North shift has nothing to do with Slavs. As seen also by these results and by my genetic results.


Illyrians weren't all people that plotted the same. Same way Albanians don't plot the same.


Those samples found in Croatia were more West but they were just as North as us .....



A Thracian found in Bulgaria was plotting South of Tuscans , another one found was plotting much more North towards Bulgarians .....

[Jana]

It's not meaningless at all... .you can see that the sample isn't plotting with North Italians .... it's far more East and plotting with Bulgarians like lots of modern Albanians do that are north shifted ... you could probably add Macedonians there too...... You said anyone that plots with Macedonians must be Slav admixed which also applied to Bulgarians.... you can clearly see Bulgarians are clustering there with that sample ......

As for everything else you said, it is totally out of topic .... now you're trying to claim I'm not close to those samples found in Croatia which of course I know I'm not but I'm closer to them than any modern South Slav , especially Croatian , they also carried same Y-DNA as Albanians ..... but this one seems to be closest to us ...

Same way I'm not close to some really South shifted Albanians that plot with Sicilians or Abruzzo yet we are still Albanians .....


Yes. I am a pure Illyrian. My North shift has nothing to do with Slavs. As seen also by these results and by my genetic results.

Illyrians weren't all people that plotted the same. Same way Albanians don't plot the same.

Those samples found in Croatia were more West but they were just as North as us .....

A Thracian found in Bulgaria was plotting South of Tuscans , another one found was plotting much more North towards Bulgarians .....

Bulgarians are Thracians + Slavs mostly, but not only, they are not Illyrians and they are certanly not related to that sample that is just artifically close to them due to similar ratio of southern and northern genes.
Pre-Slavs in Bulgaria were more southeastern than in Croatia. Won't repeat anymore PCA is only 2 dimensional tool showing people unrelated to each other plotting togheder just because their components have some vague similarity.

You can go and prove you have no Slavic admix, tools are there so it is up to you.
And your northern plotting has nothing to do with Slavic admixture.

You can plot more northern but be less Slavic than southern shifted Albanian indeed, and that is only thing I agree with you.
What I claim is that it is impossible to find Albanian without Slavic admixture when they test with ancient samples in Global 25.

In Balkans everyone has Slavic admixture, only Greek Islanders don't.

[vbnetkhio]

...

2-9k snps? that's horrible quality. 400 k would be "ok" quality
such low quality samples score weird in calculators and plot weirdly on pcas.

[Xz2k9]

:picard2:

No point of further discussion, you don't seem to understand any of what I said.
Please buy yourself G25 coordiantes and see for yourself.




You're really an ignorant person ....... And I'm wasting my time with you. I'm gonna keep this mature. As I have all the evidence on my side. And lots of things you haven't answered.



Why would I waste my money on some calculator when I will get nothing Slavic ? Just to show me that those samples in Croatia aren't close to me ? As if that would prove of me having any Slavic blood.... I have done dozzens of autosomal tests and no East Europe. What more do you want ? Some stupid calculator made by a Polak against commercial autosomal tests with millions of samples ?


For such calculators to be accurate you need to add a wide range of samples first also as it just gives you whichever fits best out of those which doesn't always correlate to ancestry.



It's not that it bothers me to have Slavic ancestry but it's because people like you have an agenda to make us like Greeks.


Slavic ancestry in Albanians isn't that huge and hasn't contributed in shifting Albanians more North. You can even have people that plot more South that show it more distantly. The difference in Albanians in plotting is largely pre-Slavic .


Even pre-Slavic words in Croatia have meaning in the Albanian language ........ HYLLINI, DALMATAE, ABRI, ARBI .... all Proto-Albanian words ..........


those samples found in Croatia are just a small branch of where Illyrians clustered which is why you even have Albanians that cluster with mainland Greece. Sicily, ABruzzo etc.. Not because they are mixed with Greeks but because that's where some Illyrians also clustered.

Same way a branch of Illyrians probably clustered where me and those Kosovars, Macedonians and Bulgarians clustered. You can see it is clustering with Bulgarians that other one ..... lots of Albanians cluster there ......


Illyria was a large geographic area.....


You can find Albanians plot all over the place ........... all the way down to Sicily or Abruzzo and even more South than Mainaland Greeks ........... all these difference in plotting in Albanians is PRE-SLAVIC



How else would you explain these differences ?



Those Bulgarians and Macedonians that plot with Kosovars usually have very little Slavic ancestry. And not so much Kosovars having Slavic ancestry .....






I'm wasting my time ....... But you can clearly see that sample found in Croatia is PLOTTING WITH BULGARIANS WHERE LOTS OF ALBANIANS CLUSTER TOO


It could possibly even be more North...... Lots of Romanians cluster there too ..... Albos from Montenegro shift that North.




Lots of Thracians that clustered all over these places probably too ......




You have been debunked because you claimed any Albanian that clusters with Macedonians and Bulgarians must be Slavic admixed when I showed you a Ancient sample that clusters there with them.



Those Macedonians and Bulgarians that plot with us are very South shifted and have little Slavic ancestry.... more Slav shifted Macedonians and Bulgarians actually plot more North with Serbs etc.

[Jana]

^^^^You seem to be mentally ill.
Please get off your high horse and learn some manners. I am not trying to show Albanians like Greeks lmao. I am interested in truth.

You speak Chinese, I speak English.

You also seem completely ignorant of G25. It is not some stupid calculator, it's a new generation ancestry tool with hundreds of ancient and modern samples.

Last time: plotting with somebody doesn't mean anything. I plot with Hungarians and Austrians on K15 PCA and I am very different from them in reality.
Bulgarians are not genetically Illyrian at all and neither are North Italians.

[Xz2k9]

It is plotting 100% With Bulgarians where lots of Northern shifted Albanians also plot .... on lots of calculators I even get Bulgarian really close .....

I could even show you Southern Albanians that aren't close to me ...... does this now mean we aren't all Albanians .......... ?

A Southern Albanians was getting on gedmatch Sicily as top match while I get much more Northern areas like North Italy, Tuscany, Bulgaria, Romania etc.


Those samples in Croatia were the same people as Albanians regardless where they plot because Illyrian cluster was huge but they shared a common origin and spoke the same language .... how else could they of been united under the same kingdoms ? they must of spoken a common language ...... but you can clearly see it is plotting with Bulgarians and lots of Albos plot there too ...... Lots of Macedonians too .... And even lots of Romanians ...... It debunks what you said that you need Slavic admixture to plot with Bulgarians or Macedonians.



you are just butthurt that sample from Croatia is plotting with Bulgarians :D



Typical hyper nationalist :D

[vbnetkhio]

That is why it is bad, only 2 dimensions and very limited.


^^^^You seem to be mentally ill.
Please get off your high horse and learn some manners. I am not trying to show Albanians like Greeks lmao. I am interested in truth.

You speak Chinese, I speak English.

You also seem completely ignorant of G25. It is not some stupid calculator, it's a new generation ancestry tool with hundreds of ancient and modern samples.

Last time: plotting with somebody doesn't mean anything. I plot with Hungarians and Austrians on K15 PCA and I am very different from them in reality.
Bulgarians are not genetically Illyrian at all and neither are North Italians.

yeah, you can't look at your position pca and bring any conclusions about your admixture from that.
but pca is the best tool when you have a large collection of samples and want an overview of all of them.

[Jana]

It is plotting 100% With Bulgarians where lots of Northern shifted Albanians also plot .... on lots of calculators I even get Bulgarian really close .....

I could even show you Southern Albanians that aren't close to me ...... does this now mean we aren't all Albanians .......... ?

A Southern Albanians was getting on gedmatch Sicily as top match while I get much more Northern areas like North Italy, Tuscany, Bulgaria, Romania etc.

Those samples in Croatia were the same people as Albanians regardless where they plot because Illyrian cluster was huge but they shared a common origin and spoke the same language .... how else could they of been united under the same kingdoms ? they must of spoken a common language ...... but you can clearly see it is plotting with Bulgarians and lots of Albos plot there too ...... Lots of Macedonians too .... And even lots of Romanians ...... It debunks what you said that you need Slavic admixture to plot with Bulgarians or Macedonians.

you are just butthurt that sample from Croatia is plotting with Bulgarians :D

Typical hyper nationalist :D

You have nothing to do with Bulgarians. Mortimer plots with Caucasians, he must be a Georgian :laugh:

[Jana]

Albanian user post from yesterday, this is a model created by one TA/Anthrogenica user, not the ideal one but to show rough estimates of Slavic and pre-Slavic ancestry on Balkans:

https://i.postimg.cc/nhggYTP1/4-F2-B62-AD-5-FFC-4-B32-BF95-29068-E51-E9-DB.png

Target: MagnusDark_scaled
Distance: 2.2811% / 0.02281091
Aggregated
44.4 Pre-Slavic_Greek_World
31.8 SlavicMigration
23.8 Pre-Slavic_Thracian_World

[Xz2k9]

Macedonians show high IBD sharing with Albanians rather than East Europeans.

This sample that plotted with Bulgarians was like 80%-90% Balkan or something on DNA LAND, minor Sardinian and some minor North Slavic if I remember correctly.



It's almost 100% like a modern Albanian. But its plotting very north from the looks of it.... probably around with the Northenmost shifted Albanians.

It's genetic results even mimic some really Southern shifted South Slavs who get high Balkan and minor North Slavic such as Vojnik and Bosniensis.... though this is probably due to the later Slavic influx and Slavs heavily mixing with natives and introducing more such components + mixing with Balkan people. This is also obvious because I2a1b was brought by later Slavic migrations + high IBD sharing with East Europeans in Croats, Serbs, Bosniaks etc....





Pre-Slavic people of the Balkans spoke a similar language or same as Proto-Albanian than any other modern Balkan language .... All those Macedonians clustering with Ghegs, their ancestors spoke a Proto-Albanian language prior to Slavicization or some related language like Thracian.


This is why the whole fetish of South Slavs with native Balkan people but hate for Albanians makes no sense..... I guess it's what nationalism does to you ..... you invent illusions of what those people were like ....

[Xz2k9]

Here is another map of me and some Albanian TA users here. There were much more members added before that even plotted with Romanian and East wards and one that plotted South of Tuscans and some even North of me....

But my point is you must be clueless to think that any Albanian that plots East of North Italy must be Slavic admixed.

https://i.imgur.com/4vEC9YX.jpg

Where we plot isn't even North. I don't know what kind of an idiot even invented this lie. It started with some former Albanian members here.


Those samples found in Croatia were just as North, they were just plotting far West..... the Vucedol was plotting far West of me and those Albos for example

https://i.imgur.com/SItLIkm.png


Those samples in Dalmatia were plotting more North of this sample and into Cataluna / Spanish. One of them is as North as Romanian average on K15 for example.

https://i.imgur.com/l3vQ8Wu.png


While this other one that is plotting with Bulgarians should more or less plot somewhere around with us if I'm not mistaken, maybe even more North ? Who knows ? But you can clearly see it's more East than those others and plotting with Bulgarians.

But you're somehow trying to tell me any Albanian that plots North of mainland Greeks must be magically Slav admixed ? :lol:


Even some Romanians touch that cluster with Kosovars etc and not just Macedonians or Bulgarians.


Native Balkan people could of plotted all the way with Romanian average. I have seen some Albanians even touch that cluster.

Clearly there must of been a line for how North pre-Slavic people could of clustered since Serbs, Bosniaks, Croats all have East European ancestry as shown also by IBD sharing and they shift more South than East European people so they must of mixed with a more Southern shifted population to become more South.

So if there is a Bronze Age that ends up as North as some South Slavs it possibly means Bronze Age samples aren't a good example of how pre-Slavic people were like possibly and that it's a coincidence , however, in this case where some of these samples plot , including Kosovars, Macedonians etc is still within range of a Native Balkan cluster that could explain the rest of the genetic make up of other Balkan people.


Some South Slavs touching a Pre-Slavic Balkan cluster could be a coincidence which I cannot explain right now but it's possible. It doesn't mean they are pure natives.


Macedonians can have Slavic ancestry and still cluster with Albanians, so do Bulgarians, none of them are pure natives..... There was another cluster that showed some of them cluster with Albanians on K15..... Some could end up clustering with Northernmost Albos and still have Slav ancestry due to their Native Balkan side being quite South shifted possibly.


It's also possible that Illyrians and native people could of had different North and South shifts depending in what region of the Balkans and how much Neolithic like ancestry they absorbed for example.



My response was mostly to you, Feiichy, as I've seen some of your other threads and I cannot possibly understand your logic...... :S


This is a forum discussion after all but it's filled with trolls like many other forums.

[bained]

My albanian friend, don't even try to deny the holy Slavism on these forums.
Any amount of steppe, EHG, CHG, ANE or anything that distinguish Balkan people from Neolithic farmers is automatically attributed to the Slavs. These people deny 3000 years of migration of different tribes, that most of the time were hating and killing each other. Just check the Bulgarian case: we have all kinds of records and history about the Bulgars (Proto-Bulgars), but the person you are arguing is favoring Thracian+Slavic model. Scythian_Moldova are always forgotten, the Gepid, the Alan, the Yamnaya_Bulgaria, the Z93 bronze age in BG and many other samples are left behind to favor some Slavic_Bohemia or Avar(which they call slav for circular logic reasons).
TL;DR
No such thing as Slavs.

[MagnusDark]

What does getting East Europe mean? I might not even have Slavic ancestry it might be a native haplogroup but I'm accepting the probability.
People here are biased towards me focusing on obscure tests that give me east euro that change on every update .. I went from most Balkan on there to highest segment of east europe.. It's obvious if I'm more southern I have more native ancestry wtf!
I don't like being used for other people's agenda.. why not accept your likelihood and probability of having another ancestry?

There’s still quite a bit we do not know about the Middle Ages and earlier. Some proto thracian came out Swedish like mixed with caucasus like. Other ancient Scythians and Sarmatian samples were polish or Baltic like. This is why I wouldn’t take autosomal admixture too seriously. Whilst slavs definitely introduced more Eastern Euro/Baltic like admixture, the idea all Eastern admixture in Albanians is exclusively introduced by slavs is their wet dream the same way as a Greek users try and claim EEF admixture in Albanians is from Greeks. They’re just LARPing.

So many R1a/I2a Albanians are also yet to do bigY, so nothing is definitive from a YDNA side of things either. Among mine there is also another Albanian haplotype discovered in the South in L1029, and potentially Z280 as well.

There was also Z284 in a couple of Albanians from Montenegro. I2a1a in Diber Madhe(celtic branch of I2a1.
Diber is very unique in haplotypes. So far every J2b-L283 line there is different, including barbarian lineages like R1a(my case). Eventually I plan to help contribute to other areas but I we are already fleshing out this haplotype. BigY testing is the way to go. Autosomal is still in its infancy but we will understand it eventually.

We still don’t have a definitive proto slavic sample to know what they actually looked like admixture wise. Whilst still slavic admixed, Bulgarians and Macedonians are the least slavic if southern Slavs and cluster closer to Greeks and in some cases Albanian. Some say this is due to slavic admixture in Greeks. Maybe so. However, the average bulgarian or macedonian has between 40-50 EEF ancestry whereas average Albanian 60-75 give or take region to region.

Autosomal methods are a growing science. There is a Central European study coming in a few years that will span the early Middle Ages from 400-900CE. 6000 graves. It will tell us a lot given it will unite all scientific disciplines for this mammoth study. May shed light on barbarian migration in the early Middle Ages. And into the balkans.

[MagnusDark]

Commercial tests are irrelevant. You get 100% Balkan because reference set is based on modern Balkan populations like Albanians. It just means you are typical for your ethnicity.
There are no Macedonians with almost no Slavic ancestry. There are only Macedonians with less Slavic ancestry than the norm, and they shift towards Albanians.

Thousands of years passed since Bronze Age and populations changed a lot. Fist of all Illyians were shifted south due to Roman admixture.
And Romans were very similar to Greeks, very southern population.

Also Illyrians were not homogenous and tribes in Albania were more southern most likely, as well as admixed with Greeks in border regions like Epirus.
In Kosovo was Illyrian-Thracian border zone so again they were probably different than those BA Dalmatians, more southeastern and in direction of Iron Age Bulgarians.

My point is that nobody on Balkans is pure. That is nationalist BS. Albanians have lest external influence but they still have it.
Albania was overran with Slavic tribes just like Greece and they left their mark.

South Slavs have more native Balkan blood than Albanians have Slavic, but Slavic blood in Albanians is def. not insignificant.
To demonstrate date I will run a model using only ancient samples:

"sample": "Albanian:Average",
"fit": 1.6251,

"GRC_Mycenaean": 40,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 30.83,
"BGR_IA": 22.5,
"HRV_MBA": 6.67,

As you can see Albanians favor ancient Greek and Thracian source over Illyrian one, and early Slav admixture is exactly 30% as I predicted.
This doesn't mean Albanians are mostly Greeks or Thracians but that Illyrians who contributed to Albanian gene pool were more southeastern than Dalmatian ones, which is logical considering geography.

Only 2 Illyrian samples. One of which is proto Illyrian. Mind you their paternal marker is found predominantly in Albanians. Also only 2 confirmed samples with a 3rd albeit poor quality sample in Montenegro is highly inconclusive to make broad generalizations as to what Illyrians were like. We still have no Classical Greek, Ancient Macedonian, Epirote, Dardanian or Southern Illyrian dna to make any solid assumptions.

I and my father shift closely to UKR_CimmerianMJ12 who was supposedly a Getae/Thracian. Should I arrogantly assume I’m descended from Thracians?

I could merely have received extra EEF that makes me more like the sample than the average. That is all.

You’re also ignoring that many Sarmatian and Scythian samples were slavic or Baltic “like”. You’re over estimating the contribution of Slavs and underestimating the additional steppe admixture preceding their arrival. Including admixtures brought by East Germanics who heavily raided South Albanian coastal areas , west Macedonia and Eastern Albania. They likely brought Baltic and east euro admixture as well.

Romans were not a homogenous people and many balkan roman samples were just that, native romanized balkan populations. We have no Rome proper samples as far as I am aware. Most of them were balkan romans or barbarian admixed romans.

Even a Visigoth came up “Slavic” admixed. Slavs are not a homogenous people. Probably weren’t then either.

Slavs surely shifted balkan populations further north and east, not as significantly as you believe. Most r1a/I2a also remains at low resolution so we need big y to determine haplotypes origin and spread Among their non slavic carriers.

[Xz2k9]

What does getting East Europe mean? I might not even have Slavic ancestry it might be a native haplogroup but I'm accepting the probability.
People here are biased towards me focusing on obscure tests that give me east euro that change on every update .. I went from most Balkan on there to highest segment of east europe.. It's obvious if I'm more southern I have more native ancestry wtf!
I don't like being used for other people's agenda.. why not accept your likelihood and probability of having another ancestry?

You mean the old MyOrigins where every average Albanian was getting 20% - 30% East Europe and 20%-30% Asia Minor aka Middle East ? Yeah, most of that wasn't actual East European or Middle Eastern ancestry and their update showed this and it's much more accurate and fits with IBD sharing as shown by peer reviewed studies. The average Albanian isn't 20%-30% Slavic or even East European. The genetic make up of Albanian people would look very much different then and the plotting would be very different. For me other than that, these results have been consistent for the most part.


I never used you as an example or for an agenda but it seems like you did with me despite my results show otherwise. But I know you're a troll anyway. It's not like I have it any more than you do or any person here but you people seem to insist somehow that we do despite you have absolutely no evidence to show me ? I have seen Albanians on that test get way more East Europe than any of us ever do and still plot more South if it helps you.

I'm not accepting something that I don't really have any more than you or anybody that plots South of me does also for the sake of the argument that I believe that I'm correct too. These people also have an agenda to make us like Greeks and anything that doesn't suit their nationalism. There is no evidence that I have it other than some plot of East of North Italy which is rather hilarious . I find it hilarious that an any Albanian that just plots North of mainland Greece is automatically attributed to having Slavic admixture. That is pathetic. Where we cluster isn't even North. It's within range of a native Balkan cluster.

Those samples in Croatia were North too. They just plot West of us. Which I showed if you actually be so kind and look at my post above.... Do they have Slavic admixture too ?


The other sample seems to plot with Bulgarians, also North of mainland Greece..... so they have magical Slav admixture too ? :picard1:


This is absolutely nonsense.


It's clearly that lots of Illyrians were never like mainland Greeks but were always more North and these Northern plots of Albanians aren't attributed to Slavs is my point.

[Xz2k9]

Commercial tests are irrelevant. You get 100% Balkan because reference set is based on modern Balkan populations like Albanians. It just means you are typical for your ethnicity.
There are no Macedonians with almost no Slavic ancestry. There are only Macedonians with less Slavic ancestry than the norm, and they shift towards Albanians.

Thousands of years passed since Bronze Age and populations changed a lot. Fist of all Illyians were shifted south due to Roman admixture.
And Romans were very similar to Greeks, very southern population.

Also Illyrians were not homogenous and tribes in Albania were more southern most likely, as well as admixed with Greeks in border regions like Epirus.
In Kosovo was Illyrian-Thracian border zone so again they were probably different than those BA Dalmatians, more southeastern and in direction of Iron Age Bulgarians.

My point is that nobody on Balkans is pure. That is nationalist BS. Albanians have lest external influence but they still have it.
Albania was overran with Slavic tribes just like Greece and they left their mark.

South Slavs have more native Balkan blood than Albanians have Slavic, but Slavic blood in Albanians is def. not insignificant.
To demonstrate date I will run a model using only ancient samples:

"sample": "Albanian:Average",
"fit": 1.6251,

"GRC_Mycenaean": 40,
"HUN_Avar_Szolad": 30.83,
"BGR_IA": 22.5,
"HRV_MBA": 6.67,

As you can see Albanians favor ancient Greek and Thracian source over Illyrian one, and early Slav admixture is exactly 30% as I predicted.
This doesn't mean Albanians are mostly Greeks or Thracians but that Illyrians who contributed to Albanian gene pool were more southeastern than Dalmatian ones, which is logical considering geography.

No, that's not why we get 100% Balkan..... We are genetically South European people..... We should get large amounts of East Europe even if it was set to Albanian people. There also peer reviewed studies that show this that we are South European.... They match IBD with East European populations. So do lots of these commercial tests regardless who they set the population too...... it is irrelevant .... you don't even understand how they work. Lots of these don't just have Albanians as reference but the whole Balkans yet they still identify East European like gene flow well.

These commercial tests that have millions of people in their databases are much more reliable than some calculators made by some armchair scientists.


As for the rest of what you said, you clearly haven't read anything I have typed and you're just going off the road.

Albanians don't match Thracian or Ancient Greek better because it depends what Albanians samples you use as we are not all identical.... some Albanians will match those samples found in Croatia better, while some will match Ancient Greek better or Thracian etc.

Those are just random samples you used. Here I tried to explain to you all this that not every Albanian is identical but you end up posting some calculator with some random samples as if we're all the same. On some calculators I don't even match Albanians well. Of course your comment was TU by a Serb :lol: :thumb001: But in reality there is no truth to what you said.

No evidence of significant Roman admixture in Albanians or Balkanites.


I don't match Ancient Greek better... And now that we see a sample from Croatia plotting with Bulgarians, lots of Albanians will match that well too. It is plotting more East than those others in Croatia, more towards the Albanian cluster.... proves again my point.



Also, Illyrians never mixed with Greeks. Mainland Greece was largely inhabited by Illyrians and Thracians up until their Hellenization.




The fact that you believe Albanians actually match Ancient Greek and Thracian better shows you're clearly have a tremendous agenda when you should know by now it depends on what Albanians and even what ancient samples and where they were found. Especially when you see that we plot very different from each other.... Your post is absolutely irrelevant in this case.




As for Thracians, we do have Thracian samples that clustered with lots of Albanians and was getting 99% Balkan on DNA Land if that helps but so did Illyrians in Albanian areas probably and going by evidence; So did some in Croatia.



Southern shifted Albanians will get Illyrian when they find more South shifted Illyrians in more South of the Balkans I am pretty sure...... those people were identical in that case to some of these Thracians and Ancient Greeks possibly.


Your whole argument is also based on some samples from Croatia as if they represent the whole Illyrian cluster ......

[MagnusDark]

Albanian user post from yesterday, this is a model created by one TA/Anthrogenica user, not the ideal one but to show rough estimates of Slavic and pre-Slavic ancestry on Balkans:

https://i.postimg.cc/nhggYTP1/4-F2-B62-AD-5-FFC-4-B32-BF95-29068-E51-E9-DB.png

Target: MagnusDark_scaled
Distance: 2.2811% / 0.02281091
Aggregated
44.4 Pre-Slavic_Greek_World
31.8 SlavicMigration
23.8 Pre-Slavic_Thracian_World

Just a run using a basic 4 pop model. It’s called his K4. Populations are removed to find algorithms that simplify and explain things. They are hardly to be taken as gospel truth. I get 30 percent “Slavic” on that calc yet plot further south than any Slav. There’s a number of calculators that illustration quite the opposite. So the calculator is using slavic as proxy for steppe. Pretty basic. My cousin is Albanian and his wife Finnish. Kid comes out Montenegrin in calculators. Should I assume now he’s Montenegrin and not half Finnish and half Albanian?

I wouldn’t take calculators all too literally. They can say a lot as you can see here.

pen=0

"distance%=3.035"

MagnusDark_scaled

Balkans_IA,79.6
Baltic_IA,9.6
England_IA,8.8
Pakistan_Butkara_IA,1.4
Turkmenistan_IA,0.6

"distance%=3.4328"


MagnusDark_scaled


ILLYRII,48.8
GRAECI,26.2
ITALI,25

Fit - 3.387
Greek-Albanian - 98.33
Iberian - 0.83
Sicilian-Maltese - 0.83

"distance%=1.8822"

MagnusDark(as you can see, adding other steppe admixed population, the algorithm selects the closest match)

GRECO-ROMAN,45
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN,40
IBERIAN,8.8
SLAVIC,4
BALTIC,1.6
VIKING-EAST,0.6

MagnusDark_”fit": 3.2012,
"MACEDONIAN-THRACIAN": 45,
"ILLYRIAN": 29.17,
"GREEK": 13.33,
"PANNONIAN": 6.67,
"PONTIC-BALTIC": 3.33,
"NORTHWESTERN-IRANIAN": 1.67,
"BALTIC": 0.83

"closestDistances": [
"MACEDONIAN-THRACIAN:undefined: 3.780329",
"ILLYRIAN:undefined: 4.102382",
"GREEK:undefined: 6.569086",
"PANNONIAN:undefined: 7.513800",
"CELTIC-SOUTHEAST:undefined: 9.883884",
"IBERIAN:undefined: 10.058478",
"PONTIC-CAUCASIAN:undefined: 10.678822",

Target: MagnusDark_scaled
Distance: 1.8227% / 0.01822686
Aggregated
44.8 Hellenes
18.4 Getae
17.0 Baltics
16.2 Goths
2.0 Thracians
1.6 Slavs

Target: MagnusDark_scaled
Distance: 2.2811% / 0.02281091
Aggregated
44.4 Pre-Slavic_Greek_World
31.8 SlavicMigration
23.8 Pre-Slavic_Thracian_World

Some ancient g25 runs Plus mine:


Minoan (Lassithi)
Distance: 2.1814%
86.6 - Anatolian_Barcin_N
13.0 - CHG
0.4 - Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Thracian
Distance: 2.5591%
72.4 - Anatolian_Barcin_N
24.2 - Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
3.4 - CHG

Mycenaean
Distance: 2.2264%
75.6 - Anatolian_Barcin_N
13.0 - CHG
11.4 - Yamnaya_RUS Samara

Early Bronze Age Croatian
Distance: 2.9443%
59.0 - Anatolian_Barcin_N
31.2 - Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
5.2 - CHG
4.6 - WHG

MagnusDark_Distance: 3.0487%
63.6 - Anatolian_Barcin_N
32.8 - Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.8 - CHG
1.8 - WHG


Average Albanian
Distance: 2.6002%
59.8 - Anatolian_Barcin_N
35.6 - Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.6 - CHG
2.0 WHG

[Xz2k9]

Only 2 Illyrian samples. One of which is proto Illyrian. Mind you their paternal marker is found predominantly in Albanians. Also only 2 confirmed samples with a 3rd albeit poor quality sample in Montenegro is highly inconclusive to make broad generalizations as to what Illyrians were like. We still have no Classical Greek, Ancient Macedonian, Epirote, Dardanian or Southern Illyrian dna to make any solid assumptions.

I and my father shift closely to UKR_CimmerianMJ12 who was supposedly a Getae/Thracian. Should I arrogantly assume I’m descended from Thracians?

I could merely have received extra EEF that makes me more like the sample than the average. That is all.

You’re also ignoring that many Sarmatian and Scythian samples were slavic or Baltic “like”. You’re over estimating the contribution of Slavs and underestimating the additional steppe admixture preceding their arrival. Including admixtures brought by East Germanics who heavily raided South Albanian coastal areas , west Macedonia and Eastern Albania. They likely brought Baltic and east euro admixture as well.

Romans were not a homogenous people and many balkan roman samples were just that, native romanized balkan populations. We have no Rome proper samples as far as I am aware. Most of them were balkan romans or barbarian admixed romans.

Even a Visigoth came up “Slavic” admixed. Slavs are not a homogenous people. Probably weren’t then either.

Slavs surely shifted balkan populations further north and east, not as significantly as you believe. Most r1a/I2a also remains at low resolution so we need big y to determine haplotypes origin and spread Among their non slavic carriers.

Not sure why you refer to those samples as Proto-Illyrian as their autosomal might not of changed though it's possible it also changed but I cannot see how they possibly could of ended up more South ALL TOGETHER....... By the Bronze Age, Illyrians had already formed as a people..... also look at the PCA MAPS I posted of the ones found in Croatia plotting with North Italy to prove my point and look at the one clustering with Bulgarians and compare it to modern Albanians and somehow tell me any Albo plotting north of Mainland Greeks is Slav shifted ? :lol:



That is absolutely hilarious ................

[Xz2k9]

Albanian user post from yesterday, this is a model created by one TA/Anthrogenica user, not the ideal one but to show rough estimates of Slavic and pre-Slavic ancestry on Balkans:

https://i.postimg.cc/nhggYTP1/4-F2-B62-AD-5-FFC-4-B32-BF95-29068-E51-E9-DB.png

Target: MagnusDark_scaled
Distance: 2.2811% / 0.02281091
Aggregated
44.4 Pre-Slavic_Greek_World
31.8 SlavicMigration
23.8 Pre-Slavic_Thracian_World

My god you people are insane with these nonsense calculators...... These calculators just give you anything back that they have the closest to ... they don't add enough reference populations overall etc..... they just added those samples and it gives you whatever it has the closest... it's not to be taken as actual ancestry ..... if you actually add a wide range of populations and people no Albanian is gonna get that high Slavic.....


the guy doesn't have 30% Slavic nor does any ethnic Albanian ...... unless his recent relative was a Slav...... Most Albanians have some minor distant Slavic ancestry that might show up as ''East Europe'' on MyOrigins (a test which goes 2000 years back) but other than that it has been dillutted over many generations and has never affected where you plot on some PCA MAP whatsoever ..... This is why even on the old 23andme or DNA LAND no Albanian ever got any significant East Europe / North Slavic .....




You're taking these stupid calculators serious ? ahahahhaahhahaah.


My god.... you people here talk a lot of nonsense .......




And even those people on Eupedia claiming modern Balkanites aren't like Ancient when it's clear lots of Albanians are,, add Greeks to the picture ... and lots of Bulgarians and Macedonians heavily mixed with natives fall into this cluster basically ....



You're just mad that sample is clustering with Bulgarians :D bahaaahhaahhaha.



I know you have an agenda . you're butthurt Illyrians in Croatia could be like Albos and you wanna make us like Greeks and claim anyone else is Slav shifted ...... I know this very well ........ youre just some hyper nationalist like most people here anyway ....


You actually think Illyrians in Croatia were like North Italians ..... :lol:

Yeah, they spoke Italiano :lol:

[MagnusDark]

Not sure why you refer to those samples as Proto-Illyrian as their autosomal might not of changed though it's possible it also changed but I cannot see how they possibly could of ended up more South ALL TOGETHER....... By the Bronze Age, Illyrians had already formed as a people..... also look at the PCA MAPS I posted of the ones found in Croatia plotting with North Italy to prove my point and look at the one clustering with Bulgarians and compare it to modern Albanians and somehow tell me any Albo plotting north of Mainland Greeks is Slav shifted ? :lol:



That is absolutely hilarious ................

I wasn’t responding to you. Read my posts a little better. Never said they’re not close to us Albanians. I’m merely illustrating she cannot make such broad generalizations based on few samples, even when steppe admixture was already in Illyrians in similar levels to Albanians . Just look at my post above.

[Xz2k9]

Though I agree with everything else you said... she keeps referring to those samples found in Croatia as the one and only Illyrian samples because she's 100% butthurt and she makes threads how we are the ones who are butthurt and how we are like Greeks when it doesn't even apply for us.. even the Albanians that plot with Greeks aren't iike Greeks, it's just genetic similarity... She's also ignoring Illyrians inhabited Kosovo, Macedonia, Southern Serbia, Montenegro, Albania and even mainland Greece.....


Though I cannot possibly understand how Illyrians were all like mainland Greeks and any Albanian shifting North would be a Slavic admixed ..... This is what I find absolutely nonsense ....

Look at this dude, it's clustering with Bulgarians, Bronze Age found in Croatia


https://i.imgur.com/XIVdUig.jpg

Those others in Croatia were clustering quite North too but very West as you have seen but somehow you people are telling me every Albanian should cluster with a mainland Greek..... So what about Albanians that cluster South of mainland Greece ? We got Albanians clustering with Abruzo and towards Sicily.... we got Albos far South of Tuscans ..... so even Albanians clustering with mainland Greeks are magically Slav admixed and the original Illyrian Albanian was a dude and a woman clustering with Sicilians ? :lol:

[Xz2k9]

I wasn’t responding to you. Read my posts a little better. Never said they’re not close to us Albanians. I’m merely illustrating she cannot make such broad generalizations based on few samples, even when steppe admixture was already in Illyrians in similar levels to Albanians . Just look at my post above.

You're obviously agreeing with Ylla as I saw you gave her TU, not that I care about any TU but I assume you agree..... as I remember before you were claiming the same thing . But whatever .... man, I've had enough arguments with people on these forums and lots of times I even turned out to be correct ..... Seems like I am too knowledgeable wherever I go or anything I put my mind into .....


I'm outta here..... Waste of typing .....


And on Eupedia all the people there are mentally retarded ... it would be fun to rub this sample onto their face ....

[MagnusDark]

Though I agree with everything else you said... she keeps referring to those samples found in Croatia as the one and only Illyrian samples because she's 100% butthurt and she makes threads how we are the ones who are butthurt and how we are like Greeks when it doesn't even apply for us.. even the Albanians that plot with Greeks aren't iike Greeks, it's just genetic similarity... She's also ignoring Illyrians inhabited Kosovo, Macedonia, Southern Serbia, Montenegro, Albania and even mainland Greece.....


Though I cannot possibly understand how Illyrians were all like mainland Greeks and any Albanian shifting North would be a Slavic admixed ..... This is what I find absolutely nonsense ....

Look at this dude, it's clustering with Bulgarians, Bronze Age found in Croatia


https://i.imgur.com/XIVdUig.jpg

Those others in Croatia were clustering quite North too but very West as you have seen but somehow you people are telling me every Albanian should cluster with a mainland Greek..... So what about Albanians that cluster South of mainland Greece ? We got Albanians clustering with Abruzo and towards Sicily.... we got Albos far South of Tuscans ..... so even Albanians clustering with mainland Greeks are magically Slav admixed and the original Illyrian Albanian was a dude and a woman clustering with Sicilians ? :lol:

She’s said several times she sees meds as subhuman. Of course she will try to make illyrians seem Northern and unrelated. It doesn’t matter cause his Ydna is found predominantly Albanians and near non existent in Croatia. They can LARP all they want. Same as some dumb Greek tried claiming J2b-L283 was ancient Greek. Despite most of their haplotypes being shared with Albanians.

We don’t even have proper Rome samples. Most of the Romans were just romanized balkan natives and barbarian mixed Romans.

They weren’t a homogeneous people by any stretch. The America of the time. People flocked to and fro to live there.

[MagnusDark]

You're obviously agreeing with Ylla as I saw you gave her TU, not that I care about any TU but I assume you agree..... as I remember before you were claiming the same thing . But whatever .... man, I've had enough arguments with people on these forums and lots of times I even turned out to be correct ..... Seems like I am too knowledgeable wherever I go or anything I put my mind into .....


I'm outta here..... Waste of typing .....


And on Eupedia all the people there are mentally retarded ... it would be fun to rub this sample onto their face ....

Huh? No idea what you’re talking about. Slavic input is undeniable. However I have never said steppe admixture was exclusively slavic, but a combination of different sources. I said it once to that budal Fustan who tried calling me slav because of my Ydna. So since he plotted closer to Serbs I was rubbing the admixture in his face.

You’re confusing me with someone else probably. I don’t recall what I thumbed up? Maybe the post That she plots south? What does that have to do with the discussion? Me her and my father plot close together. Merely told her her high EEF is what shifted her south which clearly Thracians has more south plotting than some mainland Greeks.

So again not sure what you’re referring to exactly. Also, I’m not even sure you can see who liked what, other than posts you thumb up yourself, so stop being paranoid.

[Ylla]

G25 proves all of us have some Slavic ancestry and it's a coincidence that we carry the haplogroups and you don't, does that make sense? Albanians should look for truth even if they don't like it.
I agree though that 30% seems a bit too much, it's assuming we were like Sicilians or southern Greeks originally. I think we need more ancient samples.

Edit: also I am genuinely not trolling, I don't do that kind of stuff, this has interested me since a long time and I wanted to find out why we cluster the way we do :) :)
I have a right to question this. I'm sure if all Albanians clustered north of you we wouldn't hear the end of it either.

[Jana]

She’s said several times she sees meds as subhuman. Of course she will try to make illyrians seem Northern and unrelated. It doesn’t matter cause his Ydna is found predominantly Albanians and near non existent in Croatia. They can LARP all they want. Same as some dumb Greek tried claiming J2b-L283 was ancient Greek. Despite most of their haplotypes being shared with Albanians.

I wrote Illyrians in Albania were probably different than those in Dalmatia and I always wrote how those Croatian samples prove Albanians descend from Illyrians.
Agenda ? I always defended you from Serbs but I will not anymore.

Don't ever, and I mean ever dare to adress me again, you or any other Albanian user. All this hysteria because G25 is telling me Albanians are Slavic admixed. Which is in the end just my opinion.
You are sick people and extremely anti-Slavic.

I won't have such tolarance for you anymore as I did in the past because some idiot may get sensitive you are not so pure like you would like to be.
And I never called Meds as subhumans lmao, I am Med culturally.

Now go to LARP how your R1a arrived with Goths or Scythians.

[Jana]

G25 proves all of us have some Slavic ancestry and it's a coincidence that we carry the haplogroups and you don't, does that make sense? Albanians should look for truth even if they don't like it.
I agree though that 30% seems a bit too much, it's assuming we were like Sicilians or southern Greeks originally. I think we need more ancient samples.
Edit: also I am genuinely not trolling, I don't do that kind of stuff, this has interested me since a long time and I wanted to find out why we cluster the way we do :) :)

What we don't know is how much Roman conquest impacted Balkans genetically. In Iberia it was huge effect.
Romans were extremely southern genetically.

If it was big, that Slavic impact is most likely in those figures because it would shift those population back to where they were before Roman admixture
As far as I know your language has lot of Latin origin words.

There is Roman sample on G25, ITA-Collegno MA-o1 so you can try it out.
Croats look to have Roman admixture and that is not suprising because Illyrians in Dalmatia/Panonnia were Romanised.

[Peterski]

G25 proves all of us have some Slavic ancestry

I would wait with definite conclusions for more samples.

Look how many gaps this map of ancient Balkan DNA has:
(the map shows all good samples younger than 2000 BC)

There is one Iron Age sample from Bulgaria and that's it:
(light green dots are Bronze Age samples 2000-1000 BC)

https://i.imgur.com/GhY16r8.png

Sweeping conclusions based on a few DNA samples, chronologically far apart?

We should wait for samples dated to Classical Antiquity which represent DNA of historically known tribes and ethnic groups.

So far there is only one such sample from Bulgaria, but people argued that it did not have to be an ethnic Thracian:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?279424-Iron-Age-Balkan-DNA

[Peterski]

I claimed it could be Thracian but I'm not sure:

Sample: I5769 (grave 8)*
Epoch: Iron Age
Latitude, Longitude: 43.16, 25.88
Sex: Female
Site: Dzhulyunitsa - near https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyaskovets
Date: 500-400 BCE

Not much context available:

"I5769 / No 8 (Iron Age, grave 9)*. Sub-adult female. This Iron Age burial was found in an oval pit in sq. 3611. The skeleton in flexed position and is turned to the east. Orientation of the body is SE-NW, with the head to SE. The grave inventory consists of ornamental beads and 21 metal (probably copper) ornaments smaller than 5 mm."

*One source says grave 8, one says grave 9 - must be a mistake.

=====

Some users claimed she could be Greek.

[vbnetkhio]

I would wait with definite conclusions for more samples.

Look how many gaps this map of ancient Balkan DNA has:
(the map shows all good samples younger than 2000 BC)

There is one Iron Age sample from Bulgaria and that's it:
(light green dots are Bronze Age samples 2000-1000 BC)

https://i.imgur.com/GhY16r8.png

they all plot together nicely though :)

those Croatian and Moldovan samples are similar to northwest Italians. the Bulgarian to central Italians and Mycenaeans to Sicilians.
and there's a Thraco-Cimmerian from Moldova which plots like north Greeks/Albanians and Daco-Scythian from Moldova which plots like Croats, for an obvious reason.

i'll be surprised if something out of this line is discovered

[WeirdLookingFellow]

G25 is a very competent tool, that despite its limitation due to few samples, can actually point as to where the particular admixes come from. I have meddled with it quite a bit tho I am absolutely not Davidski and have attempted to isolate specific admixes in myself and other people, also averages. Albanians have rather clear Slavic admix and the "it comes from Steppe people that came here earlier than that" does not fit reality, at least not entirely. Yamnaya_RUS_Samara is also used by Davidski when he sends you the results. I actually wondered why since based on some studies I've read the Yamnaya were not really pure Steppe. It seems, actually, that this sample is. I am not contesting that the possibility of an earlier Steppe admix is impossible, since Romanians clearly have it from their vicinity with Scythians. Also it is known that some Scythian samples that we have were probably actually Dacian+Celtic or just Dacian/Thracian, therefore mixing clearly exists (not to mention that historical records do state that the two peoples mixed).


https://puu.sh/EuIt6/577b372b7e.png

https://puu.sh/EuIvA/8da019f141.png

0 pen
https://puu.sh/EuIwG/5fbcbe846f.png

[Peterski]

i'll be surprised if something out of this line is discovered

It already was. This guy from Bulgaria was out of this line:
(and it is one of very few samples younger than 2000 BC)

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?280459-Bronze-Age-Bulgarian-R1a-Z93

https://i.imgur.com/6HCLVgb.png

^^^
Eurogenes K15 PCA:

Abscisse (x-axis): 534 pixel, Ordonnée (y-axis): 144 pixel

https://i.imgur.com/FvAghvC.png

[vbnetkhio]

It already was. This guy from Bulgaria was out of this line:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?280459-Bronze-Age-Bulgarian-R1a-Z93

https://i.imgur.com/6HCLVgb.png

^^^
Eurogenes K15 PCA:

Abscisse (x-axis): 534 pixel, Ordonnée (y-axis): 144 pixel

https://i.imgur.com/FvAghvC.png

it's a bit older than those samples i mentioned. this could be an early indo european immigrant, not yet fully mixed with the locals?

[Peterski]

^^^
Some of Mycenaean samples are just as old (up to 1700 BC).

[Jana]

That sample is not very relevant for genetic make-up of modern Balkanites. Bulgarians can't be modeled using that and Slavic samples, they can be only modeled using Iron Age Thracians.
His haplogroup shows how much he contributed to Bulgarians, basically zero as it is extremely uncommon today.

My verdict= Bulgaria BA was proto-Thracian, Bulgaria IA = classic Thracian

[Jana]

So far there is only one such sample from Bulgaria, but people argued that it did not have to be an ethnic Thracian:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?279424-Iron-Age-Balkan-DNA

Some users claimed she could be Greek.


Unlikely. People can and always will claim whatever they want.


In 400-500 B.C., the main inhabitants of Bulgaria were definitely Thracians. Greeks only lived on settlements along the Black Sea coast rather than interior Thrace. The chances of it being a non-Thracian are very low.

[Jana]

Oh yea, more weirdness from some Albos :p

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?302976-Main-types-and-place-Croats-from-Dinaric-Alps/page3

Some Albanian users claim these Croats easily pass as Kosova Albanians, even in groups. And they are genetically mostly Slavic with large Balkan admixture.
Interesting how Croats fit in Kosovo so well but they are by blood mostly Slavs :D No Slav blood in Albanians, we are 100% pure illyrians!!!

While it is clear these Croats don't look Belarusian or Ukrainian, they don't look ''Illyrian'' either as it would be impossible considering their genetic make-up. They look mixed Slavo-Vlachs.
What people can ''Balkan look'' is just a mixed look of various traits including native, Slavic, etc.

It's like some ''pure'' Amerindian claims mestizos look just like his people, but at same time screams how he has no Iberian blood.

[MagnusDark]

What we don't know is how much Roman conquest impacted Balkans genetically. In Iberia it was huge effect.
Romans were extremely southern genetically.

If it was big, that Slavic impact is most likely in those figures because it would shift those population back to where they were before Roman admixture
As far as I know your language has lot of Latin origin words.

There is Roman sample on G25, ITA-Collegno MA-o1 so you can try it out.
Croats look to have Roman admixture and that is not suprising because Illyrians in Dalmatia/Panonnia were Romanised.

Whose LARPing other than most of your ilk? For the most part I know you’re even keel. Yet, I have seen you say several times Medish phenotypes and cromagnid types are subhuman compared to North Pontid/Pontid types.

You have said some pretty irrational things bordering racism about people that don’t fit your racial preferences.

My haplotype isn’t found in slavs. Whilst it most likely arrived with proto slavs on earliest contact we still know nothing. Where’s the ancientDNA?

You speak definitively when we don’t even have proto slavic samples(so much so people can’t agree on what samples to use as a proxy). Also we barely have illyrian or thracian samples. As I already mentioned. No Ancient Macedonian, no ancient Epirote or ancient south Illyrian dna to make any conclusive statements.

You said we are all roman admixed. Hey you’re ignoring most of those roman samples were likely romanized balkan people. Already said we still don’t have Rome proper samples. Only balkan Romans and barbarian admixed Romans.

Mytrueancestry says Spaniard and north Italians are illyrian like. If you take such a silly thing seriously rather than seeing it’s probably just similar admixture/drift, then you can misconstrue the truth.

You took a fun calculator from Dorkymon that only uses a short limited population algorithm as gospel truth. You also ignored all the other calculator results I posted but fine you do you. Everyone apparently acts like they have their PHD in genetics.

[MagnusDark]

.....

No one denies Slavic admixture in Albanians. None of that was even said in any of my posts. I clearly stated they had an undeniable impact. However, the idea ALL steppe related admixture in Albanians is FROM Slavs is highly false. Albanians like Greeks and everyone else received various waves of steppe migrations that increases the admixture level over time. The problem here is Feichy seems to assume ALL of that steppe admixture is strictly from the Slavs. Many ancients came out Baltic or slavic “like”. Illyrians and Thracians already had some Rus_Samara. See below several G25 runs using my coordinated. I guess I can LARP now because apparently I’m a bit of everything. Some ancients for comparison to.

Also, I think Pererski mentioned(correct me if I’m wrong dude) that not all EEF in Slavs May be from the migration. They could have likely already had some EEF to begin with and probably weren’t fully steppe either.


I wouldn’t take calculators all too literally. They can say a lot as you can see here. My father and I drift closer than the average albanian to UKR_CimmerianMJ12. I doubt it’s because I have any actual Dacian or thracian ancestry and is like just similar admixture levels causing drift.

All steppe admixture can’t be just from the Slavs in Albanians. Such a claim required Post migration scenarios. It’s undeniable Albanians are mostly Paleo-Balkan, so their steppe admixture has various sources including slavic.
pen=0

"distance%=3.035"

MagnusDark_scaled

Balkans_IA,79.6
Baltic_IA,9.6
England_IA,8.8
Pakistan_Butkara_IA,1.4
Turkmenistan_IA,0.6

"distance%=3.4328"


MagnusDark_scaled


ILLYRII,48.8
GRAECI,26.2
ITALI,25

Fit - 3.387
Greek-Albanian - 98.33
Iberian - 0.83
Sicilian-Maltese - 0.83

"distance%=1.8822"

MagnusDark(as you can see, adding other steppe admixed population, the algorithm selects the closest match)

GRECO-ROMAN,45
ILLYRIAN-THRACIAN,40
IBERIAN,8.8
SLAVIC,4
BALTIC,1.6
VIKING-EAST,0.6

MagnusDark_”fit": 3.2012,
"MACEDONIAN-THRACIAN": 45,
"ILLYRIAN": 29.17,
"GREEK": 13.33,
"PANNONIAN": 6.67,
"PONTIC-BALTIC": 3.33,
"NORTHWESTERN-IRANIAN": 1.67,
"BALTIC": 0.83

"closestDistances": [
"MACEDONIAN-THRACIAN:undefined: 3.780329",
"ILLYRIAN:undefined: 4.102382",
"GREEK:undefined: 6.569086",
"PANNONIAN:undefined: 7.513800",
"CELTIC-SOUTHEAST:undefined: 9.883884",
"IBERIAN:undefined: 10.058478",
"PONTIC-CAUCASIAN:undefined: 10.678822",

Target: MagnusDark_scaled
Distance: 1.8227% / 0.01822686
Aggregated
44.8 Hellenes
18.4 Getae
17.0 Baltics
16.2 Goths
2.0 Thracians
1.6 Slavs

Target: MagnusDark_scaled
Distance: 2.2811% / 0.02281091
Aggregated
44.4 Pre-Slavic_Greek_World
31.8 SlavicMigration
23.8 Pre-Slavic_Thracian_World

Some ancient g25 runs Plus mine:


Minoan (Lassithi)
Distance: 2.1814%
86.6 - Anatolian_Barcin_N
13.0 - CHG
0.4 - Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Thracian
Distance: 2.5591%
72.4 - Anatolian_Barcin_N
24.2 - Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
3.4 - CHG

Mycenaean
Distance: 2.2264%
75.6 - Anatolian_Barcin_N
13.0 - CHG
11.4 - Yamnaya_RUS Samara

Early Bronze Age Croatian
Distance: 2.9443%
59.0 - Anatolian_Barcin_N
31.2 - Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
5.2 - CHG
4.6 - WHG

MagnusDark_Distance: 3.0487%
63.6 - Anatolian_Barcin_N
32.8 - Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.8 - CHG
1.8 - WHG


Average Albanian
Distance: 2.6002%
59.8 - Anatolian_Barcin_N
35.6 - Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.6 - CHG
2.0 WHG

[vbnetkhio]

Mytrueancestry says Spaniard and north Italians are illyrian like. If you take such a silly thing seriously rather than seeing it’s probably just similar admixture/drift, then you can misconstrue the truth.


they just had a similar whg/neolithic farmer/indoeuropean ratio as Iberians and Northwest Italians. and those samples are some proto-Delmatians, not Illyrians. Illyrians was originally used for tribes living more south, they might have been autosomally differrent.

maybe there was some actual Iberian genetics spreading into Central Europe and Balkans with the Bell beaker or Celtic migrations? if any of those groups even originated in Iberia. but that's not how to interpret mytrueancestry results. they just use the simple eurogenes k15 calculator.

[MagnusDark]

they just had a similar whg/neolithic farmer/indoeuropean ratio as Iberians and Northwest Italians. and those samples are some proto-Delmatians, not Illyrians. Illyrians was originally used for tribes living more south, they might have been autosomally differrent.

maybe there was some actual Iberian genetics spreading into Central Europe and Balkans with the Bell beaker or Celtic migrations? if any of those groups even originated in Iberia. but that's not how to interpret mytrueancestry results. they just use the simple eurogenes k15 calculator.

Of course. Yet, people are taking things as gospel truth without any due diligence. As for the Proto Dalmatia, I understand he was officially classified as Proto Illyrian. His YDNA for instance was J2b-L283 which is most prevelant in Albanians/West Balkans.

[MagnusDark]

G25 proves all of us have some Slavic ancestry and it's a coincidence that we carry the haplogroups and you don't, does that make sense? Albanians should look for truth even if they don't like it.
I agree though that 30% seems a bit too much, it's assuming we were like Sicilians or southern Greeks originally. I think we need more ancient samples.

Edit: also I am genuinely not trolling, I don't do that kind of stuff, this has interested me since a long time and I wanted to find out why we cluster the way we do :) :)
I have a right to question this. I'm sure if all Albanians clustered north of you we wouldn't hear the end of it either.

When have I said anything about how you or other Albanians cluster?

I can tell you have a genuine interest. Great. Just don’t be so gullible. No Albanian denies slavic admixture save a few. That would make zero sense given the historical dynamics at play for near 2 millennia.

The problem here is making broad generalizations such as all steppe admixture in Albanians are from Slavs. In order for something so nonsensical to be true, Albanians would have to have migrated in the early Middle Ages as well. That’s simply not the case.

Albanians are proven paleo Balkan mostly by Ydna by this point. They likely received waves of steppe admixture, concluding with the Slavic migrations that added additional admixture shifting us north and east. If you look at the G25 runs I provided one page 19 you will see the average illyrian and thracian is not far off from from the Albanian average where steppe admixture is concerned. With the Albanian average having a little bit more.

There were a number of tribes carrying steppe like admixture at various intervals not just Slavs. Have you taken a full Mtdna test to even know how far back you match with slavs in your line? It was found in a lot of ancient samples and not specific to slavs. Best to do a full sequence test to see the distances between you and slavic people in your branch.

Which brings me to the discussion of Y-DNA. We only have a little over 800 samples in our project. Of those, R1a/I2a ‘makes up between 15-30 percent in Albania proper and less than 10 percent in Kosova. Most of the R1a/I2a in our project is low resolution. Some are just classified as M417 due to low reads, no calls and potentially because they form new haplotypes that only deep testing reveals.

For fudge sake my Ydna clade was falsely predicted in basic STR level that only a deep bigY test was able to remedy.

You can’t make conclusive statements with low resolution testing. It’s not evidence. It’s guess work.

Also, some I1 which is typically classified as “Germanic” is clustering distantly with Slavs(for those who have done BigY). So, likely I1 and other minimal lineages were also part of the Slavic migrations into the balkans. Of the high resolution tests for R1a so far are my haplotype which is strictly found in Albanians with our ancestor living 1200ybp. It even have sub clusters forming in Tosks. There’s a 800-900 years gap with slavs in this haplo going back with Slavic, German, Scandinavian, Kavkazians, Finnish matches between 2000-2300ybp. We can guess certain scenarios. But until the lineage is more fleshed out in this gap of time, nothing can be said with certainty, other than the lineage expanded from Central & Central East Europe sometime in the late Iron Age and early Middle Ages. Just 7!years ago people were ignorantly calling I2a1b-Din Illyrian and E-V13 North African. Data is constantly growing and puzzle pieces coming together.

Another Albanian cluster also in L1029 coming from 2 bigY Tosks in areas even raided by Goths. We also have some Z280 clusters with potential albanian haplotypes. For instance one Albanian belongs to a basal clade with no slavic matches closer than 2400ybp(400BC).

I2a remains without deep tests in Albanians yet most are suspected to be shared with Bulgarians and Romanians. For all we know an Albanian May also pop up in the rare Greek cluster of I2-Y3120 or even forming a Albanian haplotype.

The Middle Ages were highly chaotic. Cross assimilation to and fro. Slavs weren’t the only barbarians spilling out from the Danube into all directions of the balkans. Modern human social constructs are only 300 years old and didn’t even exist back then. Some Slavs even welcomed assimilation and helped supply byzantines against their other warlike kin.

It’s important to examine things on a case by case basis. Broad generalizations are only for laymen or people who know better and have an agenda.

They can tell what lineages expanded with whom from deep testing. Regardless if it Came originally with a German, Slav, Turkic or whatever. This is why deep Y testing is so important. There’s even Slavic clusters of E-V13.

We have no ancient slavic dna pre-migration or even migration slavs from the Balkans. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada. So much so there’s not an agreement on what samples we do have are best Proxy for slavs. Some samples work for one groups of slavs over another. They are not homogeneous by any stretch.

I already made one example. My cousin married a Finnish woman. Kids half Finnish and half Albanian. They come out as Montenegrin in calculators. Shall we assume this is a Slavic admixed albanian whose actually Montenegrin? No.

You have to understand calculators are one of many tools in understanding moving ancestries. The most advantageous which sadly has only been for studies and not much commercial use is IBD sharing.

So while X29X or whatever was being haughty in his approach, he is correct that IBD is far more reliable in determining related ancestry within recent historical time frames.

Keep a skeptical and fresh mind. Be careful. Half these people have not even an amateur understanding of genetics and are LARPing like they have PHDs in this stuff.

[Jana]

The problem here is making broad generalizations such as all steppe admixture in Albanians are from Slavs.

Nobody ever mentioned something as idiotic as that, you just made it up.

[Jana]

Whose LARPing other than most of your ilk? For the most part I know you’re even keel. Yet, I have seen you say several times Medish phenotypes and cromagnid types are subhuman compared to North Pontid/Pontid types.

Nope, I have never said that. You are again lying. Or you can post quotes where I said that.


You said we are all roman admixed. Hey you’re ignoring most of those roman samples were likely romanized balkan people. Already said we still don’t have Rome proper samples. Only balkan Romans and barbarian admixed Romans.

No, I never said that. It is my guess based on Roman genetic admixture in Iberians which was recently discovered to be far greater than believed.
And yes we have Roman samples, I posted it's name. It is the best thing available until now and new ones from upcoming Roman paper which is to be released will be South Italian and Greek Islander like, based on descriptions from the leaked texts.

[Jana]

Mytrueancestry says Spaniard and north Italians are illyrian like. If you take such a silly thing seriously rather than seeing it’s probably just similar admixture/drift, then you can misconstrue the truth.
Are you serious ? I don't care for that trashy website and I wrote North Italians have absolutely nothing to do with Illyrians except artificial genetic similarity.


You took a fun calculator from Dorkymon that only uses a short limited population algorithm as gospel truth. You also ignored all the other calculator results I posted but fine you do you. Everyone apparently acts like they have their PHD in genetics.

No, I did not. Again don't put the words in my mouth that I never said. I said such calculator is not the best and shouldn't be taken literally. It is especially bad for western Balkans.
What I said is that it's good enough to give a rough idea about percentage of Slavic input into various Balkan people.

[MagnusDark]

Nobody ever mentioned something as idiotic as that, you just made it up.

That’s why you posted dorkymon K4 to illustrate your point of how “Slavic” we are and thumbed down my post with all the G25 runs showing steppe levels haven’t changed much in Albanians from the ancients? Don’t like when the evidence doesn’t support your guesswork?

Everyone acts like a genetic scientist. I’m not saying the other Albanian approached the discussion without frustration and I’m not responsible for his comments to you. but I can completely understand his frustration. . He’s not wrong about IBD sharing being more accurate.

Also my statements of LARPing was general. For the most part I know you don’t deny albanians descend from Illyrians.

However with regards to racist comments in the past. You were arguing with other Balkan folk. Maybe it was mentioned in defense of Stears. Understandable then.

Regardless you did call Cromagnid types subhuman. I don’t have time to go through all your posts and find it. Other users can chime in there.

I never disrespected you. I disagreed with you. Difference. But I won’t accept lies against my own people’s either.

Slavic admixture is only one part of steppe input into Albanians. Undeniable. Never said otherwise.

Your jest at me regarding my Ydna is also in ignorance. The average user in these forums are not exactly well equipped with knowledge in haplogroups or deep testing for that matter. You called Dick for instance a German and said his haplogroup is not Slavic. That illustrates you don’t know much as his specific haplotype undeniably arrived with Slavs and even appears in some Albanians.

No one has ancient Proto Slavic dna to know what lineages were more common. There’s slavic clades in many minimal haplogroups for all we know we’re at one time more prevalent.

You and Ylla claimed I2/R1a in Albanians is all from Slavs. Whilst most surely will be, there is absolutely no way to know without deep resolution testing which is already turning up surprises. A few Albanian haplotypes sharing connection to slavs no later 1200-2100 years are already popping up.

Just like the unique Greek branch of I2a1b that is devoid of most slavs, we are discovering similar among other groups Albanians included. Scandinavian Z284 is also found in a couple Albanians in Montenegro.

Ethnic affiliation and nationalism are more modern social constructs that did not exist in the early Middle Ages and earlier.

This upcoming study will shed a lot of light on the situation of these lineages. A monumental study the first of its kind. People won’t be able to create wild baseless theories anymore as this will be a monumental undertaking spanning 400-900CE.


https://www.shh.mpg.de/1514048/histo-genes-erc-synergy-grant

Also yet to test Tolense finds of 2000 warriors which will tells us much more in the Bronze Age.

90% of the arguments thrown around here are completely baseless.

[Jana]

That’s why you posted dorkymon K4 to illustrate your point of how “Slavic” we are and thumbed down my post with all the G25 runs showing steppe levels haven’t changed much in Albanians from the ancients? Don’t like when the evidence doesn’t support your guesswork?

I thumbed you down because of this (innacurate):


The problem here is Feichy seems to assume ALL of that steppe admixture is strictly from the Slavs.

My parents are mostly CM both. I think they are subhuman ? :bored:
I just said Borreby is generally ugly phenotype for me. That not racist. It's just opinion every person has differently.

And CM phenotypes peak in Northern Europe not Balkans/South. Borreby peaks in Denmark.

[Ylla]

What we don't know is how much Roman conquest impacted Balkans genetically. In Iberia it was huge effect.
Romans were extremely southern genetically.

If it was big, that Slavic impact is most likely in those figures because it would shift those population back to where they were before Roman admixture
As far as I know your language has lot of Latin origin words.

There is Roman sample on G25, ITA-Collegno MA-o1 so you can try it out.
Croats look to have Roman admixture and that is not suprising because Illyrians in Dalmatia/Panonnia were Romanised.

If Romans were really southern genetically than that means more southern * doesn't * always equal more native Balkan. But rather more Roman and Latin input?
Maybe those kosovars have less of this and more native thraco Illyrian Balkan. I can see now how the algorithm works
Btw I don't think albanians have anything against Slavic ancestry, nobody here does, I've seen similar denial of germanic admixtures actually
I don't care much about pure Albanian or whatever it just makes me question my mother's ancestry especially because I'm not sure of where her family came from originally.

[Jana]

If Romans were really southern genetically than that means more southern * doesn't * always equal more native Balkan. But rather more Roman and Latin input?
Maybe those kosovars have less of this and more native thraco Illyrian Balkan. I can see now how the algorithm works
Btw I don't think albanians have anything against Slavic ancestry, nobody here does, I've seen similar denial of germanic admixtures actually
I don't care much about pure Albanian or whatever it just makes me question my mother's ancestry especially because I'm not sure of where her family came from originally.

Yes, more southern does not equal more native neither more northern does equal more slavic. It depends how well you match particular samples (and G25 is great in that because fit automatically lowers when you select samples closer to your DNA).

[Ylla]

I don't even know why I'm typing all this crap as I could just show you the PCA MAP but now I see it was removed from the Albanian forum but I found the paper of that sample and could possibly try and add it onto gedmatch or get someone to do it.

Sorry I was wrong.

[Ylla]

There’s still quite a bit we do not know about the Middle Ages and earlier. Some proto thracian came out Swedish like mixed with caucasus like. Other ancient Scythians and Sarmatian samples were polish or Baltic like. This is why I wouldn’t take autosomal admixture too seriously. Whilst slavs definitely introduced more Eastern Euro/Baltic like admixture, the idea all Eastern admixture in Albanians is exclusively introduced by slavs is their wet dream the same way as a Greek users try and claim EEF admixture in Albanians is from Greeks. They’re just LARPing.

So many R1a/I2a Albanians are also yet to do bigY, so nothing is definitive from a YDNA side of things either. Among mine there is also another Albanian haplotype discovered in the South in L1029, and potentially Z280 as well.

There was also Z284 in a couple of Albanians from Montenegro. I2a1a in Diber Madhe(celtic branch of I2a1.
Diber is very unique in haplotypes. So far every J2b-L283 line there is different, including barbarian lineages like R1a(my case). Eventually I plan to help contribute to other areas but I we are already fleshing out this haplotype. BigY testing is the way to go. Autosomal is still in its infancy but we will understand it eventually.

We still don’t have a definitive proto slavic sample to know what they actually looked like admixture wise. Whilst still slavic admixed, Bulgarians and Macedonians are the least slavic if southern Slavs and cluster closer to Greeks and in some cases Albanian. Some say this is due to slavic admixture in Greeks. Maybe so. However, the average bulgarian or macedonian has between 40-50 EEF ancestry whereas average Albanian 60-75 give or take region to region.

Autosomal methods are a growing science. There is a Central European study coming in a few years that will span the early Middle Ages from 400-900CE. 6000 graves. It will tell us a lot given it will unite all scientific disciplines for this mammoth study. May shed light on barbarian migration in the early Middle Ages. And into the balkans.

Ok but why you guys writing so much I simply wanted to know why some shift towards south Slavic populations which is obvious to the human eyes. The obvious reason feiichy and I suggested was slavic ancestry and you guys talk about something farfetched. But I saw how the algorithms work anyway and it's much much more complex you * can * be more southern and have more slavic ancestry it depends which populations you match

[MagnusDark]

Ok but why you guys writing so much I simply wanted to know why some shift towards south Slavic populations which is obvious to the human eyes. The obvious reason feiichy and I suggested was slavic ancestry and you guys talk about something farfetched. But I saw how the algorithms work anyway and it's much much more complex you * can * be more southern and have more slavic ancestry it depends which populations you match



Far-fetched? Yes, I forgot you and Feichhy are certified PHD's in population genetics(sarcasm).

I already explained/replied to you on page 20 extensively, and showed data of G25 ancients on page 19 in response to Feicchy. If neither of you can do some proper reading and prove anything other than just speaking for the sake of speaking, I won't bother to act like a broken record any further.

Keep believing your mother-line is a Slav because you're being brainwashed by self-proclaimed geneticists(even though you probably haven't done a full sequence maternal test). Even then, there is no guarantee unless you have matches in recent history.

Writing so much? Not my fault you can't apply yourself. Keep being gullible then why don't you.

[Jana]

Neither of you know what you are talking about. She just said Northern admixture is all from Slavs.

NO, I DID NOT and you should stop to making things up otherwise I will be forced to report you.

[MagnusDark]

NO, I DID NOT and you should stop to making things up otherwise I will be forced to report you.

Already re-read it and edited my post. Not my fault you can't construct proper sentences with comma's and breaks.

I also was not speaking to you. I was speaking to a fellow Albanian being brainwashed to think all steppe admixture in Albanians is Slavic, and that her mother is a Slav. She probably hasn't even done a full MtDNA sequence. Even then, without recent historical matches, no definitive statements can be made.

Population genetics is still in its infancy. My ethnicity is practically changing every calculator. You with agendas just like to deal in absolutes.

[Jana]

Already re-read it and edited my post. Not my fault you can't construct proper sentences with comma's and breaks.

I also was not speaking to you. I was speaking to a fellow Albanian being brainwashed to think all steppe admixture in Albanians is Slavic, and that her mother is a Slav. She probably hasn't even done a full MtDNA sequence. Even then, without recent historical matches, no definitive statements can be made.

Population genetics is still in its infancy. My ethnicity is practically changing every calculator. You with agendas just like to deal in absolutes.

Stupid and rude fool, I never told her her mother is Slavic neither that all steppe admixture in Albanians is Slavic. You are an absolute idiot.
Her mtDNA is just NE European and not Slavic, and it seems most common in Hungarian conqueror elite not in Slavs.

I have absolutely no idea how it got to Albanians and it is none of my business. Could be from Slavs and could be not. Nobody gives a damn. It is up to Ylla to find out.
What is clear is that you and that other guy are pretty sick minded when going to attack me who has always been friendly and curious towards Albanians because I said Albanians have some Slavic admixture, which is again just my personal opinion which could be wrong and which none of you should give a fuck about.

[MagnusDark]

Stupid and rude fool, I never told her her mother is Slavic neither that all steppe admixture in Albanians is Slavic. You are an absolute idiot.
Her mtDNA is just NE European and not Slavic, and it seems most common in Hungarian conqueror elite not in Slavs.

I have absolutely no idea how it got to Albanians and it is none of my business. Could be from Slavs and could be not. Nobody gives a damn. It is up to Ylla to find out.
What is clear is that you and that other guy are pretty sick minded when going to attack me who has always been friendly and curious towards Albanians because I said Albanians have some Slavic admixture, which is again just my personal opinion which could be wrong and which none of you should give a fuck about.

Reported for your foul speech. I never cursed you outright. Disagreed, misunderstood sure. Never cursed.

I provided evidence you just thumb down. I am not interested in any discussion with you.

[Jana]

Reported for your foul speech. I never cursed you outright. Disagreed, misunderstood sure. Never cursed.

I provided evidence you just thumb down. I am not interested in any discussion with you.

No, you didn't provide any evidence. You LIED. I won't allow you to lie about me.
You are on ignore list from now on, and go elsewhere to deal with trauma of being paternally Slavic descendant in pureblood obsessed community.

[Ylla]

Far-fetched? Yes, I forgot you and Feichhy are certified PHD's in population genetics(sarcasm).

I already explained/replied to you on page 20 extensively, and showed data of G25 ancients on page 19 in response to Feicchy. If neither of you can do some proper reading and prove anything other than just speaking for the sake of speaking, I won't bother to act like a broken record any further.

Keep believing your mother-line is a Slav because you're being brainwashed by self-proclaimed geneticists(even though you probably haven't done a full sequence maternal test). Even then, there is no guarantee unless you have matches in recent history.

Writing so much? Not my fault you can't apply yourself. Keep being gullible then why don't you.

She didn't even say any of that :picard1: she was helping me figure something out: why people from the same country are so different on the plot.

I, *myself* concluded that my mtdna is Slavic based on a peer reviewed paper not anyone else. I don't care to ask people here about my haplogroup.

[Mingle]

Far-fetched? Yes, I forgot you and Feichhy are certified PHD's in population genetics(sarcasm).

I already explained/replied to you on page 20 extensively, and showed data of G25 ancients on page 19 in response to Feicchy. If neither of you can do some proper reading and prove anything other than just speaking for the sake of speaking, I won't bother to act like a broken record any further.

Keep believing your mother-line is a Slav because you're being brainwashed by self-proclaimed geneticists(even though you probably haven't done a full sequence maternal test). Even then, there is no guarantee unless you have matches in recent history.

Writing so much? Not my fault you can't apply yourself. Keep being gullible then why don't you.

If its not from Slavs, which other group is it more likely to be from?

Her mtDNA peaks in NE Europe and in Serbia in the Balkans:

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-U4-map.png

Phylogenetic tree of U4d2:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Beatrice_Simona_Kelemen/publication/330732540/figure/fig2/AS:720844955344896@1548874238206/Median-joining-network-for-haplogroup-U4d2-obtained-from-complete-mtDNA-genomes.ppm

[MagnusDark]

If its not from Slavs, which other group is it more likely to be from?

Her mtDNA peaks in NE Europe and in Serbia in the Balkans:

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/mtDNA-U4-map.png

Phylogenetic tree of U4d2:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Beatrice_Simona_Kelemen/publication/330732540/figure/fig2/AS:720844955344896@1548874238206/Median-joining-network-for-haplogroup-U4d2-obtained-from-complete-mtDNA-genomes.ppm

Has she done MtDNA full sequence? Has she uploaded to Yfull for further matches? Who are her recent historical matches? How far back in history do they trace? Recent? Ancient? btw the post you made is not showing(the tree)

These are all important questions before determining someones maternal or even paternal ancestry. Most people on this forum have Agendas. All that can be said (unless she provides actual info for her matches) is that her line came some where from Eastern Europe. When or how remains to be seen. Whats her deep clade? If she hasn't tested further, all else is guesswork.


Mesolithic Swedish hunter gatherers

Ajv53(Female), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4d

Ajv58(Male), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4d

Ajv70(Male), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4d

Ire8(Male), 5,100-4,150 cal. B.P, Ire, Hangvar, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4d

[MagnusDark]

She didn't even say any of that :picard1: she was helping me figure something out: why people from the same country are so different on the plot.

I, *myself* concluded that my mtdna is Slavic based on a peer reviewed paper not anyone else. I don't care to ask people here about my haplogroup.

Until you do a Full sequen MtDNA test, until you review your most recent matches, you're only guessing. Most peer reviewed don't deep test clades. Where it is most common today does not mean you are from there. We have Albanians with middle eastern haplogroups(J1/J-m205) that only share most recent ancestors there over 5-8 thousand years ago.

Do you understand what that means? It means their ancestor likely had no recent ancestor for more than 5000 years from there. Context is everything. Try speaking to the admins in our project. Regardless if they only deal with Y-DNA, they can educate you way more than I or these people.

If you have done full sequence and have recent mtdna matches that are all Slavic, then you can go off of something concrete in that instance. Do you know how many thousands of years these lineages move around? ESPECIALLY MtDNA.

[vbnetkhio]

here are some northern pulled Albanians.


ALBANIAN MONTENEGRO KITS :

A681980

A830498

M258605

M192767

M946469

M620838

M404397

M647566

M441196

M940206


here's how they plot
https://i.imgur.com/RDSKw2r.png

[Ylla]

Until you do a Full sequen MtDNA test, until you review your most recent matches, you're only guessing. Most peer reviewed don't deep test clades. Where it is most common today does not mean you are from there. We have Albanians with middle eastern haplogroups(J1/J-m205) that only share most recent ancestors there over 5-8 thousand years ago.

Do you understand what that means? It means their ancestor likely had no recent ancestor for more than 5000 years from there. Context is everything. Try speaking to the admins in our project. Regardless if they only deal with Y-DNA, they can educate you way more than I or these people.

If you have done full sequence and have recent mtdna matches that are all Slavic, then you can go off of something concrete in that instance. Do you know how many thousands of years these lineages move around? ESPECIALLY MtDNA.

Yeah I understand but I genuinely think I do have it due to some family names. I obviously know my mother isn't Slavic lol but I mean far back. :)

@feiichy i don't know why we are called sick as a people just because you have a disagreement with a few Albanians here on a sensitive topic. I see serbs denying Albanian autosomal and haplogroups all the time. And no one needs to defend us from anyone we don't ask others to defend on our behalf, thank you but you do it because you want to.

[Jana]

Yeah I understand but I genuinely think I do have it due to some family names. I obviously know my mother isn't Slavic lol but I mean far back. :)

@feiichy i don't know why we are called sick as a people just because you have a disagreement with a few Albanians here on a sensitive topic. I see serbs denying Albanian autosomal and haplogroups all the time. And no one needs to defend us from anyone we don't ask others to defend on our behalf, thank you but you do it because you want to.

I'll just stay away. Albanian genetics isn't my main interest, it's an interest out of curiosity just like for any ethnic group and because I feel by understanding non Slavic Balkan genetics will help us understand South Slavic genetics as well. But as I said, I def. don't have enough of an interest to continue arguing so I will just pass from now on.

[Ylla]

I'll just stay away. Albanian genetics isn't my main interest, it's an interest out of curiosity just like for any ethnic group and because I feel by understanding non Slavic Balkan genetics will help us understand South Slavic genetics as well. But as I said, I def. don't have enough of an interest to continue arguing so I will just pass from now on.

You are really knowledgeable and didn't do anything wrong. They are against Slavic ancestry because they assume it's from Serbs considering our history but it's much more complex than that.
Many members said I must have Slavic ancestry because I "look" Slavic and they just "know" :picard1: (especially ex member dralos) but some plot with Slavic speaking populations and consider themselves pure, that was bothering me...the anti Slavic sentiment and how ironic.
I really value knowledge and truth.
It doesn't change their ethnicity whatsoever, nobody is more Albanian for being more "native". It's childish thinking and doesn't matter in the real world.

I'm surprised I only got 10% expected more but whatever :cool:

[MagnusDark]

You are really knowledgeable and didn't do anything wrong. They are against Slavic ancestry because they assume it's from Serbs considering our history but it's much more complex than that.
Many members said I must have Slavic ancestry because I "look" Slavic and they just "know" :picard1: (especially ex member dralos) but some plot with Slavic speaking populations and consider themselves pure, that was bothering me...the anti Slavic sentiment and how ironic.
I really value knowledge and truth.
It doesn't change their ethnicity whatsoever, nobody is more Albanian for being more "native". It's childish thinking and doesn't matter in the real world.

I'm surprised I only got 10% expected more but whatever :cool:

You’re wrong. Don’t make assumptions of Albanians and don’t presume to know everyone’s opinions/thoughts on something. She is a laymen as are you. Neither of you really understand how algorithms work. You want to be deluded go ahead. Don’t make lying assumptions about me or others Albanians and what “we think”. You’re on a racist ethnocentric european forum where 99 percent of the threads are race wars. Don’t expect to find much “truth” here.

[Ylla]

You’re wrong. Don’t make assumptions of Albanians and don’t presume to know everyone’s opinions/thoughts on something. She is a laymen as are you. Neither of you really understand how algorithms work. You want to be deluded go ahead. Don’t make lying assumptions about me or others Albanians and what “we think”. You’re on a racist ethnocentric european forum where 99 percent of the threads are race wars. Don’t expect to find much “truth” here.

you don't have more knowledge than us sorry

[Ylla]

I researched and studied the g25 algorithms and I probably have more knowledge than you despite this is your interest not mine. You have an arrogant attitude and like to argue for nothing ofc Slavic ancestry will be associated with Serb that's common sense but you guys don't like common sense.

[MagnusDark]

you don't have more knowledge than us sorry


I researched and studied the g25 algorithms and I probably have more knowledge than you despite this is your interest not mine. You have an arrogant attitude and like to argue for nothing ofc Slavic ancestry will be associated with Serb that's common sense but you guys don't like common sense.

I do though. No offense, and yet I’m still amateur enthusiast. I have spoken to people far more knowledgeable than you or me and they all say not to take algorithms seriously and that there’s still not much we know with certainty. Not enough ancient remains to draw conclusions. Autosomal goes through random combination events and is constantly changing that it’s hard to know what Came first from who and where. We are on our way to getting there yet still are just scratching the surface.

No. That’s where you seem to lack common sense. Most Slavic ancestry in Albania proper is due to the Slavic tribes that share the South East Balkan dialect of Slavic. Presumably what developed into North Macedonian and Bulgarian, whilst their Proto Slavic kin in Albania were likely absorbed. Archaeological remnants of Proto Slavic materials were shared with the Bulgar culture and associated Slavic tribes. So you need to do some research before you try and check people.

Maybe Kosova had Serbo-Croatian speaking Slavic tribes settling yet even then the impact was minimal from a ydna side of things(meaning whatever Slavic input was mostly by women). Most toponyms in Eastern Kosova of Slavic origin are of the Bulgarian derivation. Regardless most of these inputs were absorbed early on in the Middle Ages.

You still all detract from and ignore the fact that, early Indo european remains were very North and North East European like. One female Montenegrin illyrian Sample(presumed to be) came out completely Lithuanian like almost.

What you all fail at making a distinction between; and seem to over estimate, is the actual percentage of Slavic input. Albanians in average are about 5-15 percent more steppe than the classical Illyrian/Balkan Roman samples. The tribes brining northern and eastern admixture in the Middle Ages were mostly Slavs yet not exclusive too, as East germanic tribes whom already spent significant time in Eastern Europe, brought additional northern input into the region. Even Avars had some similar admixture shared with some East Europeans. There was R1a/I2a in Avar/Magyar elite graves already in the Middle Ages. Some of which belongs to typically “Slavic” haplogroups.

Don’t presume to act like all is known. And don’t claim all steppe in Albanians is exclusively from Slavs or even Serbs for that matter. You’re dead wrong. Maybe in Montenegro Albanian and Northwest Albanian cases it’s mostly from Serbo-Croatian tribes. But most of Slavic input in Albania proper is from Slavic tribes distantly related to East Balkan speaking Bulgarians and North Macedonians.

Additionally, we lack definitive Proto Slavic remains predating the migration. We don’t even have migration era Balkan Slavs, to truly know, were they entirely steppe like? Could they also have had southern admixture?

There is not one sample but many used as a proxy for Slavs as they are not homogeneous tribes or people.

So you claim I am being arrogant when I simply am illustrating the basic facts of the matter. You’re ascribing label to genetic components made up of numbers, codes and algorithms. Labels WE assign. Don’t be so naive.

Just yesterday a G25 calculator with only 4 components selected Illyrian for the closest fit for a Arab who took the test. The algorithm merely selects the closest population with similar admixture however distant despite not being an accurate calculator for his ancestry. So I guess Arabs are Illyrians if people take things seriously.

Ancient people’s were not uniform. They mixed back and forth. A Proto-Thracian was Swedish/Central Asian like. Key word is “Like”. Not “IS”.

[Mingle]

if they cluster together with Albanian:AL82, then this means that they are partly Slavic/Baltic.

https://i.imgur.com/EVLrEbl.png

https://i.imgur.com/9Q3PLI6.png

He's more Slavic-admixed than average, but he's not some outlier. He genetically clusters with other Albanians. He can get modeled as 90% Albanian and 10% Ukrainian. If you compare him specifically to Albanians from a region of Albania where Slavic-admixture is higher, he could be identical to them.

His top 25:


Distance to: Albanian:AL82
0.02617415 Gagauz
0.02638101 Albanian
0.02787250 Greek
0.03032093 Moldavian
0.03171649 Bulgarian
0.03356925 Italian_Liguria
0.03526998 Italian_Piedmont
0.03621599 Macedonian
0.03701067 Swiss_Italian
0.03776762 Italian_Marche
0.03791067 Romanian
0.03893418 Italian_Lombardy
0.03895266 Italian_Tuscany
0.03964736 Italian_Northeast
0.04010991 Italian_Veneto
0.04151017 Serbian
0.04152178 Italian_Bergamo
0.04194171 Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige
0.04387505 Italian_Umbria
0.04435328 Italian_Molise
0.04594903 Italian_Abruzzo
0.04688553 Montenegrin
0.04743981 Italian_Lazio
0.04794007 Italian_Aosta_Valley
0.04852614 French_Corsica