For the OR members Loki poll

[Skandi]

Do you believe in this OR statement on Loki?


Clearly then you will see why Loki is not honoured by the Odinic Rite, the Rite are not deceived into seeing him as a prankster who just went too far. We do not in any way seek to toast, honour or `laugh` with this entity. Within ourselves, within our community, within all levels of reality we strive to bind Loki.

We seek to evolve, we seek the evolution of our folk organism, we seek an attainment of higher consciousness and folk consciousness.... we must therefore strive at all times to bind Loki within and without.

So the Answer would be yes if you see him as a "devil" figure

And No if you see him as either another side of Odin or a joker.

Now lets see if anyone will answer!

[Frigga]

I'm not an official member of the Odinic Rite, even if I am on their forum Odinist.net. But, I do have to say that I'm not completely in agreement with the above statement. Loki did do good things for the Gods, even if in the Eddas he turned evil. But, I have a strong suspicion that maybe Loki was turned into the "Satan" character by the Christian monks who transcribed the Norse myths. It may have been an attempt to try to convince the hold outs against Christianity to say, "See, even one of your own Gods turned purely evil, and served the will of Satan, therefore, the real God holds sway over all of the earth, and even over your own *pathetic* Gods". Now, this is my own speculation, and that was an extreme example. And, I may very well be wrong.

[Baron Samedi]

I'm an ex OR member.

No, I never did feel that way about the deity.... To one-dimensional for my tastes.

[Heimmacht]

Loki is a part of life as well as all the gods and godesses are. Chaos and destruction is his part, out of destruction comes new life, you can fight the chaos or understand the chaos, but chaos can also bring creativity.

I dont believe in Devils or any other scapegoats, we Odinist/Asatruars/Forn sed followers (whatever), should not fear ány aspects of life, we should strife to understand them and deal with it.

[Solwyn]

I voted "unsure" because I don't really see Loki as a devil, but then, I don't believe he's just a joker, either. I see the gods as archetypes, therefore they all live within us, not just the ones we feel a particular kinship with. I've had a similar discussion with my son, not just about Loki, but about Freyja as well, because he's been reading the myths and sees how the gods interact with each other. He asked me on a few occasions why anyone would bother to acknowledge "assholes and drama queens" (his lovely choice words). :coffee:

My explanation was that we all carry elements of those aspects within ourselves. We may be mostly Thor, for example, helping people, being an all-round "good guy", and making sure that our friends don't get picked on, but sometimes we have a bad day and we can't let go of something so we carry on about it to the point that everyone around us wants to barf because the drama won't end (Freyja). Then we go back to being Thor after we've settled down. Sometimes someone does something that slights us and we get bitter about it, so we decide to fix his wagon, and we behave in underhanded and sneaky ways that show our mean streak (Loki). Other days we are quite happy to hum a merry tune and skip through the flowers and the things that people try to pick at us about go right over our heads because we're having such a good day(Idun).

This may sound rather facile but bear in mind, of course, that this is how I explained things to a fourteen year old who would have wandered off muttering if I'd tried to get wordier-than-thou with the lore. Now, although I don't see Loki as some high and mighty demon hell-bent on destruction, I also don't see his archetypal aspects as being worth celebrating, either. To me, based on my interpretation of the myths, Loki comes off as two-faced and cowardly, insecure, self-centred, and needing to be bailed out of his own horseshit on more than one occasion - hardly qualities I would like to foster within myself or anyone close to me.

Loki has boundless amounts of energy, but in the myths he comes off as a sneaky brat with ADHD. I see Loki in the same light that I view The Fool - immaturity, impulsiveness, and creativity that needs to be tempered and properly channeled so that the end results don't get out of hand.

In my world, Loki gets a short leash.

[Vargtand]

Well I am not a member of OR nor a member of organised or unorganised organisation which dwells upon ancestral faith so my opinion might not count but as you all know that has never deterred me before so why should it now?


I see Loki as the trickster but I would not go so far as to say he is the embodiment of evil, as in Satan for instance, though Satanists would argue otherwise and thus we would create quite a lengthy debate...

I do see him as the personification of the sum of humanities bad traits, although there are sagas which tells about him in a more positive light, that might only serve as a reminder that even the vilest can do good...

Interestingly enough Oden did keep him around despite his.. how should we say shortcomings.. And Oden being all wise surely would have seen the trickery and deceit of even a deity...

So a more interesting question I think would be what would posses the all wise Oden to keep Loki around? I think (although now I am reading in to this to see to my own ends..) that he kept him around for the simple thing that without him there could not be good, there could not be just there could not be heroic, as little as there can not be rich with out the poor, a sort of and although one should try not to draw parallels to Christianity...

But even here we see the need for just this; we see the need to create a Heaven and a Hell, a god and a devil, a force of good and a force of evil. Only in order to allow the multiple colours of grey to exist in between.

Unlike Christianity though, Germanic faith paganism at large I think.. saw to it that include this duality in everything thus showing our people that there is not 1 good and 1 evil, evil comes in many forms and good does as well. Even the wolves can be with the lambs if he is subtle enough.

Or some such.

Just my take on it.

[Brynhild]

I'm not OR, but I definitely wouldn't uphold that stance on Loki. I don't know why people are so frightened of him to be quite honest...

[Aemma]

LOL! Okay I'm the only one that has answered yes so far. LOL! Hmmm....

Alright, explanation: I haven't read the thread yet in order to come at this question with my own fresh perspective as it were, so please bear with me in the event that I'm reiterating something that someone else has elaborated upon. I also went according to your instructions Thrym and answered yes to Loki = 'devil' or no to Loki = another face of Odin/joker. Given this kind of clear cut definition, the answer was hands down Loki = 'devil'.

And now for my rationale....

Though yes I admit to seeing Loki as a trickster and he is Odin's blood brother, I think that in the framework of the OR's interpretation of the Loki figure, he does represent the archetype for 'evil' (the equivalent of the Christian 'devil' figure) at some basic level. With respect to this, he represents all that is negative in the world and that which we might choose to work towards overcoming, be that at the self-awareness level all the way to the super consciousness awareness level, and everything in between. One mustn't forget that interpretations given at the OR have very much to do with a non-literalist approach. And the OR tends to focus on the strong dichtomy of 'good' versus 'evil'. It might sound simplistic and it is to some degree but it serves a purpose in terms of making us become more introspective about ourselves and the world and for recognising that there are opposing forces in the world.

Having said all of this, I fervently believe that Loki does serve a very necessary function in our pantheon and always will. I would never want the complete obliteration of Loki as a member of our pantheon, ever. At a more fundamental level, he represents an opposing force in Life and Being which is truly important and should never be negated nor played down nor refused. And note I chose my word carefully here: Loki is an opposing force. It is difficult to not speak of him as a negative force, but in reality he is an opposing force in the guise of the negative. The terms 'negative' and 'positive' carry a value of judgment which is not always apparent nor necessary in the discussion and interpretation of Loki. But this is how the OR has chosen to offer its interpretation. I think it more so to the point if Loki is instead seen more so as an opposing force, where no value jugment is attached to this force. Thus Loki becomes an antithesis of the thesis and nothing more which again echoes a most Germanic way of metaphysical interpreation: not good versus evil, but ice versus fire. The former is laden with judgment while the latter is not. The latter more correctly imho defines the reality of Life and Being: things just are. And inasmuch as they are opposites, as with any opposites in life, they both attract and repel, forever continuing in the dance of giving and taking, fusion and individuation--polar extremes which become one and the same depending on persepctive and vantage point. Different but not.

This is the importance of Loki and more importantly his relevance: a nd to his existence and the importance of such makes us aware of our Germanic system of Thought whixh is based not on principles of 'good' and 'evil' per se, but Force versus Opposing Force.

I'm not sure that this makes any sense. I'm in a bit of a rush to write it right now and will come back to tweak it later. But for now it'll have to do for a start. :)

Cheers Thrym! Great question!...Aemma

[Baron Samedi]

Why do you need force versus opposing force?

Chaos merely "is"

Look around you in nature.

[Aemma]

Why do you need force versus opposing force?

Chaos merely "is"

Look around you in nature.

Well I think we're saying the same thing Hellasson...I'm just breaking it down into its component parts. Force versus opposing force acknowledges dynamism. Whereas for me, seeing 'chaos as merely is', doesn't readily denote any type of creative force or dynamism, but continues the more Christian type of thinking that is static. It's much like appreciating the inner workings of a time piece: exploring the insides of such, one sees many wonders and can ponder the mysteries of activity, forces, dynamism, fluidity, motion, cycles--in short a goodly number of things. Whereas merely looking at the time piece itself and simply acknowledging it as an entity unto itself does not incite me to ponder its essence.

It's just a bit of a different vantage point I suppose. Nothing more Hellasson. I do think that we're saying the same thing in the end though.

Cheers!...Aemma

[Baron Samedi]

I assure you, there is nothing "Christian" about my thinking in the least. Odin and the world he carved forth (our souls) came to be through chaos.

Loki is that force that "creates" things (events) that mold other characters into something new.

I would dare say that the Eddas would be quite boring if it weren't for him, and there would not be that much for the Aesir to do...

We can relate this world view to our lives. If there was no greater "cause" to go against.... What would be the point.

[Aemma]

No no you misunderstand me Hellasson. I'm sorry. I'm not 100% attentive to how I'm formulating my thoughts right now.

I mean to say that to not recognise such things as chaos and what I have chosen to describe the same concept but more so into its component parts of force versus opposing force is to have a Christian perspective which promotes categoricalness--an idea to which I do not subscribe.

My apologies if I made it sound as though you were Christian in your thinking. I know that you aren't. :)

Again, I believe that we're saying the same thing but in a different way is all. Of course Loki is a necessary figure. We wouldn't be anywhere without his Being in the world. I suppose what the OR does not condone is Loki worship of any sort. It is what it is I suppose. Though the OR at first blush seems to have a very categorical way themselves with respect to interpretation of notions of 'good' and 'evil'--well more so the specific language that is used-- I think that these simplified ways are an attempt to set a framework for further assessment and meditation on the concepts of antithetical notions and how they all fit into our respective worldviews. It just happens to be basic language that is used at the OR, to wit, 'good' versus 'evil'. But make no mistake, most of us there do not see things in such face-value categorical terms. As I was once told when I first joined the OR, it is all a matter of "courses for horses." :)

Cheers!...Aemma

[Psychonaut]

Loki is that force that "creates" things (events) that mold other characters into something new.

Following this train of thought, I think that we can look at Loki as manifesting in the random mutations that are responsible for the evolution of species. It's chaos, but a somewhat benign and sometimes helpful chaos.

Also, looking at the dichotomy of Law and Chaos (how Moorcockian :D), rather than seeing them as opposing forces of equal power, which seems like a very Zoroastrian notion, I think it is both truer to the myths and to what we know of the universe to view Chaos as being the state of nature that all is born from and that all shall return to one day. The ordered cosmos that we are now apart of can only be a temporary sandcastle, built during the eye of a storm.

[Lyfing]

Well, I ain’t no OR member. It’s a fine organization from what I can tell and I’m glad it’s around. I wish them the best. From the way it looks that don’t matter none in regards posting in this thread though..

Thank you Thyrmheim for making it..

One of the things I have continually done is to try to get away from the “good and evil” and the “order and chaos” duality of things. There is no denying such in life. There is night and day, man and woman, and all the rest. I ain’t no Hindu man but here is their story about it from Joseph Campbell‘s Oriental Mythology..


The extent to which the mythologies--and therewith psychologies--of the Orient and Occident diverged in the course of the period between the dawn of civilization in the Near East and the present age of mutual rediscovery appears in their opposed versions of the shared mythological image of the first being, who was originally one but became two,

“In the beginning,” states an Indian example of c. 700 B.C., preserved in the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad,

This universe was nothing but the Self in the form of a man. It looked around and saw that there was nothing but itself, whereupon its first shout was, “ It is I!”; whence the concept “I” arose. ( And that is why, even now, when addressed, one answers first, “It is I!” only then giving the other name that one bears.)

Then he was afraid. (That is why anyone alone is afraid.) But he considered: “ Since there is no one here but myself, what is there to fear?” Wherupon the fear departed. ( For what should have been feared? It is only to a second that fear refers. )

However, he still lacked delight ( therefore, we lack delight when alone ) and desired a second. He was exactly as large as a man and woman embracing. This Self then divided itself in two parts; and with that, there were a master and a mistress. ( Therefore this body, by itself, as a sage Yajnavalkya declares, is like half of a split pea. And that is why, indeed, this space is filled by a woman.)

The male embraced the female, and from that the human race arose. She, however, reflected: “How can he unite with me, who am produced from himself? Well then, let me hide!” She became a cow, he a bull and united with her; and from that cattle arose. She became a mare, he a stallion; she and ass, he a donkey and united with her; and from that solid-hoofed animals arose. She became a goat, he a buck; she a sheep, he a ram and united with her; and from that goats and sheep arose. Thus he pured forth all paring things, down to the ants. Then he realized: “I, actually, am creation; for I have pured forth all this.” Whence arose the concept “Creation” [Sanskrit srstih; “what is pured forth”]

Anyone understanding this becomes, truly, himself a creator in this creation.

Oriental Mythology, pages 9-10

Superman is beyond good and evil…beyond duality..a creator in this creation..


But tell me, my brethren, what the child can do, which even the lion could not do? Why hath the preying lion still to become a child?

Innocence is the child, and forgetfulness, a new beginning, a game, a selfrolling wheel, a first movement, a holy Yea.

Aye, for the game of creating, my brethren, there is needed a holy Yea unto life: ITS OWN will, willeth now the spirit; HIS OWN world winneth the world`s outcast.

Thus Spake Zarathustra


Loki is a prime example..he’s a dude that had babies..and Odin is his blood-brother

Later,
-Lyfing

[Baron Samedi]

Well, I ain’t no OR member. It’s a fine organization from what I can tell and I’m glad it’s around. I wish them the best. From the way it looks that don’t matter none in regards posting in this thread though..

Thank you Thyrmheim for making it..

One of the things I have continually done is to try to get away from the “good and evil” and the “order and chaos” duality of things. There is no denying such in life. There is night and day, man and woman, and all the rest. I ain’t no Hindu man but here is their story about it from Joseph Campbell‘s Oriental Mythology..



Superman is beyond good and evil…beyond duality..a creator in this creation..




Loki is a prime example..he’s a dude that had babies..and Odin is his blood-brother

Later,
-Lyfing

Lyfing, you are such an Odian it's not even funny. :thumb001:

[Absinthe]

I'm obviously not an OR member (sorry for contaminating the votes :p) and I think that the notion of "evil figure", "devil" and such, belongs to Semitic dualism.

To me Loki is an incarnation of Chaos or entropy that is a natural force without which the Universe would fall apart. Nothing inherently "bad" or "wrong" about the driving forces of Nature.

[Aemma]

I'm obviously not an OR member (sorry for contaminating the votes :p) and I think that the notion of "evil figure", "devil" and such, belongs to Semitic dualism.

To me Loki is an incarnation of Chaos or entropy that is a natural force without which the Universe would fall apart. Nothing inherently "bad" or "wrong" about the driving forces of Nature.

I agree with you on this point Absinthe and I seriously doubt that anybody at the OR is even suggesting such. But without putting too fine of a point on it, I will come to the OR's defence (of course) and reiterate that its stance (what you call 'Semitic dualism', which I don't agree with your assessment btw) is such in order to dissuade people from actively worshipping Loki. The OR has its reasons for this, most of which I am not privy to. But once a member of the OR and if one is attentive enough, one can piece together some bits of history that do paint a fuller picture. Suffice it to say that as an org. it has had the misfortune of having a high profile Heathen as a member also following The Left-Hand Path as espoused by The Temple of Set which precipitated quite the debacle at the OR from my limited understanding of events.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Set) [Sorry I don't know how to embed yet :embarrassed]. Now without passing any judgment from my end as to this particular belief system, from what I gather things were becoming such that the powers that be at the OR didn't want the OR itself as an org. to follow this path. I can only imagine that some of the OR's writings regarding Loki have thus stemmed from some of this history.

The OR has as its primary mission to be at the vanguard of the re-awakening of our Northern Indo-Europeans' indigenous and organic spirituality. It sought to set itself apart from other modes of esoterica such as TOS and so be it.
It is not any better nor worse than any other religious org out there but for some of us it does suit us better. And as I have stated elsewhere, though as a group we do believe in the OR's main missions and tenets (the NNVs and the Charges), as to how the individual deities in our great Germanic pantheon are actually interpreted remains as individual an exercise as anything. Heathen spirituality given what it is (very individualistic within the broader communal framework of the hearth, if one should be so lucky as to be part of one), is very much respected at the OR, however within limits as per its stance on Loki. Again, it just is what it is. No org can be everything to everybody in the end. And I myself learned that fairly early on with my own membership at the AFA. It really wasn't for me.

I realise that some of you have not had the most pleasant of experiences with the OR perhaps or only know it through limited exposure via its website. But I do ask you to also recognise that in terms of preservation efforts it is by far the most hands-on and active in the heathen community--indeed in the Greater Northern European community I would further offer.

Cheers!...Aemma

[Absinthe]

I will come to the OR's defence (of course) and reiterate that its stance (what you call 'Semitic dualism', which I don't agree with your assessment btw) is such in order to dissuade people from actively worshipping Loki.

I understand...


Suffice it to say that as an org. it has had the misfortune of having a high profile Heathen as a member also following The Left-Hand Path as espoused by The Temple of Set which precipitated quite the debacle at the OR from my limited understanding of events.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Set) [Sorry I don't know how to embed yet :embarrassed].

Is that Edred Thorsson aka Stephen Flowers?

[Baron Samedi]

I agree with you on this point Absinthe and I seriously doubt that anybody at the OR is even suggesting such. But without putting too fine of a point on it, I will come to the OR's defence (of course) and reiterate that its stance (what you call 'Semitic dualism', which I don't agree with your assessment btw) is such in order to dissuade people from actively worshipping Loki. The OR has its reasons for this, most of which I am not privy to. But once a member of the OR and if one is attentive enough, one can piece together some bits of history that do paint a fuller picture. Suffice it to say that as an org. it has had the misfortune of having a high profile Heathen as a member also following The Left-Hand Path as espoused by The Temple of Set which precipitated quite the debacle at the OR from my limited understanding of events.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Set) [Sorry I don't know how to embed yet :embarrassed]. Now without passing any judgment from my end as to this particular belief system, from what I gather things were becoming such that the powers that be at the OR didn't want the OR itself as an org. to follow this path. I can only imagine that some of the OR's writings regarding Loki have thus stemmed from some of this history.

The OR has as its primary mission to be at the vanguard of the re-awakening of our Northern Indo-Europeans' indigenous and organic spirituality. It sought to set itself apart from other modes of esoterica such as TOS and so be it.
It is not any better nor worse than any other religious org out there but for some of us it does suit us better. And as I have stated elsewhere, though as a group we do believe in the OR's main missions and tenets (the NNVs and the Charges), as to how the individual deities in our great Germanic pantheon are actually interpreted remains as individual an exercise as anything. Heathen spirituality given what it is (very individualistic within the broader communal framework of the hearth, if one should be so lucky as to be part of one), is very much respected at the OR, however within limits as per its stance on Loki. Again, it just is what it is. No org can be everything to everybody in the end. And I myself learned that fairly early on with my own membership at the AFA. It really wasn't for me.

I realise that some of you have not had the most pleasant of experiences with the OR perhaps or only know it through limited exposure via its website. But I do ask you to also recognise that in terms of preservation efforts it is by far the most hands-on and active in the heathen community--indeed in the Greater Northern European community I would further offer.

Cheers!...Aemma

A ToS Member in the OR? How thrilling!

Agreed, they don't go together, however, the ToS has a sub-group called (if I remember correctly) The Order of the Trapezoid, which studies magics of all cultures (even Germanic).

Edred Thorsson was involved with them at one point.

As a LHP adherant, and someone of a Celto-Germanic mindset, however.... I will stick with (and refer people) towards established, traditional (read "folkish) magical groups of a Germanic mindset, such as the Wolfbund and the Galdragildi.

[Aemma]

I understand...

Thank you for your understanding. :)




Is that Edred Thorsson aka Stephen Flowers?

From my understanding, yes.

Cheers!...Aemma

[Baron Samedi]

Thank you for your understanding. :)





From my understanding, yes.

Cheers!...Aemma

LOL.... Wow.... What the hell did he think he was going to do in the OR?

Odians have no business being in major heathen organizations.... At least not yet.

And perhaps some people revere Loki because they chaos and entropy.... Maybe they are masochists at heart and love a little pain once in a while? (I certainly know I do, and I mean that in a completely spiritual/religious sense).

It all depends ones personal goals.

[Rasvalg]

My personal view and this is after discussions with other Odinists and OR members is that the reason for not hailing Loki is number one to not invite anymore chaos into our lives than needed. Not that he is the semitic devil but that he is chaos incarnate. Yes he is Odins blood brother but that does not make him one of the Gods that are hailed at sumble or one of the gods that we call on for help.
Our lives are chaotic enough without inviting Loki into them for a party.:thumb001:
This is my understanding of the OR's stance. Being not a current OR member and also not the writer of the policy I cannot comment on the mindset at the time of the writing.
I can say this after contact with actual Loki worshipers though. They are completely out of control and wish to bring chaos to every corner of your life. Now I like a little chaos now and then because the tests that come with it make me the man that I am but they are way over the top with the whole chaos thing.
Much better to hail Tyr or Forseti.
This is all that I have to say. Heil Odin.
Oh yes the whole temple of set member thing had great baring on the whole statement that was put forth by the OR I had almost forgot about that time period. To bad that I couldn't LOL. Thanks Aemma for putting it back out there it is actually good that people realize that some of us don't follow the left hand path just that we wish to know the fullness of ourselves.

[Aemma]

As a LHP adherant, and someone of a Celto-Germanic mindset, however.... I will stick with (and refer people) towards established, traditional (read "folkish) magical groups of a Germanic mindset, such as the Wolfbund and the Galdragildi.

Well I'm glad to hear that Hellasson and as it should be in my opinion if one is of a Celto-Germanic mindset. I truly believe that each of us should keep to our own respective cultures' forms of esoterica, not to mention culture-specific spiritual expression.

I should make the attempt perhaps to further explore these groups which you mention. I think it would be most enlightening for me.

Cheers!...Aemma

[Aemma]

LOL.... Wow.... What the hell did he think he was going to do in the OR?

Odians have no business being in major heathen organizations.... At least not yet.

And perhaps some people revere Loki because they chaos and entropy.... Maybe they are masochists at heart and love a little pain once in a while? (I certainly know I do, and I mean that in a completely spiritual/religious sense).

It all depends ones personal goals.

Indeed. We all look for different things in life, hence the reason for different orgs.

[Hildolf]

I understand...

Is that Edred Thorsson aka Stephen Flowers?

Stephen Flowers is no longer a ToS member and has even wrtiten an article describing the differences between the ToS and the Runegild. I think the ToS was just part of a journey for Flowers. The Runegild itself isn't LHP an error often made by people due to Flowers previous involvement with the ToS and of course his works like Lords of the LefthandPath.

My thoughts as an outsider regarding the OR stance on Loki is 1) You know before joining what their stance is and either agree or 2) Loki is of such little concern (i.e no desire to honour Him) that their stance simply isn't an issue.

To be honest I don't see why any heathen would want to Honour Loki or why the OR stance should be an issue.

[Solwyn]

The OR has as its primary mission to be at the vanguard of the re-awakening of our Northern Indo-Europeans' indigenous and organic spirituality. It sought to set itself apart from other modes of esoterica such as TOS and so be it.
It is not any better nor worse than any other religious org out there but for some of us it does suit us better. And as I have stated elsewhere, though as a group we do believe in the OR's main missions and tenets (the NNVs and the Charges), as to how the individual deities in our great Germanic pantheon are actually interpreted remains as individual an exercise as anything. Heathen spirituality given what it is (very individualistic within the broader communal framework of the hearth, if one should be so lucky as to be part of one), is very much respected at the OR, however within limits as per its stance on Loki. Again, it just is what it is. No org can be everything to everybody in the end. And I myself learned that fairly early on with my own membership at the AFA. It really wasn't for me.

I realise that some of you have not had the most pleasant of experiences with the OR perhaps or only know it through limited exposure via its website. But I do ask you to also recognise that in terms of preservation efforts it is by far the most hands-on and active in the heathen community--indeed in the Greater Northern European community I would further offer.

Cheers!...Aemma

Yeehaw lady!!!! What she said. :p

I'd elaborate but I'm still a little wound up from yet another interesting experience in the most multicultural city in North America.:(