Celts = SW French all but now confirmed(MBA Bavarians)

[XenophobicPrussian]

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/10/the-balkan-connection.html

Don't mean to toot my own horn, but I've been calling this for 3 years now(well, I was saying Basque or central French, close enough, right in the middle). Something had to explain the southernly shift of S. Germans if the historic Germanic migration period actually happened and it was either going to be southern shifted(aka non-British Isles like) native Celts or massive Roman admixture, the former seemed much more likely, and I had also seen a PCA of a Tumulus culture sample that I can't find anymore, and more Bell Beaker samples were coming out of places like France that were heavily mixed with extra local EEF, clustering similarly.

As you can see in the PCA below, Lech Valley Beakers and early Bronze Age Lech Valley people are a mish-mash of anything from pure Dutch northern Beaker-like invaders to Iberian-like mixed which is pretty much Dutch beaker-like invader and Otzi(not far from Lech Valley)/Sardinian-like native.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Jz25fROYEyQ/XaFO357lBDI/AAAAAAAAIRU/oevGFs7vHqo-6XWXD_339fJ9Xww5xbyJQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/Lech_Valley_BBC-EBA-MBA_PCA.png

Then once you get to the Middle Bronze Age and everyone has fully mixed with the population homogenized, you have a tight cluster right around where SW French cluster. It is only 3 samples, but they just so happen to all cluster extremely closely and are much later than the older samples.

The Corded Ware samples are dated 2800-2500(one of which has R1b btw), Bell Beaker 2500-2150, EBA 2150-1500, and MBA is 1500-1200 BC(only 300 years before or right when Hallstatt culture is dated to!)

Hallstatt core(darkest colour):
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/23/b9/40/23b94082146ab5b78c2421e18a3fef97.gif

Location of the samples:
https://i.imgur.com/86UDgxw.jpg

This absolute raving Basque madman was right, everyone was Basque: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?132958-Historians-note-that-Odin-who-was-a-very-popular-Thracian-ruler-Thracians-a-hidden-history

Looks like the only late BA and IA population relics left in Europe are certain Scandinavians, Basques/SW French, Polesia Ukrainians/SW Russians, Greek Cretans and Balts, maybe southern Albanians, everyone else are mutts. Also, we need to rename "Hallstatt Nordid" tbh. They probably looked like Charles de Gaulle.

[Adamastor]

They probably looked like Charles de Gaulle.

More like Jacques Cousteau, no?

Anyway, interesting information, it seems early Etruscans were also Basque-like. There was a much bigger genetically Basque continuum in Europe in the past.

[Tenma de Pegasus]

Long Live Basque Europe and all their nations

[Token]

Nice post. In fact, most of Southwestern and Central Europe are going to be Southwestern French/Basque-like before Roman, Germanic and Slavic expansions.

[Tenma de Pegasus]

Somebody can explain why Central Europe is not more SW Europe Celtic alike those days?

Modern Central Europe is much more germanic shifted. Maybe before Christ, germans were living in Poland/Belarus and then migrated to West... does it make sense?

[Token]

Somebody can explain why Central Europe is not more SW Europe Celtic alike those days?

Modern Central Europe is much more germanic shifted. Maybe before Christ, germans were living in Poland/Belarus and then migrated to West... does it make sense?
Have you ever heard of Migration Period?

[Vid Flumina]

Basque have lower steppe and excess WHG compared to these MBA Lech samples, even French South - which is Gascony as a matter of fact - isn't optimal.

I've seen results from Toulouse and they look like a better approximation (higher steppe/WHG drops)

[J. Ketch]

Doesn't surprise me too much tbh, Celtic culture (the ancient continental kind) always struck me as decidedly non-IE and Southern influenced. There also had to be an explanation for the Southern shift of NW Europeans since the Bronze Age.

[Peterski]

Uploading to GEDmatch in 1, 2, 3...


It is only 3 samples

Only three? I think there are more MBA samples.

From Supplementary Tables:

OTTM_100 Lech_MBA
OTTM_109 Lech_MBA
OTTM_110 Lech_MBA
OTTM_141 Lech_MBA
OTTM_141A Lech_MBA
OTTM_142 Lech_MBA
OTTM_151ind1 Lech_MBA
OTTM_151ind2 Lech_MBA
OTTM_152 Lech_MBA
OTTM_154 Lech_MBA
OTTM_156 Lech_MBA
OTTM_165 Lech_MBA
OTTM_79 Lech_MBA
OTTM_81 Lech_MBA
OTTM_84 Lech_MBA
OTTM_87 Lech_MBA
OTTM_91 Lech_MBA
OTTM_92 Lech_MBA
OTTM_94 Lech_MBA
OTTM_97 Lech_MBA

Maybe some have poor quality. I'll try to upload all.

[Tenma de Pegasus]

Have you ever heard of Migration Period?

Obviously duh. I am looking for some good scientific material about those migrations. If somebody have read something revelant and would like to recommend here.

[Samnium]

It seems also that the autochtonous population from S.Italian was sardinian-like in the very past.

[Peterski]

OTTM_151ind2 - kit number EA4660908 - Eurogenes K15 below:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 32.53
2 West_Med 22.1
3 North_Sea 17.32
4 East_Med 11.68
5 Baltic 9.64
6 West_Asian 3.7
7 Eastern_Euro 1.93
8 Red_Sea 1.1

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Spanish_Valencia 3.76
2 Spanish_Andalucia 4.71
3 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 5.59
4 Spanish_Aragon 5.75
5 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 5.86
6 Spanish_Cataluna 5.96
7 Southwest_French 6.18
8 Spanish_Murcia 6.23
9 Spanish_Cantabria 6.82
10 Spanish_Extremadura 7.34
11 Portuguese 8.21
12 North_Italian 9.48
13 Spanish_Galicia 9.98
14 French 13.76
15 French_Basque 14.48
16 Tuscan 15.24
17 South_Dutch 17.51
18 Austrian 19.59
19 Serbian 19.64
20 Romanian 20.16

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 93.1% Spanish_Valencia + 6.9% Bulgarian @ 3.46
2 61% French_Basque + 39% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.47
3 96.4% Spanish_Valencia + 3.6% Lithuanian @ 3.49
4 93.8% Spanish_Valencia + 6.2% Romanian @ 3.52
5 94.8% Spanish_Valencia + 5.2% Croatian @ 3.53
6 96% Spanish_Valencia + 4% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.54
7 96.5% Spanish_Valencia + 3.5% Belorussian @ 3.55
8 96.3% Spanish_Valencia + 3.7% Russian_Smolensk @ 3.55
9 94.6% Spanish_Valencia + 5.4% Greek @ 3.56
10 96% Spanish_Valencia + 4% South_Polish @ 3.56
11 96.3% Spanish_Valencia + 3.7% Ukrainian @ 3.58
12 95.1% Spanish_Valencia + 4.9% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.58
13 96.8% Spanish_Valencia + 3.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.58
14 95.6% Spanish_Valencia + 4.4% Moldavian @ 3.58
15 95.2% Spanish_Valencia + 4.8% Hungarian @ 3.59
16 96.8% Spanish_Valencia + 3.2% Estonian_Polish @ 3.59
17 96.6% Spanish_Valencia + 3.4% Polish @ 3.6
18 96.9% Spanish_Valencia + 3.1% Southwest_Russian @ 3.6
19 94.8% Spanish_Valencia + 5.2% Austrian @ 3.61
20 81.8% Spanish_Aragon + 18.2% Bulgarian @ 3.62

^^^
This one is Spanish-like in K15, not South-West French.

For comparison Eurogenes K13:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 35.33
2 West_Med 28.6
3 Baltic 16.89
4 East_Med 14.77
5 West_Asian 2.99
6 Red_Sea 1.11
7 Sub-Saharan 0.25
8 Oceanian 0.06

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Portuguese 7.13
2 Spanish_Galicia 7.18
3 Spanish_Valencia 7.39
4 Spanish_Cataluna 7.44
5 Spanish_Extremadura 7.96
6 North_Italian 8.19
7 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 8.21
8 Spanish_Cantabria 8.62
9 Spanish_Andalucia 8.63
10 Spanish_Murcia 8.67
11 Southwest_French 8.81
12 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 8.88
13 Spanish_Aragon 11.12
14 French 11.35
15 Tuscan 14.52
16 West_German 16.36
17 South_Dutch 16.45
18 Serbian 17.4
19 Romanian 17.47
20 Austrian 18.46

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 63.5% West_German + 36.5% Sardinian @ 2.76
2 54.4% North_German + 45.6% Sardinian @ 2.92
3 63.4% South_Dutch + 36.6% Sardinian @ 3.18
4 70.6% Southwest_French + 29.4% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.25
5 69.4% Southwest_French + 30.6% Bulgarian @ 3.34
6 51% Swedish + 49% Sardinian @ 3.51
7 53.4% Danish + 46.6% Sardinian @ 3.66
8 70.5% Spanish_Cantabria + 29.5% Bulgarian @ 3.89
9 53.5% North_Dutch + 46.5% Sardinian @ 3.95
10 51.4% Norwegian + 48.6% Sardinian @ 3.96
11 68.4% Southwest_French + 31.6% Romanian @ 3.96
12 78.4% Spanish_Valencia + 21.6% Moldavian @ 4.16
13 78% Southwest_French + 22% Ashkenazi @ 4.21
14 72.5% French + 27.5% Sardinian @ 4.21
15 60.8% Austrian + 39.2% Sardinian @ 4.27
16 69.4% Spanish_Cantabria + 30.6% Romanian @ 4.28
17 52.5% North_Italian + 47.5% Southwest_French @ 4.29
18 79.2% Spanish_Valencia + 20.8% Croatian @ 4.29
19 75.4% Spanish_Andalucia + 24.6% Croatian @ 4.33
20 79.9% Spanish_Andalucia + 20.1% Ukrainian @ 4.35

=====

OTTM_151ind1 - kit number FY3463698 - Eurogenes K15 results:

This one is low coverage - 6925 SNPs used in this evaluation

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 36.41
2 West_Med 16.56
3 Baltic 16.13
4 Eastern_Euro 11.32
5 Atlantic 10.93
6 West_Asian 3.6
7 Amerindian 2.76
8 Red_Sea 2.29
9 Siberian 0.01

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 West_German 13.7
2 East_German 14.48
3 Swedish 14.95
4 Norwegian 15.06
5 North_Swedish 15.33
6 Hungarian 15.51
7 West_Norwegian 16.41
8 South_Dutch 17.11
9 North_Dutch 17.23
10 Southwest_English 17.79
11 North_German 17.94
12 French 18.03
13 Danish 18.19
14 Southwest_Finnish 18.24
15 Finnish 18.5
16 Ukrainian_Lviv 18.84
17 Moldavian 18.97
18 Southeast_English 19.09
19 Ukrainian 19.1
20 Orcadian 19.51

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 69.3% West_German + 30.7% Ukrainian @ 12.02
2 83.1% Swedish + 16.9% Sardinian @ 12.07
3 69% West_German + 31% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 12.07
4 82.2% North_Swedish + 17.8% Sardinian @ 12.11
5 56.9% West_Norwegian + 43.1% Moldavian @ 12.12
6 62.4% Norwegian + 37.6% Moldavian @ 12.28
7 76.8% West_German + 23.2% Estonian @ 12.48
8 81.9% West_German + 18.1% Erzya @ 12.49
9 63.8% Swedish + 36.2% Moldavian @ 12.6
10 84.1% Norwegian + 15.9% Sardinian @ 12.62
11 53.8% Hungarian + 46.2% West_Norwegian @ 12.64
12 82.4% West_German + 17.6% Lithuanian @ 12.64
13 75% West_German + 25% South_Polish @ 12.68
14 52.4% Norwegian + 47.6% Hungarian @ 12.7
15 57.3% West_Norwegian + 42.7% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 12.71
16 72.4% West_German + 27.6% Finnish @ 12.71
17 81.7% West_German + 18.3% Kargopol_Russian @ 12.74
18 73.9% West_German + 26.1% Moldavian @ 12.77
19 63.5% Norwegian + 36.5% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 12.79
20 78.6% West_German + 21.4% East_Finnish @ 12.8

[Samnium]

So basically Iberians, SW French and North-Italians can be considered as the "best" descendants of celts. Interesting.

[Peterski]

^^^
I would wait with such conclusions as even Celtiberians were more northern-shifted than these Lech Valley samples:

Kit number XX4675994 - I3757 Celtiberian
Kit number ED6110729 - I3758 Celtiberian
Kit number RF6275768 - I3759 Celtiberian

[Samnium]

^^^
I would wait with such conclusions as even Celtiberians were more northern-shifted than these Lech Valley samples:

Kit number XX4675994 - I3757 Celtiberian
Kit number ED6110729 - I3758 Celtiberian
Kit number RF6275768 - I3759 Celtiberian

Yeah they are more northern-shifted, English populations pop up and German, Scottish as well.

[Vid Flumina]

Quick model with custom calc:

https://i.imgur.com/3RP6I4F.png


Apricity member dududud (part Sardinian/part Northern French) seems even closer:

https://i.imgur.com/8Lr27F5.png


Basque have lower steppe and excess WHG compared to these MBA Lech samples, even French South - which is Gascony as a matter of fact - isn't optimal.

I've seen results from Toulouse and they look like a better approximation (higher steppe/WHG drops)

As expected:

https://i.imgur.com/UHFq0if.png

[J. Ketch]

^^^
I would wait with such conclusions as even Celtiberians were more northern-shifted than these Lech Valley samples:

Kit number XX4675994 - I3757 Celtiberian
Kit number ED6110729 - I3758 Celtiberian
Kit number RF6275768 - I3759 Celtiberian
The Celts who expanded into Iberia were probably somewhere between SW French and NW Europeans.

[Peterski]

Only one Lech_MBA sample was added to Global25 ???

I can see only one in the spreadsheet.

[Calpurnius]

Rather than Basques it seems like, at least the one that made it into G25, was closest to NE Iberians. Basques have excess WHG and somewhat less steppe. Still pretty damn close.
Thinking about it, that "Roman" legionary from Germany, FN_2 from ~300-500AD that appeared to be of SW French origins may have even been one of such locals.
https://i.imgur.com/W0irRQm.png
https://i.imgur.com/SD7DKvM.png
https://i.imgur.com/TkeCjON.png

[Peterski]

Rather than Basques it seems like, at least the one that made it into G25, was closest to NE Iberians.

This is exactly what he scores also in Eurogenes K15 - Spain Valencia with eastern shift.

BTW soon I will post the kit numbers for all. But most of them are probably low coverage.

=====

Kit numbers for all 20 (later I will delete the ones with the lowest quality):

EA4660908 - OTTM_151ind2
FY3463698 - OTTM_151ind1
NA5070389 - OTTM_79
MP9687031 - OTTM_81
FL5829200 - OTTM_84
MA9697954 - OTTM_87
UX7977361 - OTTM_91
AA3277189 - OTTM_92
XF6070401 - OTTM_94
DW2518913 - OTTM_97
ZR3509780 - OTTM_100
SY9482279 - OTTM_109
SK2965316 - OTTM_110
ET7029712 - OTTM_141
BV1276995 - OTTM_141A
XS1398451 - OTTM_142
KL3729710 - OTTM_152
NQ4057442 - OTTM_154
QJ6801120 - OTTM_156
UF3982508 - OTTM_165

[Vid Flumina]

Some of the guys at Empuries also looked similar, higher steppe then Iberians/Celtiberians and almost no WHG - mind you, anything south of Pyrenees back then had higher WHG than modern Iberians (except Basque of course)

I initially thought about some stranded Ligures but now Celt or Celto-Ligures mix doesn't seem far-fetched..

[Peterski]

OTTM_84 in Eurogenes K13 and K15:

K13:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 39.96
2 West_Med 21.28
3 West_Asian 11.83
4 Baltic 11.75
5 East_Med 11.04
6 Siberian 3.86
7 East_Asian 0.27

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 French 9.52
2 Spanish_Cataluna 9.84
3 Portuguese 10.84
4 Spanish_Murcia 11.12
5 Spanish_Extremadura 11.22
6 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 11.27
7 Spanish_Andalucia 11.47
8 Spanish_Galicia 11.48
9 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 11.62
10 Spanish_Valencia 11.72
11 Spanish_Cantabria 12.34
12 North_Italian 12.68
13 West_German 13.04
14 South_Dutch 13.2
15 Southwest_French 13.25
16 Spanish_Aragon 13.42
17 Tuscan 17.35
18 Southeast_English 17.73
19 Southwest_English 18.09
20 Austrian 18.39

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 77.4% Spanish_Aragon + 22.6% Tabassaran @ 5.52
2 83.8% Spanish_Cataluna + 16.2% Tabassaran @ 5.6
3 78.1% Spanish_Aragon + 21.9% Lezgin @ 5.81
4 84.5% Spanish_Cataluna + 15.5% Lezgin @ 5.81
5 85% Spanish_Cataluna + 15% North_Ossetian @ 5.85
6 84.2% Spanish_Cataluna + 15.8% Chechen @ 5.86
7 84.7% Spanish_Cataluna + 15.3% Ossetian @ 5.87
8 84.2% Spanish_Cataluna + 15.8% Kabardin @ 5.93
9 82.5% Spanish_Cataluna + 17.5% Nogay @ 5.97
10 84.4% Spanish_Cataluna + 15.6% Balkar @ 5.98
11 77.9% Spanish_Aragon + 22.1% Chechen @ 6.08
12 79.6% Spanish_Cantabria + 20.4% Tabassaran @ 6.11
13 78.1% Southwest_French + 21.9% Tabassaran @ 6.23
14 85.2% Spanish_Cataluna + 14.8% Adygei @ 6.23
15 84.2% Spanish_Cataluna + 15.8% Tadjik @ 6.25
16 80.2% Spanish_Cantabria + 19.8% Lezgin @ 6.27
17 78.7% Southwest_French + 21.3% Lezgin @ 6.33
18 81.1% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + 18.9% Tabassaran @ 6.36
19 84.5% Spanish_Cataluna + 15.5% Kumyk @ 6.45
20 78.1% Spanish_Aragon + 21.9% Kabardin @ 6.53

K15:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 27.43
2 North_Sea 24.15
3 West_Med 15.81
4 Baltic 13.06
5 East_Med 12.67
6 West_Asian 3.37
7 Siberian 2.57
8 Eastern_Euro 0.94

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Spanish_Cataluna 8.99
2 French 9.68
3 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 9.73
4 Portuguese 10.45
5 Spanish_Murcia 10.65
6 Spanish_Galicia 10.66
7 Spanish_Extremadura 11.55
8 Spanish_Valencia 11.79
9 North_Italian 11.83
10 South_Dutch 12.22
11 Spanish_Andalucia 13.03
12 Spanish_Cantabria 13.11
13 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 13.19
14 Southwest_French 13.26
15 Spanish_Aragon 13.84
16 West_German 13.84
17 Austrian 15.08
18 Southwest_English 15.64
19 Serbian 15.65
20 East_German 16.17

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 63.4% North_Italian + 36.6% Irish @ 7.07
2 73.9% Spanish_Cataluna + 26.1% Hungarian @ 7.24
3 61.1% North_Italian + 38.9% Southeast_English @ 7.3
4 65% North_Italian + 35% West_Scottish @ 7.3
5 64.7% North_Italian + 35.3% North_Dutch @ 7.31
6 61.8% North_Italian + 38.2% North_German @ 7.39
7 70.4% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon + 29.6% Hungarian @ 7.42
8 66.4% Spanish_Murcia + 33.6% Hungarian @ 7.47
9 85.3% Spanish_Cataluna + 14.7% Estonian @ 7.5
10 65.2% North_Italian + 34.8% Danish @ 7.51
11 68.6% North_Italian + 31.4% Swedish @ 7.51
12 56.2% Spanish_Valencia + 43.8% West_German @ 7.55
13 83.3% Spanish_Cataluna + 16.7% Finnish @ 7.56
14 60.1% North_Italian + 39.9% Southwest_English @ 7.56
15 82.8% Spanish_Cataluna + 17.2% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 7.58
16 73% Spanish_Cataluna + 27% Austrian @ 7.58
17 86.9% Spanish_Cataluna + 13.1% Lithuanian @ 7.58
18 65.3% Spanish_Andalucia + 34.7% Swedish @ 7.61
19 52.2% Spanish_Andalucia + 47.8% West_German @ 7.64
20 67% North_Italian + 33% Orcadian @ 7.64

[Peterski]

This one is of decent quality:

OTTM_156 - kit number QJ6801120 - 22157 SNPs used in K15:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 35.02
2 West_Med 26.01
3 North_Sea 15.88
4 Baltic 6.54
5 Eastern_Euro 6.14
6 Red_Sea 3.44
7 East_Med 3.43
8 Oceanian 1.46
9 West_Asian 1.07
10 Sub-Saharan 0.54
11 Northeast_African 0.47

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Southwest_French 5.06
2 Spanish_Cantabria 6.02
3 Spanish_Aragon 6.64
4 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 7.53
5 Spanish_Valencia 8.45
6 Spanish_Andalucia 8.84
7 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 10.03
8 French_Basque 10.06
9 Spanish_Cataluna 10.43
10 Spanish_Extremadura 10.66
11 Spanish_Murcia 10.82
12 Portuguese 11.65
13 Spanish_Galicia 12.73
14 North_Italian 15.99
15 French 16.82
16 South_Dutch 20.05
17 Tuscan 21.91
18 Southwest_English 22.49
19 Austrian 23.22
20 Southeast_English 23.89

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 79.9% Southwest_French + 20.1% French_Basque @ 4.53
2 70.6% Spanish_Cantabria + 29.4% French_Basque @ 4.76
3 98.8% Southwest_French + 1.2% Papuan @ 4.79
4 94.7% Southwest_French + 5.3% Sardinian @ 4.82
5 98.6% Southwest_French + 1.4% NAN_Melanesian @ 4.85
6 98.4% Southwest_French + 1.6% Mozabite_Berber @ 5.03
7 98.6% Southwest_French + 1.4% Moroccan @ 5.03
8 99.4% Southwest_French + 0.6% Maasai @ 5.04
9 99.6% Southwest_French + 0.4% Mbuti_Pygmy @ 5.04
10 99.6% Southwest_French + 0.4% Luhya @ 5.04
11 99.6% Southwest_French + 0.4% Biaka_Pygmy @ 5.04
12 99.5% Southwest_French + 0.5% San @ 5.04
13 99.6% Southwest_French + 0.4% Bantu_N.E. @ 5.04
14 99.6% Southwest_French + 0.4% Bantu_S.E. @ 5.04
15 99.6% Southwest_French + 0.4% Bantu_S.W. @ 5.04
16 99.6% Southwest_French + 0.4% Mandenka @ 5.04
17 99.7% Southwest_French + 0.3% Yoruban @ 5.04
18 99.6% Southwest_French + 0.4% Sudanese @ 5.04
19 99.6% Southwest_French + 0.4% Ethiopian_Anuak @ 5.04
20 99.5% Southwest_French + 0.5% Sandawe @ 5.05

And K13:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 35.96
2 West_Med 33.4
3 Baltic 15.53
4 East_Med 8.57
5 Red_Sea 2.62
6 Oceanian 1.94
7 Sub-Saharan 1.51
8 West_Asian 0.3
9 Northeast_African 0.17

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Southwest_French 7.23
2 Spanish_Cantabria 7.82
3 Spanish_Galicia 8.88
4 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 9.7
5 Spanish_Valencia 9.94
6 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 10.09
7 Spanish_Extremadura 10.09
8 Portuguese 10.11
9 Spanish_Andalucia 10.2
10 Spanish_Cataluna 10.27
11 Spanish_Aragon 10.76
12 Spanish_Murcia 11.2
13 North_Italian 14.16
14 French 14.86
15 French_Basque 17.82
16 South_Dutch 19.55
17 West_German 20
18 Tuscan 20.18
19 Austrian 22.3
20 Serbian 22.9

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 52.5% Sardinian + 47.5% Swedish @ 4.75
2 52.2% Sardinian + 47.8% Norwegian @ 5.04
3 51% Orcadian + 49% Sardinian @ 5.26
4 50.2% Sardinian + 49.8% North_Dutch @ 5.32
5 50.1% Irish + 49.9% Sardinian @ 5.42
6 53.2% Southwest_English + 46.8% Sardinian @ 5.43
7 50% West_Scottish + 50% Sardinian @ 5.58
8 50.6% Sardinian + 49.4% Danish @ 5.67
9 53.2% Southeast_English + 46.8% Sardinian @ 5.78
10 85.8% Southwest_French + 14.2% Sardinian @ 5.83
11 54.8% Sardinian + 45.2% North_Swedish @ 5.95
12 50% Sardinian + 50% North_German @ 6.02
13 90.6% Southwest_French + 9.4% Moroccan @ 6.11
14 90.7% Southwest_French + 9.3% Mozabite_Berber @ 6.15
15 91.3% Southwest_French + 8.7% Tunisian @ 6.24
16 91.2% Southwest_French + 8.8% Algerian @ 6.29
17 58.2% South_Dutch + 41.8% Sardinian @ 6.44
18 96.9% Southwest_French + 3.1% NAN_Melanesian @ 6.48
19 97.6% Southwest_French + 2.4% Papuan @ 6.5
20 89.2% Southwest_French + 10.8% Greek_Thessaly @ 6.57

[XenophobicPrussian]

OTTM_151ind1 - kit number FY3463698 - Eurogenes K15 results:

This one is low coverage - 6925 SNPs used in this evaluation

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 36.41
2 West_Med 16.56
3 Baltic 16.13
4 Eastern_Euro 11.32
5 Atlantic 10.93
6 West_Asian 3.6
7 Amerindian 2.76
8 Red_Sea 2.29
9 Siberian 0.01

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 West_German 13.7
2 East_German 14.48
3 Swedish 14.95
4 Norwegian 15.06
5 North_Swedish 15.33
6 Hungarian 15.51
7 West_Norwegian 16.41
8 South_Dutch 17.11
9 North_Dutch 17.23
10 Southwest_English 17.79
11 North_German 17.94
12 French 18.03
13 Danish 18.19
14 Southwest_Finnish 18.24
15 Finnish 18.5
16 Ukrainian_Lviv 18.84
17 Moldavian 18.97
18 Southeast_English 19.09
19 Ukrainian 19.1
20 Orcadian 19.51

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 69.3% West_German + 30.7% Ukrainian @ 12.02
2 83.1% Swedish + 16.9% Sardinian @ 12.07
3 69% West_German + 31% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 12.07
4 82.2% North_Swedish + 17.8% Sardinian @ 12.11
5 56.9% West_Norwegian + 43.1% Moldavian @ 12.12
6 62.4% Norwegian + 37.6% Moldavian @ 12.28
7 76.8% West_German + 23.2% Estonian @ 12.48
8 81.9% West_German + 18.1% Erzya @ 12.49
9 63.8% Swedish + 36.2% Moldavian @ 12.6
10 84.1% Norwegian + 15.9% Sardinian @ 12.62
11 53.8% Hungarian + 46.2% West_Norwegian @ 12.64
12 82.4% West_German + 17.6% Lithuanian @ 12.64
13 75% West_German + 25% South_Polish @ 12.68
14 52.4% Norwegian + 47.6% Hungarian @ 12.7
15 57.3% West_Norwegian + 42.7% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 12.71
16 72.4% West_German + 27.6% Finnish @ 12.71
17 81.7% West_German + 18.3% Kargopol_Russian @ 12.74
18 73.9% West_German + 26.1% Moldavian @ 12.77
19 63.5% Norwegian + 36.5% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 12.79
20 78.6% West_German + 21.4% East_Finnish @ 12.8
You sure that one's MBA though? I don't think so. Either you or Davidski made a mistake, because I only see three MBA legend samples on Davidski's PCA. Either he only uploaded the three or disagreed with the dates on some of them. Try to confirm the age of OTTM ind1 and I'll get back to you.

On how many MBA samples there are, even from the paper, I'm not seeing any MBA ones that are more steppe shifted, only pre-1600 BC and I only see three MBA samples(the pink ones). Edit: Nevermind, see 8 now, but they still aren't as northern shifted as that sample in GEDMatch, only 2 have more steppe than EEF and still only see 3 total MBA samples on Davidski's PCA, he must've only uploaded the highest coverage ones or something. If that one is low coverage I'd take the results with a grain of salt. Either way, the average is still definitely around where I said.

https://i.imgur.com/lIJpGmj.jpg

Rather than Basques it seems like, at least the one that made it into G25, was closest to NE Iberians. Basques have excess WHG and somewhat less steppe. Still pretty damn close.
Thinking about it, that "Roman" legionary from Germany, FN_2 from ~300-500AD that appeared to be of SW French origins may have even been one of such locals.
https://i.imgur.com/W0irRQm.png
https://i.imgur.com/SD7DKvM.png
https://i.imgur.com/TkeCjON.png
Yeah, when I first saw that Roman legionary, my immediate thought was Bavarian local, although everyone was saying Spanish immigrant. However, he does indeed have an mtDNA that does peak in Iberia and specifically in Basque country, so I didn't really doubt him being Iberian. The mtDNA does exist in modern South Germany so he may indeed have been a local.

[Peterski]

You sure that one's MBA though?

Check Supplementary Table S1, file aax6219_Mittnik_SM_TableS1.xlsx:

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2019/10/09/science.aax6219.DC1

In column B (population label) in total 20 samples are listed as Lech_MBA.

Only one sample made it to Global25. And which are the 3 used in PCA?

[Vid Flumina]

Only one sample made it to Global25. And which are the 3 used in PCA?

Lech_MBA:OTTM_87_d
Lech_MBA:OTTM_151ind2_d
Lech_MBA:OTTM_156

[Peterski]

Lech_MBA:OTTM_87_d
Lech_MBA:OTTM_151ind2_d
Lech_MBA:OTTM_156

I posted Eurogenes K15 results for 151ind2 and 156 above. Here is for 87 (eastern-shifted?):

10711 SNPs used in this evaluation

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 38.21
2 West_Med 22.42
3 Baltic 11.71
4 Eastern_Euro 10.16
5 North_Sea 6.79
6 West_Asian 5.68
7 Siberian 3.29
8 Northeast_African 1.73

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Southwest_French 13.84
2 French_Basque 15.18
3 Spanish_Aragon 16.09
4 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 16.25
5 Spanish_Andalucia 16.3
6 Spanish_Cantabria 16.32
7 Spanish_Valencia 16.43
8 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 18.5
9 Spanish_Cataluna 18.79
10 Spanish_Murcia 19.31
11 Spanish_Extremadura 19.56
12 Portuguese 20.5
13 Spanish_Galicia 21.68
14 North_Italian 21.99
15 Austrian 23.39
16 French 23.57
17 South_Dutch 24.75
18 Serbian 25.75
19 East_German 25.75
20 Croatian 26.28

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 74.8% French_Basque + 25.2% Tatar @ 10.26
2 76.6% French_Basque + 23.4% Erzya @ 10.38
3 79.6% French_Basque + 20.4% Chuvash @ 10.54
4 81.4% French_Basque + 18.6% Mari @ 10.67
5 75.6% French_Basque + 24.4% Kargopol_Russian @ 10.82
6 75% French_Basque + 25% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 10.83
7 75.3% French_Basque + 24.7% Southwest_Russian @ 10.96
8 73.9% French_Basque + 26.1% Russian_Smolensk @ 10.98
9 75% French_Basque + 25% Estonian_Polish @ 11.06
10 80.2% French_Basque + 19.8% Nogay @ 11.33
11 76% French_Basque + 24% Belorussian @ 11.33
12 70.1% French_Basque + 29.9% Croatian @ 11.34
13 72.3% French_Basque + 27.7% Moldavian @ 11.45
14 78.2% French_Basque + 21.8% Lithuanian @ 11.48
15 82.1% French_Basque + 17.9% Afghan_Turkmen @ 11.59
16 74.5% French_Basque + 25.5% South_Polish @ 11.71
17 75% French_Basque + 25% Polish @ 11.73
18 75.7% French_Basque + 24.3% Ukrainian @ 11.79
19 82.9% French_Basque + 17.1% Uzbeki @ 11.82
20 71.4% French_Basque + 28.6% Bulgarian @ 11.83

[Peterski]

Something had to explain the southernly shift of S. Germans if the historic Germanic migration period actually happened and it was either going to be southern shifted(aka non-British Isles like) native Celts or massive Roman admixture, the former seemed much more likely

But many of modern South Germans are rather shifted in the direction of North Italy and Greece - to the south-east rather than south-west towards SW France and Spain. And I also saw people claiming Celts would be North Italian-like. BA Dalmatians were Bergamo-like too (rather than SW French).

[Token]

Check Supplementary Table S1, file aax6219_Mittnik_SM_TableS1.xlsx:

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/suppl/2019/10/09/science.aax6219.DC1

In column B (population label) in total 20 samples are listed as Lech_MBA.

Only one sample made it to Global25. And which are the 3 used in PCA?

The quality of this sample is very bad, that's why it didn't made it to G25.

[J. Ketch]

[1] "distance%=2.2688"

Creoda_scaled

Wales_CA_EBA,50
England_MBA,40
DEU_Lech_MBA,10

[1] "distance%=1.9458"

Creoda_scaled

Wales_CA_EBA,44
England_EMBA,41.4
DEU_Lech_MBA,12.6
Scotland_MBA,2

[1] "distance%=1.9027"

Creoda_scaled

Scotland_LBA,67
Wales_CA_EBA,26.8
DEU_Lech_MBA,6.2

Calculator still prefers Poland GAC though.



[1] "distance%=1.7807"

Creoda_scaled

Wales_CA_EBA,49
England_EMBA,41.8
POL_Globular_Amphora,9.2

[Tenma de Pegasus]

^^^
I would wait with such conclusions as even Celtiberians were more northern-shifted than these Lech Valley samples:

Kit number XX4675994 - I3757 Celtiberian
Kit number ED6110729 - I3758 Celtiberian
Kit number RF6275768 - I3759 Celtiberian

Despite the migration to southern latitudes, Celtiberians are more northern shifted than other celtic groups of northern latitudes. Celtiberians are more related to Celtics from British Isles than to austrian celtics. I think the primary ancestry of Iberians is the responsible to make Iberia cluster way northern shifted and incompatible to their latitude. The primary ancestry of Iberia is not from a South European Group, its a NW european cornerstone, but the later migrations of Roman population followed by some germanic and arabic input made them half way between North and South Europe genetically. Similar situation happened with the french.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Non-pay wall link to the paper: https://sci-hub.se/10.1126/science.aax6219

Supp info: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/suppl/2019/10/09/science.aax6219.DC1/aax6219-Mittnik-SM.pdf
(official pca on page 38 with 6 samples instead of 3, pretty much the same as Davidski's, all the MBA/pink samples around SW French, 2 even more southern shifted around Iberians)

Not a particularly light skinned(full SLC24 but not 45), blue eyed or lactose tolerant population.

If Peterski or someone wants to upload some of the later samples which may be labeled EBA but are still pretty late(post-1800 BC) and have high SNP coverage: AITI_72, AITI_50, AITI_43, AITI_2, AITI_78, AITI_119, AITI_120, would be nice.

[Peterski]

[1] "distance%=2.2688"

Creoda_scaled

Wales_CA_EBA,50
England_MBA,40
DEU_Lech_MBA,10

[1] "distance%=1.9458"

Creoda_scaled

Wales_CA_EBA,44
England_EMBA,41.4
DEU_Lech_MBA,12.6
Scotland_MBA,2

[1] "distance%=1.9027"

Creoda_scaled

Scotland_LBA,67
Wales_CA_EBA,26.8
DEU_Lech_MBA,6.2

Calculator still prefers Poland GAC though.



[1] "distance%=1.7807"

Creoda_scaled

Wales_CA_EBA,49
England_EMBA,41.8
POL_Globular_Amphora,9.2

Poland GAC as Proto-Celts? No... Try with Poland_Chopice_Wesele_Culture instead.


If Peterski or someone wants to upload some of the later samples which may be labeled EBA but are still pretty late(post-1800 BC) and have high SNP coverage: AITI_72, AITI_50, AITI_43, AITI_2, AITI_78, AITI_119, AITI_120, would be nice.

Okay I will upload them.

[XenophobicPrussian]

But many of modern South Germans are rather shifted in the direction of North Italy and Greece - to the south-east rather than south-west towards SW France and Spain. And I also saw people claiming Celts would be North Italian-like. BA Dalmatians were Bergamo-like too (rather than SW French).
Not really, and Dalmatians/Illyrians have nothing to do with Celts.

S. Germany has an eastern shift because of Slavic admixture, I've tried models for S. Germans and they prefer an Iberian or French source over Italian everytime, although they do get some Italian(and Rhine Germans some of the actual ancient Roman samples) because they do have Roman admixture, it's just not more than 5%, for S. German Celts not to be very southern shifted it would have to mean Roman admixture would have to be somewhere around 25-35%, which is highly unlikely because Romans only went up to the Danube and didn't even hold the territory long.

As for Celtiberian samples being even more northern shifted than these, like the full fledged one British Isles-like sample there, the Celts that moved into Iberia may've been largely from France/La Tene already, not from the Alps area, meaning they could've have a lot of northern Gauls/Bretons/NW French that were closer to full Bell Beakers in their ranks. The Alps, central/south France, S. Germany area is undoubtably home to a native SW French/Iberian-like population, these aren't even the only samples we have, but Swiss Beakers, the one Tumulus culture sample, etc. The area was probably decently populated and Bell Beaker/CW weren't able to just entirely replace the EEF populations there like they did in Britain, the males even put up a pretty good fight because modern South Germany/Austria is a hotspot for G2 in Europe, unlike in Iberia/W. France/Britain where all the male lineages pretty much died out.

[J. Ketch]

Poland GAC as Proto-Celts? No... Try with Poland_Chopice_Wesele_Culture instead.

Wasn't implying that they were.

[Token]

Poland_Chopice_Wesele_Culture
Is this some kind of chant?

[Peterski]

Okay here are the kit numbers for samples requested by XPrussian:

DG9597754 - AITI_72 - in Eurogenes K15: Spanish_Galicia 7.66
CP1480384 - AITI_50 - in Eurogenes K15: South_Dutch 6.38
KK8011389 - AITI_43 - in Eurogenes K15: French 5.43
PS9648941 - AITI_78 - in Eurogenes K15: French 7.47
CN5088059 - AITI_2 - in Eurogenes K15: South_Dutch 9.76
KJ6170001 - AITI_120 - in Eurogenes K15: French 5.48
NJ6500074 - AITI_119 - in Eurogenes K15: French 8.98

In K15 most score between French and South Dutch, one Spain Galicia.

These have much better coverage than even the best of MBA samples.


Is this some kind of chant?

It sounds funny even for a native Polish-speaker. It is on Global25. I don't know what it is, something from South-West Poland.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Okay here are the kit numbers for samples requested by XPrussian:

DG9597754 - AITI_72 - in K15: 1 Spanish_Galicia 7.66
CP1480384 - AITI_50 - in K15: 1 South_Dutch 6.38
KK8011389 - AITI_43 - in K15: 1 French 5.43
PS9648941 - AITI_78 - in K15: 1 French 7.47
CN5088059 - AITI_2 - in K15: 1 South_Dutch 9.76
KJ6170001 - AITI_120 - in K15: 1 French 5.48
NJ6500074 - AITI_119 - in K15: 1 French 8.98

In K15 most score between French and South Dutch, one Spain Galicia.

These have much better coverage than even the best of MBA samples.



It sounds funny even for a native Polish-speaker. It is on Global25. I don't know what it is, something from South-West Poland.
Thanks. All of them are from 1815-1789 BC(page 65 in supp materials).

I might try to plot the average of all of them and the ones you previously uploaded on the K15 pca tool when I have more time.

[Peterski]

If Celts were actually like these AITI samples, then some (the ones who are more southern-shifted than average) of modern South Germans are still majority Celtic in terms of ancestry.

In Eurogenes K15 top 1st Single Distance, most South Germans score South_Dutch, with some scoring West_German (more northern-shifted) and some French (more southern-shifted).

[Vid Flumina]

Celtiberians had lower steppe than MBA Lech sample but were loaded in WHG (picked up locally as they moved in):

"sample": "Test1:Iberia_North_IA_-_I3758",
"fit": 3.8798,
"Beaker_North": 49.17,
"EEF": 40.83,
"WHG": 10,
"Baltic": 0,
"West_Asian": 0,
"Levant": 0,

"sample": "Test2:Iberia_North_IA_-_I3759",
"fit": 2.4751,
"Beaker_North": 49.17,
"EEF": 41.67,
"WHG": 9.17,
"Baltic": 0,
"West_Asian": 0,
"Levant": 0,

"sample": "Test1:DEU_Lech_MBA_-_OTTM_151ind2_d",
"fit": 2.84,
"Beaker_North": 50,
"EEF": 44.17,
"Baltic": 4.17,
"WHG": 1.67,
"West_Asian": 0,
"Levant": 0,

[dududud]

Celtiberians had lower steppe than MBA Lech sample but were loaded in WHG (picked up locally as they moved in):

"sample": "Test1:Iberia_North_IA_-_I3758",
"fit": 3.8798,
"Beaker_North": 49.17,
"EEF": 40.83,
"WHG": 10,
"Baltic": 0,
"West_Asian": 0,
"Levant": 0,

"sample": "Test2:Iberia_North_IA_-_I3759",
"fit": 2.4751,
"Beaker_North": 49.17,
"EEF": 41.67,
"WHG": 9.17,
"Baltic": 0,
"West_Asian": 0,
"Levant": 0,

"sample": "Test1:DEU_Lech_MBA_-_OTTM_151ind2_d",
"fit": 2.84,
"Beaker_North": 50,
"EEF": 44.17,
"Baltic": 4.17,
"WHG": 1.67,
"West_Asian": 0,
"Levant": 0,

Edit.

[Vid Flumina]

If you want compare with me (25%sardinian, 75% Northern France), here my V3 kit:
WA4362305



And my global 25 data:
,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
ThomasL_scaled,0.126344,0.14319,0.044877,-0.001938,0.048624,0.000279,0.00329,0.006231,0.0081 81,0.029522,-0.003573,0.006594,-0.020515,-0.005092,0.004207,-0.014585,-0.010561,0.002407,0.003897,-0.007629,0.000749,-0.001855,-0.002465,0.00482,0.000958

,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25
ThomasL,0.0111,0.0141,0.0119,-0.0006,0.0158,0.0001,0.0014,0.0027,0.004,0.0162,-0.0022,0.0044,-0.0138,-0.0037,0.0031,-0.011,-0.0081,0.0019,0.0031,-0.0061,0.0006,-0.0015,-0.002,0.004,0.0008


See post #16, I used same exact model

[Peterski]

Thanks. All of them are from 1815-1789 BC (page 65 in supp materials).

They are all much higher coverage than even the best of MBA samples.

Only one MBA sample has >30K SNPs in K15, one >20K and one >10K.

Meanwhile all of these are >40K and most are around 100K SNPs in K15.

BTW, are these samples on Global25? Maybe they should become their own average, as all seven of them are pretty similar genetically.

[catgeorge]

Greece still calls France Γαλλία = land of Gauls not sure if they like it though.

Gauls were a Celtic branch, so.

[dududud]

Quick model with custom calc:

https://i.imgur.com/3RP6I4F.png


Apricity member dududud (part Sardinian/part Northern French) seems even closer:

https://i.imgur.com/8Lr27F5.png



As expected:

https://i.imgur.com/UHFq0if.png

Thanks!

Very interesting!

[Peterski]

S. Germany has an eastern shift because of Slavic admixture

Nope. There is no any Slavic admixture in South Germany except Upper Franconia.

This eastern shift is due to Romans or people like those Medieval samples with ACD.

[J. Ketch]

So what of the Hallstatt Bylany samples then? An example of mixing between Basque-like proto-Celts and BB-like Northerners maybe, that would be the racial basis of the Celtic expansion.

[Peterski]

So what of the Hallstatt Bylany samples then? An example of mixing between Basque-like proto-Celts and BB-like Northerners maybe, that would be the racial basis of the Celtic expansion.

You do realize that this whole idea about Basque-like Celts is based on one poor quality sample (and maybe two more but even worse quality samples)? Why are these seven much higher coverage samples from 1800-1750 BCE that XPrussian asked me to upload more northern-shifted?

There is just 300 years difference between these seven AITI samples and that MBA sample.

For comparison, between MBA and Roman soldier FN2 there is over two thousand years.

[Peterski]

Thinking about it, that "Roman" legionary from Germany, FN_2 from ~300-500AD that appeared to be of SW French origins may have even been one of such locals.

Lech_MBA low quality singleton is from 1500 BC, Roman legionary FN2 is from 400 AD.

That is two thousand years of difference.

For comparison AITI samples (labelled as EBA but the youngest of all EBA) are from 1800 BC - just 300 years before MBA sample.

Why did genetic landscape change dramatically during those 300 years but later remained unchanged for the next 2000 years?

[J. Ketch]

You do realize that this whole idea about Basque-like Celts is based on one poor quality sample (and maybe two more but even worse quality samples)? Why are these 7 much higher coverage samples from 1800-1750 BCE that XPrussian asked me to upload much more northern-shifted?
You do realise I don't read posts besides the OP and those that quote me? ;)

If those samples you posted are legit then my question is moot.

[Peterski]

They are legit, but maybe they got invaded and replaced by Basque-like Celts during the next 300 years?

This is a possibility.

Just wondering why they changed from French-South Dutch (with one leaning to Galicia) into Catalan-like?

Or maybe one sample is not enough to judge. After all 1 of 7 samples from 1800 BC was also south-shifted.

[Calpurnius]

Lech_MBA low quality singleton is from 1500 BC, Roman legionary FN2 is from 400 AD.

That is two thousand years of difference.

For comparison AITI samples (labelled as EBA but the youngest of all EBA) are from 1800 BC - just 300 years before MBA sample.

Why did genetic landscape change dramatically during those 300 years but later remained unchanged for the next 2000 years?

it's a far fetched comparison indeed, though at the same time perhaps, after all, the era of large scale movements was coming to an end and the populations were beginning to stabilize in term of genetic profile, kind of like those Roman era samples from Empuries in Spain being almost genetically the same as the Mycenaean Greek samples from ~1300BC
I wouldn't talk of a "dramatic" change either, there's an even further increase in farmer ancestry but that seems about it

[Peterski]

Based on Eurogenes K36 admixtures, seven Lech Valley samples dated to 1800 BC are closest to... average modern Frenchman:

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
1. FR_Average (people with mixed ancestry from various regions of France)
0.4532229
2. FR_Pays-de-la-Loire
0.5981313
3. FR_Grand-Est
0.7445683
4. FR_Auvergne
0.7640537
5. DE_Bavaria
0.8144164
(...)

[Peterski]

K36 Similarity Map for Lech Valley samples dated to 1800-1750 BCE, suggested by XPrussian:

Highest similarity is to Paris (represented here by Frenchmen with regionally mixed ancestry):

https://i.imgur.com/m8BQbSv.png

So most similar to average Frenchman...

[Smaug]

More like Jacques Cousteau, no?

Anyway, interesting information, it seems early Etruscans were also Basque-like. There was a much bigger genetically Basque continuum in Europe in the past.

The Vasconic Substratum Hypothesis.

[Peterski]

Davidski has sent me their coordinates in his Celtic vs Germanic PCA.

Six out of seven Lech 1800-1750 BC samples plot on the "Celtic side":

Only one odd outlier (AITI_50) plots in the area of Orkney Islands? (this AITI_50 is also the lowest coverage of all 7 samples, but still pretty good):

https://i.imgur.com/QDUjuZ8.png

^^^
Opinions?

AITI_50 is the only one that plots to the left, but it is also the one with the lowest coverage (on GEDmatch fewer SNPs than the other six samples).

====

Edit:

Based on K36 this AITI_50 also looks like some Norwegian-Irish/Scottish mix or intermediate.

Was there anything special about this individual and grave, compared to the other six guys?

[Peterski]

New Similarity Map, after removing AITI_50 (the most northern-shifted outlier):

Even more similar to Central French than before, but less similar to Germans:

https://i.imgur.com/q9aw9WV.png

And new closest distances:

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCE%"
1. FR_Average
0.4007181
2. FR_Pays-de-la-Loire
0.5048554
3. FR_Auvergne
0.6060561
4. FR_Rhone-Alpes
0.7618661
5. FR_Occitanie
0.7937298
6. FR_Grand-Est
0.8520775
(...)

[J. Ketch]

Davidski has sent me their coordinates in his Celtic vs Germanic PCA.

Six out of seven Lech 1800-1750 BC samples plot on the "Celtic side":

Only one odd outlier (AITI_50) plots in the area of Orkney Islands? (this AITI_50 is also the lowest coverage of all 7 samples, but still pretty good):

https://i.imgur.com/QDUjuZ8.png

^^^
Opinions?

AITI_50 is the only one that plots to the left, but it is also the one with the lowest coverage (on GEDmatch fewer SNPs than the other six samples).

====

Edit:

Based on K36 this AITI_50 also looks like some Norwegian-Irish/Scottish mix or intermediate.

Was there anything special about this individual and grave, compared to the other six guys?
Is Davidski going to put these on G25?

[TheOldNorth]

But the Hallstatt, La Tène theory is outdated and old, if you want to talk about Celtic ethnogenisis then you need to talk about the Atlantic Bronze Age trading culture and the Bell Beakers

[XenophobicPrussian]

K36 Similarity Map for Lech Valley samples dated to 1800-1750 BCE, suggested by XPrussian:

Highest similarity is to Paris (represented here by Frenchmen with regionally mixed ancestry):

https://i.imgur.com/m8BQbSv.png

So most similar to average Frenchman...


Davidski has sent me their coordinates in his Celtic vs Germanic PCA.

Six out of seven Lech 1800-1750 BC samples plot on the "Celtic side":

Only one odd outlier (AITI_50) plots in the area of Orkney Islands? (this AITI_50 is also the lowest coverage of all 7 samples, but still pretty good):

https://i.imgur.com/QDUjuZ8.png

^^^
Opinions?

AITI_50 is the only one that plots to the left, but it is also the one with the lowest coverage (on GEDmatch fewer SNPs than the other six samples).

====

Edit:

Based on K36 this AITI_50 also looks like some Norwegian-Irish/Scottish mix or intermediate.

Was there anything special about this individual and grave, compared to the other six guys?
My dude, you are putting way too much weight on K36. It focuses on extremely minor modern ethnic group genetic drift(that's why there's so many Ks), and for example Basques and Finns are basically treated like completely different races. It is not useful for ancient samples maybe other than IA+ or medieval+.

New Similarity Map, after removing AITI_50 (the most northern-shifted outlier):

Even more similar to Central French than before, but less similar to Germans:

https://i.imgur.com/q9aw9WV.png
Can you PM me or post here the K15 result of each of these AETI samples? Also the high coverage MBA ones too would be nice. I was gunna get them myself but forgot my GEDMatch account, haven't used it for ancient samples in awhile. I'll plot them on K15 afterwards, will also seperate AETI samples from MBA and seperate AETI 50 as well.

As for if there was anything special about 50, nothing special about him other than he was male, had no relatives in the burial(some did). Apperantly the AETI site was one of the richer sites, and had a trade network ranging from NW Switzerland to Bohemia. They also note contemporary Unetice culture in Bohemia, who they traded with, was much richer, but the wealth was more spread out in the Bavarian sites. Also from the EBA to MBA there was actually a shift in the culture, MBA was much poorer with far fewer grave goods and metal goods than the EBA.

This is pretty cool, one of the burials had a whole family together, and it was one of the higher status families with a lot of valuable grave goods. A mother, AETI 87, and her three sons, 86, 119, 120(also one more I believe based on where he's buried, AETI88, but no genome, not even a gender listed, but also had grave goods), all being some with the most grave goods. What's interesting is, going solely based on the steppe/EEF ratios on page 38 of supp. data, AETI 87 was one of the Iberian ones(one of the most southern shifted of all samples, only AETI95 was more southern shifted), and all of her sons were much more steppe shifted, so much so you would need a paternal part like AETI 50 to get them where they are. So we're pretty much looking at a mixed race family right there, and the mother was most likely a local because her and her sons' mtDNA was U4a1a, which peaks in Germany, Poland, Scandinavia. 119 was only a sub-adult so it's pretty obvious the father was a pretty important figure. Very cool stuff.

Whoever was the husband of AETI_35 was likely the most high status and important person, that was one of the richest graves in the whole region. Potential candiates are 36, 50, 33 based on the closest males buried, but 36 was the only one with high status grave goods out of all of them. I doubt he was buried though, because 48 people were cremated according to the paper while 65 were buried in this site, and given this was still pretty early in post-IE Europe it was most likely the elites being cremated.

As for no Slavic admixture in S. Germans, well they definitely score it according to K36 runner, for whatever that's worth. Even Swiss Germans score around 2% on G25, Austrians are 27-30% Slavic, Tyrolians 6%, not like people in the Alps can't move around. Only West Germans/Dutch/Flemish score no Slavic.

Also, it isn't one lone SW French/Iberian sample, but literally 6 out of 8 of all the latest samples, whether they're low coverage or not. The population didn't change, Iberian-like people were already being buried in the oldest Beaker burials, the caste system/mating patterns and burial patterns did. It's actually very unlikely Iberian-like people could've survived without mixing from the Bell Beaker and even CW period to 1500 BC, just like pure Dutch beakers didn't survive unadmixed to 1500 BC. Some northern shifted samples yes, but not pure Dutch beaker like you have in the earliest Bavarian beakers. You have to remember people actually being buried in organized burials/cemeteries are already some of the more high-status individuals in society, the peasant was thrown into a ditch, bodies not positioned, etc. Early Europe IE societies easily could've been like Indian society with their caste system, extremely genetically different people pretty much living side by side(until it slowly disappears because humans will mix no matter what, or rapidly gets extinguished like in modern India), even as late as when these samples are from. We have no idea if these central French-like samples were the majority of the population, is what I'm saying, and even if they were on average central French with a few more northern and southern outliers, my prediction was even more right because that's what I first called, and it has little to no difference in the implications whether Celts were central French or SW French/Iberian like, point is they aren't British Isles-like and much more southern shifted than modern S. Germans.

[SharpFork]

I've hard time reconciling this theory of Basque-like Celts with the results from Iron Age England, Bohemia or Northern Iberia, it seems to me to be a far-fetched theory, especially considering that even if we don't take a literal approach to the anthropological descriptions made by Greeks and Romans, the Celts definitely appeared different enough to them to at least give basis to exaggeration about their appearance.

[TheForeigner]

This is ironic, since SW Gaul was not Celtic, but populated by pre-IE Aquitanians.

[SharpFork]

This is ironic, since SW Gaul was not Celtic, but populated by pre-IE Aquitanians.
Yeah I'd rather look at it as being a local trend rather than generalize it to all Celts, after all this place was close to the Alps-dwelling Raetians which if they are anything like other relatively close non-IE people like Basques and Etruscans, would have been a good fit to explain those results AFAIK rather than a centuries long caste division.

[TheForeigner]

Yeah I'd rather look at it as being a local trend rather than generalize it to all Celts, after all this place was close to the Alps-dwelling Raetians which if they are anything like other relatively close non-IE people like Basques and Etruscans, would have been a good fit to explain those results AFAIK rather than a centuries long caste division.

I would imagine there was some genetic and phenotypic diversity between the different Celtic populations. I don't think Boii, Britons and Celtiberians were the same.

[SharpFork]

I would imagine there was some genetic and phenotypic diversity between the different Celtic populations. I don't think Boii, Britons and Celtiberians were the same.
Sure but at the same time this theory requires a very huge Germanic input and presumes a very low Roman input which I don't think is warranted. Plus the 2 early Iron Age Hallstatt samples from Bohemia definitely are not Basque like, not even the one from Empuries is.

[Peterski]

This would be ironic if it was true, since SW Gaul was not Celtic, but populated by pre-IE Aquitanians.

^^^ Fixed.

[Ikiru]

I've hard time reconciling this theory of Basque-like Celts with the results from Iron Age England, Bohemia or Northern Iberia, it seems to me to be a far-fetched theory, especially considering that even if we don't take a literal approach to the anthropological descriptions made by Greeks and Romans, the Celts definitely appeared different enough to them to at least give basis to exaggeration about their appearance.

Yes. Strabo (1st century AD) actually wrote that there was a strong difference in how Aquitanians (Basque and SW French people) and Gauls (continental Celts) looked. He even went as far as saying that Aquitanians looked more like Iberians.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=86384&d=1554397424

[TheOldNorth]

I would imagine there was some genetic and phenotypic diversity between the different Celtic populations. I don't think Boii, Britons and Celtiberians were the same.

yeah Boii where likely alpine-esque, britons where north atlantid, gauls where atlantid and sub nordid, and celtiberians where antlo-med with possibly some alpine

[SharpFork]

So is there anything other than those samples from 7 centuries before the Hallstatt expansion that show Basque like potentially Celtic individuals? I can't believe this is enough to build such a theory.