Mainland Greeks Genetically Diverged From Islanders in the Middle Ages

[Annihilus]

Mainland Greeks Genetically Diverged From Islanders in the Middle Ages

Genetic analysis proves that following thousands of years of conquests and migrations, peoples living around the Mediterranean today share common ancestors, with one surprising outlier: Greece

https://images.haarets.co.il/image/fetch/w_857,h_482,q_auto,c_fill,f_auto/fl_any_format.preserve_transparency.progressive:no ne/https://www.haaretz.com/polopoly_fs/1.5710198.1515516608!/image/1018316866.jpg
Santorini, a Greek island, whose people are genetically more similar to southern Italians than to mainland Greeks.

The peoples living today around the Mediterranean Sea are all related, after thousands of years of intermittently attacking and loving each other, a new genetic study has unsurprisingly shown. However, the data from the international team of scientists found a startling exception: mainland Greeks, who seem to be genetically closer to Albanians than to their brethren in the Greek islands.

Wars, population movements led to mixing, with the pot being stirred every time the peoples living around the sea were invaded (or were invaded) by somebody else. Which happened a lot, thanks to from aggressive colonization such as by Greece and Rome in classic history, or passive migration.


One upshot is that the ancient populations around the Mediterranean became increasingly genetically variable, and tracking down any specific group's origin became increasingly difficult.

"Present-day population diversity is composed by multiple genetic layers, which make the deciphering of different ancestral and historical contributes particularly challenging," write the scientists behind a new study, that looked at 23 populations.

Different genes for different Greeks

The scientists did find the expected degree of genetic continuity extending from Sicily to Cyprus.

The scientists were not expecting to find that the people in the Greek islands appear genetically closer to southern Italians than to the people in continental Greece.

Meanwhile, the mainland Greeks, including the Peloponnese in southern Greece, had become slightly differentiated. They clustered with populations from the southern Balkans, including Kosovo and Albania.

skip - The Greek islands
All the tested populations from Southern Italy, Sicily, mainland Greece, and the Greek islands including Cyprus share a genetic component inherited from early Neolithic farmers, say the researchers. They also have a smattering of traits originating in the Levant and Near East.

Why would the mainland Greeks have gained such strong genetic affiliation with the Balkans? Population expansions during the Middle Ages, suggest the scientists, noting the Slavic migrations.

In other words, the mainland Greeks and southern Balkan peoples would at an earlier time also been part of what the team calls the "Mediterranean genetic continuum". But their genetics were augmented with the Slavic component.

In yet other words, if the data interpretation is correct, the Slavic genetic addition to the mainland Greeks was historic, not prehistoric, and so was the genetic divergence between the Greek islanders and the mainland Greeks.

It's Greek to me

Another question that the genetic study addresses is the origin of the modern-day Greek-speaking communities in Southern Italy. Hellenic (Magna Graecia) and Byzantine colonization is one possibility, but the preponderance of historical and linguistic evidence agree that these groups are a remnant of a wider Greek-speaking area. Throughout the area, Greek was widespread before Latin.

Historical and linguistic data suggest that southern Italy has been characterized by "a pervasive multilingualism" at least from antiquity, write the authors, and conclude: "both cultural transmission and genetic admixture may have played an important role in the formative process of these groups since the very beginning.

https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/mainland-island-greeks-genetically-diverged-in-middle-ages-1.5489323

[SharpFork]

So this supports the idea that Turks that are close to Greek Islander actually do have European Greek ancestry.

[Turxanthus]

--------------double post--------------

[Turxanthus]

Greks have never had any concept of race or nobility, they are a bunch brought together by the Orthodox clerical class who lured them with the hope that they will be in heaven in the hereafter, should they follow the teachings of the Church. If you scratch deep in their history, you see a racial tragedy and chaos.

Just to name a few ones; when the Muslim Arabs took Egypt in 640, Byzantine navy ferried up to 50 thousands Coptic Christian Egyptians to Constantinople and around, which had barely 100 thousands population back then. And then the Turks wonder why the Istanbul Rums look like Middle Easterners.
Later, during the 700's, with the Slavonic Pagans invading and expanding towards Macedonia and Thrace; the Byzantine rulers resettled hundreds of thousands of Armenian-like Anatolians and Cypriots to Macedonia region to balance the Slavs. And through next centuries, the Orthodox clerical class worked hard and converted those masses to Hellenic Christianity.
That caused a terrible racial mess. During the late medieval era, no need to name the Albanian and Vlach expansions toward Greece which also caused a population replacement.

It is normal for a people who never had any sort of nobility, blood-based elite or whatsoever. In Byzantium, any Turkic, Norman, Frankish, Rus (Vareg) dweller settling Constantinople, was granted nobility status. Byzantine Empresses were cheating emperors with some military officers, they then got the emperor assassinated and the lover was becoming emperor. Then, in times of anarchy, street gangsters like Mortzouflos in 1204 could also be declared ''emperor of Romans'' (!).

It is nothing like among the nations where nobility is a blood matter and monarchy is passed down from father-to-son like among Turks (old Turks but even Ottomans!), German tribes, Japanese, Anglos, etc.

Showing Greks as the ''main rival of Turks'' is a psychological warfare waged on the Turks, a hidden message given to Turks that they are on par with small people. The Greks are on the same category people as Lebanese, Montenegrins, Latvians etc. No need to take them seriously or so.

And members from Greece knowingly try to spark hot debates with the Turks because when they do so, they feel like they are more important people than what they actually are.

[Jana]

Why would the mainland Greeks have gained such strong genetic affiliation with the Balkans? Population expansions during the Middle Ages, suggest the scientists, noting the Slavic migrations.

In other words, the mainland Greeks and southern Balkan peoples would at an earlier time also been part of what the team calls the "Mediterranean genetic continuum". But their genetics were augmented with the Slavic component.

In yet other words, if the data interpretation is correct, the Slavic genetic addition to the mainland Greeks was historic, not prehistoric, and so was the genetic divergence between the Greek islanders and the mainland Greeks.

Confirms what we already know. Slavic migrations altered genetic make-up of southern Balkans during the medieval times.

[lacreme]

Already posted as a whole at least 2 more times back when it was originally released,in 2017 .
The accompanying PCA countless times since then.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?210722-The-population-genetic-structure-of-Sicily-and-Greece

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?211224-Ancient-and-recent-admixture-layers-in-Sicily-and-Southern-Italy

[contributor]

The author of the article is either very ignorant/biased or the study is messed up


Greek Islands aren't genetically closer to Southern Italy, you can see that from IBD sharing and Haplogroups .Plotting doesn't equal same ancestry.

its like someone from the north with a slight SSA admixture plotting in the Mediteranean. Does this make him S. Italian as well and not 7/8 Swedish and 1/8 African?

[Xz2k9]

The article is like years old and outdated. Lots of factors it doesn't take into consideration.

Mainland Greeks were always more North and different than Islanders regardless of the later Slavic or Albanian migrations.

Slavic migration has affected Greek Macedonia the most out of all areas. Some of them absorbed a huge amount of Slavs that shifted them even more North or as north as some Gheg Albanians which I have personally seen on some PCA Map.

However, manland Greeks are still South of Ghegs as a whole with a branch of Ghegs also shifting more North overlapping with Bulgaria / Macedonia / Romania. There are some Tosk Albanians that end up South of some mainlanders , I say some because a lot of mainlanders cluster South too.

In certain areas people might of absorbed more neolithic like ancestry over time, shifting them more South.... or any other component for that matter which could explain these differences.

The difference between mainlanders and Islanders is not just because of huge Slavic or Albanian influx (which certainly had an impact) but I'd say the difference in many areas is also pre-Slavic.

In the case of Greek Macedonia, lots of Slavs have been absorbed and some of them even shift more North than some Albanians.

[Adamastor]

What they call Mediterranean in the article is basically ''East Mediterranean'' because Iberians, Albanians, Central Italians, North Italians and other more north-shifted groups are also ''Mediterranean''.

But everyone knows that, mainland Greeks have Slavic admixture but it came through Slavic admixed Balkan peoples not directly through proper Slavs from Ukraine, Poland etc.

Also, the OP is basically proving what he doesn't want to be true: if Island Greeks are the closest ones to ''real'' Greeks from antiquity it means Turks have heavy Greek ancestry hahaha.

[Annihilus]

What they call Mediterranean in the article is basically ''East Mediterranean'' because Iberians, Albanians, Central Italians, North Italians and other more north-shifted groups are also ''Mediterranean''.

But everyone knows that, mainland Greeks have Slavic admixture but it came through Slavic admixed Balkan peoples not directly through proper Slavs from Ukraine, Poland etc.

Also, the OP is basically proving what he doesn't want to be true: if Island Greeks are the closest ones to ''real'' Greeks from antiquity it means Turks have heavy Greek ancestry hahaha.

There is no Greek dna in Turkey, they were all killed or kicked out.

[RenaRyuguu]

There is no Greek dna in Turkey, they were all killed or kicked out.

yes we will revive them

[Adamastor]

There is no Greek dna in Turkey, they were all killed or kicked out.

You descend mostly from Greeks, Phrygians, Armenians and other Anatolian peoples. Your Central Asian Mongoloid DNA is basically irrelevant. Some ''Turks'' can be even 0% Mongoloid.

If Turks can identify as Mongoloids being 5-10% mongoloid then these people are black (they are in between 5-10% SSA):

https://i0.wp.com/www.f5noticia.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/Karina-Bacchi-e-Enrico.jpg?fit=662%2C454&ssl=1

[MustafaTekin]

Greks have never had any concept of race or nobility, they are a bunch brought together by the Orthodox clerical class who lured them with the hope that they will be in heaven in the hereafter, should they follow the teachings of the Church. If you scratch deep in their history, you see a racial tragedy and chaos.

Just to name a few ones; when the Muslim Arabs took Egypt in 640, Byzantine navy ferried up to 50 thousands Coptic Christian Egyptians to Constantinople and around, which had barely 100 thousands population back then. And then the Turks wonder why the Istanbul Rums look like Middle Easterners.
Later, during the 700's, with the Slavonic Pagans invading and expanding towards Macedonia and Thrace; the Byzantine rulers resettled hundreds of thousands of Armenian-like Anatolians and Cypriots to Macedonia region to balance the Slavs. And through next centuries, the Orthodox clerical class worked hard and converted those masses to Hellenic Christianity.
That caused a terrible racial mess. During the late medieval era, no need to name the Albanian and Vlach expansions toward Greece which also caused a population replacement.

It is normal for a people who never had any sort of nobility, blood-based elite or whatsoever. In Byzantium, any Turkic, Norman, Frankish, Rus (Vareg) dweller settling Constantinople, was granted nobility status. Byzantine Empresses were cheating emperors with some military officers, they then got the emperor assassinated and the lover was becoming emperor. Then, in times of anarchy, street gangsters like Mortzouflos in 1204 could also be declared ''emperor of Romans'' (!).

It is nothing like among the nations where nobility is a blood matter and monarchy is passed down from father-to-son like among Turks (old Turks but even Ottomans!), German tribes, Japanese, Anglos, etc.

Showing Greks as the ''main rival of Turks'' is a psychological warfare waged on the Turks, a hidden message given to Turks that they are on par with small people. The Greks are on the same category people as Lebanese, Montenegrins, Latvians etc. No need to take them seriously or so.

And members from Greece knowingly try to spark hot debates with the Turks because when they do so, they feel like they are more important people than what they actually are.

there were a few facts that I had to verify, but it appears that your text is historically accurate. excellent piece.

[Turxanthus]

What they call Mediterranean in the article is basically ''East Mediterranean'' because Iberians, Albanians, Central Italians, North Italians and other more north-shifted groups are also ''Mediterranean''.

But everyone knows that, mainland Greeks have Slavic admixture but it came through Slavic admixed Balkan peoples not directly through proper Slavs from Ukraine, Poland etc.

Also, the OP is basically proving what he doesn't want to be true: if Island Greeks are the closest ones to ''real'' Greeks from antiquity it means Turks have heavy Greek ancestry hahaha.

Homeros and Herodotus (latter being Ionian) write themselves that in the Ionian coast, the native folk was assimilated by an elite Hellenic group coming from Crete and around. Ancient Greks disappeared for various reasons. First of all, the Macedonian takeover under Philip and Alexander brought a different, more feodal and nation state-like administration culture in Greece's city state fabric and that altered the nature of those people dramatically. Later, the Roman supremacy and conquest of all the Hellenic world was smashing.
Finally, Christianity has been the last nail in the coffin of those great people of the Antiquity. Over the next millenias and centuries, the mass migrations of Egyptians, Isaurians (Anatolians) and then Slavs, Vlahs, Albanians literally eliminated the Greks as a race.
Sadly, the Orthodox religion started to master and control the language and the "Hellenic identity" started to be shaped and controlled by the Church.

Leonidas, Cassander, Ptolemeos, Antigones and alikes were gone... you started to have Simon, Georgis, Petrus and alikes.. A tragedy.

[catgeorge]

Turks and pan slavists are pretty stupid. Greeks have had bronze age steppe ancestry since time immemorial.

[Voskos]

Debating genetics with a triracial Turkish member is like listening to a prostitute's lecture on morality.

(I am not referring to OP)

[catgeorge]

90% of Greeks don't score Serbia, Croatia, Slovenia with distances < 10

..and we definitely don't get Poland and Ukraine.

Just like Serbs, Croats and Slovenians don't score Greek with distances <10

We share a common ancient ancestry with it going both ways - to put labels on anything more than that just shows how dumb people can be :picard2:

[Leto]

You descend mostly from Greeks, Phrygians, Armenians and other Anatolian peoples. Your Central Asian Mongoloid DNA is basically irrelevant. Some ''Turks'' can be even 0% Mongoloid.

If Turks can identify as Mongoloids being 5-10% mongoloid then these people are black (they are in between 5-10% SSA):

He is mostly European and West Asian (half Balkan Turk, half Anatolian Turk), has an IE haplogroup, yet insists that he is 'Atlaic'. I score a bit more Mongoloid on GEDmatch than that deluded guy (I'm Russian/Belorussian with light hair and blue eyes). Turks cannot be accepted as white because they do tend to be anti-white from what I've seen (they hate Christianity, Greeks, Slavs, Germans, etc.)

[JQP4545]

The Cretan Armenio sample from the Mycenaean period had Slavic affinities...

[Dorian]

Greks have never had any concept of race or nobility, they are a bunch brought together by the Orthodox clerical class who lured them with the hope that they will be in heaven in the hereafter, should they follow the teachings of the Church. If you scratch deep in their history, you see a racial tragedy and chaos.

Just to name a few ones; when the Muslim Arabs took Egypt in 640, Byzantine navy ferried up to 50 thousands Coptic Christian Egyptians to Constantinople and around, which had barely 100 thousands population back then. And then the Turks wonder why the Istanbul Rums look like Middle Easterners.
Later, during the 700's, with the Slavonic Pagans invading and expanding towards Macedonia and Thrace; the Byzantine rulers resettled hundreds of thousands of Armenian-like Anatolians and Cypriots to Macedonia region to balance the Slavs. And through next centuries, the Orthodox clerical class worked hard and converted those masses to Hellenic Christianity.
That caused a terrible racial mess. During the late medieval era, no need to name the Albanian and Vlach expansions toward Greece which also caused a population replacement.

It is normal for a people who never had any sort of nobility, blood-based elite or whatsoever. In Byzantium, any Turkic, Norman, Frankish, Rus (Vareg) dweller settling Constantinople, was granted nobility status. Byzantine Empresses were cheating emperors with some military officers, they then got the emperor assassinated and the lover was becoming emperor. Then, in times of anarchy, street gangsters like Mortzouflos in 1204 could also be declared ''emperor of Romans'' (!).

It is nothing like among the nations where nobility is a blood matter and monarchy is passed down from father-to-son like among Turks (old Turks but even Ottomans!), German tribes, Japanese, Anglos, etc.

Showing Greks as the ''main rival of Turks'' is a psychological warfare waged on the Turks, a hidden message given to Turks that they are on par with small people. The Greks are on the same category people as Lebanese, Montenegrins, Latvians etc. No need to take them seriously or so.

And members from Greece knowingly try to spark hot debates with the Turks because when they do so, they feel like they are more important people than what they actually are.

When you need to write all this to show the fucks you don't give cause you're above that... :rofl_002:

[Peterski]

Confirms what we already know. Slavic migrations altered genetic make-up of southern Balkans during the medieval times.

But East Germans are way more Slavic than Greeks.