any DNA results from Budjak ?

[Jana]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budjak

in yellow

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/Ukraine-Budzhak.png

Can be either from ethnic Ukrainians, Bulgarians, Russians, Moldovans/Romanians or Gagauz. I'm curious about this region genetic make-up.

[WeirdLookingFellow]

Just Gagauz, they were posted by vbnethkio and added to his K15 PCA. They plot like Bulgarians, some have higher Baltic (28-30) but due to higher West Asian and East Med do not plot like Serbs but like slightly more EE Bulgarians.

[Aspirin]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budjak

in yellow

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/Ukraine-Budzhak.png

Can be either from ethnic Ukrainians, Bulgarians, Russians, Moldovans/Romanians or Gagauz. I'm curious about this region genetic make-up.

That region is mixed af. Is hard to see who is who from genetic results. Plus 1/4 of Budjak is part of today Republic of Moldova, where lives mostly Gagauz and Bulgarians. Here was posted a person from that region.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?293803-Some-23andme-results-of-Moldavians-from-R-Moldova&p=6114205&viewfull=1#post6114205

[vbnetkhio]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budjak

in yellow

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/Ukraine-Budzhak.png

Can be either from ethnic Ukrainians, Bulgarians, Russians, Moldovans/Romanians or Gagauz. I'm curious about this region genetic make-up.


Just Gagauz, they were posted by vbnethkio and added to his K15 PCA. They plot like Bulgarians, some have higher Baltic (28-30) but due to higher West Asian and East Med do not plot like Serbs but like slightly more EE Bulgarians.

yeah, Gagauz overlap with the eastern half of Bulgarians. If i understand it rigth, they are just Bulgarians who switched to another language. and then later migrated from Bulgaria northwards into Budjak.

Eastern Romanians/Moldovans range from being the same as east Bulgarians/Gagauz to being pulled towards Ukrainians in various degrees.

and small amounts of Gypsy and Asiatic admixtures are also common in this region i believe.

[WeirdLookingFellow]

yeah, Gagauz overlap with the eastern half of Bulgarians. If i understand it rigth, they are just Bulgarians who switched to another language. and then later migrated from Bulgaria northwards into Budjak.

Eastern Romanians/Moldovans range from being the same as east Bulgarians/Gagauz to being pulled towards Ukrainians in various degrees.

and small amounts of Gypsy and Asiatic admixtures are also common in this region i believe.

I've checked all the Romanian and Moldavian samples that you posted. One was clearly some sort of Moldavian-Russian-Gypsy. 2 Romanian samples had South Asian of over 3% if I remember well. Not very good for measuring yourself to the pop average, seeing that based on the K13 spreadsheet the European average is around 0.9%, therefore anything really over 1.5% is too much to be ignored by some calculators or even G25.

[Seya]

Hmmm they probably have specific results for each ethnicity or a mix of all, depending on the individual. My grandfather made his military service there in Ismail.

[Aspirin]

Eastern Romanians/Moldovans range from being the same as east Bulgarians/Gagauz to being pulled towards Ukrainians in various degrees.

and small amounts of Gypsy and Asiatic admixtures are also common in this region i believe.

Fits well your wish to solve "Moldavian genetic mystery".

[Zmey Gorynych]

Budjak should be very mixed. You have 3 sizable ethnicities + 2 other living on a surface of roughly 13.000 square km.


Fits well your wish to solve "Moldavian genetic mystery".
It could be a case of having a hard time accepting that some vlachs are a bit more north-eastern than some slavs. Have you tested yet?

[vbnetkhio]

It could be a case of having a hard time accepting that some vlachs are a bit more north-eastern than some slavs.

what :icon_lol: is that directed at me?

[Zmey Gorynych]

what :icon_lol: is that directed at me?
Yes, you're included.

[Jana]

The landscapes look very steppic, quite exotic for me. This kind of places are interesting.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Viehherde_Bessarabien.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Kloestitz_Dorfansicht_Haller_Steppe_f_Sept_2005.JP G

And in such regions population continuity is a rare occurence.

[vbnetkhio]

Yes, you're included.

i just stated some Moldavians are clearly pulled towards the Ukrainian cluster on a PCA. why would i have a hard time accepting that

[Jana]

Budjak should be very mixed. You have 3 sizable ethnicities + 2 other living on a surface of roughly 13.000 square km.

It could be a case of having a hard time accepting that some vlachs are a bit more north-eastern than some slavs. Have you tested yet?

Well, linguistics doesn't always fits to genetics. Vlach plotting NE from Slav is most likely more Slavic genetically than the Slavic speaker.

[Zmey Gorynych]

i just stated some Moldavians are clearly pulled towards the Ukrainian cluster on a PCA. why would i have a hard time accepting that
Judging by your posting history your opinion seems to be that those (moldavians) that plot with other romanians, bulgarians and gagauz are real moldavians-vlachs. While those that do not (north-east of ro-bul-gz), and I don't mean the ukrainian, belarussian fellows which are obviously foreign but those around the moldavian average (be it skewed as it was made from a handful of samples, including the ukr-bel samples) must have ukrainian and russian ancestry.

As to the gypsy and asian admixture. Moldova has less gypsies that any balkan country (except maybe Croatia), and I'm speaking of proportions(%) not absolute numbers thus the posibility of such admixture in ethnic moldovans (and not only) is less likely. Romania has plenty of gypsies but the eastern part of the country has the least of all three historical regions. Asian (I guess tatar) is a possibility and reality in Doruja which is not part of the moldavian region of Romania. Moldova has no tatars.

If I'm wrong, I retract the above.


The landscapes look very steppic, quite exotic for me. This kind of places are interesting.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Viehherde_Bessarabien.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Kloestitz_Dorfansicht_Haller_Steppe_f_Sept_2005.JP G

And in such regions population continuity is a rare occurence.
I've been there. While it may look interesting. I find immense open spaces slightly disconcerting and like you said exotic. I need a bit of hill in my field of vision.


Well, linguistics doesn't always fits to genetics. Vlach plotting NE from Slav is most likely more Slavic genetically than the Slavic speaker.
I'm not excluding the possibility of slavic genes but in most cases moldovans have them from olden times (probably predating the formation of their medieval state).

[Aspirin]

The landscapes look very steppic, quite exotic for me. This kind of places are interesting.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Viehherde_Bessarabien.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Kloestitz_Dorfansicht_Haller_Steppe_f_Sept_2005.JP G

And in such regions population continuity is a rare occurence.

Budjak is totally flat steppe region, who historically was very low populated till recent time. Moldavians never settled here even in the time when Budjak was integral part of Moldova (late XIV - early XVI century). The only Moldavians presence here was near Prut river and near the coastline of Black Sea. Akkerman Fortress builded in the first half of XVth century is the biggest monument of Moldavian presence in that region who survived till today. Except the period then he was a part of Moldova, rest of the time till late XVIIIth century, Budjak was populated only by steppe-nomad populations (Scythians, Sarmatians, Huns, Pechenegs, Cumans, Mongols and Tatars).

[Aspirin]

i just stated some Moldavians are clearly pulled towards the Ukrainian cluster on a PCA. why would i have a hard time accepting that

You can post more Jews and Gagauz to fit more your agenda.

[PAGANE]

Yes, Budjak is interesting. With regard to Bulgarians and Gagauz, the beginning of a significant Bulgarian presence in the region was set in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. Thus, during the Russo-Turkish War of 1768 - 1774, especially with the withdrawal of Russian troops, several thousand Bulgarians emigrated to Wallachia, Moldova and Ukraine. The largest mass settlement of Bulgarians in Budzhak, where the major part of Bessarabian Bulgarians is concentrated today, began during the Russo-Turkish War from 1806 to 1812. Immediately before it, the Russian government evicted the local Tatars with the intention of strengthening its border, settling a Christian population there. Initially, the settlers were mainly Romanians, but with the transfer of hostilities in the Balkans in 1809 and the withdrawal of Russians from Dobrudzha and northeastern Bulgaria in the following year, several thousand Bulgarians moved to the area. In the period 1828-1830 alone, about 150,000 thousand Bulgarians moved there (according to Russian documents). Up until 20-30 years ago, ethnic groups lived compactly in their communities and did not mix with others, so their results would be pure

[vbnetkhio]

Judging by your posting history your opinion seems to be that those (moldavians) that plot with other romanians, bulgarians and gagauz are real moldavians-vlachs. While those that do not (north-east of ro-bul-gz), and I don't mean the ukrainian, belarussian fellows which are obviously foreign but those around the moldavian average (be it skewed as it was made from a handful of samples, including the ukr-bel samples) must have ukrainian and russian ancestry.

As to the gypsy and asian admixture. Moldova has less gypsies that any balkan country (except maybe Croatia), and I'm speaking of proportions(%) not absolute numbers thus the posibility of such admixture in ethnic moldovans (and not only) is less likely. Romania has plenty of gypsies but the eastern part of the country has the least of all three historical regions. Asian (I guess tatar) is a possibility and reality in Doruja which is not part of the moldavian region of Romania. Moldova has no tatars.

If I'm wrong, I retract the above.

i'm not calling them "the only real Moldovans", who am i to decide who's a Moldovan. im calling them autosomally closer to the first Romanian speakers who arrived to Moldova.

on a pca there is a difference between being pulled towards west Slavs, east Slavs or early medieval protoSlavs. i'm not randomly calling Moldovans Ukrainian admixed.

yes i'm basing this opinion on that handful of samples and results i have. i'm collecting new gedmatch kits all the time. when i get a proper sample i'll change my opinion too.


You can post more Jews and Gagauz to fit more your agenda.

there's no agenda. i'm genuinely interested in your genetics.
i looked for long for those academic samples , i found them and uploaded them because of this.

[Zmey Gorynych]

on a pca there is a difference between being pulled towards west Slavs, east Slavs or early medieval protoSlavs. i'm not randomly calling Moldovans Ukrainian admixed
What is the difference between being pulled towards modern slavs and medieval proto-slavs? I'm genuinely interested.

[PAGANE]

Gagauz from Budzhak
92026920279202892029920309203192032https://scontent-otp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/71393573_2236386806471403_8382339241828417536_o.jp g?_nc_cat=110&_nc_oc=AQmyZ71ZuhUdeR0Tj-c0MaaIektaqrnakqTn2aR6LWLEfkxC_UyshxirpGXHwgPAn4A&_nc_ht=scontent-otp1-1.xx&oh=48aca98405e675c8ad34ae11bb17fbdc&oe=5E1C6BC8
https://scontent-otp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/64862802_2066877626755656_6754908964380475392_o.jp g?_nc_cat=111&_nc_oc=AQlde7YfQPFfr-PnSpVHuuV96ef9UYmZKy9OEA1pDSxnrGE49L0uj0OYa9Jj6MqB 5e4&_nc_ht=scontent-otp1-1.xx&oh=abdaf90533c382ef8ddad57c6cffab16&oe=5E632765

[PAGANE]

Гагауз от Буджак
http://gagauzinfo.md/uploads/posts/2019-08/1566140885_img_5824.jpg
http://gagauzinfo.md/uploads/posts/2019-10/1571411933_ormanji_v_4.jpg
http://gagauzinfo.md/uploads/posts/2019-10/1570196744_3.jpg
http://gagauzinfo.md/uploads/posts/2019-10/1571597036_palik-georgiy.jpg
http://gagauzinfo.md/uploads/posts/2019-10/1571604189_oleg_garizan_4.jpg
http://gagauzinfo.md/uploads/posts/2019-10/1571603654_capsamun_v_1.jpg
http://gagauzinfo.md/uploads/posts/2019-10/1571602403_dudoglo-nikolay.jpg

[vbnetkhio]

What is the difference between being pulled towards modern slavs and medieval proto-slavs? I'm genuinely interested.

on PCAs the av2 "Avar" Slavic woman plots in west Belarus, eastern Poland. av1 and sunghir6, the early medieval Russian, are a bit admixed, but also in that zone.
all other Slavic groups plot somewhere else of course.

the direction of the Moldavian cluster seems to be pulled towards the northernmost Moldavian sample, which plots in the center of Ukrainian cluster. i'm not counting that Moldavian further north, he is probably half Latvian.

https://i.imgur.com/aNxxAeD.png

[vbnetkhio]

...

and those Moldavians that cluster southwest of the Moldavian average point are from the Moldova region in Romania.

[Zmey Gorynych]

on PCAs the av2 "Avar" Slavic woman plots in west Belarus, eastern Poland. av1 and sunghir6, the early medieval Russian, are a bit admixed, but also in that zone.
all other Slavic groups plot somewhere else of course.

the direction of the Moldavian cluster seems to be pulled towards the northernmost Moldavian sample, which plots in the center of Ukrainian cluster. i'm not counting that Moldavian further north, he is probably half Latvian.

https://i.imgur.com/aNxxAeD.png
I can't verify what you're saying and I'm not sure the most southern moldovan academic samples are actually moldovan but I'll try this exercise. My take is that It all depends on what is your starting and ending point. The one in the center of the ukrainian cluster I think is safe to say is not moldavian. The one at the bottom of the line you've drawn is the one you found on youtube(?), not even academic but neither is my result so I'll included. I will exclude only the ukrainian sample. If we are to look at my line it seems that the moldovan line(cluster) is pulled towards that imaginary medieval slavic cluster (between polish and belarussian), it also incompasses more republic of moldova samples (even the most eastern one?) and it also "touches" (as in is closer to) on the romanian moldovan samples.

one square - moldavian samples, 2 squares - romanian moldovan samples
https://i.imgur.com/3nu8mDl.png

If one would want, one could draw a line showing that the so called moldovan cluster is pulling towards the polish cluster. All a matter of what you want to "prove".

[vbnetkhio]

I can't verify what you're saying and I'm not sure the most southern moldovan academic samples are actually moldovan but I'll try this exercise. My take is that It all depends on what is your starting and ending point. The one in the center of the ukrainian cluster I think is safe to say is not moldavian. The one at the bottom of the line you've drawn is the one you found on youtube(?), not even academic but neither is my result so I'll included. I will exclude only the ukrainian sample. If we are to look at my line it seems that the moldovan line(cluster) is pulled towards that imaginary medieval slavic cluster (between polish and belarussian), it also incompasses more republic of moldova samples (even the most eastern one?) and it also "touches" (as in is closer to) on the romanian moldovan samples.

one square - moldavian samples, 2 squares - romanian moldovan samples
https://i.imgur.com/3nu8mDl.png

If one would want, one could draw a line showing that the so called moldovan cluster is pulling towards the polish cluster. All a matter of what you want to "prove".

yes, you are right. it's possible. perhaps that cluster of people southwest the Moldavian average (it's not some carefully calcualted average, just using it for orientation) is the main Moldavian cluster where 90% Moldavians will plot when i get a bigger sample, those south of it are mixed with Gagauz and Bulgarians, those north of it with Ukrainians and they don't represent a big part of Moldavians.

but then again Weirdlookingfellow lies on the East Bulgarian - French/West German line, meaning that the Moldavian part of his ancestors plotted like east Bulgarians. and Nurzat who is half Moldavian half Ukrainian if i remember right, plots in the middle of that Moldavian-Ukrainian line i drew, so his Moldavian ancestry was probably like that Moldavian i took as the most southern one. but they might also have some additional southern ancestries they don't know about which are pulling them down.

btw those Ukrainians which plot all over the place are academic kits, which were used to model the "Baltic" admixture in eurogenes k15 so they get weird results. but i put them anyway to se where they'll plot.
here are just the non-academic Ukrainians, before i added the academic kits:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?299002-South-Slavic-amp-neighbours-Eurogenes-results&p=6235663&viewfull=1#post6235663
that's probably a better representation of the Ukrainian cluster.