Ancient Rome: A genetic crossroads of Europe and the Mediterranean

[Imperator Biff]

Close to Northwestern Italians.

And even if more distant of the other N.Italians they are still pretty damn close
Clearly lol

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 43.23
2 West_Med 32.81
3 Baltic 14.31
4 East_Med 8.03
5 Red_Sea 1.32


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Southwest_French @ 3.048401
2 Spanish_Cantabria @ 5.691567
3 Spanish_Aragon @ 8.074611
4 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 8.797188
5 Spanish_Cataluna @ 9.635151
6 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 9.821689
7 Spanish_Valencia @ 9.900774
8 Spanish_Galicia @ 10.188775
9 Spanish_Andalucia @ 11.025000
10 Spanish_Murcia @ 11.501268
11 Portuguese @ 11.629450
12 Spanish_Extremadura @ 11.653676
13 French_Basque @ 13.827255
14 French @ 14.777138
15 North_Italian @ 19.193899
16 South_Dutch @ 19.767099
17 West_German @ 20.896027
18 Southwest_English @ 22.409290
19 Southeast_English @ 22.750935
20 Orcadian @ 25.098141

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Southwest_French +50% Southwest_French @ 3.048401


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% French_Basque +25% North_Swedish +25% Sardinian @ 2.418283


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 French_Basque + French_Basque + North_Swedish + Sardinian @ 2.418283
2 French_Basque + French_Basque + Sardinian + Southwest_Finnish @ 2.455684
3 French_Basque + Sardinian + Southwest_French + Swedish @ 2.927984
4 French_Basque + Norwegian + Sardinian + Southwest_French @ 2.930984
5 Southwest_French + Southwest_French + Southwest_French + Southwest_French @ 3.048401
6 French_Basque + North_Dutch + Sardinian + Southwest_French @ 3.420983
7 French_Basque + Southwest_French + Southwest_French + Southwest_French @ 3.490510
8 Danish + French_Basque + Sardinian + Southwest_French @ 3.517415
9 French_Basque + North_Swedish + Sardinian + Southwest_French @ 3.522687
10 French_Basque + Sardinian + Spanish_Cantabria + Swedish @ 3.524851
11 French_Basque + Norwegian + Sardinian + Spanish_Cantabria @ 3.562837
12 French_Basque + Orcadian + Sardinian + Southwest_French @ 3.597030
13 Southwest_French + Southwest_French + Southwest_French + Spanish_Cantabria @ 3.608457
14 French_Basque + French_Basque + Sardinian + Swedish @ 3.638027
15 French_Basque + Irish + Sardinian + Southwest_French @ 3.675311
16 French_Basque + Sardinian + Southwest_French + West_Scottish @ 3.710220
17 French_Basque + North_Swedish + Sardinian + Spanish_Aragon @ 3.789819
18 Finnish + French_Basque + French_Basque + Sardinian @ 3.805453
19 French_Basque + Sardinian + Spanish_Aragon + Swedish @ 3.817123
20 French_Basque + North_Swedish + Sardinian + Spanish_Cantabria @ 3.888082

Done.

[Samnium]

Clearly lol

Admix Results (sorted):

#PopulationPercent
1North_Atlantic43.23
2West_Med32.81
3Baltic14.31
4East_Med8.03
5Red_Sea1.32


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Southwest_French @ 3.048401
2 Spanish_Cantabria @ 5.691567
3 Spanish_Aragon @ 8.074611
4 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 8.797188
5 Spanish_Cataluna @ 9.635151
6 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 9.821689
7 Spanish_Valencia @ 9.900774
8 Spanish_Galicia @ 10.188775
9 Spanish_Andalucia @ 11.025000
10 Spanish_Murcia @ 11.501268
11 Portuguese @ 11.629450
12 Spanish_Extremadura @ 11.653676
13 French_Basque @ 13.827255
14 French @ 14.777138
15 North_Italian @ 19.193899
16 South_Dutch @ 19.767099
17 West_German @ 20.896027
18 Southwest_English @ 22.409290
19 Southeast_English @ 22.750935
20 Orcadian @ 25.098141

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Southwest_French +50% Southwest_French @ 3.048401


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% French_Basque +25% North_Swedish +25% Sardinian @ 2.418283


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 French_Basque + French_Basque + North_Swedish + Sardinian @ 2.418283
2 French_Basque + French_Basque + Sardinian + Southwest_Finnish @ 2.455684
3 French_Basque + Sardinian + Southwest_French + Swedish @ 2.927984
4 French_Basque + Norwegian + Sardinian + Southwest_French @ 2.930984
5 Southwest_French + Southwest_French + Southwest_French + Southwest_French @ 3.048401
6 French_Basque + North_Dutch + Sardinian + Southwest_French @ 3.420983
7 French_Basque + Southwest_French + Southwest_French + Southwest_French @ 3.490510
8 Danish + French_Basque + Sardinian + Southwest_French @ 3.517415
9 French_Basque + North_Swedish + Sardinian + Southwest_French @ 3.522687
10 French_Basque + Sardinian + Spanish_Cantabria + Swedish @ 3.524851
11 French_Basque + Norwegian + Sardinian + Spanish_Cantabria @ 3.562837
12 French_Basque + Orcadian + Sardinian + Southwest_French @ 3.597030
13 Southwest_French + Southwest_French + Southwest_French + Spanish_Cantabria @ 3.608457
14 French_Basque + French_Basque + Sardinian + Swedish @ 3.638027
15 French_Basque + Irish + Sardinian + Southwest_French @ 3.675311
16 French_Basque + Sardinian + Southwest_French + West_Scottish @ 3.710220
17 French_Basque + North_Swedish + Sardinian + Spanish_Aragon @ 3.789819
18 Finnish + French_Basque + French_Basque + Sardinian @ 3.805453
19 French_Basque + Sardinian + Spanish_Aragon + Swedish @ 3.817123
20 French_Basque + North_Swedish + Sardinian + Spanish_Cantabria @ 3.888082

Done.Where have you found this ? The study shows that Republican era samples are in an area where Iberians, N.Italians and Portuguese plot. There is even a Tuscan-like individual.

They had already Iran_N ABSENT in Iberians.

[vbnetkhio]

We don't have an exclusively Etruscan study yet but I still bet they would be kinda shifted to Iberia. Like modern North Italians and probably ancient Northern Balkanites.

Etruscans and ancient north Balkanians are indeed like that. but also a bit more Sardinian shifted than modern Iberians and N Italians. you can see Etruscans on the PCA i posted on page 1 of this thread

[Imperator Biff]

Where you have found this ? The study show that Republican era samples are in a area where Iberians, N.Italians and Portuguese plot. There is even a Tuscan-like individual.

They had already Iran_N ABSENT in Iberians.

Iran_N is present in contemporary Iberians with the exception of basques, although not as heavy as it is in contemporary Italians. Before the Romans took over Iberia it was nonexistent there, which should tell you something.

[Dick]

So the Republican Romans were like Iberian Bell beakers?

[Imperator Biff]

So the Republican Romans were like Iberian Bell beakers?

Yes, give or take some kura araxian related stuff.

[Calpurnius]

So the Republican Romans were like Iberian Bell beakers?
Probably something like iron age Iberia but mostly with less WHG I think and perhaps something else, especially in the most southern ones and the iron age Croatian-like one. This picture though a bit confusing should clear things up.
https://i.imgur.com/CzMy0rF.jpg

[Dick]

Yes, give or take some kura araxian related stuff.

This explains their thirst for conquest then.

[Lousianaboy]

Is there roman blood in germans ?

[Peterski]

Yup, even a Roman soldier from Germany plotted way closer to Iberians than padanians.

Some here were claiming that he was a Celt. :p

But wasn't that soldier from Late Imperial era?

[Samnium]

Some here were claiming that he was a Celt. [emoji14]

But wasn't that soldier from Late Imperial era?This study has shown that Republican roman era woud have plotted very close to NW Italians, Iberians and Portuguese.

He has shown a southwest-french like roman, I really doubt that republican Romans were so northern, impossible.

Envoyé de mon ALE-L21 en utilisant Tapatalk

[catgeorge]

Ok so we can gather they were big dick swinging Dorians that plagiarized Ares and transformed him into Mars j/k

[Peterski]

Map of Germanic Y-DNA in Italy made by Passa from Anthrogenica, indicates 3% to 9% in Lazio:

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8045-Map-of-Germanic-Y-DNA-in-Italy-by-Passa

https://i.imgur.com/ROzdhPu.jpg

Two-way mixture models for individuals from 300-700 AD, Table S24:

Germany_Late_Roman was that Roman soldier FN_2 who resembled genetically Republican Era Romans, or maybe Celtiberians:

https://i.imgur.com/E1mUqeq.png

^^^ So Romans from ca. 300-700 AD can be modelled as 60% Romans from 0-300 AD + 40% Roman soldiers similar to FN_2:

https://i.imgur.com/5CRjgFA.png

https://i.imgur.com/vTAqTbl.png

Table S23, F4 stats: https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/suppl/2019/11/06/366.6466.708.DC1/aay6826_Antonio_SM.pdf

[L3mon J3lly]

Study says the original Romans were descendants of people who migrated south from Austria and Germany.

[Jana]

Study says the original Romans were descendants of people who migrated south from Austria and Germany.

Bell Beakers came to south-western Europe from north.

[Kamal900]

Bell Beakers came to south-western Europe from north.

I got this from Anthrogenica:
https://dcalderon.shinyapps.io/shiny_rome/_w_c9f650e1/summary_mini.gif

So..the shift to the middle east isn't so ancient afterall.

[Token]

Map of Germanic Y-DNA in Italy made by Passa from Anthrogenica, indicates 3% to 9% in Lazio:

The fits are horrible compared to their Germanic models and you don't need a lot of Germanic Y-DNA to account for 18% Germanic admixture.

[Peterski]

Roman soldier FN_2 from Monachium dated to ca. 300-500 CE plots in the PCA just like Republican Romans several centuries before him.

Or is it just my impression?

Another question - why didn't the authors in Table S24 include more mixture models with fully ancient sources? Only one ancient model.

[Token]

Germanic models. Much better fits and more historically feasible.

https://i.imgur.com/TuhmtdJ.jpg

[Peterski]

Germanic models. Much better fits and more historically feasible.

These models are for 700-1800 CE individuals, not for 300-700 CE individuals.

Is there a reason why they didn't try these models with 300-700 CE samples?

=====

Also this model does not include Germanic populations but Pre-Saxon British:

https://i.imgur.com/rsIS8Zo.png

[Token]

These models are for 700-1800 CE individuals, not for 300-700 CE individuals.

Is there a reason why they didn't try these models with 300-700 CE samples?

My bad. Actually, the model i posted uses the 300-700 CE samples as one of the sources. So it seems the Medieval shift was also very substantial, even if it turns out that the Late Antiquity shift was caused by repopulation from within Italy.

[Peterski]

My bad. Actually, the model i posted uses the 300-700 CE samples as one of the sources. So it seems the Medieval shift was also very substantial, even if it turns out that the Late Antiquity shift was caused by repopulation from within Italy.

Yes, but Medieval shift could be caused by migration from North Italy to Central Italy.

Not necessarily by migration directly from areas north of the Alps to Central Italy.

====

I mean, what barbarian groups came to Italy after 700 CE and as late as 1800 CE?

[Samnium]

Yes, but Medieval shift could be caused by migration from North Italy to Central Italy.

Not necessarily by migration directly from areas north of the Alps to Central Italy.

====

I mean, what barbarian groups came to Italy after 700 CE and as late as 1800 CE?

It's not impossible because Rome has always gathered different italians from other regions. Now it's southerners but in the past they were predominantly Northern Italians.

[Token]

Yes, but Medieval shift could be caused by migration from North Italy to Central Italy.

Not necessarily by migration directly from areas north of the Alps to Central Italy.

====

I mean, what barbarian groups came to Italy after 700 CE and as late as 1800 CE?

You'd need a heck of a lot of North Italian to account for 20% Frisian-like admixture :laugh:
Rome was part of the Holy Roman Empire and the spiritual center of Europe at the time.

[J. Ketch]

A refresher of what people were saying when rumours of this paper came out in February...

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?277159-Ancient-Roman-samples-coming-soon!

tl;dr a lot of know it all experts claiming Romans were always East Med/Greeks and only huge Germanic influence shifted them to where they currently are (despite Germanic y-dna being insignifcant).

[Token]

A refresher of what people were saying when rumours of this paper came out in February...

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?277159-Ancient-Roman-samples-coming-soon!

tl;dr a lot of know it all experts claiming Romans were always East Med/Greeks and only huge Germanic influence shifted them to where they currently are (despite Germanic y-dna being insignifcant).

But that is exactly what the paper is claiming.

[Peterski]

But that is exactly what the paper is claiming.

No the paper shows that original Romans from 753 BC to 27 BC were very northwest-shifted. Nothing East Med about them. Also no Germanic populations are used in mixture models for Imperial to 300-700 AD transition (Table S24). Germanic admixture appears only after 700 AD (Table S26).

[Token]

No the paper shows that original Romans from 753 BC to 27 BC were very northwest-shifted. Nothing East Med about them. Also no Germanic populations are used in mixture models for Imperial to 300-700 AD transition (Table S24). Germanic admixture appears only after 700 AD (Table S26).

Another one who haven't read the paper. The authors actually state as clear as day that they believe the northwest shift was caused by Germanic and especially Lombardic migrations, and nowhere in the thread Creoda quoted i've said that early Romans were a East Mediterranean population, quite to the contrary.

As i already said, the fits for Late Antiquity Romans with North Italians and FN2 are extremely bad. These models are basically useless.

[Peterski]

They should have checked a model assuming the resurgence of local (pre-Imperial) population:

Target: Rome_LA [300-700 AD]

Source 1: Rome_IR [0-300 AD]
Source 2: Rome_IA [900-0 BC]

Not sure why they didn't do this. Just like they didn't check any Germanic models for Rome_LA.

High P value indicates that a model is good / probable.

If there was no resurgence they would get low P value.

[Token]

They should have checked a model assuming the resurgence of local (pre-Imperial) population:

Target: Rome_LA [300-700 AD]

Source 1: Rome_IR [0-300 AD]
Source 2: Rome_IA [900-0 BC]

Not sure why they didn't do this. Just like they didn't check any Germanic models for Rome_LA.

High P value indicates that a model is good/probable.

No problems, you will be able to check it by yourself in one day or so.

[Peterski]

^^^
There will be another study with ancient DNA from different periods from various regions of Italy, not just from Lazio.

Do you know when is this study going to be published? After this study there will be more options to use in models.

[Token]

^^^
There will be another study with ancient DNA from different periods from various regions of Italy, not just from Lazio.

Do you know when is this study going to be published? After this study there will be more options to use in models.

Probably very soon since Hannah's paper already cites this study if i remember correctly (i only have access to the paper inside the University).

[Samnium]

Probably very soon since Hannah's paper already cites this study if i remember correctly (i only have access to the paper inside the University).

What regions are sampled ?

[Token]

What regions are sampled ?
...

[Samnium]

...

No I'm talking about the study that Peterksi said that will include not only Lazio

[Token]

No I'm talking about the study that Peterksi said that will include not only Lazio
I remember this one was posted somewhere on Anthrogenica.

[Voskos]

I only see around 10 individuals with Greek and/or Cypriot ancestry based on the haplotype sharing figure, mostly dated Imperial Era ,Late antiquity , medieval.
Out of a total of 60 (iirc) samples for the three eras that's around 17%. Not much, but still significant especially if we take into account the fact that the samples aren't even from Magna Graecia.

[Dna8]

Interesting reading your posts guys.

It's compelling how many half tones and speculations remain.

I am regarding you kindly from a respectful distance and I am going to offer you a cigarette,

Dna8

[Peterski]

During upheavals etc. cities suffer more than countryside.

Here is example from two regions of Poland during the "Deluge" (disastrous wars of 1648-1667):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_(history)

Population change of these two regions is estimated as:

In years 1578-1580:

Rural population (non-Jewish) - 1,676,000
Non-Jewish urban population - 650,200
Jewish (all urban population) - 26,500

In years 1662-1676:

Rural population (non-Jewish) - 1,531,600
Non-Jewish urban population - 308,200
Jewish (all urban population) - 43,500

Summary of the decline:

Non-Jewish urban population changed from 650 thousand to 300 thousand (decline by 54%).

Non-Jewish rural population changed from 1676 thousand to 1532 thousand (decline by 9%).

Urban population suffered much more than rural.

Jewish (vast majority urban) population increased, but mainly due to their super high natural growth rates (which is already known from Ashkenazi genetics).

SOURCES (two books):

Bogucka, Samsonowicz, "Dzieje miast i mieszczaństwa w Polsce" [History of cities in Poland]
Schiper, Tartakower, Hafftka, "Żydzi w Polsce Odrodzonej" [Jews in the Reborn Poland]

=====

Edit:

IIRC, in the Olalde 2019 study the authors claimed Iberia has almost no Germanic admixture after modelling Visigoths with use of very "northern" Pre-Roman samples as a source (while samples from times of the Roman rule in Iberia were no longer as northern-shifted as those Pre-Roman, due to admixtures from the east).

And that made no sense, because Celtiberian genetics got altered during Roman period. The authors used a biased model to prove lack of Germanic DNA.

Here the authors have the opposite agenda - and are also using biased models. In this case it would actually make sense to use Republican samples, because - unlike Celtiberians in Iberia - Republican Romans could survive Imperial era unaltered. Imperial samples so far are only from Rome and vicinity, not from all over Italy.

We should wait for a comprehensive study with samples from all over Italy including various rural areas, just like Olalde 2019 sampled most of Iberia.

=====

I mostly agree with this interpretation by Erik from Anthrogenica:

"This complete separation precisely show that this change didn't take place in 27 BCE - it almost certainly began in the Late Republican Era, my bet would be on both Pyrrhic War in 275 BCE and the destruction of Carthage in the 2nd century BCE - both of these process brought under Republican rule regions populated by East Mediterranean population (Magna Graecia) and MENA population (Carthage). Most likely over those two centuries Rome gradually changed to become extensively East Med and MENA.

I also don't believe Rome was mostly populated by Germanic tribes - I agree uniparental evidence points against this.

I believe that with the re-taking of Rome by the Eastern Roman Empire and the rest of Italy, Northern Italians moved south and gradually repopulated the region, leading to genetics of modern Central Italians, which are essentially an interim population between North Italians and South Italians (which are completely separated and show no overlap).

The fact that the very southern parts of South Italy continued to be part of the Eastern Roman Empire up until the 11th century CE, then the region was unified as the Kingdom of Naples and separated from Rome, made sure that Rome mostly got populated by Italians from Tuscany and up, and not from the South Italy which maintained the East Mediterranean genetic profile which during Imperial era stretched all the way to Rome."

=====

Edit:


North Italians and perhaps few Frenchies/Transalpines (wonder if the Church/Papal States played a significant role too over time)

Red line = East Med Roman-Germanic Barbarian cline. Thoughts?

https://i.imgur.com/x7MPpvb.png

This shows for period 300-700 CE the direction of gene flow into Lazio from areas between Spain and Germany:

https://i.imgur.com/Km71izg.png

^^^
Those Bronze Age Anatolians were genetically a lot like modern Cyprus.

Imperial Rome is modelled as 20% Republic Romans plus 80% Cyprus:

https://i.imgur.com/hUT1F4d.png

^^^
This is 4/5 replacement. Do you really believe countryside was also 80% replaced?


(...)

Imperial Rome is just 20% Republic Roman + 80% Anatolia Bronze Age or modern Cyprus:

https://i.imgur.com/hUT1F4d.png

^^^
Do you really believe entire population of Italy was 80% replaced by East Med immigrants?

Or was it just the city itself (where samples are from) that experienced such replacement?

BTW:

I predicted this massive MENA immigration into Rome months ago, when pretty much everyone else (including you) were arguing that Romans were "genetically Sicilian" already when "Trojans/Greeks" founded the city. That was your fantasy at that time. And guess who was right and who was wrong. Turns out Early Romans were almost Central European. Now I'm saying that this 80% Cypriot genetics from Imperial Rome was only limited to the city, which later got extinct.

I'm not saying this genetic influence was completely absent from smaller towns and the countryside, but surely was not as strong as in Rome itself. Just wait until the next study with samples from all over Italy, not just Rome, destroys your new fantasy about 80% MENA-populated Imperial Italy.

[Zeno]

How many slaps can these nordicists take? :icon_lol:

An infinite amount it seems. They will always be in denial.

[Token]

The BAM files are out. We will have the Romans on Global25 soon.
https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/ERP115266

[Voskos]

Its unlikely that 80% of imperial roman admixture was anatolian. the second model (42% iron age +58% levantine) seems more plausible imho.

[Zeno]

It would be awesome if a large, in depth study was made about the Greeks. That way, both the genetic "mysteries" and the blabbing of Nordicists would finally stop.

[MinervaItalica]

There are different/new genetic studies almost every year and then this one will be history. They are fun just for the moment. Personally i don't care of Ancient Roman genetics but what that civilization achieved.

[Leto]

There are different/new genetic studies almost every year and then this one will be history. They are fun just for the moment. Personally i don't care of Ancient Roman genetics but what that civilization achieved.
And you aren't even going to order a test for yourself?

[Jana]

It would be awesome if a large, in depth study was made about the Greeks. That way, both the genetic "mysteries" and the blabbing of Nordicists would finally stop.

We already have Mycenaeans.

[Enr1989]

Early Romans were North shifted, corded ware samples were found on Palatino hill belonging to proto Latin people still in the 70s, likely shepherds coming from Central Europe 1500 BC

[Leto]

The BAM files are out. We will have the Romans on Global25 soon.
https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/ERP115266
And GEDmatch?

[Zeno]

We already have Mycenaeans.

I mean all periods ;)

[Jana]

I mean all periods ;)

I know, Dorians etc. But they won't be anywhere near Nordics, I guarantee you that. Eventually more northern shifted, but nothing dramatic.

[MinervaItalica]

And you aren't even going to order a test for yourself?

Not interested sorry. I've better things to buy for the price of a test.

[Dick]

There are different/new genetic studies almost every year and then this one will be history. They are fun just for the moment. Personally i don't care of Ancient Roman genetics but what that civilization achieved.

Well Romans were badass, if not the most badass Europeans imo , but it shows their decline started to happen after influx of migrants. Something that’s being repeated today. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santanaya.

[Leto]

Not interested sorry. I've better things to buy for the price of a test.
Then you aren't interested in this discussion in general.

[MinervaItalica]

Well Romans were badass, if not the most badass Europeans imo , but it shows their decline started to happen after influx of migrants. Something that’s being repeated today. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santanaya.

True but the influx of immigrants (especially germanics who were given elite positions) is not the only reason. Also economical and political.


Then you aren't interested in this discussion in general.

I'm interested everything about Ancient Rome but less about its genetic heritage. This is why i didn't comment much here.

[Jana]

Well Romans were badass, if not the most badass Europeans imo , but it shows their decline started to happen after influx of migrants. Something that’s being repeated today. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santanaya.

Imperial Rome was much more relevant than Roman Republic. If anything, decline started when Germanics started raiding Italian peninsula.
As XP said, East Med like Imperial Rome was on height of it's power.

[Adamastor]

Well Romans were badass, if not the most badass Europeans imo , but it shows their decline started to happen after influx of migrants. Something that’s being repeated today. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santanaya.

I'm not trying to be an ass (I really think modern immigration to Europe sucks), but Romans were probably already significantly MENA admixed by the time of their peak in Augustus. They could not go from Northwestern Italian-like to Eastern Mediterranean in only 100 years. So it's difficult to attribute their decline to admixture or anything like that.
By the time of the Punic Wars they were already absorbing heavy Greek (i.e. ancient Greek, less euro-shifted than modern Greeks) and Anatolian influences.


Its unlikely that 80% of imperial roman admixture was anatolian. the second model (42% iron age +58% levantine) seems more plausible imho.

Not really, if you look at ancient history you would see that the influx of Anatolian peoples to Rome was immense. The first MENAs to arrive en masse in Italy were certainly the Anatolians. The Romans even established a cult for the Anatolian Mother Goddess in the Republican period.

The relations of Romans with Anatolian Greek kingdoms and the absorption of Magna Graecia marked the last two centuries of the Republic after the Punic Wars.

[MinervaItalica]

Imperial Rome was much more relevant than Roman Republic. If anything, decline started when Germanics started raiding Italian peninsula.
As XP said, East Med like Imperial Rome was on height of it's power.

Imperial Rome was mostly about "keeping borders secure". Roman Rep. is when Romans were truly conquerors and produced the best generals. Decline started when the mixed emperors/generals etc... started to have political influence, they didn't have any interest in keeping Rome the heart of the Empire because they weren't native.

[Zeno]

I know, Dorians etc. But they won't be anywhere near Nordics, I guarantee you that. Eventually more northern shifted, but nothing dramatic.

I have full knowledge of that.

[Leto]

Well Romans were badass, if not the most badass Europeans imo , but it shows their decline started to happen after influx of migrants. Something that’s being repeated today. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santanaya.
Byzantium aka the Eastern Roman Empire was better, it is historically the most successful empire, existed continuously for 1,000 years. Of course you won't hear much about it in the West for obvious reasons.

[MinervaItalica]

Byzantium aka the Eastern Roman Empire was better, it is historically the most successful empire, existed continuously for 1,000 years. Of course you won't hear much about it in the West for obvious reasons.

For what reasons if i may ask? Since its formation started to gradually lose territories...

[Leto]

For what reasons if i may ask? Since its formation started to gradually lose territories...
They existed for one thousand years, like I said. Full continuity. Of course you Papists will never accept it, I'm not gonna argue. Keep larping as a slayer of Germanics, bro (as if Germanic invasions were a thing in this day and age, I haven't seen too many Germanics coming from the Southern Mediterranean to Italy :lol:)

[Calpurnius]

Well Romans were badass, if not the most badass Europeans imo , but it shows their decline started to happen after influx of migrants. Something that’s being repeated today. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santanaya.
Pretty much.
https://i.imgur.com/lHWOFKO.jpg

[Voskos]

Ibd sharing of modern sicilians btw. The screencap is from a published Greek study :

https://snipboard.io/zAWLtv.jpg

[MinervaItalica]

They existed for one thousand years, like I said. Full continuity. Of course you Papists will never accept it, I'm not gonna argue. Keep larping as a slayer of Germanics, bro (as if Germanic invasions were a thing in this day and age, I haven't seen too many Germanics coming from the Southern Mediterranean to Italy :lol:)

Full continuity my ass. They were done by 1204...

Only the Republic of Venice lasted 1000 years full continuity.

What's the point in lasting thousand of years if you are struggling all the time to keep your territories? :picard1:

[Dick]

Imperial Rome was mostly about "keeping borders secure". Roman Rep. is when Romans were truly conquerors and produced the best generals. Decline started when the mixed emperors/generals etc... started to have political influence, they didn't have any interest in keeping Rome the heart of the Empire because they weren't native.
This. The republic existed for over 400 years

[Samnium]

And GEDmatch?

I'm downloading a roman republican era sample !

[Leto]

Full continuity my ass. They were done by 1204...

Only the Republic of Venice lasted 1000 years full continuity.

What's the point in lasting thousand of years if you are struggling all the time to keep your territories? :picard1:
So what? Western Rome existed for like 500 years from Julius Caesar up until the fall of Rome in the 5th century.

[Karol Klačansky]

I'm downloading a roman republican era sample !Someone needs to upload them to Gedmatch too and then share them on here.

Sent from my ANE-LX1 using Tapatalk

[Karol Klačansky]

So what? Western Rome existed for like 500 years from Julius Caesar up until the fall of Rome in the 5th century.Byzantine empire wouldn't have existed with out the western Roman empire. Why do you want to claim one was better than the other we are all Europeans and the eastern and western churches are the same, it's a shame they are seprerated. We should reunite and continue the Roman legacy this way.

Sent from my ANE-LX1 using Tapatalk

[MinervaItalica]

So what? Western Rome existed for like 500 years from Julius Caesar up until the fall of Rome in the 5th century.

Roman Kingdom, Republic and Empire normally are counted as one...

Also the Byzantine should be included tbh.

[Dorian]

Seems like with the fall of republicans the history of a conqueror tribe ends , anything after that should be claimed by menas as history of the mena diaspora.

[Messier 67]

I only see around 10 individuals with Greek and/or Cypriot ancestry based on the haplotype sharing figure, mostly dated Imperial Era ,Late antiquity , medieval.
Out of a total of 60 (iirc) samples for the three eras that's around 17%. Not much, but still significant especially if we take into account the fact that the samples aren't even from Magna Graecia.

Article approved by Moots:

Of 48 individuals sampled from this (Imperial) period, only two showed strong genetic ties to Europe. Another two had strong North African ancestry. The rest had ancestry connecting them to Greece, Syria, Lebanon, and other places in the Eastern Mediterranean and Middle East.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/11/many-imperial-romans-had-roots-middle-east-genetic-history-shows

[Messier 67]

Well Romans were badass, if not the most badass Europeans imo , but it shows their decline started to happen after influx of migrants. Something that’s being repeated today. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santanaya.

Rome was upwards of 80% foreigners in the 1st to 2nd century CE (Over 50% is a good guess). Multiculturalism did not destroy Rome. Multiculturalism was Imperial Rome. Christianity and barbarians to the North destroyed Rome.

So your racist conclusion is that Ancient Greeks and Ancient Phoenicians brought down the Roman Empire because their DNA was not acceptable to you. The same Anatolians were Romans until 1453. The Eastern Meds were Romans for nearly longer than the Romans themselves. The foreigners taught, the Romans and Etruscans, civilization. Civilization came from the Eastern Med.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orientalizing_period

Christianity brought the waiting for the Scrolls of Revelation to be opened and an end to the Roman Empire. The barbarians complied with this desire.

Here is the Eastern Roman Empire started by a Roman named Constantine:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/Byzantine_Empire_555_AD.png

Eastern Roman Empire was filled with Eastern Meds, this was their empire. And barbarians from the sand weakened this Roman Empire. The same barbarians that destroyed the Sassanian Empire

[Jana]

Peak of Romean territorial expansion came under Trajan, during Imperial times
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/00/Roman_Empire_Trajan_117AD.png/1920px-Roman_Empire_Trajan_117AD.png

[Arch Hades]

LOL at just 10% Mediterranean during Roman Republic?!: :eek:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfEck9mUoJA

https://i.imgur.com/ZlHCqMZ.png


Kind of idiotic terminology i'd say. For instance why is Neolithic Anatolian farmer not considered "Mediterranean"? It evolved around the Mediterranean and is highest in present day Sardinians. I guess modern Sardinians arent Mediterranean either. If they're not Mediterranean who is? :crazy:

[Messier 67]

Peak of Romean territorial expansion came under Trajan, during Imperial times
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/00/Roman_Empire_Trajan_117AD.png/1920px-Roman_Empire_Trajan_117AD.png

True, but these territories were only held for a few years, the conquest of the Eastern Mediterranean occurred by 50 CE:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5zYpWcz1-E

[kefalonitis]

Since its formation started to gradually lose territories...

:picard1:
In their 1059 year-long history they were gaining or lossing territories depending their strength and position in the international scene,
just like any other empire.Some emperors expanded while some others shrinked the borders of the Empire.
During Justinian rule the Roman Empire regained its former glory,but it's unrealistic to hold vast territories for such a long time,
especially after the emergence of barbarians like germanics,arabs,turks and slavs.
https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/courses-images/wp-content/uploads/sites/1489/2017/04/18182755/justinian555ad.png




Only the Republic of Venice lasted 1000 years full continuity.
What's the point in lasting thousand of years if you are struggling all the time to keep your territories? :picard1:

:lmao:lmao:lmao
Don't offend the Romans by comparing them to the Venetians
and also your last sentence doesn't make any sense.

[catgeorge]

Fall of empire only occured because their payment to farmers diluted silver... Rome economically peaked.. it's almost identicle to how the US Fed dilutes the USD by printing more dollars with less value.

Basically the coinage became worthless and diluted due to ongoing wars and lavish civilization to pay soldiers and not enough silver to mine.

[MinervaItalica]

:picard1:
In their 1059 year-long history they were gaining or lossing territories

More lossing :)

Maximum expansion 560 AD and by 600 AD they started to lose everything...

0:39


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GylVIyK6voU


Don't offend the Romans by comparing them to the Venetians.

Romans have nothing to do now, We are speaking about Byzantines (Greek speakers) here which they weren't really Romans you know. I mean Venice, a fucking city state dammit, managed to put an empire in crisis.

[dududud]

Kind of idiotic terminology i'd say. For instance why is Neolithic Anatolian farmer not considered "Mediterranean"? It evolved around the Mediterranean and is highest in present day Sardinians. I guess modern Sardinians arent Mediterranean either. If they're not Mediterranean who is? :crazy:

Nobody, sardinians are a preindo-european population. Mediterraneans means everything and surtout nothing, genetically speaking.

[Messier 67]

More lossing :)

Maximum expansion 560 AD and by 600 AD they started to lose everything...

0:39


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GylVIyK6voU



Romans have nothing to do now, We are speaking about Byzantines (Greek speakers) here which they weren't really Romans you know. I mean Venice, a fucking city state dammit, managed to put an empire in crisis.

Eastern Romans lost land due to barbarians who wiped out the Sassanians. The Arabs defeated the barbaric Visigothic kingdom. The Muslim invaders were as far north as central France. This loss of Byzantine land was not due to incompetence in running a Empire due to a migrant crisis. The crisis was invasion by Barbarian armies. Something that wiped out the West Romans, with invading barbarian armies from the north in the huns and goths.

IIRC, the same Venetians stopped the barbaric Turks cold with their navy. Venetians were rich and could afford a huge navy to rival Empires.

[wvwvw]

Byzantine empire wouldn't have existed with out the western Roman empire. Why do you want to claim one was better than the other we are all Europeans and the eastern and western churches are the same, it's a shame they are seprerated. We should reunite and continue the Roman legacy this way.

Sent from my ANE-LX1 using Tapatalk

It wouldn't have existed? What do you think the Byzantine Empire was? It was essentially a continuation of the Empire of Alexander. It extented to lands where Greeks had been living since antiquity. They had been migrating there since Mycenean times. More than half of the Greek population lived in Asia-Minor, Syria and Egypt. Which is also why it lasted so long. It wouldn't have existed without the Greeks.

[Adamastor]

Byzantines were nothing compared with the Roman Republic and early Roman Empire, let's be honest.

[Arch Hades]

Byzantines were nothing compared with the Roman Republic and early Roman Empire, let's be honest.


I wouldn't say that now.

https://ayasofyamuzesi.gov.tr/sites/default/files/hagia-sophia-interior_1.jpg

[Samnium]

I wouldn't say that now.

https://ayasofyamuzesi.gov.tr/sites/default/files/hagia-sophia-interior_1.jpg

Basilica San Marco is also heavily Byzantine in it's interior decoration.

And also outside architecture (like the "bulbs", very present in Eastern Christianity architecture)

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/xiAmQY35M6k/maxresdefault.jpg
https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/die-decke-der-kathedrale-san-marco-venedig-27181106.jpg
https://raffaellonavigazione.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/san-marco-venezia-basilica.jpg

https://www.venicesothebysrealty.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/IMG_7748.jpg
http://www.hotelfree.it/itinerari_veneto/img/cupole-basilica.jpg

Personally I like more Republican Roman era because it's closer to me culturally and obviously "genetically" but I recognize Bizantine importance.

[Messier 67]

The Byzantines are clear proof that the Eastern Meds as plebs did not bring down the Roman Empire. They ran a successful Empire through many difficulties. Only the barbarian Turko-Slavs Ottomans brought down the empire 1000 years after New Rome was founded. That was a long run.

Civilizations from pre-history to late antiquity in Eastern Med

Minoan
Myceanean
Ancient Greeks
Macedonians
Phoenician
Assyrian
Hittite
Eastern Roman Empire


Civilizations from Middle East
Summerians
Babyloanians
Persians
Parthian
Sasanian


Civilizations that influenced Rome:
Carthaginians
Etruscans
Greeks

[Leto]

Only the barbarian Turko-Slavs Ottomans brought down the empire 1000 years after New Rome was founded.

What kind of nonsense is that? Why did you hyphenate Slavs and Turks as Ottomans? Slavs didn't bring down Byzantium, in fact it was invaded by Western Crusaders, besides the Arabs and Seljuks.

[Messier 67]

What kind of nonsense is that? Why did you hyphenate Slavs and Turks as Ottomans? Slavs didn't bring down Byzantium, in fact it was invaded by Western Crusaders, besides the Arabs and Seljuks.

The Sultan and the Turks were mainly R1a-Z93, as were many of the Hungarian barbarians. These barbarians are related to the Slav R1a-Z93 barbarians.

[Dna8]

What kind of nonsense is that? Why did you hyphenate Slavs and Turks as Ottomans? Slavs didn't bring down Byzantium, in fact it was invaded by Western Crusaders, besides the Arabs and Seljuks.

https://media.giphy.com/media/U1aN4HTfJ2SmgB2BBK/giphy.gif

Quit spamming the thread with your irrelevant nonsense.

[kefalonitis]

More lossing :)

Maximum expansion 560 AD and by 600 AD they started to lose everything...

0:39



Please don't post amateur yt videos to represent a history of 1059 years,it's childish and meaningless.
Most of the time the core of the Roman Empire was Greece,Balkans and Anatolia.
A lot of peripheral territories were vassals or economically depended to Constantinople through trade agreements(Constantinople was a global economical centre for many centuries).
Large territories cannot be held for a long time.That's a fact.For example during the reign of Basil II the Roman Empire was stretched from southern Italy to the Caucasus and from the Danube to the Levant.That collosal state inherited many problems to the next emperors with revolts and economic stagnation.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DIJsG8rWsAAUY73.jpg


Romans have nothing to do now, We are speaking about Byzantines (Greek speakers) here which they weren't really Romans you know. I mean Venice, a fucking city state dammit, managed to put an empire in crisis.


''Byzantine'' what a ridiculous term,they never called themselves like this.
They were the only legal succesors of the Roman Empire and that's not even debateable.
Ιf you love the roman civilization you cannot hate the Romans who survived from the barbarian invasions and founded their new state in Constantinople.
Except if you have become a barbarian.:D


The history of Venice begins when people from the mainland came to the marshy islands for refuge.
According to tradition, the citizens of Venice originated from nearby cities like Aquileia,
who were fleeing successive waves of Germanic and Hun invasions. Over the next few centuries,
these people slowly transformed the islands into what they are today. Because of their defensive position,
the Venetians were basically able to maintain their independence from the invading barbarians, and thus essentially remain Roman.
The collapse of the Western Roman Empire made them naturally lean towards remaining Eastern Empire.
The Byzantine Emperor Justinian firmly brought Venice under the rule of the Byzantine Empire.

Stop making me laugh.

[Dna8]

There are currently 20 users browsing this thread. (7 members and 13 guests)

Dna8, kefalonitis, Leto, Albannach, vbnetkhio, lacreme, Armenian Bishop+

[Leto]

https://media.giphy.com/media/U1aN4HTfJ2SmgB2BBK/giphy.gif

Quit spamming the thread with your irrelevant nonsense.
Shut up, you're a traitor to Serbia, a race mixer and libtard.

[Dna8]

Shut up, you're a traitor to Serbia, a race mixer and libtard.

You sell seashells by the seashore in Spain, you Mongol Tinkerer

[Leto]

You sell seashells by the seashore in Spain, you Mongol Tinkerer
Lol, what a goofball!
But why did you single me out? There is 35 pages in this thread and I merely commented on what another user said, yet you picked on me. I guess you are the spammer here.

[MinervaItalica]

''Byzantine'' what a ridiculous term,they never called themselves like this.
They were the only legal succesors of the Roman Empire and that's not even debateable.
Ιf you love the roman civilization you cannot hate the Romans who survived from the barbarian invasions and founded their new state in Constantinople.

I know that the real name is Eastern Roman Empire, i used "Byzantine" to indicate the Greek speaking period which is the one we are discussing about. In fact I love Roman civilization, ERE included but that doesn't mean spouting bullshits or glorify something that cannot be glorified. The ERE since the split (apart for the maximum expansion under Justinian) only lost territories and fought in difensive manners.


Except if you have become a barbarian.:D

And Constantinople became Muslim/Turkish (and still is), not much better... :rolleyes:

[Karol Klačansky]

It wouldn't have existed? What do you think the Byzantine Empire was? It was essentially a continuation of the Empire of Alexander. It extented to lands where Greeks had been living since antiquity. They had been migrating there since Mycenean times. More than half of the Greek population lived in Asia-Minor, Syria and Egypt. Which is also why it lasted so long. It wouldn't have existed without the Greeks.Byzantine empire is the legacy of the Romans so yes it wouldn't have existed with out Rome, so what. This old prejudice should stop from the orthodox against the west we need to unite and become one church again and unite Europe against Islam and the liberal secularism that is causing Europeans to have an insanely low birth rate.

Sent from my ANE-LX1 using Tapatalk

[Dna8]

Lol, what a goofball!
But why did you single me out? There is 35 pages in this thread and I merely commented on what another user said, yet you picked on me. I guess you are the spammer here.

Nice post.

Print it out and have it at hand when you assess your post yesterday directed at me and referencing retardation.

[Voskos]

@axis

Greeks have nothing against italians, we even called ourselves romios in the past and even now. Nevertheless we still have the right to our own culture and values .

[Jana]

Byzantine empire is the legacy of the Romans so yes it wouldn't have existed with out Rome, so what. This old prejudice should stop from the orthodox against the west we need to unite and become one church again and unite Europe against Islam and the liberal secularism that is causing Europeans to have an insanely low birth rate.

Sent from my ANE-LX1 using Tapatalk

I noticed Orthodox Christians are far less interested, and much more closed towards idea of Christian Unity than Catholics and Protestants are.

[kefalonitis]

I know that the real name is Eastern Roman Empire, i used "Byzantine" to indicate the Greek speaking period which is the one we are discussing about. In fact I love Roman civilization, ERE included but that doesn't mean spouting bullshits or glorify something that cannot be glorified. The ERE since the split (apart for the maximum expansion under Justinian) only lost territories and fought in difensive manners.


No it is just the Roman Empire,without the ''Eastern''.The people called their country Romania(in greek it means ''the land of Romans'').
And why a world power cannot be glorified?:picard1:

[wvwvw]

I read some of the comments from Anthroscape: lmao

jesus

No wonder Italy and Iran have almost the same flag

EHG showing up in Italy only after 0 AD is ground breaking. This means the proto latins were low in steppe (or didn’t have any at all).

Racial Reality
3,521
14
Feb 09#12
Finally!

So basically since Neolithic times, Ancient Italians have resembled Modern Italians (Sardinian, Sicilian, South, North). Then in Imperial times, some foreigners from the Middle East and North/West Europe showed up, but they must've left or died out or been a tiny minority because after that, Italians were still their same pre-empire selves.

Nordicists everywhere are crying right now.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/anthroscape/upcoming-study-on-ancient-italian-dna-t87552.html

[MinervaItalica]

I read some of the comments from Anthroscape: lmao

jesus

No wonder Italy and Iran have almost the same flag

EHG showing up in Italy only after 0 AD is ground breaking. This means the proto latins were low in steppe (or didn’t have any at all).

Racial Reality
3,521
14
Feb 09#12
Finally!

So basically since Neolithic times, Ancient Italians have resembled Modern Italians (Sardinian, Sicilian, South, North). Then in Imperial times, some foreigners from the Middle East and North/West Europe showed up, but they must've left or died out or been a tiny minority because after that, Italians were still their same pre-empire selves.

Nordicists everywhere are crying right now.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/anthroscape/upcoming-study-on-ancient-italian-dna-t87552.html

:confused:

[wvwvw]

Byzantine empire is the legacy of the Romans so yes it wouldn't have existed with out Rome, so what. This old prejudice should stop from the orthodox against the west we need to unite and become one church again and unite Europe against Islam and the liberal secularism that is causing Europeans to have an insanely low birth rate.

Sent from my ANE-LX1 using Tapatalk

With that reasoning the Roman Empire would not exist without the Greeks. The Roman legal and political system originated from Greece. The Achaeans gave the Italians their constitutions and the Arcadian's their religion. The lingua Franca of the Empire was Greek (Like Aramaic was in Persian Empire).

[Karol Klačansky]

I noticed Orthodox Christians are far less interested, and much more closed towards idea of Christian Unity than Catholics and Protestants are.

Unfortunately they inherited an illogical prejudice against Catholics and the west. Protestants are another story, but for me as a Catholic the orthodox church is my church and is Catholic, the fact that we are separated is a shame for us Christians and for serious Christians, either Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic, Jesus commanded us to be one so its our duty to overcome our differences.

[Karol Klačansky]

With that reasoning the Roman Empire would not exist without the Greeks. The Roman legal and political system originated from Greece. The Achaeans gave the Italians their constitutions and the Arcadian's their religion. The lingua Franca of the Empire was Greek (Like Aramaic was in Persian Empire).

I agree thats why I dont agree with East vs West. All the more reason to unite.

[MinervaItalica]

With that reasoning the Roman Empire would not exist without the Greeks. The Roman legal and political system originated from Greece. The Achaeans gave the Italians their constitutions and the Arcadian's their religion. The lingua Franca of the Empire was Greek (Like Aramaic was in Persian Empire).

The Senate wasn't a Greek thing.


Latin was the original language of the Romans and remained the language of imperial administration, legislation, and the military throughout the classical period.[2] In the West it became the lingua franca and came to be used for even local administration of the cities including the law courts.[3][4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_Roman_Empire

[wvwvw]

:confused:

He is some arab from Anthroscape who loves to woggify modern Italians to feed his complex but Racial Reality is ok.

[Samnium]

With that reasoning the Roman Empire would not exist without the Greeks. The Roman legal and political system originated from Greece. The Achaeans gave the Italians their constitutions and the Arcadian's their religion. The lingua Franca of the Empire was Greek (Like Aramaic was in Persian Empire).

Etruscans weren't greeks and gave to Rome his religion, his political atributes and many other things. Case close.

And I'm not anti-Greek at all but stop with your agenda.

Certainly greeks influenced Romans but there are different in a lot of aspects. They had a great influence on roman art and architecture, as well as philosophy. At the same time the Roman urbanisation, civil ingeneering, military tactics are completely invented by them.

[Jana]

Unfortunately they inherited an illogical prejudice against Catholics and the west. Protestants are another story, but for me as a Catholic the orthodox church is my church and is Catholic, the fact that we are separated is a shame for us Christians and for serious Christians, either Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic, Jesus commanded us to be one so its our duty to overcome our differences.

Wonderful post and I completely agree, but I am afraid we are in minority.

[Samnium]

There are also people that are distorting the paper to match with their agenda on Anthroscape:

Interesting but quite a few things, like the labeling, don't entirely make sense reading that. It seems whoever wrote/reported that seemed a bit confused by them too. What we do know from prior papers, that modern (Southern) Italians are almost identical to Bronze Age Southern Europeans and that Sicilians and other Southern Italians are the only Italians who overlap with the Mycenaeans.

So the Southern Italians, and partially the Romans, were of the same stock as Mycenaeans basically, being Neolithic + CHG-rich IE types. The Iron Age/ Republic period with "60% overlap" with Northern Italians seems to imply that there was some sorta Northern Italian-like movement of people, probably more Steppe Yamnaya infused peoples into Romans of this periods genepool, but they didnt seem to last the subsequent periods - as the Iron Age/Republic era's 40% "Southern Italian/Sicilian would only increase and dominate the following periods. So basically modern Latins are predominately Greek, Cypriot, South Italians/Sicilian but closest to Sicilians with some Northern Italian, Spanish and French and thus ultimately end up as modern "Central Italians",lol.

I don't know how to describe how much stupidities are in this post.

First Sicilians and S.Italians don't overlap at ALL with Myceneans, they have much more Levantine input (some areas although are near 0 levantine input) less EEF, as well a lot more Yamnaya (Myceneans had between 10/15% Yamnaya).

+ The Bell Beaker Sicilian that is quite Sardinian-like is not the same at all that modern Sicilians.

Second, the Republican era are from etruscans/latins areas without any known north-italian movement as he said. By the way Imperial Era samples were western shifted, they had little Yamnaya.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/638825419436720148/642092296170373133/unknown.png

[wvwvw]

There are also people that are distorting the paper to match with their agenda on Anthroscape:

Same poster also wrote:

I havent logged in as often but apparently a poster on Anthrogenetica leaked the PCA in a very chaotic thread back in May. The gist of it is that Ancient Roman samples actually are clustering with Southern Italians and Greeks even. There was an Etruscan sample, that actually clusters with Tuscans and maybe some Iberians .

Basically contrary to some things Moots supposedly said from the original leak in the OP - there are NO Northern Italian like Roman samples ,. The most northern one lands on basically the Tuscans. Whether Moots is mixing up Central Italy with Northern Italy or Etruscan's with Romans is unclear in her her early draft or whatever its called. Some people think the PCA is from yet another study on Ancient Italians and not from Moots.

This is the PCA :

Another poster had titled it:

https://i.imgur.com/SHjZcj8.png

What about continental Celtic populations? Were they like this too?

[hotrod]

This paper solves the Syrian refugee crisis nicely. Italy is Syrians home away from home. Italians must now accommodate their Syrian blood brothers.

[Samnium]

Same poster also wrote:

I havent logged in as often but apparently a poster on Anthrogenetica leaked the PCA in a very chaotic thread back in May. The gist of it is that Ancient Roman samples actually are clustering with Southern Italians and Greeks even. There was an Etruscan sample, that actually clusters with Tuscans and maybe some Iberians .

Basically contrary to some things Moots supposedly said from the original leak in the OP - there are NO Northern Italian like Roman samples ,. The most northern one lands on basically the Tuscans. Whether Moots is mixing up Central Italy with Northern Italy or Etruscan's with Romans is unclear in her her early draft or whatever its called. Some people think the PCA is from yet another study on Ancient Italians and not from Moots.

This is the PCA :

Another poster had titled it:

https://i.imgur.com/SHjZcj8.png

What about continental Celtic populations? Were they like this too?

The same :

The Ancient and Modern Italians of Rome are pretty much the same with little change. Most of ancient/past Roman/italian samples actually are clustering with Southern Italians and very little in Northern Italy & Central Italy.


The Present day Romans still resemble Southern Italians.

:rofl_002::rofl_002::rofl_002:

[Samnium]

This paper solves the Syrian refugee crisis nicely. Italy is Syrians home away from home. Italians must now accommodate their Syrian blood brothers.

I never seen an italian plotting with a syrian. Syrian are very different, I would not enumerate all genetical differences. Sure a good part of Italian belongs to the East Med continuum that extends until to Levant. What's your conclusion, genius ? Not white because closer to Syrians than Finns ?

Now you can accomodate this message with your mouth and shutting it because this kind of trolling is indecent.

And after that italians aren't the most bashed ethnicity ? Let me laugh.

[catgeorge]

Only 163 pages to go.

:pop2:

[Dick]

He is some arab from Anthroscape who loves to woggify modern Italians to feed his complex

There's already a couple of them(or non-Europeans in general) posting in this thread to feed their complex.

[Kamal900]

I never seen an italian plotting with a syrian. Syrian are very different, I would not enumerate all genetical differences. Sure a good part of Italian belongs to the East Med continuum that extends until to Levant. What's your conclusion, genius ? Not white because closer to Syeians than Finns ?

Now you can accomadate this message with your mouth and shutting it because this kind of trolling is indecent.

And after that italians aren't the most bashed ethnicity ? Let me laugh.

He thinks that Europeans look like Swedes or something even though Europeans are pretty diverse in cultures and phenotypes. That's what you call the American archetype of being White which is obviously false.

[Karol Klačansky]

Wonderful post and I completely agree, but I am afraid we are in minority.I've noticed among the orthodox bishops and clergy that there are many who have real faith and these ones are very open and positive about Catholics. Of course there are many who have the classical prejudice which influences the laity more. Hopefully this attitude slowly changes.

Sent from my ANE-LX1 using Tapatalk

[Peterski]

Sample R435 Roman Republic, 600-200 BC, Similitude Map:

https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm

K36 results:

R435
Basque 5.56
Central_Euro 2.72
Eastern_Euro 0.55
Fennoscandian 3.40
French 12.68
Iberian 21.95
Italian 23.51
North_Atlantic 6.45
North_Sea 12.39
West_Med 10.80

https://i.imgur.com/ERHPOCz.png

Sample R1021 Iron Age B, 700-600 BC, Similitude Map:

K36 results:

R1021
Basque 2.44
Central_Euro 6.81
East_Balkan 2.65
East_Central_Euro 0.70
East_Med 4.06
Fennoscandian 0.21
French 8.25
Iberian 26.56
Italian 25.56
Near_Eastern 0.50
North_African 0.46
North_Atlantic 3.75
North_Sea 4.85
Volga-Ural 0.01
West_Caucasian 0.69
West_Med 12.49

https://i.imgur.com/y1gCMh8.png

[Karol Klačansky]

Sample R435 Roman Republic, 600-200 BC, Similitude Map:

https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm

K36 results:

R435
Basque 5.56
Central_Euro 2.72
Eastern_Euro 0.55
Fennoscandian 3.40
French 12.68
Iberian 21.95
Italian 23.51
North_Atlantic 6.45
North_Sea 12.39
West_Med 10.80

https://i.imgur.com/ERHPOCz.png

Sample R1021 Iron Age B, 700-600 BC, Similitude Map:

K36 results:

R1021
Basque2.44
Central_Euro6.81
East_Balkan2.65
East_Central_Euro0.70
East_Med4.06
Fennoscandian0.21
French8.25
Iberian26.56
Italian25.56
Near_Eastern0.50
North_African0.46
North_Atlantic3.75
North_Sea4.85
Volga-Ural0.01
West_Caucasian0.69
West_Med12.49

https://i.imgur.com/y1gCMh8.pngThey seem genetically quite different from each other, one resembles a southern French guy and the other a Sardinian, they both may possibly also not be native to Rome but immigrants to the capital.

[Peterski]

They seem genetically quite different from each other, one resembles a southern French guy and the other a Sardinian.

That is not Sardinia but Balearic Islands, which are genetically quite similar to Southern France.

Also pay attention to scores just below 80 - for example 79 similarity to Swiss Italians in Ticino).

[Karol Klačansky]

That is not Sardinia but Balearic Islands, which are genetically quite similar to Southern France.

Also pay attention to scores just below 80 - for example 79 similarity to Swiss Italians in Ticino).Your right I didn't look well. Makes more sense. Didn't Julius cesar say that in Southern France they spoke the purest Latin? Maybe it's because they were pure Latins lol

Sent from my ANE-LX1 using Tapatalk

[Jana]

Eurogenes K13, rest is not that reliable. Global 25 would be even better.

[Samnium]

Eurogenes K13, rest is not that reliable. Global 25 would be even better.

They will be surely added soon, mytrueancestry.com has added these only some hours after the publication of the results

[Voskos]

@ peterski. Are you the guy behind mytrueancestry.com?

[Leto]

Effing Peterski only uploads what he likes, don't try asking him to upload something for you...

[Adamastor]

Effing Peterski only uploads what he likes, don't try asking him to upload something for you...

Yeah, Peterski is not reliable because he has many agendas.

[Peterski]

I have no agenda, I have limited time.

It takes few hours to convert one BAM file. And I started with the ones I wanted to check.

Feel free to check more Med-shifted samples if you know how.

Also, I did not upload anything to GEDmatch yet. I am checking their admixtures offline.

=====

Table S2 Sample Info has all info about samples (archaeological site, culture, age of the sample, haplogroups):

92515

^^^
Based on that I decided to check one Iron Age, one Republic and one Imperial which looks similar to Republic:

(after I finish with these 3, I can check some others, feel free to suggest which ones)

Now I'm checking R116 which is dated to 0-200 AD and is from Imperial times but is similar to older samples:

https://i.imgur.com/ifUQWMP.png


Effing Peterski only uploads what he likes, don't try asking him to upload something for you...

I did not upload them to GEDmatch, I'm checking their admixtures offline. Maybe I will upload some.

But uploading samples to GEDmatch has become pain in the ass now after they added Captcha.

You have to confirm "I'm not a robot" and select all pictures with cars etc., before you can upload.

[Samnium]

I have no agenda, I have limited time.

It takes few hours to convert one BAM file. And I started with the ones I wanted to check.

Feel free to check more Med-shifted samples if you know how.

Also, I did not upload anything to GEDmatch yet. I am checking their admixtures offline.

=====

Table S2 Sample Info has all info about samples (archaeological site, culture, age of the sample, haplogroups):

92515

^^^
Based on that I decided to check one Iron Age, one Republic and one Imperial which looks similar to Republic:

(after I finish with these 3, I can check some others, feel free to suggest which ones)

Now I'm checking R116 which is dated to 0-200 AD and is from Imperial times but is similar to older samples:

https://i.imgur.com/ifUQWMP.png



I did not upload them to GEDmatch, I'm checking their admixtures offline. Maybe I will upload some.

But uploading samples to GEDmatch has become pain in the ass now after they added Captcha.

You have to confirm "I'm not a robot" and select all pictures with cars etc., before you can upload.

Do you have a software to convert BAM files ?

This doesn't work :

ftp://ftp.sra.ebi.ac.uk/../../

As well as all the other softwares

[Peterski]

Do you have a software to convert BAM files ?

Yes. But for example Davidski is not using BAM files, he waits until publication of samples in genotype format. So they will not be added to Global25 until gen files become available. I will check this new format as well (there might be some differences compared to results from BAM files, but not large).

[Samnium]

Yes. But for example Davidski is not using BAM files, he waits until publication of samples in genotype format. So they will not be added to Global25 until geno files become available. I will check this new format as well (they might be some differences compared to results from BAM files but should not be large).

All the softwares that I've checked are either on Linux or don't work. I have the R473 etruscan sample but I can't run it because I don't know how to convert it. :picard1:

[Peterski]

Yes working software are on Linux.

[Vid Flumina]

(after I finish with these 3, I can check some others, feel free to suggest which ones)


Early IA R1 from Martinsicuro (few hundred km south of Adriatic Veneti)

[savvas]

Early IA R1 from Martinsicuro (few hundred km south of Adriatic Veneti)

Well, he plots like eastern-shifted Venetians on that PCA...

[Calpurnius]

All of these programs are essentially designed for Linux, yeah. You may want to get one program for windows that emulates a linux environment, or maybe something like cygwin to compile them within windows.

[Dianatomia]

Nordicists are definitely at a loss here. Rome was basically run by North Italian-like to South-Italian (Greek-)like peoples. It was founded by the first and it reached its height by the latter. The same is true, obviously, for the continuation of the Byzantine Empire. They too were mostly East Med. Just like the Mycenaeans and the Classical Greeks among others. So basically these East Meds were the most dominant peoples in all Graeco-Roman civilizations. Imperial Rome, Constantinople, Athens and Alexandria were all populated by them.

[Samnium]

Nordicists are definitely at a loss here. Rome was basically run by North Italian-like to South-Italian (Greek-)like peoples. It was founded by the first and it reached its height by the latter. The same is true, obviously, for the continuation of the Byzantine Empire. They too were mostly East Med. Just like the Mycenaeans and the Classical Greeks among others. So basically these East Meds were the most dominant peoples in all Graeco-Roman civilizations. Imperial Rome, Constantinople, Athens and Alexandria were all populated by them.

The southwest french is an outlier and seems to be very close to what a proto-italic would have been. But for the Imperial samples only the northern end cluster with S.Italians, the rest are much more southern, some are even cluster with modern palestinians or syrians. These are probably immigrants samples.

The republican samples are in between Northern Italy and Iberia.

[Dianatomia]

The southwest french is an outlier and seems to be very close to what a proto-italic would have been. But for the Imperial samples only the northern end cluster with S.Italians, the rest are much more southern, some are even cluster with modern palestinians or syrians. These are probably immigrants samples.

Don't forget the South of Italy had many Phoenician colonies. They might have migrated to Rome.

[Leto]

Honestly I don't see too many 'Nordicists' here. Much more Southern Europeans constantly mentioning them.
Maybe you guys do like being associated with Ayrabs and stuff, don't know why though.

[Samnium]

Don't forget the South of Italy had many Phoenician colonies. They might have migrated to Rome.

The only phoenicians colonies in Italy (not harbors or settlements, whole parts of the territory under Carthage rule) were in Sardinia and Sicily.

[dududud]

The only phoenicians colonies in Italy (not harbors or settlements, whole parts of the territory under Carthage rule) were in Sardinia and Sicily.

In the coast of Sardegna, that's to say limited area. Not a very big genetic impact like many genetic study show it.

[MinervaItalica]

Nordicists are definitely at a loss here. Rome was basically run by North Italian-like to South-Italian (Greek-)like peoples. It was founded by the first and it reached its height by the latter. The same is true, obviously, for the continuation of the Byzantine Empire. They too were mostly East Med. Just like the Mycenaeans and the Classical Greeks among others. So basically these East Meds were the most dominant peoples in all Graeco-Roman civilizations. Imperial Rome, Constantinople, Athens and Alexandria were all populated by them.

Nordicists were at a loss about Rome since Nazi times.

[Adamastor]

Nordicists are definitely at a loss here. Rome was basically run by North Italian-like to South-Italian (Greek-)like peoples. It was founded by the first and it reached its height by the latter. The same is true, obviously, for the continuation of the Byzantine Empire. They too were mostly East Med. Just like the Mycenaeans and the Classical Greeks among others. So basically these East Meds were the most dominant peoples in all Graeco-Roman civilizations. Imperial Rome, Constantinople, Athens and Alexandria were all populated by them.

Northern Italians aren't East Meds.

[Samnium]

In the coast of Sardegna, that's to say limited area. Not a very big genetic impact like many genetic study show it.

Yes of course. They never occupied the inland unlike Sicily.

[Samnium]

Northern Italians aren't East Meds.

West Med yes, the East-Med continuum begins in Tuscany approximately.

[Leto]

Any results of full Emilia-Romagna people? At least 2-3 samples.

[Calpurnius]

Ok, after making a pact with satan himself and hours of attempts, I managed to obtain a .ind .geno .snp genome for R851 that can be merged with whatever 1240K dataset you wish like the Reich lab's ones, if anyone is interested I can upload it, should be about 135MB. I can also run some basic fstats and maybe attempt some models, don't ask me anything complicated like PCA or something :D

[Peterski]

R116 the "outlier" with high Steppe dated to 0-200 CE. Maybe he was a Gallic immigrant to Rome?:

(this sample has the highest level of Steppe admixture out of all Imperial samples, so not "typical")

His Y-DNA haplogroup: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z631/

K36 results:

Arabian 0.67
Armenian 0.63
Basque 5.90
Central_Euro 3.24
East_Balkan 6.25
East_Central_Euro 3.07
East_Med 0.02
Eastern_Euro 3.92
Fennoscandian 4.08
French 7.39
Iberian 25.17
Italian 16.47
Near_Eastern 0.74
North_Atlantic 7.52
North_Sea 12.29
Volga-Ural 1.36
West_Med 1.29

https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm

https://i.imgur.com/9y6eJMs.png

[dududud]

R116 the "outlier" with high Steppe dated to 0-200 CE. Maybe he was a Gallic immigrant to Rome?:

(this sample has the highest level of Steppe admixture out of all Imperial samples, so not "typical")

His Y-DNA haplogroup: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z631/

K36 results:

Arabian 0.67
Armenian 0.63
Basque 5.90
Central_Euro 3.24
East_Balkan 6.25
East_Central_Euro 3.07
East_Med 0.02
Eastern_Euro 3.92
Fennoscandian 4.08
French 7.39
Iberian 25.17
Italian 16.47
Near_Eastern 0.74
North_Atlantic 7.52
North_Sea 12.29
Volga-Ural 1.36
West_Med 1.29

https://i.imgur.com/9y6eJMs.png

Post his eurogene 15.

[Lucas]

But uploading samples to GEDmatch has become pain in the ass now after they added Captcha.

You have to confirm "I'm not a robot" and select all pictures with cars etc., before you can upload.

When the samples will be available in PLINK I can extract all and put in Google Drive and someone with much free time could upload them to Gedmatch...

[Calpurnius]

Ok, after making a pact with satan himself and hours of attempts, I managed to obtain a .ind .geno .snp genome for R851 that can be merged with whatever 1240K dataset you wish like the Reich lab's ones, if anyone is interested I can upload it, should be about 135MB. I can also run some basic fstats and maybe attempt some models, don't ask me anything complicated like PCA or something :D

Addendum: to check that it's well genotyped, here is a qpAdm run with a typical WHG, Anatolia_N and Yamnaya as sources, looks good
./qpAdm: parameter file: par_qpadm
### THE INPUT PARAMETERS
##PARAMETER NAME: VALUE
DIR: ../../data
S1: full
indivname: ../../data/full.ind
snpname: ../../data/full.snp
genotypename: ../../data/full.geno
popleft: left
popright: right
details: NO
## qpAdm version: 810
seed: 1663159267
packed geno read OK
end of inpack

left pops:
Rome_IA
WHG
Anatolia_N
Russia_Yamnaya_Samara

right pops:
CHG
Russia_Karelia_HG
Iberia_ElMiron
Belgium_GoyetQ116_1_published
Iran_Ganj_Dareh_N_published
Jordan_PPNB_published
Russia_Kostenki14.SG
Russia_MA1_HG.SG
Morocco_Iberomaurusian
Ethiopia_4500BP.SG
Israel_Raqefet_M_Natufian
Ust_Ishim_HG_published.DG
Czech_Vestonice16
Italy_Villabruna

0 Rome_IA 1
1 WHG 3
2 Anatolia_N 23
3 Russia_Yamnaya_Samara 8
4 CHG 2
5 Russia_Karelia_HG 2
6 Iberia_ElMiron 1
7 Belgium_GoyetQ116_1_published 1
8 Iran_Ganj_Dareh_N_published 3
9 Jordan_PPNB_published 3
10 Russia_Kostenki14.SG 1
11 Russia_MA1_HG.SG 1
12 Morocco_Iberomaurusian 6
13 Ethiopia_4500BP.SG 1
14 Israel_Raqefet_M_Natufian 3
15 Ust_Ishim_HG_published.DG 1
16 Czech_Vestonice16 1
17 Italy_Villabruna 1
jackknife block size: 0.050
snps: 1135461 indivs: 62
number of blocks for block jackknife: 713
## ncols: 1135461
coverage: Rome_IA 518902
coverage: WHG 1131782
coverage: Anatolia_N 1122108
coverage: Russia_Yamnaya_Samara 1078787
coverage: CHG 1134595
coverage: Russia_Karelia_HG 998911
coverage: Iberia_ElMiron 620670
coverage: Belgium_GoyetQ116_1_published 757417
coverage: Iran_Ganj_Dareh_N_published 177860
coverage: Jordan_PPNB_published 154191
coverage: Russia_Kostenki14.SG 1035815
coverage: Russia_MA1_HG.SG 796065
coverage: Morocco_Iberomaurusian 1087735
coverage: Ethiopia_4500BP.SG 1134612
coverage: Israel_Raqefet_M_Natufian 497226
coverage: Ust_Ishim_HG_published.DG 1132844
coverage: Czech_Vestonice16 724473
coverage: Italy_Villabruna 874116
dof (jackknife): 606.587
numsnps used: 128243
codimension 1
f4info:
f4rank: 2 dof: 11 chisq: 15.256 tail: 0.171061424 dofdiff: 13 chisqdiff: -15.256 taildiff: 1
B:
scale 1.000 1.000
Russia_Karelia_HG 1.530 -1.636
Iberia_ElMiron 1.568 0.866
Belgium_GoyetQ116_1_published 0.419 0.179
Iran_Ganj_Dareh_N_published 0.210 -0.550
Jordan_PPNB_published -1.134 1.587
Russia_Kostenki14.SG 0.207 0.273
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.536 -0.825
Morocco_Iberomaurusian -0.633 1.045
Ethiopia_4500BP.SG 0.344 0.017
Israel_Raqefet_M_Natufian -0.837 1.735
Ust_Ishim_HG_published.DG 0.183 -0.651
Czech_Vestonice16 0.378 0.408
Italy_Villabruna 2.229 1.129
A:
scale 4482.077 9211.679
WHG 1.708 1.407
Anatolia_N -0.236 0.371
Russia_Yamnaya_Samara 0.161 -0.940


full rank
f4info:
f4rank: 3 dof: 0 chisq: 0.000 tail: 1 dofdiff: 11 chisqdiff: 15.256 taildiff: 0.171061424
B:
scale 1.000 1.000 1.000
Russia_Karelia_HG 0.687 0.368 -1.948
Iberia_ElMiron 1.883 0.291 0.340
Belgium_GoyetQ116_1_published 0.863 -1.760 0.236
Iran_Ganj_Dareh_N_published -0.393 1.688 -0.773
Jordan_PPNB_published -0.557 0.910 1.621
Russia_Kostenki14.SG 0.115 1.065 0.046
Russia_MA1_HG.SG 0.124 -0.038 -0.934
Morocco_Iberomaurusian -0.533 1.524 0.929
Ethiopia_4500BP.SG 0.340 -0.328 0.076
Israel_Raqefet_M_Natufian -0.083 -0.038 1.863
Ust_Ishim_HG_published.DG 0.039 -0.869 -0.573
Czech_Vestonice16 0.405 0.997 0.199
Italy_Villabruna 2.678 0.832 0.476
A:
scale 4451.250 10162.219 13484.311
WHG 1.725 -0.306 0.366
Anatolia_N -0.110 -1.082 1.448
Russia_Yamnaya_Samara 0.103 -1.318 -0.877


best coefficients: 0.055 0.619 0.326
Jackknife mean: 0.061078019 0.619023074 0.319898907
std. errors: 0.123 0.240 0.303

error covariance (* 1000000)
15035 9456 -24491
9456 57748 -67204
-24491 -67204 91695


summ: Rome_IA 3 0.171061 0.061 0.619 0.320 15035 9456 -24491 57748 -67204 91695

fixed pat wt dof chisq tail prob
000 0 11 15.256 0.171061 0.055 0.619 0.326
001 1 12 17.184 0.142811 0.134 0.866 -0.000
010 1 12 24.140 0.0194695 -0.043 0.000 1.043 infeasible
100 1 12 15.431 0.218709 0.000 0.600 0.400
011 2 13 74.487 1.1862e-10 1.000 -0.000 -0.000
101 2 13 19.445 0.10994 0.000 1.000 -0.000
110 2 13 24.179 0.0295238 0.000 -0.000 1.000
best pat: 000 0.171061 - -
best pat: 100 0.218709 chi(nested): 0.175 p-value for nested model: 0.675991
best pat: 101 0.10994 chi(nested): 4.014 p-value for nested model: 0.0451239

## end of run

Unfortunately it's only one sample so I can't run f3 type stats apparently.

[dududud]

When the samples will be available in PLINK I can extract all and put in Google Drive and someone with much free time could upload them to Gedmatch...

I have the time. Send send send.

[dududud]

How % of Steppe for R116?

[Peterski]

Post his eurogene 15.

I will later.

BTW, he is modelled as French in study's Table S28, just like that similarity map shows:

https://i.imgur.com/wKAr0O3.png


How % of Steppe for R116?

I will check.

[dududud]

I will later.

BTW, he is modelled as French in study's Table S28, just like that similarity map shows:

https://i.imgur.com/wKAr0O3.png



I will check, probably over 40%.

i'm logistic on Anthrogenica lol. I'm shifted toward this Modelised frog.

[Peterski]

How % of Steppe for R116?

Actually about 30% probably:

[1] "distance%=1.2165"

R116

Anatolia_N - 51.2%
Russia_Yamnaya_Samara - 30.6%
Luxembourg_Loschbour - 18.2%

[Leto]

So what can we say about the Romans? Who were they most similar to in terms of modern populations?

[Calpurnius]

Ok, I was being retarded, I can run f3 stats, I wanted to use Mota as outgroup but forgot it's just one sample. Here is a basic outgroup f3 stat output with some populations using Mbuti as outgroup, the higher the f3, the higher the overall relationship, basically.
It seems the two highest are Bergamo and French, French slightly higher but also has more overlapping SNPs I guess so they are all up there really. This is R851 btw, maybe I can get R1021 too.
https://i.imgur.com/15wTSdW.png

[Arch Hades]

To people who have access to the study

Umm, is there formal mixture analysis of the Iron Age-Republican Romans? How much EMBA steppe ancestry do they have?

[Lucas]

To people who have access to the study

Umm, is there formal mixture analysis of the Iron Age-Republican Romans? How much EMBA steppe ancestry do they have?

Here is link to full study https://sci-hub.se/10.1126/science.aay6826

[sean]

Honestly I don't see too many 'Nordicists' here. Much more Southern Europeans constantly mentioning them. Maybe you guys do like being associated with Ayrabs and stuff, don't know why though.

Because they are seen as such in reality.

https://i.imgur.com/Hn5kFz3.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/E3zZqzd.png
https://i.imgur.com/diE0rd1.png

[Leto]

Because they are seen as such in reality.

The vast majority of white patriots and social conservatives are not retarded Neo-Nazis the media loves to portray them as.

[Samnium]

Because they are seen as such in reality.

https://i.imgur.com/Hn5kFz3.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/E3zZqzd.png
https://i.imgur.com/diE0rd1.pngMaybe by idiots, nordicists and those who reach barely the 70 IQ score.

[Leto]

By the way, some Greeks have Pontic, Anatolian roots and may not even plot in mainland Greece but closer to Cyprus and West Asia. And Portugal has a significant amount of Africans and mixed Africans as far as I know. Nowadays being from Europe doesn't automatically mean being fully European by blood.

[Samnium]

Average people are not anthrotards dude.

In France I haven't seen that in real life (ethnic French that treat spaniards for arabs), same for Switzerland honestly.

I don't deny that it can exist but as I've said these are probably idiots.

[Samnium]

By the way, some Greeks have Pontic, Anatolian roots and may not even plot in mainland Greece but closer to Cyprus and West Asia. And Portugal has a significant amount of Africans and mixed Africans as far as I know. Nowadays being from Europe doesn't automatically mean being fully European by blood.

It's largely exagerated for Portuguese. Portuguese have significant NA admixture but it's likely ancient (and not necessarily from arab era). SSA is usually low so definitely no.

[Leto]

It's largely exagerated for Portuguese. Portuguese have significant NA admixture but it's likely ancient (and not necessarily from arab era). SSA is usually low so definitely no.
I don't mean ancient admixture, I mean immigrants from Angola, Cape Verde and their children. User Pedro Ruben and other people told me they are not uncommon.

[Samnium]

I don't mean ancient admixture, I mean immigrants from Angola, Cape Verde and their children. User Pedro Ruben and other people told me they are not uncommon.Ah. Yes in that case of course. I agree.

Genetic must prevails over nationality and this piece of paper.

[andre]

Here is link to full study https://sci-hub.se/10.1126/science.aay6826
I can’t open the link; maybe it’s because i’m using the smartphone and not the computer?

[Karol Klačansky]

the imperial samples are from plebes? what kind of cemetery did they take these samples from? how do we not know that the ruling class of Romans during the imperial time were not the same as the republican era romans?

[Peterski]

Okay guys the samples are now available in VCF and will be added to Global25 soon.

I will also upload some to GEDmatch soon.

[Arch Hades]

Okay guys the samples are now available in VCF and will be added to Global25 soon.

I will also upload some to GEDmatch soon.

You should do Globe13 and Globe12

[Samnium]

the imperial samples are from plebes? what kind of cemetery did they take these samples from? how do we not know that the ruling class of Romans during the imperial time were not the same as the republican era romans?

That's what I said on Anthrogenica. We don't have the social status, and that's very disappointing.

[Samnium]

Okay guys the samples are now available in VCF and will be added to Global25 soon.

I will also upload some to GEDmatch soon.

Do you have the links ?

[Karol Klačansky]

That's what I said on Anthrogenica. We don't have the social status, and that's very disappointing.That's literally absurd, it really is like going to modern day London and just testing the dna of the first 50 people you see.

[Rob1992]

Modern italians have more steppe ancestry than iron ages italics.

[Token]

What shifted Central Italians north might be a combination of both Italic and Germanic ancestry. The rural repopulation model don't work.

[1] "distance%=2.0255"
ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity

ITA_Rome_Imperial,58.8
ITA_Rome_Latini_IA,41.2

[1] "distance%=1.9135"
ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity

ITA_Rome_Imperial,73.8
England_Saxon,26.2

[1] "distance%=0.8918"
ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity

ITA_Rome_Imperial,61
ITA_Rome_Latini_IA,23.4
England_Saxon,15.6

[Karol Klačansky]

What shifted Central Italians north might be a combination of both Italic and Germanic ancestry. The rural repopulation model don't work.


What about modern North Italians?

[Token]

Renaissance shift looks distinctly Germanic, probably intra Holy Roman Empire movements.

[1] "distance%=0.6631"
ITA_Rome_MA

ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity,89.2
England_Saxon,10.8


What about modern North Italians?

I don't know, that study didn't included any North Italian sample.

[savvas]

Source: Michalis Moriopoulos (Anthrogenica)

https://i.imgur.com/orf9sjr.png

The Proto-Villanovian (Proto-Italic??) is closest to Italians from Lombardy (and closer to Greeks-Albanians-Tuscans-Umbrians than to Iberians);
The Villanovan (Proto-Etruscan) is closest to Spaniards from La Rioja (but closer to Corsicans than to Non-La Rioja and Non-Castellon Spaniards);
Etruscan RMPR473 is closest to Italians from Lombardy (but closer to some Spaniards before other North Italians);
Etruscan RMPR474b is closest to Italians from Veneto (but closer to Balearic Spaniards before some other North Italians);
Latin RMPR1016 is closest to Spaniards from La Rioja (but closer to Corsicans before other Spaniards);
Latin RMPR851 is closest to Catalonians (but closer to Italians from Bergamo before some other Spaniards);
Latin RMPR1021 is closest to Catalonians (but closer to Italians from Lombardy before other Non-Catalonian and Non-Valencian Spaniards);
Prenestinian RMPR435b (Latin?) is closest to Southern French.
3 outliers present (one Etruscan, one Latin, one Prenestinian).

[Lucas]

I'm checking in G25 Late Antiquity samples (using whole ancient spreadsheet without ITA Late Antiquity and ITA_MA and ITa_Renessaince).

without less than 1%

Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR30
Distance: 0.1412% / 0.00141163

13.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial continuation
12.0 Levant_ISR_C
9.0 GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
6.8 GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res
6.8 HRV_EBA
5.0 TKM_Gonur1_BA
4.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia
4.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
4.4 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
3.4 HUN_ALPc_Tiszadob_MN
3.0 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
2.4 Levant_PPNB
2.4 RUS_North_Caucasus_MBA
2.0 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
2.0 ITA_Collegno_MA
2.0 Iberia_N
1.6 DEU_MA
1.6 HRV_Cardial_N
1.6 HRV_Sopot_MN
1.4 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res
1.0 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria


Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR31
Distance: 1.0607% / 0.01060681

42.0 England_Saxon very Germanic
24.2 BGR_MP_N
8.2 England_CA_EBA
6.4 HUN_MA_Szolad
5.6 UKR_Meso
4.6 DEU_MA_ACD
4.4 Corded_Ware_DEU
2.2 Levant_ISR_C
0.8 UKR_N
0.6 HUN_Baden_LCA
0.4 Baltic_LTU_Narva
0.2 AUT_LBK_N
0.2 Levant_Natufian
0.2 POL_Globular_Amphora


Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR32
Distance: 0.3297% / 0.00329676

16.6 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
8.8 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
7.6 RUS_North_Caucasus_MBA
6.6 ARM_LBA
5.8 Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_IA2
5.2 Levant_PPNB
4.6 IND_Roopkund_B
4.4 HUN_Balaton_Lasinja_CA
4.4 ITA_Rome_Imperial
4.0 GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
4.0 Levant_LBN_MA_NE
3.8 DEU_MA_o
3.2 UKR_Srubnaya_MLBA
2.8 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria
2.8 MAR_EN
2.6 HUN_Tiszapolgar_ECA
2.4 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
2.2 Levant_ISR_C
1.6 DEU_Welzin_BA
1.4 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
1.0 RUS_Afanasievo


Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR33
Distance: 0.5028% / 0.00502844
Aggregated
15.0 GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res
12.6 HUN_MA_Szolad
10.6 Scythian_HUN
10.2 Bell_Beaker_CHE
6.0 GRC_Peloponnese_N
5.8 Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res
5.6 England_MBA
4.6 DEU_MA
3.6 HUN_Vinca_MN
3.2 HUN_Sopot_LN
3.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial
3.2 Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE
2.8 Corded_Ware_Baltic_early
2.2 Levant_LBN_Roman
2.0 England_Saxon
1.8 BGR_MP_N
1.8 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
1.6 Iberia_Southeast_MLN
1.0 IND_Roopkund_A


Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR34
Distance: 0.2661% / 0.00266056

31.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial - continuation
10.8 DEU_MA_o
7.2 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
6.4 Levant_ISR_C
6.2 Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_IA1
6.0 RUS_Saltovo-Mayaki_low_res
5.4 GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
5.2 UKR_Trypillia
4.0 ARM_LBA
3.0 HRV_Vucedol
1.8 HUN_MA_Szolad_o1
1.8 TZA_Zanzibar_Euro_outlier
1.2 Levant_LBN_Roman
1.0 DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier2
1.0 EGY_Hellenistic
1.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Talin


Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR35
Distance: 0.0493% / 0.00049326

10.6 HUN_Starcevo_N
10.0 Anatolia_Isparta_EBA
7.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial
7.0 ARM_LBA
6.4 HUN_LCA
5.6 Levant_ISR_C
5.4 DEU_Welzin_BA
5.0 HRV_Sopot_MN
4.4 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
4.0 Kura-Araxes_RUS_Velikent
3.8 Levant_LBN_MA_NE
3.0 Levant_PPNB
2.4 Baltic_LVA_BA
2.2 Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_IA2
2.0 TKM_Geoksyur_En
1.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
1.6 DNK_BA
1.6 England_CA_EBA
1.6 HUN_MA_Szolad
1.4 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
1.2 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
1.2 MAR_Iberomaurusian
1.0 Anatolia_IA_low_res
1.0 ITA_Ripabianca_di_Monterado_N
1.0 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya


Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR36
Distance: 0.5123% / 0.00512305

18.4 England_Roman
13.2 GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res
10.6 Levant_ISR_C
9.6 HUN_Starcevo_N
7.4 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
7.0 RUS_Alan_MA
6.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial
5.8 SWE_LN_low_res
3.6 ITA_Collegno_MA
3.4 Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_LBA
3.2 DEU_MA_o
2.8 Corded_Ware_DEU
2.4 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
2.0 Bell_Beaker_NLD
1.4 England_MBA
1.2 DEU_Lech_EBA
1.2 Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_IA1
0.4 ZAF_2100BP
0.2 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul


Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR104
Distance: 0.9168% / 0.00916786
Aggregated
31.0 HRV_Starcevo_LN
30.8 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
10.8 DEU_LBK_N
9.2 Iberia_Southeast_CA
6.2 Iberia_Southeast_MLN
5.8 Iberia_East_IA
1.6 England_N
1.4 MAR_Iberomaurusian
0.8 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
0.8 TON_2500BP
0.6 Iberia_Northeast_MLN
0.6 SWE_LN_low_res
0.2 VNM_BA_DongSonCulture
0.2 VUT_2900BP_all


Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR105
Distance: 0.3287% / 0.00328700
Aggregated
14.8 ITA_Boville_Ernica_Latini_IA
13.6 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
12.6 HUN_Tiszapolgar_ECA
8.8 DEU_MA
6.6 Bell_Beaker_ITA
6.0 Levant_LBN_MA_NE
5.4 Baltic_LVA_BA
3.8 Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE
3.8 Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_LBA
3.6 ITA_Collegno_MA
3.6 Iberia_Southeast_BA
2.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
2.6 HUN_ALPc_Tiszadob_MN
1.8 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
1.6 ARM_MBA
1.6 MAR_Iberomaurusian
1.6 UKR_Dereivka_I_En2
1.2 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
1.0 HUN_MA_Szolad


Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR106
Distance: 0.6201% / 0.00620103

25.0 Bell_Beaker_Scotland
17.8 HUN_MA_Szolad
17.4 GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res
6.8 Corded_Ware_DEU
4.8 DNK_LN
4.6 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria
4.4 DNK_BA
4.2 ITA_Remedello_BA
3.8 Corded_Ware_DEU_o
2.8 CZE_Starounetice_EBA
2.0 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
1.4 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale


Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR107
Distance: 0.7571% / 0.00757108

17.2 SRB_N
15.4 ITA_Rome_Imperial
11.8 HUN_MA_Szolad
11.6 Levant_ISR_C
10.0 HUN_Protoboleraz_LCA
10.0 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
6.8 Corded_Ware_DEU
3.2 Corded_Ware_Baltic_early
2.2 HUN_Sopot_LN
2.2 Scythian_UKR
1.8 Levant_PPNB
1.6 Baltic_LVA_BA
1.4 MAR_EN
1.0 IND_Roopkund_A


Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR108

19.0 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria
16.2 England_IA
13.0 HUN_Tiszapolgar_ECA
7.6 DEU_MA_ACD
7.2 Levant_ISR_C
7.0 DEU_LBK_N
6.2 GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res
5.6 RUS_Afanasievo
5.2 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
2.8 Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res
2.8 DNK_BA
2.4 Corded_Ware_Proto-Unetice_POL
1.4 HUN_MA_Szolad
1.0 ITA_Collegno_MA
1.0 RUS_Alan_MA

[Lucas]

Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR109
Distance: 0.9408% / 0.00940831

18.8 Bell_Beaker_FRA
14.2 England_Saxon
10.4 ITA_Collegno_MA
9.4 DEU_LBK_N
8.4 GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res
5.6 GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
5.2 GRC_Mycenaean
5.2 SRB_N
5.0 Bell_Beaker_England
4.6 DEU_MA
4.2 Iberia_East_IA
2.2 RUS_Saltovo-Mayaki_low_res
1.8 BGR_C
1.0 TZN_PN



Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR110
Distance: 0.6487% / 0.00648737

16.4 FIN_Levanluhta_IA_o
16.2 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna - Gothic?:)
9.4 MKD_N
8.6 Anatolia_Kumtepe_N
7.2 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
5.2 Anatolia_Ovaoren_EBA
4.8 DEU_LBK_N
4.2 England_MBA
3.8 Bell_Beaker_POL
3.0 RUS_Kubano-Tersk
2.8 Levant_ISR_C
2.4 RUS_Afanasievo
2.2 HRV_Sopot_MN
2.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
2.0 HRV_Impressa_N
1.8 IND_Roopkund_A
1.6 England_N
1.6 HUN_Lengyel_LN
1.4 Baltic_LVA_BA
1.2 HUN_Koros_N


Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR117
Distance: 0.6447% / 0.00644748

20.8 GRC_Peloponnese_N
13.8 GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res
13.4 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna Gothic?
6.2 TKM_Geoksyur_En
5.6 Levant_LBN_MA_NE
4.8 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res
4.8 Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_IA1
4.4 UKR_Srubnaya_MLBA
3.6 TKM_Gonur1_BA
3.6 GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
3.6 Levant_ISR_C
2.4 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
2.4 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
2.2 KEN_Pastoral_N_o
1.8 DEU_Welzin_BA
1.6 Corded_Ware_DEU
1.0 HUN_LBK_MN
1.0 Scythian_HUN



Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR118
Distance: 0.5308% / 0.00530773
Aggregated
22.4 GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res
15.4 BGR_MP_N
12.6 ITA_Rome_Imperial
9.0 UKR_Trypillia
8.8 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
4.2 Corded_Ware_DEU
3.6 TKM_Gonur1_BA
2.8 Anatolia_Kumtepe_N
2.6 England_CA_EBA
2.6 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
2.0 MAR_EN
2.0 RUS_Afanasievo
2.0 SWE_BA
1.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
1.4 DEU_BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN
1.4 RUS_Saltovo-Mayaki_low_res
1.2 Bell_Beaker_England


Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR120
Distance: 0.7005% / 0.00700475

16.0 ITA_Collegno_MA
11.6 Corded_Ware_Proto-Unetice_POL
10.6 Levant_ISR_C
10.4 ITA_Rome_Imperial
10.0 Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_IA1
6.6 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res
4.8 Bell_Beaker_ITA
4.8 HRV_Sopot_MN
4.6 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
4.0 Corded_Ware_DEU
3.4 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria
3.2 Scythian_MDA
2.8 HUN_ALPc_Tiszadob_MN
2.0 DEU_MA_ACD
1.6 ARM_Areni_C
1.6 HUN_Tisza_LN

[Lucas]

Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR121
Distance: 0.82

14.8 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res
12.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
12.4 UKR_Srubnaya_MLBA
12.0 HRV_Sopot_MN
9.4 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
7.6 ITA_Etruscan
5.6 GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res
5.4 TKM_Geoksyur_En
5.0 DEU_MA_ACD
3.8 KAZ_Kairan_MLBA
3.6 DNK_BA
2.8 HUN_Tisza_LN
1.4 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
1.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia
1.0 TKM_Gonur1_BA


Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR122
Distance: 0.2342% / 0.00234215
Aggregated
13.0 HUN_Tisza_LN
10.8 Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_IA1
9.6 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA_o
7.2 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res
5.6 SRB_N
5.4 Bell_Beaker_England
4.6 GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
4.4 Anatolia_Kumtepe_N
4.4 ITA_Rome_Imperial
4.2 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
4.0 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria
3.6 HUN_MA_Szolad_o1
3.6 Ostrogothic_Crimea_ACD
2.6 HUN_Tiszapolgar_ECA
2.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
2.2 ARM_MBA
2.2 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
2.0 MAR_Iberomaurusian
1.8 Canary_Islands_Guanche
1.0 Anatolia_Kumtepe_N_low_res
1.0 Corded_Ware_DEU


Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR130
Distance: 0.5568% / 0.00556778

15.8 Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_LBA
8.0 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
7.6 HRV_Sopot_MN
7.0 Anatolia_Barcin_C
7.0 EGY_Hellenistic
5.8 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_C
5.6 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
5.6 Scotland_N
5.4 Levant_LBN_MA_NE
5.2 Iberia_Southeast_MLN
4.4 DEU_LBK_N
4.0 Levant_ISR_C
3.2 ARM_LBA
3.2 GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res
2.6 Scotland_CA_EBA
2.2 Levant_LBN_Roman
1.8 TKM_Gonur1_BA
1.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
1.4 ITA_Rome_Imperial


Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR133
Distance: 0.8223% / 0.00822264
Aggregated
15.4 DEU_LBK_N
12.6 Levant_LBN_MA_NE
11.4 Anatolia_Isparta_EBA
11.2 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
8.4 TKM_Gonur1_BA
7.0 Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_IA1
6.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
5.2 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
4.4 HUN_Lengyel_LN
2.8 IRN_Seh_Gabi_LN
2.6 GRC_Peloponnese_N
2.6 USA_colonial_period
2.4 Corded_Ware_DEU
2.4 DEU_Lech_EBA
1.4 RUS_Kubano-Tersk
1.2 Canary_Islands_Guanche


Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR134
Distance: 0.6859% / 0.00685920
Aggregated
15.0 Levant_LBN_Roman
13.2 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
10.4 Levant_ISR_C
9.8 Iberia_Southeast_c.5-8CE
9.4 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
5.8 IND_Roopkund_B
4.6 CZE_N
4.2 GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res
4.0 ITA_Collegno_MA
3.4 ARM_LBA
3.4 UKR_Srubnaya_MLBA
3.0 Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES
2.6 Anatolia_Kumtepe_N_low_res
2.6 DEU_Welzin_BA
2.6 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
2.2 Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_LBA
1.6 RUS_Saltovo-Mayaki_low_res
1.0 GRC_Minoan_Lassithi



Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR136
Distance: 0.0242% / 0.00024231

10.6 ITA_Rome_Imperial
6.2 Levant_ISR_C
6.0 HUN_MA_Szolad
5.4 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
4.8 Anatolia_Kumtepe_N
4.0 DEU_LBK_N
4.0 CZE_N
3.6 Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_IA1
3.4 Levant_LBN_MA_NE
3.0 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
3.0 Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_LBA
2.8 GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res
2.6 Anatolia_Ovaoren_EBA
2.6 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
2.4 RUS_Alan_MA
2.0 AUT_LBK_N
2.0 Baltic_EST_BA
2.0 ITA_Collegno_MA
2.0 Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_IA2
1.6 Levant_Canaanite_MBA
1.4 IND_Roopkund_B_o
1.4 IRN_Belt_Cave_Meso_low_res
1.4 RUS_Maykop_Late
1.4 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
1.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
1.2 Anatolia_Kumtepe_N_low_res
1.2 DEU_MA_ACD
1.2 DEU_Welzin_BA
1.2 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
1.2 RUS_Afanasievo
1.2 TKM_Parkhai_LBA
1.0 ARM_LBA



Target: ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity:RMPR137
Distance: 0.5608% / 0.00560827

10.0 Anatolia_Isparta_EBA
9.4 DEU_LBK_N
8.8 GRC_Peloponnese_N
8.6 Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_IA1
7.8 RUS_Alan_MA
7.0 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
6.2 Iberia_Southeast_c.5-8CE
6.0 DEU_MA_o
5.2 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
4.8 Anatolia_IA_low_res
4.4 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
3.4 Anatolia_Ovaoren_EBA
3.2 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
3.2 TKM_Geoksyur_En
2.4 GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res
2.2 HRV_Sopot_MN
1.8 RUS_Petrovka_MLBA
1.4 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
1.2 Levant_PPNB

[Lucas]

Situation is clear, in Late antiquity we see substantial continuation from Imperial Era, not from Republican or IA.

Now medieval...

[Lucas]

Now Late Antiquity added.


Target: ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR52
Distance: 0.7387% / 0.00738669

18.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
11.0 ITA_Rome_Imperial
8.6 Iberia_Northeast_MLN
8.6 Levant_LBN_MA_NE
8.2 HUN_Vinca_MN
7.6 Iberia_Southeast_c.5-8CE
7.0 TKM_Geoksyur_En
6.0 RUS_Srubnaya_Alakul_MLBA
5.4 HUN_ALPc_Tiszadob_MN
4.2 RUS_Potapovka_MLBA_o
3.0 ARM_LBA
2.4 Anatolia_Kumtepe_N_low_res
2.2 DEU_MA_o
2.2 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
1.2 HUN_LBK_MN


Target: ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR53
Distance: 0.2520% / 0.00251997

18.2 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
13.0 Levant_ISR_C
10.2 ARM_Areni_C
9.8 DEU_MA_o
9.4 Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_IA1
6.0 Corded_Ware_DEU
5.4 DEU_MA
4.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial
3.2 HUN_MA_Szolad
2.6 TKM_Gonur1_BA
2.4 Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_LBA
1.8 ITA_Collegno_MA
1.4 HUN_ALPc_Tiszadob_MN
1.2 Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res
1.2 Iberia_N
1.2 SRB_N
1.0 UKR_Srubnaya_MLBA


Target: ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR54
Distance: 0.3775% / 0.00377548
Aggregated
12.8 Levant_ISR_C
11.6 RUS_Alan_MA
10.0 GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res
9.4 ITA_Collegno_MA
8.4 HUN_Sopot_LN
7.8 HUN_MA_Szolad
7.6 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
6.8 DEU_MA_ACD
5.6 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
3.2 ARM_LBA
3.0 UKR_Trypillia
2.8 HUN_Tiszapolgar_ECA
2.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial
2.0 Levant_LBN_MA_NE
1.8 Iberia_Central_CA
1.4 Levant_Canaanite_MBA
1.0 RUS_Afanasievo


Target: ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR56
Distance: 0.8057% / 0.00805721
Aggregated
18.6 Levant_LBN_MA_NE
16.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
14.8 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
13.2 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
7.0 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res
5.2 DEU_MA_o
5.0 Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_LBA
4.4 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
3.6 Yamnaya_UKR
3.4 ITA_Rome_Imperial
2.6 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
1.8 DEU_MA
1.6 GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res


Target: ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR57
Distance: 0.0711% / 0.00071148

12.6 ITA_Rome_Imperial
10.4 GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res
8.2 HUN_ALPc_Tiszadob_MN
7.2 DEU_MA
6.8 HUN_Tisza_LN
5.0 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
4.6 DEU_BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN
4.2 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
3.2 RUS_North_Caucasus_MBA
3.2 TKM_Parkhai_En
2.8 Corded_Ware_DEU
2.6 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
2.4 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C
2.4 Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_IA1
2.4 Levant_ISR_C
2.0 Levant_LBN_Roman
2.0 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
1.6 IND_Roopkund_B
1.6 Levant_LBN_MA_NE
1.2 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
1.2 DEU_LBK_N
1.2 DEU_MA_o
1.2 UZB_Dzharkutan2_BA
1.0 Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE
1.0 Iberia_Southeast_CA
1.0 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA



Target: ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR58
Distance: 0.2934% / 0.00293423
Aggregated
15.8 ITA_Rome_Imperial
9.8 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
8.6 EGY_Late_Period
7.8 GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res
6.8 Levant_ISR_C
6.0 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
5.4 DEU_MA_o
5.4 Iberia_Central_BA
4.6 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
4.0 RUS_Alan_MA
3.4 Anatolia_Ovaoren_EBA
3.2 Wales_CA_EBA
2.6 England_MBA
2.6 GEO_CHG
2.2 DEU_LBK_N
2.2 ITA_Collegno_MA
1.6 AUT_LBK_N
1.6 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
1.6 Levant_LBN_MA_NE
1.0 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale


Target: ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR59
Distance: 0.4572% / 0.00457210
Aggregated
23.0 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
15.0 HUN_ALPc_Tiszadob_MN
8.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
6.4 DEU_MA
6.2 Levant_LBN_MA_NE
4.8 DEU_Welzin_BA
4.6 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
4.2 Baltic_LTU_BA
3.6 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
3.6 Levant_ISR_C
3.4 Anatolia_Kumtepe_N_low_res
3.4 DEU_BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN
2.6 ARM_Areni_C
2.2 Corded_Ware_DEU
1.6 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
1.4 HUN_Tiszapolgar_ECA
1.4 UKR_Dereivka_I_En2
1.0 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
1.0 Scotland_N


Target: ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR60
Distance: 0.4509% / 0.00450917
Aggregated
20.6 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res
13.8 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
13.0 DEU_MA
9.2 GRC_Peloponnese_N
8.4 HUN_Starcevo_N
7.4 Levant_ISR_C
6.8 TKM_Gonur1_BA
3.4 ITA_Rome_Imperial
3.0 Baltic_LVA_BA
2.6 Levant_PPNC
2.4 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA
2.0 Baltic_LTU_BA
2.0 ITA_Collegno_MA
1.2 ARM_LBA
1.2 EGY_Hellenistic


Target: ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR61
Distance: 0.1862% / 0.00186164
Aggregated
12.0 Baltic_EST_BA
10.8 Bell_Beaker_England
10.2 BGR_Varna_En3
9.0 ITA_Etruscan first time Etruscan
8.0 HUN_ALPc_Szakalhat_MN
7.0 HUN_MA_Szolad
6.6 SRB_N
6.0 Levant_ISR_C
3.6 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res
3.6 Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res
3.6 Corded_Ware_Baltic_early
3.6 HRV_Sopot_MN
3.2 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
3.2 UKR_N_o
1.8 HUN_Starcevo_N
1.6 BGR_MP_N
1.4 IND_Roopkund_A


Target: ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR62
Distance: 0.8866% / 0.00886650
Aggregated
16.6 DEU_LBK_N
15.4 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine gothic
12.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
11.4 England_CA_EBA
10.2 ITA_Collegno_MA
9.4 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria
5.6 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
4.6 HUN_MA_Szolad
2.2 Baltic_EST_MA
2.0 Baltic_EST_BA
1.8 GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res
1.4 Levant_ISR_C
1.4 RUS_Kubano-Tersk
1.2 RUS_Afanasievo
1.0 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
1.0 UKR_Trypillia


Target: ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR63
Distance: 0.4507% / 0.00450730
Aggregated
11.0 DEU_Welzin_BA
9.6 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
9.4 ITA_Ripabianca_di_Monterado_N
9.0 HUN_MA_Szolad
7.8 Scotland_LBA
6.8 DEU_LBK_N
6.8 HUN_Lengyel_LN
6.4 Bell_Beaker_England_EBA
5.0 Corded_Ware_DEU
3.8 England_N
3.4 MAR_EN
3.4 NLD_BA
3.0 Bell_Beaker_England
2.6 Iberia_Southwest_CA
2.4 BGR_MP_N
2.4 Iberia_Central_CA
2.0 POL_Globular_Amphora
1.2 HUN_Starcevo_N
1.0 Levant_ISR_C


Target: ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR64
Distance: 0.1924% / 0.00192375
Aggregated
10.8 HUN_Starcevo_N
10.6 Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_IA1
10.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan
8.4 GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res
5.4 Corded_Ware_DEU
5.2 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
5.0 Levant_ISR_C
4.8 EGY_Late_Period
4.2 KAZ_Mys_MLBA
3.6 TKM_Gonur1_BA
3.4 Iberia_East_IA
3.2 Levant_PPNC
2.6 Bell_Beaker_England_EBA
2.6 RUS_Alan_MA
2.4 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
2.2 Levant_LBN_MA_NE
2.0 Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_LBA
1.6 BGR_MP_N
1.2 Iberia_Southeast_c.3-4CE
1.2 SRB_N
1.0 IRN_Seh_Gabi_C

Target: ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
Distance: 0.2635% / 0.00263509
Aggregated
17.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
11.6 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan
11.2 Levant_Canaanite_MBA
9.0 Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_IA1
8.0 SVK_Poprad_MA
7.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
4.8 KAZ_Kairan_MLBA
4.4 HUN_Lengyel_LN
3.6 Corded_Ware_DEU
3.0 TKM_Gonur3_BA
2.6 HUN_LCA
2.4 Levant_JOR_EBA
2.4 Levant_PPNB
1.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia
1.6 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
1.4 Iberia_Southeast_c.3-4CE
1.4 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
1.2 GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res

[Lucas]

Target: ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR1283
Distance: 0.4272% / 0.00427232
Aggregated
16.6 DEU_MA
12.6 Levant_LBN_Roman
10.4 DEU_MA_o
7.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial
6.0 Iberia_Central_CA
5.4 HUN_Sopot_LN
4.8 Baltic_EST_MA
4.4 AUT_LBK_N
4.0 Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE
4.0 Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE
4.0 RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya
2.8 GRC_Minoan_Lassithi
2.8 SRB_N
2.4 RUS_Darkveti-Meshoko_En
1.8 GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res
1.8 Iberia_Central_BA
1.8 RUS_Alan_MA
1.6 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
1.4 Anatolia_Ovaoren_EBA
1.0 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C



Target: ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR1285
Distance: 0.5117% / 0.00511668
Aggregated
14.8 DEU_LBK_N
10.6 HRV_Sopot_MN
10.4 ITA_Rome_Imperial
10.0 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
6.4 Levant_ISR_C
5.8 England_MBA
5.6 ITA_Collegno_MA
5.4 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
5.2 DEU_BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN
4.2 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
3.6 Levant_LBN_MA_NE
2.4 HUN_ALPc_Szatmar_MN
2.0 DEU_MA
1.8 Anatolia_Kumtepe_N
1.8 RUS_Saltovo-Mayaki_low_res
1.4 ARM_LBA
1.4 EGY_Hellenistic
1.4 Scotland_N
1.2 CZE_N
1.2 HUN_MA_Szolad


Target: ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR1286
Distance: 0.8959% / 0.00895942
Aggregated
24.6 ITA_Collegno_MA
10.6 GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res
10.2 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
10.2 England_MBA
8.8 DEU_MA
8.6 England_Saxon
7.4 Bell_Beaker_England
5.6 BGR_MP_N
3.4 Baltic_EST_MA
2.8 HUN_MA_Szolad
2.8 RUS_Afanasievo
1.6 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
1.2 Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale
1.2 Bell_Beaker_NLD
0.8 Corded_Ware_Baltic_early
0.2 MNG_XiongNu


Target: ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR1287
Distance: 0.3951% / 0.00395121
Aggregated
14.4 ITA_Rome_Imperial
12.4 UKR_N_o
10.8 HUN_MA_Szolad
8.6 DEU_MA
7.8 Corded_Ware_DEU
7.2 HUN_MA_Szolad_o1
7.0 GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res
6.2 DEU_LBK_N
5.4 HUN_Tisza_LN
4.0 ITA_Collegno_MA
2.4 Canary_Islands_Guanche
2.4 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
2.2 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
2.0 Levant_LBN_MA_NE
1.2 Anatolia_Barcin_C
1.2 Iberia_Southeast_c.5-8CE
1.0 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna
1.0 TKM_Gonur1_BA
0.8 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kalavan
0.8 RUS_Alan_MA
0.8 SVK_Poprad_MA
0.4 VNM_BA_DongSonCulture


Target: ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR1288
Distance: 0.4584% / 0.00458408
Aggregated
18.0 HUN_MA_Szolad
17.2 DEU_MA_ACD
13.6 Baltic_EST_MA
8.6 BGR_MP_N
8.2 DEU_MA
7.8 England_Saxon
7.0 GRC_Minoan_Odigitria_low_res
3.4 ITA_Collegno_MA
3.2 Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res
2.6 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res
2.6 HUN_Tiszapolgar_ECA
1.6 KEN_Pastoral_N
1.2 DNK_BA
1.2 Iberia_Central_CA
1.0 HUN_Sopot_LN


Target: ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR1289
Distance: 0.6014% / 0.00601415

15.4 Bell_Beaker_Iberia
11.0 Corded_Ware_DEU
11.0 England_Saxon
9.2 England_MBA
8.4 Iberia_Southeast_MLN
6.8 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
6.6 HUN_MA_Szolad
4.8 Bell_Beaker_England
4.4 Anatolia_Kumtepe_N
4.2 Iberia_East_IA
3.6 Iberia_Central_CA
3.4 Iberia_Southeast_c.10-16CE
3.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
2.4 HUN_Lengyel_LN
1.2 ITA_Collegno_MA_o1
1.0 RUS_Afanasievo


Target: ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR1290
Distance: 0.5353% / 0.00535307
Aggregated
14.2 DEU_MA_o
13.0 Corded_Ware_DEU
11.0 SRB_N
9.4 Levant_LBN_MA_NE
8.2 SVK_Poprad_MA
6.2 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res
6.0 HUN_Lengyel_LN
4.6 Levant_ISR_C
4.4 Iberia_Southeast_c.5-8CE
4.4 Levant_PPNC
4.0 RUS_Alan_MA
3.4 Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_LBA
2.0 Iberia_North_BA
2.0 Levant_ISR_Ashkelon_IA1
1.8 IRN_Belt_Cave_Meso_low_res
1.4 Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES
1.2 RUS_Srubnaya_MLBA
1.0 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA

[Lucas]

I used whole spreadsheet except later ITA samples to check if Latini or IA or Etruscan would be prefered, and practically not. But Imperial Roman many times, also Collegno, Szolad or Baiuvarii (DEU_MA). Also some outliers from those pops. Not to mention Levant or Myceanian...

So now think why? :)

[Token]

Modern italians have more steppe ancestry than iron ages italics.

Only German-speaking Italians have more steppe than Italics.

[Samnium]

That's literally absurd, it really is like going to modern day London and just testing the dna of the first 50 people you see.

Exactly.

[Adamastor]

Exactly.

Lol

And do you guys think they didn't accounted for that? Amateurs from the internet thinking that real scientists who study these things for life are idiots is baffling.

[J. Ketch]

https://i.postimg.cc/L5ZMH7R1/roman.png
https://i.postimg.cc/rFk8VV0y/roman2.png

[Lucas]

Lol

And do you guys think they didn't accounted for that? Amateurs from the internet thinking that real scientists who study these things for life are idiots is baffling.

Yes:)
And what about posted results in G25 for Late Antiquity ad Medieval. It seems Italic peasant ressurgence is just a fantasy?

[Samnium]

Lol

And do you guys think they didn't accounted for that? Amateurs from the internet thinking that real scientists who study these things for life are idiots is baffling.No it's not that they didn't accounted is that they couldn't. Actually we know that some sites had a lot more rural inhabitants BUT for the urban and metropolitan areas impossible to know the social status based on what they say about these sites.

It's not their fault.

What would be interesting is investigating the patrician tombs for roman and noble tumulus/tombs of etruscans nobles.

+ Actually I've seen amateurs predicting years before the papers that Greek Islanders were different from mainlanders

[J. Ketch]

Yes:)
And what about posted results in G25 for Late Antiquity ad Medieval. It seems Italic peasant ressurgence is just a fantasy?
Target: Italian_Lazio
Distance: 0.9806% / 0.00980579
Aggregated
52.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial
19.8 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
11.8 DEU_MA
10.8 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
3.6 ITA_Villanovan
1.6 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA
0.2 ITA_Proto-Villanovan

33% pre-Imperial Italian vs 11% Germanic

[Lucas]

Target: Italian_Lazio
Distance: 0.9806% / 0.00980579
Aggregated
52.2 ITA_Rome_Imperial
19.8 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
11.8 DEU_MA
10.8 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o
3.6 ITA_Villanovan
1.6 ITA_Grotta_Continenza_CA
0.2 ITA_Proto-Villanovan

33% pre-Roman Italian vs 11% Germanic

And 52% Imperial. It was said many times here that Imperials declined to tiny percentage. Which turns out to be bullshit. They are bulk of Central Italian population to this day:)

Or those modern Lazio samples are already mixed with South Italians... But I think they were from good study.

[Karol Klačansky]

Yes:)
And what about posted results in G25 for Late Antiquity ad Medieval. It seems Italic peasant ressurgence is just a fantasy?So basically nordists were right and Italians are just mixed menas these days.

Sent from my ANE-LX1 using Tapatalk

[Karol Klačansky]

And 52% Imperial. It was said many times here that Imperials declined to tiny percentage. Which turns out to be bullshit. They are bulk of Central Italian population to this day:)Can you guys run some modern North and South Italians with the samples?

Sent from my ANE-LX1 using Tapatalk

[vbnetkhio]

black - modern Europeans
blue - ancient Balkanians
red - ancient Italians
green - ancient Greeks (and Empuries samples)

https://i.imgur.com/2ZtSvoM.png

[Peterski]

Eurogenes K15 results of all samples:

[edit: wait a bit, I will upload soon]

You can plot them for example here:

https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15.htm

[J. Ketch]

And 52% Imperial. It was said many times here that Imperials declined to tiny percentage. Which turns out to be bullshit. They are bulk of Central Italian population to this day:)

Or those modern Lazio samples are already mixed with South Italians... But I think they were from good study.
I never said that Imperial Romans died off, that would be ridiculous looking at the way modern Italians plot. But I think it shows post Imperial Italic resurgence had a greater impact on their current position than Germanic influence, as I've said all along.

[dududud]

Eurogenes K15 results of all samples:

[edit: wait a bit, I will upload soon]

You can plot them for example here:

https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15.htm

"Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator"

[vbnetkhio]

Eurogenes K15 results of all samples:

[edit: wait a bit, I will upload soon]

You can plot them for example here:

https://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/K15.htm

https://i.imgur.com/cEJM9HU.png

[Lucas]

I never said that Imperial Romans died off, that would be ridiculous looking at the way modern Italians plot. But I think it shows post Imperial Italic resurgence had a greater impact on their current position than Germanic influence, as I've said all along.

Ok, it wasn't you but Peterski theory of nearly complete extinction of Imperials.

[Peterski]

"Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator"

Yes I will re-upload.

[J. Ketch]

Can you guys run some modern North and South Italians with the samples?

Sent from my ANE-LX1 using Tapatalk
I didn't include the Medieval/Renaissance samples.
https://i.postimg.cc/tR12TZv3/Opera-Snapshot-2019-11-11-230957-vahaduo-github-io.png
The Jewish Empire :rolleyes:

[dududud]

https://i.imgur.com/cEJM9HU.png

Possible to have BB fra scaled on the global 25 PCA?

[savvas]

T-SNE plot with Ancient Roman samples (7/8 non-outlier Iron Age Italians highlighted in red):

https://i.imgur.com/hUUF68L.png

[WeirdLookingFellow]

https://i.postimg.cc/L5ZMH7R1/roman.png
https://i.postimg.cc/rFk8VV0y/roman2.png

We need some more samples for Cucuteni - Trypillia and we might be able to tell how different were Thracians/Illyrians and Romans, which, considering the time when the colonization happened, might have seen heavy input of these Levantine colonizers. Based on your PCA and some G25 runs, Balkan people seem to be Neolithic + WHG and then heavily Yamnaya'd. What I did notice is that overall Romanians have a higher East Med component, which shows as Tepecik on G25 runs when you add it. This probably indicates a later secondary Anatolian move into South-East Europe . This is also argumented by the Tepecik input on the Bavarian STR310 and o_STR300 samples, which had artificial cranial deformation, unlike the samples which were local to Central-West Europe. This was also found in Chalcolithic Anatolia/Near East.

The Tepecik study also hints at a 2nd migration westwards during the Chalcolithic, and it seems that this population might have remained in SE Europe, creating a gap between Barcin + WHG Italians and Barcin + Tepecik + WHG SE Europeans.


Target: DEU_MA_o:STR_300
Distance: 3.0765% / 0.03076529
Aggregated
55.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
21.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
15.8 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
7.8 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C

Target: DEU_MA_ACD:STR_355
Distance: 3.9948% / 0.03994831
Aggregated
49.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
33.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
17.0 WHG

Target: DEU_MA_ACD:STR_328
Distance: 6.0361% / 0.06036053
Aggregated
53.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
26.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
8.0 Levant_Natufian
7.6 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
4.4 WHG

Target: DEU_MA_ACD:STR_310
Distance: 1.5663% / 0.01566277
Aggregated
41.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
35.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
8.0 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
6.6 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
6.6 WHG
1.8 Levant_Natufian



Target: UKR_Trypillia:I2110
Distance: 3.5017% / 0.03501676
Aggregated
77.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
14.0 WHG
8.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: UKR_Trypillia_En:I1926
Distance: 2.5025% / 0.02502452
Aggregated
71.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
20.6 WHG
5.0 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
1.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
1.2 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N

Target: Insert_scaled
Distance: 3.1323% / 0.03132329
Aggregated
40.4 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
31.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
17.8 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
10.0 WHG

Target: ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N:RMPR2
Distance: 1.9427% / 0.01942737
Aggregated
96.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
3.4 WHG

Target: ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N:RMPR3
Distance: 1.9629% / 0.01962941
Aggregated
98.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
0.8 WHG
0.6 Levant_Natufian
0.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N:RMPR6
Distance: 3.6200% / 0.03620016
Aggregated
78.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
21.8 WHG

Target: ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N:RMPR8
Distance: 1.6302% / 0.01630177
Aggregated
93.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
4.2 WHG
2.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara

Target: ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N:RMPR9
Distance: 1.3003% / 0.01300333
Aggregated
98.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
0.6 Levant_Natufian
0.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
0.2 WHG

Target: ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N:RMPR10
Distance: 1.9049% / 0.01904909
Aggregated
96.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
3.2 WHG

Target: ITA_Grotta_Continenza_N:RMPR10
Distance: 1.9049% / 0.01904909
Aggregated
96.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
3.2 WHG

Target: Romanian:G434
Distance: 3.0024% / 0.03002418
Aggregated
39.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
32.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
17.0 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
8.4 WHG
2.4 Levant_Natufian

Target: Romanian:G429
Distance: 3.6141% / 0.03614097
Aggregated
51.6 Anatolia_Barcin_N
37.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
6.6 WHG
4.8 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C

Target: Romanian:G428
Distance: 3.2035% / 0.03203533
Aggregated
47.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
39.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
8.0 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
5.0 WHG

Target: Romanian:G421
Distance: 2.9894% / 0.02989386
Aggregated
50.2 Anatolia_Barcin_N
37.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
6.6 WHG
3.8 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
1.2 Levant_Natufian
0.6 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C

Target: Romanian:G408
Distance: 3.2353% / 0.03235320
Aggregated
39.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
35.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
17.8 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
7.6 WHG

Target: Romanian:A374
Distance: 2.6952% / 0.02695159
Aggregated
46.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
42.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
7.2 WHG
1.6 IRN_Tepe_Hissar_C
1.2 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
0.6 Levant_Natufian

Target: Romanian:A362
Distance: 3.8624% / 0.03862358
Aggregated
41.8 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
34.8 Anatolia_Barcin_N
16.8 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
6.6 WHG

Target: Romanian:A343
Distance: 2.8647% / 0.02864661
Aggregated
41.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
40.0 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
12.8 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
6.2 WHG

Target: Romanian:A325
Distance: 3.4889% / 0.03488876
Aggregated
38.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
28.0 Anatolia_Barcin_N
27.6 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
5.8 WHG

Target: Romanian:A306
Distance: 3.1764% / 0.03176398
Aggregated
43.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
40.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
11.8 WHG
4.0 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
0.6 Levant_Natufian

[Samnium]

I made a simple 4-populations model, the two etruscans samples indeed have very high EEF, and one show elevated Steppe.

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/490551642446495772/643427224887754753/unknown.png

[Samnium]

double

[WeirdLookingFellow]

Based on what this study says, the results are accurate and this is the clear differentiation between Romans and Paleo-Balkan peoples: An addition of Tepecik and more intense Yamnaya input. I just farted my own conclusion which is basically theirs but based on G25 results. Would've been nicer if they added more context on this.


Further, genetic affinities between later Anatolian farmers and fourth to third millennium BC Chalcolithic south Europeans suggest an additional wave of Anatolian migrants, after the initial Neolithic spread but before the Yamnaya-related migrations.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5069350/

[Lucas]

Samples from study in 23&me format. Download it from Google Drive and then upload to Gedmatch, I have no time for that:)
Converted with -geno 0.1 parameter in PLINK.


Link to archive https://drive.google.com/open?id=1_a8Fb60NXeCP4L3C6W2tDsdgl-DdQ_fD

Key to samples:

RMPR-117 wez1.txt
RMPR-41 wez2.txt
RMPR-1545 wez3.txt
RMPR-109 wez4.txt
RMPR-33 wez5.txt
RMPR-137 wez6.txt
RMPR-61 wez7.txt
RMPR-25 wez8.txt
RMPR-1283 wez9.txt
RMPR-1219 wez10.txt
RMPR-1021 wez11.txt
RMPR-53 wez12.txt
RMPR-110 wez13.txt
RMPR-17 wez14.txt
RMPR-3 wez15.txt
RMPR-81 wez16.txt
RMPR-45 wez17.txt
RMPR-1220 wez18.txt
RMPR-1549 wez19.txt
RMPR-73 wez20.txt
RMPR-130 wez21.txt
RMPR-37 wez22.txt
RMPR-65 wez23.txt
RMPR-122 wez24.txt
RMPR-29 wez25.txt
RMPR-1550 wez26.txt
RMPR-10 wez27.txt
RMPR-1287 wez28.txt
RMPR-57 wez29.txt
RMPR-114 wez30.txt
RMPR-7 wez31.txt
RMPR-49 wez32.txt
RMPR-106 wez33.txt
RMPR-30 wez34.txt
RMPR-475b wez35.txt
RMPR-1224 wez36.txt
RMPR-134 wez37.txt
RMPR-22 wez38.txt
RMPR-69 wez39.txt
RMPR-126 wez40.txt
RMPR-50 wez41.txt
RMPR-436 wez42.txt
RMPR-118 wez43.txt
RMPR-42 wez44.txt
RMPR-850 wez45.txt
RMPR-70 wez46.txt
RMPR-34 wez47.txt
RMPR-62 wez48.txt
RMPR-973 wez49.txt
RMPR-26 wez50.txt
RMPR-54 wez51.txt
RMPR-111 wez52.txt
RMPR-18 wez53.txt
RMPR-4 wez54.txt
RMPR-1014 wez55.txt
RMPR-1221 wez56.txt
RMPR-131 wez57.txt
RMPR-38 wez58.txt
RMPR-66 wez59.txt
RMPR-123 wez60.txt
RMPR-1551 wez61.txt
RMPR-11 wez62.txt
RMPR-1288 wez63.txt
RMPR-969 wez64.txt
RMPR-58 wez65.txt
RMPR-115 wez66.txt
RMPR-8 wez67.txt
RMPR-1543 wez68.txt
RMPR-31 wez69.txt
RMPR-107 wez70.txt
RMPR-78 wez71.txt
RMPR-970 wez72.txt
RMPR-473 wez73.txt
RMPR-51 wez74.txt
RMPR-1 wez75.txt
RMPR-15 wez76.txt
RMPR-43 wez77.txt
RMPR-71 wez78.txt
RMPR-1547 wez79.txt
RMPR-851 wez80.txt
RMPR-435b wez81.txt
RMPR-35 wez82.txt
RMPR-63 wez83.txt
RMPR-120 wez84.txt
RMPR-27 wez85.txt
RMPR-437b wez86.txt
RMPR-1285 wez87.txt
RMPR-835 wez88.txt
RMPR-55 wez89.txt
RMPR-19 wez90.txt
RMPR-5 wez91.txt
RMPR-1015 wez92.txt
RMPR-47 wez93.txt
RMPR-104 wez94.txt
RMPR-75 wez95.txt
RMPR-132 wez96.txt
RMPR-39 wez97.txt
RMPR-474b wez98.txt
RMPR-67 wez99.txt
RMPR-1289 wez100.txt
RMPR-59 wez101.txt
RMPR-116 wez102.txt
RMPR-40 wez103.txt
RMPR-9 wez104.txt
RMPR-1544 wez105.txt
RMPR-32 wez106.txt
RMPR-108 wez107.txt
RMPR-1290 wez108.txt
RMPR-136 wez109.txt
RMPR-60 wez110.txt
RMPR-24 wez111.txt
RMPR-128 wez112.txt
RMPR-52 wez113.txt
RMPR-16 wez114.txt
RMPR-2 wez115.txt
RMPR-80 wez116.txt
RMPR-44 wez117.txt
RMPR-1548 wez118.txt
RMPR-72 wez119.txt
RMPR-458 wez120.txt
RMPR-36 wez121.txt
RMPR-64 wez122.txt
RMPR-121 wez123.txt
RMPR-28 wez124.txt
RMPR-1286 wez125.txt
RMPR-836 wez126.txt
RMPR-56 wez127.txt
RMPR-113 wez128.txt
RMPR-6 wez129.txt
RMPR-1016 wez130.txt
RMPR-105 wez131.txt
RMPR-76 wez132.txt
RMPR-133 wez133.txt
RMPR-68 wez134.txt
RMPR-125 wez135.txt

[Slavic Italian]

Basically all of this just to reconfirm the Romans were...………………...Italians.

[Vid Flumina]

Only German-speaking Italians have more steppe than Italics.

Why not simply stick to Carioca threads?

https://i.imgur.com/ebqndwe.png

[Leto]

Why not simply stick to Carioca threads?

[img]https://i.imgur.com/ebqndwe.png
Token is a certified scholar.

[WeirdLookingFellow]

Why not simply stick to Carioca threads?

https://i.imgur.com/ebqndwe.png

Man on internet uses random references on g25 and insults actual specialist.

[Vid Flumina]

Token is a certified scholar.

https://allthatsinteresting.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/cool-ndt-meme-linedrawing.jpg

[Vid Flumina]

https://i.imgur.com/ebqndwe.png

PCA:

https://i.imgur.com/WWSDAXd.png

[vbnetkhio]

Possible to have BB fra scaled on the global 25 PCA?

here, France middle neolithic and bell beakers in orange
https://i.imgur.com/cvk0FW8.png

that plot you quoted is k15 not g25

[Adamastor]

Token is a certified scholar.

Don't care about this guy, he is a complete retard with mental issues. I remember when he said Iberians cannot be placed properly in a West Eurasian PCA due to being ''African'' admixed and similar to Canarians and Latinos. A nutjob.

[Samnium]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/490551642446495772/643436796017115176/unknown.png

You need to add 20% extra levantine component to the Roman Late Antiquity which was already "mixed"

[J. Ketch]

When testing the hypothetical Roman influence in NW Europe in G25 it selects for SW Euro Early Latin/Villanovan/Etruscan etc rather than East Med Imperial Rome/Late Antiquity etc

[Lucas]

When testing the hypothetical Roman influence in NW Europe in G25 it selects for SW Euro Early Latin/Villanovan/Etruscan etc rather than East Med Imperial Rome/Late Antiquity etc

Probably because there are more NW shifted.

[dududud]

Samples from study in 23&me format. Download it from Google Drive and then upload to Gedmatch, I have no time for that:)
Converted with -geno 0.1 parameter in PLINK.


Link to archive https://drive.google.com/open?id=1_a8Fb60NXeCP4L3C6W2tDsdgl-DdQ_fD

Key to samples:

RMPR-117 wez1.txt
RMPR-41 wez2.txt
RMPR-1545 wez3.txt
RMPR-109 wez4.txt
RMPR-33 wez5.txt
RMPR-137 wez6.txt
RMPR-61 wez7.txt
RMPR-25 wez8.txt
RMPR-1283 wez9.txt
RMPR-1219 wez10.txt
RMPR-1021 wez11.txt
RMPR-53 wez12.txt
RMPR-110 wez13.txt
RMPR-17 wez14.txt
RMPR-3 wez15.txt
RMPR-81 wez16.txt
RMPR-45 wez17.txt
RMPR-1220 wez18.txt
RMPR-1549 wez19.txt
RMPR-73 wez20.txt
RMPR-130 wez21.txt
RMPR-37 wez22.txt
RMPR-65 wez23.txt
RMPR-122 wez24.txt
RMPR-29 wez25.txt
RMPR-1550 wez26.txt
RMPR-10 wez27.txt
RMPR-1287 wez28.txt
RMPR-57 wez29.txt
RMPR-114 wez30.txt
RMPR-7 wez31.txt
RMPR-49 wez32.txt
RMPR-106 wez33.txt
RMPR-30 wez34.txt
RMPR-475b wez35.txt
RMPR-1224 wez36.txt
RMPR-134 wez37.txt
RMPR-22 wez38.txt
RMPR-69 wez39.txt
RMPR-126 wez40.txt
RMPR-50 wez41.txt
RMPR-436 wez42.txt
RMPR-118 wez43.txt
RMPR-42 wez44.txt
RMPR-850 wez45.txt
RMPR-70 wez46.txt
RMPR-34 wez47.txt
RMPR-62 wez48.txt
RMPR-973 wez49.txt
RMPR-26 wez50.txt
RMPR-54 wez51.txt
RMPR-111 wez52.txt
RMPR-18 wez53.txt
RMPR-4 wez54.txt
RMPR-1014 wez55.txt
RMPR-1221 wez56.txt
RMPR-131 wez57.txt
RMPR-38 wez58.txt
RMPR-66 wez59.txt
RMPR-123 wez60.txt
RMPR-1551 wez61.txt
RMPR-11 wez62.txt
RMPR-1288 wez63.txt
RMPR-969 wez64.txt
RMPR-58 wez65.txt
RMPR-115 wez66.txt
RMPR-8 wez67.txt
RMPR-1543 wez68.txt
RMPR-31 wez69.txt
RMPR-107 wez70.txt
RMPR-78 wez71.txt
RMPR-970 wez72.txt
RMPR-473 wez73.txt
RMPR-51 wez74.txt
RMPR-1 wez75.txt
RMPR-15 wez76.txt
RMPR-43 wez77.txt
RMPR-71 wez78.txt
RMPR-1547 wez79.txt
RMPR-851 wez80.txt
RMPR-435b wez81.txt
RMPR-35 wez82.txt
RMPR-63 wez83.txt
RMPR-120 wez84.txt
RMPR-27 wez85.txt
RMPR-437b wez86.txt
RMPR-1285 wez87.txt
RMPR-835 wez88.txt
RMPR-55 wez89.txt
RMPR-19 wez90.txt
RMPR-5 wez91.txt
RMPR-1015 wez92.txt
RMPR-47 wez93.txt
RMPR-104 wez94.txt
RMPR-75 wez95.txt
RMPR-132 wez96.txt
RMPR-39 wez97.txt
RMPR-474b wez98.txt
RMPR-67 wez99.txt
RMPR-1289 wez100.txt
RMPR-59 wez101.txt
RMPR-116 wez102.txt
RMPR-40 wez103.txt
RMPR-9 wez104.txt
RMPR-1544 wez105.txt
RMPR-32 wez106.txt
RMPR-108 wez107.txt
RMPR-1290 wez108.txt
RMPR-136 wez109.txt
RMPR-60 wez110.txt
RMPR-24 wez111.txt
RMPR-128 wez112.txt
RMPR-52 wez113.txt
RMPR-16 wez114.txt
RMPR-2 wez115.txt
RMPR-80 wez116.txt
RMPR-44 wez117.txt
RMPR-1548 wez118.txt
RMPR-72 wez119.txt
RMPR-458 wez120.txt
RMPR-36 wez121.txt
RMPR-64 wez122.txt
RMPR-121 wez123.txt
RMPR-28 wez124.txt
RMPR-1286 wez125.txt
RMPR-836 wez126.txt
RMPR-56 wez127.txt
RMPR-113 wez128.txt
RMPR-6 wez129.txt
RMPR-1016 wez130.txt
RMPR-105 wez131.txt
RMPR-76 wez132.txt
RMPR-133 wez133.txt
RMPR-68 wez134.txt
RMPR-125 wez135.txt

Upload doesn't work on Gedmatch. Error 1001 1100

[Samnium]

Modelisation of all S.italian regions :

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/490551642446495772/643453040170369024/unknown.png

I used Berber, Armenia and Levant to split up the components (even if Levant might contains some Armenia as well).

Sicilian averages have nonexistent Latin_IA but high etruscan, berber and levantine.

Highest Latin_IA is found in Calabria and Levantine as well but the distance is rather high between the model and the sample so to discard.

Basilicata is similar to Calabria (high Latin_IA but high Levantine as well).

[WeirdLookingFellow]

Modelisation of all S.italian regions :

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/490551642446495772/643453040170369024/unknown.png

I used Berber, Armenia and Levant to split up the components (even if Levant might contains some Armenia as well).

Sicilian averages have nonexistent Latin_IA but high etruscan, berber and levantine.

Highest Latin_IA is found in Calabria and Levantine as well but the distance is rather high between the model and the sample so to discard.

Basilicata is similar to Calabria (high Latin_IA but high Levantine as well).

Huh.

https://i.imgur.com/oUKNczX.png

[Samnium]

Huh.

https://i.imgur.com/oUKNczX.png

IT Etruscan_o is an outlier, extremely shifted toward NA admixed populations (maybe it's the sample that could be modeled as 50% moroccan in the study)

Distance to ITA_Etruscan_o:

0.05527070
Spanish_Canarias
0.05974642
French_Corsica_o
0.06558204
Maltese
0.06655774
Sicilian_West
0.07065779
French_Corsica
0.07086887
Moroccan_Jew
0.07252167
Sicilian_East
0.07365596
Spanish_Extremadura
0.07375213
Portuguese
0.07450916
Italian_Jew
0.07524352
Italian_Lazio
0.07558007
Spanish_Murcia
0.07568171
Sardinian

+ This model work only with S.Italian regions because you won't expect to find Berber admixture in romanian for example.

[WeirdLookingFellow]

IT Etruscan_o is an outlier, extremely shifted toward NA admixed populations (maybe it's the sample that could be modeled as 50% moroccan in the study)

Distance to ITA_Etruscan_o:

0.05527070
Spanish_Canarias
0.05974642
French_Corsica_o
0.06558204
Maltese
0.06655774
Sicilian_West
0.07065779
French_Corsica
0.07086887
Moroccan_Jew
0.07252167
Sicilian_East
0.07365596
Spanish_Extremadura
0.07375213
Portuguese
0.07450916
Italian_Jew
0.07524352
Italian_Lazio
0.07558007
Spanish_Murcia
0.07568171
Sardinian

+ This model work only with S.Italian regions (and only some by the way) because you won't expect to find Levantine and Berber admixture in romanian for example.

I know it works only for Italians but I was curious considering the history of SE Europe.

[Samnium]

I know it works only for Italians but I was curious considering the history of SE Europe.

Of course !

[Calpurnius]

I think that proto-Villanovan sample is important, most of the Italic languages did not belong to the Latino-Faliscan branch but to the Osco-Umbrian. All of these iron age samples bar the proto-Villanovan one belong either to Latins(Latino-Faliscan) or Villanovan derived like Etruscan. Proto-Villanovan is typically considered the ancestral culture of Italics as a whole, it should be taken into consideration when modelling Italians imho, especially since this proto-Villanova resembles so much that one iron age Croatian just from the other side of the adriatic. I think many linguists even think the two families split up before even migrating into Italy.

Here's a quick model, "Italic" is the aggregate score of proto-Villanovan+Rome_Latini. Aside from the problematic Ligurian sample, only one, which shows unusually high north African input and is probably not representative, the rest fit pretty well.
https://i.imgur.com/DDbdXOe.png

[Calpurnius]

Mediterranean focused G25 PCA with some samples. One thing, it really does show how Sardinians are definitely shifted towards Italy compared to copper age samples. Also, these Italics are not as close as iron age Iberians as I thought.
https://i.imgur.com/Hi6DNcz.png

[J. Ketch]

Late Imperial Roman soldier in Germany (400 AD) similarity to other ancients with new samples


Distance to: DEU_Roman
0.03153867 Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE
0.03262136 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA
0.03427280 ITA_Etruscan
0.03595832 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
0.03607209 Iberia_East_IA
0.03629347 HRV_MBA
0.03729482 DEU_Lech_MBA
0.03798308 Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES
0.03889634 TZA_Zanzibar_Euro_outlier
0.03959975 ITA_Villanovan
0.04146630 Iberia_North_IA
0.04208106 Bell_Beaker_CHE
0.04283945 Iberia_Northeast_RomP
0.04352387 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
0.04430422 Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL
0.04456915 ITA_Rome_Renaissance
0.04511637 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
0.04532488 Iberia_North_BA
0.04563420 Scythian_HUN
0.04691884 HUN_BA
0.04798985 Iberia_Central_CA_Stp
0.04860806 Iberia_Northeast_BA
0.04989930 Levant_LBN_MA_Euro
0.05103557 ITA_Boville_Ernica_Latini_IA
0.05152957 Iberia_Central_BA
0.05310924 Iberia_Northwest_CA_Stp
0.05383825 BGR_EBA
0.05408742 DEU_Lech_EBA
0.05423437 DEU_Lech_BBC
0.05427968 HRV_EBA
0.05449799 ITA_Proto-Villanovan
0.05456123 Bell_Beaker_HUN
0.05482959 HRV_IA
0.05525058 ITA_Collegno_MA
0.05555867 ITA_Rome_MA
0.05557045 Bell_Beaker_ITA
0.05569062 HUN_MA_Szolad
0.05584421 DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3
0.05732466 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
0.05793313 HUN_LBA
0.06151103 HUN_MA
0.06154151 Iberia_Southwest_BA
0.06155413 Iberia_Southeast_BA
0.06183414 Bell_Beaker_FRA_C
0.06237651 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
0.06298345 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria
0.06448203 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
0.06453188 Scythian_MDA
0.06536924 Iberia_Southwest_BA_Afr
0.06668395 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky

[Samnium]

Mediterranean focused G25 PCA with some samples. One thing, it really does show how Sardinians are definitely shifted towards Italy compared to copper age samples. Also, these Italics are not as close as iron age Iberians as I thought.
https://i.imgur.com/Hi6DNcz.png

I think in the beginning we have seen the PCA of the study and we have thought that they were closer to Iberians than Italians etc. That's not true. They seems to be much more EEF and less WHG than shown in the study, except for the outliers. I've seen a strong drift toward Sardinia, even more pronounced with one of the etruscans samples.

[Calpurnius]

I think in the beginning we have seen the PCA of the study and we have thought that they were closer to Iberians than Italians etc. That's not true. They seems to be much more EEF and less WHG than anything, except for the outliers. I've seen a strong drift toward Sardinia, even more pronounced with one of the etruscans samples.
They do seem closer to non Basque Iberians though, and I think this is due both to an iron age Iberian genetic structure that was already relatively similar(bar the excess WHG in the first) but also to Italic input in Iberians during the Roman presence. In terms of single item distance Iberians are closer than Italians, except for the proto-Villanovan one who really likes north Italians

[Lucas]

Upload doesn't work on Gedmatch. Error 1001 1100

But you unpacked file "plink.zip" i uploaded files separately? I tried with randomly chosen wez8.txt and uploaded without problem.

[Arch Hades]

I'd say this study does a lot to reinforce The Italo-Celtic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italo-Celtic) hypothesis. Iron Age-Republican era Central Italians are closest to Bronze Age Iberians who probably spoke Celtic.

[dududud]

But you unpacked file "plink.zip" i uploaded files separately? I tried with randomly chosen wez8.txt and uploaded without problem.

No, uploaded separately... same error. No x chromosome = 1001 1100 error.

[andre]

I think that proto-Villanovan sample is important, most of the Italic languages did not belong to the Latino-Faliscan branch but to the Osco-Umbrian. All of these iron age samples bar the proto-Villanovan one belong either to Latins(Latino-Faliscan) or Villanovan derived like Etruscan. Proto-Villanovan is typically considered the ancestral culture of Italics as a whole, it should be taken into consideration when modelling Italians imho, especially since this proto-Villanova resembles so much that one iron age Croatian just from the other side of the adriatic. I think many linguists even think the two families split up before even migrating into Italy.

Here's a quick model, "Italic" is the aggregate score of proto-Villanovan+Rome_Latini. Aside from the problematic Ligurian sample, only one, which shows unusually high north African input and is probably not representative, the rest fit pretty well.
https://i.imgur.com/DDbdXOe.png

Nice! We don’t have a gallic/celtic good sample? Or try to put hallstatt_bylany (it’s a celtic czech sample).. but i don’t know if it’s a pure celtic sample or mixed.

[Samnium]

They do seem closer to non Basque Iberians though, and I think this is due both to an iron age Iberian genetic structure that was already relatively similar(bar the excess WHG in the first) but also to Italic input in Iberians during the Roman presence. In terms of single item distance Iberians are closer than Italians, except for the proto-Villanovan one who really likes north Italians

Imperial era has likely easternized Spain, that was probably similar to Basques I think, therefore putting them closer to ancient Italics probably.

[Calpurnius]

Nice! We don’t have a gallic/celtic good sample? Or try to put hallstatt_bylany (it’s a celtic czech sample).. but i don’t know if it’s a pure celtic sample or mixed.
I think I8206 from Empuries in Iberia is a good candidate. Here's a 4 way one adding that sample. Interesting the amount in Umbria, Galli senones perhaps?
https://i.imgur.com/umCV7ST.png

[dududud]

But you unpacked file "plink.zip" i uploaded files separately? I tried with randomly chosen wez8.txt and uploaded without problem.

"Warning: File does not contain any X-DNA data"

[vbnetkhio]

"Warning: File does not contain any X-DNA data"

that's ok, x dna isn't used in autosomal caluclators

[SharpFork]

Late Imperial Roman soldier in Germany (400 AD) similarity to other ancients with new samples


Distance to: DEU_Roman
0.03153867 Iberia_Northeast_c.8-12CE
0.03262136 ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA
0.03427280 ITA_Etruscan
0.03595832 ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA
0.03607209 Iberia_East_IA
0.03629347 HRV_MBA
0.03729482 DEU_Lech_MBA
0.03798308 Iberia_Northeast_c.6-8CE_ES
0.03889634 TZA_Zanzibar_Euro_outlier
0.03959975 ITA_Villanovan
0.04146630 Iberia_North_IA
0.04208106 Bell_Beaker_CHE
0.04283945 Iberia_Northeast_RomP
0.04352387 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries1
0.04430422 Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL
0.04456915 ITA_Rome_Renaissance
0.04511637 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
0.04532488 Iberia_North_BA
0.04563420 Scythian_HUN
0.04691884 HUN_BA
0.04798985 Iberia_Central_CA_Stp
0.04860806 Iberia_Northeast_BA
0.04989930 Levant_LBN_MA_Euro
0.05103557 ITA_Boville_Ernica_Latini_IA
0.05152957 Iberia_Central_BA
0.05310924 Iberia_Northwest_CA_Stp
0.05383825 BGR_EBA
0.05408742 DEU_Lech_EBA
0.05423437 DEU_Lech_BBC
0.05427968 HRV_EBA
0.05449799 ITA_Proto-Villanovan
0.05456123 Bell_Beaker_HUN
0.05482959 HRV_IA
0.05525058 ITA_Collegno_MA
0.05555867 ITA_Rome_MA
0.05557045 Bell_Beaker_ITA
0.05569062 HUN_MA_Szolad
0.05584421 DEU_Welzin_BA_outlier3
0.05732466 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
0.05793313 HUN_LBA
0.06151103 HUN_MA
0.06154151 Iberia_Southwest_BA
0.06155413 Iberia_Southeast_BA
0.06183414 Bell_Beaker_FRA_C
0.06237651 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
0.06298345 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria
0.06448203 ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity
0.06453188 Scythian_MDA
0.06536924 Iberia_Southwest_BA_Afr
0.06668395 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky

If we assume that Roman genetic influence in Germany and Gaul was made through Iron Age Italic-like people would the expected Roman influence be far bigger than what we would have estimated before?

[dududud]

that's ok, x dna isn't used in autosomal caluclators

The problem is : Error 1001 1100, kit not found

[trebil]

https://i.imgur.com/URxuuCf.jpg

[vbnetkhio]

could somebody explain which of the Roman samples have such obvious "Balkan ancestry" :D
are they basing this just on the similarity to the iron age Croatian?
https://i.imgur.com/o3BVUne.png

[dududud]

that's ok, x dna isn't used in autosomal caluclators

"Status Percent HTZ out of range"

= doesn't work.

Same for all files.

[Calpurnius]

could somebody explain which of the Roman samples have such obvious "Balkan ancestry" :D
are they basing this just on the similarity to the iron age Croatian?
https://i.imgur.com/o3BVUne.png
R1 does, but that's the thing, his cultural affiliation is not Roman, he is from a proto-Villanovan context and he is the oldest of the iron age samples. I don't think his Balkan shift towards Croatia_IA is just some coincidence tbh. We'll see if the next paper coming has more geographically varied samples

[dududud]

R1 does, but that's the thing, his cultural affiliation is not Roman, he is from a proto-Villanovan context and he is the oldest of the iron age samples. I don't think his Balkan shift towards Croatia_IA is just some coincidence tbh. We'll see if the next paper coming has more geographically varied samples

Still no gedmatch kit available? Take a looooong time to have them.

[trebil]

Mediterranean focused G25 PCA with some samples. One thing, it really does show how Sardinians are definitely shifted towards Italy compared to copper age samples. Also, these Italics are not as close as iron age Iberians as I thought.
https://i.imgur.com/Hi6DNcz.png

Can you add the two Etruscans RMPR473 and RMPR474b?

The northernmost Corsicans in your PCA are likely mixed with French.