Ancient Rome: A genetic crossroads of Europe and the Mediterranean

[Samnium]

Ancient Rome: A genetic crossroads of Europe and the Mediterranean

Margaret L. Antonio, Ziyue Gao, Hannah M. Moots, Michaela Lucci, Francesca Candilio, Susanna Sawyer, Victoria Oberreiter, Diego Calderon, Katharina Devitofranceschi...

Abstract

Ancient Rome was the capital of an empire of ~70 million inhabitants, but little is known about the genetics of ancient Romans. Here we present 127 genomes from 29 archaeological sites in and around Rome, spanning the past 12,000 years. We observe two major prehistoric ancestry transitions: one with the introduction of farming and another prior to the Iron Age. By the founding of Rome, the genetic composition of the region approximated that of modern Mediterranean populations. During the Imperial period, Rome’s population received net immigration from the Near East, followed by an increase in genetic contributions from Europe. These ancestry shifts mirrored the geopolitical affiliations of Rome and were accompanied by marked interindividual diversity, reflecting gene flow from across the Mediterranean, Europe, and North Africa.

Source : https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6466/708

[vbnetkhio]

Ancient Rome: A genetic crossroads of Europe and the Mediterranean

Margaret L. Antonio, Ziyue Gao, Hannah M. Moots, Michaela Lucci, Francesca Candilio, Susanna Sawyer, Victoria Oberreiter, Diego Calderon, Katharina Devitofranceschi...


Abstract

Ancient Rome was the capital of an empire of ~70 million inhabitants, but little is known about the genetics of ancient Romans. Here we present 127 genomes from 29 archaeological sites in and around Rome, spanning the past 12,000 years. We observe two major prehistoric ancestry transitions: one with the introduction of farming and another prior to the Iron Age. By the founding of Rome, the genetic composition of the region approximated that of modern Mediterranean populations. During the Imperial period, Rome’s population received net immigration from the Near East, followed by an increase in genetic contributions from Europe. These ancestry shifts mirrored the geopolitical affiliations of Rome and were accompanied by marked interindividual diversity, reflecting gene flow from across the Mediterranean, Europe, and North Africa.

Source : https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6466/708


this just came out?

[Adamm]

Is this the new study?

[Dna8]

I haven't read the source, but your opening post harmonizes with my perception.

[Samnium]

Is this the new study?

It's not the same study as the one that I've talked about. The next study will be published in two weeks, and this will investigate another possibility, that Italic peoples from rural and remote areas have repopulated the cities.

[Samnium]

this just came out?

45 minutes ago yes

[Samnium]

"For the first time a study of this magnitude is conducted on a great classical civilization and is focused on Rome the capital of one of the greatest empires of Antiquity."

Alfredo Coppa professor of Physical Anthropology at Sapienza University in Rome.

(https://medienportal.univie.ac.at/presse/aktuelle-pressemeldungen/detailansicht/artikel/ancient-rome-a-12000-year-history-of-genetic-flux-migrations-and-diversity/)


A tool provided by the authors, to visualize the data collected : https://dcalderon.shinyapps.io/shiny_rome/

[vbnetkhio]

45 minutes ago yes

is it this one?

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/anthroscape/upcoming-study-on-ancient-italian-dna-t87552-s15.html

https://i.imgur.com/bNZThgz.png

[J. Ketch]

https://dcalderon.shinyapps.io/shiny_rome/_w_c9f650e1/summary_mini.gif
Check out the massive shift from Iron Age (Republican) to Imperial.

[Samnium]

is it this one?

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/anthroscape/upcoming-study-on-ancient-italian-dna-t87552-s15.html

https://i.imgur.com/bNZThgz.png

Nope. It's another PCA with new samples. This one is old.

[Calpurnius]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ThirstyYellowAmericanquarterhorse-size_restricted.gif

[Samnium]

Timeline and accurate genetic composition of the samples

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/638825419436720148/642092296170373133/unknown.png

[Calpurnius]

Am I getting this right? Is that early iron age individual from Croatia that mysteriously resembled so much Bergamo/Lombardy samples consistent with belonging to the same population as Iron age Italians?
https://i.imgur.com/x3ksZ0c.png

[Jana]

Am I getting this right? Is that early iron age individual from Croatia that mysteriously resembled so much Bergamo/Lombardy samples consistent with belonging to the same population as Iron age Italians?
https://i.imgur.com/x3ksZ0c.png

All ancient samples from Croatia were Italian like so far (Bergamo-Tuscany cline, some even NW from Bergamo), both in Dalmatia and Panonnia.
Somebody wrote this sample is actually BA, but I am not sure.

[Adamastor]

See, I said early Romans would be SW Europeans. I'm repeating it for months here: Southern Europe was once mostly Iberian/North Italian like. Look at how Anatolian admixture decreased and other components increased with the passage from Republican to Imperial Era.

The most EEF/Anatolian admixed mainland Euros are the North Italians and Iberians.

[Calpurnius]

Also I'm skimming throughout the supplementary info and suspiciously enough in the models they have for post Imperial age Rome including medieval ones they don't seem to consider Iron age samples as a possible source for the more recent samples and their shift back north, they seem to only use foreign sources which seems quite naive to me, it's very possible that much of iron age genetic structure survived outside of the most populated areas of central Italy, maybe from north Italy itself.

[vbnetkhio]

that early iron age individual from Croatia that mysteriously resembled so much Bergamo/Lombardy
there's nothing mysterious there. the Scythian samples from Moldova and Hungary are also like that. i think it's safe to say those were the normal iron age Northern Balkan genetics.

[Samnium]

Haplogroup analysis

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/638825419436720148/642096759795089441/unknown.png

There is also a noticeable decrease in R1b haplogroups

[Samnium]

Also I'm skimming throughout the supplementary info and suspiciously enough in the models they have for post Imperial age Rome including medieval ones they don't seem to consider Iron age samples as a possible source for the more recent samples and their shift back north, they seem to only use foreign sources which seems quite naive to me, it's very possible that much of iron age genetic structure survived outside of the most populated areas of central Italy, maybe from north Italy itself.

I think that there is another study that's coming and that will evaluate that. I think they are over-estimating the Northern/Central input definitely.

I think that in the South there are also relict from Italic people. Like the area around Cosenza. But also other inland areas.

[vbnetkhio]

All ancient samples from Croatia were Italian like so far (Bergamo-Tuscany cline, some even NW from Bergamo), both in Dalmatia and Panonnia.
Somebody wrote this sample is actually BA, but I am not sure.

SZ6386770 I3313_Illyrian_Dalmatia_1200_bc
TX8387837 I4332_Illyrian_Dalmatia_1600_bc
JM8436604 I3499_Bronze_Age_Vucedol_2000_bc_R1b_Z2103_L23

the one from 1200 bc is sometimes labeled iron age, sometimes bronze, other two are proper bronze

[Jana]

SZ6386770 I3313_Illyrian_Dalmatia_1200_bc
TX8387837 I4332_Illyrian_Dalmatia_1600_bc
JM8436604 I3499_Bronze_Age_Vucedol_2000_bc_R1b_Z2103_L23

the one from 1200 bc is sometimes labeled iron age, sometimes bronze, other two are proper bronze

They also had typical Balkan haplogroups pretty much absent from Italy and most present in modern Albanians, so I don't think they were Italics of any kind. They never lived here, especially not in remote dinaric region.

[J. Ketch]

See, I said early Romans would be SW Europeans. I'm repeating it for months here: Southern Europe was once mostly Iberian/North Italian like. Look at how Anatolian admixture decreased and other components increased with the passage from Republican to Imperial Era.

The most EEF/Anatolian admixed mainland Euros are the North Italians and Iberians.
Well done on predicting that thing everybody already knew :rolleyes:

Only today

False. Romans were mostly like modern South Italians.
Most of the Eastern Mediterranean DNA in ancient Romans and modern South Italians came from Aegean sources, not direct admixture from the Middle East.

[savvas]

Bow down to the Portuguese-Piedmontese-Western Lombard-Swiss Italian master race. WE WUZ FUCKING ROMANS HAHAHAHA. Augustus was a fucking Piedmontese, can you believe it? How will greasy terroni and snowniggers cope?

https://i.imgur.com/eYXR3WG.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/gEjDgol.png

[Calpurnius]

Now that I'm looking more deeply, it seems this iron age individual from Croatia is dated only to 805-761 calBCE, supplementary info, page 24. Which sample is this?

The only well-fit one-way model is with an Iron Age individual from Croatia dated to 805-761 calBCE,
suggesting that this individual form a clade with Iron Age central Italians, with respect to all the
populations in the “right” set (ANC17). This result, together with those for Neolithic and Copper Age
individuals, points to tight connections between Italy and the Balkans from Neolithic to Iron Ages.

[Samnium]

They sampled a trading center, no surprise there for the genetic results

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/638825419436720148/642104910619475978/unknown.png

[Dna8]

Bow down to the Portuguese-Piedmontese-Western Lombard-Swiss Italian master race. WE WUZ FUCKING ROMANS HAHAHAHA. Augustus was a fucking Piedmontese, can you believe it? How will greasy terroni and snowniggers cope?

https://i.imgur.com/eYXR3WG.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/gEjDgol.png

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/image.php?u=22316&dateline=1567078154

[Samnium]

Bow down to the Portuguese-Piedmontese-Western Lombard-Swiss Italian master race. WE WUZ FUCKING ROMANS HAHAHAHA. Augustus was a fucking Piedmontese, can you believe it? How will greasy terroni and snowniggers cope?

https://i.imgur.com/eYXR3WG.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/gEjDgol.png

Honestly I had noticed that a lot of Roman busts were highly west-influenced. Some people laughed at my analysis but it's confirmed to be true, also it destroys nordicist theories.

[savvas]

Bow down to the Portuguese-Piedmontese-Western Lombard-Swiss Italian master race. WE WUZ FUCKING ROMANS HAHAHAHA. Augustus was a fucking Piedmontese, can you believe it? How will greasy terroni and snowniggers cope?

https://i.imgur.com/eYXR3WG.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/gEjDgol.png

Early Romans possibly closer to NORTH GERMANS than to fucking terroni.

Results of a Piedmontese from Borgo San Dalmazzo (Early Romans seems to plot with North-Western Italians and Portuguese on the map):

Borgo San Dalmazzo 1

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 30.35
2 Atlantic 22.46
3 West_Med 20.55
4 East_Med 10.14
5 Baltic 4.89
6 West_Asian 4.31
7 Red_Sea 2.82
8 Eastern_Euro 2.76
9 Amerindian 0.97
10 South_Asian 0.76

Single Population Sharing:


# Population (source) Distance
1 Spanish_Galicia 7.52
2 French 7.75
3 Portuguese 8.92
4 Spanish_Cataluna 9.98
5 Spanish_Extremadura 10.79
6 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 11.1
7 Spanish_Murcia 11.36
8 West_German 11.87
9 South_Dutch 12.68
10 North_Italian 12.75
11 Spanish_Cantabria 13.1
12 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 14.28
13 Spanish_Valencia 14.28
14 Southwest_English 14.58
15 Spanish_Andalucia 15.04
16 Spanish_Aragon 15.38
17 Southwest_French 15.5
18 Southeast_English 16.21
19 Tuscan 17.38
20 North_German 18.27

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 76% West_German + 24% Sardinian @ 5.61
2 68.2% Spanish_Galicia + 31.8% West_German @ 5.76
3 82.1% Spanish_Galicia + 17.9% West_Norwegian @ 6.11
4 61.2% Portuguese + 38.8% West_German @ 6.19
5 80.5% Spanish_Galicia + 19.5% Orcadian @ 6.25
6 65.6% Orcadian + 34.4% Sardinian @ 6.27
7 88.1% French + 11.9% Sardinian @ 6.33
8 52.5% Spanish_Galicia + 47.5% French @ 6.37
9 82.8% Spanish_Galicia + 17.2% Norwegian @ 6.38
10 82.1% Spanish_Galicia + 17.9% North_Dutch @ 6.51
11 77.6% Spanish_Galicia + 22.4% Southwest_English @ 6.52
12 84.4% Spanish_Galicia + 15.6% Swedish @ 6.52
13 62.3% West_Norwegian + 37.7% Sardinian @ 6.58
14 80.5% Spanish_Galicia + 19.5% Southeast_English @ 6.61
15 53.6% Spanish_Extremadura + 46.4% West_German @ 6.64
16 83.4% Spanish_Galicia + 16.6% West_Scottish @ 6.66
17 83.6% Spanish_Galicia + 16.4% Danish @ 6.68
18 77.1% Portuguese + 22.9% West_Norwegian @ 6.68
19 83.7% Spanish_Galicia + 16.3% Irish @ 6.74
20 60.8% French + 39.2% Portuguese @ 6.81

[Voskos]

I see some T haplogroup from the iron age onwards. My surname is said to have originated in Venice and I am myself a T Y-DNA carrier.

[Jana]

I see some T haplogroup from the iron age onwards. My surname is said to have originated in Venice and I am myself a T Y-DNA carrier.

That is pretty cool. :)

[savvas]

Bow down to the Portuguese-Piedmontese-Western Lombard-Swiss Italian master race. WE WUZ FUCKING ROMANS HAHAHAHA. Augustus was a fucking Piedmontese, can you believe it? How will greasy terroni and snowniggers cope?


The language of Augustus HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zofiWgTSGR0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uy-Pv0Qw_ig

[Dick]

Will these samples be on global 25(without outliers,those are misleading I just remove them when I run calcs)

[Adamm]

So what is the conclusion of this study? I cannot download it....

[Dna8]

I see some T haplogroup from the iron age onwards. My surname is said to have originated in Venice and I am myself a T Y-DNA carrier.

I am not being disingenuous, but is it possible that your surname is of Balkan Romance, rather than Venetian origin?

Or is it a case of your family having a clear connection to Venice?

Just curious.

Just a Vlach aficionado.

[vbnetkhio]

Now that I'm looking more deeply, it seems this iron age individual from Croatia is dated only to 805-761 calBCE, supplementary info, page 24. Which sample is this?

those two i posted are the only ones currently available. maybe it's a new one.

[Calpurnius]

I've just done the Y snps calls for the Iron age sample R437, seems like he may be positive for R-L2.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/84/37/15/843715dc8df805af6916250033775132.jpg
1 A0-T L1121 D
2 A0-T L1123 D
3 A0-T L1124 D
4 A0-T L1125 D
5 A0-T L1127 D
6 A0-T L1130 D
7 A0-T L1135 D
8 A0-T L1136 D
9 A0-T L1142 D
10 A0-T L1150 D
11 A0-T L1155 D
12 A0-T L1085 D
13 A0-T L1101 D
14 A0-T L1105 D
15 A00 FGC26381 D
16 A00 FGC26568 D
17 A00 FGC25494 D
18 A1 L1004 D
19 A1 P305 D
20 A1 V238 D
21 A1 V241 D
22 A1 L986 D
23 A1 L1112 D
24 A1b Z11918 D
25 A1b FGC8027 D
26 A1b M11301 D
27 A1b Z11919 D
28 A1b Z17895 D
29 A1b Z17896 D
30 A1b L1053 D
31 A1b Z11893 D
32 A1b Z17897 D
33 A1b Z17898 D
34 A1b Z11913 D
35 A1b Z11897 D
36 A1b Z11902 D
37 A1b Z11895 D
38 A1b Z11892 D
39 A1b Z11907 D
40 A1b Z11915 D
41 A1b Z17900 D
42 A1b Z11896 D
43 A1b Z11914 D
44 A1b Z11901 D
45 A1b Z11909 D
46 A1b Z17892 D
47 A1b V221 D
48 A1b Z11903 D
49 B2b1a~ M8503 D
50 B2b1a1~ M8367 D
51 B3~ Z5816 D
52 B3~ Z5280 D
53 BT L418 D
54 BT Z40376 D
55 BT Z40398 D
56 BT Z40378 D
57 BT Z40400 D
58 BT Z40379 D
59 BT Z40380 D
60 BT Z17371 D
61 BT Z40381 D
62 BT Y8488 D
63 BT Z40402 D
64 BT Y8316 D
65 BT Z40382 D
66 BT M9079 D
67 BT M9080 D
68 BT M9081 D
69 BT M9083 D
70 BT M9087 D
71 BT M9089 D
72 BT M9094 D
73 BT M9095 D
74 BT M9097 D
75 BT M9098 D
76 BT M9103 D
77 BT M9105 D
78 BT M9109 D
79 BT M9110 D
80 BT M9111 D
81 BT M9112 D
82 BT M9115 D
83 BT M9116 D
84 BT M9121 D
85 BT M251 D
86 BT M9123 D
87 BT M9126 D
88 BT Z40383 D
89 BT Z40392 D
90 BT M9135 D
91 BT M9138 D
92 BT M9140 D
93 BT M9143 D
94 BT M9146 D
95 BT M9152 D
96 BT M9156 D
97 BT M9159 D
98 BT M9163 D
99 BT M9165 D
100 BT M9166 D
101 BT M9169 D
102 BT M9174 D
103 BT M9176 D
104 BT M9178 D
105 BT Y8489 D
106 BT M9182 D
107 BT M9189 D
108 BT V59 D
109 BT M9196 D
110 BT M9197 D
111 BT M9198 D
112 BT M9199 D
113 BT V64 D
114 BT M9210 D
115 BT L1220 D
116 BT M9215 D
117 BT M9216 D
118 BT M9217 D
119 BT M9218 D
120 BT L962 D
121 BT M9219 D
122 BT M9223 D
123 BT M9225 D
124 BT M9235 D
125 BT M9237 D
126 BT M9238 D
127 BT M9239 D
128 BT M9240 D
129 BT M9244 D
130 BT M9245 D
131 BT M9246 D
132 BT M9248 D
133 BT M9252 D
134 BT M9253 D
135 BT M9254 D
136 BT M9255 D
137 BT M9258 D
138 BT M9261 D
139 BT M9262 D
140 BT M9263 D
141 BT M9266 D
142 BT M9267 D
143 BT M9271 D
144 BT M9278 D
145 BT M9280 D
146 BT M9283 D
147 BT M9284 D
148 BT M9286 D
149 BT M9289 D
150 BT M9292 D
151 BT M9295 D
152 BT M9296 D
153 BT Z17372 D
154 BT Z17373 D
155 BT Y8323 D
156 BT M9301 D
157 BT M9303 D
158 BT Z40406 D
159 BT L438 D
160 BT M9311 D
161 BT M9312 D
162 BT Z40407 D
163 BT M9321 D
164 BT M9322 D
165 BT M9323 D
166 BT M9326 D
167 BT M9327 D
168 BT M9328 D
169 BT M9331 D
170 BT M9335 D
171 BT M9336 D
172 BT M9340 D
173 BT M9341 D
174 BT M42 D
175 BT M94 D
176 BT M9344 D
177 BT M9347 D
178 BT M9348 D
179 BT PF1096 D
180 BT M9349 D
181 BT L440 D
182 BT M9352 D
183 BT M9357 D
184 BT M9359 D
185 BT M9360 D
186 BT M9361 D
187 BT M9365 D
188 BT M9367 D
189 BT M9368 D
190 BT M9370 D
191 BT M9373 D
192 BT Y8325 D
193 BT Z40409 D
194 BT Z12129 D
195 BT Z40412 D
196 BT M9387 D
197 BT M9389 D
198 BT M9390 D
199 BT M9394 D
200 BT M9397 D
201 BT M9398 D
202 BT M9406 D
203 BT M9408 D
204 BT Z17388 D
205 BT Z17389 D
206 BT L1071 D
207 BT M8947 D
208 BT V187 D
209 BT M8951 D
210 BT M8953 D
211 BT Z40384 D
212 BT M8954 D
213 BT M8956 D
214 BT M8959 D
215 BT M8968 D
216 BT M8969 D
217 BT M8970 D
218 BT V29 D
219 BT M8971 D
220 BT Z17366 D
221 BT M8976 D
222 BT Y8310 D
223 BT M8977 D
224 BT M8980 D
225 BT M8983 D
226 BT Z40386 D
227 BT M8993 D
228 BT V235 D
229 BT M8994 D
230 BT M8999 D
231 BT M9003 D
232 BT M9005 D
233 BT M9006 D
234 BT M9009 D
235 BT Z40387 D
236 BT M9011 D
237 BT M9017 D
238 BT M9020 D
239 BT M9025 D
240 BT M9027 D
241 BT M9028 D
242 BT M9030 D
243 BT M9031 D
244 BT L1062 D
245 BT M9038 D
246 BT M9039 D
247 BT M9041 D
248 BT M9042 D
249 BT M9046 D
250 BT Z40390 D
251 BT Y8311 D
252 BT Y8314 D
253 BT M9056 D
254 BT M9057 D
255 BT M11760 D
256 BT M9066 D
257 BT Z40373 D
258 C1a1~ CTS3368 D
259 C1a2 Y11490 D
260 C1a2a Y11412 D
261 C1b1a2a Z32444 D
262 C1b2c~ Z40427 D
263 C2 F1191 D
264 C2c1 CTS6145 D
265 CF CTS6376 D
266 CT Y1791 D
267 CT Z17714 D
268 CT PF629 D
269 CT M5647 D
270 CT M5648 D
271 CT M5649 D
272 CT L957 D
273 CT M5650 D
274 CT CTS1996 D
275 CT M5652 D
276 CT CTS2711 D
277 CT CTS3120 D
278 CT M168 D
279 CT CTS3431 D
280 CT CTS3460 D
281 CT M5675 D
282 CT CTS4364 D
283 CT CTS4368 D
284 CT M5682 D
285 CT M5691 D
286 CT M5695 D
287 CT M5698 D
288 CT CTS6327 D
289 CT CTS6383 D
290 CT M5712 D
291 CT M5716 D
292 CT M5723 D
293 CT M5724 D
294 CT CTS7741 D
295 CT M5726 D
296 CT M5730 D
297 CT M5734 D
298 CT CTS8243 D
299 CT M5737 D
300 CT M5738 D
301 CT FGC33852 D
302 CT M5741 D
303 CT M5742 D
304 CT CTS8542 D
305 CT M5745 D
306 CT M5747 D
307 CT CTS8980 D
308 CT M5749 D
309 CT CTS9014 D
310 CT CTS9458 D
311 CT M5756 D
312 CT CTS9556 D
313 CT M5760 D
314 CT CTS9760 D
315 CT CTS9828 D
316 CT CTS9948 D
317 CT PF970 D
318 CT CTS10110 D
319 CT M5769 D
320 CT M5771 D
321 CT CTS10512 D
322 CT M5775 D
323 CT M5776 D
324 CT M5781 D
325 CT M5785 D
326 CT M5786 D
327 CT L970 D
328 CT M5788 D
329 CT M5796 D
330 CT Y1567 D
331 CT L1492 D
332 CT PF1205 D
333 CT CTS11358 D
334 CT Z40572 D
335 CT M5814 D
336 CT CTS11827 D
337 CT M5821 D
338 CT M5822 D
339 CT M5825 D
340 CT Y1578 D
341 CT Y1580 D
342 CT M5578 D
343 CT M5585 D
344 CT L1462 D
345 CT M5590 D
346 CT M5591 D
347 CT M5593 D
348 CT Z40571 D
349 CT CTS1217 D
350 CT M5599 D
351 CT M5601 D
352 CT M5605 D
353 CT M5607 D
354 CT M5608 D
355 CT M5610 D
356 CT M5611 D
357 CT M5616 D
358 CT M5617 D
359 CT M5627 D
360 CT M5631 D
361 CT M5632 D
362 CT M5636 D
363 CT M5639 D
364 CT M5642 D
365 CT Z17706 D
366 E1b1a1a1a1c1a1a3f~ Z37359 D
367 E1b1a1a1a1c2a1 Z15995 D
368 E1b1a1a1a2a1a3b1a4 Z21828 D
369 E1b1b CTS7677 D
370 E1b1b1b1b1a2a~ FGC18958 D
371 E1b1b1b2a1b1~ Y21121 D
372 E2b1a~ Z20830 D
373 E2b1a1~ Z20852 D
374 F F1714 D
375 F F1753 D
376 F CTS3654 D
377 F M213 D
378 F F2048 D
379 F P163 D
380 F L468 D
381 F F2155 D
382 F CTS6135 D
383 F P316 D
384 F P139 D
385 F P166 D
386 F P14 D
387 F F2587 D
388 F P159 D
389 F P149 D
390 F F2837 D
391 F F2985 D
392 F P148 D
393 F F3111 D
394 F F3136 D
395 F P135 D
396 F L882 D
397 F M89 D
398 F M3750 D
399 F F3335 D
400 F M3637 D
401 F M3638 D
402 F CTS12632 D
403 F M3639 D
404 F P134 D
405 F PF2608 D
406 F F1046 D
407 F F3692 D
408 F P151 D
409 G1a1a L1327 D
410 G1b~ FGC3921.2 D
411 G2a1a1b Z43182 D
412 G2a2b1a1a FGC5173 D
413 G2a2b2a1a1b1a1e1a2~ Z43708 D
414 G2a2b2a1a1c2a FGC12140 D
415 G2a2b2a4a2~ Z40469 D
416 H1a2a Z14094 D
417 H1a2b1b Z34831 D
418 H3a Z13373 D
419 H3a2 Z12770 D
420 HIJK F929 D
421 I1a1a1a~ S4759 D
422 I1a2a1a1f~ A1610 D
423 I1a2a1a1f1~ A1598 D
424 I1a2a1a4a1a1a2a~ S14669 D
425 IJK M2696 D
426 IJK F3689 D
427 IJK M2684 D
428 K M9 D
429 K2 M526 D
430 L1a~ Z20135 D
431 O1b1a1b1 F1199 D
432 O2a1c IMS-JST002611 D
433 P FGC285 D
434 P PF5483 D
435 P F1660 D
436 P CTS1907 D
437 P CTS3135 D
438 P CTS3358 D
439 P CTS3446 D
440 P CTS3697 D
441 P CTS3736 D
442 P CTS3775 D
443 P L779 D
444 P M1216 D
445 P M1109 D
446 P CTS4944 D
447 P F313 D
448 P F332 D
449 P CTS5884 D
450 P CTS7194 D
451 P CTS7244 D
452 P CTS7481 D
453 P CTS7604 D
454 P PF5935 D
455 P M1240 D
456 P CTS9162 D
457 P F506 D
458 P CTS9604 D
459 P M1246 D
460 P F524 D
461 P CTS10085 D
462 P CTS10168 D
463 P CTS10348 D
464 P CTS10454 D
465 P M1160 D
466 P M1261 D
467 P M1262 D
468 P M1264 D
469 P F640 D
470 P L768 D
471 P CTS12028 D
472 P PF5511 D
473 P F671 D
474 P L268 D
475 P F680 D
476 P PF5985 D
477 P F4 D
478 P CTS196 D
479 P CTS216 D
480 P L471 D
481 P F29 D
482 P PF5858 D
483 P M1186 D
484 P PF5867 D
485 P F115 D
486 P M1194 D
487 P M1199 D
488 P PF5481 D
489 P1~ P230 D
490 P1~ P228 D
491 P1~ P281 D
492 P1~ P235 D
493 P1~ M74 D
494 P1~ P284 D
495 P1~ P237 D
496 P1~ P226 D
497 Q1a1b1b1~ YP4421 D
498 Q1a2a1a1a10 Z19362 D
499 Q1a2a1b1a1a~ YP873 D
500 Q1b F2593 D
501 R M207 D
502 R F295 D
503 R CTS5815 D
504 R L747 D
505 R CTS6417 D
506 R P224 D
507 R CTS8311 D
508 R F459 D
509 R CTS9005 D
510 R PF5938 D
511 R P285 D
512 R M760 D
513 R M764 D
514 R P227 D
515 R P280 D
516 R CTS10663 D
517 R L1347 D
518 R CTS11075 D
519 R P232 D
520 R F652 D
521 R F33 D
522 R F63 D
523 R F82 D
524 R M628 D
525 R F154 D
526 R M651 D
527 R1 CTS1913 D
528 R1 CTS2565 D
529 R1 CTS2908 D
530 R1 CTS3123 D
531 R1 M173 D
532 R1 CTS4075 D
533 R1 P225 D
534 R1 L875 D
535 R1 P286 D
536 R1 CTS8116 D
537 R1 P234 D
538 R1 P233 D
539 R1 M306 D
540 R1 CTS916 D
541 R1 P238 D
542 R1 F102 D
543 R1 P245 D
544 R1b1 PF6255 D
545 R1b1 CTS5676 D
546 R1b1 L278 D
547 R1b1 L780 D
548 R1b1 PF6246 D
549 R1b1 L822 D
550 R1b1 M415 D
551 R1b1a FGC36 D
552 R1b1a CTS3794 D
553 R1b1a CTS8436 D
554 R1b1a CTS8612 D
555 R1b1a CTS9972 D
556 R1b1a L820 D
557 R1b1a PF6263 D
558 R1b1a L1068 D
559 R1b1a L1345 D
560 R1b1a FGC41 D
561 R1b1a1 L389 D
562 R1b1a1a PF6451 D
563 R1b1a1a CTS3876 D
564 R1b1a1a CTS5082 D
565 R1b1a1a CTS7904 D
566 R1b1a1a CTS7941 D
567 R1b1a1a L752 D
568 R1b1a1a CTS9018 D
569 R1b1a1a PF6498 D
570 R1b1a1a PF6501 D
571 R1b1a1a PF6524 D
572 R1b1a1a FGC57 D
573 R1b1a1a1a2a Y20767 D
574 R1b1a1a2 L150.1 D
575 R1b1a1a2 PF6441 D
576 R1b1a1a2 PF6443 D
577 R1b1a1a2 L777 D
578 R1b1a1a2 M11805 D
579 R1b1a1a2 PF6448 D
580 R1b1a1a2 CTS1738 D
581 R1b1a1a2 L762 D
582 R1b1a1a2 PF6452 D
583 R1b1a1a2 CTS2466 D
584 R1b1a1a2 CTS2664 D
585 R1b1a1a2 CTS3475 D
586 R1b1a1a2 CTS3575 D
587 R1b1a1a2 PF6462 D
588 R1b1a1a2 CTS6532 D
589 R1b1a1a2 CTS8052 D
590 R1b1a1a2 CTS8336 D
591 R1b1a1a2 CTS8591 D
592 R1b1a1a2 CTS8627 D
593 R1b1a1a2 CTS8665 D
594 R1b1a1a2 CTS8728 D
595 R1b1a1a2 L500 D
596 R1b1a1a2 L757 D
597 R1b1a1a2 L1353 D
598 R1b1a1a2 PF6494 D
599 R1b1a1a2 PF6496 D
600 R1b1a1a2 PF6500 D
601 R1b1a1a2 PF6504 D
602 R1b1a1a2 PF6509 D
603 R1b1a1a2 M4435 D
604 R1b1a1a2 M269 D
605 R1b1a1a2 CTS10834 D
606 R1b1a1a2 CTS11371 D
607 R1b1a1a2 L1348 D
608 R1b1a1a2 CTS11948 D
609 R1b1a1a2 PF6527 D
610 R1b1a1a2 L1351 D
611 R1b1a1a2 CTS12972 D
612 R1b1a1a2 CTS329 D
613 R1b1a1a2 CTS623 D
614 R1b1a1a2 F69 D
615 R1b1a1a2 CTS1274 D
616 R1b1a1a2 PF6425 D
617 R1b1a1a2 PF6426 D
618 R1b1a1a2 L265 D
619 R1b1a1a2 PF6432 D
620 R1b1a1a2 L483 D
621 R1b1a1a2 PF6437 D
622 R1b1a1a2 PF6438 D
623 R1b1a1a2a1 CTS8595 D
624 R1b1a1a2a1a L52 D
625 R1b1a1a2a1a P311 D
626 R1b1a1a2a1a PF6540 D
627 R1b1a1a2a1a2 P312 D
628 R1b1a1a2a1a2b1 L2 D
629 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1a1a1a1a1~ BY192.1 D
630 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1a4b2a1d DC26 D
631 S1a1b1d Z41402 D
632 S1a3a Z41792 D

[Samnium]

I've just done the Y snps calls for the Iron age sample R437, seems like he may be positive for R-L2.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/84/37/15/843715dc8df805af6916250033775132.jpg
1 A0-T L1121 D
2 A0-T L1123 D
3 A0-T L1124 D
4 A0-T L1125 D
5 A0-T L1127 D
6 A0-T L1130 D
7 A0-T L1135 D
8 A0-T L1136 D
9 A0-T L1142 D
10 A0-T L1150 D
11 A0-T L1155 D
12 A0-T L1085 D
13 A0-T L1101 D
14 A0-T L1105 D
15 A00 FGC26381 D
16 A00 FGC26568 D
17 A00 FGC25494 D
18 A1 L1004 D
19 A1 P305 D
20 A1 V238 D
21 A1 V241 D
22 A1 L986 D
23 A1 L1112 D
24 A1b Z11918 D
25 A1b FGC8027 D
26 A1b M11301 D
27 A1b Z11919 D
28 A1b Z17895 D
29 A1b Z17896 D
30 A1b L1053 D
31 A1b Z11893 D
32 A1b Z17897 D
33 A1b Z17898 D
34 A1b Z11913 D
35 A1b Z11897 D
36 A1b Z11902 D
37 A1b Z11895 D
38 A1b Z11892 D
39 A1b Z11907 D
40 A1b Z11915 D
41 A1b Z17900 D
42 A1b Z11896 D
43 A1b Z11914 D
44 A1b Z11901 D
45 A1b Z11909 D
46 A1b Z17892 D
47 A1b V221 D
48 A1b Z11903 D
49 B2b1a~ M8503 D
50 B2b1a1~ M8367 D
51 B3~ Z5816 D
52 B3~ Z5280 D
53 BT L418 D
54 BT Z40376 D
55 BT Z40398 D
56 BT Z40378 D
57 BT Z40400 D
58 BT Z40379 D
59 BT Z40380 D
60 BT Z17371 D
61 BT Z40381 D
62 BT Y8488 D
63 BT Z40402 D
64 BT Y8316 D
65 BT Z40382 D
66 BT M9079 D
67 BT M9080 D
68 BT M9081 D
69 BT M9083 D
70 BT M9087 D
71 BT M9089 D
72 BT M9094 D
73 BT M9095 D
74 BT M9097 D
75 BT M9098 D
76 BT M9103 D
77 BT M9105 D
78 BT M9109 D
79 BT M9110 D
80 BT M9111 D
81 BT M9112 D
82 BT M9115 D
83 BT M9116 D
84 BT M9121 D
85 BT M251 D
86 BT M9123 D
87 BT M9126 D
88 BT Z40383 D
89 BT Z40392 D
90 BT M9135 D
91 BT M9138 D
92 BT M9140 D
93 BT M9143 D
94 BT M9146 D
95 BT M9152 D
96 BT M9156 D
97 BT M9159 D
98 BT M9163 D
99 BT M9165 D
100 BT M9166 D
101 BT M9169 D
102 BT M9174 D
103 BT M9176 D
104 BT M9178 D
105 BT Y8489 D
106 BT M9182 D
107 BT M9189 D
108 BT V59 D
109 BT M9196 D
110 BT M9197 D
111 BT M9198 D
112 BT M9199 D
113 BT V64 D
114 BT M9210 D
115 BT L1220 D
116 BT M9215 D
117 BT M9216 D
118 BT M9217 D
119 BT M9218 D
120 BT L962 D
121 BT M9219 D
122 BT M9223 D
123 BT M9225 D
124 BT M9235 D
125 BT M9237 D
126 BT M9238 D
127 BT M9239 D
128 BT M9240 D
129 BT M9244 D
130 BT M9245 D
131 BT M9246 D
132 BT M9248 D
133 BT M9252 D
134 BT M9253 D
135 BT M9254 D
136 BT M9255 D
137 BT M9258 D
138 BT M9261 D
139 BT M9262 D
140 BT M9263 D
141 BT M9266 D
142 BT M9267 D
143 BT M9271 D
144 BT M9278 D
145 BT M9280 D
146 BT M9283 D
147 BT M9284 D
148 BT M9286 D
149 BT M9289 D
150 BT M9292 D
151 BT M9295 D
152 BT M9296 D
153 BT Z17372 D
154 BT Z17373 D
155 BT Y8323 D
156 BT M9301 D
157 BT M9303 D
158 BT Z40406 D
159 BT L438 D
160 BT M9311 D
161 BT M9312 D
162 BT Z40407 D
163 BT M9321 D
164 BT M9322 D
165 BT M9323 D
166 BT M9326 D
167 BT M9327 D
168 BT M9328 D
169 BT M9331 D
170 BT M9335 D
171 BT M9336 D
172 BT M9340 D
173 BT M9341 D
174 BT M42 D
175 BT M94 D
176 BT M9344 D
177 BT M9347 D
178 BT M9348 D
179 BT PF1096 D
180 BT M9349 D
181 BT L440 D
182 BT M9352 D
183 BT M9357 D
184 BT M9359 D
185 BT M9360 D
186 BT M9361 D
187 BT M9365 D
188 BT M9367 D
189 BT M9368 D
190 BT M9370 D
191 BT M9373 D
192 BT Y8325 D
193 BT Z40409 D
194 BT Z12129 D
195 BT Z40412 D
196 BT M9387 D
197 BT M9389 D
198 BT M9390 D
199 BT M9394 D
200 BT M9397 D
201 BT M9398 D
202 BT M9406 D
203 BT M9408 D
204 BT Z17388 D
205 BT Z17389 D
206 BT L1071 D
207 BT M8947 D
208 BT V187 D
209 BT M8951 D
210 BT M8953 D
211 BT Z40384 D
212 BT M8954 D
213 BT M8956 D
214 BT M8959 D
215 BT M8968 D
216 BT M8969 D
217 BT M8970 D
218 BT V29 D
219 BT M8971 D
220 BT Z17366 D
221 BT M8976 D
222 BT Y8310 D
223 BT M8977 D
224 BT M8980 D
225 BT M8983 D
226 BT Z40386 D
227 BT M8993 D
228 BT V235 D
229 BT M8994 D
230 BT M8999 D
231 BT M9003 D
232 BT M9005 D
233 BT M9006 D
234 BT M9009 D
235 BT Z40387 D
236 BT M9011 D
237 BT M9017 D
238 BT M9020 D
239 BT M9025 D
240 BT M9027 D
241 BT M9028 D
242 BT M9030 D
243 BT M9031 D
244 BT L1062 D
245 BT M9038 D
246 BT M9039 D
247 BT M9041 D
248 BT M9042 D
249 BT M9046 D
250 BT Z40390 D
251 BT Y8311 D
252 BT Y8314 D
253 BT M9056 D
254 BT M9057 D
255 BT M11760 D
256 BT M9066 D
257 BT Z40373 D
258 C1a1~ CTS3368 D
259 C1a2 Y11490 D
260 C1a2a Y11412 D
261 C1b1a2a Z32444 D
262 C1b2c~ Z40427 D
263 C2 F1191 D
264 C2c1 CTS6145 D
265 CF CTS6376 D
266 CT Y1791 D
267 CT Z17714 D
268 CT PF629 D
269 CT M5647 D
270 CT M5648 D
271 CT M5649 D
272 CT L957 D
273 CT M5650 D
274 CT CTS1996 D
275 CT M5652 D
276 CT CTS2711 D
277 CT CTS3120 D
278 CT M168 D
279 CT CTS3431 D
280 CT CTS3460 D
281 CT M5675 D
282 CT CTS4364 D
283 CT CTS4368 D
284 CT M5682 D
285 CT M5691 D
286 CT M5695 D
287 CT M5698 D
288 CT CTS6327 D
289 CT CTS6383 D
290 CT M5712 D
291 CT M5716 D
292 CT M5723 D
293 CT M5724 D
294 CT CTS7741 D
295 CT M5726 D
296 CT M5730 D
297 CT M5734 D
298 CT CTS8243 D
299 CT M5737 D
300 CT M5738 D
301 CT FGC33852 D
302 CT M5741 D
303 CT M5742 D
304 CT CTS8542 D
305 CT M5745 D
306 CT M5747 D
307 CT CTS8980 D
308 CT M5749 D
309 CT CTS9014 D
310 CT CTS9458 D
311 CT M5756 D
312 CT CTS9556 D
313 CT M5760 D
314 CT CTS9760 D
315 CT CTS9828 D
316 CT CTS9948 D
317 CT PF970 D
318 CT CTS10110 D
319 CT M5769 D
320 CT M5771 D
321 CT CTS10512 D
322 CT M5775 D
323 CT M5776 D
324 CT M5781 D
325 CT M5785 D
326 CT M5786 D
327 CT L970 D
328 CT M5788 D
329 CT M5796 D
330 CT Y1567 D
331 CT L1492 D
332 CT PF1205 D
333 CT CTS11358 D
334 CT Z40572 D
335 CT M5814 D
336 CT CTS11827 D
337 CT M5821 D
338 CT M5822 D
339 CT M5825 D
340 CT Y1578 D
341 CT Y1580 D
342 CT M5578 D
343 CT M5585 D
344 CT L1462 D
345 CT M5590 D
346 CT M5591 D
347 CT M5593 D
348 CT Z40571 D
349 CT CTS1217 D
350 CT M5599 D
351 CT M5601 D
352 CT M5605 D
353 CT M5607 D
354 CT M5608 D
355 CT M5610 D
356 CT M5611 D
357 CT M5616 D
358 CT M5617 D
359 CT M5627 D
360 CT M5631 D
361 CT M5632 D
362 CT M5636 D
363 CT M5639 D
364 CT M5642 D
365 CT Z17706 D
366 E1b1a1a1a1c1a1a3f~ Z37359 D
367 E1b1a1a1a1c2a1 Z15995 D
368 E1b1a1a1a2a1a3b1a4 Z21828 D
369 E1b1b CTS7677 D
370 E1b1b1b1b1a2a~ FGC18958 D
371 E1b1b1b2a1b1~ Y21121 D
372 E2b1a~ Z20830 D
373 E2b1a1~ Z20852 D
374 F F1714 D
375 F F1753 D
376 F CTS3654 D
377 F M213 D
378 F F2048 D
379 F P163 D
380 F L468 D
381 F F2155 D
382 F CTS6135 D
383 F P316 D
384 F P139 D
385 F P166 D
386 F P14 D
387 F F2587 D
388 F P159 D
389 F P149 D
390 F F2837 D
391 F F2985 D
392 F P148 D
393 F F3111 D
394 F F3136 D
395 F P135 D
396 F L882 D
397 F M89 D
398 F M3750 D
399 F F3335 D
400 F M3637 D
401 F M3638 D
402 F CTS12632 D
403 F M3639 D
404 F P134 D
405 F PF2608 D
406 F F1046 D
407 F F3692 D
408 F P151 D
409 G1a1a L1327 D
410 G1b~ FGC3921.2 D
411 G2a1a1b Z43182 D
412 G2a2b1a1a FGC5173 D
413 G2a2b2a1a1b1a1e1a2~ Z43708 D
414 G2a2b2a1a1c2a FGC12140 D
415 G2a2b2a4a2~ Z40469 D
416 H1a2a Z14094 D
417 H1a2b1b Z34831 D
418 H3a Z13373 D
419 H3a2 Z12770 D
420 HIJK F929 D
421 I1a1a1a~ S4759 D
422 I1a2a1a1f~ A1610 D
423 I1a2a1a1f1~ A1598 D
424 I1a2a1a4a1a1a2a~ S14669 D
425 IJK M2696 D
426 IJK F3689 D
427 IJK M2684 D
428 K M9 D
429 K2 M526 D
430 L1a~ Z20135 D
431 O1b1a1b1 F1199 D
432 O2a1c IMS-JST002611 D
433 P FGC285 D
434 P PF5483 D
435 P F1660 D
436 P CTS1907 D
437 P CTS3135 D
438 P CTS3358 D
439 P CTS3446 D
440 P CTS3697 D
441 P CTS3736 D
442 P CTS3775 D
443 P L779 D
444 P M1216 D
445 P M1109 D
446 P CTS4944 D
447 P F313 D
448 P F332 D
449 P CTS5884 D
450 P CTS7194 D
451 P CTS7244 D
452 P CTS7481 D
453 P CTS7604 D
454 P PF5935 D
455 P M1240 D
456 P CTS9162 D
457 P F506 D
458 P CTS9604 D
459 P M1246 D
460 P F524 D
461 P CTS10085 D
462 P CTS10168 D
463 P CTS10348 D
464 P CTS10454 D
465 P M1160 D
466 P M1261 D
467 P M1262 D
468 P M1264 D
469 P F640 D
470 P L768 D
471 P CTS12028 D
472 P PF5511 D
473 P F671 D
474 P L268 D
475 P F680 D
476 P PF5985 D
477 P F4 D
478 P CTS196 D
479 P CTS216 D
480 P L471 D
481 P F29 D
482 P PF5858 D
483 P M1186 D
484 P PF5867 D
485 P F115 D
486 P M1194 D
487 P M1199 D
488 P PF5481 D
489 P1~ P230 D
490 P1~ P228 D
491 P1~ P281 D
492 P1~ P235 D
493 P1~ M74 D
494 P1~ P284 D
495 P1~ P237 D
496 P1~ P226 D
497 Q1a1b1b1~ YP4421 D
498 Q1a2a1a1a10 Z19362 D
499 Q1a2a1b1a1a~ YP873 D
500 Q1b F2593 D
501 R M207 D
502 R F295 D
503 R CTS5815 D
504 R L747 D
505 R CTS6417 D
506 R P224 D
507 R CTS8311 D
508 R F459 D
509 R CTS9005 D
510 R PF5938 D
511 R P285 D
512 R M760 D
513 R M764 D
514 R P227 D
515 R P280 D
516 R CTS10663 D
517 R L1347 D
518 R CTS11075 D
519 R P232 D
520 R F652 D
521 R F33 D
522 R F63 D
523 R F82 D
524 R M628 D
525 R F154 D
526 R M651 D
527 R1 CTS1913 D
528 R1 CTS2565 D
529 R1 CTS2908 D
530 R1 CTS3123 D
531 R1 M173 D
532 R1 CTS4075 D
533 R1 P225 D
534 R1 L875 D
535 R1 P286 D
536 R1 CTS8116 D
537 R1 P234 D
538 R1 P233 D
539 R1 M306 D
540 R1 CTS916 D
541 R1 P238 D
542 R1 F102 D
543 R1 P245 D
544 R1b1 PF6255 D
545 R1b1 CTS5676 D
546 R1b1 L278 D
547 R1b1 L780 D
548 R1b1 PF6246 D
549 R1b1 L822 D
550 R1b1 M415 D
551 R1b1a FGC36 D
552 R1b1a CTS3794 D
553 R1b1a CTS8436 D
554 R1b1a CTS8612 D
555 R1b1a CTS9972 D
556 R1b1a L820 D
557 R1b1a PF6263 D
558 R1b1a L1068 D
559 R1b1a L1345 D
560 R1b1a FGC41 D
561 R1b1a1 L389 D
562 R1b1a1a PF6451 D
563 R1b1a1a CTS3876 D
564 R1b1a1a CTS5082 D
565 R1b1a1a CTS7904 D
566 R1b1a1a CTS7941 D
567 R1b1a1a L752 D
568 R1b1a1a CTS9018 D
569 R1b1a1a PF6498 D
570 R1b1a1a PF6501 D
571 R1b1a1a PF6524 D
572 R1b1a1a FGC57 D
573 R1b1a1a1a2a Y20767 D
574 R1b1a1a2 L150.1 D
575 R1b1a1a2 PF6441 D
576 R1b1a1a2 PF6443 D
577 R1b1a1a2 L777 D
578 R1b1a1a2 M11805 D
579 R1b1a1a2 PF6448 D
580 R1b1a1a2 CTS1738 D
581 R1b1a1a2 L762 D
582 R1b1a1a2 PF6452 D
583 R1b1a1a2 CTS2466 D
584 R1b1a1a2 CTS2664 D
585 R1b1a1a2 CTS3475 D
586 R1b1a1a2 CTS3575 D
587 R1b1a1a2 PF6462 D
588 R1b1a1a2 CTS6532 D
589 R1b1a1a2 CTS8052 D
590 R1b1a1a2 CTS8336 D
591 R1b1a1a2 CTS8591 D
592 R1b1a1a2 CTS8627 D
593 R1b1a1a2 CTS8665 D
594 R1b1a1a2 CTS8728 D
595 R1b1a1a2 L500 D
596 R1b1a1a2 L757 D
597 R1b1a1a2 L1353 D
598 R1b1a1a2 PF6494 D
599 R1b1a1a2 PF6496 D
600 R1b1a1a2 PF6500 D
601 R1b1a1a2 PF6504 D
602 R1b1a1a2 PF6509 D
603 R1b1a1a2 M4435 D
604 R1b1a1a2 M269 D
605 R1b1a1a2 CTS10834 D
606 R1b1a1a2 CTS11371 D
607 R1b1a1a2 L1348 D
608 R1b1a1a2 CTS11948 D
609 R1b1a1a2 PF6527 D
610 R1b1a1a2 L1351 D
611 R1b1a1a2 CTS12972 D
612 R1b1a1a2 CTS329 D
613 R1b1a1a2 CTS623 D
614 R1b1a1a2 F69 D
615 R1b1a1a2 CTS1274 D
616 R1b1a1a2 PF6425 D
617 R1b1a1a2 PF6426 D
618 R1b1a1a2 L265 D
619 R1b1a1a2 PF6432 D
620 R1b1a1a2 L483 D
621 R1b1a1a2 PF6437 D
622 R1b1a1a2 PF6438 D
623 R1b1a1a2a1 CTS8595 D
624 R1b1a1a2a1a L52 D
625 R1b1a1a2a1a P311 D
626 R1b1a1a2a1a PF6540 D
627 R1b1a1a2a1a2 P312 D
628 R1b1a1a2a1a2b1 L2 D
629 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1a1a1a1a1~ BY192.1 D
630 R1b1a1a2a1a2c1a4b2a1d DC26 D
631 S1a1b1d Z41402 D
632 S1a3a Z41792 D


The area in Calabria in much elevated red is the area of my calabrian ancestors !

This confirms that south Cosenza area was very influenced by Italic people

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/638825419436720148/642118481076158464/unknown.png (red dot is the localisation of the villages of my calabrian ancestors, actually a bit more southern on the map but you get the idea)

http://www.vacances-location.net/locations-vacances/small-map-town/cosenza/marzi.png

[Calpurnius]

R851 btw may also be L2.
1 A0-T L1120 D
2 A0-T L1121 D
3 A0-T L1123 D
4 A0-T L1125 D
5 A0-T L1127 D
6 A0-T L1135 D
7 A0-T L1137 D
8 A0-T L1142 D
9 A0-T L1143 D
10 A0-T L1150 D
11 A0-T L1085 D
12 A0-T L1105 D
13 A1 L1002 D
14 A1 V168 D
15 A1 P305 D
16 A1 L986 D
17 A1 L1112 D
18 A1b Z11918 D
19 A1b Z11891 D
20 A1b L1053 D
21 A1b Z11893 D
22 A1b L1013 D
23 A1b Z17899 D
24 A1b Z11895 D
25 A1b Z11892 D
26 A1b Z11915 D
27 A1b L989 D
28 A1b Z11914 D
29 A1b Z11901 D
30 A1b V221 D
31 B2b1a2a~ Z38009 D
32 B3~ Z5387 D
33 B3~ Z5250 D
34 BT L418 D
35 BT Z40375 D
36 BT Z40376 D
37 BT Z40378 D
38 BT Z40400 D
39 BT Z40379 D
40 BT Z17371 D
41 BT Z40381 D
42 BT Y8488 D
43 BT Y8316 D
44 BT Z40382 D
45 BT M9079 D
46 BT M9081 D
47 BT M9094 D
48 BT M9105 D
49 BT M9109 D
50 BT M9110 D
51 BT M9113 D
52 BT M9116 D
53 BT M9121 D
54 BT M9123 D
55 BT M9133 D
56 BT M9136 D
57 BT M9140 D
58 BT M9141 D
59 BT M9148 D
60 BT M9152 D
61 BT M9156 D
62 BT M9157 D
63 BT M9159 D
64 BT M9173 D
65 BT M9174 D
66 BT M9176 D
67 BT Y8489 D
68 BT Z40393 D
69 BT M9195 D
70 BT M9197 D
71 BT M9198 D
72 BT M9199 D
73 BT M9202 D
74 BT M9209 D
75 BT L1220 D
76 BT M9214 D
77 BT M9215 D
78 BT M9218 D
79 BT M9219 D
80 BT M9231 D
81 BT M9237 D
82 BT Y8319 D
83 BT M9244 D
84 BT M9246 D
85 BT M9248 D
86 BT M9252 D
87 BT M9255 D
88 BT M9258 D
89 BT M9263 D
90 BT M9277 D
91 BT M9293 D
92 BT M9303 D
93 BT M9311 D
94 BT M9317 D
95 BT Z40407 D
96 BT M9322 D
97 BT M9328 D
98 BT M9335 D
99 BT M9340 D
100 BT M9341 D
101 BT M42 D
102 BT M94 D
103 BT Z17385 D
104 BT M9356 D
105 BT M9370 D
106 BT M9376 D
107 BT M9378 D
108 BT Y8325 D
109 BT Z40411 D
110 BT Z40412 D
111 BT M9380 D
112 BT M9405 D
113 BT Z17388 D
114 BT L1071 D
115 BT M8951 D
116 BT Z40384 D
117 BT M8968 D
118 BT M8969 D
119 BT M8970 D
120 BT V29 D
121 BT L413 D
122 BT M8971 D
123 BT Z17366 D
124 BT Y8310 D
125 BT M8977 D
126 BT M8993 D
127 BT M8994 D
128 BT M8995 D
129 BT M8997 D
130 BT M8999 D
131 BT M9005 D
132 BT M9006 D
133 BT M9009 D
134 BT M9011 D
135 BT M9019 D
136 BT M9021 D
137 BT M9028 D
138 BT M9036 D
139 BT M9038 D
140 BT M9042 D
141 BT M9046 D
142 BT M9056 D
143 BT M9057 D
144 C1a2 Y11420 D
145 C1b1a1a1a1a1a1a K466 D
146 C1b1a2a FGC24157.2 D
147 C2 CTS8325 D
148 CT Z17707 D
149 CT Z17714 D
150 CT M5648 D
151 CT M5649 D
152 CT L957 D
153 CT CTS1996 D
154 CT M5652 D
155 CT CTS3460 D
156 CT CTS3662 D
157 CT M5691 D
158 CT M5692 D
159 CT CTS5532 D
160 CT CTS6327 D
161 CT M5712 D
162 CT CTS6890 D
163 CT M5717 D
164 CT CTS7295 D
165 CT CTS7517 D
166 CT M5723 D
167 CT CTS7933 D
168 CT CTS8243 D
169 CT FGC33852 D
170 CT M5741 D
171 CT CTS8542 D
172 CT M5745 D
173 CT M5747 D
174 CT M5749 D
175 CT CTS9555 D
176 CT CTS9556 D
177 CT M5762 D
178 CT CTS9828 D
179 CT PF970 D
180 CT CTS10512 D
181 CT M5775 D
182 CT M5776 D
183 CT M5781 D
184 CT L970 D
185 CT M5794 D
186 CT M5801 D
187 CT L977 D
188 CT M5821 D
189 CT M5825 D
190 CT PF1337 D
191 CT M5578 D
192 CT CTS423 D
193 CT CTS543 D
194 CT M5585 D
195 CT M5588 D
196 CT CTS1181 D
197 CT M5605 D
198 CT M5608 D
199 CT M5611 D
200 CT M5613 D
201 CT M5615 D
202 CT M5622 D
203 CT M5627 D
204 CT M5629 D
205 CT M5631 D
206 CT M5633 D
207 CT M5636 D
208 D1a1a1a1a2 Z43912 D
209 D1a1a2a~ Z40984 D
210 D1a1a2a1 Z41214 D
211 D2 FGC9047 D
212 D2 Z29927 D
213 E1a CTS10567 D
214 E1b1a1a1a2a1a3a2a Z21714 D
215 E1b1b1b1af1b~ A428 D
216 F P138 D
217 F F1767 D
218 F CTS3536 D
219 F CTS3654 D
220 F P163 D
221 F L468 D
222 F F2155 D
223 F CTS6135 D
224 F P139 D
225 F F2402 D
226 F P140 D
227 F P14 D
228 F P158 D
229 F F2587 D
230 F F2688 D
231 F P159 D
232 F L470 D
233 F F2985 D
234 F P148 D
235 F P135 D
236 F M89 D
237 F M3751 D
238 F M3752 D
239 F P157 D
240 F M3637 D
241 F M3639 D
242 F P145 D
243 F P146 D
244 G2a2a1a1b FGC6704 D
245 G2a2b2a1a1b1a1f~ Z39864 D
246 G2a2b2a1a1c1a1a Z5854 D
247 G2a2b2a1a1c1a1b1a1a FGC250 D
248 H1a2b1a Z14341 D
249 H3a1 Z13039 D
250 I1a1a1a~ S4759 D
251 I1a2a1a4a1a1a2a~ S14669 D
252 I1c AMM439 D
253 J CTS3936 D
254 K~ P128 D
255 L1a1a2b~ Z42483 D
256 N1a1a1a1a1a1a2a1~ L58 D
257 N1b2 M1786 D
258 P FGC285 D
259 P PF5887 D
260 P CTS3135 D
261 P M1207 D
262 P CTS3358 D
263 P CTS3446 D
264 P CTS4944 D
265 P CTS5418 D
266 P CTS5673 D
267 P F359 D
268 P CTS7194 D
269 P CTS7481 D
270 P CTS7886 D
271 P CTS8626 D
272 P CTS9162 D
273 P CTS10081 D
274 P CTS10085 D
275 P M1258 D
276 P M1264 D
277 P L768 D
278 P L268 D
279 P PF5985 D
280 P F4 D
281 P CTS216 D
282 P CTS12648 D
283 P F91 D
284 P M1188 D
285 P M1192 D
286 P L721 D
287 P M1195 D
288 P F180 D
289 P PF5882 D
290 P M1199 D
291 P PF5481 D
292 P1~ F1857 D
293 P1~ P239 D
294 P1~ P281 D
295 P1~ P235 D
296 P1~ M45 D
297 P1~ M74 D
298 P1~ P283 D
299 Q1a2a1b1a1a1c~ BZ2610 D
300 Q1a2b2a~ FGC6860 D
301 R F295 D
302 R FGC1168 D
303 R P224 D
304 R CTS9005 D
305 R P285 D
306 R P280 D
307 R CTS10663 D
308 R CTS11075 D
309 R CTS207 D
310 R F47 D
311 R F154 D
312 R M651 D
313 R1 CTS2565 D
314 R1 CTS2680 D
315 R1 CTS2908 D
316 R1 CTS5611 D
317 R1 P238 D
318 R1 P245 D
319 R1 P231 D
320 R1b1 CTS2134 D
321 R1b1 L278 D
322 R1b1 L506 D
323 R1b1 PF6272 D
324 R1b1a CTS8436 D
325 R1b1a FGC35 D
326 R1b1a CTS9972 D
327 R1b1a L820 D
328 R1b1a L1345 D
329 R1b1a PF6271 D
330 R1b1a PF6249 D
331 R1b1a1a PF6459 D
332 R1b1a1a CTS5082 D
333 R1b1a1a CTS9018 D
334 R1b1a1a PF6498 D
335 R1b1a1a FGC57 D
336 R1b1a1a2 L150.1 D
337 R1b1a1a2 L777 D
338 R1b1a1a2 CTS1738 D
339 R1b1a1a2 PF6452 D
340 R1b1a1a2 CTS2664 D
341 R1b1a1a2 CTS3475 D
342 R1b1a1a2 CTS4608 D
343 R1b1a1a2 PF6462 D
344 R1b1a1a2 E101 D
345 R1b1a1a2 CTS7400 D
346 R1b1a1a2 CTS7659 D
347 R1b1a1a2 CTS8052 D
348 R1b1a1a2 CTS8336 D
349 R1b1a1a2 L749 D
350 R1b1a1a2 CTS8591 D
351 R1b1a1a2 L500 D
352 R1b1a1a2 PF6482 D
353 R1b1a1a2 L757 D
354 R1b1a1a2 L1353 D
355 R1b1a1a2 PF6494 D
356 R1b1a1a2 PF6497 D
357 R1b1a1a2 PF6500 D
358 R1b1a1a2 L1350 D
359 R1b1a1a2 PF6507 D
360 R1b1a1a2 PF6509 D
361 R1b1a1a2 M269 D
362 R1b1a1a2 CTS11371 D
363 R1b1a1a2 CTS11948 D
364 R1b1a1a2 L1351 D
365 R1b1a1a2 M520 D
366 R1b1a1a2 CTS623 D
367 R1b1a1a2 CTS894 D
368 R1b1a1a2 F69 D
369 R1b1a1a2 PF6426 D
370 R1b1a1a2 L482 D
371 R1b1a1a2 PF6428 D
372 R1b1a1a2 PF6432 D
373 R1b1a1a2 PF6433 D
374 R1b1a1a2 PF6438 D
375 R1b1a1a2a1a PF6543 D
376 R1b1a1a2a1a L11 D
377 R1b1a1a2a1a P310 D
378 R1b1a1a2a1a2b1 L2 D
379 R1b1b BY14393 D
380 S2 Z33412 D
381 T1a3b2a1b1 Y13279 D

Both 437 and 851 are associated to Latins, 437 to the Prenestini tribe.

[Samnium]

R851 btw may also be L2.
1 A0-T L1120 D
2 A0-T L1121 D
3 A0-T L1123 D
4 A0-T L1125 D
5 A0-T L1127 D
6 A0-T L1135 D
7 A0-T L1137 D
8 A0-T L1142 D
9 A0-T L1143 D
10 A0-T L1150 D
11 A0-T L1085 D
12 A0-T L1105 D
13 A1 L1002 D
14 A1 V168 D
15 A1 P305 D
16 A1 L986 D
17 A1 L1112 D
18 A1b Z11918 D
19 A1b Z11891 D
20 A1b L1053 D
21 A1b Z11893 D
22 A1b L1013 D
23 A1b Z17899 D
24 A1b Z11895 D
25 A1b Z11892 D
26 A1b Z11915 D
27 A1b L989 D
28 A1b Z11914 D
29 A1b Z11901 D
30 A1b V221 D
31 B2b1a2a~ Z38009 D
32 B3~ Z5387 D
33 B3~ Z5250 D
34 BT L418 D
35 BT Z40375 D
36 BT Z40376 D
37 BT Z40378 D
38 BT Z40400 D
39 BT Z40379 D
40 BT Z17371 D
41 BT Z40381 D
42 BT Y8488 D
43 BT Y8316 D
44 BT Z40382 D
45 BT M9079 D
46 BT M9081 D
47 BT M9094 D
48 BT M9105 D
49 BT M9109 D
50 BT M9110 D
51 BT M9113 D
52 BT M9116 D
53 BT M9121 D
54 BT M9123 D
55 BT M9133 D
56 BT M9136 D
57 BT M9140 D
58 BT M9141 D
59 BT M9148 D
60 BT M9152 D
61 BT M9156 D
62 BT M9157 D
63 BT M9159 D
64 BT M9173 D
65 BT M9174 D
66 BT M9176 D
67 BT Y8489 D
68 BT Z40393 D
69 BT M9195 D
70 BT M9197 D
71 BT M9198 D
72 BT M9199 D
73 BT M9202 D
74 BT M9209 D
75 BT L1220 D
76 BT M9214 D
77 BT M9215 D
78 BT M9218 D
79 BT M9219 D
80 BT M9231 D
81 BT M9237 D
82 BT Y8319 D
83 BT M9244 D
84 BT M9246 D
85 BT M9248 D
86 BT M9252 D
87 BT M9255 D
88 BT M9258 D
89 BT M9263 D
90 BT M9277 D
91 BT M9293 D
92 BT M9303 D
93 BT M9311 D
94 BT M9317 D
95 BT Z40407 D
96 BT M9322 D
97 BT M9328 D
98 BT M9335 D
99 BT M9340 D
100 BT M9341 D
101 BT M42 D
102 BT M94 D
103 BT Z17385 D
104 BT M9356 D
105 BT M9370 D
106 BT M9376 D
107 BT M9378 D
108 BT Y8325 D
109 BT Z40411 D
110 BT Z40412 D
111 BT M9380 D
112 BT M9405 D
113 BT Z17388 D
114 BT L1071 D
115 BT M8951 D
116 BT Z40384 D
117 BT M8968 D
118 BT M8969 D
119 BT M8970 D
120 BT V29 D
121 BT L413 D
122 BT M8971 D
123 BT Z17366 D
124 BT Y8310 D
125 BT M8977 D
126 BT M8993 D
127 BT M8994 D
128 BT M8995 D
129 BT M8997 D
130 BT M8999 D
131 BT M9005 D
132 BT M9006 D
133 BT M9009 D
134 BT M9011 D
135 BT M9019 D
136 BT M9021 D
137 BT M9028 D
138 BT M9036 D
139 BT M9038 D
140 BT M9042 D
141 BT M9046 D
142 BT M9056 D
143 BT M9057 D
144 C1a2 Y11420 D
145 C1b1a1a1a1a1a1a K466 D
146 C1b1a2a FGC24157.2 D
147 C2 CTS8325 D
148 CT Z17707 D
149 CT Z17714 D
150 CT M5648 D
151 CT M5649 D
152 CT L957 D
153 CT CTS1996 D
154 CT M5652 D
155 CT CTS3460 D
156 CT CTS3662 D
157 CT M5691 D
158 CT M5692 D
159 CT CTS5532 D
160 CT CTS6327 D
161 CT M5712 D
162 CT CTS6890 D
163 CT M5717 D
164 CT CTS7295 D
165 CT CTS7517 D
166 CT M5723 D
167 CT CTS7933 D
168 CT CTS8243 D
169 CT FGC33852 D
170 CT M5741 D
171 CT CTS8542 D
172 CT M5745 D
173 CT M5747 D
174 CT M5749 D
175 CT CTS9555 D
176 CT CTS9556 D
177 CT M5762 D
178 CT CTS9828 D
179 CT PF970 D
180 CT CTS10512 D
181 CT M5775 D
182 CT M5776 D
183 CT M5781 D
184 CT L970 D
185 CT M5794 D
186 CT M5801 D
187 CT L977 D
188 CT M5821 D
189 CT M5825 D
190 CT PF1337 D
191 CT M5578 D
192 CT CTS423 D
193 CT CTS543 D
194 CT M5585 D
195 CT M5588 D
196 CT CTS1181 D
197 CT M5605 D
198 CT M5608 D
199 CT M5611 D
200 CT M5613 D
201 CT M5615 D
202 CT M5622 D
203 CT M5627 D
204 CT M5629 D
205 CT M5631 D
206 CT M5633 D
207 CT M5636 D
208 D1a1a1a1a2 Z43912 D
209 D1a1a2a~ Z40984 D
210 D1a1a2a1 Z41214 D
211 D2 FGC9047 D
212 D2 Z29927 D
213 E1a CTS10567 D
214 E1b1a1a1a2a1a3a2a Z21714 D
215 E1b1b1b1af1b~ A428 D
216 F P138 D
217 F F1767 D
218 F CTS3536 D
219 F CTS3654 D
220 F P163 D
221 F L468 D
222 F F2155 D
223 F CTS6135 D
224 F P139 D
225 F F2402 D
226 F P140 D
227 F P14 D
228 F P158 D
229 F F2587 D
230 F F2688 D
231 F P159 D
232 F L470 D
233 F F2985 D
234 F P148 D
235 F P135 D
236 F M89 D
237 F M3751 D
238 F M3752 D
239 F P157 D
240 F M3637 D
241 F M3639 D
242 F P145 D
243 F P146 D
244 G2a2a1a1b FGC6704 D
245 G2a2b2a1a1b1a1f~ Z39864 D
246 G2a2b2a1a1c1a1a Z5854 D
247 G2a2b2a1a1c1a1b1a1a FGC250 D
248 H1a2b1a Z14341 D
249 H3a1 Z13039 D
250 I1a1a1a~ S4759 D
251 I1a2a1a4a1a1a2a~ S14669 D
252 I1c AMM439 D
253 J CTS3936 D
254 K~ P128 D
255 L1a1a2b~ Z42483 D
256 N1a1a1a1a1a1a2a1~ L58 D
257 N1b2 M1786 D
258 P FGC285 D
259 P PF5887 D
260 P CTS3135 D
261 P M1207 D
262 P CTS3358 D
263 P CTS3446 D
264 P CTS4944 D
265 P CTS5418 D
266 P CTS5673 D
267 P F359 D
268 P CTS7194 D
269 P CTS7481 D
270 P CTS7886 D
271 P CTS8626 D
272 P CTS9162 D
273 P CTS10081 D
274 P CTS10085 D
275 P M1258 D
276 P M1264 D
277 P L768 D
278 P L268 D
279 P PF5985 D
280 P F4 D
281 P CTS216 D
282 P CTS12648 D
283 P F91 D
284 P M1188 D
285 P M1192 D
286 P L721 D
287 P M1195 D
288 P F180 D
289 P PF5882 D
290 P M1199 D
291 P PF5481 D
292 P1~ F1857 D
293 P1~ P239 D
294 P1~ P281 D
295 P1~ P235 D
296 P1~ M45 D
297 P1~ M74 D
298 P1~ P283 D
299 Q1a2a1b1a1a1c~ BZ2610 D
300 Q1a2b2a~ FGC6860 D
301 R F295 D
302 R FGC1168 D
303 R P224 D
304 R CTS9005 D
305 R P285 D
306 R P280 D
307 R CTS10663 D
308 R CTS11075 D
309 R CTS207 D
310 R F47 D
311 R F154 D
312 R M651 D
313 R1 CTS2565 D
314 R1 CTS2680 D
315 R1 CTS2908 D
316 R1 CTS5611 D
317 R1 P238 D
318 R1 P245 D
319 R1 P231 D
320 R1b1 CTS2134 D
321 R1b1 L278 D
322 R1b1 L506 D
323 R1b1 PF6272 D
324 R1b1a CTS8436 D
325 R1b1a FGC35 D
326 R1b1a CTS9972 D
327 R1b1a L820 D
328 R1b1a L1345 D
329 R1b1a PF6271 D
330 R1b1a PF6249 D
331 R1b1a1a PF6459 D
332 R1b1a1a CTS5082 D
333 R1b1a1a CTS9018 D
334 R1b1a1a PF6498 D
335 R1b1a1a FGC57 D
336 R1b1a1a2 L150.1 D
337 R1b1a1a2 L777 D
338 R1b1a1a2 CTS1738 D
339 R1b1a1a2 PF6452 D
340 R1b1a1a2 CTS2664 D
341 R1b1a1a2 CTS3475 D
342 R1b1a1a2 CTS4608 D
343 R1b1a1a2 PF6462 D
344 R1b1a1a2 E101 D
345 R1b1a1a2 CTS7400 D
346 R1b1a1a2 CTS7659 D
347 R1b1a1a2 CTS8052 D
348 R1b1a1a2 CTS8336 D
349 R1b1a1a2 L749 D
350 R1b1a1a2 CTS8591 D
351 R1b1a1a2 L500 D
352 R1b1a1a2 PF6482 D
353 R1b1a1a2 L757 D
354 R1b1a1a2 L1353 D
355 R1b1a1a2 PF6494 D
356 R1b1a1a2 PF6497 D
357 R1b1a1a2 PF6500 D
358 R1b1a1a2 L1350 D
359 R1b1a1a2 PF6507 D
360 R1b1a1a2 PF6509 D
361 R1b1a1a2 M269 D
362 R1b1a1a2 CTS11371 D
363 R1b1a1a2 CTS11948 D
364 R1b1a1a2 L1351 D
365 R1b1a1a2 M520 D
366 R1b1a1a2 CTS623 D
367 R1b1a1a2 CTS894 D
368 R1b1a1a2 F69 D
369 R1b1a1a2 PF6426 D
370 R1b1a1a2 L482 D
371 R1b1a1a2 PF6428 D
372 R1b1a1a2 PF6432 D
373 R1b1a1a2 PF6433 D
374 R1b1a1a2 PF6438 D
375 R1b1a1a2a1a PF6543 D
376 R1b1a1a2a1a L11 D
377 R1b1a1a2a1a P310 D
378 R1b1a1a2a1a2b1 L2 D
379 R1b1b BY14393 D
380 S2 Z33412 D
381 T1a3b2a1b1 Y13279 D

Both 437 and 851 are associated to Latins, 437 to the Prenestini tribe.

Bruzi (or Brettii) were a mixture between Sicels (from Lazio), Lucanians and other various italics tribes (like Samnites). That would explain that this area has the same color as Northern-Central Italy provinces.

Some months ago I found that :


https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/490553013124202496/632944290938617897/unknown.png

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/490553013124202496/632943678658183219/unknown.png

[Lemgrant]

So what is the conclusion of this study? I cannot download it....

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/suppl/2019/11/06/366.6466.708.DC1/aay6826_Antonio_SM.pdf

https://i.imgur.com/SURL1CT.png
https://i.imgur.com/umyPTxV.png
https://i.imgur.com/0LYKuiA.png
https://i.imgur.com/4b34OzF.png
https://i.imgur.com/Ebf6snV.png
https://i.imgur.com/8uJyg5T.png
https://i.imgur.com/tt52xEQ.png

[Vid Flumina]

Augustus was a fucking Piedmontese, can you believe it?



Lucio Malan would make a compelling Augustus :laugh:

https://www.ecodelchisone.it/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/news/malan_lucio1_0.jpg?itok=lEze7jRn

[Samnium]

Lucio Malan would make a compelling Augustus :laugh:

https://www.ecodelchisone.it/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/news/malan_lucio1_0.jpg?itok=lEze7jRn

Now I can larping as a roman contrary to what said Adamastor :)

He said that I could go and cry in my bathroom because being half french :picard2:

[Nassbean]

So i was right since the beginning these barbaric invasions really affected Italy interesting

[Dna8]

So i was right since the beginning these barbaric invasions really affected Italy interesting

Nothing barbaric about farmers who nobly went on to form the core of the Italic ethnos.

[Jana]

The man above looks Polish in that photo.

[Dna8]

What percentage of Venetians are blond/e?

[Nassbean]

Nothing barbaric about farmers who nobly went on to form the core of the Italic ethnos.

I'm talking about the north and central european influence

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

It is not uncommon for Portugueses to plot near modern North Italian samples (check my signature). It can be a coincidence but it can also be the product of a genetic continuum of a common ancestry: Italo-Celtic\Celtiberian.

[Calpurnius]

I'm talking about the north and central european influence
It's not necessarily the case, they didn't even check for resurgence of Iron age ancestry after the Imperial era, so that northern signal could really be in greater or lesser part just iron age ancestry resurfacing in central Italy after all the migrants left. I'm not too happy about their models, they should've checked this.

[Dna8]

I'm talking about the north and central european influence

https://media.giphy.com/media/5Q9xC9cZdFiOQ/giphy.gif

[Dick]

https://youtu.be/yXiSp9aJYN4

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

[video=youtube_share;yXiSp9YN4[/video]

In that movie Russell Crowe character is an Hispano-Roman General, Maximus Decimus Meridius :)

[Dorian]

How many slaps can these nordicists take? :icon_lol:

[Dna8]

Even so, I don't want them getting sick..

Just one pic:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQ_vW6ZhHGCH1lzbTWMesj_jsAFkhH SSsSLkNIhnB8_-5SXjBnl

[Calpurnius]

I did the snp calls for the hirisplex prediction system for one of the high quality iron age samples, R437, these are the results. Notice, the higher the AUC loss, the less the prediction can be trusted.
https://i.imgur.com/smebttn.png
Gonna post those for R435 and maybe others later.

[Samnium]

How many slaps can these nordicists take? :icon_lol:

Nordicists are going crazy lol.

This study is probably one of the most important studies of the last decades about Roman history I would say, because it elucidate a lot of questions that people had since centuries.

[Dna8]

I did the snp calls for the hirisplex prediction system for one of the high quality iron age samples, R437, these are the results. Notice, the higher the AUC loss, the less the prediction can be trusted.
https://i.imgur.com/smebttn.png
Gonna post those for R435 and maybe others later.

High spirited East Coast African American man: Baby, you do what you gotta do

[Samnium]

It's not necessarily the case, they didn't even check for resurgence of Iron age ancestry after the Imperial era, so that northern signal could really be in greater or lesser part just iron age ancestry resurfacing in central Italy after all the migrants left. I'm not too happy about their models, they should've checked this.

This is what I think, I definitely don't suscribe to their "germanic/central euro" model simply because as I said the geography of Italy make it nearly impossible to have such a shift. We aren't talking about the vast plains of Western and Northern Europe.

[Nassbean]

It's not necessarily the case, they didn't even check for resurgence of Iron age ancestry after the Imperial era, so that northern signal could really be in greater or lesser part just iron age ancestry resurfacing in central Italy after all the migrants left. I'm not too happy about their models, they should've checked this.

I mean come on it appeared when they started to enter into the roman empire and ofc during the fall of the western roman empire i doubt it's a coincidence. Also they clearly made a difference between the iron age ancestry and what happened after you underestimate their analyse imo

[Dna8]

This is what I think, I definitely don't suscribe to their "germanic/central euro" model simply because as I said the geography of Italy make it nearly impossible to have such a shift. We aren't talking about the vast plains of Western and Northern Europe.

Excellent point.

[Dna8]

Nordicists are going crazy lol.

This study is probably one of the most important studies of the last decades about Roman history I would say, because it elucidate a lot of questions that people had since centuries.

Italy's shape I can grasp, but, for me and others not fluent in genetics, what are the diagrams showing us?

[L3mon J3lly]

This study supports Nordicism. The original founding Romans were shifted genetically towards Austrians, and the population of Rome became miscegenated with foreigners during the Imperial era. Kind of like how America became Irish, Italian, Mexican and Asian as it expanded its empire.

[Calpurnius]

I mean come on it appeared when they started to enter into the roman empire and ofc during the fall of the western roman empire i doubt it's a coincidence. Also they clearly made a difference between the iron age ancestry and what happened after you underestimate their analyse imo
That's the point though, I looked through their analyses in the supplementary papers and it doesn't seem like they checked something as simple as that for the visible northern back-shift of central Latium. I think it's quite simply the most basic explanation, remigration from Italy itself, perhaps north-central Italy. Keep in mind that much of the samples are really urbanites, there isn't exactly lots of sampling from the whole of latium, especially in the imperial period. If you take aside the cities, much of the north-central Italian countryside probably still had such an iron age profile or something similar.

[Samnium]

This study supports Nordicism. The original founding Romans were shifted genetically towards Austrians, and the population of Rome became miscegenated with foreigners during the Imperial era. Kind of like how America became Irish, Italian, Mexican and Asian as it expanded its empire.

Nope because Romans were never Swedes or Slavs, SW Euros are on average 45% Steppe and the rest mostly Anatolian (with variations of NA ancestry in Iberia Peninsula), for the 2.0 Nordicists, not having +60% Steppe = being a sub-european.

[Samnium]

That's the point though, I looked through their analyses in the supplementary papers and it doesn't seem like they checked something as simple as that for the visible northern back-shift of central Latium. I think it's quite simply the most basic explanation, remigration from Italy itself, perhaps north-central Italy. Keep in mind that much of the samples are really urbanites, there isn't exactly lots of sampling from the whole of latium, especially in the imperial period. If you take aside the cities, much of the north-central Italian countryside probably still had such an iron age profile or something similar.

It's exactly what I thought (and I think still). This study is very interesting to pointing out what Romans were genetically with serious samples, and also to show the multiculturalism of the cities (I think that the empire collapsed also because of that)

[Dna8]

There are currently 45 users browsing this thread. (10 members and 35 guests)

Dna8, Samnium+, Calpurnius, Dick+, Lemgrant, Dorian, savvas, PaleoEuropean, Ogweed

[Samnium]

There are currently 45 users browsing this thread. (10 members and 35 guests)

Dna8, Samnium+, Calpurnius, Dick+, Lemgrant, Dorian, savvas, PaleoEuropean, Ogweed

I got 50 likes in a matter of 2 hours, crazy.

[L3mon J3lly]

Nope because Romans were never Swedes or Slavs, SW Euros are on average 45% Steppe and the rest mostly Anatolian (with variations of NA ancestry in Iberia Peninsula), for the 2.0 Nordicists, not having +60% Steppe = being a sub-european.

SW Euros are 45% steppe? Get a grip, nigger. No one in the world is 45% steppe anymore.

The study clearly said the original Romans were shifted toward Central Europeans.

[Samnium]

SW Euros are 45% steppe? Get a grip, nigger. No one is 45% steppe anymore.

The study clearly said the original Romans were shifted toward Central Europeans.

You haven't read the study.

Where have you seen the central euro shifted romans ? :

https://dcalderon.shinyapps.io/shiny_rome/_w_d1a8ba9b/summary_mini.gif

They are South-West shifted, clustering with N.Italians and Iberians (and not that far from French that aren't a Central euro people) :picard2:

[L3mon J3lly]

You haven't read the study.

Where have you seen the central euro shifted romans ? :

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/490553013124202496/642145638561087488/summary_mini.png

They are South-West shifted, clustering with N.Italians and Iberians (and not that far from French that aren't a Central euro people) :picard2:

That's the Mesolithic plot, you mentally retarded nigger fuck. :rofl_002:

[Samnium]

That's the Mesolithic plot, you mentally retarded nigger fuck. :rofl_002:

I've copied the right gif (I made a mistake), return to your desert (because you're an arab apparently, but a very displeasant one), moron.

Thanks to Italic people, Imperial Late romans like you have disappeared from Italian peninsula :)

[Calpurnius]

That iron age Italics would be shifted towards central Euro beakers I think doesn't surprise many, especially after the Iberia study where basically we saw something similar, and given the archeological context, linking it to the whole Villanovan horizon. But I think some were expecting iron age Italics to be straight up central European Beakers or even more Scandinavians, without no mixing with locals. The Mycenaean study should've taught some lessons.

[Dna8]

Timeline and accurate genetic composition of the samples

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/638825419436720148/642092296170373133/unknown.png

If the above is what I think it is, Ancient Romans were thoroughly Southern European.

https://66.media.tumblr.com/0c572510d97013181162d73dd551b194/tumblr_ortlkhNkhZ1ve0mxgo1_400.gifv

[Samnium]

That iron age Italics would be shifted towards central Euro beakers I think doesn't surprise many, especially after the Iberia study where basically we saw something similar, and given the archeological context, linking it to the whole Villanovan horizon. But I think some were expecting iron age Italics to be straight up central European Beakers or even more Scandinavians, without no mixing with locals. The Mycenaean study should've taught some lessons.

They were dreaming, Scandinavians lol. It if it was the case Italians would plot in Germany today. :picard1:

[savvas]

Lucio Malan would make a compelling Augustus :laugh:

https://www.ecodelchisone.it/sites/default/files/styles/large/public/news/malan_lucio1_0.jpg?itok=lEze7jRn

I mean, Chiamparino and Fassino have the most Roman faces I can think of, bar Cottarelli.

https://i.imgur.com/Qe6eLVr.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RU0vGbW.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Jn4UhOr.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/LVAJno6.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/IJ06GcI.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Hkr01wO.jpg

or Cordero di Montezemolo:

https://i.imgur.com/5HFd9dv.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/M804poc.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ZSKK1Zt.jpg

Berrino with his hyper-brachy head:

https://i.imgur.com/oOu6g3Y.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/aXq6uNM.jpg

Accornero:

https://i.imgur.com/s5WYyBW.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/010YwbT.jpg

Capello:

https://i.imgur.com/sW5d7TE.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/oNKCCg0.jpg

Gardiol:

https://i.imgur.com/VpjrGEi.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ENn5oAE.jpg

Caffaratto:

https://i.imgur.com/enBlKWH.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/FYAtRn6.jpg

Fluttero:

https://i.imgur.com/GeH9Mj6.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/WpepQE9.jpg

Barazzotto:

https://i.imgur.com/9ErKhBV.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/qj3RS6e.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/w5R7yY1.jpg

Barbero:

https://i.imgur.com/A6qRUrU.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ZrTMMPv.jpg

Bonino:

https://i.imgur.com/szXue7E.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/7oFktJa.jpg

[savvas]

Boero:

https://i.imgur.com/MpO5Ni4.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/a4NMkqy.jpg

Vallino:

https://i.imgur.com/moe4irv.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/PkF6VPj.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/XEfnEVP.jpg

Migone:

https://i.imgur.com/TjMdnGJ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/LU5NwUJ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/8J40Scw.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/b6sVTHy.jpg

[Peterski]

Okay, so rumours about Early Romans being South Italian-like are not confirmed.

This PCA shows Republican Era Romans in Latium were probably like modern Piedmontese (North-West Italians):

Only during the Imperial Era mass migration from East Mediterranean changed it:

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6466/708

https://dcalderon.shinyapps.io/shiny_rome/_w_c9f650e1/summary_mini.gif

https://i.imgur.com/VLo6DMu.png

BTW, soon another paper with ancient DNA from other regions of Italy (outside of Latium) should be published.

This paper had only DNA from the city of Rome and surrounding areas within the present-day region of Latium.

[Samnium]

Boero:

https://i.imgur.com/MpO5Ni4.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/a4NMkqy.jpg

Vallino:

https://i.imgur.com/moe4irv.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/PkF6VPj.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/XEfnEVP.jpg

Migone:

https://i.imgur.com/TjMdnGJ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/LU5NwUJ.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/8J40Scw.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/b6sVTHy.jpg

Mostly people from the Atlantid spectrum, no surprising, I noticed that on the Roman busts

[J. Ketch]

If Iron Age people as far south as Rome and further were Iberian like Italics (above 30% Steppe), what did Iron Age Northern Italy / Cisalpine Gaul look like?

[Samnium]

If Iron Age people down as far south as Rome and further were Iberian like Italics (above 30% Steppe), what did Iron Age Northern Italy / Cisalpine Gaul look like?

Gauls probably mixed with local population even in France, and I think that in France the northward shift is the closer you get to get to NW countries or to the areas where originated Celts (Switzerland, South Germany, part of Austria) like Northern French or Eastern French.

A cisalpine gaul would be a "N.euro" genetically, I believe, without being a scandinavian, probably something as Germany for plotting.

[Voskos]

what this study basically tells us, the not-so-politically-version of it: in brief, north european admixture has never been native to italy but rather some sort of bastardization that comes and goes depending on the era.

[L3mon J3lly]

Okay, so rumours about Early Romans being South Italian-like are not confirmed.

This PCA shows Republican Era Romans in Latium were probably like modern Piedmontese (North-West Italians):

Only during the Imperial Era mass migration from East Mediterranean changed it:

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/366/6466/708

https://dcalderon.shinyapps.io/shiny_rome/_w_c9f650e1/summary_mini.gif

https://i.imgur.com/VLo6DMu.png

BTW, soon another paper with ancient DNA from other regions of Italy (outside of Latium) should be published.

This paper had only DNA from the city of Rome and surrounding areas within the present-day region of Latium.

And the Piedmontese are basically central Europeans, so yeah, it's over for the people who hoped that Romans would be southern Europeans.

[Dna8]

what this study basically tells us, the not-so-politically-version of it: in brief, north european admixture has never been native to italy but rather some sort of bastardization that comes and goes depending on the era.

What does it tell us about the genetic makeup of the population of the Italian peninsula from the founding of Rome to the rise of Constantinople?

[Samnium]

And the Piedmontese are basically central Europeans, so yeah, it's over for the people who hoped that Romans would be southern Europeans.

Have you ever seen an european PCA ? Central Euros are way more northern, some Central Euros are even very close to S.Polish or East German, Ukrainians... See where Hungarians plot. They are far from Portuguese, SW Italians and Iberians IMO. It's because they have high amount of NE ancestry whereas SW euros have what's called the "Atlantic" component that is the core of all NW Europe.

[L3mon J3lly]

Have you ever seen an european PCA ? Central Euros are way more northern, some Central Euros are even very close to S.Polish or East German, Ukrainians... See where Hungarians plot. They are far from Portuguese, SW Italians and Iberians IMO.

I said Piedmontese. Piedmontese and other northern Italians are essentially southern Germanics genetically, which reflects the historical settlement of North Italy. Romans had nothing whatever to do with Portuguese, SW Italians or Iberians.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3440425/

[Peterski]

I have noticed that some people have problems with chronology and claim that Pre-Imperial samples are "early Latins, not Romans". These samples range from 900-27 BCE, so only 150 years before and over 700 years after the foundation of Rome (753 BCE).

They are clearly Romans from times when Rome was a Kingdom and a Republic:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Kingdom (753-509 BCE)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Republic (509-27 BCE)

[Samnium]

I said Piedmontese. Piedmontese and other northern Italians are essentially southern Germanics genetically, which reflects the historical settlement of North Italy. Romans had nothing whatever to do with Portuguese, SW Italians or Iberians.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3440425/Not true at all, N.Italians don't plot with S.Germans at all.

The most N.Shifted like Trento or Aosta plot near the French average not Germany.

Envoyé de mon ALE-L21 en utilisant Tapatalk

[Voskos]

@dna8,

Apparently a further shift towards malta, greece, cyprus , syria during that time.

[Samnium]

I made a mistake it was SW euros not SW italians by the way

[Dna8]

@dna8,

Apparently a further shift towards malta, greece, cyprus , syria during that time.

Was said population ever less than "southern shifted", from the founding of Rome until the unification of Italy?

[J. Ketch]

what this study basically tells us, the not-so-politically-version of it: in brief, north european admixture has never been native to italy but rather some sort of bastardization that comes and goes depending on the era.
This statement doesn't make sense. The earliest native population in this study (Mesolithic Hunter Gatherers) are as genetically 'Northern' as you can get, and all modern Italians carry both theirs and Northern European Bell Beaker ancestry, who gave them their Italic language. What's relatively new is the non-European MENA admixture that came largely via the Roman Empire around 2000 years ago.

[L3mon J3lly]

Not true at all, N.Italians don't plot with S.Germans at all.

The most N.Shifted like Trento or Aosta plot near the French average not Germany.

Envoyé de mon ALE-L21 en utilisant Tapatalk

Read the link I posted. North Italians plot with southern Germanics and most of their ancestry is German from the numerous settlements by Germans. Also, half of France is genetically German..



Was said population ever less than "southern shifted", from the founding of Rome until the unification of Italy?


This paper. The Iron Age Republican-era samples were genetically Germanic.

[Samnium]

Read the link I posted. North Italians plot with southern Germanics and most of their ancestry is German from the numerous settlements by Germans. Also, half of France is genetically German..





This paper. The Iron Age Republican-era samples were genetically Germanic.You're probably trolling because I've never heard absurdities like that...

You contradict thousands of results and dozens of professional studies on the question.

Have you proofs of what you said ?

[L3mon J3lly]

You're probably trolling because I've never heard absurdities like that...

You contradict thousands of results and dozens of professional studies on the question.

Have you proofs od what you said ?

Yeah you could try reading the link I posted, dipsquat. LOL @ actually claiming to have seen "thousands of results and dozens of studies on this subject." In your twisted imagination, maybe.

[Voskos]

@dna8. Yeah, woggiest era ever apparently.

[catgeorge]

North Italians are Celtic-Italic not Germanic.

Prior to Imperial Rome - the Northern Celtic tribes and Gauls were eternal enemies of Rome.

Subjugation of North Italy was easy for Rome and solidified their position as part of Roman culture very fast thereafter. I think people watch too many Roman Empire type television.

[Dna8]

This paper. The Iron Age Republican-era samples were genetically Germanic.

Were they ever genetically Germanic again after the, Iron Age?

[Samnium]

North Italians are Celtic-Italic not Germanic.

Prior to Imperial Rome - the Northern Celtic tribes and Gauls were eternal enemies of Rome.

Subjugation of North Italy was easy for Rome and solidified their position as part of Roman culture very fast thereafter. I think people watch too many Roman Empire type television.

No they are germans and they plot in Germany :)

If they are germans N.French are Finns :)

[L3mon J3lly]

North Italians are Celtic-Italic not Germanic.

Prior to Imperial Rome - the Northern Celtic tribes and Gauls were eternal enemies of Rome.

Subjugation of North Italy was easy for Rome and solidified their position as part of Roman culture very fast thereafter. I think people watch too many Roman Empire type television.

North Italians are genetically Germanic. That's what this recent study also shows, as well as the link I posted, as Italy has been heavily settled by Germanics ever since the 300s AD, particularly in the North. Pre-imperial Romans plot with these modern Germanic North Italians.

[Samnium]

Were they ever genetically Germanic again after the, Iron Age?

No they were plotting on where SW euros plot. He lies. I've posted the gif from the study.

[Dick]

Okay, so rumours about Early Romans being South Italian-like are not confirmed.

This PCA shows Republican Era Romans in Latium were probably like modern Piedmontese (North-West Italians):

Only during the Imperial Era mass migration from East Mediterranean changed it:


https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/638825419436720148/642096759795089441/unknown.png

[Samnium]

North Italians are genetically Germanic. That's what this recent study also shows, as well as the link I posted, as Italy has been heavily settled by Germanics ever since the 300s AD, particularly in the North. Pre-imperial Romans plot with these modern Germanic North Italians.

Strange because the study show that they plot right on SW euro cluster.

https://dcalderon.shinyapps.io/shiny_rome/_w_d1a8ba9b/summary_mini.gif

You're troll and you want only to disrupt this thread

[L3mon J3lly]

No they were plotting on where SW euros plot. He lies. I've posted the gif from the study.

There is nothing indicating that they plot with SW Euros on that atrocious .gif image, and the study clearly says Italy has been becoming more Germanic since the 300s AD, due to settlement of Italy by Lombards, Franks, Normans, etc. North Italians today are geneticalky Germanic people, and the original Republican era Romans were shifted towards these modern, Germanic North Italians. So the original Romans were infact a Central European population.

[Samnium]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/638825419436720148/642096759795089441/unknown.png

It's not a triplication because the Iron Age sample is 7 and the Imperial 24, but there is surely an increase and E/G2 appears also at this period

[Samnium]

There is nothing indicating that they plot with SW Euros on that atrocious .gif image, and the study clearly says Italy has been becoming more Germanic since the 300s AD, due to settlement of Italy by Lombards, Franks, Normans, etc. North Italians today are geneticalky Germanic people, and the original Republican era Romans were shifted towards these modern, Germanic North Italians. So the original Romans were infact a Central European population.

This atrocious gif is directly from the pictures of the study.

[Dick]

It's not a triplication because the Iron Age sample is 7 and the Imperial 24, but there is surely an increase and E/G2 appears also at this period

Idk you posted that graph

[Samnium]

Idk you posted that graphYou see E and G2 haplogroup that appears at Roman Imperial era.

And also an increase of J1/J2 haplogroups (Caucasus).

Envoyé de mon ALE-L21 en utilisant Tapatalk

[Dna8]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/638825419436720148/642096759795089441/unknown.png

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQa8FuvVsVb3H1g-I4FacM5X-OJkdvmH6eanDnyZd2PJJvLysBN

[L3mon J3lly]

This atrocious gif is directly from the pictures of the study.

Yeah, which no one can even see because of the framerate. The actual frames which people can see (as in Peterski's post) show that nowhere is it implied that Republican Romans were "SW Euro".

[Voskos]

@ creoda


This statement doesn't make sense. The earliest native population in this study (Mesolithic Hunter Gatherers) are as genetically 'Northern' as you can get

The mesolithic era is too old to be used as a reference though. The shift towards northern european populations seems to have occurred with the arrival of steppe admixture, which is clearly foreign introgression and posterior to sardinian-like neolithic influx.

[Samnium]

Yeah, which no one can even see because of the framerate. The actual frames which people can see show that nowhere is it implied that Republican Romans were "SW Euro".Never implied ?
Liar.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191108/79519cd185264f4ee70a066bff07608e.jpg

They plotted where are Iberians and Northern.Italians.

[Dorian]

https://i.postimg.cc/L8FpsTC0/asa.jpg

[Samnium]

https://i.postimg.cc/L8FpsTC0/asa.jpgThis. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191108/290ab2002d9903afe775ad4a5e0ecba2.jpg

[L3mon J3lly]

^ That clearly shows a shift away from southwest Europeans during Imperial times. You don't know how to read graphs and know nothing about European genetic structure.


Anyway Dick's clearly shown the massive Y-DNA change that occurred during the Imperial era. Italy was originally just another Central Euro Indo-European realm with a lot of R1/J2 that changed to a high J1/E environment, much like America changed in the 20th century. This is consistent wirh the shift from being genetically Central Euro to modern Southern Italians.

[Samnium]

^ That clearly shows a shift away from southwest Europeans during Imperial times. You don't know how to read graphs and know nothing about European genetic structure.


Anyway Dick's clearly shown the massive Y-DNA change that occurred during the Imperial era. Italy was originally just another Central Euro Indo-European realm with a lot of R1/J2 that changed to a high J1/E environment, much like America changed in the 20th century. This is consistent wirh the shift from being genetically Cebtral Euro to modern Southern Italians.

SW Europe =/ Central Euro I don't know how many times I will repeat you.

If they were Central Euro they would have plotted a lot more northern and less "western" on the PCA.

[L3mon J3lly]

https://i.imgur.com/Lk82k6O.jpg

[L3mon J3lly]

SW Europe =/ Central Euro I don't know how many times I will repeat you.

If they were Central Euro they would have plotted a lot more northern and less "western" on the PCA.

They did, idiot. Someone pull up the K analysis from earlier in this thread, they were very close to Germans.

North Italians such as Piedmontese are basically Franks.

[Samnium]

They did, idiot. Someone pull up the K analysis from earlier in this thread, they were very close to Germans.

North Italians such as Piedmontese are basically Franks.No they aren't at ALL .

Those who match highly with Franks ancient samples here are members that are only from NW background : either British Islands, Scandinavia, Dutchs etc.

0 argument

[savvas]

So is no one going to talk about Neolithic Romans (violet dots)? They are basically ENF instead of Sardinian-like:

https://i.imgur.com/0LYKuiA.png

[Dorian]

https://i.imgur.com/Lk82k6O.jpg

If that's supposed to depict the non- "CE" Italians ,their Jewish&Greek cousins have their back ,can't say the same for the hut builders :icon_lol:

[Smitty]

Nordicists will likely be happy to learn that Romans were similar to Iberians rather than modern Southern Italians. On the other hand, some people seem to be assuming the change in the genetics of the city of Rome during imperial times goes for all Italy. I don't think this study indicates that at all, unless we assume all those migrants to Rome just happened to move only to South Italy (and mostly to Calabria and Sicily) and change the genetics of that region significantly and exclusively. I still think South Italy has differed from the North since before the empire, and the Middle Eastern influx of that period was pretty much just an urban event.

[L3mon J3lly]

No they aren't at ALL .

Those who match highly with Franks ancient samples here are members that are only from NW background : either British Islands, Scandinavia, Dutchs etc.

0 argument

Not at all? Even Sardinians are 14% North European my little shithead troll.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3440425/


The average admixture proportions for Northern European ancestry within current Sardinian population is 14.3% with some individuals exhibiting very low Northern European ancestry (less than 5% in 36 individuals on 268 accounting the 13% of the sample).

[Samnium]

Not at all? Even Sardinians are 14% North European my little shithead troll.


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3440425/Get out from this thread you're trolling and insulting all the time. I will call a member of the staff, enough of your bad humour.

Envoyé de mon ALE-L21 en utilisant Tapatalk

[Dorian]

Nordicists will likely be happy to learn that Romans were similar to Iberians rather than modern Southern Italians.

Which is ironic since Iberians are not less trolled by these types...

[Samnium]

Nordicists will likely be happy to learn that Romans were similar to Iberians rather than modern Southern Italians. On the other hand, some people seem to be assuming the change in the genetics of the city of Rome during imperial times goes for all Italy. I don't think this study indicates that at all, unless we assume all those migrants to Rome just happened to move only to South Italy (and mostly to Calabria and Sicily) and change the genetics of that region significantly and exclusively. I still think South Italy has differed from the North since before the empire, and the Middle Eastern influx of that period was pretty much just an urban event.

Nope Campania is outlying as Sicily and Cosenza and Crotone province in Calabria had huge italic input so it's rather a very simplistic view.

What's seems to be blatant is that Sicily hasn't any italic admixture. They aren't italians if we refer to the strict definition of partaking the same italic ancestry.

[L3mon J3lly]

Nordicists will likely be happy to learn that Romans were similar to Iberians rather than modern Southern Italians. On the other hand, some people seem to be assuming the change in the genetics of the city of Rome during imperial times goes for all Italy. I don't think this study indicates that at all, unless we assume all those migrants to Rome just happened to move only to South Italy (and mostly to Calabria and Sicily) and change the genetics of that region significantly and exclusively. I still think South Italy has differed from the North since before the empire, and the Middle Eastern influx of that period was pretty much just an urban event.

If that were the case, the Iron Age Roman sample wouldn't have been Central European. It was.

There was nothing Iberian about it.

[catgeorge]

Urban cities have always been populated and repopulated by villagers and regional people. They were always Italic in origin this is why they speak Italian today not Germanic.

[Smitty]

Which is ironic since Iberians are not less trolled by these types...

Really? Only Greeks come close to being trolled as much as Italians in my opinion.

[Dorian]

Really? Only Greeks come close to being trolled as much as Italians in my opinion.

Ofc ,all three are..

[Samnium]

Ofc ,all three are..IMO until recent times Italians were the most trolled now it's greeks

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[L3mon J3lly]

Urban cities have always been populated and repopulated by villagers and regional people. They were always Italic in origin this is why they speak Italian today not Germanic.

No way. They took on Italian language (with Germanic loanwords), but they are genetically Germanic, north central Europeans.

[catgeorge]

No way. They took on Italian language (with Germanic loanwords), but they are genetically Germanic, north central Europeans.

Dude, they are Italics.

This is Italic not Germanic

https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article3517777.ece/ALTERNATES/s1200/Italy.jpg

[Samnium]

No way. They took on Italian language (with Germanic loanwords), but they are genetically Germanic, north central Europeans.ItAlICs WeRe BaVaRiAnhttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191108/c45d7eb4570435eaad5330d7ee72f964.jpg

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[savvas]

North Italians are genetically Germanic.

True, we can even switch to our ancestral mother tongue when in need, case in point is Trapattoni:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4lzuLgx5a0

[Dorian]

Dude, they are Italics.

This is Italic not Germanic

https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article3517777.ece/ALTERNATES/s1200/Italy.jpg

Legendary ,how can these snowniggers compare without assimilating immigrants in their national teams?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QApBPVptQA

[Samnium]

True, we can even switch to our ancestral mother tongue when in need, case in point is Trapattoni:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4lzuLgx5a0

N.Italians should speak le bon françois au lieu de l'infâme patois germain :)

[Dna8]

Ancient Romans were swarthy, as common sense would dictate.

[Kamal900]

https://i.imgur.com/Lk82k6O.jpg

Huh?

Arabs 2,000 years ago(Nabateans):
https://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/field/image/petra-jordan-2.jpg
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-YjkCCycJjIY/V37aDYR3c9I/AAAAAAAAZD0/slAOTeh9ud42kzQmuo_YOmcsGJ5OMB9xgCLcB/s1600/petra.jpg
https://external-preview.redd.it/HOnv1Sp_hpu8dtNq5EYtynw4RhbZ08aqmDqK8mKOs5E.jpg?au to=webp&7dd6e683
https://www.dhushara.com/book/orsin/nab.jpg

Iranians 2,000 years ago:
http://www.iranchamber.com/history/ctesiphon/images/taghe_kasra_ctesiphon_big.jpg
http://www.funwithcy.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Hecatompylos-3.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/8383/8518726244_d335057ee7_b.jpg
https://www.ancient.eu/img/r/p/500x600/10835.jpg?v=1559514990

Your kind 2,000 years ago:
http://www.greenspec.co.uk/images/web/design/anglo-saxon.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c8/31/75/c831750d0e812b45b3b529e573b3e60a.jpg

And remember, both Arabid and Iranid races are East-Med orientalid races which in itself part of the Mediterranean racial spectrum:
http://humanphenotypes.net/iranidf.jpghttp://humanphenotypes.net/arabidf.jpg

http://www.bahrainaviators.com/uploads/5/4/3/5/54352283/38ab-20180227-mussolini-invation-of-france-1940_orig.gif

[Samnium]

Ancient Romans were swarthy, as common sense would dictate.

They were mostly Atlantids but I think that for nordicist standards it's swarthy. Unless you're aren't a textbook Halstatt Nordid you're a sub-european :)

[Smitty]

Nope Campania is outlying as Sicily and Cosenza and Crotone province in Calabria had huge italic input so it's rather a very simplistic view.

What's seems to be blatant is that Sicily hasn't any italic admixture. They aren't italians if we refer to the strict definition of partaking the same italic ancestry.

I'm sure there are internal variations within South Italy, but my point stands. The only regions of Italy that have significant so-called "Middle Eastern" DNA are in the South, and there doesn't seem to be any indication that that component is tied to the Imperial Era. Why should all the imperial migrants to the city of Rome have gone south?

And Sicilians have no Italic DNA? I haven't heard that before. Why do you say that?

[savvas]

N.Italians should speak le bon françois au lieu de l'infâme patois germain :)

Nous le faisons déjà mdr


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-I1I5KQSpQ

[Dna8]

They were mostly Atlantids but I think that for nordicist standards it's swarthy. Unless you're aren't a textbook Halstatt Nordid you're a sub-european :)

Can you post a diagram or passage from the study referencing Atlantids?

[Dna8]

This thread is exhilarating, by the way.

I cannot be the only one exhilarated right now.

[Smitty]

This thread is exhilarating, by the way.

I cannot be the only one exhilarated right now.

You must have a low threshold. :)

[Kamal900]

Nous le faisons déjà mdr


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-I1I5KQSpQ

Sounds like a drunken Scotsman speaking French to the French people.

[Samnium]

I'm sure there are internal variations within South Italy, but my point stands. The only regions of Italy that have significant so-called "Middle Eastern" DNA are in the South, and there doesn't seem to be any indication that that component is tied to the Imperial Era. Why should all the imperial migrants to the city of Rome have gone south?

And Sicilians have no Italic DNA? I haven't heard that before. Why do you say that?Because the part of the Sicily that was supposedly conquered by Sicels, an italic tribe, has 0 R1b. (East Sicily) The area is on grey in Y-DNA maps.

The R1b that you find in other provinces come from N.Italian repopulations.

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[Calpurnius]

I'm sure there are internal variations within South Italy, but my point stands. The only regions of Italy that have significant so-called "Middle Eastern" DNA are in the South, and there doesn't seem to be any indication that that component is tied to the Imperial Era. Why should all the imperial migrants to the city of Rome have gone south?

And Sicilians have no Italic DNA? I haven't heard that before. Why do you say that?

It's not so much that the Imperial migrants went south, but that probably something similar to what was going on in Rome happened in the great and rich cities of Magna Grecia, and to a much greater extent than north of Rome, whose cities weren't I guess in the same league.

[L3mon J3lly]

A marble bust of Caligula restored to its original colours. The colours were identified from particles trapped in the marble.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Cropped_color_calligula.jpg


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7c/06/40/7c0640c1322da185e49d26760da01459.jpg


https://i.pinimg.com/736x/26/83/fd/2683fdf868054a26424fbb500f56c69e.jpg

http://www.jasperburns.com/laocoon_color.jpg

https://wesee.ist/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/roman-emperors-4.jpg

[Dna8]

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/26/83/fd/2683fdf868054a26424fbb500f56c69e.jpg

[Smitty]

It's not so much that the Imperial migrants went south, but that probably something similar to what was going on in Rome happened in the great and rich cities of Magna Grecia, and to a much greater extent than north of Rome, whose cities weren't I guess in the same league.

That would make sense, but it is an assumption.

[Dorian]

This thread is exhilarating, by the way.

I cannot be the only one exhilarated right now.


You must have a low threshold. :)

It's exactly that low threshold southern temperament that gave us reasons to be in that thread today.

https://friendlystock.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/7-bored-man-not-doing-work-cartoon-clipart.jpg

[Dna8]

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/26/83/fd/2683fdf868054a26424fbb500f56c69e.jpg

Palestinian?

[L3mon J3lly]

Huh?

Arabs 2,000 years ago(Nabateans):
https://www.ancient-origins.net/sites/default/files/field/image/petra-jordan-2.jpg
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-YjkCCycJjIY/V37aDYR3c9I/AAAAAAAAZD0/slAOTeh9ud42kzQmuo_YOmcsGJ5OMB9xgCLcB/s1600/petra.jpg
https://external-preview.redd.it/HOnv1Sp_hpu8dtNq5EYtynw4RhbZ08aqmDqK8mKOs5E.jpg?au to=webp&7dd6e683
https://www.dhushara.com/book/orsin/nab.jpg

Iranians 2,000 years ago:
http://www.iranchamber.com/history/ctesiphon/images/taghe_kasra_ctesiphon_big.jpg
http://www.funwithcy.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Hecatompylos-3.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/8383/8518726244_d335057ee7_b.jpg
https://www.ancient.eu/img/r/p/500x600/10835.jpg?v=1559514990

Your kind 2,000 years ago:
http://www.greenspec.co.uk/images/web/design/anglo-saxon.jpg
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c8/31/75/c831750d0e812b45b3b529e573b3e60a.jpg

And remember, both Arabid and Iranid races are East-Med orientalid races which in itself part of the Mediterranean racial spectrum:
http://humanphenotypes.net/iranidf.jpghttp://humanphenotypes.net/arabidf.jpg

http://www.bahrainaviators.com/uploads/5/4/3/5/54352283/38ab-20180227-mussolini-invation-of-france-1940_orig.gif

Those Iranians were descendants of the Corded Ware culture of Northern Europe or the BMAC people they assimilated. The Parthian sculpture you posted, is clearly a Nordic Iranian.


The inferiority complex in this thread towards Nordics is strong.

[Dna8]

There are currently 46 users browsing this thread. (12 members and 34 guests)

Dna8, Smitty, L3mon J3lly, Creoda, Toppo900, Jacques de Imbelloni, Gallop, Samnium+, savvas

[savvas]

It's not so much that the Imperial migrants went south, but that probably something similar to what was going on in Rome happened in the great and rich cities of Magna Grecia, and to a much greater extent than north of Rome, whose cities weren't I guess in the same league.

Naples is said to have been even more cosmopolitan than Rome. Something has to explain how the fuck Campanians manage to plot south of Western Sicilians...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qesXIWOQAJg

[Dorian]

Those Iranians were descendants of the Corded Ware culture of Northern Europe or the BMAC people they assimilated. The Parthian sculpture you posted, is clearly a Nordic Iranian.


The inferiority complex in this thread towards Nordics is strong.

We also have inferiority complex towards afrocentrists.

[L3mon J3lly]

Why do you have a Nordic guy in your avatar if you are anti-Nordic?

[Dorian]

Why do you have a Nordic guy in your avatar if you are anti-Nordic?

You could figure out his phenotype? I see a Cretan man.

[L3mon J3lly]

You could figure out his phenotype? I see a Cretan man.

Yeah with his golden hair, light eyes and Northern features. Is there a reason why you chose this aberrant looking guy for your avatar (you look like him?).

[Dorian]

Yeah with his golden hair, light eyes and Northern features. Is there a reason why you chose this aberrant looking guy for your avatar (you look like him?).

I'm levantine , where did you see his eyes and northern features?
https://i.postimg.cc/mktw1ky2/as.png (https://postimages.org/)

[Voskos]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/Catapanate_of_italy.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/92/Agilulf%27s_Italy.png/498px-Agilulf%27s_Italy.png

[L3mon J3lly]

I can see his light iris color zooming in on the photo. The guy looks Swedish hipster you would expect to find in a coffee shop.

This nigga confused. :rofl_002:

[Arch Hades]

I'm always right. I said 5 years ago the Romans would probably cluster in North Italians-Spanish-Southern French genetic spectrum, looking good.

[Dorian]

I can see his light iris color zooming in on the photo. The guy looks Swedish hipster you would expect to find in a coffee shop.

This nigga confused. :rofl_002:

If you can see iris in an "oranged" pixeled pic ,congrats.
Is that a swedish hipster too?(since when swedish can grow such beards btw?) anyways we derail the thread but..whatever you want https://www.peoplegreece.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/24/stathis-stivaktakis.jpg

[L3mon J3lly]

You can clearly see the guy in your avatar has a light iris color.

[Arch Hades]

Well it's cool to see that the Romans were actually Europeans, unlike the Myceanean Greeks (super wog outliers, practically Jewoids)

[Voskos]

@Lemon Jelly. I see you follow the one drop rule for assigning someone to the nordic race.

The irony...

[L3mon J3lly]

@Lemon Jelly. I see you follow the one drop rule for assigning someone to the nordic race.

The irony...

Except the guy in Dorian's avatar has (most likely) blue eyes, blond hair, and a Nordic nose, maxilla, and mandible. And also beard.

He would fit perfectly in Sweden, but is fucking weird for Crete. Which is why I wonder why anti-Nordic Dorian displays him in an avatar. The "irony", indeed...

[Dorian]

Except the guy in Dorian's avatar has (most likely) blue eyes, blond hair, and a Nordic nose, maxilla, and mandible. And also beard.

He would fit perfectly in Sweden, but is fucking weird for Crete. Which is why I wonder why anti-Nordic Dorian displays him in an avatar. The "irony", indeed...

I subconsciously want have his features but since I don't ,I have to turn that subconscious admiration into hate.(If we are to continue at least create an offtopic thread to move the discussiont here)

[Voskos]

@lemon jelly

Are you an Arab nordicist?

[MinervaItalica]

Man what a thread you created Samnium. Ancient Romans is quite a topic.

lol what fucking sock is L3mon J3lly? Please someone shut that user.

[L3mon J3lly]

Man what a thread you created Samnium. Ancient Romans is quite a topic.

lol what fucking sock is L3mon J3lly? Please someone shut that user.

Crybaby. Italian self esteem = weaker than dogshit.
No surprise after how many whippings you received (and will continue to receive).

[MinervaItalica]

Crybaby. Italian self esteem = weaker than dogshit.
No surprise after how many whippings you received (and will continue to receive).

https://i.imgur.com/5FZJAVk.jpg

https://i.4pcdn.org/pol/1503907646663.jpg

[Morena]

Nice thread. Thanks for the post. I'm intrigued by the extra CHG in the Neolithic farmer samples as opposed to the Iberian sample, esp. since Romans clustered closer to Neolithic Iberians than they do now.

[L3mon J3lly]

@Dorian
Honestly amazing candor for a forum post, respect.

[Arch Hades]

I don't see how this supports Nordicism or Nordic theories. I don't think anybody except maybe a few Southern Italian descended Americans though the original Latins of Rome were genetically Southern Italian like. I sure never believed that. The Southern Italians have heavy Greek ancestry as we all know..also other ancestry as well. I'll bet Sicily and Calabria before the Roman Republic's expansion and domination over all of Italy will be similar to the 'Roman' samples from the Roman Empire of late antiquity.

The original Ancient Romans look to me like a more West Mediterranean population I guess? Like Spaniard-North Italian-French genetic spectrum. Yes they are definitely pulling closer to Central Europe than modern Southern Italians are. But it's not like Southern Italians are the standard bearers of what Southern European is, or even necessarily what an "Italian" is.

[renaissance12]

Double

[renaissance12]

I mean, Chiamparino and Fassino have the most Roman faces I can think of, bar Cottarelli.

https://i.imgur.com/Qe6eLVr.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RU0vGbW.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Jn4UhOr.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/LVAJno6.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/IJ06GcI.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Hkr01wO.jpg

or Cordero di Montezemolo:

https://i.imgur.com/5HFd9dv.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/M804poc.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ZSKK1Zt.jpg

Berrino with his hyper-brachy head:

https://i.imgur.com/oOu6g3Y.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/aXq6uNM.jpg

Accornero:

https://i.imgur.com/s5WYyBW.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/010YwbT.jpg

Capello:

https://i.imgur.com/sW5d7TE.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/oNKCCg0.jpg

Gardiol:

https://i.imgur.com/VpjrGEi.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ENn5oAE.jpg

Caffaratto:

https://i.imgur.com/enBlKWH.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/FYAtRn6.jpg

Fluttero:

https://i.imgur.com/GeH9Mj6.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/WpepQE9.jpg

Barazzotto:

https://i.imgur.com/9ErKhBV.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/qj3RS6e.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/w5R7yY1.jpg

Barbero:

https://i.imgur.com/A6qRUrU.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/ZrTMMPv.jpg

Bonino:

https://i.imgur.com/szXue7E.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/7oFktJa.jpg

Italiano Medio = Mostro ?

[Samnium]

Naples is said to have been even more cosmopolitan than Rome. Something has to explain how the fuck Campanians manage to plot south of Western Sicilians...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qesXIWOQAJg

Campanian plain was probably very exposed to this massive shift during roman era being one of the most populated areas of Roman Empire. Through Pompei we know what kind of society it was. There were strangers in a good amount.

What's strange is that it is only N.W Asian, 0 traces of more exotic admixture unlike Sicily.

[Samnium]

It's not so much that the Imperial migrants went south, but that probably something similar to what was going on in Rome happened in the great and rich cities of Magna Grecia, and to a much greater extent than north of Rome, whose cities weren't I guess in the same league.

No the dwellers of greek cities were predominantly greeks, it's roman cities that became cosmopolitan places, not greek one.

[Jana]

Romans were SW Europeans, absolutely nothing central European or ''Germanic'' about them.
They were closest to modern NW Italians from Piedmont, and those Italians are much closer to southern French, Portugese and Spanish (without N.African input), than to Austrians or any other Central European population.

Republican Romans were SW Europeans, Imperial Romans East Med population.

[Jana]

Another interesting question: why are Iron Age Italics identical to that Iron Age and other Bronze Age Croatian samples, apart from YDNA?
Could this mean that northern Illyrians were genetically kin of Italics, rather than of Hellenes? We need more samples though, but this similarity is huge suprise

Perhaps Illyrians were never a thing but bunch of genetically diverse people not that related. I doubt Illyrians from Albania will be SW European like, but you never know.
Anyway, on Europeanes K13 I am modeled as 60% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 40% Italian_Bergamo

[Dna8]

Would someone do me a kindness and explain to me where the specificity comes from?

The repeated references to Southwestern Europe in the context of Ancient Rome.

Surely the Ancient Romans are most relevant to the Italian peninsula. Period?

[Jana]

Would someone do me a kindness and explain to me where the specificity comes from?

The repeated references to Southwestern Europe in the context of Ancient Rome.

Surely the Ancient Romans are most relevant to the Italian peninsula. Period?

Romans before the Imperial Era were like modern NW Italians, and NW Italians are closest to other SW Europeans from Iberia and France.

[Dna8]

Romans before the Imperial Era were like modern NW Italians, and NW Italians are closest to other SW Europeans from Iberia and France.

That is not what the study's diagrams show though.

Respectfully.

Regards are kindly,

And thanks for replying.

[Jana]

That is not what the study's diagrams show though.

Respectfully.

Regards are kindly,

And thanks for replying.

How doesn't show?
https://i.imgur.com/4b34OzF.png

[Leto]

That is not what the study's diagrams show though.

Respectfully.

Regards are kindly,

And thanks for replying.
Dude, you don't know shit about genetics, stop spamming the thread with retarded bullshit.

[Dna8]

How doesn't show?
https://i.imgur.com/4b34OzF.png

Ancestry shifts are not what is lending this thread une énergie formidable.

All the gossip and all the clamor flit about how best to describe the Italian peninsula from 2019 BC to 2019 AD, succinctly put.

Would you suggest to a novice aficionado of history and genetics, that the peninsula at hand, from 2019 BC to 1 BC, is best described, genetically, as Germanic?

Would you suggest to a novice aficionado of history and genetics, that the peninsula at hand, from AD 1 to AD 2019, is best described, genetically, as Germanic?

[Dna8]

Dude, you don't know shit about genetics, stop spamming the thread with retarded bullshit.

Fuck you you wog.

[Leto]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Cropped_color_calligula.jpg


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7c/06/40/7c0640c1322da185e49d26760da01459.jpg


https://i.pinimg.com/736x/26/83/fd/2683fdf868054a26424fbb500f56c69e.jpg

http://www.jasperburns.com/laocoon_color.jpg

https://wesee.ist/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/roman-emperors-4.jpg
Reminds me of Josh Homme from the rock band Queens of the Stone Age
https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/nintchdbpict000347791844.jpg?strip=all&w=641&quality=100
He has Norwegian ancestry

[Leto]

Fuck you you wog.
Said a liberal Negro lover :lol: Get the hell out please.

[Dna8]

Reminds me of Josh Homme from the rock band Queens of the Stone Age
https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/nintchdbpict000347791844.jpg?strip=all&w=641&quality=100
He has Norwegian ancestry

Stop spamming the thread with irrelevant bullshit.

[Dna8]

Said a liberal Negro lover :lol: Get the hell out please.

And take your racism to another thread.

I am not browsing this particular one for that.

[Dna8]

Said a liberal Negro lover :lol: Get the hell out please.

Go ride a pony somewhere, son.

[Leto]

And take your racism to another thread.

I am not browsing this particular one for that.
You dream of screwing a Negro woman, that isn't my problem xD

[Dna8]

You dream of screwing a Negro woman, that isn't my problem xD

Ok, I yield.

Back to the matter at hand, Ancient Rome et al.

[Peterski]

LOL at just 10% Mediterranean during Roman Republic?!: :eek:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfEck9mUoJA

https://i.imgur.com/ZlHCqMZ.png

[Dna8]

LOL at just 10% Mediterranean during Roman Republic?!: :eek:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfEck9mUoJA

https://i.imgur.com/N64jqNj.png

@ Leto.

..u ta škrbava usta, pičko jedna.

[catgeorge]

Yup - Alba Longa is early Sardinian like + late "South Celtic" like. Central Italy has its own mutation.

Praise Mars.

[Samnium]

Don't forget : At the end the West rules :cool:

[Karol Klačansky]

It's not necessarily the case, they didn't even check for resurgence of Iron age ancestry after the Imperial era, so that northern signal could really be in greater or lesser part just iron age ancestry resurfacing in central Italy after all the migrants left. I'm not too happy about their models, they should've checked this.

its shifted towards central europe on their pca though, the iron age cluster was to the left and shifted more to south western europe, theres no reason to believe it wasnt due to central european input. Whats wrong with that?

[Token]

Like i always said, there was substantial Germanic contribution after the barbarian invasions. My job with Italy is done.

[Jana]

Like i always said, there was substantial Germanic contribution after the barbarian invasions My job with Italy is done.


its shifted towards central europe on their pca though, the iron age cluster was to the left and shifted more to south western europe, theres no reason to believe it wasnt due to central european input. Whats wrong with that?

Yes, this makes sense.

[Token]

Romans were not exactly North Italian. North Italians have substantial East Mediterranean admixture from Imperial Rome while Ancient Romans completely lacked it. Republican Romans sat on a cline from EEF to Bell Beakers.

To get to North Italians you need a shift southeast and subsequently a shift north.

[Token]

https://i.imgur.com/MYkUTeD.png

[Samnium]

Romans were not exactly North Italian. North Italians have substantial East Mediterranean admixture from Imperial Rome while Ancient Romans completely lacked it. Republican Romans sat on a cline from EEF to Bell Beakers.

To get to North Italians you need a shift southeast and subsequently a shift north.Southwestern italians for sure. So Aostans, Piedmontese...

Envoyé de mon ALE-L21 en utilisant Tapatalk

[Leto]

Don't forget : At the end the West rules :cool:
I always trust liberal media and in particular the British Broadcasting Company (BBC). They told me the Romans wuz like this
https://images.immediate.co.uk/production/volatile/sites/7/2018/01/roman-up-c6754c1.jpg?quality=90&resize=620,413

[Samnium]

I always trust liberal media and in particular the British Broadcasting Company (BBC). They told me the Romans wuz like this
https://images.immediate.co.uk/production/volatile/sites/7/2018/01/roman-up-c6754c1.jpg?quality=90&resize=620,413

This propaganda... The same with King Arthur, a black guy casted for the role :picard2:

[Peterski]

its shifted towards central europe on their pca though, the iron age cluster was to the left and shifted more to south western europe, theres no reason to believe it wasnt due to central european input. Whats wrong with that?

The map for 300-700 AD shows immigration from the direction of Gallia and Britannia, not Central Europe:

See the blue arrow, which shows North-Western (rather than just northern) source of the bulk of this shift:

https://i.imgur.com/atwMG40.png

Looks like after the loss of Eastern provinces, people from Western provinces started migrating to Rome.

We are talking mostly about immigrants who were citizens of the Roman Empire, rather than barbarians.

Perhaps it included Roman citizens evacuated from Britain to Italy: https://www.jstor.org/stable/297204

[WeirdLookingFellow]

Read the study as soon as I saw the thread. I'm unsure though what they meant by the existence of a CHG component in the Iranian Neolithic part and that it's different than Neolithic admixture in other parts of Europe. I thought all Europeans had CHG? Or is it a different CHG from the one contained in the Steppe component?

[Voskos]

What are the subclades of Roman Republic Y-DNA ?

[Samnium]

What are the subclades of Roman Republic Y-DNA ?

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/638825419436720148/642096759795089441/unknown.png

(There isn't a triplication by the way, the size sample are different)

[Vid Flumina]

Romans were not exactly North Italian. North Italians have substantial East Mediterranean admixture from Imperial Rome while Ancient Romans completely lacked it. Republican Romans sat on a cline from EEF to Bell Beakers.

To get to North Italians you need a shift southeast and subsequently a shift north.


So what does increased grey bar stand for in Iron Age model?

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/366/6466/708/F2.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1

It looks like something else (eastern) is there other than EEF + Steppe. One of the Rutulian samples from Ardea (R850; 800-500bc) is modeled with over 40% of this component

[Voskos]

There seems to be a massive shift towards R1b, but it'd be useful to know what subclades those are to get an idea where exactly they came from.

[Samnium]

So what does increased grey bar stand for in Iron Age model?

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/366/6466/708/F2.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1

It looks like something else (eastern) is there other than EEF + Steppe. One of the Rutulian samples from Ardea (R850; 800-500bc) is modeled with over 40% of this component

Iron Age and even Neolithic romans had already the Iran component I agree.

[Samnium]

There seems to be a massive shift towards R1b, but it'd be useful to know what subclades those are to get an idea where exactly they came from.

Go to Anthrogenica there are many persons that are running the samples to see what haplogroup and subclade they are !

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?18871-Ancient-Rome-A-genetic-crossroads-of-Europe-and-the-Mediterranean

[Voskos]

They were r1b u152 apparently. It looks like an expansion from the alps towards the south .

[Vid Flumina]

Not to mention sample R1 from Early Iron Age Marche (930-839bc) that's sitting east of Northern Italians, this is what paper says about it:


Martinsicuro is a coastal site located on the border of Le Marche and Abruzzo on central Italy’s Adriatic coast. It is a proto-Villanovan village, situated on a hill above the Tronto river, dating to the late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age(154). Excavations at the site have been limited, but during an excavation in preparation forroad construction, a single post-built structure was excavated which contained a rich archaeological deposit of ceramics (155). These finds from the site indicate an affinity with contemporaries in the Balkans, suggesting direct trade contacts and interaction across the Adriatic. In particular, the practice of decorating ceramics with bronze elements was shared between the Nin region in Croatia and Picene region of Italy, including Martinsicuro (156). These finds also show the conservation and preservation (e.g. as artifacts) of ceramics from the earlier Middle Bronze Age into the Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age.

I suppose by that time Illyria had this eastern component further increased, possibly affecting Italic populations on opposite shore (?)

[vbnetkhio]

haplogroup I samples

i2a1

970 - 1010 calCECentral Medieval AMedieval/EarlyModernK1a2aI-M423 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-M423/) (predicted on Anthrogenica to be I-Y3749/I-S2703 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-Y3749/))
400 - 600 CELate AntiquityLateAntiquityU5b3a1aI-PF4088 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-PF4088/)

i2a1 distribution
https://i.imgur.com/LEj1yyS.gif

subclades found in this paper
https://i.imgur.com/U441aHL.png

i2a2

10100 - 9816 calBCEUpper Paleolithic/NeolithicMesolithicU5b1+16189+@16192I-M436 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-M436/)(i2a2)
8821 - 8642 calBCEUpper Paleolithic/NeolithicMesolithicU5b1+16189+@16192I-M223 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-M223/)(i2a2a)
7284 - 7065 calBCECastelnovian MesolithicMesolithicU5b3I-M223 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-M223/)(i2a2a)
3500 - 900 BCECopper (Chalcolithic) and Bronze Age-H1e1aI-M223 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-M223/)(i2a2a)
3500 - 900 BCECopper (Chalcolithic) and Bronze Age-H1j9I-CTS616 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS616/)
300 - 700 CELate Antiquity/Early MedievalLateAntiquityH2a1I-CTS616 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-CTS616/)


i2a2 distribution
https://i.imgur.com/mbhpBWg.gif

subclades found in this paper
https://i.imgur.com/5KgjWoA.png


i1

400 - 600 CELate AntiquityLateAntiquityH1eI-M253 (i1)
1411 - 1447 calCEMedievalMedieval/EarlyModernH1g1I-M253 (i1)

[Voskos]

The Latins belonged to a group of Indo-European ("IE") tribes, conventionally known as the Italic tribes, that populated central and southern Italy during the Italian Iron Age (which began around 900 BC). The most widely accepted theory suggests that Latins and other proto-Italic tribes first entered Italy in the late Bronze Age Proto-Villanovan culture, then part of the central European Urnfield culture system.[2][3] In particular various authors, like Marija Gimbutas, had noted important similarities between the Proto-Villanovan culture, the South-German Urnfield culture of Bavaria-Upper Austria [4] and Middle-Danube Urnfield culture.[4][5][6] According to David W. Anthony proto-Latins originated in today's eastern Hungary, kurganized around 3100 BC by the Yamna culture,[7][8] while Kristian Kristiansen associated the proto-Villanovans with the Velatice-Baierdorf culture of Moravia and Austria.[9] This is further confirmed by the fact that the subsequent Latial culture, Este culture and Villanovan culture, which introduced iron-working to the Italian peninsula, were so closely related to the Central European Urnfield culture (c. 1300–750 BC), and Hallstatt culture (which succeeded the Urnfield culture), that it is not possible to tell them apart in their earlier stages.[10][11] Furthermore, the contemporary Canegrate culture of Northern Italy represented a typical western example of the western Hallstatt culture, whose diffusion most probably took place in a Celtic-speaking context.[12][13][14][15]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latins_(Italic_tribe)

[Calpurnius]

its shifted towards central europe on their pca though, the iron age cluster was to the left and shifted more to south western europe, theres no reason to believe it wasnt due to central european input. Whats wrong with that?
True but what I'm saying is that it not only could be a combination of both, but also it could be from northern Italy itself. We don't have samples from northern Italy, if they had somewhat a bit more steppe(for instance due to Celtic invasions) they'd probably land right in the proper spot, more to the right.
I still remember that IBD study by Ralph&Coop from some years ago, and it found that by and large the dating of shared segments between Italy and north Europe was older than 2000 years. If there has been a massive input from recent Germanic sources I think we would see it in the Y-DNA lineages and in IBD sharing.

[Smitty]

It's not so much that the Imperial migrants went south, but that probably something similar to what was going on in Rome happened in the great and rich cities of Magna Grecia, and to a much greater extent than north of Rome, whose cities weren't I guess in the same league.

Well, I dug up a map. And it appears North Italy had as many or more major Roman-era cities as did the South - at least as were relevant to Roman civilization. Wasn't there a cultural divide between the latter and the Greek-speaking South anyway? Sicily doesn't show any cities on this map.

http://wps.pearsoncustom.com/wps/media/objects/2426/2484749/chap_assets/maps/atl_map6_5.html

So maybe all Italy was subject to these migrations and the North later received Germanic input, or the other theory is correct: South Italian genetics were distinct from those of the North because of earlier migrations unrelated to the Roman Empire.

[Calpurnius]

Well, I dug up a map. And it appears North Italy had as many or more major Roman-era cities as did the South - at least as were relevant to Roman civilization. Wasn't there a cultural divide between the latter and the Greek-speaking South anyway? Sicily doesn't show any cities on this map.

http://wps.pearsoncustom.com/wps/media/objects/2426/2484749/chap_assets/maps/atl_map6_5.html

So maybe all Italy was subject to these migrations and the North later received Germanic input, or the other theory is correct: South Italian genetics were distinct from those of the North because of earlier migrations unrelated to the Roman Empire.
I don't doubt the number itself of cities but more their popularity and affluence, especially from such remote sources. It's no mystery that the economic core of the Empire was the east mediterranean, and the cities of the north weren't really in the same league as Neapolis, Tarentum, Messina, etc... and they perhaps would've had a good amount of more northern migrants.
I'm going to wait for the G25 coords to actually understand better what happened.

[Calpurnius]

Someone on Eurogenes posted a PCA from the visualizer with those samples: https://pastebin.com/BhuZnK6W
Some single item distances for iron age Italics:
https://i.imgur.com/9hairSQ.png

[vbnetkhio]

this is the only r1a as far as i can see.

Monterotondo Roman Imperial No 27 BCE - 300 CE Imperial Imperial 30-min (partial) 314351 Male H2a R-F1345
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-F1345/

[Calpurnius]

Preliminary PCA
https://i.imgur.com/CyOaf3y.png

[savvas]

Preliminary PCA

Is Italian_North Bergamo?

[Adamastor]

The story basically say this:

Early Romans were SW Europeans. Imperial Romans mostly a mix of anything in the Mediterranean. Post-Imperial Romans are more or less like what they are now. Nothing out of ordinary even if I think Roman genetics started to shift east in the middle third century B.C.E when the intercourse with Greeks became heavier.

This also supports my theory of a bigger SW European continuum in ancient Mediterranean apart from Greece and Anatolia which were probably the sources of the eastern shift in the Balkans and south-central Italy.

Sicilians and Calabrians in the other hand seem to be true mongrels, having considerable amounts of blood of anything, from Greeks to Moors. Maybe I was wrong to think they were likely the same in antiquity. They are probably Greeks with some North African admixture, not true Levantine admixture as Sikeliot especulated. The N.W West Asian in South Italians likely comes from some types of Greeks.

Republican Romans clustered with modern North Italians, Spaniards and Portuguese.

[Calpurnius]

Is Italian_North Bergamo?
Doesn't say anything apart from being HGDP ones, I think they are Bergamo and perhaps some could be Tuscan.

[Samnium]

Doesn't say anything apart from being HGDP ones, I think they are Bergamo and perhaps some could be Tuscan.A range between Tuscany and Iberians-like I think.

Maybe not Bergamo but more Piedmontese. Bergamo is less west shifted

[Calpurnius]

A range between Tuscany and Iberians-like I think.

Maybe not Bergamo but more Piedmontese. Bergamo is less west shifted
Mmh no I think they are really Bergamo, the naming conventions are the same as the Reich databases, and there usually the representative samples for north Italy are Bergamo ones, sometimes with some Tuscans added. HGDP as far as I know doesn't have Piedmontese.

[Samnium]

The story basically say this:

Early Romans were SW Europeans. Imperial Romans mostly a mix of anything in the Mediterranean. Post-Imperial Romans are more or less like what they are now. Nothing out of ordinary even if I think Roman genetics started to shift east in the middle third century B.C.E when the intercourse with Greeks became heavier.

This also supports my theory of a bigger SW European continuum in ancient Mediterranean apart from Greece and Anatolia which were probably the sources of the eastern shift in the Balkans and south-central Italy.

Sicilians and Calabrians in the other hand seem to be true mongrels, having considerable amounts of blood of anything, from Greeks to Moors. Maybe I was wrong to think they were likely the same in antiquity. They are probably Greeks with some North African admixture, not true Levantine admixture as Sikeliot especulated. The N.W West Asian in South Italians likely comes from some types of Greeks.

Republican Romans clustered with modern North Italians, Spaniards and Portuguese.Calabrians from southern Cosenza/Sila area have received a huge italic impact. On haplogroups maps they are always the only area from S.Italy to have always percentages equivalent to central Italy and northern central Italy in the italo-celtic haplogroups (subclades included).

I also noticed that people from this area overlap very well phenotypically to central/central-north italians instead of other S.Italians.

An example :

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191108/ef2e9e707d70aacea01d8408924fabbd.jpg

[savvas]

Mmh no I think they are really Bergamo, the naming conventions are the same as the Reich databases, and there usually the representative samples for north Italy are Bergamo ones, sometimes with some Tuscans added. HGDP as far as I know doesn't have Piedmontese.



So these fuckers (bar the southern outlier) seem to plot near Piedmontese, Canarians, Portuguese, Western Lombards and Swiss Italians, and the one from the Marche looks like a southern-shifted Venetian (possibly even Emilian). Right? Or are they a bit southern-shifted compared to Piedmontese-Western Lombards?

North Italians on Tolan's tool:

https://i.imgur.com/e5tsloJ.png

https://i.imgur.com/wX4V0Q8.png

[Jana]

Not to mention sample R1 from Early Iron Age Marche (930-839bc) that's sitting east of Northern Italians, this is what paper says about it:

Martinsicuro is a coastal site located on the border of Le Marche and Abruzzo on central Italy’s Adriatic coast. It is a proto-Villanovan village, situated on a hill above the Tronto river, dating to the late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age(154). Excavations at the site have been limited, but during an excavation in preparation forroad construction, a single post-built structure was excavated which contained a rich archaeological deposit of ceramics (155). These finds from the site indicate an affinity with contemporaries in the Balkans, suggesting direct trade contacts and interaction across the Adriatic. In particular, the practice of decorating ceramics with bronze elements was shared between the Nin region in Croatia and Picene region of Italy, including Martinsicuro (156). These finds also show the conservation and preservation (e.g. as artifacts) of ceramics from the earlier Middle Bronze Age into the Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age.

I suppose by that time Illyria had this eastern component further increased, possibly affecting Italic populations on opposite shore (?)

Very intriguing. Looks like ancient inhabitants of Croatia has lot in common with Italics, genetically very close togheder.

[savvas]

The story basically say this:

Early Romans were SW Europeans.

SW Europeans means absolutely nothing, if that's indeed where they plot, these Early Romans would come out as slightly genetically closer to Tuscans than to some SW European populations like Basques-Navarrans, Aragonese, and Cantabrians.
I remember you thought Latins/Etruscans would come out as genetically Basques LOL.

[Calpurnius]

So these fuckers (bar the southern outlier) seem to plot near Piedmontese, Canarians, Portuguese, Western Lombards and Swiss Italians, and the one from the Marche looks like a southern-shifted Venetian (possibly even Emilian). Right? Or are they a bit southern-shifted compared to Piedmontese-Western Lombards?

North Italians on Tolan's tool:

https://i.imgur.com/e5tsloJ.png

https://i.imgur.com/wX4V0Q8.png

May very well be, the PCA has only the typically few reference populations in these academic datasets, there isn't even a French_south reference or even a Tuscan one, we'll have to see once they are on G25. But what I would say is that as it often happens, two PC alone can be misleading. Even if they shift towards Spaniards, the latter I think have too much WHG, and this shows when computing single item distances. Here's the same PCA with more samples, the Veneto-like one you circled is pretty close to that iron age Croatian sample.
https://i.imgur.com/ATGEdx0.png

[Karol Klačansky]

This study doesnt tell us much about the actual peoples of the italian peninsula during the Roman empire. We all know Rome was a melting pot of different peoples and it makes sense that much of these people were from the eastern Mediterranean as they had a much larger population than western europe at the time. I doubt if even villages outside of rome had the same genetic makeup as citizens of the capital. Or maybe im not understanding something?

[Adamastor]

Calabrians from southern Cosenza/Sila area have received a huge italic impact. On haplogroups maps they are always the only area from S.Italy to have always percentages equivalent to central Italy and northern central Italy in the italo-celtic haplogroups (subclades included).

I also noticed that people from this area overlap very well phenotypically to central/central-north italians instead of other S.Italians.

An example :

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191108/ef2e9e707d70aacea01d8408924fabbd.jpg

Haplogroups don't mean a lot though. Mexican Mestizos or Dominican Quadroons are mostly R1b, it doesn't mean they are autosomally Western Europeans.

Calabrians from Cosenza are still near other South Italians genetically and the most northern they can plot is near Southern Peloponnese. Very far from North Italians.

The most northern plotting South Italians plot with Thessaly Greeks and the most southern ones with Cypriots. It means South Italians are indeed predominantly Greek.

[Adamastor]

SW Europeans means absolutely nothing, if that's indeed where they plot, these Early Romans would come out as slightly genetically closer to Tuscans than to some SW European populations like Basques-Navarrans, Aragonese, and Cantabrians.
I remember you thought Latins/Etruscans would come out as genetically Basques LOL.

We don't have an exclusively Etruscan study yet but I still bet they would be kinda shifted to Iberia. Like modern North Italians and probably ancient Northern Balkanites.

[Calpurnius]

Here is a table with 30 closest single items to the iron age samples(based on average distance):
https://i.imgur.com/b9SNPR4.png

[Jana]

You can try MDLP K23b for some of these samples, there is a Piedmont reference on that calc. Or MDLP K16 modern.

[savvas]

Here is a table with 30 closest single items to the iron age samples(based on average distance):
https://i.imgur.com/b9SNPR4.png

Hungary_BA? They seem to overlap (2 samples, at least) with North-Western Italians:

https://i.imgur.com/N0azplo.png

[Dorian]

https://i.imgur.com/uOpoUnw.png

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVC-XVdTPlI

[Imperator Biff]

The 56%ers on the italicroots forum are gonna have a mega chimp out reading this paper.

[MinervaItalica]

The 56%ers on the italicroots forum are gonna have a mega chimp out reading this paper.

Why do you think that?

[Samnium]

Haplogroups don't mean a lot though. Mexican Mestizos or Dominican Quadroons are mostly R1b, it doesn't mean they are autosomally Western Europeans.

Calabrians from Cosenza are still near other South Italians genetically and the most northern they can plot is near Southern Peloponnese. Very far from North Italians.

The most northern plotting South Italians plot with Thessaly Greeks and the most southern ones with Cypriots. It means South Italians are indeed predominantly Greek.Well I don't say that they (sileans and southern cosentians) will plot in N.Italy but certainly is Central Italy. You have to understand that although haplogroups can me misleading on an individual scale, on a global scale no. In Europe frequencies in haplogroups are associated with demographical and historical events. It's no surprising that this area has such elevated incidence of haplogroup italo-celtic. Saying they could have same percentages as regions like Marche, Tuscany or Lazio but at the same separating sharply haplogroups and autosomal doesn't make sense. Why ? Because Calabria hadn't barely any proper road system since the beginning of the 20th century. People married other people from the neigboring villages, even not areas at 20 kilometers ! There is a high degree of isolation. I have studies that have shown that.

Also the south of Cosenza hasn't be sampled, as well as nearly all the Sila area. The cosentians samples for many studies come from Belvedere Maritimo, a coastal area. Not very representative of what an inlander could be genetically.

Historically it makes sense because Bruttians that were composed of various Italic people had dozens of thousands of warriors. Concentrated around Cosenza which was the capital of Bruttii. Greeks never conquered the inland by the way and were constantly threatened by these tribes.

I don't include the area around Sybaris because it had Jewish villages and Sybari was a powerful greek city.

So your thing of the calabrian all equally southern shifted or S.Italian genetically, doesn't make sense.

To add to this there are results in Cosenza with 20% Greek and Balkan, with recent ancestors. And we even don't know how much genuine Italic DNA they have

[Imperator Biff]

Because they absolutely despise Iberians, IA Italians were somewhat closer to basques whom are the purest Iberians. (Sans the higher WHG basques have.)

[Samnium]

The 56%ers on the italicroots forum are gonna have a mega chimp out reading this paper.

I sent the study on Italicsroots for information. Most of the users don't care about genetics, you're dreaming that this will affect them minimally.

[Imperator Biff]

Romans were not exactly North Italian. North Italians have substantial East Mediterranean admixture from Imperial Rome while Ancient Romans completely lacked it. Republican Romans sat on a cline from EEF to Bell Beakers.

To get to North Italians you need a shift southeast and subsequently a shift north.

Yup, even a Roman soldier from Germany plotted way closer to Iberians than padanians.

[Samnium]

Yup, even a Roman soldier from Germany plotted way closer to Iberians than padanians.Close to Northwestern Italians.

And even if more distant of the other N.Italians they are still pretty damn close