were early Slavs just mongrel/watered down Balts?

[Jana]

Discuss.

[Voyt]

If you look at their geographical ethnogenesis, that is the most likely conclusion, yes. The steppe area was a major migratory route and the Balts used to live more south and east than they do now. As they moved south they intermixed with more Iranic, Caucasus, Turkic, and other steppe people and so proto-Slavic branched off of Balto-Slavic.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-c0b93f2c5aa5824da8cbbcdd99ff12cd

The reason so many Russians today have Baltic ancestry is because the Slavs assimilated many Baltic and Finnic people during the middle ages as they moved northeast

[TheOldNorth]

If you look at their geographical ethnogenesis, that is the most likely conclusion, yes. The steppe area was a major migratory route and the Balts used to live more south and east than they do now. As they moved south they intermixed with more Iranic, Caucasus, Turkic, and other steppe people and so proto-Slavic branched off of Balto-Slavic.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-c0b93f2c5aa5824da8cbbcdd99ff12cd

The reason so many Russians today have Baltic ancestry is because the Slavs assimilated many Baltic and Finnic people during the middle ages as they moved northeast

why are scythians migrating from the east here? they practically originated in that land thousands of years

[Sarmatian]

If you look at their geographical ethnogenesis, that is the most likely conclusion, yes. The steppe area was a major migratory route and the Balts used to live more south and east than they do now. As they moved south they intermixed with more Iranic, Caucasus, Turkic, and other steppe people and so proto-Slavic branched off of Balto-Slavic.

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-c0b93f2c5aa5824da8cbbcdd99ff12cd

The reason so many Russians today have Baltic ancestry is because the Slavs assimilated many Baltic and Finnic people during the middle ages as they moved northeast

Balts weren't Balts when they were living "more south and east than they do now". They became Balts only after moving to Baltic area. Whoever lived more south and east was some proto-Balto-Slavic entity and part of it that didn't move anywhere later turned into Slavs.

[Voyt]

Balts weren't Balts when they were living "more south and east than they do now". They became Balts only after moving to Baltic area. Whoever lived more south and east was some proto-Balto-Slavic entity and part of it that didn't move anywhere later turned into Slavs.

True, they were proto-Balto-Slavs, but you're wrong about the ones that didn't move turning into proto-Slavs; it was the ones that moved southwest into southern Belarus and west-Ukraine that intermixed with the steppe peoples to turn into proto-Slavs. Those that stayed in the northeast turned into proto-Balts, and those proto-Balts didn't move anywhere; they were just assimilated by the east-Slavs millennia following: (for example the eastern Galindians: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galindians#/media/File:Slav-7-8-obrez.png ) This is why so many Russians today have Baltic genes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_languages#Genetic_relatedness

[Golden Lining]

Like I said and like it will be confirmed: Slavs are basically a "made-up ethnicity". They don't have a proto-tribe or something.

[Crn Volk]

Like I said and like it will be confirmed: Slavs are basically a "made-up ethnicity". They don't have a proto-tribe or something.

Merhaba efendi, mashala mashala

[Jana]

Another butthurt German mongrel in here. Probably hurt because of East Baltic admixture, like typical eastern mutt.

[Crn Volk]

Another butthurt German mongrel in here. Probably hurt because of East Baltic admixture, like typical eastern mutt.

He's a Turkish troll.

[Blondie]

He's a Turkish troll.

Golden Lining isn't turkish.

[Crn Volk]

Golden Lining isn't turkish.

Turks of Germany speak fluent German, as well as making good kebabs

[Blondie]

Turks of Germany speak fluent German, as well as making good kebabs

Not all can speak german fluently, and half years ago we have talked a little bit and he was friendly, i don't think he's turksh.

[Jana]

He is a ossie white trash. They are second rate Germans.

[Crn Volk]

Not all can speak german fluently, and half years ago we have talked a little bit and he was friendly, i don't think he's turksh.

Ok let's see

[Token]

I don't understand your reasoning.

[21993]

Two early Slavs from Bohemia

Two Bohemian Bell Beaker genomes from Allentoft et al. 2015 - RISE568 and RISE569 - are labeled as early Czech Slavs in the new Mathieson et al. 2017 preprint (see rows 148 and 149 in the spreadsheet here).

Obviously these samples were initially wrongly dated to the Bronze Age and misidentified. They really date to 600-900 CE and 660-770 calCE, respectively. It's an unfortunate mistake, but also an interesting situation, because they've been analyzed in great detail in several papers and on this blog, and no one suspected that anything was wrong.

So the fact that these two Medieval Slavs from East Central Europe passed so convincingly for eastern Bell Beakers is a hint of very strong genetic continuity in the region since the Bronze Age. Indeed, they're very similar to present-day Czechs, western Poles (from Poznan), and eastern Germans, except perhaps with lower excess Western Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) ancestry and higher Yamnaya-related ancestry.

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/05/two-early-slavs-from-bohemia.html

[Jana]

I don't understand your reasoning.

Hmm. Balts seem purer, both genetically and linguistically (and in comparison with North Slavs). Ignoring N haplogroup, autosomally they are very much NE Europeans without much admixture.

Lithuanian is also most arhaic IE language in Europe. I feel, they may represent more preserved group and Slavic language branched off from Balto-Slavic after assimilating western non IE I2a groups.

Phenotype too. Baltid which is considered epitome of true Slavic look is actually much more common in Balts and named after region they inhabit.

I don't discuss south slavs here btw, as we are very diluted.

[Jana]

Two early Slavs from Bohemia

Two Bohemian Bell Beaker genomes from Allentoft et al. 2015 - RISE568 and RISE569 - are labeled as early Czech Slavs in the new Mathieson et al. 2017 preprint (see rows 148 and 149 in the spreadsheet here).

Obviously these samples were initially wrongly dated to the Bronze Age and misidentified. They really date to 600-900 CE and 660-770 calCE, respectively. It's an unfortunate mistake, but also an interesting situation, because they've been analyzed in great detail in several papers and on this blog, and no one suspected that anything was wrong.

So the fact that these two Medieval Slavs from East Central Europe passed so convincingly for eastern Bell Beakers is a hint of very strong genetic continuity in the region since the Bronze Age. Indeed, they're very similar to present-day Czechs, western Poles (from Poznan), and eastern Germans, except perhaps with lower excess Western Hunter-Gatherer (WHG) ancestry and higher Yamnaya-related ancestry.

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/05/two-early-slavs-from-bohemia.html

These were already bit admixed. Avar Szolad samples from Hungary are purer.

[vbnetkhio]

Discuss.

i think they are, everything points in that direction.
the av2 sample can be modeled as iron/bronze age Baltic + Germanic + Celtic in global 25.
and the i2-din haplogroup probably originated from modern day Germany and brought this Germanic+Celtic.

mongrel/watered down sounds negative btw, i would rather say hybrids, fusion or something.

[Token]

Hmm. Balts seem purer, both genetically and linguistically (and in comparison with North Slavs). Ignoring N haplogroup, autosomally they are very much NE Europeans without much admixture.

Lithuanian is also most arhaic IE language in Europe. I feel, they may represent more preserved group and Slavic language branched off from Balto-Slavic after assimilating western non IE I2a groups.

Phenotype too. Baltid which is considered epitome of true Slavic look is actually much more common in Balts and named after region they inhabit.

I don't discuss south slavs here btw, as we are very diluted.

Slavic drifted away from Baltic under influence of some kind of Centum Indo-European language, and that might have also involved gene flow. Vistula Veneti might have been Celtic or Italo-Celtic speakers based on hydronyms around the Odra and Vistula, and it is well known that Vistula Veneti accompanied Slavs in their dispersions to the south. The Slavic migrations were accompanied by drastic changes in phonology (palatalization, lenition of voiced consonants, etc.) and Northern Adriatic Venetic share the properties that were introduced into Slavic at that time, which might also imply that Vistula Veneti were related to the Veneti in Gaul. That is the mainstream perspective among linguists right now.

[Pribislav]

Hmm. Balts seem purer, both genetically and linguistically (and in comparison with North Slavs). Ignoring N haplogroup, autosomally they are very much NE Europeans without much admixture.

Lithuanian is also most arhaic IE language in Europe. I feel, they may represent more preserved group and Slavic language branched off from Balto-Slavic after assimilating western non IE I2a groups.

Phenotype too. Baltid which is considered epitome of true Slavic look is actually much more common in Balts and named after region they inhabit.

I don't discuss south slavs here btw, as we are very diluted.

Sloveni kod kojih dominira R1a pričaju mekano (Rusi, Ukrajinci, Slovenci, Zagorci) ili sa šuštećim glasovima (Česi, Poljaci). Jugovići kod kojih dominira I2a pričaju čisto i tvrdo, i mogu da izgovore 3-4 suglasnika u nizu (crn, trn, prst, krst) što je za istočne i zapadne Slovene nemoguće.

[Jana]

There is also new development when it comes to I2a-din.

So far only one man has basal (''parent'') clade and he had ancestry from Alsace. Recently another man with same arhaic mutation was discovered, and his ancestry is from South-Western Germany.
Same area as Alsace. This may be the origin of earliest I2-din tribe.

Le's not forget that sister dinaric branches disles and isles live in British Isles. They definitely come from west to east.

[vbnetkhio]

So the fact that these two Medieval Slavs from East Central Europe passed so convincingly for eastern Bell Beakers is a hint of very strong genetic continuity in the region since the Bronze Age.

now that we have more samples i think it's obvious these early Czech Slavs were a mix of Slavic newcomers and local Celts.

[vbnetkhio]

crn, trn, prst, krst

Czechs and Slovaks are west Slavs and they can pronounce this too.

[Renekton]

A mix of balts and something.. else. Basically Mongrels

[Jana]

A mix of balts and something.. else. Basically Mongrels

True. Something like Germans, who are huge mongrels. If you are not a Saxon or Frisian, you're out of luck. Basically watered down Germanic. :)

[Voyt]

A mix of balts and something.. else. Basically Mongrels



Balts are mongrelized from corded germanics with Finns

Finns are mongrelized from northern corded and samoyedic

Basically the least mongrelized modern humans are descendents of SHG(scandi hunter gatherer), who even then are just mix of WHG + EHG (i.e. WHG + WHG + ANE)

[vbnetkhio]

Balts are mongrelized from corded germanics with Finns

Finns are mongrelized from northern corded and samoyedic

Basically the least mongrelized modern humans are descendents of SHG(scandi hunter gatherer), who even then are just mix of WHG + EHG

no, Balts are pretty much pure corded ware. Germanics are Corded Ware + Bell Beaker.

[Voyt]

no, Balts are pretty much pure corded ware. Germanics are Corded Ware + Bell Beaker.



How do you explain their N haplogroup ancestry then?

[Dick]

now that we have more samples i think it's obvious these early Czech Slavs were a mix of Slavic newcomers and local Celts.

Everyone here laughed at Doctor Bosniensis when he said that but he was right?

Forget it. You’re talking about Czechs and not slavs in general

[Jana]

Balts are mongrelized from corded germanics with Finns

Please don't spread nonsense. Germanic admixture is 0% in Balts. Corded Ware was not Germanic lmao.
Proto-Baltic Finns were closest to modern day Estonians, while Finns from Finland are mix of proto-Finnics and Saami.

[Jana]

Finnic influence exist in Latvians due to Livonian presense. In Lithuanians, not. It's hard to explain why they have so much N, because autosomally they don't show anything but NE European basically.
Perhaps N1a (former N1c) was autosomally already very European by time it entered Baltic gene pool. I'll leave this to somebody more knowledgeable to explain.

[Dick]

Finnic influence exist in Latvians due to Livonian presense. In Lithuanians, not. It's hard to explain why they have so much N, because autosomally they don't show anything but NE European basically.
Perhaps N1a (former N1c) was autosomally already very European by time it entered Baltic gene pool. I'll leave this to somebody more knowledgeable to explain.
Obviously spread by some Finnic Chad(MAybe Harkonen’s great grandpa)since Bronze Age ydna in that region was predominantly R1a

[Rumata]

Sloveni kod kojih dominira R1a pričaju mekano (Rusi, Ukrajinci, Slovenci, Zagorci) ili sa šuštećim glasovima (Česi, Poljaci). Jugovići kod kojih dominira I2a pričaju čisto i tvrdo, i mogu da izgovore 3-4 suglasnika u nizu (crn, trn, prst, krst) što je za istočne i zapadne Slovene nemoguće.

Nema problema :laugh:
https://vocaroo.com/i/s1g87Lm5VmFh

And I wouldn't say Ukrainians talk exactly in a low voice...
I do agree that the clear pronunciation of south Slavic languages is cool though.

[Rumata]

The haughty ex-Yugos think only they can pronounce a bunch of consonants toghether :D But the truth is it's just more pleasant to ear when consonants intrechange with vocals. Italian language is a good exemple of it.

[Dick]

Sloveni kod kojih dominira R1a pričaju mekano (Rusi, Ukrajinci, Slovenci, Zagorci) ili sa šuštećim glasovima (Česi, Poljaci). Jugovići kod kojih dominira I2a pričaju čisto i tvrdo, i mogu da izgovore 3-4 suglasnika u nizu (crn, trn, prst, krst) što je za istočne i zapadne Slovene nemoguće.


There is also new development when it comes to I2a-din.

So far only one man has basal (''parent'') clade and he had ancestry from Alsace. Recently another man with same arhaic mutation was discovered, and his ancestry is from South-Western Germany.
Same area as Alsace. This may be the origin of earliest I2-din tribe.

Le's not forget that sister dinaric branches disles and isles live in British Isles. They definitely come from west to east.
Maybe they(I2a tribes) were centum speakers which might explain the clearer and stronger pronunciations of south slavic words

[Jana]

Maybe they(I2a tribes) were centum speakers which might explain the clearer and stronger pronunciations of south slavic words

Yes, when they were indoeuropeanised, it was most certanly from centum speakers.
But I agree with Pribislav, only neo-štokavian has this very clear pronounciation. It sounds like a modern language.
Čakavian and Kajkavian dialects of Croatian sound lot more soft, arhaic and Slavic. Also much less clear. They sound like sweet peasant dialects. Sam applies to Torlak dialect of Serbian.

Neo-Štokavian sound very formal and no wonder it is considered prestige dialect.

[Jana]

Btw, among Slavic languages Slovenian preserved some arhaic Indo-European features to unusual degree.

[Dick]

Sloveni kod kojih dominira R1a pričaju mekano (Rusi, Ukrajinci, Slovenci, Zagorci) ili sa šuštećim glasovima (Česi, Poljaci). Jugovići kod kojih dominira I2a pričaju čisto i tvrdo, i mogu da izgovore 3-4 suglasnika u nizu (crn, trn, prst, krst) što je za istočne i zapadne Slovene nemoguće.


There is also new development when it comes to I2a-din.

So far only one man has basal (''parent'') clade and he had ancestry from Alsace. Recently another man with same arhaic mutation was discovered, and his ancestry is from South-Western Germany.
Same area as Alsace. This may be the origin of earliest I2-din tribe.

Le's not forget that sister dinaric branches disles and isles live in British Isles. They definitely come from west to east.


Yes, when they were indoeuropeanised, it was most certanly from centum speakers.
But I agree with Pribislav, only neo-štokavian has this very clear pronounciation. It sounds like a modern language.
Čakavian and Kajkavian dialects of Croatian sound lot more soft, arhaic and Slavic. Also much less clear. They sound like sweet peasant dialects. Sam applies to Torlak dialect of Serbian.

Neo-Štokavian sound very formal and no wonder it is considered prestige dialect.

It was Dr. Bosniensis that claimed they(i2a) were “Gauls” . The Basal Alsatian dosnt surprise me now

[Dick]

Btw, among Slavic languages Slovenian preserved some arhaic Indo-European features to unusual degree.

Satem or centum? They found the typical Yamnaya male lineage in Roman sample R1016 which is positive for R-S20902 so he probably spoke Archaic Latin. Was yamna centum like the tocharians?

[Hajimurad]

Slavs aren't mongrelized Baltics. This is like saying French are mongrelized Italics. Baltics and Slavs share linguistics, anthropology and genetics due to common Indo-European ancestry and close contacts. Before V-VI centuries Slavs lived in South Poland, Slovakia and western Ukraine. Baltics on other hand occupied Northern Poland, Belarus and western part of European Russia. In the Middle ages majority of Baltic tribes were assimilated by Poles, Russians and Germans. Only Lithuanians and Latvians preserved their ancient tongues.

[Voskos]

I highly doubt it. Different languages.

[vbnetkhio]

How do you explain their N haplogroup ancestry then?

since they have no autosomal Finnic influence, it's what Dick said basically.
there was a very succesful man, king, who was autosomally Baltic and spoke Baltic, he just had a distant Finnic paternal origin(and the haplogroup).
and he and his sons spread this haplogroup.

[Dick]

since they have no autosomal Finnic influence, it's what Dick said basically.
there was a very succesful man, king, who was autosomally Baltic and spoke Baltic, he just had a distant Finnic paternal origin(and the haplogroup).
and he and his sons spread this haplogroup.

Lol “In other words” yes that’s what I said. Chieftains always had the first dibs on tail in a tribe

[vbnetkhio]

Maybe they(I2a tribes) were centum speakers which might explain the clearer and stronger pronunciations of south slavic words

the r1a and i2a "tribes" were probably competely merged, by genetics and language, back in the proto-Slavic homeland. the clearer and stronger pronunciation comes from the "e-v13 Vlachs"

[vbnetkhio]

I highly doubt it. Different languages.

no.. Slavic and Baltic are each other's closest relatives. they are just dialects of Balto-Slavic in fact. Lithuanian is the most different from Slavic, Latvian already shows a shift towards Slavic compared to Lithuanian.

There were probably dozens of Baltic languages that were even more similar to Slavic, but they went extinct

[Pribislav]

the r1a and i2a "tribes" were probably competely merged, by genetics and language, back in the proto-Slavic homeland. the clearer and stronger pronunciation comes from the "e-v13 Vlachs"

Torlakian speakers have stronger paleo-Balkanic genetic input than shtokavian speakers and their speech sounds more old Slavic and have some other arhaic Slavic element which doesn't exist in shtokavian (same goes for chakavian and kaykavian).

[Pribislav]

It was Dr. Bosniensis that claimed they(i2a) were “Gauls” . The Basal Alsatian dosnt surprise me now

There is theory that ikavian reflex of yat among Slavs in Celtic heritage. Except southwestern Slavs only among Ukrainian and Czechs exist ikavian reflex. Ukrainian ikavism was observed first time in 15th century, and SW Slavic in 13th. In western Ukraine were exist ikavica lived Celts once, same goes for Czechia.

[vbnetkhio]

Torlakian speakers have stronger paleo-Balkanic genetic input than shtokavian speakers and their speech sounds more old Slavic and have some other arhaic Slavic element which doesn't exist in shtokavian (same goes for chakavian and kaykavian).

how do you define more archaic and Slavic sounding?

listen to how the Slovak woman pronounces "usta" comapred to Polish. she says "it's the same but we say "uuusta"", like in Serbian.
and in Russian it's ustá, different from both those.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TlYItyfnA8

[Pribislav]

how do you define more archaic and Slavic sounding?

listen to how the Slovak woman pronounces "usta" comapred to Polish. she says "it's the same but we say "uuusta"", like in Serbian.
and in russian it's ustá, different from both those.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TlYItyfnA8

Torlakian sounds softer and more Russian shifted neo-shtokavian.

[Joso]

Hello Berkan

[vbnetkhio]

Torlakian sounds softer and more Russian shifted neo-shtokavian.

and neo-shtokavian sounds like Slovak

[Pribislav]

and neo-shtokavian sounds like Slovak

Because of that Slovak is most familiar Slavic language outside of Balkan to me.

Speech in "Zona Zamfirova" (Torlakian) have more Old Slavic/Russian/Church Slavonic vibe than speech in "Orlovi rano lete" or "Prosjaci i sinovi" (Neo Shtokavian).

[Dick]

the r1a and i2a "tribes" were probably competely merged, by genetics and language, back in the proto-Slavic homeland. the clearer and stronger pronunciation comes from the "e-v13 Vlachs"

It dosnt sound that clear to me, more like East Slavic trying to speak a Romance language. Also Aromuns are more R1b, J2 and I2a2 from a 2005 study



https://youtu.be/YZg5vnJBBB8

[vbnetkhio]

It dosnt sound that clear to me, more like East Slavic trying to speak a Romance language. Also Aromuns are more R1b, J2 and I2a2 from a 2005 study



https://youtu.be/YZg5vnJBBB8

i meant the pre-Slavic population of Western Balkans who were mostly e-v13. anyway a Portuguese can learn Serbian pronounciation easily, and we can learn Portuguese, but a Russian can study Serbian for 10 years and still speak with a strong accent.

[Dick]

anyway a Portuguese can learn Serbian pronounciation easily.

I highly doubt that

[Pribislav]

i meant the pre-Slavic population of Western Balkans who were mostly e-v13. anyway a Portuguese can learn Serbian pronounciation easily, and we can learn Portuguese, but a Russian can study Serbian for 10 years and still speak with a strong accent.

Kriči were Latin speaking Vlachs who are slavized/serbified probably in 14th century, they were J2b-M205 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriči

[vbnetkhio]

I highly doubt that

Brazilian(Portuguese speaker):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg753w_M3zA

Russian living in Serbia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDHHCL99itk

[Tauromachos]

Early Slavs were just Balts basicly impregnated with some Greek sperm"in particular their YDNA", thats why some
Slavs score Peloponnesian or even Minoan Greek and how the Pontid and Dinaric phenotype came into Slavs

[vbnetkhio]

Kriči were Latin speaking Vlachs who are slavized/serbified probably in 14th century, they were J2b-M205 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kriči

yes. but e-v13 is the 3rd most common haplogroup among south Slavs after i2a and r1a.

[Dick]

Brazilian(Portuguese speaker):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg753w_M3zA

Russian living in Serbia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDHHCL99itk

Some people can pick up accents well when learning languages , others can’t on an individual basis

[vbnetkhio]

Some people can pick up accents well when learning languages , others can’t on an individual basis

i'm pretty sure our phonology is actually similar to Romance languages.

[Dick]

i'm pretty sure our phonology is actually similar to Romance languages.

Some Anglo Canadians can speak perfect French without an accent, others can not

[Voyt]

Brazilian(Portuguese speaker):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg753w_M3zA

Russian living in Serbia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDHHCL99itk

Of course this is the case; the Suebi (Srbi) imparted the Serbian accent in Portugal

[Rumata]

Early Slavs were just Balts basicly impregnated with some Greek sperm

Tbh, you sound like early Dorians were impregnated by some mountain Albanians' sperm.

[Alenka]

https://youtu.be/YZg5vnJBBB8
To what extent are Aromanian and Romanian mutually inteligible (if at all), I wonder?

[Dick]

To what extent are Aromanian and Romanian mutually inteligible (if at all), I wonder?

Some phrases sounded Korean.

[Voyt]

since they have no autosomal Finnic influence, it's what Dick said basically.
there was a very succesful man, king, who was autosomally Baltic and spoke Baltic, he just had a distant Finnic paternal origin(and the haplogroup).
and he and his sons spread this haplogroup.


wut, there's clearly Finnish admixture in Balts. Genetics proves it, just friggin looking at them proves it. They look a lot more EHG than Scandinavians do.

https://indo-european.eu/2019/05/balto-finnic-peoples-in-the-bronze-age-of-hg-r1a-z283-and-corded-ware-ancestry/


"When comparing Estonian CWC and EstBA using autosomal outgroup f3 and Patterson’s D statistics (Table S3), the latter is more similar to other Baltic BA populations, to Baltic IA and Middle Age (MA) populations, and also to populations similar to WHGs and Scandinavian hunter-gatherers (SHGs), but not to Estonian CCC (Figures 2A and S2A; Data S1). The increase in WHG or SHG ancestry could be connected to western influences seen in material culture [20, 21] and facilitated by a decline in local population after the CCC-CWC period [20]. A slight trend of bigger similarity of Estonian CWC to forest or steppe zone populations and of EstBA to European early farmer populations can also be seen.

(…) When comparing to modern populations, Estonian CWC is slightly more similar to Caucasus individuals but EstBA to Baltic populations and Finnic speakers (Figure 2B; Data S1). Outgroup f3 and D statistics do not reveal apparent differences when comparing EstBA to EstIA, EstIA to IngIA, and EstIA to EstMA (Data S1)."

Where do modern Lithuanians and Estonians fit in?

https://i.imgur.com/wUpXdAN.png

Almost right between Finns and Scandinavians, just as I said


Please don't spread nonsense. Germanic admixture is 0% in Balts. Corded Ware was not Germanic lmao.
Proto-Baltic Finns were closest to modern day Estonians, while Finns from Finland are mix of proto-Finnics and Saami.


Sorry I meant Bell Beaker Germanics (I always confuse BB with CW)
well not Germanic per-se, but pre-Germanics: https://indo-european.eu/2019/04/pre-germanic-and-pre-balto-finnic-shared-vocabulary-from-pitted-ware-seal-hunters/

[Mingle]

i'm pretty sure our phonology is actually similar to Romance languages.

One feature that sticks out among Slavic languages is their Ž sound that make it easy to tell apart from Romance languages. However, Portuguese is a Romance language but it has that sound. That's why its often said that Portuguese sounds like Russian. But its the only exception AFAIK.

[Mingle]

wut, there's clearly Finnish admixture in Balts. Genetics proves it, just friggin looking at them proves it. They look a lot more EHG than Scandinavians do.

https://indo-european.eu/2019/05/balto-finnic-peoples-in-the-bronze-age-of-hg-r1a-z283-and-corded-ware-ancestry/


"When comparing Estonian CWC and EstBA using autosomal outgroup f3 and Patterson’s D statistics (Table S3), the latter is more similar to other Baltic BA populations, to Baltic IA and Middle Age (MA) populations, and also to populations similar to WHGs and Scandinavian hunter-gatherers (SHGs), but not to Estonian CCC (Figures 2A and S2A; Data S1). The increase in WHG or SHG ancestry could be connected to western influences seen in material culture [20, 21] and facilitated by a decline in local population after the CCC-CWC period [20]. A slight trend of bigger similarity of Estonian CWC to forest or steppe zone populations and of EstBA to European early farmer populations can also be seen.

(…) When comparing to modern populations, Estonian CWC is slightly more similar to Caucasus individuals but EstBA to Baltic populations and Finnic speakers (Figure 2B; Data S1). Outgroup f3 and D statistics do not reveal apparent differences when comparing EstBA to EstIA, EstIA to IngIA, and EstIA to EstMA (Data S1)."

Where do modern Lithuanians and Estonians fit in?

https://i.imgur.com/wUpXdAN.png

Almost right between Finns and Scandinavians, just as I said




Sorry I meant Bell Beaker Germanics (I always confuse BB with CW)
well not Germanic per-se, but pre-Germanics: https://indo-european.eu/2019/04/pre-germanic-and-pre-balto-finnic-shared-vocabulary-from-pitted-ware-seal-hunters/

Proto-Finnics are believed to have originated in the Baltics, a bit east of modern day Estonia in the Gulf of Finland region. Latvia also used to have a significant Finnic (Liv) presence in the past as well.

[Kamal900]

One feature that sticks out among Slavic languages is their Ž sound that make it easy to tell apart from Romance languages. However, Portuguese is a Romance language but it has that sound. That's why its often said that Portuguese sounds like Russian. But its the only exception AFAIK.

The Portuguese are the Slavs of the Romance speaking peoples. I've seen some Portuguese members wear Adidas and squatting while drinking their wine.

[Dna8]

To what extent are Aromanian and Romanian mutually inteligible (if at all), I wonder?

They are not mutually intelligible.

[Ymyyakhtakh]

One feature that sticks out among Slavic languages is their Ž sound that make it easy to tell apart from Romance languages. However, Portuguese is a Romance language but it has that sound. That's why its often said that Portuguese sounds like Russian. But its the only exception AFAIK.

If you mean /ʒ/ (voiced postalveolar fricative), French and Romanian have it too:

https://i.imgur.com/PlC9g0N.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/YT0JTWM.jpg

Italian has /dʒ/, which is in some dialects sometimes pronounced as /ʒ/ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_phonology): "In Tuscany and beyond in Central and Southern Italy, intervocalic non-geminate /d͡ʒ/ is realized as [ʒ] (parallel to /t͡ʃ/ realized as [ʃ] described above)."

Finnish might be the European language with the smallest inventory of frictatives, because the only fricatives in native words in the standard Finnish dialect are /s/ and /h/. Even the letter "v" in Finnish orthography is realized as /ʋ/ (labiodental approximant), which is not counted as a frictative. (The phoneme /h/ has the allophones /x/, /ç/, and /ɦ/, but few speakers are conscious of their existence, and they are not marked in Finnish orthography.)

[Mingle]

Forgot about French. They use that sound a lot as well. It doesn't sound Slavic like Portuguese does though probably cause they also use the [ʁ] sound a lot as well.

[Rumata]

The Portuguese are the Slavs of the Romance speaking peoples. I've seen some Portuguese members wear Adidas and squatting while drinking their wine.

To say that Slavs squat is like to say that Arabs bomb civilians. A negative stereotype. Also, drinking outside is prohibited here.

[Kamal900]

To say that Slavs squat is like to say that Arabs bomb civilians. A negative stereotype. Also, drinking outside is prohibited here.

Dude, it's just a joke about the whole gopnik culture if Russia, geez.

[Rumata]

Dude, it's just a joke about the whole gopnik culture if Russia, geez.

I see, but some readers could take the words seriously. While squoting is very rare beyond gopnik and criminal subcultures. You'll sooner see a MENA gopnik squating than a Russian proffesor doing so :D

[Kamal900]

I see, but some readers could take the words seriously. While squoting is very rare beyond gopnik and criminal subcultures. You'll sooner see a MENA gopnik squating than a Russian proffesor doing so :D

I guess I got this perception due on the fact that I watched a lot of videos of Life of Boris from Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/user/NocturnoPlays

[Rumata]

I guess I got this perception due on the fact that I watched a lot of videos of Life of Boris from Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/user/NocturnoPlays

Youtube channales made for еpatage are poorly connected with reality.

[Rumata]

Reality:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7H3OE9ACyI

[Kamal900]

Reality:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7H3OE9ACyI

I don't see the whole gopnik culture as necessarily a bad thing really. I mean, I'm aware that Russia isn't some necropolis hellhole like Haiti for example.

[Rumata]

I don't see the whole gopnik culture as necessarily a bad thing really. I mean, I'm aware that Russia isn't some necropolis hellhole like Haiti for example.

Oh, it's refreshing you don't see Russia as a hellhole like Haiti.

Gopniks are essentially a part of criminality. And who wants criminality?

[Rumata]

Just keep in mind that many criminals don't squot on streets but sit in cabinets. Squoting part is almost neglectable here.

[Kamal900]

Oh, it's refreshing you don't see Russia as a hellhole like Haiti.

Gopniks are essentially a part of criminality. And who wants criminality?

I never knew gopniks are criminals. I always thought they like the chavs in the UK or hoodlums in the US.

[Rumata]

I never knew gopniks are criminals. I always thought they like the chavs in the UK or hoodlums in the US.

They are small criminals but of course connected with more organized structures. So, when police was weak they'd beat money out of passerbys on regular basis. Afaik, chavs are similar even if a bit less hardcore.

[Voskos]

https://i.stack.imgur.com/HwyPg.jpg
http://cdn8.openculture.com/2017/08/27223953/lexical-distance-among-the-languages-of-europe-2-1-mid-size.png

[Jana]

I squat often. Did that since childhood and that is why my feet is very low. I found it most comfortable way to sit on chair as little. Parents had lot of problems in school because of way I sat.

And funny thing is I had no idea squating culture exists among Eastern Slavs until few years ago.

[Jana]

I squat often. Did that since childhood and that is why my feet is very low. I found it most comfortable way to sit on chair as little. Parents had lot of problems in school because of way I sat.

And funny thing is I had no idea squating culture exists among Eastern Slavs until few years ago.

[Rumata]

I squat often. Did that since childhood and that is why my feet is very low. I found it most comfortable way to sit on chair as little. Parents had lot of problems in school because of way I sat.

I squat often. Did that since childhood and that is why my feet is very low. I found it most comfortable way to sit on chair as little. Parents had lot of problems in school because of way I sat.

And funny thing is I had no idea squating culture exists among Eastern Slavs until few years ago.

I used to squat as a child too. Sometimes. It was just another pose one could take, that's all.
I've never related to gopniks and I had no idea this pose could make me look like one or something.

There's no such a thing as squating culture among normal people. Some people squat sometimes - that's all. Gopniks are anomal so weird things are expected there. I won't bother to anylise the reason why they do it.

Btw, squating harms blood flow to the feet (in knee area).

[vbnetkhio]

wut, there's clearly Finnish admixture in Balts. Genetics proves it, just friggin looking at them proves it. They look a lot more EHG than Scandinavians do.

https://indo-european.eu/2019/05/balto-finnic-peoples-in-the-bronze-age-of-hg-r1a-z283-and-corded-ware-ancestry/


indo-european.eu is an unreliable source. he tries to push some anti-Indo-European Turanist theories.


Where do modern Lithuanians and Estonians fit in?

https://i.imgur.com/wUpXdAN.png

Almost right between Finns and Scandinavians, just as I said

where do you see that? Finns/Russians/Mordovians are clearly like Lithuaninans, but pulled towards ANE.

[Rumata]

http://cdn8.openculture.com/2017/08/27223953/lexical-distance-among-the-languages-of-europe-2-1-mid-size.png

I wonder why among Slavic languages it's Slovenian that is located closest to Albanian.

[Ymyyakhtakh]

In Japan there's also a stereotype that "yankees" (junior delinguents or criminal types) squat:

http://clover48.com/trend/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/E1431652237353_19fb_9.jpg

Squatting in public is still seen as acceptable in Japan. I don't know if there's any other culture except the west where people are not allowed to sit on the floor or the ground. Somehow white people only have the capability to sit on a raised platform.

I just squatted outside the kebab place while I was waiting for my kebab, because yolo.

[Jana]

I used to squat as a child too. Sometimes. It was just another pose one could take, that's all.
I've never related to gopniks and I had no idea this pose could make me look like one or something.

There's no such a thing as squating culture among normal people. Some people squat sometimes - that's all. Gopniks are anomal so weird things are expected there. I won't bother to anylise the reason why they do it.

Btw, squating harms blood flow to the feet (in knee area).

Well said. Because I squat a lot in childhood, my bones became very flexible and I can squat with both feet fully on the ground without feeling any pain (in fact, it's very comfortable for me).
Most people can only squat with tip of their foot on the ground, and not for long.

My ankles became extremely elastic due to squatting:
https://i.imgur.com/HPEZFqv.jpg?1

[Voyt]

Proto-Finnics are believed to have originated in the Baltics, a bit east of modern day Estonia in the Gulf of Finland region. Latvia also used to have a significant Finnic (Liv) presence in the past as well.

So as those Finnics moved to Finland obviously many would have stayed behind to intermix with the proto-Balts

[vbnetkhio]

So as those Finnics moved to Finland obviously many would have stayed behind to intermix with the proto-Balts

exactly. they are called Estonians. Estonians are Baltic bronze age + Uralic newcomers. Lithuanians and Latvians are Baltic bronze age pulled south/west, by some Celtic/Germanic/Slavic influence

read this:
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/05/uralic-specific-genome-wide-ancestry.html

[War Chef]

They are forest-balts who learned the brutal ways of the nomads. This gave them an advantage over the real Balts. The steppe ways are brutal

[War Chef]

I wonder why among Slavic languages it's Slovenian that is located closest to Albanian.

Slovenian most likely has some Illyrian substrate. Illyrians extended even a little further north.

[Rumata]

Well said. Because I squat a lot in childhood, my bones became very flexible and I can squat with both feet fully on the ground without feeling any pain (in fact, it's very comfortable for me).
Most people can only squat with tip of their foot on the ground, and not for long.

My ankles became extremely elastic due to squatting:

I can do it on the full feet too. I think I could do it like always :)
It causes much more strain to squat on toes. No wonder they can't do it for long.

Afaik, one can't squat if ones legs are too thick (were that muscles or fat). Some other reasons might prevent doing it too. So sitting 'this style' is largely unavailable for some fatter peoples ;)

[Rumata]

Slovenian most likely has some Illyrian substrate. Illyrians extended even a little further north.
Might be so. But the Serbs, who live closer to Albanians than Slovenians do, say that their native Balkan ancestry is different from that of Albanians...

[Jana]

I can do it on the full feet too. I think I could do it like always :)
It causes much more strain to squat on toes. No wonder they can't do it for long.

Cool! Maybe it's a Slavic thing :P


Afaik, one can't squat if ones legs are too thick (were that muscles or fat). Some other reasons might prevent doing it too. So sitting 'this style' is largely unavailable for some fatter peoples ;)

:thumb001:

[Rumata]

Cool! Maybe it's a Slavic thing :P

:thumb001:
Or just a thing of slim people :D

I have a wild guess it could get some hate from those who are too fat to do it :p

[Sche]

My ankles became extremely elastic due to squatting:

The problem with the ligaments. In old age you can walk on crutches.

[CordedWhelp]

Or just a thing of slim people :D

I have a wild guess it could get some hate from those who are too fat to do it :p

I used to do it a lot as a kid and it would kind of amaze my teachers and such...lol...

I don't do it all that consistently now, so mainly can only do it comfortably for more than a few seconds on tippy toes...and I'm a fairly fit guy. I think another factor is just how much one works out and stretches out the ankles and such.

[War Chef]

Might be so. But the Serbs, who live closer to Albanians than Slovenians do, say that their native Balkan ancestry is different from that of Albanians...

As far as I know, Serbo-Croatian which encompasses a lot of ppl (Croats, Bosniaks, Serbs) have different history. I think they arrived via. Carpathians later on or something. Meh

[Bornoz]

''just mongrel/watered down Balts'' :lol:
What kind of a phenotype could make those people valuable?

[Jana]

The problem with the ligaments. In old age you can walk on crutches.

:cry2

I can do strange elastic things with fingers, too.
My friends call me the weirdo xD

https://i.imgur.com/oCd3Z0l.jpg

[Jana]

''just mongrel/watered down Balts'' :lol:
What kind of a phenotype could make those people valuable?

It's just a catchy title meaning perhaps proto Slavs became a thing when they absorbed something else, which Balts did not.
Proud Slavic here :)

[War Chef]

:cry2

I can do strange elastic things with fingers, too.
My friends call me the weirdo xD

https://i.imgur.com/oCd3Z0l.jpg

Do you have Marfan Syndrome by any chance?

[Sche]

It's just a catchy title meaning perhaps proto Slavs became a thing when they absorbed something else, which Balts did not.
Proud Slavic here :)
The first Slavs are Russians. We did not absorb anything. We are the same as several thousand years ago. Modern balts are not balts. These are the remnants of the forest Baltic-Slavic population of the north. Real Balts (core) were similar to Russians and Mordovians (without Siberia).

[Rumata]

I used to do it a lot as a kid and it would kind of amaze my teachers and such...lol...

I don't do it all that consistently now, so mainly can only do it comfortably for more than a few seconds on tippy toes...and I'm a fairly fit guy. I think another factor is just how much one works out and stretches out the ankles and such.
Interesting. I wonder why your teachers were amazed :) Why couldn't they do the same.

One factor is how much the ankle ligaments can stretch.
And another factor probably is how thick hips are.

[Jana]

Do you have Marfan Syndrome by any chance?

Never heard about it, but this description is very much like me:

People with Marfan tend to be tall and thin, with long arms, legs, fingers and toes. They also typically have flexible joints and scoliosis

Thanks you for information. I will ask doctor about it.

[Rumata]

I can do strange elastic things with fingers, too.
My friends call me the weirdo xD

https://i.imgur.com/oCd3Z0l.jpg

I can't do such things but I've seen people who could.
Btw, I have hypermobility of joints.

[War Chef]

Never heard about it, but this description is very much like me:


Thanks you for information. I will ask doctor about it.

I'm a nurse, so yah you're welcome. ;)

[Jana]

The first Slavs are Russians. We did not absorb anything. We are the same as several thousand years ago. Modern balts are not balts. These are the remnants of the forest Baltic-Slavic population of the north. Real Balts (core) were similar to Russians and Mordovians (without Siberia).

Why are modern Balts not real Balts? They are already similar to Belarusians and Russians from, Pskov, for example.

[Jana]

I'm a nurse, so yah you're welcome. ;)

Cool :D :thumb001:

[Ülev]

The first Slavs are Russians. We did not absorb anything. We are the same as several thousand years ago. Modern balts are not balts. These are the remnants of the forest Baltic-Slavic population of the north. Real Balts (core) were similar to Russians and Mordovians (without Siberia).

Interesting phenotype

https://youtu.be/Nh86P5BW3sU

[Rumata]

The real question left is if the Balts even can squat :confused:

[Sarmatian]

True, they were proto-Balto-Slavs, but you're wrong about the ones that didn't move turning into proto-Slavs; it was the ones that moved southwest into southern Belarus and west-Ukraine that intermixed with the steppe peoples to turn into proto-Slavs. Those that stayed in the northeast turned into proto-Balts, and those proto-Balts didn't move anywhere; they were just assimilated by the east-Slavs millennia following: (for example the eastern Galindians: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galindians#/media/File:Slav-7-8-obrez.png ) This is why so many Russians today have Baltic genes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_languages#Genetic_relatedness

First of all lets clear the fact there is no Baltic nor Slavic genes, only Baltic and Slavic languages.

Secondly current spread of Baltic and Slavic languages only reveal the latest migrations and mixes. What was the original spread at the time of common proto-Balto-Slavic and what movement was shortly after we will never know.

So I think it's impossible at this stage to determine priority of development. There are few conflicting theories that will never be resolved.

[Sarmatian]

Hmm. Balts seem purer, both genetically and linguistically (and in comparison with North Slavs). Ignoring N haplogroup, autosomally they are very much NE Europeans without much admixture.

Lithuanian is also most arhaic IE language in Europe. I feel, they may represent more preserved group and Slavic language branched off from Balto-Slavic after assimilating western non IE I2a groups.

Phenotype too. Baltid which is considered epitome of true Slavic look is actually much more common in Balts and named after region they inhabit.

I don't discuss south slavs here btw, as we are very diluted.

That only tells us that Balts were isolated from alien linguistic and genetic elements for much of their existence. Nothing else.

[Not a Cop]

That only tells us that Balts were isolated from alien linguistic and genetic elements for much of their existence. Nothing else.

Well Slavs also were isolated, it just seems that Slavs mixed with some southern element at the begging and than became the stabilised mix.

[War Chef]

Well Slavs also were isolated, it just seems that Slavs mixed with some southern element at the begging and than became the stabilised mix.

A lot of Scythians on GEDmatch are almost indistinguishable from Ukrainians.
Slavs could easily be 50% Scythian 50% Baltic hybrid

[Not a Cop]

A lot of Scythians on GEDmatch are almost indistinguishable from Ukrainians.
Slavs could easily be 50% Scythian 50% Baltic hybrid

Could be, but Scythians were very heterogenous.

[War Chef]

Could be, but Scythians were very heterogenous.

yeah i guess you would have to see the original andronovo/sintashta/arkaim GEDmatch results.......theres a few but i dont remember who they resemble

[Daos777]

A lot of Scythians on GEDmatch are almost indistinguishable from Ukrainians.
Slavs could easily be 50% Scythian 50% Baltic hybrid

This is what I believe too, although it’s probably not 50/50 the Baltic/Slavic element is more dominant in Ukrainians. Probably like 30-40% Scythian.

[Sarmatian]

Well Slavs also were isolated, it just seems that Slavs mixed with some southern element at the begging and than became the stabilised mix.

Even while being relatively isolated overall Slavs were exposed to Iranic and Turkic influences far more than Balts.

[vbnetkhio]

Slavs could easily be 50% Scythian 50% Baltic hybrid

Slavs show Celtic and Germanic influence compared to Balts.
since some Scythian samples were Celtic-like and Germanic-like, it might as well be from them, autosomally.

but the problem is Slavs don't have any Scythian haplogroups in large numbers (r1a-z93, r1b-z2103)

[Peterski]

Slavs show Celtic and Germanic influence compared to Balts.

Slavs are intermediate between Balts and Germanics but question is if it is due to admixture or just very ancient pattern dating back to Early Indo-European times (for example this is what we would expect if the Proto-Slavic homeland was located between the Proto-Baltic homeland and the Proto-Germanic homeland).

[Mingle]

This is what I believe too, although it’s probably not 50/50 the Baltic/Slavic element is more dominant in Ukrainians. Probably like 30-40% Scythian.The Scythians of Eastern Europe are genetically very distant to the Scythians from Central Asia where they originated. The ones in EE are probably mostly Slavic genetically with minor original Scythian DNA. Considering how genetically close Ukrainians are to Poles (and the average Pole has insignificant Scythian ancestry), we can't blame Scythians for the southern shift of Slavs. It's most likely from mixing with Germanics and Celtics as another user said.

[vbnetkhio]

The Scythians of Eastern Europe are genetically very distant to the Scythians from Central Asia where they originated. The ones in EE are probably mostly Slavic genetically with minor original Scythian DNA. Considering how genetically close Ukrainians are to Poles (and the average Pole has insignificant Scythian ancestry), we can't blame Scythians for the southern shift of Slavs. It's most likely from mixing with Germanics and Celtics as another user said.

how could Scythians be mostly Slavic, if Slavs formed, as a relatively small group, around 200-300 bc, when Scythians were already fading and being replaced by Sarmatians?

yes, Scythians probably originated in Andronovo(modern Kazakhstan) ,migrated west and absorbed the remains of Yamnaya people, who weren't genetically Slavic-like

[vbnetkhio]

Slavs are intermediate between Balts and Germanics but question is if it is due to admixture or just very ancient pattern dating back to Early Indo-European times (for example this is what we would expect if the Proto-Slavic homeland was located between the Proto-Baltic homeland and the Proto-Germanic homeland).

that period was the early Corded ware, when Corded ware extended from Volga to France. but then the early Slav sample would get , for example, Baltic Corded ware + German Corded Ware in oracles, right? we have samples of both. but it doesn't get that , it get's Baltic + Celtic or Celtic-like + Scandinavian iron/bronze age samples.

maybe Slavs were originally just Baltic + Celtic, Celtic was brought by this Veneti group hypothesized by some Archaeologists and linguists, who also brought the i2a1 haplogroup with them, and then the Germanic influence was brought afterwards by the Goths?

[Daos777]

The Scythians of Eastern Europe are genetically very distant to the Scythians from Central Asia where they originated. The ones in EE are probably mostly Slavic genetically with minor original Scythian DNA. Considering how genetically close Ukrainians are to Poles (and the average Pole has insignificant Scythian ancestry), we can't blame Scythians for the southern shift of Slavs. It's most likely from mixing with Germanics and Celtics as another user said.

How do Poles have insignificant Scythian like DNA when Poland was Sarmatian land who were pretty numerous?

I don’t believe that Scythians and Sarmatians just disappeared somewhere or all got killed off. They had to have been assimilated by the Slavs. And their DNA could be what gives Ukrainians and Poles the southern shift.

[Cumansky]

How do Poles have insignificant Scythian like DNA when Poland was Sarmatian land who were pretty numerous?

I don’t believe that Scythians and Sarmatians just disappeared somewhere or all got killed off. They had to have been assimilated by the Slavs. And their DNA could be what gives Ukrainians and Poles the southern shift.

I did a study to isolate Ukrainian Scythian admixture in Europe using Global 25 ancient samples:

Scythians West

37.6 Serbian 5
34.4 Avar 1 Hungary Szolad
34.2 Dorkymon (Romanian)
32.2 Cumansky (Polish, Ukrainian West)
30 Croatian 198
28.4 Belarusian 13
25.2 Username (Bosnian)
24.4 Kaspias (Bulgarian)
23.2 Dibran (Albanian)
23.2 Russian Smolensk 312
22.6 Cossack Kuban
22 Alain Dad (Polish East)
21.6 Polish 13
20.8 Ph2ter (Croatian)
20.8 Cossack Ukrainian
19.2 MatAust21 Dad (Polish,German,Italian)
19 MatAust21 (Polish,German,Italian)
18.6 Alain (Polish)
18.4 Michal3141 (Polish East)
17.2 Hungarian D1
14.2 Hungarian S1
13.4 MatAust21 Mom (Polish,German,Italian)
13.2 Roma GS15870
11.6 Koolmets (Ashkenazi Jew,German,Romani)
11.4 Koolmets Dad (German,Romani)
10.8 Turkish Istanbul 19185
10.2 Roma GS14352
7.6 North Russian Pinega 1
7.6 Belarusian 1
7.4 Dewsloth Dad (German,British,Belgian,Ashkenazi Jew)
5.8 Aroon1916 (Irish,British)
5 Finn (Friso Saxon)
5 Finn Dad (Friso Saxon)
5 Finn Mom (Friso Saxon)
4.8 Vettor (Italian North)
4.2 JMCB (Northwest European Mixed)
4.2 Radboud (Dutch)
3.4 Jonahst (Ashkenazi Jew)
3.4 Talombo (Sephardic Jew Israeli)
2.2 Dewsloth Mom (Lebanese Christian)

And this is Scythian Pazyryk admixture in Europe (The one he is claiming original Scythians)

Scythians East

16.4 Roma GS14352
13.4 North Russian Pinega 1
11.2 Turkish Istanbul 19185
10.8 Finnish 00282
9.4 Kaspias (Bulgarian)
9 Roma GS15870
2.6 Cossack Kuban
2.6 Dorkymon (Romanian)
1.8 Polish 13
1.6 Cossack Ukrainian
1.6 Michal3141 (Polish East)
0.8 Cumansky (Polish, Ukrainian West)
0.8 Belarusian 13
0.8 Talombo (Sephardic Jew Israeli)
0.8 Alain Dad (Polish East)

To briefly conclude, you look to have alot influence of Serbs and potentially a trace of the Roma or (Pashtun) like DNA so you will be in that 99% percentile of closeness to ancient Scythians is no surprise to me after running your data before you draw from the two closest Scythian groups that I can find, both West and East you have their DNA

[Daos777]

I did a study to isolate Ukrainian Scythian admixture in Europe using Global 25 ancient samples:

Scythians West

37.6 Serbian 5
34.4 Avar 1 Hungary Szolad
34.2 Dorkymon (Romanian)
32.2 Cumansky (Polish, Ukrainian West)
30 Croatian 198
28.4 Belarusian 13
25.2 Username (Bosnian)
24.4 Kaspias (Bulgarian)
23.2 Dibran (Albanian)
23.2 Russian Smolensk 312
22.6 Cossack Kuban
22 Alain Dad (Polish East)
21.6 Polish 13
20.8 Ph2ter (Croatian)
20.8 Cossack Ukrainian
19.2 MatAust21 Dad (Polish,German,Italian)
19 MatAust21 (Polish,German,Italian)
18.6 Alain (Polish)
18.4 Michal3141 (Polish East)
17.2 Hungarian D1
14.2 Hungarian S1
13.4 MatAust21 Mom (Polish,German,Italian)
13.2 Roma GS15870
11.6 Koolmets (Ashkenazi Jew,German,Romani)
11.4 Koolmets Dad (German,Romani)
10.8 Turkish Istanbul 19185
10.2 Roma GS14352
7.6 North Russian Pinega 1
7.6 Belarusian 1
7.4 Dewsloth Dad (German,British,Belgian,Ashkenazi Jew)
5.8 Aroon1916 (Irish,British)
5 Finn (Friso Saxon)
5 Finn Dad (Friso Saxon)
5 Finn Mom (Friso Saxon)
4.8 Vettor (Italian North)
4.2 JMCB (Northwest European Mixed)
4.2 Radboud (Dutch)
3.4 Jonahst (Ashkenazi Jew)
3.4 Talombo (Sephardic Jew Israeli)
2.2 Dewsloth Mom (Lebanese Christian)

And this is Scythian Pazyryk admixture in Europe (The one he is claiming original Scythians)

Scythians East

16.4 Roma GS14352
13.4 North Russian Pinega 1
11.2 Turkish Istanbul 19185
10.8 Finnish 00282
9.4 Kaspias (Bulgarian)
9 Roma GS15870
2.6 Cossack Kuban
2.6 Dorkymon (Romanian)
1.8 Polish 13
1.6 Cossack Ukrainian
1.6 Michal3141 (Polish East)
0.8 Cumansky (Polish, Ukrainian West)
0.8 Belarusian 13
0.8 Talombo (Sephardic Jew Israeli)
0.8 Alain Dad (Polish East)

To briefly conclude, you look to have alot influence of Serbs and potentially a trace of the Roma or (Pashtun) like DNA so you will be in that 99% percentile of closeness to ancient Scythians is no surprise to me after running your data before you draw from the two closest Scythian groups that I can find, both West and East you have their DNA

That’s awesome. My south Asian was Tajik on the new livingdna update so it’s most likely not Roma but who knows.

Can you add me to both of those lists?

Daos_scaled,0.126344,0.114755,0.056568,0.04522,0.0 30467,0.019243,0.00564,-0.002308,-0.00634,-0.014761,-0.002598,-0.010041,0.016353,0.015689,-0.018865,0.010607,0.021905,-0.004941,-0.00729,0.004377,0.004118,-0.003339,0.004807,-0.00012,-0.006826

[vbnetkhio]

How do Poles have insignificant Scythian like DNA when Poland was Sarmatian land who were pretty numerous?

I don’t believe that Scythians and Sarmatians just disappeared somewhere or all got killed off. They had to have been assimilated by the Slavs. And their DNA could be what gives Ukrainians and Poles the southern shift.

Scythians and Sarmatians are not the same.
abd neither of them were very numerous in Poland.
and Polish don't have a southern shift, they are pretty north European genetically. except the Silesian Poles which are pulled southwest by Celtic influence.


Ukrainians are a different story. they have Caucasian shift, which might be partly from steppe peoples, which could be up to 50% caucasian.
and they have increased percentage of r1b-z2103 haplogroup, which was found in Scythians.

[Daos777]

Scythians and Sarmatians are not the same.
abd neither of them were very numerous in Poland.
and Polish don't have a southern shift, they are pretty north European genetically. except the Silesian Poles which are pulled southwest by Celtic influence.


Ukrainians are a different story. they have Caucasian shift, which might be partly from steppe peoples, which could be up to 50% caucasian.
and they have increased percentage of r1b-z2103 haplogroup, which was found in Scythians.

They aren’t the same but they had to have had a good genetic affinity to each other because both are Iranic speaking steppe people who have common ancestors.

And Poles are the same as Russians or Latvians genetically with no southern admixture? I don’t know. I’m just asking.

[Jana]

and Polish don't have a southern shift, they are pretty north European genetically. except the Silesian Poles which are pulled southwest by Celtic influence.

Some southeastern Poles have Vlach shift and can approach more Balkan shifted western Ukrainians. It's is probably because they have Rusyn ancestry.

[vbnetkhio]

They aren’t the same but they had to have had a good genetic affinity to each other because both are Iranic speaking steppe people who have common ancestors.
i agree with this.


And Poles are the same as Russians or Latvians genetically with no southern admixture? I don’t know. I’m just asking.
they have Celtic and Germanic influence compared to Latvians. by Celtic i mean north Italian-like. real southern would be Caucasian and Levantine,they don't have much of that.

[vbnetkhio]

Some southeastern Poles have Vlach shift and can approach more Balkan shifted western Ukrainians. It's is probably because they have Rusyn ancestry.

do you have some eurogenes results of SE Poles who are like that?
i know only of this one, he doesn't show much Balkan shift, he is Celtic just like those Silesians.
3 79.7% Polish + 20.3% Austrian @ 2.07
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33913-Polish-Highlander-GEDmatch-results

[Cumansky]

do you have some eurogenes results of SE Poles who are like that?
i know only of this one, he doesn't show much Balkan shift, he is Celtic just like those Silesians.
3 79.7% Polish + 20.3% Austrian @ 2.07
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33913-Polish-Highlander-GEDmatch-results

Sure I have, what are you looking for exactly regarding Poles?

[Cumansky]

That’s awesome. My south Asian was Tajik on the new livingdna update so it’s most likely not Roma but who knows.

Can you add me to both of those lists?

Daos_scaled,0.126344,0.114755,0.056568,0.04522,0.0 30467,0.019243,0.00564,-0.002308,-0.00634,-0.014761,-0.002598,-0.010041,0.016353,0.015689,-0.018865,0.010607,0.021905,-0.004941,-0.00729,0.004377,0.004118,-0.003339,0.004807,-0.00012,-0.006826

Daos_scaled @ 2.6534

Pen= 0.001

50% SCYTHIANS-WEST
40.2% BALTO-SLAVS
5% LEVANT-EASTERN-SAHARA
1.6% FARMERS-SOUTH
1.6% BEAKERS-SOUTHWEST
1.6% SCYTHIANS-EAST

Daos_scaled @ 2.3087

PEN= 0

52.8% BALTO-SLAVS
26.2% SCYTHIANS-WEST
11.8% LEVANT-EASTERN-SAHARA
9.2% FARMERS-SOUTH

This calculator was designed for Pen= 0.001 that means your 50% Scythians West and 51.6% total is the record I have here. When I breakdown further using Pen= 0 you can see a chunk of Scythian got shifted into Balto Slavs but also significant chunks shifted into Farmers South aka indigenous population of Eastern Balkans Thracians later known as Vlachs (this is Sardinian component) and also Sumerian admixture of the Scythians gets shifted into Levant Eastern Sahara no surprise either. You can say that Sumerian admixture is something Tajik Pashtun like if I was betting man

[vbnetkhio]

Sure I have, what are you looking for exactly regarding Poles?

Southeast Polish results

[Jana]

do you have some eurogenes results of SE Poles who are like that?
i know only of this one, he doesn't show much Balkan shift, he is Celtic just like those Silesians.
3 79.7% Polish + 20.3% Austrian @ 2.07
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33913-Polish-Highlander-GEDmatch-results

Check anthrogenica. Some of them score massive Balkan on DNA Land. Cumnan troll posted lot of SE Polish/W.Ukrainian Polish kits with significant southern admixtures.
He can be your source.

[Cumansky]

Southeast Polish results

They are all Southeast Polish:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?300716-South-Polish-GEDmatch

South Polish Eurogenes K13 component range:

Baltic 34.98 - 47.82%
North Atlantic 24.29 - 35.20%
East Med 4.46 - 11.34%
West Asian 1.70 - 14.31%
West Med 7.61 - 14.31%
Red Sea 0 - 1.72%
Sub Saharan 0 - 3.08%
Northeast African 0 - 1.19%
South Asian 0 - 2.17%
Siberian 0 - 3.07%
Oceanian 0 - 1.16%
Amerindian 0 - 1.87%
East Asian 0 - 1.90%

[Lucas]

Southeast Poles have many times significant medieval German admixture, unexpected for those who don't know of this:

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C5%82uchoniemcy
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walddeutsche

They were polonized up to XVIII century so they passed as Poles and weren't expelled as all German colonists after 1945.

[Cumansky]

Southeast Poles have many times significant medieval German admixture, unexpected for those who don't know of this:

https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C5%82uchoniemcy
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walddeutsche

I only found 1 person that had any significant German ancestry and it came from Saxons of Hungary, the way you worded that statement is pure BS

[Lucas]

I only found 1 person that had any significant German ancestry and it came from Saxons of Hungary, the way you worded that statement is pure BS

I don't know what you find and I don't care about your West Ukrainians results.
I have many Gedmatch results of Poles from Subcarpathia voivodship (GEDCOM only for this region) with significant West Euro shift in calcs, higher than Małopolska Poles, Slovaks etc.

Read first this links which I posted, then discuss.

[Cumansky]

I don't know what you find and I don't care about your West Ukrainians results.
I have many Gedmatch results of Poles from Subcarpathia voivodship (GEDCOM only for this region) with significant West Euro shift in calcs, higher than Małopolska Poles, Slovaks etc.

Read first this links which I posted.

Are you dumb? What you just said to me? Your service LMgenetic is joke keep that grosze bez tego nie mozesz jesc ale nie na moje nazwisko

You get Russia North? You know Russia North and Poland have more Germanic DNA than Poles from Ukraine lol. Look at you look at Peterski both failure Polish result on different side of the border

[Lucas]

You know Russia North and Poland have more Germanic DNA than Poles from Ukraine lol. Look at you look at Peterski both failure Polish result on different side of the border

Why are you so angry?:)
Do you question Wikipedia links which I posted? I'm not their author, deal with it:) Discuss with their thesis, not with me.

BTW You can't read Polish, do you?

[Cumansky]

Why are you so angry?:)
Do you question Wikiepdia links which I posted? I'm not their author, deal with it:)

Because you are talking fake dirty trash and then try to be nice guy after, Lukasz your LMgenetic is no better than shit in the toilet you have 3% less Germanic DNA than me if I recall correct? But your not a Pole either if you plot with Russians bro. Why do you plot with Russians?

And Peterski that guy has 30% more Germanic DNA than both us, what kind of Pole is he? And don't forget Kiev principality was in Ukraine later Poland and I show affinity Fenno Scandian populations, you can see in your only good calculator K47, more than the rest of you peasant fucks

[Jana]

I don't know what you find and I don't care about your West Ukrainians results.
I have many Gedmatch results of Poles from Subcarpathia voivodship (GEDCOM only for this region) with significant West Euro shift in calcs, higher than Małopolska Poles, Slovaks etc.

Read first this links which I posted, then discuss.

Are these Vlach-Balkan shitfted Poles he posted actually Ukrainians (Rusyns)?

[Lucas]

Are these Vlach-Balkan shitfted Poles he posted actually Ukrainians (Rusyns)?

Honestly better ignore it:) Unless he'll post their GEdcom trees.

[Cumansky]

Are these Vlach-Balkan shitfted Poles he posted actually Ukrainians (Rusyns)?

No, they are from my house same origin as King Sobieski

There is no Rusyns, don't say that word is a western Jew propaganda to degrade my race and our history, I told you ugly bitch stay in your lane

[Sche]

Slavs are intermediate between Balts and Germanics but question is if it is due to admixture or just very ancient pattern dating back to Early Indo-European times (for example this is what we would expect if the Proto-Slavic homeland was located between the Proto-Baltic homeland and the Proto-Germanic homeland).
We conclude on the genetics of the Baltic countries based on the DNA of the Baltic peoples living on the outskirts of the Baltic. This is the same as drawing conclusions about Slavs based on the genetics of Bulgarians. That is, this is complete nonsense. This stupidity finds support among people who see the homeland of the Slavs in Prague culture (supposedly the Slavs occupy an intermediate position between Germans and the Baltic states). It must be understood that the Balts and the Slavs split somewhere in Belarus and in the west of Russia (Kiev culture), and from here their resettlement to Europe began. Most of the Baltic states became extinct and assimilated, the Slavs went far to the west and became Bulgarians, Poles and Serbs, Czechs, Croats. The first Slavs, most likely, initially looked like Mordovians and southern Russians.

[Cumansky]

Honestly better ignore it:) Unless he'll post their GEdcom trees.

Ok I'm leaving this thread for now:)

You better run you fat fuck, over Vistula you go

[Satem]

No, they are from my house same origin as King Sobieski

There is no Rusyns, don't say that word is a western Jew propaganda to degrade my race and our history, I told you ugly bitch stay in your lane

Nobody cares your nobility, your ancestors probably didn't praise so much their nobility as you lol. Do you even know a difference between ethnicity and a race?

[Lucas]

Nobody cares your nobility, your ancestors probably didn't praise so much their nobility as you lol. Do you even know a difference between ethnicity and a race?

He is reported to admins btw:)

[Cumansky]

Nobody cares your nobility, your ancestors probably didn't praise so much their nobility as you lol. Do you even know a difference between ethnicity and a race?

My ancestors is the reason you have a life, and the reason I am a nobility

Ethnicity doesn't matter to me is rooted in Nationalism, I'm not about Nationalism I'm about historical bloodlines and legacy not about modern Nationalism that's why I don't live in Poland that wannabe shit

[vbnetkhio]

We conclude on the genetics of the Baltic countries based on the DNA of the Baltic peoples living on the outskirts of the Baltic.
how are Lithuanians and Latvians outskirts? the extinct Baltic peoples were porbably the outskirts. Lithuanians and Latvians have almost 0% west asian, which means they have no significant Bell beaker, Scythian, Celtic, Germanic or Slavic influence. they also didn't pick up any significant Uralic/Finnic influence from the Estonians.

https://i.imgur.com/q5RzkPJ.gif

[Dick]

This thread is Balkan as fuck

[Cumansky]

This thread is Balkan as fuck

This time is I2 going in

[Dick]

This time is I2 going in

https://sibenskiportal.rtl.hr/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/kiki111.jpg

[Lucas]

https://sibenskiportal.rtl.hr/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/kiki111.jpg

Looks like Doctor Bosniensis on steroids:)

[Sche]

how are Lithuanians and Latvians outskirts? the extinct Baltic peoples were porbably the outskirts. Lithuanians and Latvians have almost 0% west asian, which means they have no significant Bell beaker, Scythian, Celtic, Germanic or Slavic influence. they also didn't pick up any significant Uralic/Finnic influence from the Estonians.
Pre-Baltic cultures - Milogradskaya (В), Yukhnovskaya (Г). These are southern Belarus, southern Russia and northern Ukraine. The territory of the modern Baltic at the time of the Baltic-Slavic unity is non-Indo-European tribes. I think that the ancient Balts were like modern Mordovians. Modern Balts are a mixture of the Baltic Slavs and non-Indo-European tribes of the Baltic Sea. Hence the excess WHG in Latvians and Lithuanians.
https://i.ibb.co/7WymW3d/75cf1bfdfae5.jpg

[vbnetkhio]

non-Indo-European tribes
maybe non-Baltic indo-European tribes? we have Corded ware samples from the Baltic coast, modern Balts show a pretty strong continuity with them.

[War Chef]

The Scythians of Eastern Europe are genetically very distant to the Scythians from Central Asia where they originated. The ones in EE are probably mostly Slavic genetically with minor original Scythian DNA. Considering how genetically close Ukrainians are to Poles (and the average Pole has insignificant Scythian ancestry), we can't blame Scythians for the southern shift of Slavs. It's most likely from mixing with Germanics and Celtics as another user said.

It's mostly from Cucutenti-Tryptillians mixing. A small % of Balkan Neolithics scattered into Slavic lands

[Sche]

maybe non-Baltic indo-European tribes? we have Corded ware samples from the Baltic coast, modern Balts show a pretty strong continuity with them.
I don’t know with what substrate the Balts mixed on the southern coast of the Baltic Sea. but it was definitely. Initially, the Balts arose in the south and they were not as they are now. However, many people forget that the Balts were originally different and think that the genes of the Lithuanians and Latvians were in the original Balts. This is a blunder.
However, the Slavs have changed too. The Balts mixed with the natives of the Baltic coast, and the Slavs mixed with immigrants from the south - Neolithic farmers. The farther to the west, the more noticeable is this mix with I2

[Dick]

It's mostly from Cucutenti-Tryptillians mixing. A small % of Balkan Neolithics scattered into Slavic lands

I think you're going too far back in history. Here is a kit of a Goth from Ukraine (Chernyakhiv Shyshaky) on GEDmatch, RN2067517. The sample is obviously mixed with more "southern" admixture than what one would expect since it is half "Ukrainian" but is also obviously Half Germanic as well.

K13 Oracle ref data revised 21 Nov 2013

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 32.93
2 Baltic 26.26
3 West_Med 15.10
4 East_Med 12.06
5 West_Asian 10.68
6 Siberian 1.17


Finished reading population data. 204 populations found.
13 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Hungarian @ 7.171901
2 Serbian @ 7.582404
3 Austrian @ 7.916253
4 East_German @ 10.537455
5 Romanian @ 11.046380
6 Moldavian @ 11.579685
7 Croatian @ 12.177805
8 West_German @ 12.189933
9 South_Dutch @ 14.146757
10 Bulgarian @ 14.471090
11 French @ 15.355276
12 North_German @ 17.448694
13 South_Polish @ 17.954311
14 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 18.660458
15 Ukrainian @ 19.972944
16 North_Italian @ 20.034046
17 Southeast_English @ 20.243816
18 Danish @ 20.364088
19 North_Dutch @ 20.683956
20 Portuguese @ 21.000622

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Bulgarian +50% North_German @ 2.949349


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 30.87
2 West_Med 13.49
3 Baltic 12.54
4 Atlantic 12.35
5 East_Med 10.70
6 Eastern_Euro 10.68
7 West_Asian 7.87


Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
15 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 West_German @ 12.079055
2 Hungarian @ 12.906998
3 Serbian @ 13.893739
4 East_German @ 14.975207
5 Moldavian @ 16.433725
6 French @ 16.480476
7 South_Dutch @ 16.592861
8 Romanian @ 16.821377
9 Austrian @ 17.371016
10 Croatian @ 18.464964
11 North_German @ 19.100044
12 Swedish @ 19.381577
13 North_Swedish @ 19.447109
14 Norwegian @ 19.627886
15 Bulgarian @ 20.119366
16 North_Dutch @ 20.327576
17 Southwest_English @ 20.338715
18 Spanish_Galicia @ 20.537924
19 Danish @ 20.599155
20 Ukrainian_Lviv @ 20.934811

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Greek_Thessaly +50% West_Norwegian @ 7.403653

[Jana]

I don’t know with what substrate the Balts mixed on the southern coast of the Baltic Sea. but it was definitely. Initially, the Balts arose in the south and they were not as they are now. However, many people forget that the Balts were originally different and think that the genes of the Lithuanians and Latvians were in the original Balts. This is a blunder.
However, the Slavs have changed too. The Balts mixed with the natives of the Baltic coast, and the Slavs mixed with immigrants from the south - Neolithic farmers. The farther to the west, the more noticeable is this mix with I2

No. I2 is WHG marker and native to northern Europe :laugh:
You speak lot of innacurate bullshit to make your kind purest Slavs which you are not.
Balts are pure, unlike you.

[Jana]

No, they are from my house same origin as King Sobieski

There is no Rusyns, don't say that word is a western Jew propaganda to degrade my race and our history, I told you ugly bitch stay in your lane

Rat faced subhuman, get out of my thread and cure your complexes elsewhere potato eating pighead.

[Jana]

https://sibenskiportal.rtl.hr/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/kiki111.jpg

Looks J2

[WeirdLookingFellow]

To what extent are Aromanian and Romanian mutually inteligible (if at all), I wonder?

Quite some differences but when words aren't different it just sounds like a mix of all three subdialects in Romanian, but here are some notes:

Please - păcălărește in Aromanian, rog in Romanian
To speak - zburășt/zburăsc in Aromanian, vorbesc / grăiesc in Romanian
to live - băneadză in Aromanian, trăiesc (or in the context of living somewhere) - locuiesc in Romanian
For - ti ea/el in Aromanian, pentru el/ea in Romanian
animal - prăvdză in Aromanian, animal/jivină/fiară/lighioană in Romanian
hat - capel in Aromanian, pălărie/căciulă in Romanian
enough time - duri kiro in Aromanian, destul/suficient timp/vreme in Romanian
pair - preacli Ar, pereche Ro
shoes - prăputsă Ar, pantofi/încălțără/papuci Ro
write - anyrăpseashti Ar , scrie Ro
cat - cătushă ar, pisică/mâță Ro
fruit - yimishe / fruct
eat - macu / mănânc
dad - afen / tată/tătâne

[vbnetkhio]

I don’t know with what substrate the Balts mixed on the southern coast of the Baltic Sea. but it was definitely. Initially, the Balts arose in the south and they were not as they are now. However, many people forget that the Balts were originally different and think that the genes of the Lithuanians and Latvians were in the original Balts. This is a blunder.
However, the Slavs have changed too. The Balts mixed with the natives of the Baltic coast, and the Slavs mixed with immigrants from the south - Neolithic farmers. The farther to the west, the more noticeable is this mix with I2

there was no i2a1 farmers south of the Balto-Slavs (in the steppe). there were g2 Cucuteni-Trypilia farmers, then r1a Sredny stog, then and r1b-z2103 and i2a2 in Yamnaya, which is not the same as i2a1 which is found among Slavs.

[vbnetkhio]

I don’t know with what substrate the Balts mixed on the southern coast of the Baltic Sea. but it was definitely. Initially, the Balts arose in the south and they were not as they are now. However, many people forget that the Balts were originally different and think that the genes of the Lithuanians and Latvians were in the original Balts. This is a blunder.
However, the Slavs have changed too. The Balts mixed with the natives of the Baltic coast, and the Slavs mixed with immigrants from the south - Neolithic farmers. The farther to the west, the more noticeable is this mix with I2

i was thinking more about this. Hungarian and German Bronze age seem to be the best fits which pulled Balts away from Baltic Corded Ware. but 4.7 is a big distance, there is still a missing piece.

[1] "nMONTE 3"
[1] "distance%=4.7376"

Baltic_LVA_BA

Corded_Ware_Baltic,46.4
HUN_Mako_EBA,20.8
DEU_Welzin_BA,15.4
Baltic_EST_Comb_Ceramic_low_res,3.8
RUS_Chalmny-Varre,3.8
UKR_Meso,3.2
BGR_Varna_En3,2
ROU_Meso,1.2
UKR_N,1.2
NOR_N_HG,0.8
Baltic_LTU_Narva,0.6
Anatolia_Kumtepe_N_low_res,0.2
POL_EBA,0.2
UKR_Dereivka_I_En1,0.2
UKR_Dereivka_I_En2,0.2

[Token]

i was thinking more about this. Hungarian and German Bronze age seem to be the best fits which pulled Balts away from Baltic Corded Ware. but 4.7 is a big distance, there is still a missing piece.

[1] "nMONTE 3"
[1] "distance%=4.7376"

Baltic_LVA_BA

Corded_Ware_Baltic,46.4
HUN_Mako_EBA,20.8
DEU_Welzin_BA,15.4
Baltic_EST_Comb_Ceramic_low_res,3.8
RUS_Chalmny-Varre,3.8
UKR_Meso,3.2
BGR_Varna_En3,2
ROU_Meso,1.2
UKR_N,1.2
NOR_N_HG,0.8
Baltic_LTU_Narva,0.6
Anatolia_Kumtepe_N_low_res,0.2
POL_EBA,0.2
UKR_Dereivka_I_En1,0.2
UKR_Dereivka_I_En2,0.2

What is missing is the Balto-Slavic drift that occured between the Late Neolithic and Bronze Age. This is why you won't get tight fits in any model for Balto-Slavs, both modern and ancient, using pre Bronze Age samples or Bronze Age samples from outside of Northeast Europe.

[vbnetkhio]

What is missing is the Balto-Slavic drift that occured between the Late Neolithic and Bronze Age. This is why you won't get tight fits in any model for Balto-Slavs, both modern and ancient, using pre Bronze Age samples or Bronze Age samples from outside of Northeast Europe.

but the HUN_Mako_EBA and DEU_Welzin_BA admixture is real? or g25 just isn't meant for modelling genetically drifted populations

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Those that stayed in the northeast turned into proto-Balts, and those proto-Balts didn't move anywhere;

Ancestors of Lithuanians and Latvians actually lived in Russia, near Dvina (if i can remember good). Well, Prussians are another mystery.

[War Chef]

Ancestors of Lithuanians and Latvians actually lived in Russia, near Dvina (if i can remember good). Well, Prussians are another mystery.

Prussians were Balts with Germanic customs/influence they got from Weilbark culture. That's why Tuetonic Knights had such an easy time assimilating them, they were similar.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

What is missing is the Balto-Slavic drift that occured between the Late Neolithic and Bronze Age. This is why you won't get tight fits in any model for Balto-Slavs, both modern and ancient, using pre Bronze Age samples or Bronze Age samples from outside of Northeast Europe.

What? Balto-Slavic split 3000 BC ? I don't take it serious.

[vbnetkhio]

What? Balto-Slavic split 3000 BC ? I don't take it serious.

no, he means proto-Balto-Slavs drifted from other north Europeans. later than that, 2000-1000 bc.

[War Chef]

What is missing is the Balto-Slavic drift that occured between the Late Neolithic and Bronze Age. This is why you won't get tight fits in any model for Balto-Slavs, both modern and ancient, using pre Bronze Age samples or Bronze Age samples from outside of Northeast Europe.


no, he means proto-Balto-Slavs drifted from other north Europeans. later than that, 2000-1000 bc.

You think during Corded ware culture BaltoSlavs and Germanics were one big happy family?

[Token]

You think during Corded ware culture BaltoSlavs and Germanics were one big happy family?

Probably.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

A lot of linguists (including Frederik Kortlandt) believes that there was Balto-Slavic-Indo-Iranian period, not Germanics with them.

[Dick]

A lot of linguists (including Frederik Kortlandt) believes that there was Balto-Slavic-Indo-Iranian period, not Germanics with them.

Satem period

[vbnetkhio]

You think during Corded ware culture BaltoSlavs and Germanics were one big happy family?

kind of. one part of what would become Germanics. Germanics also have a strong Bell Beaker admixture. or perhaps even dominantly Bell beaker


A lot of linguists (including Frederik Kortlandt) believes that there was Balto-Slavic-Indo-Iranian period, not Germanics with them.

probably because the Bell Beaker influence pulled Germanics away from Balto-Slavs

[War Chef]

What is missing is the Balto-Slavic drift that occured between the Late Neolithic and Bronze Age. This is why you won't get tight fits in any model for Balto-Slavs, both modern and ancient, using pre Bronze Age samples or Bronze Age samples from outside of Northeast Europe.


kind of. one part of what would become Germanics. Germanics also have a strong Bell Beaker admixture. or perhaps even dominantly Bell beaker



probably because the Bell Beaker influence pulled Germanics away from Balto-Slavs

I thought Germanics have LBK (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_Pottery_culture) admixture that the Slavs don't have much of? Yes, also bell-beaker.

By the way, Bell beakers were Iberian-looking people mostly? Just taller etc.

[Token]

I thought Germanics have LBK (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_Pottery_culture) admixture that the Slavs don't have much of? Yes, also bell-beaker.

By the way, Bell beakers were Iberian-looking people mostly? Just taller etc.

Bell Beakers were most similar to Norwegians, lol.

[Benyzero]

This is what I imagined when I heard the term bell beaker first time

https://i.imgur.com/cRpSK6d.jpg

[vbnetkhio]

I thought Germanics have LBK


looking at that map, i would say proto-Germanics in Scandinavia were Ertebølle+Corded Ware(Battle axe)+Bell Beaker+ a little inevitable LBK.