G25 Apricity West Eurasian PCA with new population averages

[J. Ketch]

Users interspersed with latest modern population averages
https://i.postimg.cc/Vshm9p7T/tafullnov13.png
https://i.postimg.cc/3xRqLxdF/tafullnov13euro.png

European PCA updated without West Asian populations
https://i.postimg.cc/qMSyGXqk/europe2.png

[Thracian]

Could you also add me? Thanks in advance.

Thracian_scaled,0.112685,0.114755,0.00264,-0.006137,0.00677,0,0.004465,0,-0.001841,0.002734,0.001299,-0.001948,-0.00223,0.002477,-0.006515,0.009016,0.013038,0.00228,0.006034,0.0057 53,-0.004492,0.00507,-0.000739,0.002048,-0.001317

[WeirdLookingFellow]

Quite nice, great job.

[J. Ketch]

Could you also add me? Thanks in advance.

Thracian_scaled,0.112685,0.114755,0.00264,-0.006137,0.00677,0,0.004465,0,-0.001841,0.002734,0.001299,-0.001948,-0.00223,0.002477,-0.006515,0.009016,0.013038,0.00228,0.006034,0.0057 53,-0.004492,0.00507,-0.000739,0.002048,-0.001317
https://i.postimg.cc/brsJHFZR/thracian3.png

[andre]

Andrei_scaled,0.122929,0.137096,0.039598,0.005168, 0.028313,-0.000558,0.008695,0.004846,-0.004295,0.00656,-0.001137,-0.002398,0.00669,0.018992,-0.018594,-0.011933,-0.011474,0.010008,0.00817,-0.012881,-0.00574,-0.000124,0.002958,-0.002048,-0.001916
Thank you guys!

[J. Ketch]

Andrei_scaled,0.122929,0.137096,0.039598,0.005168, 0.028313,-0.000558,0.008695,0.004846,-0.004295,0.00656,-0.001137,-0.002398,0.00669,0.018992,-0.018594,-0.011933,-0.011474,0.010008,0.00817,-0.012881,-0.00574,-0.000124,0.002958,-0.002048,-0.001916
Thank you guys!
https://i.postimg.cc/vZTwQQXq/andre.png

[andre]

https://i.postimg.cc/vZTwQQXq/andre.png
Could i be used as “pure” romanian reference :)

[Enr1989]

This is me please

Enr1989_scaled,0.122929,0.142174,0.039975,-0.004845,0.030159,0.005578,0.007755,0.003,0.004909 ,0.017677,0.000487,0.003447,-0.006987,-0.00523,-0.000136,0.004773,0.003781,0.0019,-0.00264,-0.002501,0.009858,0.004328,-0.001109,0.009037,-0.005748

[J. Ketch]

Could i be used as “pure” romanian reference :)
Yep.

The full plot
https://i.postimg.cc/HxPjWpyT/fullplot.png

[J. Ketch]

This is me please

Enr1989_scaled,0.122929,0.142174,0.039975,-0.004845,0.030159,0.005578,0.007755,0.003,0.004909 ,0.017677,0.000487,0.003447,-0.006987,-0.00523,-0.000136,0.004773,0.003781,0.0019,-0.00264,-0.002501,0.009858,0.004328,-0.001109,0.009037,-0.005748
https://i.postimg.cc/g2Q6qQb2/enr.png

[Samnium]

Naples south of all other southern italian references. WTF.

[Enr1989]

https://i.postimg.cc/g2Q6qQb2/enr.png

Nice

[PT Tagus]

could you add me, please?


PT_Tagus_scaled,0.086506,0.149283,0.034695,-0.009367,0.03693,-0.000279,-0.005405,0.000462,0.020657,0.029158,-0.004222,0.007194,-0.005203,-0.007569,0.009636,-0.003713,-0.010822,-0.002154,-0.004902,-0.00075,0.006863,0.004328,-0.004437,-0.00012,-0.006227

thank you in advance.

[Jana]

Thank you for great work :thumb001:

I am milimeter next to Croatian dot. Call me benchmark Croatian :thumb001:

[Enr1989]

Naples south of all other southern italian references. WTF.

Calabria plots more South

[Samnium]

Calabria plots more South

Calabrian average is from Reggio Calabria/Vibo Valentia no surprise there

There are outliers in these provinces... you can't even imagine

[J. Ketch]

could you add me, please?



thank you in advance.
https://i.postimg.cc/G2kkhymR/pttagus.png

[Coastal Elite]

Interesting that the Balkan countries are plotted fairly close to Northern European countries, just a little to the left.

[nittionia]

Cool :D I am closest to French on this plot?

[J. Ketch]

Interesting that the Balkan countries are plotted fairly close to Northern European countries, just a little to the left.
I think the bigger the PCA the more it emphasises the basic ancestral components of a population rather than recent genetic drift, and in that respect NW Europe is quite similar to Central Europe and somewhat to the Northern Balkans.


Cool :D I am closest to French on this plot?
Closest to French Bretons, Cornish, Welsh...typical French are more Southern as you can see.

[Samnium]

I think the bigger the PCA the more it emphasises the basic ancestral components of a population rather than recent genetic drift, and in that respect NW Europe is quite similar to Central Europe and even parts of the Northern Balkans.


Closest to French Bretons, Cornish, Welsh...typical French are more Southern as you can see.Brittons are closer to Icelandic or Orcadian than any other french lol...

Envoyé de mon ALE-L21 en utilisant Tapatalk

[Vid Flumina]

VFlumina_scaled,0.118376,0.141159,0.033564,0.00387 6,0.039084,0.003904,0.00423,0.003,0.000818,0.01858 8,-0.003573,0.007044,-0.016055,-0.011147,-0.005836,0.020551,0.019297,0.003801,0.01169,-0.000625,0.005615,0,-0.001972,0.008917,-0.001916

much obliged

[J. Ketch]

VFlumina_scaled,0.118376,0.141159,0.033564,0.00387 6,0.039084,0.003904,0.00423,0.003,0.000818,0.01858 8,-0.003573,0.007044,-0.016055,-0.011147,-0.005836,0.020551,0.019297,0.003801,0.01169,-0.000625,0.005615,0,-0.001972,0.008917,-0.001916

much obliged
https://i.postimg.cc/9F3Brfc8/vf.png

[PT Tagus]

https://i.postimg.cc/G2kkhymR/pttagus.png

it ploted near French_Corsica.

thank you bro :thumbs:

[dududud]

Me:
ThomasL_scaled,0.126344,0.14319,0.044877,-0.001938,0.048624,0.000279,0.00329,0.006231,0.0081 81,0.029522,-0.003573,0.006594,-0.020515,-0.005092,0.004207,-0.014585,-0.010561,0.002407,0.003897,-0.007629,0.000749,-0.001855,-0.002465,0.00482,0.000958

Father:
Pierre_Bord_scaled,0.12862,0.137096,0.050157,0.032 3,0.045855,0.013108,-0.00188,0.005307,0.007158,0.018406,-0.003248,0.007343,-0.016204,-0.012661,0.021851,-0.006364,-0.024643,0.005194,0.00264,-0.005628,0.003868,0.002597,0.000863,0.008796,0.004 67



Mother:
JeanneF_scaled,0.125205,0.15436,0.035826,-0.020995,0.045547,-0.01255,0.00141,0.003461,0.01268,0.039545,-0.005684,0.01124,-0.017245,-0.010184,-0.00855,-0.011005,-0.012256,-0.001647,0.00817,-0.020885,-0.006738,0.002226,-0.001479,-0.007953,0.004431

[Ljubic]

Can you add us too?

Ljubic_dad_scaled,0.121791,0.133034,0.0445,0.02390 2,0.032929,0.007251,0.00611,0.009923,0.002659,-0.002734,-0.00406,-0.009442,0.006987,0.017203,-0.014929,0.008618,0.021905,-0.001647,0.002514,0.005253,-0.010107,-0.000495,0.003697,0.003374,-0.000239

Ljubic_scaled,0.126344,0.142174,0.04978,0.020349,0 .030159,0.005857,0.005405,0.005538,0.000614,-0.00492,-0.002111,-0.005545,0.007284,0.01445,-0.019001,0,0.004694,0.000253,0.00817,-0.001751,-0.009234,0.000495,0.002711,0.006386,0.001796

[MagnusDark]

Users interspersed with latest modern population averages
https://i.postimg.cc/Vshm9p7T/tafullnov13.png
https://i.postimg.cc/3xRqLxdF/tafullnov13euro.png

Could you add me if its no trouble? Thanks in advance.

MagnusDark_scaled,0.127482,0.150298,0.020365,-0.02584,0.028621,-0.007251,0.00611,0.002769,-0.002863,0.022233,0.001624,0.007343,-0.011596,0.003165,-0.02158,0.006895,0.030379,-0.00266,0.006159,-0.007379,-0.010606,0.000124,0.000986,0.000964,-0.002036

[17571imre]

can you also add me thankyou:)

MH_scaled,0.126344,0.135065,0.045632,0.025194,0.03 4468,0.008088,0.00564,0.009461,0.007772,0.004191,-0.002111,0.001798,0.000595,0.005643,-0.007193,0.005436,0.000652,-0.000887,0.003897,-0.007504,-0.003244,-0.004946,0.004067,0.000361,0.000239

[J. Ketch]

Me:
ThomasL_scaled,0.126344,0.14319,0.044877,-0.001938,0.048624,0.000279,0.00329,0.006231,0.0081 81,0.029522,-0.003573,0.006594,-0.020515,-0.005092,0.004207,-0.014585,-0.010561,0.002407,0.003897,-0.007629,0.000749,-0.001855,-0.002465,0.00482,0.000958

Father:
Pierre_Bord_scaled,0.12862,0.137096,0.050157,0.032 3,0.045855,0.013108,-0.00188,0.005307,0.007158,0.018406,-0.003248,0.007343,-0.016204,-0.012661,0.021851,-0.006364,-0.024643,0.005194,0.00264,-0.005628,0.003868,0.002597,0.000863,0.008796,0.004 67



Mother:
JeanneF_scaled,0.125205,0.15436,0.035826,-0.020995,0.045547,-0.01255,0.00141,0.003461,0.01268,0.039545,-0.005684,0.01124,-0.017245,-0.010184,-0.00855,-0.011005,-0.012256,-0.001647,0.00817,-0.020885,-0.006738,0.002226,-0.001479,-0.007953,0.004431
https://i.postimg.cc/mgPS29Gz/dud.png


Can you add us too?

Ljubic_dad_scaled,0.121791,0.133034,0.0445,0.02390 2,0.032929,0.007251,0.00611,0.009923,0.002659,-0.002734,-0.00406,-0.009442,0.006987,0.017203,-0.014929,0.008618,0.021905,-0.001647,0.002514,0.005253,-0.010107,-0.000495,0.003697,0.003374,-0.000239

Ljubic_scaled,0.126344,0.142174,0.04978,0.020349,0 .030159,0.005857,0.005405,0.005538,0.000614,-0.00492,-0.002111,-0.005545,0.007284,0.01445,-0.019001,0,0.004694,0.000253,0.00817,-0.001751,-0.009234,0.000495,0.002711,0.006386,0.001796


Could you add me if its no trouble? Thanks in advance.

MagnusDark_scaled,0.127482,0.150298,0.020365,-0.02584,0.028621,-0.007251,0.00611,0.002769,-0.002863,0.022233,0.001624,0.007343,-0.011596,0.003165,-0.02158,0.006895,0.030379,-0.00266,0.006159,-0.007379,-0.010606,0.000124,0.000986,0.000964,-0.002036


can you also add me thankyou:)

MH_scaled,0.126344,0.135065,0.045632,0.025194,0.03 4468,0.008088,0.00564,0.009461,0.007772,0.004191,-0.002111,0.001798,0.000595,0.005643,-0.007193,0.005436,0.000652,-0.000887,0.003897,-0.007504,-0.003244,-0.004946,0.004067,0.000361,0.000239
https://i.postimg.cc/Fzq7P7C8/many.png

[FinalFlash]

Interesting PCA chart. Some populations don't seem to correlate with their respective oracles though in terms of where they plot.

[J. Ketch]

Interesting PCA chart. Some populations don't seem to correlate with their respective oracles though in terms of where they plot.
This is how it looks when I remove all West Asian populations
https://i.postimg.cc/ryBjgkK0/euro.png
People will be more used to this.

[J. Ketch]

Core Europe in the Euro PCA

https://i.postimg.cc/qMSyGXqk/europe2.png

Is this preferable?

[Coastal Elite]

Those at the core of the core deserve citizenship to the European country of their choice.

[MagnusDark]

https://i.postimg.cc/mgPS29Gz/dud.png






https://i.postimg.cc/Fzq7P7C8/many.png

Thank you! kind of weird how I am between Tuscan/Swiss Italian/Italian_Piedmont. I figured I would be a little closer to Albanian average lol.

[Adamm]

Could you also add me? Big thanks!

Adammm_scaled,-0.020488,0.139128,-0.004903,-0.075259,0.026774,-0.039045,-0.024441,0.002308,0.065039,0.023873,0.001137,-0.01139,0.025124,-0.01445,0.015201,-0.010607,0.002347,-0.018623,-0.039218,0.005002,-0.007362,-0.034375,0.021938,-0.01446,0.011496

[J. Ketch]

Thank you! kind of weird how I am between Tuscan/Swiss Italian/Italian_Piedmont. I figured I would be a little closer to Albanian average lol.
You are, in the Euro PCA above. I suppose the West Eurasian PCA is less accurate individually, a bit like those useless Gedmatch oracles that try to find your nearest population by your shares of WHG, Steppe, EEF etc.

[MagnusDark]

You are, in the Euro PCA above. I suppose the West Eurasian PCA is less accurate individually, a bit like those useless Gedmatch oracles that try to find your nearest population by your shares of WHG, Steppe, EEF etc.

True. Just noticed the Euro PCA above. Thank you.

[FinalFlash]

You are, in the Euro PCA above. I suppose the West Eurasian PCA is less accurate individually, a bit like those useless Gedmatch oracles that try to find your nearest population by your shares of WHG, Steppe, EEF etc.

It does seem more logical without West Asia in the chart. Btw, how does this chart determine genetic closeness if not using oracles and shares of various other components?

[Lucas]

Brittons are closer to Icelandic or Orcadian than any other french lol...

Envoyé de mon ALE-L21 en utilisant Tapatalk

And more northern than Cornwall:)

[J. Ketch]

Could you also add me? Big thanks!

Adammm_scaled,-0.020488,0.139128,-0.004903,-0.075259,0.026774,-0.039045,-0.024441,0.002308,0.065039,0.023873,0.001137,-0.01139,0.025124,-0.01445,0.015201,-0.010607,0.002347,-0.018623,-0.039218,0.005002,-0.007362,-0.034375,0.021938,-0.01446,0.011496
https://i.postimg.cc/gjwpvBYp/adammm.png

[Hulu]

Can you add this?


Hulu_scaled,0.112685,0.145221,0.014708,-0.030039,0.02185,-0.02259,0.00188,-
0.001385,0.005931,0.018588,0.008607,0.003147,-0.006541,0.002477,-
0.018458,0.00053,0.022817,0.003927,0.008422,-0.004877,-
0.013975,0.002226,0.002588,-0.006868,0.0001

[J. Ketch]

It does seem more logical without West Asia in the chart. Btw, how does this chart determine genetic closeness if not using oracles and shares of various other components?
It doesn't determine genetic closeness, it's a 2d visual representation of 25 different components, as such it's imperfect and can look different depending on the data added.

[Enr1989]

This is how it looks when I remove all West Asian populations
https://i.postimg.cc/ryBjgkK0/euro.png
People will be more used to this.

Aosta valley moved all the way from NE to NW to NE Italian how did it happen?

[J. Ketch]

And more northern than Cornwall:)
Yes, I was surprised by how northern the Bretons in G25 are. Not sure how representative it is.

[Samnium]

Yes, I was surprised by how northern the Bretons in G25 are. Not sure how representative it is.

It's maybe an outlier because sincerely historically Britanny wasn't an isolate at all.

Actually I know brittons on another forum they are Northern shifted like that but maybe not more northern than Cornwall.

[FinalFlash]

It doesn't determine genetic closeness, it's a 2d visual representation of 25 different components, as such it's imperfect and can look different depending on the data added.

If oracles are flawed, then what is the best method to determine genetic closeness?

[Samnium]

You see well the East-Med continuum on this PCA by the way.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/490551642446495772/644249716346978327/unknown.png

[Lucas]

Yes, I was surprised by how northern the Bretons in G25 are. Not sure how representative it is.

They are probably the same academic which I used in my oracle. In K36 they are also very "northern". So it is real. From some isolated villages maybe.

[Grace O'Malley]

Do you have Ireland on this Creoda? Maybe I just can't see it because of how busy Northwest Euro looks. Thanks for doing this.

[Samnium]

You see well also the difference between West and East Euro, and I would say that the differences between the northern fringes or the northern populations of these are rather important (logically, it's have been shown by several PCA). See the distance that separate Swedish and Finnish.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/490551642446495772/644251349525200950/unknown.png

[Vid Flumina]

Euro PCA offers higher intra European separation while West Eurasian PCA seems to work better for people with significant extra European admixture.

What does G25 global PCA look like, is it still readable?

[Lemgrant]

If oracles are flawed, then what is the best method to determine genetic closeness?

IBD sharing of course. Look where Ayetooey plots. He is Serbian British with 6.25% French. Yet he plots as Austrian. Obviously he is not Austrian. Mixedmode oracle or 4-way oracle from gedmatch can show him as Macedonian + English, Bosnian + English, Serbian + Dutch etc. His 6.25% French is pretty much undetectable in such oracles. Which of the combinations is close to the truth you can find out only by looking at his matches (IBD sharing). But for this, a lot people needs to be tested and they must be on the same site.

[Lucas]

IBD sharing of course. Look where Ayetooey plots. He is Serbian British with 6.25% French. Yet he plots as Austrian. Obviously he is not Austrian. Mixedmode oracle or 4-way oracle from gedmatch can show him as Macedonian + English, Bosnian + English, Serbian + Dutch etc. Which of the combinations is close to the truth you can find out only by looking at his matches (IBD sharing). But for this, a lot people needs to be tested and they must be on the same site.

IBD hmmm. On Gedmatch or FTDNA I have many high matches with people with British / German surnames because they are overrepresented in database. Until more people will test in Central / Eastern Europe IBD matches aren't reliable for me.

But I must admit when I bought test in 2017 I didn't have practically Polish surnames among matches. Now is much better situation.

[FinalFlash]

IBD sharing of course. Look where Ayetooey plots. He is Serbian British with 6.25% French. Yet he plots as Austrian. Obviously he is not Austrian. Mixedmode oracle or 4-way oracle from gedmatch can show him as Macedonian + English, Bosnian + English, Serbian + Dutch etc. His 6.25% French is pretty much undetectable in such oracles. Which of the combinations is close to the truth you can find out only by looking at his matches (IBD sharing). But for this, a lot people needs to be tested and they must be on the same site.

How does IBD sharing work? On Gedmatch for example, your oracles tell you your closest populations using admixture of course.

[J. Ketch]

Can you add this?


Hulu_scaled,0.112685,0.145221,0.014708,-0.030039,0.02185,-0.02259,0.00188,-
0.001385,0.005931,0.018588,0.008607,0.003147,-0.006541,0.002477,-
0.018458,0.00053,0.022817,0.003927,0.008422,-0.004877,-
0.013975,0.002226,0.002588,-0.006868,0.0001
https://i.postimg.cc/vTJL875Q/hulu.png
https://i.postimg.cc/hvLbjzsT/hulu2.png


Do you have Ireland on this Creoda? Maybe I just can't see it because of how busy Northwest Euro looks. Thanks for doing this.
West Eurasian PCA
https://i.postimg.cc/tJpnBrdn/nweuro.png
Euro PCA
https://i.postimg.cc/G2QmmbY9/nweuro2.png

[Lucas]

IBD hmmm. On Gedmatch or FTDNA I have many high matches with people with British / German surnames because they are overrepresented in database. Until more people will test in Central / Eastern Europe IBD matches aren't reliable for me.

But I must admit when I bought test in 2017 I didn't have practically Polish surnames among matches. Now is much better situation.

For example I have match (62 cM) in FTDNA with person with such ancestral names: Higgins (Galloway) Kelly (Galloway) McHugh (Galloway) ad it is Paternal match (my father also has it). But my father is such un-Celtic autosomally as possible:)

[Lemgrant]

How does IBD sharing work? On Gedmatch for example, your oracles tell you your closest populations using admixture of course.

https://isogg.org/wiki/Identical_by_descent

various companies use different tools for this. FastIBD, FISHR, refined IBD, HaploScore, Germline...

[FinalFlash]

https://isogg.org/wiki/Identical_by_descent

various companies use different tools for this. FastIBD, FISHR, refined IBD, HaploScore, Germline...

I believe Gedmatch has these features where you adjust the cM distances. So the one-to-many option is a more effective tool than the oracles?

[Lemgrant]

I believe Gedmatch has these features where you adjust the cM distances. So the one-to-many option is a more effective tool than the oracles?

I don't know what they use on Gedmatch, certainly it is a different approach from MyHeritage, because I match the same person with very different number of centimorgans (cM). (Gedmatch vs. Myheritage)

[Lemgrant]

For example I have match (62 cM) in FTDNA with person with such ancestral names: Higgins (Galloway) Kelly (Galloway) McHugh (Galloway) ad it is Paternal match (my father also has it). But my father is such un-Celtic autosomally as possible:)

That person can fill in whatever names he want or know. You have common ancestor. The number of centimorgans varies on different sites. I have one Moldovan match with 60cM on myheritage, yet I match the same person with only 20 cM on Gedmatch.

[J. Ketch]

Euro PCA offers higher intra European separation while West Eurasian PCA seems to work better for people with significant extra European admixture.

What does G25 global PCA look like, is it still readable?
Well, you can tell who's African and who's not. Aside from that it has little use.

[Adamm]

https://i.postimg.cc/gjwpvBYp/adammm.png

:thumb001:Thanks dude!

[Lucas]

That person can fill in whatever names he want or know. You have common ancestor. The number of centimorgans varies on different sites. I have one Moldovan match with 60cM on myheritage, yet I match the same person with only 20 cM on Gedmatch.

I posted it to show that relying mainly on IBD matches could be misleading, at least in my case. I know this is solid match but what common ancestor we can have. I have no idea. Scots migrating to XVI-XVII century Poland?
Viking with Slavic blood? Unknown Pole emigrant ( but no later than from XIX century)?

[WeirdLookingFellow]

You see well the East-Med continuum on this PCA by the way.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/490551642446495772/644249716346978327/unknown.png

Ph2ter ( i think) made a t-sne plot based on k15 where thr continuum is even more visible. Interesting how Europeans create a triangle of sout-west-east ancestry

[Samnium]

Ph2ter ( i think) made a t-sne plot based on k15 where thr continuum is even more visible. Interesting how Europeans create a triangle of sout-west-east ancestryT-sne is better to distinguish the differents "clusters". PCA is good only for distances not relatedness..

Envoyé de mon ALE-L21 en utilisant Tapatalk

[Vid Flumina]

What does G25 global PCA look like, is it still readable?

European section (for anyone wondering)

https://i.imgur.com/R9q57VI.png

[Jana]

You see well the East-Med continuum on this PCA by the way.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/490551642446495772/644249716346978327/unknown.png

You menaged to include Serbs and Romanians with Jews and Greek Islanders. Big fail.
''East Med continuum'' ends in Albania and Greece max, and even they are not to be grouped with real East Med populations.

There is a visible gap between Albanian/Greek and Bulgarian/Macedonian/Romanian etc users in the PCA, bigger than between Tuscany and North Italian regions.

[Samnium]

You menaged to include Serbs and Romanians with Jews and Greek Islanders. Big fail.
''East Med continuum'' ends in Albania and Greece max, and even they are not to be grouped with real East Med populations.

There is a visible gap between Albanian/Greek and Bulgarian/Macedonian/Romanian etc users in the PCA, bigger than between Tuscany and North Italian regions.

It's called a CONTINUUM, I didn't wanted to include Serbians by the way

East Med continuum ends up in Tuscany, so there are certainly parts of Bulgaria/Romania that are part of it. Remember, it's only a rapid draw it wasn't my intent to be very precise.

+ The East Med continuum refers to a shared East Med ancestry, that can be seen as Aegean for Italians and Greeks. It's not that they are GROUPED with Levantines or Cypriots, it's just that these populations are definitely partially related by a common East med component.

The gap between Tuscany and many N.Italian regions is very noticeable. Piedmont, Lombardia, Veneto, Alto Adige, all are a lot more northern than Tuscany and there is a gap between them and Tuscany.

I wouldn't say that this gap is bigger than between Albanians for example and Macedonians. It's not true at all. I mean you have N.Italians very close to either French or Spanish regions whereas Tuscany reference on gedmatch has at 15/16 of distance Ashkenazim.

[Coastal Elite]

You menaged to include Serbs and Romanians with Jews and Greek Islanders. Big fail.
''East Med continuum'' ends in Albania and Greece max, and even they are not to be grouped with real East Med populations.

There is a visible gap between Albanian/Greek and Bulgarian/Macedonian/Romanian etc users in the PCA, bigger than between Tuscany and North Italian regions.

Yeah, Sephardic Jews and Serbians or Romanians are pretty far apart genetically within the context of Europe. Not sure they belong in the same continuum.

[Coastal Elite]

It's called a CONTINUUM, I didn't wanted to include Serbians by the way



So why is Romania included but not Serbia? Seems like an arbitrary cutoff point.

[Jana]

It's enough to see gap between Vojnik (slavic-speaking Macedonian), Impaler (south Romanian with Greek ancestry) vs Freeroostah (northern Greek)and MagnusDark (Albanian).
Bigger than between Tuscany and Northern Italy.

[Samnium]

It's enough to see gap between Vojnik (slavic-speaking Macedonian) and Freeroostah (northern Greek) and MagnusDark (Albanian).
Bigger than Tuscany and Northern Italy.

Well you haven't seen results from some N.Italians then. That show French average very near.

[Jana]

Yeah, Sephardic Jews and Serbians or Romanians are pretty far apart genetically within the context of Europe. Not sure they belong in the same continuum.

Lol, they surely don't. :laugh:

[Samnium]

So why is Romania included but not Serbia? Seems like an arbitrary cutoff point.I can cut off part of the cluster, greeks, italians and albanians aren't clearly the only people that make the East Med continuum.

Actually my picture wasn't to be taken as an exact map it was only a rapid draw to show approximately the East med continuum you are taking it too seriously lol.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191113/73f02c0fb8999aa13f95333546f8783b.jpg

[Ylla]

https://i.postimg.cc/vTJL875Q/hulu.png
https://i.postimg.cc/hvLbjzsT/hulu2.png


West Eurasian PCA
https://i.postimg.cc/tJpnBrdn/nweuro.png
Euro PCA
https://i.postimg.cc/G2QmmbY9/nweuro2.png

Incredible that Hulu is plotting comfortably with Italians I haven't seen an Albanian plotting like that before

Edit: oh magnusdark too, very close to the Tuscan average

[Jana]

''East Med'' continuum
https://i.imgur.com/BMxqNaj.png

Just ignorance from western European who knows even fine scale difference between populations of his personal interest but has no problem to lump Sephardics and Serbs toghder (tip of the iceberg, those are two extremes)

[Samnium]

''East Med'' continuum
https://i.imgur.com/BMxqNaj.png

Just ignorance from western European who knows even fine scale difference between populations of his personal interest but has no problem to lump Sephardics and Serbs toghder (tip of the iceberg, those are two extremes)The East Med continuum is proven by dozens of genetic studies my dear.

N.Italy isn't considered as an East Med population as Iberians aren't SE Euros.

What we can call a significant Levantine component (East Med if you want) begin in FIRENZE not in N.Italy.

If you see the distances between like ViaFluminia and the Tuscany sample that he's northern shifted, it's much more important than the distance between an albanian and a macedonian.

The Tuscan reference on k13 corresponds to what a northern Tuscan is, and he's distant to the N.Italian reference, many many N.Italians plot northern to this reference so imagine just the distance between these.

The regions that bridge the gap are Liguria and Emilia, that's all.

To finish the first MAP wasn't conceived to be very precise, I don't consider Serbians as an East Med population, it's you that are repeating for pages the same thing whereas I'm telling you that I made up rapidly.

It's not lumping up, you really don't know nothing about East Med genetics. W.Jews and other E.Med populations are more or less related by a common ANCESTRY.

[Coastal Elite]

I can cut off part of the cluster, greeks, italians and albanians aren't clearly the only people that make the East Med continuum.

Actually my picture wasn't to be taken as an exact map it was only a rapid draw to show approximately the East med continuum you are taking it too seriously lol.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20191113/73f02c0fb8999aa13f95333546f8783b.jpg

Yeah, it's cool, I'm nitpicking a little. I think places with significant Slavic admixture are probably a good cut off point, like around Bulgaria, so I think you have it right with the latest one.

[Samnium]

Yeah, it's cool, I'm nitpicking a little. I think places with significant Slavic admixture are probably a good cut off point, like around Bulgaria, so I think you have it right with the latest one.I think though that some Romanians might end up in the cluster, from what I've heard there are Romanians very north shifted and the averages might not be very representative. For example I doubt that North-Western Romanians will be similar to Southern ones.



Envoyé de mon ALE-L21 en utilisant Tapatalk

[Jana]

The East Med continuum is proven by dozens of genetic studies my dear.

N.Italy isn't considered as an East Med population as Iberians aren't SE Euros.

What we can call a significant Levantine component (East Med if you want) begin in FIRENZE not in N.Italy.

If you see the distances between like ViaFluminia and the Tuscany sample that he's northern shifted, it's much more important than the distance between an albanian and a macedonian.

The Tuscan reference on k13 corresponds to what a northern Tuscan is, and he's distant to the N.Italian reference, many many N.Italians plot northern to this reference so imagine just the distance between these.

The regions that bridge the gap are Liguria and Emilia, that's all.

To finish the first MAP wasn't conceived to be very precise, I don't consider Serbians as an East Med population, it's you that are repeating for pages the same thing whereas I'm telling you that I made up rapidly.

It's not lumping up, you really don't know nothing about East Med genetics. W.Jews and other E.Med populations are more or less related by a common ANCESTRY.

Lot of text for nothing.
Ofcourse I am aware of the fact N.Italians are SW Europeans. But it doesn't seem you are aware of the fact there is ocean of difference between Slavic speaking Macedonian and a Cretan, for instance.
They are simply not similar.

[Coastal Elite]

Not to get too off topic but they should do a sci-fi movie where society is reorganized based on PCA placement or something along those lines. This is free material for aspiring screen writers.

[J. Ketch]

Not to get too off topic but they should do a sci-fi movie where society is reorganized based on PCA placement or something along those lines. This is free material for aspiring screen writers.
That's the dream, why do you think I do these.

I can envision the film now, Schindler's PCA.

[Coastal Elite]

That's the dream, why do you think I do these.

I can envision the film now, Schindler's PCA.

I was thinking along the lines of Gattaca, but with PCAs. Underrated movie.

[J. Ketch]

Mr. G
Euro
https://i.postimg.cc/44WV9CsY/mrg2.png

West Eurasian
https://i.postimg.cc/ZqmCQjJk/mrg.png

[Maintenance]

It's enough to see gap between Vojnik (slavic-speaking Macedonian), Impaler (south Romanian with Greek ancestry) vs Freeroostah (northern Greek)and MagnusDark (Albanian).
Bigger than between Tuscany and Northern Italy.

What?

[WeirdLookingFellow]

I think though that some Romanians might end up in the cluster, from what I've heard there are Romanians very north shifted and the averages might not be very representative. For example I doubt that North-Western Romanians will be similar to Southern ones.



Envoyé de mon ALE-L21 en utilisant Tapatalk

Oddly, there's no significant difference between current NW Romanian samples and other regions apart from S Romania, if we consider that the samples are accurate in terms of origin.

A population bordering on Zakarpattia is still quite separate from Hungarians and Ukrainians, there's really a lacking continuity. I think there actually is but we're just lacking samples, but NW Romanians still cluster close enough with other Romanians rather than looking more Hungarian or Ukrainian, although mixed individuals exist of course.

[Samnium]

Oddly, there's no significant difference between current NW Romanian samples and other regions apart from S Romania, if we consider that the samples are accurate in terms of origin.

A population bordering on Zakarpattia is still quite separate from Hungarians and Ukrainians, there's really a lacking continuity. I think there actually is but we're just lacking samples, but NW Romanians still cluster close enough with other Romanians rather than looking more Hungarian or Ukrainian, although mixed individuals exist of course.Yes I think the gap is between the southern regions really.

And I've also noticed that for other countries, there is a big void between the two parallel branches of Southern Europe also.

[Jana]

What?

What is not clear to you?

[WeirdLookingFellow]

Yes I think the gap is between the southern regions really.

And I've also noticed that for other countries, there is a big void between the two parallel branches of Southern Europe also.

We only have samples from SW Gorj area it's not very representative of the whole south Romanian region. Also I'm not even certain what samples were used for the NW region. It's just a huge pile of sad really.

[Jana]

NW Romanians are closest to Serbs. Entire western Romania looks to be continuation with Serbia rather than with Hungary.

[Maintenance]

What is not clear to you?

he has no greek ancestry.

[Jana]

he has no greek ancestry.

He does, from Macedonia as far as I remember.

[Maintenance]

He does, from Macedonia as far as I remember.

since when did greeks start scoring iran and south asia and plot so far south east from romania and greece?

[Jana]

since when did greeks start scoring iran and south asia and plot so far south east from romania and greece?

Completely irrelevant and I don't really know why are you discussing his ancestry when he mentioned his recent Greek ancestor from Thessaloniki.
I know what you want to say, it's very obvious, but that doesn't have anything to do with being part Greek.

I will forward him this topic.

[Luke35]

Mr. G
Euro
https://i.postimg.cc/44WV9CsY/mrg2.png

West Eurasian
https://i.postimg.cc/ZqmCQjJk/mrg.png

Any idea why I get a fairly sizable southeastern shift on the West Eurasian plot?

[Maintenance]

Completely irrelevant and I don't really know why are you discussing his ancestry when he mentioned his recent Greek ancestor from Thessaloniki.
I know what you want to say, it's very obvious, but that doesn't have anything to do with being part Greek.

I will forward him this topic.

its relevant since you basically claim greeks score like him which is nowhere close to reality.

[Jana]

its relevant since you basically claim greeks score like him which is nowhere close to reality.

Are you dumb or something? His exotic admixture isn't from Greeks :laugh:
I said he has Greek ancestry and is still more north than actual Greeks to illustrate how there is gap between southern and eastern Balkan on this PCA.

You lie he has no Greek ancestry and I don't know who give you this right, so I'll leave it to him to answer.

[Maintenance]

Are you dumb or something? His exotic admixture isn't from Greeks :laugh:
I said he has Greek ancestry and is still more north than actual Greeks to illustrate how there is gap between southern and eastern Balkan on this PCA.

You lie he has no Greek ancestry and I don't know who give you this right, so I'll leave it to him to answer.

What exotic admixture?
why do you use him to compare with others?

[J. Ketch]

Any idea why I get a fairly sizable southeastern shift on the West Eurasian plot?
As somebody mentioned earlier, in the West Eurasian plot it seems even a slight bit of non-Euro can shift you away from the European cluster quite noticeably, so it might be that.

[Luke35]

As somebody mentioned earlier, in the West Eurasian plot it seems even a slight bit of non-Euro can shift you away from the European cluster quite noticeably, so it might be that.

Okay, I was wondering about that. I have a small affinity for South Central Asia, so that may very well be it. Thanks for your work.

[Samnium]

We only have samples from SW Gorj area it's not very representative of the whole south Romanian region. Also I'm not even certain what samples were used for the NW region. It's just a huge pile of sad really.The problems of samples is even more blatant for Italy.

The Piedmontese reference is a reference that all Piedmontese almost plot northern than it. The Calabrian reference is more southern than Maltese, they picked up an outlier to do that...

I could go on and on for every region.

[Grace O'Malley]

Mr. G
Euro
https://i.postimg.cc/44WV9CsY/mrg2.png

West Eurasian
https://i.postimg.cc/ZqmCQjJk/mrg.png

All these plots are remarkably consistent for me. I always seem to plot in the same place.

[Lucas]

Incredible that Hulu is plotting comfortably with Italians I haven't seen an Albanian plotting like that before

Edit: oh magnusdark too, very close to the Tuscan average

He has such plotting on nearly every calculator. Why some Albanians plots like Tuscans is big mystery for me. There were Illyrian tribes in Apulia but not there. And there weren't Roman / Italian colonists in Albania except one or two coastal cities.

[Samnium]

He has such plotting on nearly every calculator. Why some Albanians plots like Tuscans is big mystery for me. There were Illyrian tribes in Apulia but not there. And there weren't Roman / Italian colonists in Albania except one or two coastal cities.

There is nothing historically that can explain that.

It's very strange.

[Daos777]

Daos_scaled,0.126344,0.114755,0.056568,0.04522,0.0 30467,0.019243,0.00564,-0.002308,-0.00634,-0.014761,-0.002598,-0.010041,0.016353,0.015689,-0.018865,0.010607,0.021905,-0.004941,-0.00729,0.004377,0.004118,-0.003339,0.004807,-0.00012,-0.006826

,PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC1 2,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC2 2,PC23,PC24,PC25

Daos,0.0111,0.0113,0.015,0.014,0.0099,0.0069,0.002 4,-0.001,-0.0031,-0.0081,-0.0016,-0.0067,0.011,0.0114,-0.0139,0.008,0.0168,-0.0039,-0.0058,0.0035,0.0033,-0.0027,0.0039,-0.0001,-0.0057


Can someone add me? Thanks.

[Leto]

There is nothing historically that can explain that.

It's very strange.
There is many recent immigrants from Albania in Italy. I guess they pass there easily physically, don't they?

[Samnium]

There is many recent immigrants from Albania in Italy. I guess they pass there easily physically, don't they?They are born in Albania, it's true that there was a lot of Albanians immigrants in Italy, the reverse isn't true at all.

[Leto]

They are born in Albania, it's true that there was a lot of Albanians immigrants in Italy, the reverse isn't true at all.
Lol, I know they are from Albania, I mean in Italy they can pass as Italians due to similar genetic components.

[Samnium]

Lol, I know they are from Albania, I mean in Italy they can pass as Italians due to similar genetic components.Of course.

Don't know why they plot in Central Italy seriously. That means that they have NW ancestry instead of NE.

[Lemgrant]

He has such plotting on nearly every calculator. Why some Albanians plots like Tuscans is big mystery for me. There were Illyrian tribes in Apulia but not there. And there weren't Roman / Italian colonists in Albania except one or two coastal cities.

nope
https://lemgrant.github.io/g25views/
https://i.imgur.com/iqWGETq.png

[Adamastor]

He has such plotting on nearly every calculator. Why some Albanians plots like Tuscans is big mystery for me. There were Illyrian tribes in Apulia but not there. And there weren't Roman / Italian colonists in Albania except one or two coastal cities.

Well, it's simple: Albanians and Tuscans share similar levels of West Med and East Med ancestry for a series of historical reasons. Illyrians were kind of like North Italians/Iberians minus exotic influences these groups now have and then became easternized by Aegean input. The same is probably true for Tuscans, they probably were ''West_Med'' like in the past but absorbed eastern stuff in the Roman period.

Thr Romans created a big mess of ''easternizing'' in a lot of mediterranean populations with their racially admixed multiculti empire. Only Iberians and North Italians managed to escape that and only partially (the additional West Asian in N. Italians and the North African-SSA in Iberians is to be blamed on the Romans).

The big reality is that this ''East_Med'' stuff isn't really European admixture and we consider it as such just for coping because some Southern Europeans score it predominantly.

[J. Ketch]

Viriato (aka Bras de something Portuguese)

West Eurasian
https://i.postimg.cc/QtQ43sBN/viriato1.png

Euro
https://i.postimg.cc/pdDY9CPq/viriato2.png

That's about it for the West Eurasian PCA, it's interesting but not as accurate for most of Europe.

[Voskos]

@adamastor. South albanians call themselves tosks, dont forget that.

[Lucas]

@adamastor. South albanians call themselves tosks, dont forget that.

Yes, Adamstor theory seems plausible but why the hell south Albanians call themselves "Tosks" then? Such coincidence is incredible.

[Lemgrant]

@adamastor. South albanians call themselves tosks, dont forget that.

επίσης έχω ακούσει το εξής: "Ο Ιταλός είναι καλοντυμένος Αλβανός"

[Samnium]

Well, it's simple: Albanians and Tuscans share similar levels of West Med and East Med ancestry for a series of historical reasons. Illyrians were kind of like North Italians/Iberians minus exotic influences these groups now have and then became easternized by Aegean input. The same is probably true for Tuscans, they probably were ''West_Med'' like in the past but absorbed eastern stuff in the Roman period.

Thr Romans created a big mess of ''easternizing'' in a lot of mediterranean populations with their racially admixed multiculti empire. Only Iberians and North Italians managed to escape that and only partially (the additional West Asian in N. Italians and the North African-SSA in Iberians is to be blamed on the Romans).

The big reality is that this ''East_Med'' stuff isn't really European admixture and we consider it as such just for coping because some Southern Europeans score it predominantly.I don't think that all the italian peninsula was Iberian-like, see just where the Sicilian beaker plot for example.

It's sardinian-like not Iberian. There is a study that guessed that S.Italy was sardinian-like in Neolithic times.

[Leto]

...
Someone I know, add him please

PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC12 ,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC22 ,PC23,PC24,PC25
Jordi_scaled,0.114961,0.153345,0.040729,-0.00646,0.045239,-0.006693,-0.0047,0.008077,0.025975,0.035172,0.001624,0.00854 2,-0.015758,0.000963,0.011808,-0.009149,-0.011083,-0.00152,0.008799,-0.00988,0.00025,0.001237,0.001356,-0.005181,0.003233

[MagnusDark]

@adamastor. South albanians call themselves tosks, dont forget that.

There is zero evidence suggesting the root of the word Tosk comes from Tuscan/Etruscan. None whatsoever.

I am also a Gheg, not a Tosk. All it is, is similar admixture for certain components.

[Daos777]

Well, it's simple: Albanians and Tuscans share similar levels of West Med and East Med ancestry for a series of historical reasons. Illyrians were kind of like North Italians/Iberians minus exotic influences these groups now have and then became easternized by Aegean input. The same is probably true for Tuscans, they probably were ''West_Med'' like in the past but absorbed eastern stuff in the Roman period.

Thr Romans created a big mess of ''easternizing'' in a lot of mediterranean populations with their racially admixed multiculti empire. Only Iberians and North Italians managed to escape that and only partially (the additional West Asian in N. Italians and the North African-SSA in Iberians is to be blamed on the Romans).

The big reality is that this ''East_Med'' stuff isn't really European admixture and we consider it as such just for coping because some Southern Europeans score it predominantly.

Is East Med identical to west Asian?

[Adamastor]

Is East Med identical to west Asian?

No, West Asian is some kind of Georgian/Abkhazian related stuff, East Med is Levantine. But both West Asians and Levantines share some common ancestry.

[Leto]

Is East Med identical to west Asian?
The East Med is closest to the Red Sea.

[Daos777]

Viriato (aka Bras de something Portuguese)

West Eurasian
https://i.postimg.cc/QtQ43sBN/viriato1.png

Euro
https://i.postimg.cc/pdDY9CPq/viriato2.png

That's about it for the West Eurasian PCA, it's interesting but not as accurate for most of Europe.

Can you add me to the PCA ?

Daos_scaled,0.126344,0.114755,0.056568,0.04522,0.0 30467,0.019243,0.00564,-0.002308,-0.00634,-0.014761,-0.002598,-0.010041,0.016353,0.015689,-0.018865,0.010607,0.021905,-0.004941,-0.00729,0.004377,0.004118,-0.003339,0.004807,-0.00012,-0.006826



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[J. Ketch]

Someone I know, add him please

PC1,PC2,PC3,PC4,PC5,PC6,PC7,PC8,PC9,PC10,PC11,PC12 ,PC13,PC14,PC15,PC16,PC17,PC18,PC19,PC20,PC21,PC22 ,PC23,PC24,PC25
Jordi_scaled,0.114961,0.153345,0.040729,-0.00646,0.045239,-0.006693,-0.0047,0.008077,0.025975,0.035172,0.001624,0.00854 2,-0.015758,0.000963,0.011808,-0.009149,-0.011083,-0.00152,0.008799,-0.00988,0.00025,0.001237,0.001356,-0.005181,0.003233


Can you add me to the PCA ?

Daos_scaled,0.126344,0.114755,0.056568,0.04522,0.0 30467,0.019243,0.00564,-0.002308,-0.00634,-0.014761,-0.002598,-0.010041,0.016353,0.015689,-0.018865,0.010607,0.021905,-0.004941,-0.00729,0.004377,0.004118,-0.003339,0.004807,-0.00012,-0.006826



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
https://i.postimg.cc/fTR5byBp/wshdkhwd.png

[J. Ketch]

nope
https://lemgrant.github.io/g25views/
https://i.imgur.com/iqWGETq.png
That's from the Euro plot though. The Tuscan average is closer in the West Eurasian plot (which shows that it's inferior).

[Lemgrant]

That's from the Euro plot though. The Tuscan average is closer in the West Eurasian plot (which shows that it's inferior).

on both 'Europe 1' and 'West Eurasia' pca, MagnusDark is shifted towards Sardinia actually, because of his higher than average Albanian or Tuscany score of 'West_Med' component. Sardinians have the highest West_Med score (51.87).

here is his Eurogenes K13:
https://i.imgur.com/kfWtYBm.png

[savvas]

The big reality is that this ''East_Med'' stuff isn't really European admixture and we consider it as such just for coping because some Southern Europeans score it predominantly.

Mfw Iron Age Italians were on average 11% non-European. Proto-Villanovans confirmed mestizo:

https://i.imgur.com/0OI22ts.png