Were early Romans and ancient Italians WHITE?

[savvas]

Definition of white: Being genetically closer to all NW Europeans (Brits, Scandinavians and Dutch/North Germans) than to Ashkenazi Jews.
Answer: No, only one sample (1 out of 8, the Prenestinian) is genetically closer to NW Europeans than to Ashkenazi Jews.

ITA_Proto-Villanovan:RMPR1 (Proto-Picene?):

https://i.imgur.com/ZSYNGAX.png

ITA_Villanovan:RMPR1015 (early Etruscan):

https://i.imgur.com/kdckVUo.png

ITA_Etruscan:RMPR473 (Etruscan):

https://i.imgur.com/zAQiqSc.png

ITA_Etruscan:RMPR474b (Etruscan):

https://i.imgur.com/J3Q2JlA.png

ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA:RMPR435b (Latin?):

https://i.imgur.com/tRUvRL8.png

ITA_Boville_Ernica_Latini_IA:RMPR1021 (Latin):

https://i.imgur.com/uaGxKrJ.png

ITA_Ardea_Latini_IA:RMPR851 (Latin):

https://i.imgur.com/GiYtR62.png

ITA_Rome_Latini_IA:RMPR1016 (Latin):

https://i.imgur.com/GVwE44C.png

[Karol Klačansky]

Ancient and early Roman's were European and whitex imperial Roman's were east med/Levantine.

Sent from my ANE-LX1 using Tapatalk

[Karol Klačansky]

Ancient and early Roman's were European and white, imperial Roman's were east med/Levantine so just depends what you classify as white. They for sure weren't Scandinavian or Sub-Saharan African [emoji23]

Sent from my ANE-LX1 using Tapatalk

[Blondie]

Romans were white europeans, and northern or northwestern europeans are not perfect population to determine average europeans, light hair doesn't make you more european. I think average europeans are central euros who are between north and south, west and east.

[MinervaItalica]

Reading the title it sounds like one of those dumb Quora question.

And wtf is that definition of "white"? Completely wrong.

[Samnium]

Definition of white: Being genetically closer to all NW Europeans (Brits, Scandinavians and Dutch/North Germans) than to Ashkenazi Jews.

This is a ridiculous definition.

Ashkenazi anyway aren't Middle-Easterners so I don't know where is your point.

[Calpurnius]

Seems unfair to use Ashkenazi, they are in great part European themselves. Comparison should be between Anglos and maybe Lebanese or Syrians.

[Samnium]

Seems unfair to use Ashkenazi, they are in great part European themselves. Comparison should be between Anglos and maybe Lebanese or Syrians.

Yes. And Ancient Romans were closer to anybody from Europe than Lebanese.

[Kamal900]

This is a ridiculous definition.

Ashkenazi anyway aren't Middle-Easterners so I don't know where is your point.

Well, not really. Ashkenazi Jews are 45% genetically Canaanites on average which is on the same level as Palestinian Muslims. Not to mention that they do have Berber admixture as well. In other words, Ashkenazi Jews are genetically over 50% MENA on average.

[ninjaboy]

Ancient and early Roman's were European and whitex imperial Roman's were east med/Levantine.

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What many fail to understand is that this study doesn't tell the whole story. I'm sure that in imperial Rome there were tons of Gallic and other Northern European people too, their remains were just not found and sampled yet. I wouldn't be surprised when Latin or Etruscan outliers with Nordic/Celtic admixture would pop out too. So we are dealing here with biased samples. Ancient Rome had like modern cities different quarters and areas where migrants from the same origin lived and were buried together. Juvenal, Cicero and Tacitus did not consider these "Imperial Romans" to be proper or real Romans unlike this study that wants people to believe that. We don't even have the burial context for having a better understanding about who these "imperial Romans" were and what they were doing in Rome. When people pretend that scientists have no bias whatsover they are naive. Keep in mind that the academic world leans heavily to progressive liberalism. Besides "whiteness" is not determined by Nordic genes. The original Romans were without a doubt white and European regardless whether they were closely related to Northern Europeans or not. Nordic, Slavic, Mediterranean or Celtic people are the different stocks of the same race.

[Samnium]

Well, not really. Ashkenazi Jews are 45% genetically Canaanites on average which is on the same level as Palestinian Muslims. Not to mention that they do have Berber admixture as well. In other words, Ashkenazi Jews are genetically over 50% MENA on average.

They can be modeled as roughly 50% european so it's not fair saying that romans weren't white because closer to them than extreme-north europeans (like scandinavians)

[Samnium]

What many fail to understand is that this study doesn't tell the whole story. I'm sure that in imperial Rome there were tons of Gallic and other Northern European people too, their remains were just not found and sampled yet. I wouldn't be surprised when Latin or Etruscan outliers with Nordic/Celtic admixture would pop out too. So we are dealing here with biased samples. Ancient Rome had like modern cities different quarters and areas where migrants from the same origin lived and were buried together. Juvenal, Cicero and Tacitus did not consider these "Imperial Romans" to be proper or real Romans unlike this study that wants people to believe that. We don't even have the burial context for having a better understanding about who these "imperial Romans" were and what they were doing in Rome. When people pretend that scientists have no bias whatsover they are naive. Keep in mind that the academic world leans heavily to progressive liberalism. Besides "whiteness" is not determined by Nordic genes. The original Romans were without a doubt white and European regardless whether they were closely related to Northern Europeans or not. Nordic, Slavic, Mediterranean or Celtic people are the different stocks of the same race.

Ancient Romans from republican era were similar to modern Iberians and N.Italians I think, maybe with a little bit less East-Med, in this study the Iron Age samples are very close to these populations. The Neolithic samples are sardinian-like.

"Celtic" doesn't means nothing by the way genetically. Iron Age celts were probably similar to Iron Age Italics.

[ninjaboy]

Ancient and early Roman's were European and whitex imperial Roman's were east med/Levantine.

Sent from my ANE-LX1 using Tapatalk

What many fail to understand is that this study doesn't tell the whole story. I'm sure that in imperial Rome there were tons of Gallic and other Northern European people too, their remains were just not found and sampled yet. I wouldn't be surprised when Latin or Etruscan outliers with Nordic/Celtic admixture would pop out too. So we are dealing here with biased samples. Ancient Rome had like modern cities different quarters and areas where migrants from the same origin lived and were buried together. Juvenal, Cicero and Tacitus did not consider these "Imperial Romans" to be proper or real Romans unlike this study that wants people to believe that. We don't even have the burial context for having a better understanding about who these "imperial Romans" were and what they were doing in Rome. When people pretend that scientists have no bias whatsover they are naive. Keep in mind that the academic world leans heavily to progressive liberalism. Besides "whiteness" is not determined by Nordic genes. The original Romans were without a doubt white and European regardless whether they were closely related to Northern Europeans or not. Nordic, Slavic, Mediterranean or Celtic people are the different stocks of the same race.

[savvas]

Besides "whiteness" is not determined by Nordic genes. The original Romans were without a doubt white and European regardless whether they were closely related to Northern Europeans or not. Nordic, Slavic, Mediterranean or Celtic people are the different stocks of the same race.

Definition of white?

[TheMaestro]

Si

[ninjaboy]

When you read what traditional Romans thought about being flooded with foreign people, their fear to lose their identity and "Romaness", you would think you are reading modern conservative criticism on mass- immigration. Tacitus and Cicero wrote many things about Jews that today would be considered antisemitic. Juvenal was complaining about the Greek(also Syrian) migrants and didn't even consider many of them to be proper Greeks. Many genetics studies are being used to promote and push diversity and multiculturalism. However what these studies don't tell is that people back then whether Romans, Greeks, Celts, Germanics, Phoenicians or Jews were tribalistic and ethnocentric to the bones. Hence conflicts and ethnic tensions were programmed. For example in Alexandria there was lots of ethnic tension between Greeks and Jews that ended in revolts. The Romans that ruled in Egypt preferred the Greeks over the native Egyptians, because for them the Greeks were more like them, etc.



Tacitus doesn’t just demonize the Jews for rejecting Roman religion; he also targets them as a “race” that is “hateful to the gods,” laying the groundwork for an anti-Semitism that consistently conflates race and faith. Moreover, his screed against the Jewish people resounds with some painfully familiar anti-Semitic stereotypes.


Despite his assertion that Jews are essentially eternal foreigners who want to be left alone, Tacitus feeds on a common Roman fear that foreigners will grow to outnumber “true” Roman citizens by asserting that Jews
“…take thought to increase their numbers; for they regard it as a crime to kill any late-born child, and they believe that the souls of those who are killed in battle or by the executioner are immortal: hence comes their passion for begetting children and their scorn of death.”

https://www.publicmedievalist.com/anti-semitism-older-think/

[Adamastor]

White is a dumb term, who cares. They were still closer to modern Italians and that's all that matters.

[TheOldNorth]

If you consider the EEF to be white then yes

[Karol Klačansky]

What many fail to understand is that this study doesn't tell the whole story. I'm sure that in imperial Rome there were tons of Gallic and other Northern European people too, their remains were just not found and sampled yet. I wouldn't be surprised when Latin or Etruscan outliers with Nordic/Celtic admixture would pop out too. So we are dealing here with biased samples. Ancient Rome had like modern cities different quarters and areas where migrants from the same origin lived and were buried together. Juvenal, Cicero and Tacitus did not consider these "Imperial Romans" to be proper or real Romans unlike this study that wants people to believe that. We don't even have the burial context for having a better understanding about who these "imperial Romans" were and what they were doing in Rome. When people pretend that scientists have no bias whatsover they are naive. Keep in mind that the academic world leans heavily to progressive liberalism. Besides "whiteness" is not determined by Nordic genes. The original Romans were without a doubt white and European regardless whether they were closely related to Northern Europeans or not. Nordic, Slavic, Mediterranean or Celtic people are the different stocks of the same race.Problem is, is that modern Italians show up with a lot p imperial Roman heritage so it wasnt just in the cities it affected all of Italy, how long that took exactly, looks like only a couple of hundred years.

Sent from my ANE-LX1 using Tapatalk

[Smeagol]

Well, not really. Ashkenazi Jews are 45% genetically Canaanites on average which is on the same level as Palestinian Muslims. Not to mention that they do have Berber admixture as well. In other words, Ashkenazi Jews are genetically over 50% MENA on average.

Ashkenazi Jews don't score that much Berber though. Definitely not over 5%.

[Kamal900]

They can be modeled as roughly 50% european so it's not fair saying that romans weren't white because closer to them than extreme-north europeans (like scandinavians)

Of course..just they're not purely European really, and the folks from Stormfront.org would have a massive heart attack.

[ninjaboy]

If you consider the EEF to be white then yes

Well the EEF were light skinned and had already genes for light eyes and hair. Keep in mind all Europeans from North to South are descendants of the 3 population, EEF, WHG and Steppe/Yamnaya people. What makes Northern Europeans and Southern Europeans distinct from each other is their different percentage of their EEF and Yamnaya admixture. Northern Europeans are almost 50% Yamnaya and around 30-40% EEF. Southern Europeans on the contrary are often around 50-60% EEF and maxium 30% Yamnaya. Sardinians have less than 10% Steppe ancestry and are almost 80% EEF. So Italics or the original Romans were genetically between Northern Europeans and Southern Europeans with small Steppe admixture.

[Leto]

Well, not really. Ashkenazi Jews are 45% genetically Canaanites on average which is on the same level as Palestinian Muslims. Not to mention that they do have Berber admixture as well. In other words, Ashkenazi Jews are genetically over 50% MENA on average.
From the LM K36 nMonte runner

"sample": "German_Ashkenazy:Average",
"fit": 1.34,
"Lebanon_Christian": 55.83,
"Swiss_Italian": 44.17,
"PL_Lublin": 0,
"closestDistances": [
"Lebanon_Christian:average: 4.226184",
"Swiss_Italian:average: 5.142515",
"PL_Lublin:average: 8.630831"

"sample": "Poland_Ashkenazy:Average",
"fit": 1.779,
"Lebanon_Christian": 50,
"Swiss_Italian": 45.83,
"PL_Lublin": 4.17,
"closestDistances": [
"Lebanon_Christian:average: 4.799582",
"Swiss_Italian:average: 4.870496",
"PL_Lublin:average: 8.011543"

"sample": "Belarus_Ashkenazy:Average",
"fit": 1.4917,
"Lebanon_Christian": 49.17,
"Swiss_Italian": 35.83,
"PL_Lublin": 15,
"closestDistances": [
"Lebanon_Christian:average: 4.784806",
"Swiss_Italian:average: 4.940163",
"PL_Lublin:average: 7.230958"

"sample": "Latvia_Ashkenazy:Average",
"fit": 1.4635,
"Lebanon_Christian": 55,
"Swiss_Italian": 39.17,
"PL_Lublin": 5.83,
"closestDistances": [
"Lebanon_Christian:average: 4.266021",
"Swiss_Italian:average: 5.205547",
"PL_Lublin:average: 8.080518"

"sample": "France_Ashkenazy:Average",
"fit": 1.5549,
"Lebanon_Christian": 55.83,
"Swiss_Italian": 44.17,
"PL_Lublin": 0,
"closestDistances": [
"Lebanon_Christian:average: 4.318602",
"Swiss_Italian:average: 5.182292",
"PL_Lublin:average: 8.739239"

"sample": "NL_Ashkenazy:Average",
"fit": 1.3248,
"Swiss_Italian": 59.17,
"Lebanon_Christian": 28.33,
"PL_Lublin": 12.5,
"closestDistances": [
"Swiss_Italian:average: 3.134308",
"Lebanon_Christian:average: 6.475239",
"PL_Lublin:average: 6.765979"

[Kamal900]

Ashkenazi Jews don't score that much Berber though. Definitely not over 5%.

Well..it's 6.6% on average, so..
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14484-Could-Western-Jews-(Ash-and-Seph-)-descend-from-Aegeans-and-Levantine-admixture&p=621108&viewfull=1#post621108

[Token]

From the LM K36 nMonte runner

"sample": "German_Ashkenazy:Average",
"fit": 1.34,
"Lebanon_Christian": 55.83,
"Swiss_Italian": 44.17,
"PL_Lublin": 0,
"closestDistances": [
"Lebanon_Christian:average: 4.226184",
"Swiss_Italian:average: 5.142515",
"PL_Lublin:average: 8.630831"
Why would their European ancestry be closest to Swiss Italians? I'd say it is more likely that their European ancestry is predominantly East Mediterranean with some Slavic and German accretion.

[Smeagol]

From the LM K36 nMonte runner

"sample": "German_Ashkenazy:Average",
"fit": 1.34,
"Lebanon_Christian": 55.83,
"Swiss_Italian": 44.17,
"PL_Lublin": 0,
"closestDistances": [
"Lebanon_Christian:average: 4.226184",
"Swiss_Italian:average: 5.142515",
"PL_Lublin:average: 8.630831"

"sample": "Poland_Ashkenazy:Average",
"fit": 1.779,
"Lebanon_Christian": 50,
"Swiss_Italian": 45.83,
"PL_Lublin": 4.17,
"closestDistances": [
"Lebanon_Christian:average: 4.799582",
"Swiss_Italian:average: 4.870496",
"PL_Lublin:average: 8.011543"

"sample": "Belarus_Ashkenazy:Average",
"fit": 1.4917,
"Lebanon_Christian": 49.17,
"Swiss_Italian": 35.83,
"PL_Lublin": 15,
"closestDistances": [
"Lebanon_Christian:average: 4.784806",
"Swiss_Italian:average: 4.940163",
"PL_Lublin:average: 7.230958"

"sample": "Latvia_Ashkenazy:Average",
"fit": 1.4635,
"Lebanon_Christian": 55,
"Swiss_Italian": 39.17,
"PL_Lublin": 5.83,
"closestDistances": [
"Lebanon_Christian:average: 4.266021",
"Swiss_Italian:average: 5.205547",
"PL_Lublin:average: 8.080518"

"sample": "France_Ashkenazy:Average",
"fit": 1.5549,
"Lebanon_Christian": 55.83,
"Swiss_Italian": 44.17,
"PL_Lublin": 0,
"closestDistances": [
"Lebanon_Christian:average: 4.318602",
"Swiss_Italian:average: 5.182292",
"PL_Lublin:average: 8.739239"

"sample": "NL_Ashkenazy:Average",
"fit": 1.3248,
"Swiss_Italian": 59.17,
"Lebanon_Christian": 28.33,
"PL_Lublin": 12.5,
"closestDistances": [
"Swiss_Italian:average: 3.134308",
"Lebanon_Christian:average: 6.475239",
"PL_Lublin:average: 6.765979"

There are clearly significant differences between eastern and western Ashkenazi.

[savvas]

LA CREATURA ROMANA DELLA REPUBBLICA

https://i.imgur.com/tMw0C2M.png

[Kamal900]

From the LM K36 nMonte runner

"sample": "German_Ashkenazy:Average",
"fit": 1.34,
"Lebanon_Christian": 55.83,
"Swiss_Italian": 44.17,
"PL_Lublin": 0,
"closestDistances": [
"Lebanon_Christian:average: 4.226184",
"Swiss_Italian:average: 5.142515",
"PL_Lublin:average: 8.630831"

"sample": "Poland_Ashkenazy:Average",
"fit": 1.779,
"Lebanon_Christian": 50,
"Swiss_Italian": 45.83,
"PL_Lublin": 4.17,
"closestDistances": [
"Lebanon_Christian:average: 4.799582",
"Swiss_Italian:average: 4.870496",
"PL_Lublin:average: 8.011543"

"sample": "Belarus_Ashkenazy:Average",
"fit": 1.4917,
"Lebanon_Christian": 49.17,
"Swiss_Italian": 35.83,
"PL_Lublin": 15,
"closestDistances": [
"Lebanon_Christian:average: 4.784806",
"Swiss_Italian:average: 4.940163",
"PL_Lublin:average: 7.230958"

"sample": "Latvia_Ashkenazy:Average",
"fit": 1.4635,
"Lebanon_Christian": 55,
"Swiss_Italian": 39.17,
"PL_Lublin": 5.83,
"closestDistances": [
"Lebanon_Christian:average: 4.266021",
"Swiss_Italian:average: 5.205547",
"PL_Lublin:average: 8.080518"

"sample": "France_Ashkenazy:Average",
"fit": 1.5549,
"Lebanon_Christian": 55.83,
"Swiss_Italian": 44.17,
"PL_Lublin": 0,
"closestDistances": [
"Lebanon_Christian:average: 4.318602",
"Swiss_Italian:average: 5.182292",
"PL_Lublin:average: 8.739239"

"sample": "NL_Ashkenazy:Average",
"fit": 1.3248,
"Swiss_Italian": 59.17,
"Lebanon_Christian": 28.33,
"PL_Lublin": 12.5,
"closestDistances": [
"Swiss_Italian:average: 3.134308",
"Lebanon_Christian:average: 6.475239",
"PL_Lublin:average: 6.765979"

*ahem* I was talking about the ancient genetic components of Ashkenazi Jews. Here's the G25 average results of Palestinian mulsims:

"sample": "Test1:Palestinian",
"fit": 1.355,
"Lebanese_Christian": 69.17,
"Egyptian": 15,
"BedouinB": 12.5,
"Dinka": 3.33,

Palestinian Christians:

"sample": "Test1:Palestinian_Beit_Sahour",
"fit": 2.2582,
"Lebanese_Christian": 95.83,
"BedouinB": 4.17,
"Dinka": 0,
"Egyptian": 0,

[Voskos]

All of the above samples except maybe one seem to be closer to Germans than to Ashkenazis.

I'm also surprised by how close the protovillanovan is to Albanians.

[Smeagol]

Well..it's 6.6% on average, so..
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14484-Could-Western-Jews-(Ash-and-Seph-)-descend-from-Aegeans-and-Levantine-admixture&p=621108&viewfull=1#post621108

Well this is just one way they could be modeled (6% Guanche). For example, it also gives 24% Iberian but Ashkenazis clearly don't derive a quarter of their ancestry from Iberia.

[Kamal900]

Well this is just one way they could be modeled (6% Guanche). For example, it also gives 24% Iberian but Ashkenazis clearly don't derive a quarter of their ancestry from Iberia.

Obviously not. It's due to the overlap genetic components between them and Iberians really. It doesn't mean they derive such components directly from them, you know?

[The Lawspeaker]

Yes. Next question ?

[Smeagol]

Obviously not. It's due to the overlap genetic components between them and Iberians really. It doesn't mean they derive such components directly from them, you know?

Yes, I know, which is why it's not actually showing average Ashkenazi as 6% North African. I mean you could also model Ashkenazi as 90% Mycenaean.

[dududud]

If you are North Italian, you are close to these Early Romans.

[vbnetkhio]

Ashkenazi Jews.


Ashkenazi Jews have European admixture. could you try with an a purer Levantine population, for example Druze?

[Blondie]

In the roman times North Italy was populated by romanized celts later they got germanic influence too, i doubt they are closest to original romans. Romans looked like central italians today and south Italy got lot of greek influence.

[ninjaboy]

Definition of white?


I already told you that you can‘t take extremely white people like Germanic/Nordic people as standard for “whiteness“. White people have a range of looks from extremely white till swarthy. Besides here the reconstructed statue of the Italic Roman emperor Augustus based on the original pigment remains on the marble. Nonone on his right mind would deny that the depicted man on the sculpture was white just because he was of Italic than Nordic stock. http://www.tarragonaturisme.cat/experience/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/August.jpg

Ancient Romans on the busts resembled more Northern Europeans than Asheknazi Jews. Askenazi Jews have their distinctive “Jewish“ look even when they are blond and blue eyed.

[Smeagol]

Askenazi Jews have their distinctive “Jewish“ look even when they are blond and blue eyed.

Plenty of Ashkenazi Jews don't look like a Jewish caricature.
http://www.zam.it/images/5333/2.jpg

[savvas]

I already told you that you can‘t take extremely white people like Germanic/Nordic people as standard for “whiteness“. White people have a range of looks from extremely white till swarthy. Besides here the reconstructed statue of the Italic Roman emperor Augustus based on the original pigment remains on the marble. Nonone on his right mind would deny that the depicted man on the sculpture was white just because he was of Italic than Nordic stock. http://www.tarragonaturisme.cat/experience/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/August.jpg

Ancient Romans on the busts resembled more Northern Europeans than Asheknazi Jews. Askenazi Jews have their distinctive “Jewish“ look even when they are blond and blue eyed.

Augustus reconstruction looks like Zuckerberg lol.

https://i.redd.it/4jvqshh0zg521.jpg

[Karol Klačansky]

When you read what traditional Romans thought about being flooded with foreign people, their fear to lose their identity and "Romaness", you would think you are reading modern conservative criticism on mass- immigration. Tacitus and Cicero wrote many things about Jews that today would be considered antisemitic. Juvenal was complaining about the Greek(also Syrian) migrants and didn't even consider many of them to be proper Greeks. Many genetics studies are being used to promote and push diversity and multiculturalism. However what these studies don't tell is that people back then whether Romans, Greeks, Celts, Germanics, Phoenicians or Jews were tribalistic and ethnocentric to the bones. Hence conflicts and ethnic tensions were programmed. For example in Alexandria there was lots of ethnic tension between Greeks and Jews that ended in revolts. The Romans that ruled in Egypt preferred the Greeks over the native Egyptians, because for them the Greeks were more like them, etc.



Tacitus doesn’t just demonize the Jews for rejecting Roman religion; he also targets them as a “race” that is “hateful to the gods,” laying the groundwork for an anti-Semitism that consistently conflates race and faith. Moreover, his screed against the Jewish people resounds with some painfully familiar anti-Semitic stereotypes.


Despite his assertion that Jews are essentially eternal foreigners who want to be left alone, Tacitus feeds on a common Roman fear that foreigners will grow to outnumber “true” Roman citizens by asserting that Jews
“…take thought to increase their numbers; for they regard it as a crime to kill any late-born child, and they believe that the souls of those who are killed in battle or by the executioner are immortal: hence comes their passion for begetting children and their scorn of death.”

https://www.publicmedievalist.com/anti-semitism-older-think/I'm sure the original Romans were worried about Rome becoming less Roman and tribalism and racism has always existed, the Romans had zero reason to be immune to this. Doesn't change the fact that all modern Italians show up as having this east med ancestry so obviously it ended up being part of the genetic make up of Italy. Although it's much less in Northern Italy. So what? im sure the bulk of this ancestry was from Aegean type Greeks with some influences from the the Levant and North Africa, that makes modern Italians even more Roman as they beir the genetic signiture of the Roman empire in them. Obviously these weren't Muslim Arabs and modern Italians are nothing like middle eastern and have a complete different culture.

Sent from my ANE-LX1 using Tapatalk

[Karol Klačansky]

Augustus reconstruction looks like Zuckerberg lol.

https://i.redd.it/4jvqshh0zg521.jpgWhy did they give him that complexion?

Sent from my ANE-LX1 using Tapatalk

[Pine]

There are clearly significant differences between eastern and western Ashkenazi.

There aren't. Just a random outcome of so few samples.

[Pine]

Plenty of Ashkenazi Jews don't look like a Jewish caricature.
http://www.zam.it/images/5333/2.jpg

While your statement is true, few look like Kirk Douglas.

[Pine]

Yes, I know, which is why it's not actually showing average Ashkenazi as 6% North African. I mean you could also model Ashkenazi as 90% Mycenaean.

The fit statistic would be terrible and I haven't even checked if 90% is accurate.

edit: Of course, you were lying:

penalty = 0.001

"sample": "Ashkenazi_Jew:Average",
"fit": 3.9257,
"GRC_Mycenaean": 55.83,
"Levant_LBN_Roman": 44.17,

"sample": "Ashkenazi_Jew:Average",
"fit": 1.3921,
"Levant_LBN_Roman": 53.33,
"DEU_MA": 22.5,
"GRC_Mycenaean": 20,
"CZE_Early_Slav": 4.17,

"sample": "Ashkenazi_Jew:Average",
"fit": 1.4722,
"Levant_LBN_Roman": 45.83,
"GRC_Mycenaean": 25,
"CZE_Early_Slav": 24.17,
"Berber_Tunisia_Chen": 5,

penalty = 0

"sample": "Ashkenazi_Jew:Average",
"fit": 3.9253,
"GRC_Mycenaean": 55,
"Levant_LBN_Roman": 45,

"sample": "Ashkenazi_Jew:Average",
"fit": 1.2604,
"Levant_LBN_Roman": 52.5,
"DEU_MA": 21.67,
"GRC_Mycenaean": 20,
"CZE_Early_Slav": 5.83,

"sample": "Ashkenazi_Jew:Average",
"fit": 1.4094,
"Levant_LBN_Roman": 45,
"CZE_Early_Slav": 25.83,
"GRC_Mycenaean": 22.5,
"Berber_Tunisia_Chen": 6.67,

Looks like you have a healthy amount of Semitic blood, Smeagol. Stop worrying about it, though. The huwhite ethnostate isn't coming anyway.

[Smeagol]

Why did they give him that complexion?

Sent from my ANE-LX1 using Tapatalk

The blue eyes are mentioned in Suetonius, but he described his skin as between dark and fair.

[Smeagol]

There aren't. Just a random outcome of so few samples.

If East Ashkenazi have 10% East Euro that isn't present in West Ashkenazi, I would say that's a significant difference.

[Pine]

If East Ashkenazi have 10% East Euro that isn't present in West Ashkenazi, I would say that's a significant difference.

There isn't a 10% difference. I just told you that.

[Smeagol]

While your statement is true, few look like Kirk Douglas.

Yes, although I've never seen any Jew in real life that looked like something from Der Stürmer either.

[Pine]

Yes, although I've never seen any Jew in real life that looked like something from Der Stürmer either.

One true statement from you. Now, go look at the how much Mycenaean Ashkenazim can be modeled as. It's in my previous reply. It's not 90%; it's about half.

[Smeagol]

There isn't a 10% difference. I just told you that.

Are you saying west Ashkenazi have East Euro ancestry too?

[Smeagol]

One true statement from you. Now, go look at the how much Mycenaean Ashkenazim can be modeled as. It's in my previous reply. It's not 90%; it's about half.

Some Jew on another forum said you could, so if I was wrong, I wasn't lying about it.

[Pine]

Are you saying west Ashkenazi have East Euro ancestry too?

Yes and the difference isn't that large, and differences vary a lot in either direction per sample. I'm fully Eastern. Have you seen my results? My sibling also has the lowest Ashkenazi Baltic K13 score on record.

[Pine]

Some Jew on another forum said you could, so if I was wrong, I wasn't lying about it.

Well, if a Jew said it.

[Smeagol]

Yes and the difference isn't that large, and differences vary a lot in either direction per sample. I'm fully Eastern. Have you seen my results? My sibling also has the lowest Ashkenazi Baltic K13 score on record.

Yes, I've seen your results but why are west Ashkenazi part East Euro too? Are they descended from Polish Jews.

[Pine]

Yes, I've seen your results but why are west Ashkenazi part East Euro too? Are they descended from Polish Jews.

Back migration. Some say that majority of their descent is the result of back migration from Eastern Europe, but I haven't checked the exact numbers.

[Smeagol]

Looks like you have a healthy amount of Semitic blood, Smeagol. Stop worrying about it, though. The huwhite ethnostate isn't coming anyway.

I think it's inevitable, but if the Nuremberg Laws were brought back, I'd be fine as a second degree mischling. There were some restrictions for those who didn't receive a Deutschblütigkeitserklärung but that's only fair when dealing with tainted blood.

[Smeagol]

Back migration. Some say that majority of their descent is the result of back migration from Eastern Europe, but I haven't checked the exact numbers.

French Jews have this too?

[Kamal900]

The fit statistic would be terrible and I haven't even checked if 90% is accurate.

edit: Of course, you were lying:

penalty = 0.001

"sample": "Ashkenazi_Jew:Average",
"fit": 3.9257,
"GRC_Mycenaean": 55.83,
"Levant_LBN_Roman": 44.17,

"sample": "Ashkenazi_Jew:Average",
"fit": 1.3921,
"Levant_LBN_Roman": 53.33,
"DEU_MA": 22.5,
"GRC_Mycenaean": 20,
"CZE_Early_Slav": 4.17,

"sample": "Ashkenazi_Jew:Average",
"fit": 1.4722,
"Levant_LBN_Roman": 45.83,
"GRC_Mycenaean": 25,
"CZE_Early_Slav": 24.17,
"Berber_Tunisia_Chen": 5,

penalty = 0

"sample": "Ashkenazi_Jew:Average",
"fit": 3.9253,
"GRC_Mycenaean": 55,
"Levant_LBN_Roman": 45,

"sample": "Ashkenazi_Jew:Average",
"fit": 1.2604,
"Levant_LBN_Roman": 52.5,
"DEU_MA": 21.67,
"GRC_Mycenaean": 20,
"CZE_Early_Slav": 5.83,

"sample": "Ashkenazi_Jew:Average",
"fit": 1.4094,
"Levant_LBN_Roman": 45,
"CZE_Early_Slav": 25.83,
"GRC_Mycenaean": 22.5,
"Berber_Tunisia_Chen": 6.67,

Looks like you have a healthy amount of Semitic blood, Smeagol. Stop worrying about it, though. The huwhite ethnostate isn't coming anyway.

Well, it's better to add the recent Roman samples since they fit better than using the Greek Mycenaean samples which strongly indicates that western Jews got most of their Euro ancestry from the Italians rather than from the Greeks here:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14484-Could-Western-Jews-(Ash-and-Seph-)-descend-from-Aegeans-and-Levantine-admixture&p=621108&viewfull=1#post621108
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14484-Could-Western-Jews-(Ash-and-Seph-)-descend-from-Aegeans-and-Levantine-admixture&p=621108&viewfull=1#post621108
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14484-Could-Western-Jews-(Ash-and-Seph-)-descend-from-Aegeans-and-Levantine-admixture/page838&p=620658#post620658

Palestinian average Muslim results using only scaled ancient averaged samples:

"sample": "Test1:Palestinian",
"fit": 1.2827,
"Levant_Canaanite_MBA": 61.67,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 17.5,
"Canary_Islands_Guanche": 6.67,
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara": 6.67,
"TZA_Pemba_600BP": 4.17,
"ARM_LBA": 3.33,
"IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA": 0,

Palestinian average Christian results:

"sample": "Test1:Palestinian_Beit_Sahour",
"fit": 2.6,
"Levant_Canaanite_MBA": 85,
"ARM_LBA": 10.83,
"Yamnaya_RUS_Samara": 2.5,
"Canary_Islands_Guanche": 1.67,
"IRN_Hajji_Firuz_BA": 0,
"Levant_JOR_EBA": 0,
"TZA_Pemba_600BP": 0,

Now, using modern averaged samples for Palestinian Muslims I should get the following results:

"sample": "Test1:Palestinian",
"fit": 1.5258,
"Samaritan": 47.5,
"Iranian_Zoroastrian": 20,
"Egyptian": 15,
"BedouinB": 14.17,
"Dinka": 3.33,

Palestinian Christians cluster the closets to the Lebanese Christians and Samaritans, and using any modern averaged samples other than these two would ruin the fit entirely.

In other words, The Canaanite ancestry of Ashekanazi Jews are on the same level as Palestinian Muslims, and the Christians and the Samaritans of the Levant are genetically predominately Canaanites.

[Imperator Biff]

Yes they were, until they started importing slaves and (((merchants))). Those imperial samples did not come from what we would now consider ‘huwhyte’ people.
By the Middle Ages the imperial signal became diluted but it’s still clearly there, just in varying degrees depending on the region.
Modern laziali score around 40-50%, Calabrians and Campanians closer to 80%.

[savvas]

Yes they were, until they started importing slaves and (((merchants))). Those imperial samples did not come from what we would now consider ‘huwhyte’ people.
By the Middle Ages the imperial signal became diluted but it’s still clearly there, just in varying degrees depending on the region.
Modern laziali score around 40-50%, Calabrians and Campanians closer to 80%.

https://i.imgur.com/tMw0C2M.png

[Samnium]

Yes they were, until they started importing slaves and (((merchants))). Those imperial samples did not come from what we would now consider ‘huwhyte’ people.
By the Middle Ages the imperial signal became diluted but it’s still clearly there, just in varying degrees depending on the region.
Modern laziali score around 40-50%, Calabrians and Campanians closer to 80%.

The G25 references for S.Italy aren't really reliable.

The calabrian average is made up of two persons and coming from the same area...

[Imperator Biff]

https://i.imgur.com/tMw0C2M.png

LOL

[Crimson Winds]

You guys know the term "Europe" is created by Ancient Greeks?

[J. Ketch]

You guys know the term "Europe" is created by Ancient Greeks?
Most names of countries/nations/ethnicities are given by outsiders.

[Crimson Winds]

Most names of countries/nations/ethnicities are given by outsiders.

not in that case

[renaissance12]

Double

[Samnium]

Most names of countries/nations/ethnicities are given by outsiders.

Well without Ancient Greece and the subsequent Ancient Rome civilization there is no Western civilization.

You can argue that Ancient Greeks were outsiders for Europe, I still think that's ridiculous and projecting modern fantasies over a pluri-millenar civilization.

[Leto]

Well without Ancient Greece and the subsequent Ancient Rome civilization there is no Western civilization.

You can argue that Ancient Greeks were outsiders for Europe, I still think that's ridiculous and projecting modern fantasies over a pluri-millenar civilization.
He will prolly tell you "the Ottomanz mongrelized the Greekz", so they are Greek in name only. Many New World right-wingers think so, unfortunately.

[J. Ketch]

Well without Ancient Greece and the subsequent Ancient Rome civilization there is no Western civilization.

You can argue that Ancient Greeks were outsiders for Europe, I still think that's ridiculous and projecting modern fantasies over a pluri-millenar civilization.
I don't believe in a singular 'Western Civilisation', in space or in time.

I didn't say that ancient Greece or Rome weren't European civilisations, but they certainly didn't see themselves as the same as the 'barbarians' to the North, which was nearly all of Europe.


He will prolly tell you "the Ottomanz mongrelized the Greekz", so they are Greek in name only. Many New World right-wingers think so, unfortunately.
Why are you so desperate to refute the MENA admixture in Southern Europe? It shouldn't be a problem for you with your Middle Eastern desert cult worship.

[Leto]

It shouldn't be a problem for you with your Middle Eastern desert cult worship.
Very low IQ Varg level :picard1: The West is unthinkable without Christianity. You can LARP as a Celtic forest dweller as much as you want. I don't care. I only know my ancestors were practically nothing before we accepted Christ in the late 10th century. Your culture has been Christian for like 1,500-1,400 years too. Go ahead and deny it. I have nothing to do with you alt-retards, we're not in the same movement at all.

You are right, it is not a problem for me at all, I am not even from Greece or Italy and most importanly GOD has no ethnicity. In the Gospel Jesus Christ said "even before there was Abraham, I AM".

[Kamal900]

Very low IQ Varg level :picard1: The West is unthinkable without Christianity. You can LARP as a Celtic forest dweller as much as you want. I don't care. I only know my ancestors were practically nothing before we accepted Christ in the late 10th century. Your culture has been Christian for like 1,500-1,400 years too. Go ahead and deny it. I have nothing to do with you alt-retards, we're not in the same movement at all.

You are right, it is not a problem for me at all, I am not even from Greece or Italy and most importanly GOD has no ethnicity. In the Gospel Jesus Christ said "even before there was Abraham, I AM".

Tell that to the idiots like MinervaItalica who completely denies that Southern Italians have any MENA admixture and etc.

[SharpFork]

How MENA are Greeks exactly?

[Leto]

Tell that to the idiots like MinervaItalica who completely denies that Southern Italians have any MENA admixture and etc.
Well, I don't have a dog in this fight. Sure, Southern Italians are strongly Middle Eastern-influenced, why should it be a huge controversy? Sicily is very close to North Africa geographically. I have no problem with Middle Eastern DNA per se, Islam is one thing, ancestry is another one. Farming is said to have come to Europe from the Middle East, so what? Should Europeans abandon it now because it emerged elsewhere? The Middle East is home to the oldest civilizations, only a deluded person would deny that.

[Kamal900]

Well, I don't have a dog in this fight. Sure, Southern Italians are strongly Middle Eastern-influenced, why should it be a huge controversy? Sicily is very close to North Africa geographically. I have no problem with Middle Eastern DNA per se, Islam is one thing, ancestry is another one. Farming is said to have come to Europe from the Middle East, so what? Should Europeans abandon it now because it emerged elsewhere? The Middle East is home to the oldest civilizations, only a deluded person would deny that.

I don't know either myself. I just stated the facts about them, and then Italian members like that guy calls me biased and start throwing racial slurs at me. I don't know why they're that sensitive about that other than due to inferiority complex. Seriously.

[Leto]

I don't know either myself. I just stated the facts about them, and then Italian members like that guy calls me biased and start throwing racial slurs at me. I don't know why they're that sensitive about that other than due to inferiority complex. Seriously.
He doesn't know much (if anything) about genetics by his own admission, so I wouldn't engage with him regardig this topic. He is also a LARPer.

[Karol Klačansky]

Very low IQ Varg level :picard1: The West is unthinkable without Christianity. You can LARP as a Celtic forest dweller as much as you want. I don't care. I only know my ancestors were practically nothing before we accepted Christ in the late 10th century. Your culture has been Christian for like 1,500-1,400 years too. Go ahead and deny it. I have nothing to do with you alt-retards, we're not in the same movement at all.

You are right, it is not a problem for me at all, I am not even from Greece or Italy and most importanly GOD has no ethnicity. In the Gospel Jesus Christ said "even before there was Abraham, I AM".Completely agree

Sent from my ANE-LX1 using Tapatalk

[Insuperable]

Why are you so desperate to refute the MENA admixture in Southern Europe? It shouldn't be a problem for you with your Middle Eastern desert cult worship.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AwkwRQGbxyo

[Karol Klačansky]

Most names of countries/nations/ethnicities are given by outsiders.

if Italians and Greeks arent European then none of us are.

[Jana]

I agree too. When my people ethnogenesis was completed (medieval) and we became what we are today, Slavic-Med mix, we were already Christian and Catholic.
Christianity makes lot of sense to me from moral point of view. I see lot of beauty and logic in Jesus teachings.

Europe on peak of it's power was strongly Christian. With it came architecture, laws, medicine, education, literacy, music.. (I love when libtards forget first European Univeristies were founded by Church)
I can recognize bad things that happened in Europe due to church rivalries and backwardness (30 years wars, illiterate masses, witchhunting, degenerate popes, crusades,...), but I also recognize that it has done many good thing for Europe and Europeans and it is part of our heritage, here at least.

Many of my family members were schooled and cared for by church when nobody else cared.

And Europe has weakened when we started abandoning Christianity without replacing it with anything of value.
Btw I also very much respect and have interest in Pagan traditions of our Slavic ancestors (and Illyrian), I just feel detached from them and it's not like Pagans contributed to European civilisation nearly as much. It was mistake church tried to supress this past, that I don't agree with. Irish are one of people who didn't forget their pagan past and still became Christian.

Now they are not Catholic anymore, and Ireland is going down the drain, rich and not much else, on brink of being replaced with immigrants in future as any other liberal western european country.

[Dna8]

If I understand the community's interpretation of the recent Ancient Roman Study provided us by influential member, Samnium, the Romans were akin to South West Europeans?

In other words, they were Mediterranids?

Kindest regards,

Dna8

[MustafaTekin]

https://i.imgur.com/lw7F2Sx.jpg

[Samnium]

I don't know either myself. I just stated the facts about them, and then Italian members like that guy calls me biased and start throwing racial slurs at me. I don't know why they're that sensitive about that other than due to inferiority complex. Seriously.

Well I don't deny that, just you can't throw it and say that all S.Italy is the same by going with averages made up of 2 samples or 10 samples. There is enough genetic varibility, isolation and diversity to understand that's not true at all.

Remind that the G25 average for Calabria is made up of 2 samples, Apulia maybe 10 samples, that's all, we don't even know if they come all from the same area...

[Leto]

Well I don't deny that, just you can't throw it and say that all S.Italy is the same by going with averages made up of 2 samples or 10 samples. There is enough genetic varibility, isolation and diversity to understand that's not true at all.

Remind that the G25 average for Calabria is made up of 2 samples, Apulia maybe 10 samples, that's all, we don't even know if they come all from the same area...
Sikeliot posted probably a hundred various GEDmatch results from Sicily and Southern Italy. Those threads are still there.

[Kamal900]

Well I don't deny that, just you can't throw it and say that all S.Italy is the same by going with averages made up of 2 samples or 10 samples. There is enough genetic varibility, isolation and diversity to understand that's not true at all.

I know that, yes. But in general, they do have significant west asian admixture which varies from one region to the next. I mean, Campanians for example don't have any Levantine or Berber ancestry, but their CHG ancestry is pretty significant in the country and etc. You even told me that the northern peoples of the region of Calebria are genetically very Italic in contrast to the southern part of the region where there had been migrants to the area from the east during the Byzantine period of Italy. My point to the whole thing is that Italians themselves shouldn't give a flying shit on what other Europeans think of them and their ancestry and be more like the Greeks than anything. I mean, again, the middle east is considered to be the birth place of human civilization, so there's no shame in having some of their ancestry in your genepool, you know?

[Leto]

If I understand the community's interpretation of the recent Ancient Roman Study provided us by influential member, Samnium, the Romans were akin to South West Europeans?

In other words, they were Mediterranids?

Kindest regards,

Dna8
Lol. He is a resident Roman here, isn't he?

[Jana]

https://i.imgur.com/lw7F2Sx.jpg

Most of great scientists and greatest minds were belivers.

[Samnium]

Sikeliot posted probably a hundred various GEDmatch results from Sicily and Southern Italy. Those threads are still there.

70% are from Sicilia though, Sikeliot had a lot of sicilian results but very few from other regions. He had some southern calabrians maybe, that's all.

[Dna8]

Lol. He is a resident Roman here, isn't he?

I should have written, "akin to SW Europeans + Central/Northern Italians"?

[Leto]

Most of great scientists and greatest minds were belivers.
And they were certainly not from Turkey :D

[Kamal900]

70% are from Sicilia though, Sikeliot had a lot of sicilian results but very few from other regions. He had some southern calabrians maybe, that's all.

He also has a lot of Maltese results as well.

[Samnium]

I know that, yes. But in general, they do have significant west asian admixture which varies from one region to the next. I mean, Campanians for example don't have any Levantine or Berber ancestry, but their CHG ancestry is pretty significant in the country and etc.?

Campanians are more Caucasus shifted than anything I guess but we need more samples and accurate, large and extensive studies to assert that.


You even told me that the northern peoples of the region of Calebria are genetically very Italic in contrast to the southern part of the region where there had been migrants to the area from the east during the Byzantine period of Italy.

Well S.Calabria isn't made up of migrants of West Asia, there was a very strong input that drift them south of the South_Italian reference in gedmatch. I believe that the region is outlying but not uniformly.


My point to the whole thing is that Italians themselves shouldn't give a flying shit on what other Europeans think of them and their ancestry and be more like the Greeks than anything. I mean, again, the middle east is considered to be the birth place of human civilization, so there's no shame in having some of their ancestry in your genepool, you know?

People in the real life, in Italy atleast, don't care that much about these things. One of the evidences of that is that DNA testings are not well-known and very few italian people have taken this test or are interested by genetics.

[Karol Klačansky]

I agree too. When my people ethnogenesis was completed (medieval) and we became what we are today, Slavic-Med mix, we were already Christian and Catholic.
Christianity makes lot of sense to me from moral point of view. I see lot of beauty and logic in Jesus teachings.

Europe on peak of it's power was strongly Christian. With it came architecture, laws, medicine, education, literacy, music.. (I love when libtards forget first European Univeristies were founded by Church)
I can recognize bad things that happened in Europe due to church rivalries and backwardness (30 years wars, illiterate masses, witchhunting, degenerate popes, crusades,...), but I also recognize that it has done many good thing for Europe and Europeans and it is part of our heritage, here at least.

Many of my family members were schooled and cared for by church when nobody else cared.

And Europe has weakened when we started abandoning Christianity without replacing it with anything of value.
Btw I also very much respect and have interest in Pagan traditions of our Slavic ancestors (and Illyrian), I just feel detached from them and it's not like Pagans contributed to European civilisation nearly as much. It was mistake church tried to supress this past, that I don't agree with. Irish are one of people who didn't forget their pagan past and still became Christian.

Now they are not Catholic anymore, and Ireland is going down the drain, rich and not much else, on brink of being replaced with immigrants in future as any other liberal western european country.

Of course the Church isnt perfect and has made many mistakes in history, but much of whats said about the bad things the church did in the past is pure legend. There were bad events of course, but everyone seems to forget that the crusades were started as a response to aggressive Islam, and it was the native Christians in the middle east who were writing the pope and king of France asking for help. Same with the inquisition in spain which was way more tolerant than any european government of the time. Witch hunting is also a bit exaggerated in modern times and was most common in protestant Germany, but what you wrote was nice and I agree with that.

[Karol Klačansky]

https://i.imgur.com/lw7F2Sx.jpg

Science explains how everything works, not why it works that way or whats the purpose of life. Only a simpleton cant grasp that.

[J. Ketch]

Very low IQ Varg level :picard1: The West is unthinkable without Christianity. You can LARP as a Celtic forest dweller as much as you want. I don't care. I only know my ancestors were practically nothing before we accepted Christ in the late 10th century. Your culture has been Christian for like 1,500-1,400 years too. Go ahead and deny it. I have nothing to do with you alt-retards, we're not in the same movement at all.

You are right, it is not a problem for me at all, I am not even from Greece or Italy and most importanly GOD has no ethnicity. In the Gospel Jesus Christ said "even before there was Abraham, I AM".
I'm pro the White European race, that which has spanned ancient pagan Europe (inc. Greece & Rome), Medieval Christian Europe, and modern post Christian Europe. If you believe the Slavs are nothing without Jewish fairy tales I'm not going to argue with you, but it's a strange position for a self-proclaimed White Nationalist as you are.

[Leto]

I'm pro the White European race, that which has spanned ancient pagan Europe (inc. Greece & Rome), Medieval Christian Europe, and modern post Christian Europe. If you believe the Slavs are nothing without Jewish fairy tales I'm not going to argue with you, but it's a strange position for a self-proclaimed White Nationalist as you are.
You are pro white, yet you exclude half of Europe from your definition of whiteness. I am not a white nationalist, I'm a (Orthodox - believe me it is a whole different thing, not the kind of Christianity you see in American-style megachurches) Christian supremacist but this kind of supremacism is inclusive, not exclusive i.e. anyone can join who is sincere. I'm also a staunch social conservative and anti-globalist and generally support the nation state. Possibly a monarchist (some say Orthodoxy is the most compatible with monarchy), I have not decided yet, plus I'm realistic and don't want to LARP and live in a fantasy world.

I don't think you or anyone else here cares about me and what I personally believe in, so let's discontinue this pointless conversation.

[MustafaTekin]

Most of great scientists and greatest minds were belivers.

Looking for logic in religion is like looking for a virgin girl in brothel. you believe or you don't believe, critical thinking is not allowed in religion.

that being said; i'm not against freedom of religion. i just think it's stupid.

[J. Ketch]

You are pro white, yet you exclude half of Europe from your definition of whiteness.
Wrong, but so what if I did? I don't wish ill on other parts/peoples of Europe (as many toxic people on this forum do), I just don't care about or identify with them. I've never objected to Southern Europeans being called White, it's not something I care about. Being an autistic humourless Russian you misinterpret my half-jest as some kind of strident ideological manifesto.



I don't think you or anyone else here cares about me and what I personally believe in, so let's discontinue this pointless conversation.
OK.

[Theudelinde]

This is a ridiculous definition.

Ashkenazi anyway aren't Middle-Easterners so I don't know where is your point.

At least most Ashkenazi Jews look European rather ME.

[renaissance12]

Ancient and early Roman's were European and white, imperial Roman's were east med/Levantine so just depends what you classify as white. They for sure weren't Scandinavian or Sub-Saharan African [emoji23]

Sent from my ANE-LX1 using Tapatalk

Scandinavians and S.S.A had Nothing to do with Europe.......Scandinavians were distant half cousins of germanics and half asiatic mongoloids .....Both had Zero Impact About European Culture ........To Me Marvel Fantasy Comics It Is Only Low Level Nordic Fantasy.

[renaissance12]

I don't believe in a singular 'Western Civilisation', in space or in time.

I didn't say that ancient Greece or Rome weren't European civilisations, but they certainly didn't see themselves as the same as the 'barbarians' to the North, which was nearly all of Europe.


Why are you so desperate to refute the MENA admixture in Southern Europe? It shouldn't be a problem for you with your Middle Eastern desert cult worship.You Are Idiot There Was No Germans In Europe 3.500 Years Ago.....Please Go To Spend Your Time Reading Marvel Comics

[JamesBond007]

Science explains how everything works, not why it works that way or whats the purpose of life. Only a simpleton cant grasp that.

Science explains how everything works and philosophy deals with what is the purpose of life etc... religion is for illogical simpletons and religion is man made hogwash.

[Token]

Very low IQ Varg level :picard1: The West is unthinkable without Christianity. You can LARP as a Celtic forest dweller as much as you want. I don't care. I only know my ancestors were practically nothing before we accepted Christ in the late 10th century. Your culture has been Christian for like 1,500-1,400 years too. Go ahead and deny it. I have nothing to do with you alt-retards, we're not in the same movement at all.

You are right, it is not a problem for me at all, I am not even from Greece or Italy and most importanly GOD has no ethnicity. In the Gospel Jesus Christ said "even before there was Abraham, I AM".
Israelites are God's chosen people and that is written in your holy book. You and your people are second tier for Jehovah and by accepting him, you accept this subservient role.

[Roy]

But Ashkenazi Jews are white so why them being closer to them would render them not white?

[Samnium]

But Ashkenazi Jews are white so why them being closer to them would render them not white?

Don't discuss with this troll, he only likes controversies and scandals.

[Leto]

Israelites are God's chosen people and that is written in your holy book. You and your people are second tier for Jehovah and by accepting him, you accept this subservient role.
Yes, they were before the coming of Christ. Not anymore. And by the way, weren't you a self-described Lutheran?

[Leto]

But Ashkenazi Jews are white so why them being closer to them would render them not white?
The whiteness of the Jews is highly disputable, including by Jews themselves. There's even a song "I'm not white, I'm Jewish".

A Jewish perspective for example:
https://youtu.be/7vHtQe-3uJ4

[Pine]

The whiteness of the Jews is highly disputable, including by Jews themselves. There's even a song "I'm not white, I'm Jewish".

A Jewish perspective for example:
https://youtu.be/7vHtQe-3uJ4

That song is like Barbara Spector - the only reason I know about it is because I like to listen to alt-right autism. It's a rap song made by some unknown dude. You either think there are 5 Jews out there or that Jews are an organized hive mind in order to take this seriously. As for the video, you're again reaching for your conclusion. I've seen his videos before. It's not a social perspective, but a historical and a biological one. As for the social one, I've demonstrated before with statistics that effectively all American Ashkenazi Jews identify as white, even when "other" is an option. The dude's videos are there for two reasons: 1. Jewish genealogy/history 2. If there is an agenda, it's not one for race relations, but to dispel the anti-Zionist myth that Jews are colonizers of Israel.

Regarding that "I'm not white, I'm Jewish" song, there are more Jews who believe in Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, Celtic Paganism and Otherkin (per category, not in total) than are aware of that song. It was made by some youtube rapper in 2016. If you can't figure out why a rapper tries to identify himself as nonwhite, then you're an idiot. It only has 40k views and all the comments are from anti-Semites. Jews don't listen to this. You do.

[ninjaboy]

Israelites are God's chosen people and that is written in your holy book. You and your people are second tier for Jehovah and by accepting him, you accept this subservient role.

You are dead wrong, dude. You obviously never read the New Testament. Christians are the Chosen people and are Children of God by faith in Christ. Keep in mind not Christianity but atheism, liberalism and feminism are destroying Europe and it's identity. I don't understand why Neo-pagans and atheistic alt right blame Chritianity for the mess and destruction that the antichristian left is creating all over the Western world.

[ninjaboy]

Of course the Church isnt perfect and has made many mistakes in history, but much of whats said about the bad things the church did in the past is pure legend. There were bad events of course, but everyone seems to forget that the crusades were started as a response to aggressive Islam, and it was the native Christians in the middle east who were writing the pope and king of France asking for help. Same with the inquisition in spain which was way more tolerant than any european government of the time. Witch hunting is also a bit exaggerated in modern times and was most common in protestant Germany, but what you wrote was nice and I agree with that.

When Europeans were Christians men were men and females were females. The Church taught Europeans self-restrain, discipline, the sense of duty and responsibility and viewing children as a blessing. Therefore Europeans were having kids instead to genocide entire future generations with abortions like today. It's crazy how liberal progressives and feminists whine and complain about the killing of witches in medieval times while celebrating mass abortions where millions of, tons of white babies are being butchered by their heartless mothers who just want to fornicate without consequences. In the USA alone about 50-60 millions babies, mostly white ones were slaughtered and removed forever fom the genepool. So feminists and liberal progressives are responsible for the annihilation of Europeans, white people and not the Church despite all the scandals, inquisitions and persecutions.

[renaissance12]

I don't know either myself. I just stated the facts about them, and then Italian members like that guy calls me biased and start throwing racial slurs at me. I don't know why they're that sensitive about that other than due to inferiority complex. Seriously.
It Is Evident That At Least 10% Of Italians Have Mena Influence..........A Relation With Ancient Islamic Great Thinker Is Not Bad.

[Renekton]

Of course no question about that

Στάλθηκε από το LLD-L31 μου χρησιμοποιώντας Tapatalk

[Samnium]

Of course no question about that

Στάλθηκε από το LLD-L31 μου χρησιμοποιώντας Tapatalk

No they were closer to Ashkenazi than to Icelandic people therefore they aren't white.

[Token]

Interesting how Etruscans are very similar to present-day North Italians. Some people forget that, before the Gauls, Northern Italy was mostly inhabited by Etruscan-related people.
It suggests North Italians clustered roughly as they do today since pre-Gaulish times. Imperial Roman admixture probably shifted them south, but that was counterbalanced by Gaulish and Germanic admixture and they ended up returning to where they were.

[MinervaItalica]

"White" is such a modern term anyway. It didn't exist back then. Surely they were Caucasians though.

[Token]

"White" is such a modern term anyway. It didn't exist back then. Surely they were Caucasians though.

I doubt they were from the Caucasus.

[MinervaItalica]

I doubt they were from the Caucasus.

Where do you think the Latin tribe migrated from?

[Token]

Where do you think the Latin tribe migrated from?
Probably from somewhere north of the Alps, because that is the only way to explain Italo-Celtic closeness.

[MinervaItalica]

Probably from somewhere north of the Alps, because that is the only way to explain Italo-Celtic closeness.

From more or less present day Hungary according to some and from Moravia according to others but like other Indo-Europeans they originated from Caucasus. Obviously they didn't jump from Caucasus to Italy.


According to David W. Anthony, proto-Latins originated in today's eastern Hungary, kurganized around 3100 BCE by the Yamnaya culture,[205] while Kristian Kristiansen associated the Proto-Villanovans with the Velatice-Baierdorf culture of Moravia and Austria

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_migrations#Italic_and_Celtic

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/IE_expansion.png


The mainstream scenario for the migration of the Indo-European peoples in the period 4000–1000 BC. Known as the Kurgan hypothesis, the scenario envisages the IE peoples migrating outwards from an original homeland in the steppe of southern Russia, North of the Caucasus mountains (purple zone). The red zone indicates the possible extent of IE expansion by c. 2500 BC, the orange zone by c. 1000 BC. Note the movement of the Italic branch from the secondary zone (around Moravia) into the Italian peninsula

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latins_(Italic_tribe)

[Token]

From more or less present day Hungary according to some and from Moravia according to others but like other Indo-Europeans they originated from Caucasus. Obviously they didn't jump from Caucasus to Italy.

David Anthony abandoned this view after Bell Beaker DNA. Etruscans are the ones that seems to have came from the east since they show some Balkan-related admixture.

Indo-Europeans originated in the Russian Volga-Kama steppe far to the north of the Caucasus.

[pulstar]

If you answered yourself this question why making a thread?

[renaissance12]

Interesting how Etruscans are very similar to present-day North Italians. Some people forget that, before the Gauls, Northern Italy was mostly inhabited by Etruscan-related people.
It suggests North Italians clustered roughly as they do today since pre-Gaulish times. Imperial Roman admixture probably shifted them south, but that was counterbalanced by Gaulish and Germanic admixture and they ended up returning to where they were.

In Triveneto ( Veneto Trentino~Altoadige Friuli) There Werw Venetic and Rhaetian PeopLe .......No Etruscans

[Duffmannn]

Many north italians are not white so.

[Dna8]

I haven't made formal comment yet regarding what, Samnium's, thread about that genetic study of ancient Romans, clearly confirms, in terms of aesthetics.

But, it is (and has always been) clear that the ancient Romans, whether soldiers or senators or farmers, were swarthy Southern Europeans.

Kindest regards,

Dna8

[guezet]

https://i.imgur.com/jt9HfCu.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/a7Sm6ns.jpg

[sean]

Ancient Romans are very genetically distinct from NW Europeans, Iron Age Romans are genetically closest to people from Tuscany, so if modern day Central Italians aren't white then the Romans aren't either.

Romans integrated and assimilated anyone and everyone, from the lowest jews and arabs to straight up negroes from Ethiopia (although ancient Greeks did distinguish between real, civilised Ethiopians in the east (which in all fairness they did say were connected to ancient Egypt), and their most primitive, animal-like "Ethiopian" neighbours. Ancient Romans on the other hand called all blacks "Ethiopians").

Whiteness did not matter nearly as much to them as the submission to Rome as an idea and a nation-state. They should have kept their iron grip on Italian Peninsula and the rest should have been treated as the subjugated people they were, in trying to make everyone Roman, the term lost its meaning.

[NSXD60]

Romans were closely linked to Celts before entering Italy, their languages being dialects of each other, both having steppe ancestry, Romans heading towards the populous south, Celts the sparsely settled west, Romans preserving their language better, less well their race, and Celts greatly altering their language, but maintaining their PIE genotype to a large extent. Nothing new here, but the general consensus since the beginning of the 20th century, no Dna required, just eyeballs. Of course one has to suffer wannabes (OWDs), and self haters spewing nonsense about PIEs being robust Meds, when they both should be taking robust meds for delusion. Now, were PIEs originally Meds 30K years ago isolated from a lighter Med population, the latter darkened by Menas moving north to the Mediterranean after their kin migrated towards the Black Sea region? Who knows?
In other words, were these Med regions already halfway PIE in race?

[Vegtamr]

Ancient Italians were made up of the same basal populations, albeit in different proportions of admixture, as the rest of Europe. Ashkenazi Jews have ancestors from a region not shared with any European group. Thus, ancient Italians were white, and Ashkenazi Jews are not.

[Incal]

According to which standards. Nowadays "white" is a word hacked by Anglos and hence, mean UK and sorroundings.

[sailormoon]

The Southern Italian groups show a general high affinity with Anatolian and European Neolithic farmers, and cluster closely with the Chalcolithic and Bronze Age samples from Anatolian and Aegean (Minoan and Mycenaean) populations.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FXfKztIaAAA44gN?format=png

Ancient individuals are labelled and symbol-coded according to their associated culture, as reported. The position of newly-analyzed Southern Italian populations in the PCA space defined by modern individuals is indicated by the dashed gray circle.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-82591-9

[Flashball]

The Southern Italian groups show a general high affinity with Anatolian and European Neolithic farmers, and cluster closely with the Chalcolithic and Bronze Age samples from Anatolian and Aegean (Minoan and Mycenaean) populations.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FXfKztIaAAA44gN?format=png

Ancient individuals are labelled and symbol-coded according to their associated culture, as reported. The position of newly-analyzed Southern Italian populations in the PCA space defined by modern individuals is indicated by the dashed gray circle.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-82591-9

No, they have a good amount of levantine and iranian farmers admixture

And they don't clust with sardinians (high EEF, with good amount of WHG in the central area).