Orthodox vs. West: why Moslems so anti-Orthodox?

[Turxanthus]

The Moslem folks, as a result of the Afghan-Soviet war and the Yugoslav civil wars, still tend to have a more negative opinion of the Orthodox folks (Russians, Romanians, Serbs etc) compared to the Western Christians. The trend has shown some signs of change over the past decades with the US invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq, yet we cannot say that the tide turned.

However, that is a bit of an oxymoron situation. Because the Orthodox folks are more tolerant of the Moslems (and any other people) compared with the Western treatment when it comes to the treatment of people being different.

Some historical examples will help explain this situation better:

- In 1492, when Granada fell and the last Moslem state in Iberia was destroyed, the Westerners (Ferdinand and Isabella) did not allow a single Moslem. They either killed or deported every single one of the Moslems. Jews were kicked out as well in the same tumultuous turmoil.
- Russians took Kazan in 1552, they reduced Moslem Tatars into second class citizen status yet they still allowed them to exist. And Tatars (a Mongolian people speaking a Turkic language) still exist in Kazan region.

Another example would be Balkans.
See in Serbia, despite so much anti-Serb hatred in the Moslem world, today up to 10% of Serbia and the equally Orthodox Montenegro is Moslem.
However when you look at Croatia, that is Western Christian and has historically not allowed any Moslem or Orthodox folk live under her rule, a pitiless assimilation took place.


Well there are some other examples too, such as Romania and Bulgaria too. No need to mention all.
What is striking is that the Moslem world today hates Orthodoxes all the while having no problem with the Westerners. That is interesting.
By the way, it doesn't imply that Moslems must have issues with Westerners who are quite normal today, here we put the emphasis on Orthodoxes having negative reputation not on the fact that Westerners have an overrated and positive image.

[unseen]

- Russians took Kazan in 1552, they reduced Moslem Tatars into second class citizen status

What is this statement based on?

[TheMaestro]

Bobby Martnen used this term moslem, we miss uncircumcised threads.

[Turxanthus]

What is this statement based on?

Moslems not being allowed to have their temples in downtown kremlin until the end of Soviet era.

[unseen]

Moslems not being allowed to have their temples in downtown kremlin until the end of Soviet era.

What is the connection between the two statements:

1) Moslem Tatars into second class citizen status
and
2) Moslems not being allowed to have their temples in downtown kremlin?

[Turxanthus]

What is the connection between the two statements:

1) Moslem Tatars into second class citizen status
and
2) Moslems not being allowed to have their temples in downtown kremlin?

They who follow a religion that is second class in a certain state at a given era can be referred to as second class citizens. It is like migrants populations in modern era.

[Hurrem sultana]

orthodox are not considered west,i mean serbian orthodox hate the west and see it as alien to them

[unseen]

They who follow a religion that is second class in a certain state at a given era can be referred to as second class citizens. It is like migrants populations in modern era.

No less true that they may not be referred second-class citizens. You do not give any objective unambiguous prerequisites for such a conclusion.

The fact that in a fortress where the military garrison of the city is located does not open a temple of another religion, in my opinion it’s right.

By the way, for what reason do you not say anything about the constant raids of the Tatars on Russian lands? Why do not you talk about how these "second class citizens" sold the captured inhabitants of these lands into slavery?

[Oghuz]

I am muslim, I do not care about christian sects. Why are people assuming BS. Sometime ago there was a thread by a supremacist member here that why Muslims are pro western Europe. Who is ? I have yet to meet a Muslim (and I meet lots from different ethnic backgrounds) who cares about European sects and regional rivalries. Its like claiming that why are Germans pro Persians but French are pro Jordanians while Serbians are pro Shiites lol

[Turxanthus]

The rivalry between Moslems and Orthodoxes might result from the fact that they share common borders.
That can be an argument. Since sharing common borders generate more problems than not having any shared borders.


No less true that they may not be referred second-class citizens. You do not give any objective unambiguous prerequisites for such a conclusion.

The fact that in a fortress where the military garrison of the city is located does not open a temple of another religion, in my opinion it’s right.

By the way, for what reason do you not say anything about the constant raids of the Tatars on Russian lands? Why do not you talk about how these "second class citizens" sold the captured inhabitants of these lands into slavery?

That is another discussion. Were Tatars second class citizens? Yes. Those "Bulgaro-Mongols" capturing Slavs and selling them out is another subject.


I am muslim, I do not care about christian sects. Why are people assuming BS. Sometime ago there was a thread by a supremacist member here that why Muslims are pro western Europe. Who is ? I have yet to meet a Muslim (and I meet lots from different ethnic backgrounds) who cares about European sects and regional rivalries. Its like claiming that why are Germans pro Persians but French are pro Jordanians while Serbians are pro Shiites lol

They do talk and care about sects among the Moslems. Russians are fan of Syrian Alawites for example, Brits control Wahabbis etc. They do talk a lot about it, it is you who seems to be disconnected.

[Rumata]

- Russians took Kazan in 1552, they reduced Moslem Tatars into second class citizen status yet they still allowed them to exist.
Seconde class? Search the word "Tatar" in this page:
List of Russian princely families (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Russian_princely_families)


And Tatars (a Mongolian people speaking a Turkic language) still exist in Kazan region.

Afaik, those Tatars who were a Mongolian people were genocided by Genghis Khan and the name of their tribe was given to other peoples according to the Mongol custom. Volga Tatars claim Volga Bulgarian heritage.

[Turxanthus]

Seconde class? Search the word "Tatar" in this page:
List of Russian princely families (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Russian_princely_families)

Those were probably ones who, for the sake of jumping a social class, changed their faith. There are plenty of Christian Tatars.
We talk about Moslem ones. They were second class people. Yet Russians still allowed them to exist.



Afaik, those Tatars who were a Mongolian people were genocided by Genghis Khan and the name of their tribe was given to other peoples according to the Mongol custom. Volga Tatars claim Volga Bulgarian heritage.
Tatars were given to Batu and Berke and were the Mongol elite who created the Golden Horde. Modern Kazan people claim Bulgar heritage because anything related to Mongols has a bad reputation, the word ''Mongol'' itself is considered to be an insult especially in the West, with bad connotation for the commoners (Down Syndrome etc). Hopefully that has been changing for a few decades now.

[Hajimurad]

Those were probably ones who, for the sake of jumping a social class, changed their faith. There are plenty of Christian Tatars.
We talk about Moslem ones. They were second class people. Yet Russians still allowed them to exist.


Tatars were given to Batu and Berke and were the Mongol elite who created the Golden Horde. Modern Kazan people claim Bulgar heritage because anything related to Mongols has a bad reputation, the word ''Mongol'' is considered to be an insult especially in the West. Hopefully that has been changing for a few decades now.

Modern Tatars of Russia has little relation to Mongols of Chingizhan (except nobility). They are mainly descendants of Bulgars (Kazan Tatars) and Burtas (Mishar Tatars) tribes.

[unseen]

this is another reason why I converted to Islam. Hate russian vodka,bears and all russian culture

How can Islam save you from bears?

Is there a secret anti-bear prayer in Islam?

[Oghuz]

They do talk and care about sects among the Moslems. Russians are fan of Syrian Alawites for example, Brits control Wahabbis etc. They do talk a lot about it, it is you who seems to be disconnected.

You seem to be very disconnected yourself. There is no continual alliance between Islamic and western countries. Things change with time depending upon economic interests and politics. Here are examples of changing alliances in this century between Islamic countries and Superpowers.

US - Iran pre revolution (till 1970s)
Russia - Iran post (post 2010s)
Russia - Baathist Arabs (till 2000s)
US- Persian Gulf Arab Kingdoms (strong for decades but weakening now)
US - Turkey (till 2010s)
Russia - Turkey (in future)
Russia - Egypt (till Nasser Era)
US- Egypt (post Camp David)
Russia - Sisi Egypt
China - Pakistan (always)
China - Iran (2010s)
China - KSA (in future)

Nothing is permanent. No one cares about beliefs.

[Rumata]

Those were probably ones who, for the sake of jumping a social class, changed their faith. There are plenty of Christian Tatars.
We talk about Moslem ones. They were second class people. Yet Russians still allowed them to exist.
Well, religions were crucial for states back then.


Tatars were given to Batu and Berke and were the Mongol elite who created the Golden Horde. Modern Kazan people claim Bulgar heritage because anything related to Mongols has a bad reputation, the word ''Mongol'' itself is considered to be an insult especially in the West, with bad connotation for the commoners (Down Syndrome etc). Hopefully that has been changing for a few decades now.
I'll have to recheck my info. But you have to agree that modern Volga Tatars pass in Mongolia very badly.

[unseen]

The rivalry between Moslems and Orthodoxes might result from the fact that they share common borders.
That can be an argument. Since sharing common borders generate more problems than not having any shared borders.

Okay.




Were Tatars second class citizens? Yes.

No.

I will agree with you only if you show me some Russian state documents that say that Tatars should be considered second-class citizens in Russia.

[Turxanthus]

You seem to be very disconnected yourself. There is no continual alliance between Islamic and western countries. Things change with time depending upon economic interests and politics. Here are examples of changing alliances in this century between Islamic countries and Superpowers.

US - Iran pre revolution (till 1970s)
Russia - Iran post (post 2010s)
Russia - Baathist Arabs (till 2000s)
US- Persian Gulf Arab Kingdoms (strong for decades but weakening now)
US - Turkey (till 2010s)
Russia - Turkey (in future)
Russia - Egypt (till Nasser Era)
US- Egypt (post Camp David)
Russia - Sisi Egypt
China - Pakistan (always)
China - Iran (2010s)
China - KSA (in future)

Nothing is permanent. No one cares about beliefs.

Sure. Even Moslems from same religion are at each other's throat, or like how Westerners wiped out Germany of the same faith as them.
That is political reality. However, the thread was aiming at analyzing the civilization context and fabric.

Orthodox Russians crushed Moslems (Ottomans, Crimeans, Circassians etc) on several occasions as a matter of fact, but it is another story.

Thus, it still seems that you did not understand what the thread is about.

[contributor]

idk man, to me it seems the opposite going by your arguements alone...

[Turxanthus]

idk man, to me it seems the opposite going by your arguements alone...

Until 1204, the Greks allowed Moslems (Arabs) to have their small mosque in downtown Constantinople. Latins removed it after 1204, while removing Orthodoxes as well.
Yet Turks and Greeks having problems nowadays (and Greece supporting terrorist groups) is a geopolitical reality and Tengri knows how that gonna end!

[unseen]

Speech at the 10th Organisation of the Islamic Conference Summit

October 16, 2003 - 14:52 - Putrajaya, Malaysia

http://static.kremlin.ru/media/events/photos/big2x/rylj6pNu66CAlwmCLMC5E1ZXu97LjZPz.jpeg


Vladimir Putin:

Good afternoon.

I am sincerely grateful for your invitation, and for the opportunity to speak at a forum of such a large and influential international organisation.

I would like to thank in particular the Chairman of the summit, Malaysian Prime Minister Mr Mahathir Mohamad. And I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate him on the high assessment which he was just given for his contribution to the study and research of Islam.

We know that the vast majority of member countries of the Organisation supported our initiative to develop relations with the OIC. And we see in this not just a gesture, but a far-sighted and strategic decision.

I am certain that Russia’s participation will not only add to the rich spectrum of the Organisation, it will also bring new possibilities to its work, and add the weight and voice of the large Russian Muslim community. A community which no longer separates itself from the international community of Muslims, and which is prepared for productive involvement in its spiritual, cultural and political life.

Over many centuries, Russia, as a Eurasian country, has been connected with the Islamic world by traditional, natural ties. Our country is historically home to millions of Muslims, and they consider Russia their home. The names of Muslim peoples are present in the geography of territories that are part of the Russian Federation. And in this hall today, in our delegation, there are leaders of members of the Russian Federation in which the Muslim population is the majority.

I should also note that the last decade was the time for a rebirth of spiritual life of Muslims in Russia. After many decades of bans on religious education, we now have over 100 madrasahs and other institutions of religious learning. If there were 870 mosques in Russia in 1991, today there are already over 7,000.

And we thank the OIC countries and other foreign partners – we thank everyone who with good intentions and an open heart has helped their fellow believers in Russia, who has taken part in building and restoring mosques, in organising the Hajj, in implementing educational, cultural and other humanitarian programmes in our country.

The very history of Russia refutes all the ideas that are still prevalent about the insurmountable conflict between civilisations.

As you know, throughout the entire 20th century, Russia has supported many of your countries and their movements for national independence. It provided these countries with adequate, practical assistance in establishing an industrial base and social infrastructure.


http://static.kremlin.ru/media/events/photos/big2x/LzaLCjweJNAZ8FuiIUv7q71SHA4Nk7L7.jpeg


Today, Russia also actively develops contacts with most nations represented in this hall, essentially continuing long-standing, mutually beneficial traditions of cooperation and profound respect for one another.

We welcome the fact that the OIC organises its activity on the universal principles of non-intervention in internal affairs and respect for territorial integrity of sovereign states. It is against the use of force and for the settlement of conflicts by peaceful means. I would like to note that Russian foreign policy is also ruled by these principles.

Russia, like the majority of Islamic nations represented here, is in favour of consolidating the system of international law, and in favour of the central coordinating role of the UN in resolving international problems. And we are certain that through joint efforts we will be able to oppose the development of unfavourable events in the world effectively – events that lead to the appearance of new dangerous lines of division.

Russia, as a permanent member of the UN Security Council and many other multilateral institutions, is prepared to assist these constructive efforts and consistently try to consolidate the principles of trust, cooperation and mutual understanding in international relations.

Among the many threats present today, perhaps the most dangerous remains the inflammation of inter-ethnic and inter-religious conflicts. I would note that attempts to drag the international community into this essentially artificial conflict exist both in the West and in the East.

Some exploit religious slogans to carry out armed aggression against their brothers and allies, and fight against lawful authority, provoke separatism and are involved in terrorism.

Others use this situation as a tool of political pressure to achieve their own goals, which have nothing in common with the interests of Islam, with protecting human rights, or with international law in general.

We have encountered examples of this kind in Russia, in the Chechen Republic.

I thank the Organisation of the Islamic Conference and the League of Arab Nations for sending observers to the presidential elections in Chechnya. I want to assure everyone present in this hall that we will continue to increase our efforts on political stabilisation in the republic, involving all political forces and in the interests of all residents of Chechnya.

As for one of the most serious threats of the modern world, terrorism, Russia’s position is consistent and clear: terrorism must not be identified with any religion, cultural tradition or way of life. I must say that attempts by terrorists to provoke Islamophobia in our country have been completely unsuccessful.

I would like to state to you all: for citizens of our country, Russian Muslims are an integral, full and complete part of the multi-ethnic people of Russia. And we see the strength of our country in this inter-religious harmony. We see its worth, wealth and benefit.

Russia, as a unique Eurasian power, has always played a special role in building relations between the East and the West.

And I believe that our cooperation in the framework of the OIC may also today become an extremely important element of a just and safe world. It is capable of providing a basis for solving many international and religious problems without conflict.

The combination of our financial, technological and personnel resources is capable of becoming a real factor in international politics, a starting point for a breakthrough in many areas of the world economy.

I am certain that this fully corresponds to the interests of our people, and to the humanitarian values which are advocated by all world religions, including Islam.

I think it is particularly relevant to remember this today, in the days when all Muslims, the entire umma, are waiting for the beginning of the holy month of Ramadan.

I want to wish you this: may it be a time of peace, may it be filled with deeds of piety, concern for close ones and compassion for those in need.

Thank you for your attention.



The source of information (http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/transcripts/22160)

[PAGANE]

I am glad that Islam likes western Christianity and does not like true, orthodox Christianity. Very soon, this love will overwhelm Western Christians, and if for half a millennium it has been "the love of Islam with orthodox Christianity" we can then meet and talk. If they survive :)

[contributor]

Until 1204, the Greks allowed Moslems (Arabs) to have their small mosque in downtown Constantinople. Latins removed it after 1204, while removing Orthodoxes as well.
Yet Turks and Greeks having problems nowadays (and Greece supporting terrorist groups) is a geopolitical reality and Tengri knows how that gonna end!

yeah but the Turkish state is officialy atheist. Their state is ''western'' and so is their mentality in initiating politics. The western state needs an enemy to unify their folks around since there's no other way to convince the people to tolerate the levels of inequality and racism that exist in their societies.. The German owners of Turkey always used Greeks for that purpose since Kemal. And the German owners of the Greek state use the Turkish ''threat'' for their purposes too.

I bet the faithful muslim folks of Turkey hold no grudge against Greece. I have muslim friends who are Turkophones and don't even like the secularism of Turkey or the Ataturk worshipping.

[Turxanthus]

yeah but the Turkish state is officialy atheist.

So, you wish to see an ISIS-like Turkish state? That would make Turkey another Afghanistan, which would maybe fit Greece's interests? Thus, are you calling on Turks to implement a religious system to have Turkey weakened?


Their state is ''western'' and so is their mentality in initiating politics. The western state needs an enemy to unify their folks around since there's no other way to convince the people to tolerate the levels of inequality and racism that exist in their societies.. The German owners of Turkey always used Greeks for that purpose since Kemal. And the German owners of the Greek state use the Turkish ''threat'' for their purposes too.

I bet the faithful muslim folks of Turkey hold no grudge against Greece. I have muslim friends who are Turkophones and don't even like the secularism of Turkey or the Ataturk worshipping.

Are they ones who fled to Greece after coup attempt?

Average Turks don't have any grudge against Greeks. I also don't have a personal problem with Greeks, yet "Raison d'etat" is something different. The interests of the state is above all. Orthodox Greece keeps provoking and supporting terror groups who try to undermine Turkey.

An ally wouldn't do this to an ally. Even in a normal relation that can't happen.
That is declaration and waging of a covert war.

[Sche]

Moslems not being allowed to have their temples in downtown kremlin until the end of Soviet era.
Muslim churches today throughout Moscow. The Kremlin is a historical territory where any restructuring is prohibited. You are talking bullshit.

[Lemon Kush]

I say fuck them both.