White Serb/Sorb gedmatch result!

[vbnetkhio]

Sorbs were an early Slavic tribe from Eastern Germany, very likely equal to the White Serbs, the ancestors of modern day Balkan Serbs:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/db/Migration_of_serbs04_01.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs_(tribe)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Serbia

the initial core of the Sorbs was on the Thuringia/Saxony/Bohemia border area. they are marked as Sorbowie Wlasciwi (Proper Sorbs) on this map. later they spread and assimilated other tribes.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/Slavs_west_territory_Limes_Sorabicus.jpg

here are the results of my distant match, a German with all ancestry from the Proper Sorb area dating back to the 1600s. all his ancestors are from the surroundings of Jena:

https://i.imgur.com/n0Zy8kd.png


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 37.38
2 North_Atlantic 33.73
3 West_Med 8.85
4 West_Asian 8.81
5 East_Med 8.33
6 Oceanian 1.17
7 Red_Sea 0.92
8 Siberian 0.51
9 South_Asian 0.17
10 Amerindian 0.11
11 Northeast_African 0.01

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 South_Polish 6.15
2 Hungarian 6.79
3 Croatian 7.98
4 Ukrainian_Lviv 8.15
5 East_German 8.32
6 Ukrainian 8.96
7 Austrian 9.2
8 Polish 9.41
9 Moldavian 10.69
10 Southwest_Russian 11.54
11 Ukrainian_Belgorod 11.59
12 Southwest_Finnish 11.99
13 Russian_Smolensk 12.01
14 Belorussian 12.56
15 North_Swedish 12.61
16 Estonian_Polish 12.88
17 Serbian 13.96
18 Finnish 14.66
19 Estonian 15.08
20 North_German 15.28

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 59.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 40.8% West_German @ 2.83
2 59.5% Southwest_Russian + 40.5% West_German @ 3.28
3 61.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 38.8% South_Dutch @ 3.31
4 56.5% Austrian + 43.5% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.5
5 64.6% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 35.4% Southeast_English @ 3.73
6 56.5% Austrian + 43.5% Southwest_Russian @ 3.74
7 57.5% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 42.5% North_German @ 3.76
8 61.5% Southwest_Russian + 38.5% South_Dutch @ 3.76
9 57.6% Southwest_Russian + 42.4% North_German @ 3.83
10 77.3% South_Polish + 22.7% West_German @ 3.92
11 68.3% Hungarian + 31.7% Belorussian @ 3.95
12 74.9% Hungarian + 25.1% Lithuanian @ 3.95
13 72.5% Hungarian + 27.5% Estonian @ 3.95
14 75.9% South_Polish + 24.1% North_German @ 3.97
15 66.5% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 33.5% French @ 4.02
16 54.1% South_Polish + 45.9% Hungarian @ 4.04
17 67.5% Hungarian + 32.5% Russian_Smolensk @ 4.07
18 58.7% Russian_Smolensk + 41.3% West_German @ 4.09
19 72.2% Hungarian + 27.8% Finnish @ 4.1
20 64.3% South_Polish + 35.7% Austrian @ 4.12



Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 25.95
2 Baltic 21.11
3 Atlantic 19.61
4 Eastern_Euro 15.63
5 West_Asian 7.24
6 West_Med 5.2
7 East_Med 3.77
8 Oceanian 0.87
9 Red_Sea 0.63

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Hungarian 6.34
2 East_German 6.48
3 South_Polish 7.58
4 Austrian 7.89
5 Southwest_Finnish 8.47
6 Croatian 8.56
7 Ukrainian_Lviv 8.71
8 Polish 9.1
9 Ukrainian 9.14
10 Finnish 9.84
11 Moldavian 10.4
12 Russian_Smolensk 11.58
13 North_Swedish 12.12
14 Estonian 12.18
15 Ukrainian_Belgorod 12.41
16 Southwest_Russian 12.42
17 North_German 12.53
18 Serbian 12.83
19 East_Finnish 12.92
20 Belorussian 13.11

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 50.3% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 49.7% North_German @ 2.57
2 56% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 44% North_Dutch @ 2.85
3 54.5% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 45.5% West_German @ 2.87
4 61.6% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 38.4% Orcadian @ 2.92
5 58.7% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 41.3% Southeast_English @ 2.96
6 50.2% Southwest_Russian + 49.8% North_German @ 3.05
7 63.7% South_Polish + 36.3% North_German @ 3.09
8 55.5% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 44.5% Danish @ 3.09
9 54.5% Southwest_Russian + 45.5% West_German @ 3.1
10 59.1% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 40.9% Southwest_English @ 3.17
11 59.6% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 40.4% West_Scottish @ 3.28
12 58.9% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 41.1% Irish @ 3.28
13 60% Ukrainian_Lviv + 40% North_German @ 3.33
14 56.5% Russian_Smolensk + 43.5% West_German @ 3.35
15 68.8% South_Polish + 31.2% Danish @ 3.41
16 69.4% South_Polish + 30.6% North_Dutch @ 3.51
17 74.1% South_Polish + 25.9% Orcadian @ 3.51
18 56.1% Southwest_Russian + 43.9% North_Dutch @ 3.51
19 58.8% Ukrainian + 41.2% North_German @ 3.52
20 54% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 46% South_Dutch @ 3.56






Population
Amerindian -
Arabian 0.28 Pct
Armenian 0.20 Pct
Basque -
Central_African -
Central_Euro 6.64 Pct
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 8.32 Pct
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 16.73 Pct
East_Med -
Eastern_Euro 12.20 Pct
Fennoscandian 8.70 Pct
French 4.49 Pct
Iberian 2.63 Pct
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 9.14 Pct
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African -
North_Atlantic 13.06 Pct
North_Caucasian -
North_Sea 13.31 Pct
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian 0.06 Pct
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 0.80 Pct
West_African -
West_Caucasian 3.43 Pct
West_Med -

[vbnetkhio]

his Taux de similitude

https://i.imgur.com/WdjNCnw.png

[Adamg]

boring

[vbnetkhio]

boring

Sorbs are a part of the history of your homeland, Czech and German guy

[CommonSense]

Not a pure Sorb. From the referrences I've seen, they almost entirely lack German admix.

[vbnetkhio]

Not a pure Sorb. From the referrences I've seen, they almost entirely lack German admix.

of course, this one is roughly half early Slavic, half Germanic.
that sample which you are talking about is from some very isolated village, he is ~80% identical to early medieval Slavs. that's very rare.

[vbnetkhio]

Y-Dna haplogroup - R1a
mt-dna - U5

[vbnetkhio]

https://i.imgur.com/OwpCpjk.png

[vbnetkhio]

the spread of his surname in 1890:
https://i.imgur.com/sDsTXyq.png

Dervan's Serbia:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Dervan.png

[Leto]

Run him through the custom oracle, he seems to be very close to Czechs.

[vbnetkhio]

Run him through the custom oracle, he seems to be very close to Czechs.

k13?

[Leto]

k13?
Yes. You and Lemgrant use that oracle.

[vbnetkhio]

Yes. You and Lemgrant use that oracle.



[,1] [,2]
[1,] "South_Polish" "6.9215"
[2,] "Hungarian" "7.5297"
[3,] "Croatian" "8.9855"
[4,] "Ukrainian_Lviv" "9.2689"
[5,] "East_German" "9.3028"
[6,] "Ukrainian" "10.1319"
[7,] "Austrian" "10.2902"
[8,] "Polish" "10.682"
[9,] "Moldavian" "12.1283"
[10,] "Southwest_Russian" "13.0814"
[11,] "Ukrainian_Belgorod" "13.159"
[12,] "Southwest_Finnish" "13.4761"
[13,] "Russian_Smolensk" "13.6436"
[14,] "Belorussian" "14.2474"
[15,] "North_Swedish" "14.4794"
[16,] "Estonian_Polish" "14.63"
[17,] "Serbian" "15.8485"
[18,] "Finnish" "16.3273"
[19,] "Estonian" "17.0902"
[20,] "Kargopol_Russian" "17.4701"
[,1] [,2]
[1,] "59.1 % Ukrainian_Belgorod + 40.9 % West_German" "3.055"
[2,] "59.4 % Southwest_Russian + 40.6 % West_German" "3.571"
[3,] "39 % South_Dutch + 61 % Ukrainian_Belgorod" "3.5727"
[4,] "56.8 % Austrian + 43.2 % Ukrainian_Belgorod" "3.7841"
[5,] "56.8 % Austrian + 43.2 % Southwest_Russian" "4.0916"
[6,] "38.6 % South_Dutch + 61.4 % Southwest_Russian" "4.1048"
[7,] "35.3 % Southeast_English + 64.7 % Ukrainian_Belgorod" "4.1758"
[8,] "42.4 % North_German + 57.6 % Ukrainian_Belgorod" "4.1997"
[9,] "27.3 % Estonian + 72.7 % Hungarian" "4.2513"
[10,] "42.2 % North_German + 57.8 % Southwest_Russian" "4.2843"
[11,] "75.3 % Hungarian + 24.7 % Lithuanian" "4.2925"
[12,] "31.2 % Belorussian + 68.8 % Hungarian" "4.3247"
[13,] "77.2 % South_Polish + 22.8 % West_German" "4.3283"
[14,] "28.1 % Finnish + 71.9 % Hungarian" "4.3502"
[15,] "33.7 % French + 66.3 % Ukrainian_Belgorod" "4.4023"
[16,] "46.6 % Hungarian + 53.4 % South_Polish" "4.4158"
[17,] "23.9 % North_German + 76.1 % South_Polish" "4.4318"
[18,] "68 % Hungarian + 32 % Russian_Smolensk" "4.4557"
[19,] "36.2 % Austrian + 63.8 % South_Polish" "4.5186"
[20,] "61.7 % Hungarian + 38.3 % Polish" "4.5261"
[,1] [,2]
[1,] "50% % Hungarian + 50% % South_Polish" "4.9032"
[2,] "50% % Austrian + 50% % Polish" "5.5857"
[3,] "50% % Austrian + 50% % Ukrainian" "5.6528"
[4,] "50% % East_German + 50% % Ukrainian_Lviv" "5.9393"
[5,] "50% % Finnish + 50% % Serbian" "6.2663"
[6,] "50% % Austrian + 50% % Ukrainian_Lviv" "6.4147"
[7,] "50% % East_German + 50% % Ukrainian" "6.6963"
[8,] "50% % Lithuanian + 50% % West_German" "6.7355"
[9,] "50% % Erzya + 50% % South_Dutch" "6.7653"
[10,] "50% % Hungarian + 50% % Ukrainian_Lviv" "6.8619"
[11,] "50% % East_German + 50% % South_Polish" "6.9071"
[12,] "50% % Austrian + 50% % Ukrainian_Belgorod" "7.0892"
[13,] "50% % East_German + 50% % Polish" "7.178"
[14,] "50% % Austrian + 50% % Southwest_Russian" "7.1822"
[15,] "50% % Moldavian + 50% % Southwest_Finnish" "7.1854"
[16,] "50% % Hungarian + 50% % Polish" "7.2482"
[17,] "50% % Danish + 50% % Erzya" "7.2867"
[18,] "50% % Austrian + 50% % South_Polish" "7.3083"
[19,] "50% % Croatian + 50% % East_German" "7.3305"
[20,] "50% % Estonian + 50% % Serbian" "7.4207"
[1] "nMONTE 1"
[1] "distance%=1.699"



Belorussian,35.1
Ukrainian_Belgorod,21.1
Norwegian,19.8
North_Dutch,13.8
Lebanese_Druze,6.4
Abhkasian,3.3
Papuan,0.4
Lezgin,0.1

[1] "nMONTE 3"
[1] "distance%=3.2731"



South_Polish,38.4
Hungarian,28.2
Belorussian,4
Southwest_Russian,3.4
Ukrainian_Belgorod,3
North_Swedish,2.4
Norwegian,2.4
Swedish,2
Finnish,1.6
La_Brana-1,1.6
North_German,1.6
Danish,1.2
Irish,1.2
North_Dutch,1.2
West_Scottish,1.2
Lithuanian,1
Russian_Smolensk,1
Orcadian,0.6
Balkar,0.4
Chechen,0.4
Italian_Abruzzo,0.4
Adygei,0.2
Ashkenazi,0.2
Azeri,0.2
Central_Greek,0.2
Cyprian,0.2
Kurdish_Jewish,0.2
Lezgin,0.2
Nogay,0.2
North_Ossetian,0.2
Serbian,0.2
Southeast_English,0.2
Syrian,0.2
Tadjik,0.2
West_German,0.2

[Peterski]

that sample which you are talking about is from some very isolated village

Let's start with the fact that the Lower Sorb on G25 is from area located ca. 230 kilometers to the east / north-east of this guy:

https://i.imgur.com/oIA1ITQ.png

This guy has all of ancestors from Jena-Gera-Zwickau areas based on GEDCOM, right?

[vbnetkhio]

Let's start with the fact that the Lower Sorb on G25 is from area located ca. 230 kilometers to the east / north-east of this guy:

https://i.imgur.com/oIA1ITQ.png

This guy has all of ancestors from Jena-Gera-Zwickau areas based on GEDCOM, right?

he's 100% from Jena

[Peterski]

he's 100% from Jena

So 100% Thuringia actually. Really surprising that so much Slavic DNA is preserved so far to the west.

Edit:

Even if apart from Jena he is partially from Gera too, that is still 100% Thuringia. Gera is in Thuringia.

[vbnetkhio]

So 100% Thuringia actually. Really surprising that so much Slavic DNA is preserved so far to the west.

The Limes Sorabicus was further to the west, slightly west of Erfurt. that's probably where Slavic admixture radically drops in the rural population.

[vbnetkhio]

Let's start with the fact that the Lower Sorb on G25 is from area located ca. 230 kilometers to the east / north-east of this guy:

This guy has all of ancestors from Jena-Gera-Zwickau areas based on GEDCOM, right?

everybody in that area is just a mix of Slavs, Celts and Germans in various proportions. when it comes to admixtures, he is just like the G25 Sorb + more Celtic and Germanic admixture.

here's a k36 plot of Leipzig Germans, Lusatian Sorbs, and him(German_Jena):

https://i.imgur.com/cdUOIeG.png

notice how they all plot on the line roughly between Belarus to West Germany.

[Voyt]

If Sorbs were ancestors of Serbs, then wouldn't this dude cluster closer to Serbs, rather than clustering closer to Hungarians and Croats? I think this supports more the theory that Sorbs and Serbs branched off from a source population, most likely somewhere more eastern, rather than one being an offshoot of the other.

[Leto]

[CODE]
[,1]
No custom average for Czechs. Lemgrant's version does have it.

[Peterski]

If Sorbs were ancestors of Serbs, then wouldn't this dude cluster closer to Serbs

Nope, because White Serbs mixed with local Paleo-Balkan peoples when they moved to Serbia.

This model based on G25 shows that it is possible to model Serbs as Sorb + native Balkan mix:

https://i.imgur.com/7IzlwX2.png

BGR_IA = Iron Age Bulgaria
HRV_IA = Iron Age Dalmatia
MDA = Moldova Cimmerians

No more than half of Serbian ancestry comes from a Sorb-like source. The rest is native Balkan.

[Dick]

Nope, because White Serbs mixed with local Paleo-Balkan peoples when they moved to Serbia.

This model based on G25 shows that it is possible to model Serbs as Sorb + native Balkan mix:

https://i.imgur.com/7IzlwX2.png

BGR_IA = Iron Age Bulgaria
HRV_IA = Iron Age Dalmatia
MDA = Moldova Cimmerians

No more than half of Serbian ancestry comes from a Sorb-like source. The rest is native Balkan.

Try without Hrv IA, it's not really "Balkanic"(more like North Italian)even though it was found in the Balkans

[Voyt]

Nope, because White Serbs mixed with local Paleo-Balkan peoples when they moved to Serbia.

This model based on G25 shows that it is possible to model Serbs as Sorb + native Balkan mix:

https://i.imgur.com/7IzlwX2.png

BGR_IA = Iron Age Bulgaria
HRV_IA = Iron Age Dalmatia
MDA = Moldova Cimmerians

No more than half of Serbian ancestry comes from a Sorb-like source. The rest is native Balkan.

Is there a similar chart for Croatians, Slovenians, Bulgarians, Macedonians, Hungarians?


Interesting, although it's kinda hard to grasp the idea that hundreds of thousands of Sorbs moved to Bosnia/Serbia and intermixed with the Illyrians there to a 50/50 extent.

There were 100,000 Sorbs in Lusatia in 1900, and there are less than 100,000 today. Even assuming that Sorbs were much more prevalent back then, it just doesn't seem possible that they were so extensive to be able to send that many people to the Balkans and intermix with them to such an extent.

Is it possible to make a different model such that Sorbs are the ones that have 50% Serb admixture, along with some Germanic component? That would be much more fitting with their population sizes.

[Peterski]

Interesting, although it's kinda hard to grasp the idea that hundreds of thousands of Sorbs moved Bosnia/Serbia and intermixed with the Illyrians there to a 50/50 extent.

Well, I suppose that in reality only some of "Northern Slavic" DNA in Serbia is from Sorbs.

The rest is from Slavs who crossed the Danube near the Black Sea a few centuries prior:

Menander Protector, fragments 47 and 48:

"About the fourth year of the reign of Caesar Tiberius Constantine, some hundred thousand Slavs broke into Thrace, and pillaged that and many other regions. As Greece was being laid waste by the Slavs, with trouble liable to flare up anywhere, and as Tiberius had at his disposal by no means sufficient forces to contain them, he sent a delegation to the Khagan of the Avars. (...)"

Procopius of Caesarea, "Historia Arcana", 18, 20-21:

"Illyria and all of Thrace, that is, from the Ionian Gulf to the suburbs of Constantinople, including Greece and the Chersonese, were overran by the Slavs, almost every year, from the time when Justinian took over the Roman Empire; and intolerable things they did to the inhabitants. For in each of these invasions, I estimate, more than two hundred thousand Romans were slain or enslaved, so that all this country became a desert like that of Scythia."

John of Ephesus "Historia Ecclesiastica", 6, 25:

"That same year, being the third after the death of emperor Justin, was famous also for the invasion of an accursed people, called Slavs, who overran the whole of Greece, and the lands of Thessaly, and all Thrace, and captured the cities, and took numerous forts, and devastated and burnt, and reduced the people to slavery, and made themselves masters of the whole country, and settled in it by main force, and dwelt in it as though it had been their own without fear. And four years have now elapsed, and still, because the king is engaged in the war with the Persians, and has sent all his forces to the East, they live at their ease in the land, and dwell in it, and spread themselves far and wide as far as God permits them, and ravage and burn and take captive. And to such an extent do they carry their ravages, that they've even ridden up to the outer wall of the city [Constantinople], and driven away all the king's herds of horses, many thousands in number, and whatever else they could find. And even to this day, being the year 584 AD, they still encamp and dwell there, and live in peace in the Roman territories, free from anxiety and fear, and lead captive and slay and burn: and they have grown rich in gold and silver, and herds of horses, and arms, and have learnt to fight better than the Romans, though at first they were but rude savages, who did not venture to shew themselves outside the woods and the coverts of the trees; and as for arms, they did not even know what they were, with the exception of two or three javelins or darts."

^^^
All of those events were taking place long BEFORE the migration of White Serbs to Serbia.

Obviously those Slavs who broke into Thrace were ancestors of Bulgarians and Macedonians.

And partially they were ancestors of Serbs. White Serbs being the other part who came later.

[Cumansky]

Serbs came from India and North Caucasus according to Kosovo Report Serbs on Youtube did you watch?

[Dick]

Well, I suppose that in reality only some of "Northern Slavic" DNA in Serbia is from Sorbs.

The rest is from Slavs who crossed the Danube near the Black Sea a few centuries prior:

Menander Protector, fragments 47 and 48:

"About the fourth year of the reign of Caesar Tiberius Constantine, some hundred thousand Slavs broke into Thrace, and pillaged that and many other regions. As Greece was being laid waste by the Slavs, with trouble liable to flare up anywhere, and as Tiberius had at his disposal by no means sufficient forces to contain them, he sent a delegation to the Khagan of the Avars. (...)"

Procopius of Caesarea, "Historia Arcana", 18, 20-21:

"Illyria and all of Thrace, that is, from the Ionian Gulf to the suburbs of Constantinople, including Greece and the Chersonese, were overran by the Slavs, almost every year, from the time when Justinian took over the Roman Empire; and intolerable things they did to the inhabitants. For in each of these invasions, I estimate, more than two hundred thousand Romans were slain or enslaved, so that all this country became a desert like that of Scythia."

John of Ephesus "Historia Ecclesiastica", 6, 25:

"That same year, being the third after the death of emperor Justin, was famous also for the invasion of an accursed people, called Slavs, who overran the whole of Greece, and the lands of Thessaly, and all Thrace, and captured the cities, and took numerous forts, and devastated and burnt, and reduced the people to slavery, and made themselves masters of the whole country, and settled in it by main force, and dwelt in it as though it had been their own without fear. And four years have now elapsed, and still, because the king is engaged in the war with the Persians, and has sent all his forces to the East, they live at their ease in the land, and dwell in it, and spread themselves far and wide as far as God permits them, and ravage and burn and take captive. And to such an extent do they carry their ravages, that they have even ridden up to the outer wall of the city, and driven away all the king's herds of horses, many thousands in number, and whatever else they could find. And even to this day, being the year 584 AD, they still encamp and dwell there, and live in peace in the Roman territories, free from anxiety and fear, and lead captive and slay and burn: and they have grown rich in gold and silver, and herds of horses, and arms, and have learnt to fight better than the Romans, though at first they were but rude savages, who did not venture to shew themselves outside the woods and the coverts of the trees; and as for arms, they did not even know what they were, with the exception of two or three javelins or darts."

^^^
All of those events were taking place long BEFORE the migration of White Serbs to Serbia.

Obviously those Slavs who broke into Thrace were ancestors of Bulgarians and Macedonians.

And partially they were ancestors of Serbs. White Serbs being the other part who came later.

Well, there were already Slavs in the Balkans since the Dark Ages(example the Vayunites tribe among others) but the only explanations for both tribes to share the same name is either the Sorbs/Serby imposed their name on the other Slavs when they migrated to the Balkans(the unknown archon was either Dervan's son or brother so they say, something to that effect I can't be bothered to look it up right now) like the Bulgarians did or the theory that all Slavs were called Serbs according to Jordanes. Which theory sounds more plausible to you?

[Voyt]

Well, I suppose that in reality only some of "Northern Slavic" DNA in Serbia is from Sorbs.

The rest is from Slavs who crossed the Danube near the Black Sea a few centuries prior:



^^^
All of those events were taking place long BEFORE the migration of White Serbs to Serbia.

Obviously those Slavs who broke into Thrace were ancestors of Bulgarians and Macedonians.

And partially they were ancestors of Serbs. White Serbs being the other part who came later.


But those slavs are obviously different genetically from Sorbs, so it doesn't make sense to equate them. The 50% from your chart is from Lower Lusatia, so why would they share near exact genes with the Sclaveni who came in from the Bulgarian route

idk, if you ask me, the reason Sorbs cluster closer to Croats makes most sense if either

1. they split off from each other from a source population in northern Carpathia/west Ukraine

OR

2. the Sorbs are in actuality a result of "Croats" (who were a tribe of Serbs) moving north and forming their own coalition against the Franks

it would explain why you can find these types in Sorbian crowds frequently: https://i.imgur.com/aaYEzPT.png

who look like they could pass as natives in Croatia

[Peterski]

But those slavs are obviously different genetically from Sorbs, so it doesn't make sense to equate them.

They aren't that different from each other:

https://i.imgur.com/bJG5nvK.png

https://i.imgur.com/886XEhS.png

https://i.imgur.com/QrXcv4N.png

https://i.imgur.com/pz0GOaw.png

=====

For comparison distances of Macedonians:

https://i.imgur.com/FauRJZr.png

[Voyt]

They aren't that different from each other:



So what happens if you replace the "Lower-Lusatian" sample in that chart with some other west-Slav or east-Slav population?

Is it around 40-50% as well?

[Peterski]

Is it around 40-50% as well?

With Czechs it even increases to 60%. With Ukrainians it also increases. Haven't tried Slovaks yet and Poles yet.

[Voyt]

With Czechs it even increases to 60%. With Ukrainians it also increases. Haven't tried Slovaks yet and Poles yet.

I can see now that it's possible the Sorbs spread their namesake to the south slavs already present, even though they were more genetically close to the Croats.

Possible, but I find it unlikely given that those already present don't really appreciate the new guy taking charge and choosing the team name (especially given that the new guy numbers 10x less than those already present (which wouldn't be the case if Sorbs derived from Serbs)). And if they were that influential, why couldn't they influence the Croats to change their name as well, given that they were closer to each other than Sorbs to Bosnian Serbs

In the same way, it's just as likely--using that line of reasoning--that the Sorbs from the north got their name from the Serbs in the south

[Ljubic]

Sorbs cluster closer to Croats because the region of todays Croatia got a greater influx of Slavs settling in that area than todays Serbia and not because they are affiliated. It also helped that the Ancient population of western Roman Dalmatia was more north shifted that the eastern part.

[Peterski]

Croats descend from White Croats who also came from the north.

[Mingle]

Interesting, although it's kinda hard to grasp the idea that hundreds of thousands of Sorbs moved to Bosnia/Serbia and intermixed with the Illyrians there to a 50/50 extent.

There were 100,000 Sorbs in Lusatia in 1900, and there are less than 100,000 today. Even assuming that Sorbs were much more prevalent back then, it just doesn't seem possible that they were so extensive to be able to send that many people to the Balkans and intermix with them to such an extent.

Serbs don't only descend from Sorbs. They descend from many different Slavic tribes (as do other South Slavs). They just get their name from Sorbs since Sorbs were the culturally most dominant Slavic tribe at the time of their early nation building phase.

[Mingle]

Croats descend from White Croats who also came from the north.

Just cause they got their name from White Croats doesn't mean most (or even a huge portion) of their Slavic genetics is from them. The White Croats would have heavily intermixed with Central European Slavs before settling in Croatia. And even after settling in the borders of Croatia, they would have mixed with other Slavs.

[vbnetkhio]

I think this supports more the theory that Sorbs and Serbs branched off from a source population, most likely somewhere more eastern, rather than one being an offshoot of the other.

White Serbia was "beyond Hungary (from Byzantine perspective), neighbouring White Croatia and Francia". it could be only there.
the White Croatia is obviuosly not the one in Ukraine, but the one in northern Bohemia (Charvati, Charvatci). Slavic tribes in Bohemia:

http://labphys.tf.czu.cz/CeskeKmeny.jpg

[vbnetkhio]

Is it possible to make a different model such that Sorbs are the ones that have 50% Serb admixture

no, because Sorbs have little to none Paleo-Balkan(Greek-like) admixture.

[Mingle]

White Serbia was "beyond Hungary (from Byzantine perspective), neighbouring White Croatia and Francia". it could be only there.
the White Croatia is obviuosly not the one in Ukraine, but the one in northern Bohemia (Charvati, Charvatci). Slavic tribes in Bohemia:

http://labphys.tf.czu.cz/CeskeKmeny.jpg

First time I've heard of the White Croatia in Bohemia. It makes more sense for White Croatia to be there. I wonder why it's always placed in Ukraine instead.

[Mingle]

no, because Sorbs have little to none Paleo-Balkan(Greek-like) admixture.

Maybe he could model them as something like 50% Serb + 50% Latvian?

[vbnetkhio]

First time I've heard of the White Croatia in Bohemia. It makes more sense for White Croatia to be there. I wonder why it's always placed in Ukraine instead.

The Croat tribe in Ukraine was always mentioned as "White Croats", always with this "White", in historical sources.
These were mentioned just as "Croats", but when Constantine VII mentions "White Croatia which neighbours the Franks" he is obviously talking about this one.

[vbnetkhio]

Maybe he could model them as something like 50% Serb + 50% Latvian?

that model would still have 25% "Balkan" because Serbs in G25 are roughly 50% "Balkan", i believe.

[vbnetkhio]

But those slavs are obviously different genetically from Sorbs, so it doesn't make sense to equate them.


No.
Early Slavs were originally a very small group, and they were all genetically very similar to each other. They were like Belorusians, some groups maybe more similar to north Ukrainians, east Poles, or West Russians. but still 95% similar to each other. i'll just call it "Belarusian-like" genetics for simplicity's sake.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/The_origin_and_dispersion_of_Slavs_in_the_5-10th_centuries.png

a sample from near Moscow from 1200 ad was still 90% early Slavic, with very little local Finnic admixture.
Sorbs came to Germany around 550 AD, and brought Belarusian-like genetics. Then, around 620 AD, a part of them split and migrated to the Balkans, and also brought Belarusian-like genetics to the Balkans. They didn't have enough time to pick up any other admixture.

Those other tribes, which came to the Balkans through modern day Moldova and Romania, also brought Belarusian-like genetics with them.



it would explain why you can find these types in Sorbian crowds frequently: https://i.imgur.com/aaYEzPT.png

who look like they could pass as natives in Croatia

Austrians, Czech, South Polish, and this man i posted, are Slavs + Celts + Germans, and not much else. Hungarians and Croats(north Croats in this case) are also Slavs + Celts + Germans, and they also have some Paleo-Balkan influence on top of that, but still pretty similar to Czechs and South Polish. they are all together in a "Central European" cluster. that's why this Sorb is close to them.

https://i.imgur.com/2WlxkSE.png

-
-
-

in the end, why complicate things this much? just take a look at the results i posted in the first post:

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 59.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 40.8% West_German @ 2.83
2 59.5% Southwest_Russian + 40.5% West_German @ 3.28
3 61.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 38.8% South_Dutch @ 3.31

the genetics of this man are very simple.

[Voyt]

White Serbia was "beyond Hungary (from Byzantine perspective), neighbouring White Croatia and Francia". it could be only there.
the White Croatia is obviuosly not the one in Ukraine, but the one in northern Bohemia (Charvati, Charvatci). Slavic tribes in Bohemia:

http://labphys.tf.czu.cz/CeskeKmeny.jpg

I'm not doubting that there was a "white serbia" nor "white croatia" during the Byzantine times; what I'm disputing is necessarily the notion that Serbs and Croats got their names from those places, rather than from an even earlier splitting off point somewhere eastern. When a tribe would have split, one would have gone west, and the other south. Then the Byzantine sources hear about the places that went "west", and then by virtue of them automatically assume that the Serbs and Croats right north of them derived from those that went west. That's the only thing that seems iffy to me, especially given that the west Sorbs had a bunch of other problems to deal with at the time, much bigger problems like the Franks.

And anyway, "Srbi" and "Hrvati" don't sound like slavic names to begin with, more like something Iranic or by extension Sarmatian, which would support the theory that they originally came from Slavicized Sarmatians.

[Cumansky]

https://youtu.be/Wg79R5jopj8

[Voyt]

No.
Early Slavs were originally a very small group, and they were all genetically very similar to each other. They were like Belorusians, some groups maybe more similar to north Ukrainians, east Poles, or West Russians. but still 95% similar to each other. i'll just call it "Belarusian-like" genetics for simplicity's sake.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/The_origin_and_dispersion_of_Slavs_in_the_5-10th_centuries.png

a sample from near Moscow from 1200 ad was still 90% early Slavic, with very little local Finnic admixture.
Sorbs came to Germany around 550 AD, and brought Belarusian-like genetics. Then, around 620 AD, a part of them split and migrated to the Balkans, and also brought Belarusian-like genetics to the Balkans. They didn't have enough time to pick up any other admixture.

Those other tribes, which came to the Balkans through modern day Moldova and Romania, also brought Belarusian-like genetics with them.



Austrians, Czech, South Polish, and this man i posted, are Slavs + Celts + Germans, and not much else. Hungarians and Croats(north Croats in this case) are also Slavs + Celts + Germans, and they also have some Paleo-Balkan influence on top of that, but still pretty similar to Czechs and South Polish. they are all together in a "Central European" cluster. that's why this Sorb is close to them.




Not all Croats have paleo-Balkan admixture though. "Greater Croatia" is made up of Dalmatia, Istra, Slavonia, Herzegovina, and Northwest Croatia. All of these subregions have more paleo-Balkan admixture, EXCEPT for Northwest Croatia, which is much more similar to west Slavs.

All I'm saying is that when given your theory, it's just as likely that "White Serbs" and "White Croats" got their namesake from a small coalition of "actual" Serbs and Croats from the south, as it is that your theory is likely. What I think though, is that neither of those theories are likelier than the theory that they split off from an eastern source.

[vbnetkhio]

I'm not doubting that there was a "white serbia" nor "white croatia" during the Byzantine times; what I'm disputing is necessarily the notion that Serbs and Croats got their names from those places, rather than from an even earlier splitting off point somewhere eastern. When a tribe would have split, one would have gone west, and the other south. Then the Byzantine sources hear about the places that went "west", and then by virtue of them automatically assume that the Serbs and Croats right north of them derived from those that went west. That's the only thing that seems iffy to me, especially given that the west Sorbs had a bunch of other problems to deal with at the time, much bigger problems like the Franks.

And anyway, "Srbi" and "Hrvati" don't sound like slavic names to begin with, more like something Iranic or by extension Sarmatian, which would support the theory that they originally came from Slavicized Sarmatians.

well yes, that makes sense. but going by historical sources only, they came from Bohemia and East Germany.

[MagnusDark]

Nope, because White Serbs mixed with local Paleo-Balkan peoples when they moved to Serbia.

This model based on G25 shows that it is possible to model Serbs as Sorb + native Balkan mix:

https://i.imgur.com/7IzlwX2.png

BGR_IA = Iron Age Bulgaria
HRV_IA = Iron Age Dalmatia
MDA = Moldova Cimmerians

No more than half of Serbian ancestry comes from a Sorb-like source. The rest is native Balkan.

Aren't Sorbs mostly R1a-L260? Idk their Z280 levels, however, they also practically lack I2a1b-Y3120. Y3120 & Z280 are more dominant in Balkan Serbs. L260 is near insignificant. Also, Whilst L1029 is also present, I think total M458 in Serbs is like 5 percent, whilst the rest is Z280.

Voight may be right that the tribe split from a more eastern positions and not directly from Sorbia. Otherwise it doesn't look like Sorbs left much of a mark in Serbs from a YDNA perspective.

[Dick]

Aren't Sorbs mostly R1a-L260? Idk their Z280 levels, however, they also practically lack I2a1b-Y3120. Y3120 & Z280 are more dominant in Balkan Serbs. L260 is near insignificant. Also, Whilst L1029 is also present, I think total M458 in Serbs is like 5 percent, whilst the rest is Z280.

Voight may be right that the tribe split from a more eastern positions and not directly from Sorbia. Otherwise it doesn't look like Sorbs left much of a mark in Serbs from a YDNA perspective.

I2a was already in the Balkans via someone else there was no tribe split

[Jana]

First time I've heard of the White Croatia in Bohemia. It makes more sense for White Croatia to be there. I wonder why it's always placed in Ukraine instead.

Because White Croats base was always western Ukraine. Part moved to Czech Republic and southern Poland later on.
Porfirogenet mentions two different locations of white Croatia, one in Bohemia and one much further east, which was frequently plundered by Pechenegs and between Baltic and Black seas.
Only relevant archeological remains of White Croats are found in Ukraine and not in Czech Republic.



Sedov considered them as Southeastern neighbours of Dulebes living in the Northern and Southern area of Eastern Prykarpattia, and along B. O. Tymoshchuk argued that Slavic Gords in Bukovina were abandoned by Croats. Many other scholars also located the Croats in the territory of Galicia, and such localization is supported by DAI according to which they were plundered by the Pechenegs which would not be possible if the Croats were located further in the West like the Czech Republic. Ukrainian archaeologist and historian Orest Korchinsky attribute to White Croatia several big Gords, including Revno, Stiljsko, Zhydachiv, Kotorin complex, Klyuchi, Stuponica, Krylos, Pidhorodyshche, Terebovlia, Ganachivka, Solonsko among others.

[Jana]

Not all Croats have paleo-Balkan admixture though. "Greater Croatia" is made up of Dalmatia, Istra, Slavonia, Herzegovina, and Northwest Croatia. All of these subregions have more paleo-Balkan admixture, EXCEPT for Northwest Croatia, which is much more similar to west Slavs.

Please don't make me laugh, calling this butchered banana land ''Greater Croatia''. And Herzegovina belongs to another country.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9e/Kingdom_of_Croatia.png/1024px-Kingdom_of_Croatia.png

Croatia at the height of its power, 1024.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Croatia_(925%E2%80%931102)

[vbnetkhio]

Porfirogenet mentions two different locations of white Croatia, one in Bohemia and one much further east, which was frequently plundered by Pechenegs and between Baltic and Black seas.

there was probably a second White Serbia in Ukraine too, since it's mentioned that Hungarians passed through Serbia before coming to Pannonia.
A common match of me and the Sorb is a Rusyn with the surname "Boika". maybe it's connected with the alternate name of White Serbia "Boiki".

[vbnetkhio]

I2a was already in the Balkans via someone else there was no tribe split

in the year 517 Slavs(Antae,Sclaveni) started invading Byzantium from the direction of modern day Romania. Serbs and Croats come around 100 later (yellow arrow)
https://i.imgur.com/qbfUa4r.jpg

i2a and r1a subclades which are found both in eastern and western Balkans are probably from these earlier Slavs.

[Cumansky]

"The Dacians (/ˈdeɪʃənz/; Latin: Daci; Greek: Δάκοι,[2] Δάοι,[2] Δάκαι[3]) were a Thracian[4][5][6] people who were the ancient inhabitants of the cultural region of Dacia, located in the area near the Carpathian Mountains and west of the Black Sea. This area includes mainly the present-day countries of Romania and Moldova, as well as parts of Ukraine,[7] Eastern Serbia, Northern Bulgaria, Slovakia,[8] Hungary and Southern Poland.[7] The Dacians spoke the Dacian language, a sub-group of Thracian, but were somewhat culturally influenced by the neighbouring Scythians and by the Celtic invaders of the 4th century BC."

Croatian branch of I2 mostly came from the Dacians. Some Iranic tribe arrived to Carpathians in the migration era. I guess this is "Horvat tribe" or whatever but to be specific they are branch of North Iranic people probably related with "Jassic" people or some other remnant nomadic population that also assimilated into various peoples of the Eurasian Steppe. They probably had female nomads with them, upon their arrival to Carpathian the Dacians assimilated bunch of Feiichys (manly behaving womans) and passed to their offspring Thracian Y-DNA I2. For example when I see western shifted Romanians picking up random "Croatia" region in 23andme but all the eastern shifted Romanians don't, I am confident in this connection

Haplogroup I2
Croatia (38%)
Possible place of origin: Eastern Europe (Balkans), possibly the Eastern Mediterranean

Croatian population 4.076 million, assume half are males 2.038 million, 38% of 2.038 million have I2 haplogroup, majority is PH908

[Cumansky]

"The Dacians (/ˈdeɪʃənz/; Latin: Daci; Greek: Δάκοι,[2] Δάοι,[2] Δάκαι[3]) were a Thracian[4][5][6] people who were the ancient inhabitants of the cultural region of Dacia, located in the area near the Carpathian Mountains and west of the Black Sea. This area includes mainly the present-day countries of Romania and Moldova, as well as parts of Ukraine,[7] Eastern Serbia, Northern Bulgaria, Slovakia,[8] Hungary and Southern Poland.[7] The Dacians spoke the Dacian language, a sub-group of Thracian, but were somewhat culturally influenced by the neighbouring Scythians and by the Celtic invaders of the 4th century BC."

Croatian branch of I2 mostly came from the Dacians. Some Iranic tribe arrived to Carpathians in the migration era. I guess this is "Horvat tribe" or whatever but to be specific they are branch of North Iranic people probably related with "Jassic" people or some other remnant nomadic population that also assimilated into various peoples of the Eurasian Steppe. They probably had female nomads with them, upon their arrival to Carpathian the Dacians assimilated bunch of Feiichys (manly behaving womans) and passed to their offspring Thracian Y-DNA I2. For example when I see western shifted Romanians picking up random "Croatia" region in 23andme but all the eastern shifted Romanians don't, I am confident in this connection

Haplogroup I2
Croatia (38%)
Possible place of origin: Eastern Europe (Balkans), possibly the Eastern Mediterranean

Croatian population 4.076 million, assume half are males 2.038 million, 38% of 2.038 million have I2 haplogroup, majority is PH908

[vbnetkhio]

Aren't Sorbs mostly R1a-L260? Idk their Z280 levels, however, they also practically lack I2a1b-Y3120. Y3120 & Z280 are more dominant in Balkan Serbs. L260 is near insignificant. Also, Whilst L1029 is also present, I think total M458 in Serbs is like 5 percent, whilst the rest is Z280.

Voight may be right that the tribe split from a more eastern positions and not directly from Sorbia. Otherwise it doesn't look like Sorbs left much of a mark in Serbs from a YDNA perspective.

in central Germany there's I2a2Dinaric>PH908>A356/Z16983 which is also found in Serbs. in core Sorb area there's are 2 I2a2 'Dinaric-S' without deeper subclades.
this match of mine is R1a, he didn't test deeper subclades.

so probably I-Z16983 and maybe one R1a subclade brought the Serb name to the Balkans, the other subclades are from those earlier Slavic tribes.

[Cumansky]

in central Germany there's I2a2Dinaric>PH908>A356/Z16983 which is also found in Serbs. in core Sorb area there's are 2 I2a2 'Dinaric-S' without deeper subclades.
this match of mine is R1a, he didn't test deeper subclades.

so probably I-Z16983 and maybe one R1a subclade brought the Serb name to the Balkans, the other subclades are from those earlier Slavic tribes.

You have 2 Serbs in Z-16983 and they are the forefathers of Serbia, lol

You noticed I didn't mention Serbs with I2 haplogroup, because they shouldn't be connected in terms of origin

[Cumansky]

in central Germany there's I2a2Dinaric>PH908>A356/Z16983 which is also found in Serbs. in core Sorb area there's are 2 I2a2 'Dinaric-S' without deeper subclades.
this match of mine is R1a, he didn't test deeper subclades.

so probably I-Z16983 and maybe one R1a subclade brought the Serb name to the Balkans, the other subclades are from those earlier Slavic tribes.

You have 2 Serbs in Z-16983 and they are the forefathers of Serbia, lol

You noticed I didn't mention Serbs with I2 haplogroup, because they shouldn't be connected in terms of origin

[vbnetkhio]

You have 2 Serbs in Z-16983 and they are the forefathers of Serbia, lol

You noticed I didn't mention Serbs with I2 haplogroup, because they shouldn't be connected in terms of origin

the common ancestor of all these people lived in 350 AD, yeah, he must've been a Dacian :rolleyes:
https://i.imgur.com/OmfaFK7.png

[Cumansky]

the common ancestor of all these people lived in 350 AD, yeah, he must've been a Dacian :rolleyes:
https://i.imgur.com/OmfaFK7.png

Exactly, is not a joke, learn history

[MagnusDark]

in central Germany there's I2a2Dinaric>PH908>A356/Z16983 which is also found in Serbs. in core Sorb area there's are 2 I2a2 'Dinaric-S' without deeper subclades.
this match of mine is R1a, he didn't test deeper subclades.

so probably I-Z16983 and maybe one R1a subclade brought the Serb name to the Balkans, the other subclades are from those earlier Slavic tribes.

That scenario makes alot more sense. PH908 would make perfect sense given its bottle-necking/founder effect. Seems to be the most common and probably came from an elite.

[Jana]

there was probably a second White Serbia in Ukraine too, since it's mentioned that Hungarians passed through Serbia before coming to Pannonia.
A common match of me and the Sorb is a Rusyn with the surname "Boika". maybe it's connected with the alternate name of White Serbia "Boiki".

Nobody heard about it.
Boiki is related to Celtic tribe of Boii in Czech Republic.

Information about White Serbia/White Serbs is extremely scarce in comparison with White Croatia, nobody even mantions it except DAI.

[vbnetkhio]

Nobody heard about it.
Boiki is related to Celtic tribe of Boii in Czech Republic.

That's one of the theories. But Boii were long gone when Serbs came to that area, i think the theory is actually that "Boiki" was a distorted version of "Boiohaemia". And Serbs didn't settle exactly in Bohemia, but near it.

On the other hand, among east Slavs many words similar to Boiki exist, in Russian бойкий means "smart, quick or brisk" from which comes the nickname and surname "Boiko". Also, in Belarusian mythology , Boiko was one of the forefathers of Slavs, from whom 24 tribes originated.


Information about White Serbia/White Serbs is extremely scarce in comparison with White Croatia, nobody even mantions it except DAI.

"The position of northern Serbia seems to have been known to another
Latin author (Frederick I, patriarch of Aquileia) since the beginning of the 10th century. Namely, in the
document written between ca. 900 and 921, it is said that the
Hungarians moved to Pannonia from Serbia (Ungarorum gens a Servia
egressa in Pannoniam)."

[Dick]

in the year 517 Slavs(Antae,Sclaveni) started invading Byzantium from the direction of modern day Romania. Serbs and Croats come around 100 later (yellow arrow)
https://i.imgur.com/qbfUa4r.jpg

i2a and r1a subclades which are found both in eastern and western Balkans are probably from these earlier Slavs.

Who were there when they arrived? What happened to the scordisci the Goths, the supposedly pure paleo Balkan thracians etc

[War Chef]

"Bojan" is also a very popular Yugoslav name. Probably just coincidence though and not related to the Boii tribe


Who were there when they arrived? What happened to the scordisci the Goths, the supposedly pure paleo Balkan thracians etc

Balkans got hugely depopulated by Justinian's Plague (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_of_Justinian). We're talking once thriving metropolitan areas now completely empty and +50% people dead in a very short time. Slavs filled the power vacuum.

By the way I don't believe Yugoslavs came from the east, most of them came from southern Poland through this place, a narrow passage between Alps and Carpathians.

https://i.imgur.com/OlX8rTx.png

[Lucas]

Who were there when they arrived? What happened to the scordisci the Goths, the supposedly pure paleo Balkan thracians etc

About half of you is from them. They are living still.

[vbnetkhio]

Who were there when they arrived? What happened to the scordisci the Goths, the supposedly pure paleo Balkan thracians etc

Scordisci and Thracians were Romanised and Hellenized, so they were Greeks and Vlachs when Slavs arrived.

Goths left a pretty strong genetic influence imo, there is a lot of i1 and North Sea admixture all over the Balkans, even in more isolated areas. i think they refuged in the mountains from Avar invasions and the Justinian plague, and somehow assimilated into Vlachs and Albanians.

[Dick]

About half of you is from them. They are living still.

Luk :rolleyes:

[Dick]

Scordisci and Thracians were Romanised and Hellenized, so they were Greeks and Vlachs when Slavs arrived.

Goths left a pretty strong genetic influence imo, there is a lot of i1 and North Sea admixture all over the Balkans, even in more isolated areas. i think they refuged in the mountains from Avar invasions and the Justinian plague, and somehow assimilated into Vlachs and Albanians.

That’s why I meant. The population was already mutty before slavs and not paleo Balkan

[vbnetkhio]

"Bojan" is also a very popular Yugoslav name. Probably just coincidence though and not related to the Boii tribe



Balkans got hugely depopulated by Justinian's Plague (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plague_of_Justinian). We're talking once thriving metropolitan areas now completely empty and +50% people dead in a very short time. Slavs filled the power vacuum.

By the way I don't believe Yugoslavs came from the east, most of them came from southern Poland through this place, a narrow passage between Alps and Carpathians.



there were Slavs coming from both directions. read this article:

http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/zvwas/zvwas_2.htm


One of the best-known finds on the territory of northern Yugoslavia, indicating links between the Baltic Slavs and the western Ukraine, are silver jewels from a prince's tomb at Čadjavica (seventh century).

http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/zvwas/zvwas_043.jpg

[vbnetkhio]

The population was already mutty before slavs and not paleo Balkan

yes.

[War Chef]

there were Slavs coming from both directions. read this article:

http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/zvwas/zvwas_2.htm



http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/zvwas/zvwas_043.jpg

Correct. In the case of eastern Slavs (Bulgarians) they are mostly Antes. Slavs with Gothic and Sarmatian substrate.

In fact I'm convinced Bulgarians would cluster west of Yugoslavs had Bulgarians not picked up lots of Byzantine west-Asian stuff during Byzantine era.

[Voyt]

By the way I don't believe Yugoslavs came from the east, most of them came from southern Poland through this place, a narrow passage between Alps and Carpathians.



They could have originally come from the east, but through the Hungarian way

The two concepts aren't mutually exclusive

[Voyt]

Please don't make me laugh, calling this butchered banana land ''Greater Croatia''. And Herzegovina belongs to another country.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9e/Kingdom_of_Croatia.png/1024px-Kingdom_of_Croatia.png

Croatia at the height of its power, 1024.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Croatia_(925%E2%80%931102)

Croats were merely brothers of Serbs, who chose to accept Latin influence as opposed to stay with their Slavic ethos.

West herzegovines were part of this Croat ethnogenesis

Majority of Bosnia after the migration period was definitely still Serb though

[Dick]

There were already Slavs in present day Hungary ; Szolad samples

[Jana]

Croats were merely brothers of Serbs, who chose to accept Latin influence as opposed to stay with their Slavic ethos.

West herzegovines were part of this Croat ethnogenesis

Majority of Bosnia after the migration period was definitely still Serb though

Historical Bosnia has nothing to do with most of territory of present day BiH.

[Voyt]

Historical Bosnia has nothing to do with most of territory of present day BiH.

It should be obvious what I meant; majority of the territorial extent of what is now BiH was filled with people who considered themselves as Serbs post-migration period

[Jana]

It should be obvious what I meant; majority of the territorial extent of what is now BiH was filled with people who considered themselves as Serbs post-migration period

Absolutely not. They are genetically closer to Croats.

[vbnetkhio]

Y-Dna haplogroup - R1a
mt-dna - U5

his cousin, uploaded by the same account is i-p37 (i2)

[Voyt]

Absolutely not. They are genetically closer to Croats.

Like I said, genetics means very little, because those who considered themselves as Serbs 1500 years ago converted to Bogomolism and Catholicism while Serbs spread their namesake to various different Romance and Balkan groups, solely because of extenuating circumstances like the Ottomans and Orthodoxy

[Jana]

Like I said, genetics means very little, because those who considered themselves as Serbs 1500 years ago converted to Bogomolism and Catholicism while Serbs spread their namesake to various different Romance and Balkan groups, solely because of extenuating circumstances like the Ottomans and Orthodoxy

Nobody considered themself anything 1500 years ago, dumbass. Ethnic identity is 19th century concept.

[Voyt]

Nobody considered themself anything 1500 years ago, dumbass. Ethnic identity is 19th century concept.

That's just a highly dumb statement, even from you. You must be confusing nationalist sentiment with ethnic identity.

Any group of people can be an ethnic group, no matter the size, and people can be part of multiple ethnic groups

Modern Croats are part of the national Croatia ethnic group, their regional identity ethnic group, their religious ethnic group, etc

[Leto]

That's just a highly dumb statement, even from you. You must be confusing nationalist sentiment with ethnic identity.

Any group of people can be an ethnic group, no matter the size, and people can be part of multiple ethnic groups

Modern Croats are part of the national Croatia ethnic group, their regional identity ethnic group, their religious ethnic group, etc
I agree but the word ethnic is not necessary in the last sentence. Regional and religious identities are different from ethnic. A Catholic Bavarian is ethnically German but he doesn't have a Protestant (religious) or Northern German identity (regional).

[vbnetkhio]

Nobody considered themself anything 1500 years ago, dumbass. Ethnic identity is 19th century concept.

they had a name for their language and ethnic group, it was just less important and changed more easily

[Leto]

Nobody considered themself anything 1500 years ago, dumbass. Ethnic identity is 19th century concept.
Lol. Tribal identity (which is basically ethnic) has existed since ever.

[Jana]

they had a name for their language and ethnic group, it was just less important and changed more easily

There is no clear proof of what they were and how Bosnian identity developed. Offshoot of Croatian/Serb, mix of both, or just hey descend from first Slavic wave into Balkans.
My opinion is leaning towards that, I believe (for now) dinaric Slavs descend mostly from Sclavenians who came trough eastern Balkan route or Pannonia with Avars.
Croats and Serbs came later from west Slavic lands and united these Slavs and natives under their names as they were obviously military capable groups, Croats especially.

[Jana]

Slovenians and north Croats seem to descend from groups of Great Moravian state, on the other hand. Caranthanians, Pannonians etc.

[Jana]

Lol. Tribal identity (which is basically ethnic) has existed since ever.

And there is extremely little evidence (few quotations taken out of context) of Bosnia being Serb land ethnically.
Neither are there any relevant archeological remains of early Serbs in pre-Ottoman Bosnia.
My guess is they were occupying southeastern Bosnia which is part of their early core and the rest is debatable.

[vbnetkhio]

Lol. Tribal identity (which is basically ethnic) has existed since ever.

yes. but it became way less important somewhere in the early medieval times. maybe when feudalism began. and then in the 19th century we started being "tribal" again.

[Pribislav]

And there is extremely little evidence (few quotations taken out of context) of Bosnia being Serb land ethnically.
Neither are there any relevant archeological remains of early Serbs in pre-Ottoman Bosnia.
My guess is they were occupying southeastern Bosnia which is part of their early core and the rest is debatable.

Bosnian medieval rulers recogized themselves and own subjects inhabitants of Bosnia as Serbs. You can see
example on my signature.

[Leto]

yes. but it became way less important somewhere in the early medieval times. maybe when feudalism began. and then in the 19th century we started being "tribal" again.
I don't know, for example we (including modern Ukraine and Belarus) have been Russians since the middle ages, even before the Mongol invasion.

[Leto]

And there is extremely little evidence (few quotations taken out of context) of Bosnia being Serb land ethnically.
Neither are there any relevant archeological remains of early Serbs in pre-Ottoman Bosnia.
My guess is they were occupying southeastern Bosnia which is part of their early core and the rest is debatable.
I'm not an expert but my guess is that Bosniakdom was a post Ottoman development.

[Ford]

I'm not an expert but my guess is that Bosniakdom was a post Ottoman development.

Boşnak is what the Ottomans called all Bosnians, regardless of religion. From a historic standpoint, it's basically synonymous with the modern term Bosnian (or Bosanac).

[Pribislav]

Boşnak is what the Ottomans called all Bosnians, regardless of religion. From a historic standpoint, it's basically synonymous with the modern term Bosnian.

Yes, and Bosniaks as ethnicity of muslim inhabitants of Bosnia and Herzegovina is political creatiaon of Muhamed Filipović and Alija Izetbegović in 1990s.

[Jana]

I'm not an expert but my guess is that Bosniakdom was a post Ottoman development.

Yes, but there was medieval Bosnian identity too.

[Voyt]

Bosnian medieval rulers recogized themselves and own subjects inhabitants of Bosnia as Serbs. You can see
example on my signature.

Don't bother, Croats can't do history because they can't read it
So they just dismiss it as non-existent
See no evil, hear no evil
:haha:
She probably doesn't even know that "White" Serbs and "White" Croats stands for "West" Serbs and "West" Croats, implying that they are not the source population, but a splitting off population. And yet, it's the "southern" serbs and croats that merely refer to themselves as...Serbs and Croats. Maybe because they were the original group from the east all along?

The notion that a small offshoot group from the north could just barge in and unite a bunch of disparate tribes spanning hundreds of kilometers because they had some unexplained authority is ludicrous

And yet, "White Croatia" doesn't exist at all today in the north, and "White Serbia" is reduced to a few tens of thousands of people.

[Jana]

Bosnian medieval rulers recogized themselves and own subjects inhabitants of Bosnia as Serbs. You can see
example on my signature.

Not really. It's taken out of context and they have been ruling Serbian lands during certain amount of time, too.

[Leto]

Yes, but there was medieval Bosnian identity too.
Then why could they not have reverted to the pre Ottoman understanding of themselves once the occupation was over? Especially in the 20th century. Why keep clinging to Islam as a cultural marker?

[Mingle]

Yes, and Bosniaks as ethnicity of muslim inhabitants of Bosnia and Herzegovina is political creatiaon of Muhamed Filipović and Alija Izetbegović in 1990s.But the concept of Bosniaks being a distinct ethnicity was first brought up and promoted by Austria-Hungary (specifically Bani Kallay) to divide South Slavs. It may not have picked up momentum until later though.

https://books.google.com/books?id=SmAxBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA155&lpg=PA155&dq=b%C3%A9ni+k%C3%A1llay+bosniak&source=bl&ots=3pHQrvYv80&sig=hvBDghICQE-ObKpkegfnx_CxnQA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjD2rmbk9XXAhXr8YMKHXBPDCUQ6AEITjAK#v=on epage&q=b%C3%A9ni%20k%C3%A1llay%20bosniak&f=false

[Jana]

Don't bother, Croats can't do history because they can't read it
So they just dismiss it as non-existent
See no evil, hear no evil
:haha:
She probably doesn't even know that "White" Serbs and "White" Croats stands for "West" Serbs and "West" Croats, implying that they are not the source population, but a splitting off population. And yet, it's the "southern" serbs and croats that merely refer to themselves as...Serbs and Croats. Maybe because they were the original group from the east all along?

The notion that a small offshoot group from the north could just barge in and unite a bunch of disparate tribes spanning hundreds of kilometers is ludicrous

Sarmatian theory? Irrelevant if true, we have little to none Iranic genetics.

[Mingle]

yes. but it became way less important somewhere in the early medieval times. maybe when feudalism began. and then in the 19th century we started being "tribal" again.I don't think it became less important during feudal times. It was always a relatively plastic identity until recently.

[Leto]

Bosniakdom is basically meaningless without Islam and Turkish LARPing. The same race, language, many similar cultural features. It's like being a Yazidi without the religion - one simply becomes another Kurd.

[Pribislav]

Not really. It's taken out of context and they have been ruling Serbian lands during certain amount of time, too.

Early Bosnia was created on territory of early Serbian medieval state. Early Bosnia was triangle between Sarajevo, Travnik and Tuzla. Croatia was more western of that area, border between Serbia and Croatia in early middle age were on Vrbas and Cetina rivers.
Matej Ninoslav lived in 13th century and in his charter to Dubrovčani he call inhabitants of Bosnia Serbs and Dubrovčani Vlachs. In 13th century Bosnia was not much bigger than proto-Bosnia. East Herzegovina and Raška became part of Bosnia in second half of 14th century in the time of Tvrtko's rule.

[Jana]

Then why could they not have reverted to the pre Ottoman understanding of themselves once the occupation was over? Especially in the 20th century. Why keep clinging to Islam as a cultural marker?

Because by adopting Islam they totally abandoned cherishing of medieval Bosnian history. Islam doesn't allow any identification with non Islamic past.
Only Bosnian Croats preserved memory of old Bosnian Kingdom, especially Francisian monks, while muslims and orthodox didn't care about it at all (because their religion didn't allow them to)

Until very recently you could find Bosnian royal names only among Catholics (Croats), while Orthodox (Serbs) prefered names of Serbian medieval Empire and muslims Arabic or Turkish/Persian names.

[Ford]

Then why could they not have reverted to the pre Ottoman understanding of themselves once the occupation was over? Especially in the 20th century. Why keep clinging to Islam as a cultural marker?

How could they revert to an understanding they had no concept of? They were for all intents and purposes no different than Turks. Most noblemen weren't even of Turkish descent, but Slavic. Basically a self-occupation and spiritual assimilation.

[Jana]

Bosniakdom is basically meaningless without Islam and Turkish LARPing. The same race, language, many similar cultural features. It's like being a Yazidi without the religion - one simply becomes another Kurd.

Bosniakdom makes sense only if Catholics and Orthodox will start considering themself Bosniaks.
And it won't happen. It's unsolvable riddle for now.

[Jana]

Early Bosnia was created on territory of early Serbian medieval state. Early Bosnia was triangle between Sarajevo, Travnik and Tuzla. Croatia was more western of that area, border between Serbia and Croatia in early middle age were on Vrbas and Cetina rivers.
Matej Ninoslav lived in 13th century and in his charter to Dubrovčani he call inhabitants of Bosnia Serbs and Dubrovčani Vlachs. In 13th century Bosnia was not much bigger than proto-Bosnia. East Herzegovina and Raška became part of Bosnia in second half of 14th century in the time of Tvrtko's rule.

Re-posting Mingle post from another thread:


Multiple letters from Ban Kulin clearly reference his subjects as Serbs when distinguishing them from Vlachs. Their language is also referenced to be Serbian by Stefan Kotromanić in another letter.
The Serb vs. Vlach distinction is not originally from Bosnia, but rather from Serbia. The first instance of these names being used is in the document of the Grand Principality of Serbia (known as "Rascia" back then by Westerners) from Stefan to Dubrovnik around he year 1215. So basically the distinction between "Srblin" and "Vlah" came to Bosnia from Serbia under the complicity of the Dubrovnik public office. The document can be recognized to have been written by Paskal. He had written two of Matej Ninoslav's documents in 1240 and 1249. Matej Ninoslav's first document was written before 1235 by notary Desoje. Also, a document sent by Ban Kulin in 1189 (which is older than Ninoslav's document) doesn't recognize the name "Srblin" or even "Vlah". The reason for why the Dubrovnik notaries identified Bosnia with Serbs may have been Serbia's leading position in the Slavic continental hinterland. This was around the time that Serbia had conquered Hum, Travunja, and Duklja while Bosnia was a small state.

According to M. Kuljbakin, "the ortography of Miroslav's Gospel differs significantly from Serbian Church monuments, such as Vukan's Gospel (Vukanovo evandelje), and approaches those old Croatian Cyrillic charters of Ban Kulin, Matej Ninoslav, and others.


The Pope sent a letter in 1188 to the bishop of Dubrovnik where he acknowledges all old rights of the Dubrovnik church. In the letter, he mentions Serbian Bosnia: "regnum Servilie, quod est Bosna" (Serbian kingdom of Bosnia). That was in the time of Ban Kulin.
During the time that the papal decrees were written where Bosnia was referenced as part of Serbia, Bosnia was in fact an independent entity and not part of Serbia. These were written during the reigns of Ban Kulin and Ban Matej Ninoslav. The reason for this confusion is likely because of not only the Dubrovnik public office using the "Srbin" and "Vlah" distinction, but also because of Bosnia's previous position where it was adjacent to Serbia and influenced by Serbia before it eventually started its own kingdom. Since Serbia was a powerful state in that area and Bosnia was still developing as one, Bosnia being mentioned as a Serbian state is indicative of Serbia's influence in that region. It should be noted once again that besides these three documents made in Dubrovnik, the inhabitants of Bosnia are never implied to be Serbs.


Tvrtko sees himself as a Serb when he says "by the Grace of God King of the Serbs, Bosnia, Pomorje and the Western Areas"
He only did that so he could claim continuity with the Nemanjić Dynasty. Even though he actually did have partial Serb ancestry (through his Serbian grandmother Jelisaveta), he only emphasized on it so he could claim heir to the throne, not because he saw himself as a Serb.

[Leto]

Wow, Mingle seems like a great Pakistani expert in the Balkans xD

[Jana]

Wow, Mingle seems like a great Pakistani expert in the Balkans xD

He actually is, and he picked up this information from Bosnian Croat forums where they are debunking most common Serbian myths.

[Leto]

He actually is, and he picked up this information from Bosnian Croat forums where they are debunking most common Serbian myths.
Well, nothing against him but even I as a Slav have far less interest in Serbian and Croatian history (including genetic history by the way) than him, a Pakistani living in America.

I just learned to discuss those Balkan GEDmatch results and all the rest because they are so often posted here and even cause of good amount of controversy. But that's fine, after all they are still somehow related to us, Eastern Slavs and Eastern Europeans in general.

For lolz :D :
Mingle can become an honorary Slav, even an honorary Belarusian if he fully embraces the specific quarter of his ancestry and confidently denounces one nasty ideology that is written with a capital I. Of course accepting Christ would be ideal but that can't be done by force.

[Dick]

Stefan Dushan’s code.
http://serbiasos.blogspot.com/2012/05/history-of-serbia-code-of-tsar-dushan.html?m=1

75. For Fighting
A fight between villages, 50 perpers, between Vlachs and Albanians, 100 perpers. And of this fine one half to the Tsar, and one half to the lord owning the village.

80. On the Vlachs and Albanians
In a village where a Vlach or an Albanian stay, another following him shall not stay in that village. If that one stay by force, let him pay a fine and for the grass he has grazed.

[Voyt]

He actually is, and he picked up this information from Bosnian Croat forums where they are debunking most common Serbian myths.

How can they debunk myths, let alone facts, when they can't even read ancient historic Serb documents?

[Pribislav]

Re-posting Mingle post from another thread:


The Serb vs. Vlach distinction is not originally from Bosnia, but rather from Serbia. The first instance of these names being used is in the document of the Grand Principality of Serbia (known as "Rascia" back then by Westerners) from Stefan to Dubrovnik around he year 1215. So basically the distinction between "Srblin" and "Vlah" came to Bosnia from Serbia under the complicity of the Dubrovnik public office. The document can be recognized to have been written by Paskal. He had written two of Matej Ninoslav's documents in 1240 and 1249. Matej Ninoslav's first document was written before 1235 by notary Desoje. Also, a document sent by Ban Kulin in 1189 (which is older than Ninoslav's document) doesn't recognize the name "Srblin" or even "Vlah". The reason for why the Dubrovnik notaries identified Bosnia with Serbs may have been Serbia's leading position in the Slavic continental hinterland. This was around the time that Serbia had conquered Hum, Travunja, and Duklja while Bosnia was a small state.

According to M. Kuljbakin, "the ortography of Miroslav's Gospel differs significantly from Serbian Church monuments, such as Vukan's Gospel (Vukanovo evandelje), and approaches those old Croatian Cyrillic charters of Ban Kulin, Matej Ninoslav, and others.


During the time that the papal decrees were written where Bosnia was referenced as part of Serbia, Bosnia was in fact an independent entity and not part of Serbia. These were written during the reigns of Ban Kulin and Ban Matej Ninoslav. The reason for this confusion is likely because of not only the Dubrovnik public office using the "Srbin" and "Vlah" distinction, but also because of Bosnia's previous position where it was adjacent to Serbia and influenced by Serbia before it eventually started its own kingdom. Since Serbia was a powerful state in that area and Bosnia was still developing as one, Bosnia being mentioned as a Serbian state is indicative of Serbia's influence in that region. It should be noted once again that besides these three documents made in Dubrovnik, the inhabitants of Bosnia are never implied to be Serbs.


He only did that so he could claim continuity with the Nemanjić Dynasty. Even though he actually did have partial Serb ancestry (through his Serbian grandmother Jelisaveta), he only emphasized on it so he could claim heir to the throne, not because he saw himself as a Serb.

Are you aware that Matej Ninoslav's charter is charter to the Duvrovčani and refers on their free trade in Bosnia? There is nothing to do with Raška.

There is no any medieval document of Bosnian rulers and noblemans written on chakavian (Croatian), all are on shtokavian (Serbian), sorry!

[Jana]

How can they debunk myths, let alone facts, when they can't even read ancient historic Serb documents?

Which documents?

[Jana]

Well, nothing against him but even I as a Slav have far less interest in Serbian and Croatian history (including genetic history by the way) than him, a Pakistani living in America.

I just learned to discuss those Balkan GEDmatch results and all the results because they are so often posted here and even cause of good amount of controversy. But that's fine, they are still somehow related to us, Eastern Slavs and Eastern Europeans in general.

I am honored by his interest.

[Mingle]

He actually is, and he picked up this information from Bosnian Croat forums where they are debunking most common Serbian myths.The part about Ninoslav and some other bits were from there, but most of it was from different sources on Google Books.

[Jana]

Early Christianity in Bosnia

Christianity in Bosnia first arrived via the Romans. Once Roman rule ended and Christianity more or less dissipated, a second wave of Christianity arrived in Bosnia via the Croats of Dalmatia. Bosnia's church architecture, liturgical language, script, and church jurisdiction are evidence of Christianity coming from the Croats.

The Bosnian diocese was under jurisdiction together with regions part of modern day Croatia. The Bosnian diocese was first under the domain of the Metropolitan of Split, then of Bar (1089), then of Split again (1137), and then a few decades later under the archdiocese of Dubrovnik (before 1185).

Besides the Bosnian diocese, eight other church districts existed in Medieval Bosnia. Northwestern Bosnia (west of the Vrbas River) was under the jurisdiction of the Archdiocese of Zagreb. The Diocese of Knin and Krbava and the Archdiocese of Split had jurisdiction over parts of southwestern Bosnia. The Diocese of Duvno, Makarska, Ston, and Trebinje controlled the central and southern parts of the country.

Bosnians wrote in the Glagolitic script similar to Catholic Croatia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hval%27s_Codex

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrvoje%27s_Missal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humac_tablet

https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mihanovi%C4%87ev_odlomak_Apostola

https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gr%C5%A1kovi%C4%87ev_odlomak_apostola

The remnants of the diocesan priests were known as glagoljaši who got their name from their usage of the Glagolitic script and Old Slavonic (as a liturgical language) in Bosnia. Once the Franciscans came to Bosnia, the glagoljaši continued to serve the faithful. Since the glagoljaši were less educated than the Franciscans, they served as their assistants.

The Franciscans were given permission by Mehmet II to stay among other Catholics in Bosnia, but Catholics in Bosnia generally weren't treated well (compared to the Orthodox and especially Muslim populations) since the Ottoman Empire was more often at war with Catholic states such as the Habsburgs. Persecutions of them lead to some conversions to Islam with others emigrating. One major exodus of Catholics from Bosnia to northern Croatia took place during the Habsburg-Ottoman Wars from 1683-1699.

[Ford]

Well, nothing against him but even I as a Slav have far less interest in Serbian and Croatian history (including genetic history by the way) than him, a Pakistani living in America.

I just learned to discuss those Balkan GEDmatch results and all the rest because they are so often posted here and even cause of good amount of controversy. But that's fine, they are still somehow related to us, Eastern Slavs and Eastern Europeans in general.

He's a great and valuable poster (and probably the closest thing to objectivity we'll get regarding any of these Balkan topics) and his interests stretches far beyond the Balkans. It's just that a lot of the topics here are about the Balkans.

[Jana]

The part about Ninoslav and some other bits were from there, but most of it was from different sources on Google Books.

Great work, and thank you for referencing sources you took information from.

[Pribislav]

Early Christianity in Bosnia

Christianity in Bosnia first arrived via the Romans. Once Roman rule ended and Christianity more or less dissipated, a second wave of Christianity arrived in Bosnia via the Croats of Dalmatia. Bosnia's church architecture, liturgical language, script, and church jurisdiction are evidence of Christianity coming from the Croats.

The Bosnian diocese was under jurisdiction together with regions part of modern day Croatia. The Bosnian diocese was first under the domain of the Metropolitan of Split, then of Bar (1089), then of Split again (1137), and then a few decades later under the archdiocese of Dubrovnik (before 1185).

Besides the Bosnian diocese, eight other church districts existed in Medieval Bosnia. Northwestern Bosnia (west of the Vrbas River) was under the jurisdiction of the Archdiocese of Zagreb. The Diocese of Knin and Krbava and the Archdiocese of Split had jurisdiction over parts of southwestern Bosnia. The Diocese of Duvno, Makarska, Ston, and Trebinje controlled the central and southern parts of the country.

Bosnians wrote in the Glagolitic script similar to Catholic Croatia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hval%27s_Codex

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrvoje%27s_Missal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humac_tablet

https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mihanovi%C4%87ev_odlomak_Apostola

https://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gr%C5%A1kovi%C4%87ev_odlomak_apostola

The remnants of the diocesan priests were known as glagoljaši who got their name from their usage of the Glagolitic script and Old Slavonic (as a liturgical language) in Bosnia. Once the Franciscans came to Bosnia, the glagoljaši continued to serve the faithful. Since the glagoljaši were less educated than the Franciscans, they served as their assistants.

The Franciscans were given permission by Mehmet II to stay among other Catholics in Bosnia, but Catholics in Bosnia generally weren't treated well (compared to the Orthodox and especially Muslim populations) since the Ottoman Empire was more often at war with Catholic states such as the Habsburgs. Persecutions of them lead to some conversions to Islam with others emigrating. One major exodus of Catholics from Bosnia to northern Croatia took place during the Habsburg-Ottoman Wars from 1683-1699.

Catholicism arrived in Bosnia in 13th century with Francicsans. First Catholics were Saxon miners, later some natives (in central Bosnia) adopted Catholicism.
Read "Razvoj duhovnog života u Bosni pod uticajem turske vladavine" of Ivo Andrić who was Bosnian Catholic.

[vbnetkhio]

...

so basically, whenever Serbs or Serbia are mentioned, there is some crazy explanation why it doesn't mean Serb but Croat? :scratch:

seems to be a little too many of these mentions for them all to be "fake".

i've also read such explanations by Croatian historians on why "Serb" in "De Administrando Imperio" doesn't actually mean "Serb". :rolleyes:

[Pribislav]

so basically, whenever Serbs or Serbia are mentioned, there is some crazy explanation why it doesn't mean Serb but Croat? :scratch:

seems to be a little too many of these mentions for them all to be "fake".

i've also read such explanations by Croatian historians on why "Serb" in "De Administrando Imperio" doesn't actually mean "Serb". :rolleyes:

Croatian (read Jesuit) historiography is full of lies and manipulations. If is sun outside they say it's not day but dark night and vice versa.

[Pribislav]

But the concept of Bosniaks being a distinct ethnicity was first brought up and promoted by Austria-Hungary (specifically Bani Kallay) to divide South Slavs. It may not have picked up momentum until later though.

https://books.google.com/books?id=SmAxBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA155&lpg=PA155&dq=b%C3%A9ni+k%C3%A1llay+bosniak&source=bl&ots=3pHQrvYv80&sig=hvBDghICQE-ObKpkegfnx_CxnQA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjD2rmbk9XXAhXr8YMKHXBPDCUQ6AEITjAK#v=on epage&q=b%C3%A9ni%20k%C3%A1llay%20bosniak&f=false

Benjamin Kallay wanted to create Bosnian nation of all 3 religious groups in Bosnia. His attempts failed.

[Dick]

Mingle is a CIA

[Insuperable]

so basically, whenever Serbs or Serbia are mentioned, there is some crazy explanation why it doesn't mean Serb but Croat? :scratch:

seems to be a little too many of these mentions for them all to be "fake".


i've also read such explanations by Croatian historians on why "Serb" in "De Administrando Imperio" doesn't actually mean "Serb". :rolleyes:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?275143-What-ethnicity-were-the-people-of-Medieval-Bosnia&p=5750014&viewfull=1#post5750014
Let's then acknowledge then that when Greek historians wrote about Croats and they obviously meant to write Serb wrote actually about Croats. Note: there is error, it is not 1912 obviously, I forgot what was the actual year.

As for Matej Ninoslav and his charter Pribislav likes to boast which in fact is a supplement to the main charter.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?275143-What-ethnicity-were-the-people-of-Medieval-Bosnia&p=5748852&viewfull=1#post5748852

[vbnetkhio]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?275143-What-ethnicity-were-the-people-of-Medieval-Bosnia&p=5750014&viewfull=1#post5750014
Let's then acknowledge then that when Greek historians wrote about Croats and they obviously meant to write Serb wrote actually about Croats. Note: there is error, it is not 1912 obviously, I forgot what was the actual year.


He passed through Dubrovnik. Some Croatian kings were granted control of Byzantine Dalmatian possesions, including Dubrovnik, by the Byzantine emperor.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Paganija%2C_Zahumlje%2C_Travunija%2C_Duklja%2C_Cro atian_view.png



As for Matej Ninoslav and his charter Pribislav likes to boast which in fact is a supplement to the main charter.
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?275143-What-ethnicity-were-the-people-of-Medieval-Bosnia&p=5748852&viewfull=1#post5748852

that's a different "debunking" than the one Feiichy posted, whom should i believe?

[ph2ter]

I must admit that before 13th century Bosnia east of Vrbas and north of Neretva rivers was always in some way part of Serbia or under control of Serbia.
Every known historical document testifies this, not only Matej Ninoslav charters.
Einhard from 9th century, DAI from 10th century and Kinnamos from 12th century connect Bosnia with Serbia or Serbs.
When Medieval Bosnia included the lands west of Vrbas (Donji Kraji - Hrvoje Hrvatinić lands), it could no longer use Serbian name in political documents,
because Hrvatinić noble family was of Croatian origin and was very important in Bosnia.
After that, from 14th century Bosnian Medieval political elite started to use Bosniak identification exclusively.

[Pribislav]

I must admit that before 13th century Bosnia east of Vrbas and north of Neretva rivers was always in some way part of Serbia or under control of Serbia.
Every known historical document testifies this, not only Matej Ninoslav charters.
Einhard from 9th century, DAI from 10th century and Kinnamos from 12th century connect Bosnia with Serbia or Serbs.
When Medieval Bosnia included the lands west of Vrbas (Donji Kraji - Hrvoje Hrvatinić lands), it could no longer use Serbian name in political documents,
because Hrvatinić noble family was of Croatian origin and was very important in Bosnia.
After that, from 14th century Bosnian Medieval political elite started to use Bosniak identification exclusively.

I don't deny that present day Bosnia west of Vrbas river was part of Croatia until 1102. But present day western Bosnia was short period part of Bosnia in the middle age, most western part of modern Bosnia Cazinska Krajina was never part of Bosnia in the middle age.
As I said border between Serbs and Croatians was on Vrbas river in the middle age. Many Croatians don't want to accept this, one of many reasons is probably because most of present day Bosnian Croatians live east of Vrbas river.

[War Chef]

Indo-European ser means "to protect, to gaurd"

Avestan/Iranic haraiti, haurvaiti, haraiti, haurvaiti, “he guards”

[Jana]

Not all of eastern Bosnia has much to do with Serbia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usora_(region)

Usora (Latin: Vozora, Hungarian: Ózora) was a semi-independent banate (Duchy) in medieval Bosnia and also an administrative division in Croatia in the union with Hungary. It took its name from the river Usora.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banate_of_S%C3%B3

The Banate of Só (Hungarian: Sói bánság or Sófölde) was an administrative unit (banate) on the southern borders of the Kingdom of Hungary between the 12th and the early 15th centuries. Appointed by the king, it was governed by a ban, who served as both administrative and military leader.

Usora i Soli are not Bosnian lands historically, let alone Serb.

[Pribislav]

Not all of eastern Bosnia has much to do with Serbia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usora_(region)

Usora (Latin: Vozora, Hungarian: Ózora) was a semi-independent banate (Duchy) in medieval Bosnia and also an administrative division in Croatia in the union with Hungary. It took its name from the river Usora.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banate_of_S%C3%B3

The Banate of Só (Hungarian: Sói bánság or Sófölde) was an administrative unit (banate) on the southern borders of the Kingdom of Hungary between the 12th and the early 15th centuries. Appointed by the king, it was governed by a ban, who served as both administrative and military leader.

Usora i Soli are not Bosnian lands historically, let alone Serb.

Wrong.
Usora and Soli were under the direct rule of Serbian kings Dragutin and Milutin from Nemanjiće dynasty.
Usora is quite eastern from Vrbas river where was ethnic border between Serbs and Croatians in the middle age.

Ancestors of Dušan and Bosniensis migrated from Usora to the Lika in 16th century. They were part of group known as "Usorci."
"Usorci" are numerous among Lika Serbs.

[Jana]

Wrong.
Usora and Soli were under the direct rule of Serbian kings Dragutin and Milutin from Nemanjiće dynasty.
Usora is quite eastern from Vrbas river where was ethnic border between Serbs and Croatians in the middle age.

Ancestors of Dušan and Bosniensis migrated from Usora to the Lika in 16th century. They were part of group known as "Usorci."
"Usorci" are numerous among Lika Serbs.

No. Which part of this sentence you don't understand?

Usora (Latin: Vozora, Hungarian: Ózora) was a semi-independent banate (Duchy) in medieval Bosnia and also an administrative division in Croatia in the union with Hungary.


Ban is exclusively Croatian institution.

[Pribislav]

No. Which part of this sentence you don't understand?


Ban is exclusively Croatian institution.

Ban is tittle of Avar origin.

Region Banat in Serbia and Romania is Croatian?

[War Chef]

Romanian/Moldovan metal currency is called Ban

[Jana]

Croatian (read Jesuit) historiography is full of lies and manipulations. If is sun outside they say it's not day but dark night and vice versa.

I don't think there exist ethnic groups with such lack of dignity as Serbs. You are excellent example. But I figured your tactics long ago, you are in agression all the time so we have no time to question to whom actually Serbia belonged trough history. Every chart that ever came out of Croatia is analysied to the core, desperately looking to find any possible mention of Serbs and Serbia. That's why you photographed entire Dubrovnik archive long time ago but couldn't find much except few sporadic mentions of your folk.

When you answer our questions about Serbian history, mentions of Serbian name and Serbian people on territory of Serbia (for example in Šumadija), than we will discuss the rest.
Because so far I see total lack of information about Serbian territory and to whom does it really belongs, or who were actually Serbs and where do they come from.

I'd also ask you to provide archeological or any other kind of documented evidence for Serbian character of Bosnia, because so far outside of upper Podrinje nothing of relevance has been found.

[Jana]

Ban is tittle of Avar origin.

Region Banat in Serbia and Romania is Croatian?

Not it isn't. Region Banat comes from Ban title that Hungarians adopted after Croatia joined Hungarian crown.

[Pribislav]

Not it isn't. Region Banat comes from Ban title that Hungarians adopted after Croatia joined Hungarian crown.

Ban is originally Turkic Avar tittle, deal with it!

Do you want discussion of Turkic/Avar origin of proto-Croatians, about Q haplogroup on Hvar and Brač, and about weird non-Slavic names of Croatian ruling family from Pannonia in 7th century (Kluk, Muhlo, Lovel, Kosen, Tuga and Vuga/Buga)?

[Roy]

I thought that Sorbs / White Serbs strong connection is generally considered as more of a legend than anything else?

[Pribislav]

Ban is originally Turkic Avar tittle, deal with it!

Do you want discussion of Turkic/Avar origin of proto-Croatians, about Q haplogroup on Hvar and Brač, and about weird non-Slavic names of Croatian ruling family from Pannonia in 7th century (Kluk, Muhlo, Lovel, Kosen, Tuga and Vuga/Buga)?

Turkish historian Osman Karatay about Turkic origin of proto-Croatians http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/20Roots/Horvat/KaratayO2003CroatsEn.htm

[War Chef]

I thought that Sorbs / White Serbs strong connection is generally considered as more of a legend than anything else?

In that case both Serbs and Croats have Iranic etymology. Their ruling elite and founders were Iranian Sarmatian tribes.

The word Haravat sounds unmistakably Iranic, and Serboi is a tribe. Coincidence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serboi)? Maybe, but I don't see any other good theories out there.

[Dick]

In that case both Serbs and Croats have Iranic etymology. Their ruling elite and founders were Iranian Sarmatian tribes.

The word Haravat sounds unmistakably Iranic, and Serboi is a tribe. Coincidence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serboi)? Maybe, but I don't see any other good theories out there.

Distance is not close but it's there on Mytrueancestry.com


https://i.imgur.com/9MSsDyQ.jpg

[Roy]

In that case both Serbs and Croats have Iranic etymology. Their ruling elite and founders were Iranian Sarmatian tribes.

The word Haravat sounds unmistakably Iranic, and Serboi is a tribe. Coincidence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serboi)? Maybe, but I don't see any other good theories out there.

Yeah ... but names are often just names slapped from one group into another, or only known from some other group who called these or another people with some terms, or even can evolve indepedently from each other just like some species can take identical forms despite being unrelated or only distantly related.

It is a shame that Early Medieval Slavs left so little in terms of literary work unlike Germanics or Finns (Kalevala). There was no literacy among them during those centuries.

[War Chef]

Yeah ... but names are often just names slapped from one group into another, or only known from some other group who called these or another people with some terms, or even can evolve indepedently from each other just like some species can take identical forms despite being unrelated or only distantly related.

It is a shame that Early Medieval Slavs left so little in terms of literary work unlike Germanics or Finns (Kalevala). There was no literacy among them during those centuries.

Yes it's all about the ruling elite. Just in case some of you have no idea how horse people operated, let me enlighten you.

Treasure of Nagyszentmiklós (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_of_Nagyszentmikl%C3%B3s) is a hoard of Gold found here:
https://i.imgur.com/kzpYwkt.png

One of the inscriptions on a gold bowl writes in Greek:

ΒΟΥΗΛΑ.ΖΟΑΠΑΝ.ΤΕΣΗ.ΔΥΓΕΤΟΙΓΗ.ΒΟΥΤΑΟΥΛ.ΖΩΑΠΑΝ.ΤΑΓΡΟ ΓΗ.ΗΤΖΙΓΗ.ΤΑΙΣΗ

(Transliteration: bouēla zoapan tesē dygetoigē boutaoul zōapan tagrogē ētzigē taisē)

"Jupan Buila [has] all rights, jupan Butaul [has the right of] entering [in] all towns"

https://i.imgur.com/IiTKFml.png

[vbnetkhio]

Not all of eastern Bosnia has much to do with Serbia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usora_(region)

Usora (Latin: Vozora, Hungarian: Ózora) was a semi-independent banate (Duchy) in medieval Bosnia and also an administrative division in Croatia in the union with Hungary. It took its name from the river Usora.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banate_of_S%C3%B3

The Banate of Só (Hungarian: Sói bánság or Sófölde) was an administrative unit (banate) on the southern borders of the Kingdom of Hungary between the 12th and the early 15th centuries. Appointed by the king, it was governed by a ban, who served as both administrative and military leader.

Usora i Soli are not Bosnian lands historically, let alone Serb.

that area is first mentioned as Serbian, Hungarians conquered it later.


The DAI mentions Destinikon as the first among the enumerated cities ("Destinikon, Tzernabouskeï, Megyretous, Dresneïk, Lesnik, Salines, Katera, Desnik") of "baptized Serbia"
Salines = modern day Tuzla

[Voyt]

Not all of eastern Bosnia has much to do with Serbia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usora_(region)

Usora (Latin: Vozora, Hungarian: Ózora) was a semi-independent banate (Duchy) in medieval Bosnia and also an administrative division in Croatia in the union with Hungary. It took its name from the river Usora.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banate_of_S%C3%B3

The Banate of Só (Hungarian: Sói bánság or Sófölde) was an administrative unit (banate) on the southern borders of the Kingdom of Hungary between the 12th and the early 15th centuries. Appointed by the king, it was governed by a ban, who served as both administrative and military leader.

Usora i Soli are not Bosnian lands historically, let alone Serb.

Is the notion that just because you are ruled by someone else, that you are not necessarily relinquishing your ethnicity to those rulers, somehow lost to you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Despotate#/media/File:Serbian_Despotate_(1422)-en.svg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Bosnia#/media/File:Medieval_Bosnian_State_Expansion-en.svg

:picard2:

Otherwise, Croats were common low-class Venetian rats, were common low-class Hungarian rats, were common low-class French rats, were common low-class Austrian rats, were common low-class Nazi rats.

Which, actually, I'm not even opposed to being the truth. Hell, if it required that Bosnian cowards were Crorats all along, I would perfectly be willing to have it be the case that Crorats relinquished their ratdom in favor of selling their ethnicity to the dirtiest power of each century

[Jana]

Is the notion that just because you are ruled by someone else, that you are not necessarily relinquishing your ethnicity to those rulers, somehow lost to you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Despotate#/media/File:Serbian_Despotate_(1422)-en.svg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Bosnia#/media/File:Medieval_Bosnian_State_Expansion-en.svg

:picard2:

Otherwise, Croats were common low-class Venetian rats, were common low-class Hungarian rats, were common low-class French rats, were common low-class Austrian rats, were common low-class Nazi rats.

Which, actually, I'm not even opposed to being the truth. Hell, if it required that Bosnian cowards were Crorats all along, I would perfectly be willing to have it be the case that Crorats relinquished their ratdom in favor of selling their ethnicity to the dirtiest power of each century

Didn't take long to reveal who you are, Serv?

[Voyt]

I don't deny that present day Bosnia west of Vrbas river was part of Croatia until 1102.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srb#Name

What about the town "Srb" ? Just a coincidence?

"According to Croat academic Petar Šimunović, etymology is that Srb is derived from the old Croatian verb "serbati" and denoting the spring of the river Una."

What a convoluted explanation of twists and turns just to arrive at the conclusion that "Serb" is a Croatian word all along :picard1:

[Jana]

Did you ancestors ride out of Krajina on tractors, little one?

[Voyt]

Didn't take long to reveal who you are, Serv?

My father's name is Hungarian derived actually, and my mother's side is "Croatian", but somehow their families were tied to a Serbian identity for centuries. I think they were given land during Hapsburg times and just intermingled with the local Serbs over time. I'm guessing they preferred being on Serbian people's side for some reason (maybe because they could tell that Croats were sold-off souls (prodane duse) ever since the beginning. Personally, I don't really care for south slavic politics that much; I just wish things would go back to pagan times, instead of all these corrupt alliances due to greed and christian bureaucracy.

[Jana]

My father's name is Hungarian derived actually, and my mother's side is "Croatian", but somehow their families were tied to a Serbian identity for centuries. I think they were given land during Hapsburg times and just intermingled with the local Serbs over time. I'm guessing they preferred being on Serbian people's side for some reason (maybe because they could tell that Croats were sold-off souls (prodane duse) ever since the beginning. Personally, I don't really care for south slavic politics that much; I just wish things would go back to pagan times, instead of all these corrupt alliances due to greed and christian bureaucracy.

You are just Ameri-rat, not a Croat that's for sure. Stay where you are.

[vbnetkhio]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srb#Name

What about the town "Srb" ? Just a coincidence?

"According to Croat academic Petar Šimunović, etymology is that Srb is derived from the old Croatian verb "serbati" and denoting the spring of the river Una."

What a convoluted explanation of twists and turns just to arrive at the conclusion that "Serb" is a Croatian word all along :picard1:

ethnic Toponyms and ethnic surnames in 90% cases appear in places where that ethnicity is not in majority, but surrounded by other ethnicities.

think about it, why would a town be named Srb in the middle of Serbian territory.

[Voyt]

You are just Ameri-rat, not a Croat that's for sure. Stay where you are.

I can go wherever I want, much to the chagrin of yourself. I have Croatian citizenship, Bosnian citizenship (due to the fact that I was actually born just south of Krajina in Gradiska; lucky me), can inherit Croatian property upon my father's passing, and can even choose to get Serbian citizenship if I wanted to or live there because I have family living in Vojvodina.

Meanwhile the best you can hope for is being an E.U.'s lapdog while fat alpinid Germans repopulate your villages (which is kinda preferable if you ask me, as they're never gonna stoop so low as to relinquish their identity in favor of being some Croat lapdog (like Crorats did in the Middle Ages, and still do in Germany to this day)

[Jana]

ethnic Toponyms and ethnic surnames in 90% cases appear in places where that ethnicity is not in majority, but surrounded by other ethnicities.

think about it, why would a town be named Srb in the middle of Serbian territory.

Exactly, for a same reason there are Croatian toponyms in Kosovo, Montenegro and even Greece.

[Jana]

I can go wherever I want, much to the chagrin of yourself. I have Croatian citizenship, Bosnian citizenship (due to the fact that I was actually born just south of Krajina in Gradiska; lucky me), can inherit Croatian property upon my father's passing, and can even choose to get Serbian citizenship if I wanted to or live there because I have family living in Vojvodina.

Meanwhile the best you can hope for is being an E.U.'s lapdog while fat Germans repopulate your villages (which is kinda preferable if you ask me, as they're never gonna stoop so low as to relinquish their identity in favor of being some Croat lapdog (like Crorats did in the Middle Ages, and still do in Germany to this day)

You can be a citizen, but it won't protect you from being treated as third-rate citizen by actual Croats. And you certanly would be. Your kind has no passing in area I am from, my dear.
You'd be treated as a nigga. Worse actually, since they aren't treated badly in general.

[Voyt]

You can be a citizen, but it won't protect you from being treated as third-rate citizen by actual Croats. And you certanly would be. Your kind has no passing in area I am from, my dear.
You'd be treated as a nigga. Worse actually, since they aren't treated badly in general.

Haha, I'd feel sorry for you if you weren't so creatively skilled in your delusions (I can definitely see how blacks are treated in your coastal resorts, like Kang Kongs being given their choice of wench by the locals themselves)

You'd think I'd actually choose to live among redneck Ustase fisherman or hunters? If I had to live in Croatia, I could just choose some northwest place where they speak both Kajkavian and Stokavian, and they wouldn't give a fuck about where the hell I was from (just like they didn't give a fuck about Ustase shenanigans during WW2 nor Yugoslavia)

Or hell I could even move to Slovenia with a EU passport, but to be fair their language is kinda cringy, so not for me.

[Jana]

Haha, I'd feel sorry for you if you weren't so creatively skilled in your delusions (I can definitely see how blacks are treated in your coastal resorts, like Kang Kongs being given their choice of wench by the locals themselves)

You'd think I'd actually choose to live among rural Ustase fisherman or hunters? If I had to live in Croatia, I could just choose some northwest place where they speak both Kajkavian and Stokavian, and they wouldn't give a fuck about where the hell I was from (just like they didn't give a fuck about Ustase shenanigans during WW2 nor Yugoslavia)

Or hell I could even move to Slovenia with a EU passport, but to be fair their language is kinda cringy, so not for me.

Your personal frustrations are not my interest. If you think NW Croats are tolerant towards trash like you you are badly mistaken.
They feel the same about you as any other Croats does: feel sorry and disgused by same time.

It seems you descend from some traitor subhumans and now you're frustrated about it. I would be too in your place. Like a Gypsy, not with a place to call his own.
Maybe try your luck among Serbs, as you won't find any here.

[Voyt]

Your personal frustrations are not my interest. If you think NW Croats are tolerant towards trash like you you are badly mistaken.
They feel the same about you as any other Croats does: feel sorry and disgused by same time.

It seems you descend from some traitor subhumans and now you're frustrated about it. I would be too in your place. Like a Gypsy, not with a place to call his own.
Maybe try your luck among Serbs, as you won't find any here.

Don't be so mean to me, darling; you're gonna drive me away just like all those fleeing Crorats when they realized their economy was collapsing and that all their politicians were even dirtier than the Serbs they had just driven away.

And then what're you gonna be left with? You're gonna be forced to waitress half-empty resort towns and endure butt-slaps from Jewish-German hybrids while your boyfriend deals cocaine to survive--and you surely don't want that for yaself (or maybe ya do--who can know about your perversions but you yourself).

Just face it--people like me are the best future you "Croats" can hope for; surely you can't rely on those noble diaspora who are gonna come back in retirement age and collapse your economy some more when they start asking for their pensions (which you already gave out to your brave war-vets, who strangely are increasing in number with every passing year)

[Voyt]

Also, interesting that you mention my "traitor past", because over the past year I discovered that one dude from my paternal line was the son of an Austrian general, and this dude was a Nazi playwright and scriptwriter who actually was the leading writer for a famous (at the time) Nazi propaganda movie. Turns out this dude (who had married a northern German wench), killed himself, in the year 1945. I think you can guess why.

And most of the families who share my mother's surname are Croatian.

So if I descend from a line of traitors, then I also descend from a line of double-traitors, who had allegiances all over the place. I guess I'm a true Croat in that case, in which case you should be more than happy to accept me amongst your disgusting cohort, because my history shows for itself that my family was much more effective at your line of double-and-triple-crossing than even you claim to be.

Doubly especially given that I don't even consider myself as a Serb (I just kinda respect more of them more than I do most Croats).

[Jana]

Don't be so mean to me, darling; you're gonna drive me away just like all those fleeing Crorats when they realized their economy was collapsing and that all their politicians were even dirtier than the Serbs they had just driven away.

And then what're you gonna be left with? You're gonna be forced to waitress half-empty resort towns and endure butt-slaps from Jewish-German hybrids while your boyfriend deals cocaine to survive--and you surely don't want that for yaself (or maybe ya do--who can know about your perversions but you yourself).

Just face it--people like me are the best future you "Croats" can hope for; surely you can't rely on those noble diaspora who are gonna come back in retirement age and collapse your economy some more when they start asking for their pensions (which you already gave out to your brave war-vets, who strangely are increasing in number with every passing year)

You are in diaspora because your family had it bad here. It's lowest-class that ''flees'' and you aren't really needed here.
Don't remember when was last time I saw finest-grade Croat living somewhere in the west.

Those like me who aren't from bottom would never leave to live in shithole you call US.
And don't come here for vacation, we're full.

[Jana]

Also, interesting that you mention my "traitor past", because over the past year I discovered that one dude from my paternal line was the son of an Austrian general, and this dude was a Nazi playwright and scriptwriter who actually was the leading writer for a famous (at the time) Nazi propaganda movie. Turns out this dude (who had married a northern German wench), killed himself, in the year 1945. I think you can guess why.

And most of the families who share my mother's surname are Croatian.

So if I descend from a line of traitors, then I also descend from a line of double-traitors, who had allegiances all over the place. I guess I'm a true Croat in that case, in which case you should be more than happy to accept me amongst your disgusting cohort, because my history shows for itself that my family was much more effective at your line of double-and-triple-crossing than even you claim to be.

Doubly especially given that I don't even consider myself as a Serb (I just kinda respect more of them more than I do most Croats).

You're a trash devoid of identity and self-respect. Luckily true Serb nationalist would humiliate you like any Croat nationalist would - there is really nothing more miserable than trying to lick the balls of rival.
And both would have to lower themself by accepting low-life rats, which for most isn't an option.

[Voyt]

You are in diaspora because your family had it bad here. It's lowest-class that ''flees'' and you aren't really needed here.
Don't remember when was last time I saw finest-grade Croat living somewhere in the west.

Those like me who aren't from bottom would never leave to live in shithole you call US.
And don't come here for vacation, we're full.

Had it bad = owned two houses?

Like I said, they identified as Serb which is why they moved out




You're a trash devoid of identity and self-respect. Luckily true Serb nationalist would humiliate you like any Croat nationalist would - there is really nothing more miserable than trying to lick the balls of rival.
And both would have to lower themself by accepting low-life rats, which for most isn't an option.

Luckily I don't consider myself neither Serb nor Croat, and if I were really trash, then why do I have more options than you? Literally if I wanted to I have multiple different nations I could move to right this moment, because I have family in southwest Germany, in Ireland, in Australia, in Serbia, in Bosnia, in Croatia.

Would you trash Tito like you're trashing me? He didn't identify with any nationality and yet he fucked your future to kingdom-come

Trash him, not me, but you already praised him a few days ago because you just can't help but lick the toes of those who rule over you. no matter the source

You outsourced your self-respect centuries ago; your current self is just a manifestation of all your ancestors' lack of self-respect

[Jana]

Like I said, they identified as Serb which is why they moved out

Thanks for posting this, it's now clear why re you so emotional and butthurt. What a shame hahaha. You descend from traitors, lowest of the low, who identified as Serbs to get more benefits in Yugoslavia, betraying their origins and nation. There is nothing more disgusting than that so I really understand your anger. Because this kind would be treated worse than any Serbs would ever be. In most countries they would end up on the rope.


Trash him, not me, but you already praised him a few days ago because you just can't help but lick the toes of those who rule over you. no matter the source

I never praised Tito, stupid imbecile. I just said he showed middle finger to Stalin and he did. Tito was a Croat and identified as such.

[Voyt]

Thanks for posting this, it's now clear why re you so emotional and butthurt. What a shame hahaha. You descend from traitors, lowest of the low, who identified as Serbs to get more benefits in Yugoslavia, betraying their origins and nation. There is nothing more disgusting than that so I really understand your anger. Because this kind would be treated worse than any Serbs would ever be. In most countries they would end up on the rope.

No, have you been reading my posts at all? I said their ancestors were living in Croatia for centuries, at least since Hapsburg times. For some reason they got land near Krajina or chose to live near Krajina and gradually developed an Orthodox identity. Like I said, my father has Hungarian-derived name while my mother has a name which over 70 Croatian people have but only two Serbian do (my mother's side that lives in Vojvodina, most likely) (according to actacroatica.com and forebears.io and prezime.net )

It's not as if they suddenly decided to switch to "Serbian loyalty" just on a whim during Yugoslavia times; that's ridiculous, and reveals how disingenuous you are.

They over decades witnessed first-hand perhaps that the Serbs were more honorable as a people than the Crorats





I never praised Tito, stupid imbecile. I just said he showed middle finger to Stalin and he did. Tito was a Croat and identified as such.

Right, he was a Croat who barely spoke kajkavian and stokavian and had a drunk Croat father but a Slovenian mother; hmm maybe he sucked at his own language because he hated his origin? I wouldn't blame him

[Maintenance]

Thanks for posting this, it's now clear why re you so emotional and butthurt. What a shame hahaha. You descend from traitors, lowest of the low, who identified as Serbs to get more benefits in Yugoslavia, betraying their origins and nation. There is nothing more disgusting than that so I really understand your anger. Because this kind would be treated worse than any Serbs would ever be. In most countries they would end up on the rope.



I never praised Tito, stupid imbecile. I just said he showed middle finger to Stalin and he did. Tito was a Croat and identified as such.

How you just call yourself lowest of the low and disgusting xD

Your ancestors converted to muslims to gain more benefits in ottoman, traitors and lowest of the low.

xD xD xD

[Jana]

No, have you been reading my posts at all? I said their ancestors were living in Croatia for centuries, at least since Hapsburg times. For some reason they got land near Krajina or chose to live near Krajina and gradually developed an Orthodox identity. Like I said, my father has Hungarian-derived name while my mother has a name which over 70 Croatian people have but only two Serbian do (my mother's side that lives in Vojvodina, most likely) (according to actacroatica.com and forebears.io and prezime.net )

It's not as if they suddenly decided to switch to "Serbian loyalty" just on a whim during Yugoslavia times; that's ridiculous, and reveals how disingenuous you are.

They over decades witnessed first-hand perhaps that the Serbs were more honorable as a people than the Crorats

Right, he was a Croat who barely spoke kajkavian and stokavian and had a drunk Croat father but a Slovenian mother; hmm maybe he sucked at his own language because he hated his origin? I wouldn't blame him

You are not a Croat. Krajina was poorest, most illiterate and god-forsaken land in Croatia filled with most neglected and primitive population.
As well as dirtiest.

Spare us your crap and stop commenting on topics about Croats, butthurt Serboslav. I don't care if your ancestors had Croatian origin or not, they obviously sold their identity for the neighbouring orthodox acceptance.

[Jana]

Your ancestors converted to muslims to gain more benefits in ottoman, traitors and lowest of the low.

Lol no, they converted because of hate towards Catholics who massacred their Bogomil kind in Bosnia. That's why they enjoyed in war against Hungarians especially.
I descend from elite class of Bosnia who treated local peasants as subhumans.

[Voyt]

You are not a Croat. Krajina was poorest, most illiterate and god-forsaken land in Croatia filled with most neglected and primitive population.
As well as dirtiest.

Spare us your crap and stop commenting on topics about Croats, butthurt Serboslav. I don't care if your ancestors had Croatian origin or not, they obviously sold their identity for the neighbouring orthodox acceptance.

No, NEAR Krajina. My father was from Novska.

[Jana]

No, NEAR Krajina. My father was from Novska.

What's wrong with you exactly?

[Maintenance]

Lol no, they converted because of hate towards Catholics who massacred their Bogomil kind in Bosnia. That's why they enjoyed in war against Hungarians especially.
I descend from elite class of Bosnia who treated local peasants as subhumans.

COPEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

So catholics killing some cultists and they decide to become muslim so they can fight back? LOOOOOOOOOOL

Source of your so called noble ancestry miss?

[Jana]

...

First learn about history of Bosnia before popping out like a rat from sewers.

[Maintenance]

First learn about history of Bosnia before popping out like a rat from sewers.

You don't seem to know anything yourself, just like usual

Where is your noble source miss?

[Jana]

You don't seem to know anything yourself, just like usual

Where is your noble source miss?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_Crusade

Pribislav knows the details.

[Voyt]

First learn about history of Bosnia before popping out like a rat from sewers.

I actually respect cultists more than I do Catholicucks who take their orders from a pedophile with stolen history in his vaults

Bosniaks, even while being greedy opportunists, pale in comparison to the greed and opportunism of Crorats

[Maintenance]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_Crusade

Pribislav knows the details.

Nothing there explain cuckery converted muslims or your "noble" ancestry.

The article seem to be written by some random autistic kid looking how everything is written.

[Jana]

I actually respect cultists more than I do Catholicucks who take their orders from a pedophile with stolen history in his vaults

Bosniaks, even while being greedy opportunists, pale in comparison to the greed and opportunism of Crorats

Spare us your leftard and libtard propaganda against Catholics.
What ooprtunism? :laugh:

Idiot.

[Jana]

Nothing there explain cuckery converted muslims or your "noble" ancestry.

The article seem to be written by some random autistic kid looking how everything is written.

Buhuhu, Islam is a religion of war. You hate it because they cucked your orthodox tribe into submission for centuries and even made a mosque out of your main cathedral.
My ancestors were in wars while their orthodox slaves farmed for them.

[Voyt]

Spare us your leftard and libtard propaganda against Catholics.
What ooprtunism? :laugh:

Idiot.

It doesn't get more leftist than kissing the feet of poverty-and-famine-stricken blacks as if thinking you'll get rewarded by the highest of powers

https://nationalpostcom.files.wordpress.com/2019/04/pope.jpg?quality=80&strip=all&w=780

Even the blacks in that photo are capable of understanding the total lunacy and sanctimony of your mascot

The opportunism of selling out your identity so you can be good little footsoldiers for Romans, Venetians, French, Hungarians, Austrians, and Nazis, of course

[Maintenance]

Buhuhu, Islam is a religion of war. You hate it because they cucked your orthodox tribe into submission for centuries and even made a mosque out of your main cathedral.
My ancestors were in wars while their orthodox slaves farmed for them.

You claim noble ancestry which doesn't exist, your ancestors were cucked and converted to avoid blood tax.

You mention your noble ancestry in half of your posts and call diasporas peasants and so on, even if you *had* noble ancestry, a diaspora is for you noble today, while you live in a slum in hungary in current day.

[Jana]

It doesn't get more leftist than kissing the feet of poverty-and-famine-stricken blacks as if thinking you'll get rewarded by the highest of powers

https://nationalpostcom.files.wordpress.com/2019/04/pope.jpg?quality=80&strip=all&w=780

Even the blacks in that photo are capable of understanding the total lunacy and sanctimony of your mascot

Blacks >>>> You

[Jana]

You claim noble ancestry which doesn't exist, your ancestors were cucked and converted to avoid blood tax.
You mention your noble ancestry in half of your posts and call diasporas peasants and so on, even if you *had* noble ancestry, a diaspora is for you noble today, while you live in a slum in hungary in current day.

I actually posted screenshots which mention my family in town they're from, and how my ancestor gave lot of money for local mosque to be built.
Slum? Hardly.

[Voyt]

Blacks >>>> You

:icon_lol:
and so the cookie crumbles...

[Maintenance]

I actually posted screenshots which mention my family in town they're from, and how my ancestor gave lot of money for local mosque to be built.
Slum? Hardly.

Worst neighbourhood in budapest literally a GHETTO according to hungarians here.

Also remember this dalmatian?

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?304154-Dalmatian-croat-23andme

Hes actually half dalmatian half bosniak.

I made this thread just to laugh at your mutt lying ass xD

you are nothing but a mutt in balkans who score nothing like dalmatians or even what you claim.

[Voyt]

You claim noble ancestry which doesn't exist, your ancestors were cucked and converted to avoid blood tax.

You mention your noble ancestry in half of your posts and call diasporas peasants and so on, even if you *had* noble ancestry, a diaspora is for you noble today, while you live in a slum in hungary in current day.

Wait, she actually lives in Hungary now? lmfao , what a hypocrite

and here I thought, she actually was one of the few bleeding-heart crorats still left in the country

Is there a crorat that HASN'T sold his soul in some way shape or form?

[Jana]

Worst neighbourhood in budapest literally a GHETTO according to hungarians here.

Also remember this dalmatian?

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?304154-Dalmatian-croat-23andme

Hes actually half dalmatian half bosniak.

I made this thread just to laugh at your mutt lying ass xD

you are nothing but a mutt in balkans who score nothing like dalmatians or even what you claim.

Loool, Bosniaks and Dalmatians are genetically almost the same thing.
And yes, I score like typical Croatian Islander.

Here is Croatian Islander woman who scores almost exactly like me.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?308720-100-Croatian-Islander-23andme-(nearly-identical-results-to-mine!)

District XIII is far from worst in Budapest. Lol, this is also 13th district:
https://www.offbeatbudapest.com/budapest-city-guide/neighborhoods/ujlipotvaros-district-13/

Not that you know anything about the city anyhow.

[Jana]

Wait, she actually lives in Hungary now? lmfao , what a hypocrite

and here I thought, she actually was one of the few bleeding-heart crorats still left in the country

Is there a crorat that HASN'T sold his soul in some way shape or form?

My husband is Hungarian, stupid.

[Maintenance]

Loool, Bosniaks and Dalmatians are genetically almost the same thing.
And yes, I score like typical Croatian Islander.

Here is Croatian Islander woman who scores almost exactly like me.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?308720-100-Croatian-Islander-23andme-(nearly-identical-results-to-mine!)

District XIII is far from worst in Budapest. Lol, this is also 13th district:
https://www.offbeatbudapest.com/budapest-city-guide/neighborhoods/ujlipotvaros-district-13/

Not that you know anything about the city anyhow.

Source: you

I dont need to know more than that there is degenerates living there who suck homeless peoples cock at nights.
Living under poverty as a noble woman must be amazing.

[Jana]

Source: you

I dont need to know more than that there is degenerates living there who suck homeless peoples cock at nights.
Living under poverty as a noble woman must be amazing.

:rofl_002:

Dude, there are much more degenerates in Pest city center during night then where we live.
It's a normal working class part where only Hungarians live, no expats, no immigrants and no Gypsies.

[Ülev]

White Serbs, White Croatians.... you all are Poles!!! :p
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/1861_%D1%80.._%D0%A5%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B7%D1%8C%D0%BA %D0%BE_%D0%91%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B9%D0%BA%D0%BE_ %D0%9B%D0%B5%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B4_%D0%A1% D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD_%D0%BD%D0%B0_862_%D1%80.jpg
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bia%C5%82a_Chorwacja

p.s.
Grande Khrobatie-Blanche = Great White Croatia

[Voyt]

My husband in Hungarian, stupid.

Right, I'm the stupid one

No wonder my ancestors wanted nothing to do with genius croats

[Jana]

Right, I'm the stupid one

No wonder my ancestors wanted nothing to do with genius croats

Brain damage?

[Maintenance]

:rofl_002:

Dude, there are much more degenerates in Pest city center during night then where we live.
It's a normal working class part where only Hungarians live, no expats, no immigrants and no Gypsies.

Btw, that dalmatian is full of shit just like many others on 23andme

Like this "italian"


https://i.imgur.com/o4m8AbN.png

[Maintenance]

:rofl_002:

Dude, there are much more degenerates in Pest city center during night then where we live.
It's a normal working class part where only Hungarians live, no expats, no immigrants and no Gypsies.

Btw, that "dalmatian" is full of shit just like many others on 23andme

Like this "italian"


https://i.imgur.com/o4m8AbN.png

[Cumansky]

Don't forget to try the NEW K110 World Calculator

Can be found here: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?308734-NEW-WORLD-K110-CALCULATOR

[Jana]

Btw, that dalmatian is full of shit just like many others on 23andme

Like this "italian"

https://i.imgur.com/o4m8AbN.png

What proof you have except your wishful thinking?
She scores nothing unusual for her ancestry.

[Maintenance]

What proof you have except your wishful thinking?
She scores nothing unusual for her ancestry.

Yes she does and you even said it in my thread when i said the dalmatian is full dalmatian.

Stop shooting yourself in the foot.


https://i.imgur.com/jJVtZFZ.png

[Jana]

Yes she does and you even said it in my thread when i said the dalmatian is full dalmatian.

Stop shooting yourself in the foot.

https://i.imgur.com/jJVtZFZ.png

She is not Dalmatian, she is from North Adriatic Island.

[Voyt]

Brain damage?

Your parents must be such patriotic croats to implant the idea in their daughter's head that Hungarians are some noble people and perfectly fitting for marrying into and somehow improving the croat legacy

[Jana]

Your parents must be such patriotic croats to implant the idea in their daughter's head that Hungarians are some noble people and perfectly fitting for marrying into and somehow improving the croat legacy

Imbecile, I chosed him because I like him, not because he is Hungarian :laugh:
My parents don't like foreigners in fact, but I couldn't care less about their opinion.

He is of noble origin as well, unfortunately for you.

[Maintenance]

Your parents must be such patriotic croats to implant the idea in their daughter's head that Hungarians are some noble people and perfectly fitting for marrying into and somehow improving the croat legacy

They didn't actually, and i think her dad made her pay a bit for that, but then again they had to buy them an apartment since her 40 year old "husband" is a low life like her.
no income and making threads crying for welfare xD


Im out, got more important things to do.

[Jana]

They didn't actually, and i think her dad made her pay a bit for that, but then again they had to buy them an apartment since her 40 year old "husband" is a low life like her.
no income and making threads crying for welfare xD


Im out, got more important things to do.

Please stop lying about Stears. He lives in his own apartment he brought with his own money and he is much more educated than you are.

[Maintenance]

Please stop lying about Stears. He lives in his own apartment he brought with his own money and he is much more educated than you are.

Im sure he is sweety, did he finish his studies atleast unlike you and drop out?

So your parents didn't get you 2 an apartment since stears apartment is a small den?

[Jana]

Im sure he is sweety, did he finish his studies atleast unlike you and drop out?

So your parents didn't get you 2 an apartment since stears apartment is a small den?

You are reported for abuse, I'll let mods deal with you.

[Voyt]

Imbecile, I chosed him because I like him, not because he is Hungarian :laugh:
My parents don't like foreigners in fact, but I couldn't care less about their opinion.

He is of noble origin as well, unfortunately for you.

You are just a pile of contradictions

I didn't feel sorry for you before, but I do now

[Maintenance]

You are reported for abuse, I'll let mods deal with you.

What abuse, this is your own words that can be found in your posts, i just write them again.

Also your unlimited insults towards me and others is much worse.

hypocrite snowflake

[Dušan]

Buhuhu, Islam is a religion of war. You hate it because they cucked your orthodox tribe into submission for centuries and even made a mosque out of your main cathedral.
My ancestors were in wars while their orthodox slaves farmed for them.

Croatia is Muslim-friendly country that build mega-mosques all across country. Like this one in Rijeka.

http://www.novilist.hr/var/novilist/storage/images/multimedija/foto/dzamija-u-rijeci-foto-marko-gracin/dzamija-u-rijeci-foto-marko-gracin-8/2668258-1-cro-HR/Dzamija-u-Rijeci-Foto-Marko-GRACIN-8_gallery_embed_item.jpg

I hope Croatia will be full of Muslim immigrants soon, and be happy multicultural society. :)

[Jana]

You are just a pile of contradictions

I didn't feel sorry for you before, but I do now

You are a trash who hates his ancestry and disgusting American leftard and libtard devoid of identity and place.
Which is why you are unleashing your deep frustrations in here.

Odjebi.

[Maintenance]

Imagine calling everyone peasants and tell them they are uneducated while being a dropout and get called out about it and instantly scream abuse and report

Pathetic.

Calling my people gypsies, arabs, terrorists, rats and many other stuff.

While i never called croats anything negative.

hypocrite


Every post you do is venom to this site, all you do is insult people day in and day out.

[Jana]

Croatia is Muslim-friendly country that build mega-mosques all across country. Like this one in Rijeka.

http://www.novilist.hr/var/novilist/storage/images/multimedija/foto/dzamija-u-rijeci-foto-marko-gracin/dzamija-u-rijeci-foto-marko-gracin-8/2668258-1-cro-HR/Dzamija-u-Rijeci-Foto-Marko-GRACIN-8_gallery_embed_item.jpg

I hope Croatia will be full of Muslim immigrants soon, and be happy multicultural society. :)

Muslims in Rijeka are Bosniaks, Albanians and Gorani. No problems with them.
We don't want any muslim third-world immigrants in here.

[War Chef]

You guys are so full of hate.
I kinda feel sorry for you.

[Voyt]

You are a trash who hates his ancestry and disgusting American leftard and libtard devoid of identity and place.
Which is why you are unleashing your deep frustrations in here.

Odjebi.

I don't need identity; I'll create my own

MURRICA FUCK YEA

meanwhile you will eternally seethe in some E.U. shithole while your kids will slave away to the leftist establishment
c'est la vie

[War Chef]

You guys are so full of hate.
I kinda feel sorry for you.

[Voyt]

You guys are so full of hate.
I kinda feel sorry for you.

It may come across that way, but I actually love all people (love in the way that I want them to be the best version of themselves and not a pile of contradictions)

My posts are therapeutic for everyone who witnesses them.

I should create a Patreon and put it in my signature so the spiritually-starved masses can show their devotion and gratitude (not for my sake, but for their own; everyone needs someone to look up to, after all)

[Jana]

Imagine calling everyone peasants and tell them they are uneducated while being a dropout and get called out about it and instantly scream abuse and report

Pathetic.

Calling my people gypsies, arabs, terrorists, rats and many other stuff.

While i never called croats anything negative.

hypocrite


Every post you do is venom to this site, all you do is insult people day in and day out.

Why do you lie? My argument with Voight started after this post of his, full of hate.


Is the notion that just because you are ruled by someone else, that you are not necessarily relinquishing your ethnicity to those rulers, somehow lost to you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Despotate#/media/File:Serbian_Despotate_(1422)-en.svg

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Bosnia#/media/File:Medieval_Bosnian_State_Expansion-en.svg

:picard2:

Otherwise, Croats were common low-class Venetian rats, were common low-class Hungarian rats, were common low-class French rats, were common low-class Austrian rats, were common low-class Nazi rats.

Which, actually, I'm not even opposed to being the truth. Hell, if it required that Bosnian cowards were Crorats all along, I would perfectly be willing to have it be the case that Crorats relinquished their ratdom in favor of selling their ethnicity to the dirtiest power of each century

I finished my University also. Did you?

[Jana]

I don't need identity; I'll create my own

This delusion perfectly explains your hysteria.
Hungary being leftist establishment? :laugh:

[Maintenance]

Why do you lie? My argument with Voight started after this post of his, full of hate.



I finished my University also. Did you?

I came into the thread saw you bashing and insulting him, just like every thread you post in you bash and insult people calling them peasant and ending with how noble you are.


Like when you said dinarids are non existant in croatia and i posted a picture of several ones and you said that they are cypriot prostitutes and started insulting me.
We even have a dinaric croatian female here, do you deny her existance?

You like to call people subhuman and lots of other insults out of the blue, you just said you reported me for abuse, but your next post was insulting voight even more.
Don't you realize how much of a hypocrite you are?

[War Chef]

I came into the thread saw you bashing and insulting him, just like every thread you post in you bash and insult people calling them peasant and ending with how noble you are.


Like when you said dinarids are non existant in croatia and i posted a picture of several ones and you said that they are cypriot prostitutes and started insulting me.
We even have a dinaric croatian female here, do you deny her existance?

You like to call people subhuman and lots of other insults out of the blue, you just said you reported me for abuse, but your next post was insulting voight even more.
Don't you realize how much of a hypocrite you are?

You're no angel either. You went into my thread glorifying Vikings and saying how Lombard would crush Mediterranean sand-ninjas like me. All your boot licking of Langobards yet you cluster with Cypriots and I cluster way closer to Langobards than you. Haha, funny the way the world works.

[Maintenance]

You're no angel either. You went into my thread glorifying Vikings and saying how Lombard would crush Mediterranean sand-ninjas like me. All your boot licking of Langobards yet you cluster with Cypriots and I cluster way closer to Langobards than you. Haha, funny the way the world works.

>all the hate in this thread
and you then quote me with lies, i stated facts that longobards took over parts of italy and never called you a sand ninja or anything like that.

Whats the reason for this jump with lies?

[Jana]

I came into the thread saw you bashing and insulting him, just like every thread you post in you bash and insult people calling them peasant and ending with how noble you are.

Like when you said dinarids are non existant in croatia and i posted a picture of several ones and you said that they are cypriot prostitutes and started insulting me.
We even have a dinaric croatian female here, do you deny her existance?

You like to call people subhuman and lots of other insults out of the blue, you just said you reported me for abuse, but your next post was insulting voight even more.
Don't you realize how much of a hypocrite you are?

Because you pretend his trolling never happened. He started it. Pribislav also did, like in every other post where he claims Croats are Serbs. But I am okay with him for the most part.
I never said Dinarids are non existant here lol, I just said they surely aren't most common type especially not among young people and women.

You claimed that ugly lesbian woman looks typical Croat and she is 3/4 Serb, and there is really nothing typical about her.

[War Chef]

>all the hate in this thread
and you then quote me with lies, i stated facts that longobards took over parts of italy and never called you a sand ninja or anything like that.

Whats the reason for this jump with lies?

I thought you were 1/2 Swedish genetically, speaking of lie. You even had 1/2 Swedish in your profile but genetically you are Greek-Cypriot.
Anyway it's all good, I don't hate Mediterranean people.

[Voyt]

This delusion perfectly explains your hysteria.
Hungary being leftist establishment? :laugh:

You are so delusional that you don't realize your OWN identity is dissipating by the year.

You really think your "noble Croat lineage" will mean an ounce of shit living in E.U. Hungary for decades, while your kids will be even worse off central euro mutts who

At least I fully admit that identity is fleeting

meanwhile you're just wasting your time on a false identity

[Dick]

@vbnetkio he is not a match with us on gedmatch. I assume he has other south slav matches and not just you?

[Pribislav]

You are not a Croat. Krajina was poorest, most illiterate and god-forsaken land in Croatia filled with most neglected and primitive population.
As well as dirtiest.

Spare us your crap and stop commenting on topics about Croats, butthurt Serboslav. I don't care if your ancestors had Croatian origin or not, they obviously sold their identity for the neighbouring orthodox acceptance.

Still was better than moon's landscape western Herzegovina.

For destruction of Krajina are guilty communists. All important investitions in SFRJ in Croatia were outside of Krajina, because Krajina had Serbian majority. When artificial lake Peruča near Vrlika was created few thousands local Serbs moved in Bačka around Sombor, that was communist way of ethnic cleansing of Serbs from Croatia. Colonization of Vojvodina by Krajina Serbs after WW2 was also had goal to reduce number of Serbs in Croatia.
After WW2 my great-grandfather said "ajme Franjo, ajme ljuta rano", hi thought that Austro-Hungary was better than communists.

[vbnetkhio]

@vbnetkio he is not a match with us on gedmatch. I assume he has other south slav matches and not just you?

yes, i checked his list, he has several other Serbs near the bottom of the list.(so a very distant connection, like with me.)

in the "People who match both,or 1 of 2 kits" tool, our common matches are all east Europeans(Polish, Ukrainian,Russian) and one Serb and Albanian.

[Jana]

You are so delusional that you don't realize your OWN identity is dissipating by the year.

You really think your "noble Croat lineage" will mean an ounce of shit living in E.U. Hungary for decades, while your kids will be even worse off central euro mutts who

At least I fully admit that identity is fleeting

meanwhile you're just wasting your time on a false identity

My kid will be Croat and Hungarian, not rootless mutt like you.
Don't worry about Croatia, worry about yourself.

[Jana]

Still was better than moon's landscape western Herzegovina.

For destruction of Krajina are guilty communists. All important investitions in SFRJ in Croatia were outside of Krajina, because Krajina had Serbian majority. When artificial lake Peruča near Vrlika was created few thousands local Serbs moved in Bačka around Sombor, that was communist way of ethnic cleansing of Serbs from Croatia. Colonization of Vojvodina by Krajina Serbs after WW2 was also had goal to reduce number of Serbs in Croatia.
After WW2 my great-grandfather said "ajme Franjo, ajme ljuta rano", hi thought that Austro-Hungary was better than communists.

Western Herzegovina is not part of Croatia, what's the point of including in in discussion? And today it's richest part of BiH.
Krajina was underdeveloped for centuries and not because of communists lol. It served as military zone for long and there was nothing there except army barracks and most simple infrastructure.

It's poorest part of Croatia for very long time.

Literacy in Kingdom of Yugoslavia in 1930
https://i.redd.it/zdt5xc7glq001.jpg

Serb-majority Krajina being far below literacy of Croatia-Slavonia and coastal Dalmatia, on same level like Ottoman ruled Balkans.

[Pribislav]

Western Herzegovina is not part of Croatia, what's the point of including in in discussion? And today it's richest part of BiH.
Krajina was underdeveloped for centuries and not because of communists lol. It served as military zone for long and there was nothing there except army barracks and most simple infrastructure.

It's poorest part of Croatia for very long time.

Literacy in Kingdom of Yugoslavia in 1930
https://i.redd.it/zdt5xc7glq001.jpg

Serb-majority Krajina being far below literacy of Croatia-Slavonia and coastal Dalmatia, on same level like Ottoman ruled Balkans.

Serbs in Krajina (Austrian military frontier) were lack of taxes and had own land. Croatian peasents in civil Croatia were subject of German and Hungarian magnats, they could only dream about position which had Serbs in Krajina. These facts are one of few reasons for Croatian frustration and hate towards the Serbs.

[Jana]

Serbs Krajina (Austrian military frontier) were lack of taxes and had own land. Croatian peasents in civil Croatia were subject of German and Hungarian magnats, they could only dream about position which had Serbs in Krajina. This facts are one of few reasons for Croatian frustration and hate towards the Serbs.

This is one of most commonly repeated Serb fantasies. First of all majority of nobles in civil Croatia were ethnic Croats. We are one of very few Slavic nations that kept our own nobility trough centuries.
Second, living conditions in Krajina were very poor and these people were under constant threat from Ottoman incursions, rapes and murder. They were truly a cannon fodder for the Empire.

Nevertheless, Orthodox population became majority in Krajina relatively late (only in 18th century, when Ottoman power already faded)

[Voyt]

My kid will be Croat and Hungarian, not rootless mutt like you.
Don't worry about Croatia, worry about yourself.

The future of identity is ideology, you peasant/pissant

Well the future of the developed world at least

Meanwhile you tribalistic Europoors will be fighting and enslaving each other for centuries, until one of you nukes the rest out of weariness or boredom or until mandatory genetic tests by futuristic nazi despots reveal that all of you are hypocritically euromutts of the highest caliber, causing you to self-destruct

Choose your fate. Now.

[Voyt]

Western Herzegovina is not part of Croatia, what's the point of including in in discussion? And today it's richest part of BiH.
Krajina was underdeveloped for centuries and not because of communists lol. It served as military zone for long and there was nothing there except army barracks and most simple infrastructure.

It's poorest part of Croatia for very long time.

Literacy in Kingdom of Yugoslavia in 1930
https://i.redd.it/zdt5xc7glq001.jpg

Serb-majority Krajina being far below literacy of Croatia-Slavonia and coastal Dalmatia, on same level like Ottoman ruled Balkans.

You just shot yourself in the foot by showing a map that shows northern south-slavs were more educated than Dinaro-Adriatic subhumans hahahaah

nobility my ass, you are simple peasant, and a hypocrite at that

[Jana]

You just shot yourself in the foot by showing a map that shows northern south-slavs were more educated than Dinaro-Adriatic subhumans hahahaah

nobility my ass, you are simple peasant, and a hypocrite at that

Not northern South Slavs, but south Slavs who were not under Ottoman rule except Krajina population.
Adriatic coast has same literacy level as Slavonia and Central Croatia.

Stupid subhuman.

[Voyt]

Not northern South Slavs, but south Slavs who were not under Ottoman rule except Krajina population.
Adriatic coast has same literacy level as Slavonia and Central Croatia.

Stupid subhuman.

Are you color-blind, or disingenuous, or stupid, or some combination of the three?

Here, I'll draw it out for ya:

https://i.imgur.com/ahNjmk2.jpg

You can even paste this map into Paint and cut out each of the tiny little regions and cross check them for yourself

Face it, Slavonia was more educated than your Roman ancestors who had their houses built by Venetians

Here's even a map from Austro-Hungary times, and not that Yugo-propaganda bullshit:

https://www.gifex.com/images/0X0/2011-06-29-13985/Literacy-rate-in-Austria-Hungary-1880.jpg

What's that? The most literate entities in south-slavia were Posavina in Slavonia, and Vojvodina? Say it ain't so

Your entire world crumbles down

[Pribislav]

This is one of most commonly repeated Serb fantasies. First of all majority of nobles in civil Croatia were ethnic Croats. We are one of very few Slavic nations that kept our own nobility trough centuries.
Second, living conditions in Krajina were very poor and these people were under constant threat from Ottoman incursions, rapes and murder. They were truly a cannon fodder for the Empire.

Nevertheless, Orthodox population became majority in Krajina relatively late (only in 18th century, when Ottoman power already faded)

Krajina Serbs are branch of Serbs who had most freedom since medieval Serbian states fell, on the second place are Montenegrins.
Ask HungryLion how his Banija Serbs defeated Cazinska Krajina Muslims many times!
I am most familiar with history of Dalmatian Serbs. I know that Jovan Sinobad captured a lot of Muslim women in Bosnia and he and his warriors used them as whores https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinobad

[Jana]

Are you color-blind, or disingenuous, or stupid, or some combination of the three?

Are you retarded? My grandmother is from Vojvodina, and it's excellent literacy rate is thanks to huge German and Hungarian population that still lived there by 1930.
Coastal Dalmatia has far better literacy rather than Krajina, while southern Serbia ,Kosovo and Macedonia are worst by far.

[Jana]

Krajina Serbs are branch of Serbs who had most freedom since medieval Serbian states fell, on the second place are Montenegrins.
Ask HungryLion how his Banija Serbs defeated Cazinska Krajina Muslims many times!
I am most familiar with history of Dalmatian Serbs. I know that Jovan Sinobad captured a lot of Muslim women in Bosnia and he and his warriors used them as whores https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinobad

:1127:

You are not Krajina Serb. ''Krajina'' from 1990s is different from historical military frontier.

[Pribislav]

:1127:

You are not Krajina Serb. ''Krajina'' from 1990s is different from historical military frontier.

Officially my ancestors were not in Austrian military frontier. But they have same role in Venetian service against Ottomans as Lika, Banija and Kordun Serbs (aka Krajina Serbs) in Austrian service against Ottomans.
Dalmatian Serbs had more famous individual heroes in fight against the Ottomans than Krajina Serbs, such as Janko Mitrović, Stojan Janković, Zaviša Janković, Vuk Mandušić, Jovan Sinobad, Mitar Sinobad, Filip Pavasović, Plavša Kresović, Stojan Cvitkovac, Pavle Đurić, Cvijan Šarić and many others.

[Voyt]

Are you retarded? My grandmother is from Vojvodina, and it's excellent literacy rate is thanks to huge German and Hungarian population that still lived there by 1930.
Coastal Dalmatia has far better literacy rather than Krajina, while southern Serbia ,Kosovo and Macedonia are worst by far.

Which part of Krajina? As I've already shown, the part of Krajina where I'm from has at worst equal literacy to most of Dalmatia

Meanwhile the worst parts of Dalmatia are equal to the worst parts of Krajina

More proof:

https://i.imgur.com/3hHwPY7.jpg



Don't you see how ridiculous it is to take pride from Croatia being literate when it was entirely because of Austro-Hungary? And at the same time you disparage Serbs from Slavonia and Vojvodina...

[Jana]

Which part of Krajina? As I've already shown, the part of Krajina where I'm from has at worst equal literacy to most of Dalmatia

Meanwhile the worst parts of Dalmatia are equal to the worst parts of Krajina

More proof:

Don't you see how ridiculous it is to take pride from Croatia being literate when it was entirely because of Austro-Hungary? And at the same time you disparage Serbs from Slavonia and Vojvodina...

Idiot, it has nothing to do with ethnicity and interior of Dalmatia which was most illiterate part of the region had big Serbian population too.
I just said Krajina was backward and primitive region and there was few positives about it.


One of the more sensitive issues is the arrival of Vlachs in the area of ​​the newly emerging Military Frontier. It is undoubtedly established that they came as Turkish auxiliaries and were eventually bribed and settled by the Croatian and Austrian authorities. Under the name "martologists" (there are differing opinions on the origin of this name), they often had a dubious status - for example, in 1586, the Croatian Parliament decided that every martologist should have, because of the violence and looting that made them Turkish marching troops, alive get on the stake as a frightening example to others. Over time, this population was drawn into the machinery of the Habsburg Empire and used for imperial military purposes.

[Pribislav]

Idiot, it has nothing to do with ethnicity and interior of Dalmatia which was most illiterate part of the region had big Serbian population too.
I just said Krajina was backward and primitive region and there was few positives about it.

The biggest mind in history Nikola Tesla was Krajina Serb. His paternal grandfather was officier in Military frontier. Father of Nikola Tesla started also as officier, but later left service and became Orthodox priest.

[Jana]

The biggest mind in history Nikola Tesla was Krajina Serb. His paternal grandfather was officier in Military frontier, his father started also as officier but later left service and became Orthodox priest.

Yes, and he was fast to leave that forsaken region where his father tried to make him a priest. Had he stayed there, nothing would become of him.

[Pribislav]

Yes, and he was fast to leave that forsaken region where his father tried to make him a priest. Had he stayed there, nothing would become of him.

Uncle of Nikola Tesla was professor of math in Karlovac gimnasy, other uncle was priest as his father. Ancestors and cousins of Nikola Tesla from both father's and mother's side were uducated for generations.

[Jana]

Uncle of Nikola Tesla was professor of math in Karlovac gimnasy, other uncle was priest as his father. Ancestors and cousins of Nikola Tesla from both father's and mother's side were uducated for generations.

He was not average Krajina Serb, he came from highest local class. In rural regions priests were often only educated people.

[Pribislav]

He was not average Krajina Serb, he came from highest local class. In rural regions priests were often only educated people.

Tesla's mother is from family Mandić, also tradition al educated family.
Lika Serb families Budisavljević and Medaković as well gave many intelectuals and military officiers.

[Voyt]

Officially my ancestors were not in Austrian military frontier. But they have same role in Venetian service against Ottomans as Lika, Banija and Kordun Serbs (aka Krajina Serbs) in Austrian service against Ottomans.
Dalmatian Serbs had more famous individual heroes in fight against the Ottomans than Krajina Serbs, such as Janko Mitrović, Stojan Janković, Zaviša Janković, Vuk Mandušić, Jovan Sinobad, Mitar Sinobad, Filip Pavasović, Plavša Kresović, Stojan Cvitkovac, Pavle Đurić, Cvijan Šarić and many others.

where did these dalmatian serbs most often migrate to?

[Voyt]

Idiot, it has nothing to do with ethnicity and interior of Dalmatia which was most illiterate part of the region had big Serbian population too.
I just said Krajina was backward and primitive region and there was few positives about it.

So Dalmatian islands are part of Krajina as well then ? :picard2:

because their literacy is just the same

[Pribislav]

Peak of knowledge of Feiichy's ancestors was Quran. :rotfl::rotfl:

[Jana]

So Dalmatian islands are part of Krajina as well then ? :picard2:

because their literacy is just the same

Buhahaha, don't lie Serv.
https://i.redd.it/zdt5xc7glq001.jpg

Islands like Hvar were absolute peak of culture in Croatia, do you even know how many reineissance and baroque artists they gave?
Famous example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanibal_Luci%C4%87

In comparison with Hvar, Korčula, Trogir or Dubrovnik most Panonnia is a muddy shithole devoid of high culture and ancient history.

[Jana]

Peak of knowledge of Feiichy's ancestors was Quran. :rotfl::rotfl:

To read Quran you needed knowledge of Arabic, but maybe you didn't know that xD

[Kamal900]

To read Quran you needed knowledge of Arabic, but maybe you didn't know that xD

Especially learning Quranic Arabic that is nothing like MSA(modern standard Arabic) and it's colloquial Arabic dialects.

[Mingle]

To read Quran you needed knowledge of Arabic, but maybe you didn't know that xDYou just need to know the script to read it. It will sound like gibberish and you won't be able to understand it of course, but you would still be able to read it. The majority of non-Arab Muslims today read the Qur'an but don't understand the text they're reading. It would be like if you started reading the Bible in Latin (due to knowledge of the script) but not being able to understand what you read. I'm not even sure if Arab Muslims can understand the Quran since it was written in Arabic from a different time period. Islamic prayers are also in Arabic and they are memorized by heart by non-Arabic speaking Muslims. Knowledge of Islam comes from your parents/community usually.

Bosniaks used to have the Arabic script so they probably could read it, but I don't know any details about that. They could've also translated it into their language (although reading the Qur'an in a language other than Arabic is rare AFAIK).

[Insuperable]

He passed through Dubrovnik. Some Croatian kings were granted control of Byzantine Dalmatian possesions, including Dubrovnik, by the Byzantine emperor.

I think we don't know where he passed. Based on other sources too it indicates the land in question is modern Montenegro. Whatever the case is it seems that Greeks didn't really differentiated Croats from Serbs and vice versa.


that's a different "debunking" than the one Feiichy posted, whom should i believe?

Don't really give a shit what she wrote. Fact is that the thing Serbs like to quote is a supplement. Fact is that in the main charter Ninoslav addresses his people as Bošnjani or something like that. Fact is that he promises to Dubrovnik protection from the Raška Republic (or Serbia proper at the time). All this is not a smoking gun just as that supplement is not a smoking gun for Serbian claims. Balkan history will always remain clouded.

[Insuperable]

Lol no, they converted because of hate towards Catholics who massacred their Bogomil kind in Bosnia. That's why they enjoyed in war against Hungarians especially.

I descend from elite class of Bosnia who treated local peasants as subhumans.

Nice copes.