Putin: Russia-Belarus Merger 'Possible' And 'Desirable'

[European blood]

SELIGER LAKE, Russia — Prime Minister Vladimir Putin says he supports calls for Russia to merge with its western neighbor Belarus.

Belarus has been an independent state since the Soviet Union fell apart in 1991.

Speaking at a Kremlin youth camp, Putin said Monday the return to Soviet-style unity is "possible, desirable and wholly dependent on the will of the Belarusian people."

Russia and Belarus already have open borders, with their citizens able to travel freely and seek employment in either country.

Authoritarian Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko is a fierce defender of his country's sovereignty.

But Belarus is mired in its worst financial crisis since independence, and Lukashenko is under pressure to sell key parts of its industry to Russians in exchange for a bailout.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/01/putin-russiabelarus-merge_n_915028.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec3_lnk2%7C82602

[Turkophagos]

It is about time for Small Russians and White Russians to reunite with their mother state, the Federal Republic of Russia.

[SilverKnight]

ummm Interesting move by Putin .

[Loddfafner]

Russia had better annex it before NATO bombs it in its next well-intentioned anti-dictator fiasco.

[Gordon Bennett]

One of the prinipal problems with the break up of the USSR was that it foisted independence on Soviet 'republics' that were either too ethnically unstable (such as Georgia) or that simply didn't have a sufficiently strong sense of national identity; Belarus perhaps being the clearest example of this. Let's not forget, many of these ex-Soviet states had never, ever been independent states before.

[poiuytrewq0987]

I support this. :D Belarus will be a lot better off as a federal subject of Russia than independent since it'd get access to Russia's vast resources for virtually free.

[Electronic God-Man]

Wouldn't be a huge deal. Stay away from the Baltic states and Poland though.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Wouldn't be a huge deal. Stay away from the Baltic states and Poland though.

Belarusians and Ukrainians are just Russians-in-denial just as Macedonians and Montenegrins are Serbs-in-denial... :D Belarus down, Ukraine is next. :cool:

[W. R.]

Authoritarian Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko is a fierce defender of his country's sovereignty.

But Belarus is mired in its worst financial crisis since independence, and Lukashenko is under pressure to sell key parts of its industry to Russians in exchange for a bailout.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/08/01/putin-russiabelarus-merge_n_915028.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec3_lnk2%7C82602That is a positive thing about dictators: their countries remain sovereign because they don't share their power with anyone.

If Ł dies suddenly, I doubt that the opposition will be ready to replace him with someone. There will be no honest elections (the officials have already forgotten how to organize ones) and most probably one of apparatchiks will become a new president. Since there are no people with strong personalities around Ł, it will be somebody weak and corruptible... Got it, Putin? Have you ever considered Ł's assasination? I know you can have the thing done. :taped-shut:

[Zephyr]

It is about time for Small Russians and White Russians to reunite with their mother state, the Federal Republic of Russia.

Because it makes a cool map?

[poiuytrewq0987]

Before:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Russian_Federation_%28orthographic_projection%29.s vg/541px-Russian_Federation_%28orthographic_projection%29.s vg.png

After:

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/8376/belarusannexed.png

All hail Tsar Putin!

http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/6469/tsarputin.jpg

[Turkophagos]

Because it makes a cool map?


Because I'm sick and tired of pseudo-nations. Plus, a powerfull and united Russia is the last hope for Europe.

[W. R.]

Because I'm sick and tired of pseudo-nations.Yeah, Belarusians with all their powers united definitely can make a Greek sick and tired. I don't think that even escape to the USA can save him from this terrible fate. :rolleyes:

[poiuytrewq0987]

That is a positive thing about dictators: their countries remain sovereign because they don't share their power with anyone.

If Ł dies suddenly, I doubt that the opposition will be ready to replace him with someone. There will be no honest elections (the officials have already forgotten how to organize ones) and most probably one of apparatchiks will become a new president. Since there are no people with strong personalities around Ł, it will be somebody weak and corruptible... Got it, Putin? Have you ever considered Ł's assasination? I know you can have the thing done. :taped-shut:

I never got the impression that Lukashenko was a hardcore nationalist. More like old school commie.

[Albion]

It's the Russian Empire all over again! :rolleyes:

Seriously though, Belarussians are just Russians who pretend to be different, they'd probably do better as part of Russia than under Lukashenko anyway, although he'd probably become governor of the "republic" of Belarus within Russia sadly.

[W. R.]

I never got the impression that Lukashenko was a hardcore nationalist. More like old school commie.It may sound somehow strange, but I believe that being a head of a state for such a long period can turn anybody into one. Not "nationalist" (I believe in Stalin's definition of nation) but some kind of "patriot" (in this case - patriot of his modified BSSR) for sure. Unlike many people a head of a state thinks and makes decisions "on national scale" every day.

[W. R.]

they'd probably do better as part of Russia than under Lukashenko anywayNope, Russia is an undemocratic petrostate on the way of becoming a failed state. Anyone who thinks that Belarus will benefit from merging with Russia is insane.

[Mordid]

It's the Russian Empire all over again! :rolleyes:

Seriously though, Belarussians are just Russians who pretend to be different, they'd probably do better as part of Russia than under Lukashenko anyway, although he'd probably become governor of the "republic" of Belarus within Russia sadly.

Belarusians are Belarusians. If you say it to any Belarusians person, they'll beat the shit out of you.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Nope, Russia is an undemocratic petrostate on the way of becoming a failed state. Anyone who thinks that Belarus will benefit from merging with Russia is insane.

And you just described Belarus without the petro. :clap:

[W. R.]

And you just described Belarus without the petro. :clap:I believe that Belarus is a more effective state than Russia. Here dictatorship at least provides some Ordnung, while Russia is just undemocratic.

[poiuytrewq0987]

I believe that Belarus is a more effective state than Russia. Here dictatorship at least provides some Ordnung, while Russia is just undemocratic.

There is no such thing as democracy unless it's a direct democracy Greek-style. Parliamentary democracy is a joke and I think France and recently, America have proved that.

[beaver]

It is about time for Small Russians and White Russians to reunite with their mother state, the Federal Republic of Russia.

Imo, it would be much better for Belarusians to become a part of Europe, but the problem is in current situation in Europe again. Who will invest in Belarus when there are great possibilities in South-East Asia? Ireland was greatest growing economy not so long ago, where is Ireland now? Its still going not so bad, Dell e.g. has recently shifted its facilities from Ireland to Poland, not to Malaysia. But this is rather an exception.

[Peerkons]

I wan't one of these. :D

http://www.pzorb.com/albums/blog/hanoi_002.sized.jpg

[Zephyr]

It's the Russian Empire all over again! :rolleyes:

Seriously though, Belarussians are just Russians who pretend to be different, they'd probably do better as part of Russia than under Lukashenko anyway, although he'd probably become governor of the "republic" of Belarus within Russia sadly.


Nope, Russia is an undemocratic petrostate on the way of becoming a failed state. Anyone who thinks that Belarus will benefit from merging with Russia is insane.


And you just described Belarus without the petro. :clap:

Russia should use those petro-rubles to compensate the belarusian people for the Chornobyl' disaster. It's a national burden that Belarus wil carry for many years.

http://macrobusiness.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/568px-Chernobyl_radiation_map_1996_Layer-1.gif

Everytime the question is popped up by mr. Putin and his horde, people should send this picture to them and ask if Russia is also willing to pay for the huge legacy left by soviet crap engineering.

Although they selectedly assume or deny such depending on the subject, as far as we know Russia is internationally accepted as the successor entity of the Soviet Union.

[Zephyr]

Because I'm sick and tired of pseudo-nations. Plus, a powerfull and united Russia is the last hope for Europe.

I believe that every nation's people has the right to decide its own fate. Whether it's good or bad, their will is something we foreigners, including russians, must respect and encourage.

It's up for belarusians to decide. Aware and under no form of coercion.

The fact that they have lived under several foreign ruling power throughout time and still kept their nationality is not a proof of lack of legitimacy to be independent, rather a proof of their strength and identity.

http://images.wikia.com/althistory/images/1/19/Belarus_Flag_with_COA.png

My support goes to Belarusians and their right of self-awareness, self-determination and command of their own fates. Is it not what we all aim for?

[SilverKnight]

Before:

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/8376/belarusannexed.png




I don't know if anyone has notice yet but Russia looks like a big "mosnter" eating up the rest of Europe :rolleyes: .

[Max]

Well this is long overdue. More than half of all Belarussians I have met either work or study in Russia anyways. They all refer to them self's as Russians and occasion follow up with "From Minsk" or another city. Belarus will always be tied together with Russia and it's just stupid to make the people suffer the economic hardships that are going on. Now all we need is a small strip of Polish/Lithuanian land to connect Kaliningrad to the rest of Russia :D

[BiałaZemsta]

Belarusians and Ukrainians are just Russians-in-denial just as Macedonians and Montenegrins are Serbs-in-denial... :D Belarus down, Ukraine is next. :cool:

I am against the merger. The last thing Europe needs is a stronger Russia. Also, Ukraine in particular has its own language and culture which is different from Russian. Similar? Yes. Compatible? Maybe? But who wants to see these ethnic groups dissapear off the map and see Russia become stronger. Not me!

[Turkophagos]

I believe that every nation's people has the right to decide its own fate. Whether it's good or bad, their will is something we foreigners, including russians, must respect and encourage.

It's up for belarusians to decide. Aware and under no form of coercion.




http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/ba/Flag_of_the_Union_State.svg/800px-Flag_of_the_Union_State.svg.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a2/Commonwealth_of_Independent_States_Union_of_Russia _and_Belarus.svg/800px-Commonwealth_of_Independent_States_Union_of_Russia _and_Belarus.svg.png



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_State

[Zephyr]

Well this is long overdue. More than half of all Belarussians I have met either work or study in Russia anyways. They all refer to them self's as Russians and occasion follow up with "From Minsk" or another city. Belarus will always be tied together with Russia and it's just stupid to make the people suffer the economic hardships that are going on.

Unite with Russia or suffer to death? no other options available?


Now all we need is a small strip of Polish/Lithuanian land to connect Kaliningrad to the rest of Russia :D

You mean that former part of Germany which was transformed from a baltic Riviera into Europe's most polluted black hole in a matter of decades?

First it was like...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2f/Koenigsberg_Schloss_Ostseite_1900.jpg

Then in the same place...
http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/images/francisnapoleao/2004/10/20/kaliningraddomsowjetow.jpg

Mama Russia. Making eastern Europe look like a giant slum since 1917.

[Max]

Unite with Russia or suffer to death? no other options available?



You mean that former part of Germany which was transformed from a baltic Riviera into Europe's most polluted black hole in a matter of decades?

First it was like...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2f/Koenigsberg_Schloss_Ostseite_1900.jpg

Then in the same place...
http://blogs.warwick.ac.uk/images/francisnapoleao/2004/10/20/kaliningraddomsowjetow.jpg

Mama Russia. Making eastern Europe look like a giant slum since 1917.

Belarus is a just a region of Russia that has more of an identity than others. Should Karelia also become it's own nation? Or Omsk ? Or Irkutsk?

Well it's obvious that you have never seen the city yourself. It's a nice city and people are happy to live there. It's definitely not a slum and has it's own unique charm.
http://www.raketa.nu/projects/kaliningrad/blog/kaliningrad.jpg

http://www.faqs.org/photo-dict/photofiles/list/4315/5750Kaliningrad.jpg

http://www.lisa-travel.co.uk/sprachreisen/bilder/sprachen2010/kaliningrad08.jpg
http://www.happytellus.com/img/kaliningrad/kaliningrad_645.jpg
http://www.con-ex.com/eng/russia/kaliningrad/images/KGD.jpg
http://www.lrp.se/upload/Ryssland/Kaliningrad%20Plaza.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Kaliningrad_town_hall_and_tram504.jpg

[Zephyr]

I don't want to offend you, Maksim, but what's beautiful in "Kaliningrad" was built by germans and germanized baltic prussians, which were expelled 60 years ago.

The level of pollution in "Kaliningrad" is renouned and the ugly soviet architecture as well.

As for Belarus vs Irkutsk... I don't think Irkutsk has the historical importance of Belarus, they don't have a great civilizational history to tell about. Karelians had... but it's mostly vanished. How many Karelians still remember their identity?

Significant enclaves of Karelians exist in the Tver oblast of Russia, resettled after Russia's defeat in 1617 against Sweden — in order to escape the peril of forced conversion to Lutheranism in Swedish Karelia and because the Russians promised tax deductions the Orthodox Karelians mass migrated there. Olonets (Aunus) is the only city in Russia where the Karelians form a majority (60% of the population).

Karelians have been declining in numbers in modern times significantly due to a number of factors. These include the low birthrates (characteristic of the region in general) and especially Russification, due to the predominance of Russian language and culture. In 1926, according to the census, Karelians only counted for 37.4% of the population in the Soviet Karelian Republic (which at that time did not yet include territories that would later be taken from Finland and added, most of which had mostly Karelian inhabitants), or 0.1 million Karelians. Russians, meanwhile, numbered 153,967 in Karelia, or 57.2% of the population. By 2002, there were only 65651 Karelians in the Republic of Karelia (65.1% of the number in 1926, including the Karelian regions taken from Finland which were not counted in 1926), and Karelians made up only 9.2% of the population in their homeland. Russians, meanwhile, were 76.6% of the population in Karelia. This trend continues to this day, and may cause the disappearance of Karelians as a distinct group.

It will probably be the fate of Belarusians as well.

[Max]

I don't want to offend you, Maksim, but what's beautiful in "Kaliningrad" was built by germans and germanized baltic prussians, which were expelled 60 years ago.

The level of pollution in "Kaliningrad" is renouned and the ugly soviet architecture as well.

As for Belarus vs Irkutsk... I don't think Irkutsk has the historical importance of Belarus, they don't have a great civilizational history to tell about. Karelians had... but it's mostly vanished. How many Karelians still remember their identity?

Significant enclaves of Karelians exist in the Tver oblast of Russia, resettled after Russia's defeat in 1617 against Sweden — in order to escape the peril of forced conversion to Lutheranism in Swedish Karelia and because the Russians promised tax deductions the Orthodox Karelians mass migrated there. Olonets (Aunus) is the only city in Russia where the Karelians form a majority (60% of the population).

Karelians have been declining in numbers in modern times significantly due to a number of factors. These include the low birthrates (characteristic of the region in general) and especially Russification, due to the predominance of Russian language and culture. In 1926, according to the census, Karelians only counted for 37.4% of the population in the Soviet Karelian Republic (which at that time did not yet include territories that would later be taken from Finland and added, most of which had mostly Karelian inhabitants), or 0.1 million Karelians. Russians, meanwhile, numbered 153,967 in Karelia, or 57.2% of the population. By 2002, there were only 65651 Karelians in the Republic of Karelia (65.1% of the number in 1926, including the Karelian regions taken from Finland which were not counted in 1926), and Karelians made up only 9.2% of the population in their homeland. Russians, meanwhile, were 76.6% of the population in Karelia. This trend continues to this day, and may cause the disappearance of Karelians as a distinct group.

It will probably be the fate of Belarusians as well.

Spoken by someone who knows nothing about the Belarusian people. They aren't a "distinct" group. They are Russian speaking Slavs who's culture is by far closest to Russians. Alexander Lukashenko is just creating friction between the two countries with his bullshit policies. They are our people and I don't want to see them suffer.
http://neftegaz.ru/images/Neft%20Perey/military%20Russia%20Belarus.jpg

[W. R.]

Spoken by someone who knows nothing about the Belarusian people. They aren't a "distinct" group. They are Russian speaking Slavs who's culture is by far closest to Russians.I know a bit about the Belarusian people.

The Belarusian people is comparatively young: younger than Lithuanians and Poles, for example. Belarusians' main ancestors were northern Ruthenians, inhabitants of the Great Duchy of Lithuania. The "divorce" between northern and southern Ruthenians (now Belarusians and Ukrainians) took many centuries, one can argue that it was started in 1569, when the land that is know today as "Ukraine" was annexed by Poland, although the linguistic border between Belarusian and Ukrainian dialects must be significantly older.

The Ukrainians are our closest bruthaz, not Russians.

I think I even know why the Russification was so successful in the XIX century: the elites were heavily Polonized by that time, and the imperial policies managed to deepen the social alienation between the elites and the peasantry by making it not only social but also religious (see liquidation of the Uniate church) at the same time proposing an identity of triune Russian nation.

Having no elites that can be considered "national" makes any ethic group an easy target for any experiments with their identity.

The Russian Empire and then the USSR had two centuries for such experiments.

So it goes...

[European blood]

I liked Belarus Eurovision song.

It was very European and patriotic unlike other songs.

Asz9f-9SxiE

[Max]

I know a bit about the Belarusian people.

The Belarusian people are comparatively young: younger than Lithuanians and Poles, for example. Their main ancestors were northern Ruthenians, inhabitants of the Great Duchy of Lithuania. The "divorce" between northern and southern Ruthenians (now Belarusians and Ukrainians) took many centuries, one can argue that it was started in 1569, when the land that is know today as "Ukraine" was annexed by Poland, although the linguistic border between Belarusian and Ukrainian dialects must be significantly older.

The Ukrainians are our closest bruthaz, not Russians.

I think I even know why the Russification was so successful in the XIX century: the elites were heavily Polonized by that time, and the imperial policies managed to deepen the social alienation between the elites and the peasantry by making it not only social but also religious (see liquidation of the Uniate church) at the same time proposing an identity of triune Russian nation.

Having no elites that can be considered "national" makes any ethic group an easy target for any experiments with their identity.

The Russian Empire and then the USSR had two centuries for such experiments.

So it goes...

So what part of your unique identity do you think you will loose if you are annexed ? You and Ukraine have had 20 years to create a unique identity and I don't see anything but the same old Ruskies. If you want to split hairs between the 3 groups go ahead but don't pretend that the Belarusian people still don't look East for leadership.

В Россию надо верить...

[W. R.]

So what part of your unique identity do you think you will loose if you are annexed ?We have already almost lost it. There are few peoples in Europe as ignorant about their own history as Belarusians are. And the Belarusian language is nearly dead (there is still some hope left, though). In the annexed Belarus it will be dead for sure.
You and Ukraine have had 20 years to create a unique identity and I don't see anything but the same old Ruskies.Ł does everything to prevent it actually.

Ukrainians are far more successful: just look at their president: former Russian speaking chav, when I first heard Yanukovych speaking Ukrainian, I was all like "awww...". :D He rarely speaks Russian now.
but don't pretend that the Belarusian people still don't look East for leadership.Lol?
В Россию надо верить...Беларусам я радзіўся,
Беларусам буду жыць,
Беларускую зямельку,
Буду шчыра я любіць... :thumb001:

[W. R.]

I liked Belarus Eurovision song.

It was very European and patriotic unlike other songs.I don't like patriotism. I'm more into good old nationalism. Soviets also encouraged "Soviet patriotism", you see. Łukašenka wouldn't mind everyone to be a patriot of his modified BSSR either.

[Max]

We have already almost lost it. There are few peoples in Europe as ignorant about their own history as Belarusians are. And the Belarusian language is nearly dead (there is still some hope left, though). In the annexed Belarus it will be dead for sure.Ł does everything to prevent it actually.

Ukrainians are far more successful: just look at their president: former Russian speaking chav, when I first heard Yanukovych speaking Ukrainian, I was all like "awww...". :D He rarely speaks Russian now.Lol?Беларусам я радзіўся,
Беларусам буду жыць,
Беларускую зямельку,
Буду шчыра я любіць... :thumb001:

You measure success of a country by what language the president speaks? It's a similar Slavic language ffs... I could care less if I had to speak Belarusian or Ukranian. It's like arguing which one should I have Vanilla or French Vanilla? :rolleyes:

[W. R.]

You measure success of a country by what language the president speaks?I was referring to the identity question, not to successes of countries in general.

Łukašenka admitted once that to be able to speak Belarusian he had to "recall" it by reading books, etc. While Yanukovych gets Ukrainized immediately after becoming a president - the main difference between Ukraine and Belarus. :shrug:

[Mordid]

You measure success of a country by what language the president speaks? It's a similar Slavic language ffs... I could care less if I had to speak Belarusian or Ukranian. It's like arguing which one should I have Vanilla or French Vanilla? :rolleyes:

I'm not sure about Ukrainian becuase I have not heard their language, but when I was listen to Belarusian language, they sounds very familiar to me. :)

Polish movie
Br11ERhB3Mc
Do they sounds familiar to you ? :)

[Max]

I was referring to the identity question, not to successes of countries in general.

Łukašenka admitted once that to be able to speak Belarusian he had to "recall" it by reading books, etc. While Yanukovych gets Ukrainized immediately after becoming a president - the main difference between Ukraine and Belarus. :shrug:

A president does not need to Ukrainize or Belarusify his country. If the people feel so strongly about their national identity than they should learn it them selfs. The Russian language is just much more useful to know than Belarusian/ Ukrainian. Do you also think that Belarusians are loosing their identity because they learn English and have McDonalds? I mean even Moskovites have their own unique identity and some even say even a our own unique language :rolleyes: It's natural to have differences between regions and especially for a country the size of Russia. Honestly if we took an unbiased poll of Belarusian people on whether it's better to stay independent or merge with Russia what do you think the results would be? Would it depend on the region? age group?
Do you really think Belarusians want to start all over from 1991 by them selfs?

[Max]

I'm not sure about Ukrainian becuase I have not heard their language, but when I was listen to Belarusian language, they sounds very familiar to me. :)

Polish movie
Br11ERhB3Mc
Do they sounds familiar to you ? :)

I mean even I can understand at about 1/4 of the words in Polish. It would also help if he wasn't eating while he's talking.

[W. R.]

A president does not need to Ukrainize or Belarusify his country. If the people feel so strongly about their national identity than they should learn it them selfs. The Russian language is just much more useful to know than Belarusian/ Ukrainian. Do you also think that Belarusians are loosing their identity because they learn English and have McDonalds?Give Ukrainians some more time and they will become a normal nation-state, they are going in the correct direction - that was my point (the example of the two presidents was an illustration to that). While the identity of Belarusians is in a more f*cked-up condition. That's why we look more like a Soviet republic: with our language dying, the red flags in our streets, the ritual dances around the integration with Russia, etc.
Honestly if we took an unbiased poll of Belarusian people on whether it's better to stay independent or merge with Russia what do you think the results would be? Would it depend on the region? age group?So far it was like this: the more time passes since the breakup of the USSR, the less nostalgic people are about it. In the East pro-Russian sentiments are stronger generally. As a rule, the younger people are the less they care about the possible reunion, I think.
Do you really think Belarusians want to start all over from 1991 by them selfs?It won't be the same. After all since 1991 we have lived with (sort of) a market economy (with many Soviet rudiments, though). For 20 years.

[Caeruleus]

I dont care what they do as long as they leave Moldova out of it. I dont want to see my contrymen getting killed, deported, treated like garbage by imperialistic scum. I would rather pay an extra buck for electricity/gas than be a Homo Sovieticus (a walking zombie).

[Joe McCarthy]

It's amusing that Putin's Soviet style ways are so blatant that even his protege Medvedev is putting out the word that another Putin presidency would be akin to the return of Brezhnev.

Soon, this anti-Western fanatic will be tossed into the ashbin of history.

[Albion]

It's amusing that Putin's Soviet style ways are so blatant that even his protege Medvedev is putting out the word that another Putin presidency would be akin to the return of Brezhnev.

Soon, this anti-Western fanatic will be tossed into the ashbin of history.

I doubt it, there's a personality cult around him. Many Russians like him I think, a lot of them still have Soviet nostalgia and all.

[Joe McCarthy]

I doubt it, there's a personality cult around him. Many Russians like him I think, a lot of them still have Soviet nostalgia and all.

His approval rating is probably no higher than 40 percent in the big cities. Might be higher in horse and buggy country, but the chances of him becoming president again decline by the month.

[Gordon Bennett]

You may be right, Joe, but I wouldn't bet against Putin.