My paleo-Balkan ancestors were Thracians

[Dušan]

I realized that most of my pre-Slavic ancestors were Thracians, not Ilyrians.

This is PCA K15 position of ancient examples of western Balkans (Ilyrians) and Eastern Balkans (Thracians).

https://i.imgur.com/XCw7Onp.png


This is their scaled modeling with modern populations

Illyrians are more related to north Italy:


Target: HRV_IA
Distance: 2.3731% / 0.02373117

85.4 Italian_Lombardy
4.6 Albanian
3.4 Italian_Bergamo
3.0 Sardinian
2.2 Darginian
1.4 Slovenian

...while Thracians are related to Sardinians and Greeks


Target: BGR_IA
Distance: 2.5746% / 0.02574585

35.0 Sardinian
20.6 Greek_Central_Anatolia
16.4 Greek_Ionia
14.0 Albanian
12.6 Italian_Molise
1.4 Greek_Kos


Now compare my position on K15 diagram with line between proto-Slavs (Belgorod) and Thracian example:

https://i.imgur.com/pSOpKlG.png

It is very close to this line.


Compare my nMonte K15 results with results of ancient examples.

Beside Slavic, it is Sardinians, Greeks and Bulgarians. No northern Italians here.

https://i.imgur.com/ss6rX5T.jpg

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?280471-Eurogenes-K15-nmonte

[Jana]

Agree :)

[vbnetkhio]

quote

BGR_IA doesn't plot right in gedmatch calculators.

in global25 you can see that actually most of the Balkans, including Serbs, can be modelled as BGR_IA+Baltic/Slavic influence.

only Croats from Zagreb, Slovenian and Hungarians get Slavic + HRV_IA instead.

also what's interesting, Anatolia_IA sample from before the Cimmerian invasion was very similar to BGR_IA.

[Dušan]

This could mean two things:

1) Not all Dinaric area was settled by Illyrians, some of it was settled by Thracian-like people

or

2) Most of my ancestors were by origin eastern from Dinaric area, possibly Kosovo, Moravian part of Serbia, Macedonia.

[Ylla]

I think these samples are not enough, we can't make conclusions about those populations in general.

[Jana]

BGR_IA doesn't plot right in gedmatch calculators.

in global25 you can see that actually most of the Balkans, including Serbs, can be modelled as BGR_IA+Baltic/Slavic influence.

only Croats from Zagreb, Slovenian and Hungarians get Slavic + HRV_IA instead.

also what's interesting, Anatolia_IA sample from before the Cimmerian invasion was very similar to BGR_IA.

Not true at all. My entire family is modeled as Belgorod + Bergamo, I get same on Global 25.

What Croats from Zagreb? It's Croatian average and I cluster close to it.

[Jana]

I think these samples are not enough, we can't make conclusions about those populations in general.

We can, for Croatia at least. All BA samples were same like this one, both from Panonnia and Dalmatia.

[Dušan]

BGR_IA doesn't plot right in gedmatch calculators.

in global25 you can see that actually most of the Balkans, including Serbs, can be modelled as BGR_IA+Baltic/Slavic influence.

only Croats from Zagreb, Slovenian and Hungarians get Slavic + HRV_IA instead.

also what's interesting, Anatolia_IA sample from before the Cimmerian invasion was very similar to BGR_IA.

What is its right position in K15 map-diagram?

[Jana]

Btw Croats who can't be modeled with ancient Croatian samples have origins from central and eastern Balkans, simple as that. Lot of people came from east during Ottoman times.

My Paleo-Balkan ancestors were clear Illyrians.

[vbnetkhio]

Not true at all. My entire family is modeled as Belgorod + Bergamo, I get same on Global 25.

What Croats from Zagreb? It's Croatian average and I cluster close to it.

the Croatian samples in Global25 are from Zagreb and "mainland". Maybe Dalmatian Croats would get BGR_IA.

[Jana]

the Croatian samples in Global25 are from Zagreb and "mainland". Maybe Dalmatian Croats would get BGR_IA.

I am Dalmatian Croat and in Dalmatia lived Illyrians.
Hungarian samples are from Budapest and Slovenian from Ljubljana so? But you didn't mention that. People who get Thracians are not native here.

[Jana]

And no, northern Croats are not modeled like this.
Ph2ter and his family are Slavic amd Celtic, not Slavic and Illyrian. He never gets these samples on Global 25, unlike me.

[TheMaestro]

According to gedmatch most of Serbs are Bulgarians, would you trust such a shit calculator my friend? It cant tell your modern population let alone ancient.

[Jana]

According to gedmatch most of Serbs are Bulgarians, would you trust such a shit calculator my friend? It cant tell your modern population let alone ancient.

Big fail. He is not close to Bulgarians at all.

[TheMaestro]

Big fail. He is not close to Bulgarians at all.

Not really, Im talking about Serbians in general, eurogenes shifts them towards eastern Balkans first.

[vbnetkhio]

What is its right position in K15 map-diagram?

something like Central Greece

[Jana]

Not really, Im talking about Serbians in general, eurogenes shifts them towards eastern Balkans first.

Yes and why is that weird? They are pretty different from us. Serbia itself was mostly Thracian zone except western Serbia.

[Dušan]

According to gedmatch most of Serbs are Bulgarians, would you trust such a shit calculator my friend? It cant tell your modern population let alone ancient.

Thracians didn't live just in todays Bulgaria, but in large parts of todays Serbia.

There were also Dardanians who were between Thracians and Ilyrians, they have lived in most of south Serbia and Kosovo.

I wonder if is that Ilyrian (north Italian-like) sample is representative to all Dinaric area, including Herzegovina or not?
Maybe southeast part of Dinaric Alps have different genetic, closer to that Thracian sample.
Because, most of Krajina Serbs were settled in Krajina from Herzegovina.

[TheMaestro]

Yes and why is that weird? They are pretty different from us. Serbia itself was mostly Thracian zone except western Serbia.

I'm talking about innacurate calculator, nothing to do with race or your suggesting agenda that Serbs and Croats are close like Koreans and French

[Jana]

I'm talking about innacurate calculator, nothing to do with race or your suggesting agenda that Serbs and Croats are close like Koreans and French

It is not innacurate at all when all pro studies say the same lol. And dont imply what I never said.

Dusan is very Slavic and different from Croats.

[Jana]

Thracians didn't live just in todays Bulgaria, but in large parts of todays Serbia.

There were also Dardanians who were between Thracians and Ilyrians, they have lived in most of south Serbia and Kosovo.

I wonder if is that Ilyrian (north Italian-like) sample is representative to all Dinaric area, including Herzegovina or not?
Maybe southeast part of Dinaric Alps have different genetic, closer to that Thracian sample.
Because, most of Krajina Serbs were settled in Krajina from Herzegovina.

Could be, we still lack southern Illyrian results from Albania proper for example. They could be different (more influenced by Greeks)

[TheMaestro]

Thracians didn't live just in todays Bulgaria, but in large parts of todays Serbia.

There were also Dardanians who were between Thracians and Ilyrians, they have lived in most of south Serbia and Kosovo.

I wonder if is that Ilyrian (north Italian-like) sample is representative to all Dinaric area, including Herzegovina or not?
Maybe southeast part of Dinaric Alps have different genetic, closer to that Thracian sample.
Because, most of Krajina Serbs are settled in Krajina from Herzegovina.

You guys don't understand me, Im saying that calculator is unreliable and that it doesn't show modern populations correctly letalone you finding out your ancient ancestors.
You could find those out via halogroups or ancestry not gedmatch. And to add proto-Dardanians were Illyrians as far as I know.

[vbnetkhio]

And no, northern Croats are not modeled like this.


those samples from Zagreb are. and Hungarians and Slovenians on g25 too.

[Jana]

Seems some of you don't understand these samples are from Global 25, not gedmatch (but it says the same so it doesnt matter)

[Dušan]

You guys don't understand me, Im saying that calculator is unreliable and that it doesn't show modern populations correctly letalone you finding out your ancient ancestors.
You could find those out via halogroups or ancestry not gedmatch. And to add proto-Dardanians were Illyrians as far as I know.

It is not certian that they were Illyrians.


The Dardani (/ˈdɑːrdənaɪ/; Ancient Greek: Δαρδάνιοι, Δάρδανοι; Latin: Dardani), or Dardanians (Δαρδανίωνες) were an Indo-European tribe which settled in the region that took its name from them of Dardania,[1][2] at the Thraco-Illyrian contact zone. Their identification as either an Illyrian or Thracian tribe is uncertain.[3][4][5] They and their territory were by most writers not considered part of Illyria.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardani

[Jana]

those samples from Zagreb are. and Hungarians and Slovenians on g25 too.

Because they are not northern Croats. They are average Croats and hunderds of tousands of southern and eastern Croats live in Zagreb.

Actuall northern Croats are like Ph2ter and his family, who are from smaller towns in NW Croatia.

I am not close to northern Croats but close to average Croats.
Hungarians also have large German and exotic minor input, less Slavic too. They Illrian part is quite irrelevant.

[Dušan]

Could be, we still lack southern Illyrian results from Albania proper for example. They could be different (more influenced by Greeks)

Yes. We need samples from east Herzegovina and Montenegro, to see were they closer to modern North Italians, or to modern Sardinians and Greeks.

[Jana]

Yes. We need samples from east Herzegovina and Montenegro, to see were they closer to modern North Italians, or to modern Sardinians and Greeks.

Agree.
PS this Thracian close to south/central Italian and Greeks.
His Sardinaian part is from older Balkan neolithic population.

[TheMaestro]

It is not innacurate at all when all pro studies say the same lol. And dont imply what I never said.

Dusan is very Slavic and different from Croats.

Lol, Gedmatch is literally a calculator, how you can get out ancient ancestry out of it.

Let's say there a guy who contains number 1 and 10 - gedmatch matches him with number 5
If theres a guy who contains number 2 and 11 gedmatch matches him with number 5 too
Do those 2 guys share anything? Absolutely not, but they plot the same, that's how gedmatch works, now tell me how is that supposed to tell you, your anciesnt ancestry, it's alogical.
As I said you Y-DNA and DNA testing proves your ties, not gedmatch. Or websites like yourancientancestry where basically modern populations are just substitued by the old ones, it's even more hilarious seeing people paying for that.

[Jana]

Lol, Gedmatch is literally a calculator, how you can get out ancient ancestry out of it.

Let's say there a guy who contains number 1 and 10 - gedmatch matches him with number 5
If theres a guy who contains number 2 and 11 gedmatch matches him with number 5 too
Do those 2 guys share anything? Absolutely not, but they plot the same, that's how gedmatch works, now tell me how is that supposed to tell you, your anciesnt ancestry, it's alogical.
As I said you Y-DNA and DNA testing proves your ties, not gedmatch. Or websites like yourancientancestry where basically modern populations are just substitued by the old ones, it's even more hilarious seeing people paying for that.

This is not gedmatch. Wtf?
Ancient samples are on G25 and we compared to to which modern populations they are closest. What's not clear here?

Also autosomal >>> Haplogroups

[Mingle]

Illyrians were probably genetically diverse with those from modern day Serbia possibly being genetically closer to BGR IA than to HRV IA. I wouldn't use HRV IA as representative of all IA Illyrians.

[Dušan]

Illyrians were probably genetically diverse with those from modern day Serbia possibly being genetically closer to BGR IA than to HRV IA. I wouldn't use HRV IA as representative of all IA Illyrians.

It could be. Maybe they were not homogeneous population.
We need samples from modern Serbia, Montenegro and eastern Bosnia-Herzegovina.

[TheMaestro]

This is not gedmatch. Wtf?
Ancient samples are on G25 and we compared to to which modern populations they are closest. What's not clear here?

Also autosomal >>> Haplogroups

Then I don't know, I thought g25 is some calc from gedmatch, who knows.

+ I never mentioned halogroups being more important than autosomal.

[Jana]

Illyrians were probably genetically diverse with those from modern day Serbia possibly being genetically closer to BGR IA than to HRV IA. I wouldn't use HRV IA as representative of all IA Illyrians.

Pre-Illyrians from far eastern Slavonia were same North Italian like.
Serbia is fringe of Illyrian world and if they were closer to Thracians it means they were mixed with them, simple as that.

[Jana]

Illyrians proper were in Albania. Than such term spread to include other western Balkan barbarians.
But haplogroups of northern Illyrians from Croatia are typical Albanian, so they were obviously very related.

[vbnetkhio]

two closest models including Av2 for Balkan ethnicities:

Albanian
"37.4 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 62.6 % Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2"
"68.5 % BGR_IA + 31.5 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2"

Bosnian
"56.6 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 43.4 % IND_Roopkund_B" "0.01"
"58.2 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 41.8 % ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance" "0.0101"

Croat
"56.9 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 43.1 % ITA_Rome_MA" "0.0089"
"59.8 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 40.2 % ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity" "0.0093"

Bulgarian
"35.1 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 64.9 % IND_Roopkund_B" "0.0061"
"44.2 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 55.8 % ITA_Rome_Imperial" "0.0086"

Hungarian
"63.5 % DEU_MA_ACD + 36.5 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2" "0.0091"
"45.3 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 54.7 % HUN_MA_Szolad" "0.0095"

Serb
"58.2 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 41.8 % Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2" "0.0091"
"45.3 % BGR_IA + 54.7 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2" "0.0104"

Montengrin
"52.7 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 47.3 % ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o" "0.0083"
"46.6 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 53.4 % ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance" "0.0084"

Macedonian
"39.2 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 60.8 % IND_Roopkund_B" "0.0097"
"49.5 % BGR_IA + 50.5 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2" 0.0115

Romanian
"39.2 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 60.8 % ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity" "0.0093"
"38.4 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 61.6 % IND_Roopkund_B" "0.0096"

Slovenians
"58.5 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 41.5 % ITA_Rome_MA" "0.009"
"60.6 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 39.4 % ITA_Proto-Villanovan" "0.0094

[Jana]

Morava river in Serbia is accepted as ethnical border between Illyrian and Thracian tribes by most scholars. There was obviously transitional Thraco-Illyrian zone as well.
https://st.depositphotos.com/1287721/3934/v/950/depositphotos_39340855-stock-illustration-map-of-serbia.jpg

[Jana]

Then I don't know, I thought g25 is some calc from gedmatch, who knows.

+ I never mentioned halogroups being more important than autosomal.

Well those samples from Croatia had J2b2-L283, R1b-L23 and sample from Bulgaria E1b.

[Hulu]

Illyrians proper were in Albania. Than such term spread to include other western Balkan barbarians.
But haplogroups of northern Illyrians from Croatia are typical Albanian, so they were obviously very related.

When?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/Prefecture_of_Illyricum_map.png

[ixulescu]

When?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/Prefecture_of_Illyricum_map.png

This map is incorrect anyway.

Constantine retook Dacia in 334 AD after a decade long campaign, which included the construction of a second bridge over the Danube.

[Jana]

When?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/Prefecture_of_Illyricum_map.png

Lol

This had nothing to do with Illyrians. Illyricum was Dalmatia + Panonnia
We are speaking about Iron Age.

[Ylla]

We can, for Croatia at least. All BA samples were same like this one, both from Panonnia and Dalmatia.

Fair enough, I mean in albania they may have been different. But also much of Eastern genetics probably came much later.

[Jana]

Fair enough, I mean in albania they may have been different. But also much of Eastern genetics probably came much later.

Yep. These are northern Illyrians only, southern Illyrians don't need to be the same. But haplogroups are good indication of relation.

[Jana]

The territory the Illyrians inhabited came to be known as Illyria to Greek and Roman authors, who identified a territory that corresponds to Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Slovenia, Montenegro, Kosovo, part of Serbia and most of central and northern Albania, between the Adriatic Sea in the west, the Drava river in the north, the Morava river in the east and the mouth of the Aoos river in the south.

The name "Illyrians", as applied by the ancient Greeks to their northern neighbors, may have referred to a broad, ill-defined group of peoples. The Illyrian tribes never collectively regarded themselves as 'Illyrians', and it is unlikely that they used any collective nomenclature for themselves. In fact, Illyrians seems to be the name of a specific Illyrian tribe that was among the first to come in contact with the ancient Greeks during the Bronze Age, with the Greeks later applying pars pro toto the name Illyrians to all people with similar language and customs. At present it is unclear to what extent the Illyrians were linguistically and culturally homogeneous. In fact, Illyric origin was and still is attributed also to a few ancient peoples residing in Italy: the Iapyges, Dauni, and Messapi, who are thought to have most likely followed Adriatic shorelines to the Italian peninsula from the geographic "Illyria".

[Hulu]

This map is incorrect anyway.

Constantine retook Dacia in 334 AD after a decade long campaign, which included the construction of a second bridge over the Danube.

It's a historical map

[andre]

two closest models including Av2 for Balkan ethnicities:

Albanian
"37.4 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 62.6 % Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2"
"68.5 % BGR_IA + 31.5 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2"

Bosnian
"56.6 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 43.4 % IND_Roopkund_B" "0.01"
"58.2 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 41.8 % ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance" "0.0101"

Croat
"56.9 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 43.1 % ITA_Rome_MA" "0.0089"
"59.8 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 40.2 % ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity" "0.0093"

Bulgarian
"35.1 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 64.9 % IND_Roopkund_B" "0.0061"
"44.2 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 55.8 % ITA_Rome_Imperial" "0.0086"

Hungarian
"63.5 % DEU_MA_ACD + 36.5 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2" "0.0091"
"45.3 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 54.7 % HUN_MA_Szolad" "0.0095"

Serb
"58.2 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 41.8 % Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2" "0.0091"
"45.3 % BGR_IA + 54.7 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2" "0.0104"

Montengrin
"52.7 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 47.3 % ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o" "0.0083"
"46.6 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 53.4 % ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance" "0.0084"

Macedonian
"39.2 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 60.8 % IND_Roopkund_B" "0.0097"
"49.5 % BGR_IA + 50.5 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2" 0.0115

Romanian
"39.2 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 60.8 % ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity" "0.0093"
"38.4 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 61.6 % IND_Roopkund_B" "0.0096"

Slovenians
"58.5 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 41.5 % ITA_Rome_MA" "0.009"
"60.6 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 39.4 % ITA_Proto-Villanovan" "0.0094

IND_roopkund_B it’s a medieval greek?

[Jana]

Core Illyrian tribes

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Illyrii_Proprie_Dicti_aka_Illyrians_Proper_aka_Doc leatae.svg

We have no samples from them

[Jana]

In case of Croatians, I prefer names like Dalmatians and Panonnians. Those were North Italian/Iberian like, and they are my non-Slavic part.

[vbnetkhio]

IND_roopkund_B it’s a medieval greek?

i wasn't sure, but it seems it is. it has Slavic influence so it's not good for making these models. i'll do a list without it

[,1] [,2]
[1,] "Greek_Crete" "0.0079"
[2,] "Greek_Ionia" "0.0084"
[3,] "Italian_Basilicata" "0.0088"
[4,] "Greek_Kos" "0.0088"
[5,] "Italian_Apulia" "0.0097"
[6,] "Italian_Calabria" "0.0101"
[7,] "Italian_Campania" "0.0104"
[8,] "Greek" "0.0113"
[9,] "Italian_Molise" "0.0115"
[10,] "Italian_Abruzzo" "0.0116"
[11,] "Sicilian_East" "0.0147"
[12,] "Albanian" "0.0148"
[13,] "Italian_Lazio" "0.0155"
[14,] "Italian_Marche" "0.0155"
[15,] "Maltese" "0.0157"
[16,] "Italian_Umbria" "0.0159"
[17,] "Romaniote_Jew" "0.0162"
[18,] "Ashkenazi_Jew" "0.0162"
[19,] "Sicilian_West" "0.0164"
[20,] "Italian_Jew" "0.0165"
[,1] [,2]
[1,] "27.2 % Bulgarian + 72.8 % Greek_Kos" "0.0048"
[2,] "75.8 % Greek_Kos + 24.2 % Romanian" "0.005"
[3,] "78.4 % Greek_Kos + 21.6 % Serbian" "0.0051"
[4,] "34.1 % Albanian + 65.9 % Greek_Kos" "0.0051"
[5,] "72.9 % Greek_Kos + 27.1 % Moldavian" "0.0053"
[6,] "41.3 % Greek + 58.7 % Greek_Kos" "0.0053"
[7,] "77 % Greek_Kos + 23 % Macedonian" "0.0055"
[8,] "26.4 % Gagauz + 73.6 % Greek_Kos" "0.0055"
[9,] "36.7 % Greek + 63.3 % Greek_Crete" "0.0055"
[10,] "84.1 % Greek_Kos + 15.9 % Slovenian" "0.0056"
[11,] "16.4 % Croatian + 83.6 % Greek_Kos" "0.0056"
[12,] "51.9 % Greek_Ionia + 48.1 % Greek_Kos" "0.0056"
[13,] "37.8 % Cypriot + 62.2 % Greek" "0.0057"
[14,] "89.3 % Greek_Kos + 10.7 % Russian_Smolensk" "0.0057"
[15,] "79.8 % Greek_Kos + 20.2 % Montenegrin" "0.0058"
[16,] "84.5 % Greek_Kos + 15.5 % Hungarian" "0.0058"
[17,] "88.8 % Greek_Kos + 11.2 % Russian_Voronez" "0.0058"
[18,] "87.3 % Greek_Kos + 12.7 % Tatar_Mishar" "0.0058"
[19,] "90.2 % Greek_Kos + 9.8 % Russian_Pinega" "0.0059"
[20,] "10.3 % Belarusian + 89.7 % Greek_Kos" "0.0059"

[Mingle]

I don't think it has Slavic influence. Its probably just a northern shift that existed from ancient times.

[vbnetkhio]

I don't think it has Slavic influence. Its probably just a northern shift that existed from ancient times.

g25 is better than that. if it was that ancient northern shift he would get Yamnaya or Corded ware, not Bulgarian and Romanian

[ixulescu]

It's a historical map

It should depict that period, but it does a bad job. There are plenty of nomadic tribes listed north of Danube, but the main, sedentary, population is not mentioned. That's pretty bad.

Also the main change of borders in that area during the marked period is not represented on the map. It's good for the trash heap, like most "historical" maps.

[Mingle]

g25 is better than that. if it was that ancient northern shift he would get Yamnaya or Corded ware, not Bulgarian and Romanian

Yamnaya and Corded Ware are more ancient. Roopkund B doesn't get them cause of genetic drift. Most northeastern DNA among Bulgarians and Romanians probably comes from Slavs, but some of it comes from IA populations as well. Iron Age Thracians and Paeonians wouldn't have plotted like Cretans and Sicilians but north of them. Same applies to Iron Age Mainland Greeks. Besides the fact that IA Mainland Greeks likely were northern shifted compared to Sicilians/Cretans, Greeks (especially mainland ones) would have also shared some non-northern DNA with modern Bulgarians and Romanians that would make them select those populations in mixed mode modeling instead of Yamnaya/CW (in addition to genetic drift).

Roopkund B is a sample of a Greek descendant in India. The Greeks in South/Central Asia were descended from the soldiers of the Macedonian Empire. The Greeks would have thus arrived in S/C Asia before Slavs arrived to the Balkans. So the Greek sample couldn't have had Slavic influence based on the history of the region.

[vbnetkhio]

list without IND_Roopkund_B

Bosnians
"58.2 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 41.8 % ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance" "0.0101"
"63.4 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 36.6 % ITA_Prenestini_tribe_IA_o" "0.0106"

Bulgarians
"44.2 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 55.8 % ITA_Rome_Imperial" "0.0086"
"37.3 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 62.7 % ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity" "0.0091"

Macedonians
"49.5 % BGR_IA + 50.5 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2"
"48 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 52 % ITA_Rome_Imperial" "0.0118"

Romanians
"39.2 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 60.8 % ITA_Rome_Late_Antiquity" "0.0093"
"40.8 % HUN_Avar_Szolad_Av2 + 59.2 % ITA_Tivoli_Renaissance" "0.01"

[vbnetkhio]

Yamnaya and Corded Ware are more ancient. Roopkund B doesn't get them cause of genetic drift. Most northeastern DNA among Bulgarians and Romanians probably comes from Slavs, but some of it comes from IA populations as well.

i think only Balto-Slavs in g25 have a post bronze age drift in g25. Mycenaeans and HRV_IA can still be modelled well with Yamnaya and Corded ware and neolithic samples


Roopkund B is a sample of a Greek descendant in India.

is this confirmed? these samples, there's more of them, seem to be from different groups of modern Greeks, or maybe medievals who were already like modern ones

[Mingle]

i think only Balto-Slavs in g25 have a post bronze age drift in g25. Mycenaeans and HRV_IA can still be modelled well with Yamnaya and Corded ware and neolithic samples

Myceneans and HRV IA would be a bit more distant to Romanians and Bulgarians than Medieval Greeks were, both in time period and geography (and thus would've had less similar ancestral components as well).

Also, as I mentioned, there's a lot of shared non-Slavic ancestry between Greeks, Romanians, and Bulgarians. In fact, the majority of their shared ancestry is non-Slavic.


is this confirmed? these samples, there's more of them, seem to be from different groups of modern Greeks, or maybe medievals who were already like modern ones

Roopkund is an archaeological site in India. Not all the Roopkund samples are Greeks. However, its logical to assume that they were Greek descendants of the Macedonian Empire Greeks since they cluster with Greeks. Those that cluster with Indians (Roopkund A) can be assumed to have been native Indians.

[Dick]

Čestitam Dule. :food-smiley-004:

[Kaspias]

IND_roopkund_B it’s a medieval greek?


i wasn't sure, but it seems it is. it has Slavic influence so it's not good for making these models. i'll do a list without it

[,1] [,2]
[1,] "Greek_Crete" "0.0079"
[2,] "Greek_Ionia" "0.0084"
[3,] "Italian_Basilicata" "0.0088"
[4,] "Greek_Kos" "0.0088"
[5,] "Italian_Apulia" "0.0097"
[6,] "Italian_Calabria" "0.0101"
[7,] "Italian_Campania" "0.0104"
[8,] "Greek" "0.0113"
[9,] "Italian_Molise" "0.0115"
[10,] "Italian_Abruzzo" "0.0116"
[11,] "Sicilian_East" "0.0147"
[12,] "Albanian" "0.0148"
[13,] "Italian_Lazio" "0.0155"
[14,] "Italian_Marche" "0.0155"
[15,] "Maltese" "0.0157"
[16,] "Italian_Umbria" "0.0159"
[17,] "Romaniote_Jew" "0.0162"
[18,] "Ashkenazi_Jew" "0.0162"
[19,] "Sicilian_West" "0.0164"
[20,] "Italian_Jew" "0.0165"
[,1] [,2]
[1,] "27.2 % Bulgarian + 72.8 % Greek_Kos" "0.0048"
[2,] "75.8 % Greek_Kos + 24.2 % Romanian" "0.005"
[3,] "78.4 % Greek_Kos + 21.6 % Serbian" "0.0051"
[4,] "34.1 % Albanian + 65.9 % Greek_Kos" "0.0051"
[5,] "72.9 % Greek_Kos + 27.1 % Moldavian" "0.0053"
[6,] "41.3 % Greek + 58.7 % Greek_Kos" "0.0053"
[7,] "77 % Greek_Kos + 23 % Macedonian" "0.0055"
[8,] "26.4 % Gagauz + 73.6 % Greek_Kos" "0.0055"
[9,] "36.7 % Greek + 63.3 % Greek_Crete" "0.0055"
[10,] "84.1 % Greek_Kos + 15.9 % Slovenian" "0.0056"
[11,] "16.4 % Croatian + 83.6 % Greek_Kos" "0.0056"
[12,] "51.9 % Greek_Ionia + 48.1 % Greek_Kos" "0.0056"
[13,] "37.8 % Cypriot + 62.2 % Greek" "0.0057"
[14,] "89.3 % Greek_Kos + 10.7 % Russian_Smolensk" "0.0057"
[15,] "79.8 % Greek_Kos + 20.2 % Montenegrin" "0.0058"
[16,] "84.5 % Greek_Kos + 15.5 % Hungarian" "0.0058"
[17,] "88.8 % Greek_Kos + 11.2 % Russian_Voronez" "0.0058"
[18,] "87.3 % Greek_Kos + 12.7 % Tatar_Mishar" "0.0058"
[19,] "90.2 % Greek_Kos + 9.8 % Russian_Pinega" "0.0059"
[20,] "10.3 % Belarusian + 89.7 % Greek_Kos" "0.0059"

y-DNA of Roopkund_B samples:

1. J1a3a
2. R1a1a1b1a2b
3. G2a2b2a1a1c1a2
4. R1b1ab
5. T1a2
6. E1b1b1b2


https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1038%2Fs41467-019-11357-9/MediaObjects/41467_2019_11357_Fig2_HTML.png?as=webp

SNP calls: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_53CE_Q5vpjvpngSo3JMX_SSp6UuaD3msDc1bJNmtBc/edit#gid=1185572501

I6936 and I3404 appear to be Mainland Greeks.
I6397 may be a South Italian.
I3405, I6939, and I3403 seem to be Cretans, but possibly also South Italians.
I6935 is a Cappadocian Greek (from Central Anatolia).

However, I3350 appears to be Italian.

The study says the Roopkund_B individuals were born in the eastern Mediterranean during the period of Ottoman political control. Greece is the best fit in this scenario and at least few samples appear to be from mainland Greece (Fig. 2b.) Eurogenes confirmed one sample is an Anatolian Greek. Cretans can be ruled out because the Roopkund_B individuals subsisted on a predominantly terrestrial diet and they may have lived in an inland location. The Greeks were the maritime carriers of the Ottoman Empire and they were as dominant as Italians in the fields of commerce and business.


The Roopkund_B cluster is more puzzling. It is tempting to hypothesize that the Roopkund_B individuals descend from Indo-Greek populations established after the time of Alexander the Great, who may have contributed ancestry to some present-day groups like the Kalash21. However, this is unlikely, as such a group would be expected to have admixture with groups with more typical South Asian ancestry (as the Kalash do), or would be expected to be inbred and to have relatively low genetic diversity. However, the Roopkund_B individuals have evidence for neither pattern (Supplementary Note 9). Combining different lines of evidence, the data suggest instead that what we have sampled is a group of unrelated men and women who were born in the eastern Mediterranean during the period of Ottoman political control. As suggested by their consumption of a predominantly terrestrial, rather than marine-based diet, they may have lived in an inland location, eventually traveling to and dying in the Himalayas. Whether they were participating in a pilgrimage, or were drawn to Roopkund Lake for other reasons, is a mystery.

[Dušan]

Čestitam Dule

:o

I just want to find out why I don't get any North Italian - if it is supposed to be closest to Illyrians, in all these calculators.
What is your usual non-Slavic part in nmonte and mixed oracle?

[Jana]

You may be bit more Slavic than me (I am in 55-65% range) you may be around 70% in fact, right? You are very Slavic Dušan.
But I plot more northern than you do because my pre-Slavic part was considerably more NW shifted than yours.

[Dušan]

You may be bit more Slavic than me (I am in 60-65 range) you may be around 70% in fact, right? You are very Slavic Dušan.
But I plot more northern than you do because my pre-Slavic part was considerably more NW shifted than yours.

I am 63% Slavic according to FTDNA, and 58-68% according to Eurogenes calculators K13 and K15.

[Jana]

I am 63% Slavic according to FTDNA, and 58-68% according to Eurogenes calculators K13 and K15.

Almost same as me than. K13 closest mixed mode:

58.8% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 41.2% North_Italian @ 3.88

My father is almost identical to me:

57% Southwest_Russian + 43% North_Italian @ 2.59

[CommonSense]

It's like you guys forget that many people from the outside were settled by the Romans in this region. In the eastern Dinaric zone we have many people today with non paleo-Balkanic and non-Slavic Y-DNA haplogroups like j2a, j2b-m205, g2a-l497, etc, which is a testament that the people who lived here before Serbs arrived can't be defined as only Illyrians or Thracians.

[vbnetkhio]

Myceneans and HRV IA would be a bit more distant to Romanians and Bulgarians than Medieval Greeks were, both in time period and geography (and thus would've had less similar ancestral components as well).

Also, as I mentioned, there's a lot of shared non-Slavic ancestry between Greeks, Romanians, and Bulgarians. In fact, the majority of their shared ancestry is non-Slavic.

i'm confused now.
if that sample gets 30% Bulgarian + 70% Greek islander as the best match, and Bulgarian average contains 40% Slavic in it, than this sample surely has around 12% actual Slavic influence, not just any northern shift.
he isn't just matching one part of the Bulgarian. he matches everything that's contained in the Bulgarian average.


However, its logical to assume that they were Greek descendants of the Macedonian Empire Greeks since they cluster with Greeks.
they cluster with modern Cretans who have strong Slavic, Germanic and Middle eastern influences.
ancient Macedonians and Greeks would be closer to Mycenaeans or BGR_IA

[Pribislav]

I am Dalmatian Croat and in Dalmatia lived Illyrians.
Hungarian samples are from Budapest and Slovenian from Ljubljana so? But you didn't mention that. People who get Thracians are not native here.

Only 50% dear.

Don't be ashamed of your paternal muslim ancestors from Dubca!

[Jana]

Only 50% dear.

Don't be ashamed of your paternal muslim ancestors from Dubca!

Also from interior Dalmatia by origin.

[vbnetkhio]

I just want to find out why I don't get any North Italian - if it is supposed to be closest to Illyrians, in all these calculators.


only the Delmatian samples are similar to North Italians.

i think the border between HRV_IA-like tribes and BGR_IA-like tribes passed somewhere through modern Montenegro and Bosnia, based on k13 results of people from those areas.

[Jana]

only the Delmatian samples are similar to North Italians.

Not only. Slavonia and Baranja bronze age samples too.
Vučedol (R1b-Z2103)

Eurogenes K13

1 North_Atlantic 31.01
2 West_Med 28.48
3 East_Med 15
4 West_Asian 13.66
5 Baltic 8.97
6 Red_Sea 2.66
7 Oceanian 0.18
8 Amerindian 0.05

1 North_Italian 7.92
2 Tuscan 10.81
3 Spanish_Andalucia 11.2
4 Spanish_Extremadura 11.37
5 Portuguese 12.51
6 Spanish_Murcia 13.02
7 Spanish_Galicia 13.08
8 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 13.14
9 Spanish_Valencia 13.28
10 Spanish_Cataluna 13.52
11 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 13.88
12 Spanish_Cantabria 14.72
13 Italian_Abruzzo 15.22
14 Spanish_Aragon 15.66
15 West_Sicilian 15.88
16 Southwest_French 16.07
17 Greek_Thessaly 16.84
18 French 17.23
19 Romanian 18.45
20 Central_Greek 18.66

1 71.9% Southwest_French + 28.1% Armenian @ 3.52
2 80.7% Spanish_Andalucia + 19.3% Georgian @ 3.66
3 81.6% Spanish_Andalucia + 18.4% Abhkasian @ 3.71
4 79% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + 21% Abhkasian @ 4.2
5 79.6% Spanish_Andalucia + 20.4% Adygei @ 4.22
6 73.9% Spanish_Cantabria + 26.1% Armenian @ 4.26
7 76.9% Spanish_Cantabria + 23.1% Abhkasian @ 4.28
8 78.1% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + 21.9% Georgian @ 4.28
9 75.7% Spanish_Aragon + 24.3% Abhkasian @ 4.37
10 79.8% Spanish_Andalucia + 20.2% Ossetian @ 4.38
11 74.6% Spanish_Aragon + 25.4% Georgian @ 4.39
12 75.9% Spanish_Cantabria + 24.1% Georgian @ 4.41
13 80.3% Spanish_Andalucia + 19.7% North_Ossetian @ 4.43
14 79.2% Spanish_Andalucia + 20.8% Balkar @ 4.44
15 72.8% Southwest_French + 27.2% Georgian_Jewish @ 4.54
16 79.3% Spanish_Andalucia + 20.7% Kabardin @ 4.59
17 62.3% French_Basque + 37.7% Georgian_Jewish @ 4.6
18 75.3% Southwest_French + 24.7% Abhkasian @ 4.63
19 74.2% Southwest_French + 25.8% Georgian @ 4.74
20 78.8% Spanish_Andalucia + 21.2% Kumyk @ 4.8

Eurogenes K15

1 Atlantic 25.55
2 West_Med 22.95
3 North_Sea 16.74
4 West_Asian 14.6
5 East_Med 11.36
6 Baltic 3.48
7 Red_Sea 2.79
8 Eastern_Euro 2.41
9 Oceanian 0.13


1 North_Italian 8.48
2 Spanish_Andalucia 10.72
3 Spanish_Extremadura 11.01
4 Tuscan 11.07
5 Portuguese 11.67
6 Spanish_Murcia 11.72
7 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 11.84
8 Spanish_Cataluna 12.06
9 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 12.2
10 Spanish_Valencia 12.23
11 Spanish_Galicia 12.66
12 Spanish_Cantabria 13.28
13 Spanish_Aragon 13.78
14 Southwest_French 14.8
15 Italian_Abruzzo 15.8
16 French 16.04
17 West_Sicilian 16.9
18 Greek_Thessaly 17.86
19 Greek 17.89
20 Bulgarian 18.27


1 78.8% Spanish_Cantabria + 21.2% Abhkasian @ 4.27
2 77.5% Spanish_Cantabria + 22.5% Georgian @ 4.28
3 81% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + 19% Abhkasian @ 4.58
4 76.9% Spanish_Aragon + 23.1% Georgian @ 4.61
5 78.2% Spanish_Aragon + 21.8% Abhkasian @ 4.62
6 79.9% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + 20.1% Georgian @ 4.62
7 83% Spanish_Andalucia + 17% Abhkasian @ 4.81
8 81.9% Spanish_Andalucia + 18.1% Georgian @ 4.86
9 81% Spanish_Andalucia + 19% Ossetian @ 5.04
10 75.6% Spanish_Cantabria + 24.4% Armenian @ 5.06
11 79.1% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + 20.9% Ossetian @ 5.23
12 82.8% Spanish_Extremadura + 17.2% Abhkasian @ 5.27
13 76% Spanish_Aragon + 24% Ossetian @ 5.32
14 80.9% Spanish_Valencia + 19.1% Abhkasian @ 5.34
15 79.8% Spanish_Valencia + 20.2% Georgian @ 5.43
16 81.9% Spanish_Extremadura + 18.1% Georgian @ 5.49
17 76.9% Spanish_Cantabria + 23.1% Ossetian @ 5.53
18 81.2% Spanish_Andalucia + 18.8% Adygei @ 5.54
19 81.8% Spanish_Andalucia + 18.2% North_Ossetian @ 5.54
20 80.8% Spanish_Andalucia + 19.2% Balkar @ 5.6

https://i.imgur.com/SItLIkm.png

Panonnian and Dalmatian Croatia was genetically homogenous.

[Jana]

Btw this sample gets Albanians pretty close on Puntadnal, on 3rd and 5th place

1 Italian_Tuscan 5
2 Italian_Bergamo 6.73
3 Albanian 7.35
4 Greek_Thessaly 7.56
5 Kosovar 7.79
6 Italian_Abruzzo 9.01
7 Macedonian 10.97
8 Greek_Central 11.29
9 Bulgarian 11.45
10 Spaniard 12.66
11 Ashkenazy_Jew 13.72
12 Italian_Sicilian 14.03
13 Montenegrin 14.17
14 Romanian 14.81
15 Serbian 15.7
16 Sephardic_Jew 18.04
17 French 18.47
18 Bosnian 19.5
19 French_Basque 20
20 Croatian 20.32

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

1 64.2% French_Basque + 35.8% Armenian @ 2.43
2 64.8% French_Basque + 35.2% Assyrian @ 2.72
3 63.8% French_Basque + 36.2% Turkish_Trabzon @ 3.07
4 59.1% French_Basque + 40.9% Turkish_Kayseri @ 3.27
5 85.7% Italian_Bergamo + 14.3% Turkish_Trabzon @ 3.37
6 62.6% French_Basque + 37.4% Azerbaijan_Azeri @ 3.37
7 74% Spaniard + 26% Turkish_Trabzon @ 3.41
8 70.4% Italian_Abruzzo + 29.6% French_Basque @ 3.54
9 56.8% French_Basque + 43.2% Turkish @ 3.55
10 82.1% Italian_Bergamo + 17.9% Cypriot @ 3.55
11 64.8% Greek_Central + 35.2% French_Basque @ 3.58
12 70.5% Italian_Bergamo + 29.5% Italian_Sicilian @ 3.6
13 65.4% French_Basque + 34.6% Kurdish @ 3.66
14 59.8% Ashkenazy_Jew + 40.2% French_Basque @ 3.76
15 63.6% French_Basque + 36.4% Abkhasian @ 3.78
16 70.4% Italian_Bergamo + 29.6% Ashkenazy_Jew @ 3.84
17 59.6% Italian_Bergamo + 40.4% Italian_Abruzzo @ 3.85
18 86.5% Italian_Bergamo + 13.5% Armenian @ 3.86
19 86.9% Italian_Bergamo + 13.1% Assyrian @ 3.94
20 85.8% Italian_Bergamo + 14.2% Lebanese_Druze @ 4.09

[Coolguy1]

Yes, Croatians are the only Balkan population who’s paleo balkan ancestry comes from an HRV_MBA source. This population was identical to modern day northern Italians and carries western european drift which is lacking in the Mycenaean and BGR_IA samples. Central Balkan populations (Serbs, Bulgarians etc) score mostly BGR_IA, which is similar to the Mycenaean samples but with significantly more steppe ancestry, less farmer ancestry, and less direct CHG ancestry. Interestingly. There is a UKR_Cimmerian samples which is basically 65% farmer and 35% steppe which many balkanites score as well. Its closest modern populations are Greeks, Albanians, and Northern Italians but without any balto-slavic drift, incredible.

Greeks and Albanians mostly score Mycenaeans and BGR_IA. Mainland Greece received admixture from a CHG rich middle eastern population (something Assyrian-like, perhaps) before the Slavic migration. Albanians show some of this admixture as well, but usually less.

[vbnetkhio]

Not only. Slavonia and Baranja bronze age samples too.
Vučedol (R1b-Z2103)


this sample is somewhat pre-indo-european, although he has indo european y-dna. those later samples from Dalmatia are like him + 30% Yamnaya

Hungarian Scythians are a probably better representation of Pannonians for most of the Bronze and Iron ages

[Dušan]

only the Delmatian samples are similar to North Italians.

i think the border between HRV_IA-like tribes and BGR_IA-like tribes passed somewhere through modern Montenegro and Bosnia, based on k13 results of people from those areas.

Still, I am significantly closer to the East-Balkan sample than to the West-Balkan sample.

https://i.imgur.com/OZYT7h0.png

There are two possibilities:
1) southeastern Dinaric area (Herzegovina, Montenegro) had different Illyrian genetics than northwestern Dinaric area with that sample.
2) majority of my ancestors come from some area outside the Dinaric Alps - Kosovo, Moravian Serbia, Macedonia.

[Jana]

Yes, Croatians are the only Balkan population who’s paleo balkan ancestry comes from an HRV_MBA source. This population was identical to modern day northern Italians and carries western european drift which is lacking in the Mycenaean and BGR_IA samples.

Explains why my family looks the way it does, I think. We look noticably more western European than other South Slavs, even many other Croats (not all of them have such admixture), and we have no Germanic and Celtic almost at all (I mean genetically). It comes from our native part.

[andre]

Personally i think that the northern illyrians and pannonians were close to the modern northern italian (due to the hallstadt admix probably) and the southern illyrians (montenegro, northern albanian) were similar to the Tuscan people. The Dacian-Thracian and Hellenic were similar to modern Abruzzo.
Someone could try this model for Croatians,Romanians,Bulgarians etc

Thraco-Hellenic:Abruzzo
North_Illyrian-Pannonian:Italian_Bergamo/Lombardy
Central/South_Illyrian:Italian_Tuscany
Slavic: Russian_Smolensk
Celto-Germanic: Dutch

[Jana]

this sample is somewhat pre-indo-european, although he has indo european y-dna. those later samples from Dalmatia are like him + 30% Yamnaya

Hungarian Scythians are a probably better representation of Pannonians for most of the Bronze and Iron ages

He has common Gheg Albanian ydna too, and this culture was ancestral to Illyrians.
Dalmatian samples are more north, but not that radically. They still get North Italian, just with extra NW input.

My guess is since this sample was much more eastern geographically, so it probably has Thracian like admixture.
Dalmatian samples are purer ofcourse.

[vbnetkhio]

Still, I am significantly closer to the East-Balkan sample than to the West-Balkan sample.


why wouldn't you be? read again what i said. most of Montenegrins and Bosniaks match BGR_IA better than HRV_IA.

[vbnetkhio]

He has common Gheg Albanian ydna too, and this culture was ancestral to Illyrians.
Dalmatian samples are more north, but not that radically. They still get North Italian, just with extra NW input.

My guess is since this sample was much more eastern geographically, so it probably has Thracian like admixture.
Dalmatians are purer ofcourse.

this is Davidski's model for that Italian sample which was probably an iron age North Balkan migrant in Italy

ITA_Proto-Villanovan
HRV_Vucedol 0.677±0.031
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara 0.323±0.031

[Jana]

this is Davidski's model for that Italian sample which was probably an iron age North Balkan migrant in Italy

ITA_Proto-Villanovan
HRV_Vucedol 0.677±0.031
Yamnaya_RUS_Samara 0.323±0.031

Somebody should tell Davidski he uploaded wrong Vučedol sample in G25. One there is fully neolithic, it's not this sample that is on gedmatch.
There was neolithic burial on Vučedol location too (G2a) and he uploaded them instead of R1b real Vučedol sample. It has 0% steppe admixture.

Somebody should tell him to correct the mistake.

[Dušan]

why wouldn't you be? read again what i said. most of Montenegrins and Bosniaks match BGR_IA better than HRV_IA.

Ok, I understand.

[Jana]

Fake Vučedol sample on G25 (actually Balkan neolithic from same location)

Target: HRV_Vucedol
Distance: 3.1323% / 0.03132340

93.8 Sardinian
5.6 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.6 Ju_hoan_North

Distance to: HRV_Vucedol
0.03163849 Sardinian

Can anybody reach out to him and say he should upload actual Vučedol R1b instead? There are 2 or 3 bronze age samples available, they are all good.

[vbnetkhio]

Fake Vučedol sample on G25 (actually Balkan neolithic from same location)

Target: HRV_Vucedol
Distance: 3.1323% / 0.03132340

93.8 Sardinian
5.6 Greek_Central_Anatolia
0.6 Ju_hoan_North

Distance to: HRV_Vucedol
0.03163849 Sardinian

Can anybody reach out to him and say he should upload actual Vučedol R1b instead? There are 2 or 3 bronze age samples available, they are all good.

ok, now it makes sense. that one with r1b is obvously very indo european, lol

[Jana]

ok, now it makes sense. that one with r1b is obvously very indo european, lol

I wrote about it elsewhere:

''NAPOMENA: ovo nije uzorak Vučedolske kulture, radi se o očiglednoj pogrešci kod imenovanja uzoraka od strane Davidskog, koji ih u uploada na G25 software. Naime, imamo pravi Vučedolski uzorak na gedmatch i nije nimalo nalik ovome, već je jako sličan brončano dobnom uzorku iz Dalmacije, oba su najsličnija Sjevernim Talijanima. Ovaj uzorak uopće nema stepske tj. Indo-Europske genetske primjese i identičan je neolitskom uzorku iz Sopot kulture. A Vučedol je Indo-Europska kultura.

Evo zašto se dogodila greška:

In the 2018 study, 10 out of 17 samples from Croatia had a successful Y-DNA sequencing;...late-Neolithic Sopot(4790-4558 BCE) from Beli Manastir-Popova zemlja to I, two Vučedol (2884-2582 BCE) samples from Beli Manastir-Popova zemlja and Vucedol Tell to R1b1a1a2a2 and G2a2a1a2a...

Sopot uzorci iz prethodnog posta su iz Osijeka, ali postoji još jedan koji je nađen zajedno sa Vučedolskim uzorcima na istoj lokaciji, Popova zemlja. David je očito uplodao taj Sopot uzorak sa Popove zemlje i krivo ga nazvao Vučedolskim. A pravi Vučedolski uzorak nije dostupan na G25, samo na gedmatch. Kontaktirati ću ga da ispravi pogrešku.''

[Jana]

Vučedol on gedmatch is actually neolithic Sopot sample from Popova zemlja, same location where Vučedol bronze age burials were located. Both of them were sequenced and published in academic paper.
Sopot samples from Osijek are available on G25 too, they are identical to this mislabeled ''Vučedol'' sample.

[Dick]

:o

I just want to find out why I don't get any North Italian - if it is supposed to be closest to Illyrians, in all these calculators.
What is your usual non-Slavic part in nmonte and mixed oracle?

Distance to: Dick_scaled

0.03860625 Scythian_HUN
0.04124453 DEU_MA_ACD
0.04392856 BGR_Varna_En3
0.04600005 HUN_MA
0.04630283 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky
0.04803802 HUN_MA_Szolad
0.05021775 ITA_Rome_Renaissance
0.05045205 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
0.05049105 Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL
0.05304502 ITA_Collegno_MA
0.05505445 CZE_Early_Slav
0.05735294 Scythian_MDA
0.05794698 HUN_LBA
0.05938043 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria
0.05987774 HUN_BA_o
0.06040158 Levant_LBN_MA_Euro
0.06083896 HUN_MA_Szolad_o2
0.06111763 Bell_Beaker_CHE
0.06142470 Bell_Beaker_CZE
0.06163306 DEU_Lech_EBA
0.06257557 DEU_Lech_BBC
0.06262716 ITA_Proto-Villanovan
0.06387824 DEU_Alberstedt_LN
0.06409007 SVK_Poprad_MA
0.06446861 HUN_Avar_Szolad


Target: Dick_scaled

Distance: 0.9030% / 0.00902972
27.6 KAZ_Golden_Horde_Euro
17.6 Bell_Beaker_CZE_o
14.2 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res
10.6 MKD_N
7.4 Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res
7.2 USA_colonial_period
4.4 UKR_Cimmerian
4.0 IRN_Hajji_Firuz_IA
2.6 UKR_Trypillia
2.2 Anatolia_Kumtepe_N_low_res
1.2 Anatolia_Isparta_EBA
0.6 RUS_Yana_MA
0.4 IND_Roopkund_B_o



Distance to: Dick_dad_scaled

0.03769781 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky
0.03783654 Scythian_HUN
0.04099574 DEU_MA_ACD
0.04102466 BGR_Varna_En3
0.04300094 HUN_MA
0.04313454 HUN_MA_Szolad
0.04585076 Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA
0.04642891 Iberia_Northeast_c.6CE_PL
0.04657769 ITA_Rome_Renaissance
0.05024293 CZE_Early_Slav
0.05050606 ITA_Collegno_MA
0.05344444 Bell_Beaker_Bavaria
0.05557298 DEU_Alberstedt_LN
0.05564641 Bell_Beaker_CZE
0.05588509 HUN_LBA
0.05610915 DEU_Lech_EBA
0.05654791 DEU_Lech_BBC
0.05658986 Levant_LBN_MA_Euro
0.05704806 SVK_Poprad_MA
0.05755915 HUN_MA_Szolad_o2
0.05816048 Bell_Beaker_CHE
0.06037068 Bell_Beaker_POL
0.06037117 DEU_MA
0.06040790 CZE_Hallstatt_Bylany
0.06079339 Scythian_MDA


Target: Dick_dad_scaled

Distance: 1.3530% / 0.01352997
35.0 KAZ_Golden_Horde_Euro
13.2 USA_colonial_period
10.4 ROU_N
7.6 MKD_N
6.8 UKR_Srubnaya_MLBA
6.4 Bell_Beaker_CZE_o
4.2 UKR_Chernyakhiv_Shyshaky
3.6 TKM_Parkhai_MBA
2.6 England_Roman_Near_Eastern_o
2.4 Baltic_LTU_Late_Antiquity_low_res
2.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Kalmykia
1.8 HUN_MA_Szolad_o1
1.0 Anatolia_Kumtepe_N_low_res
0.8 PAK_Saidu_Sharif_H_o
0.8 UZB_Bustan_BA_o1
0.6 VUT_150BP_all
0.4 Anatolia_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA_low_res
0.2 UZB_Sappali_Tepe_BA_o

[Dna8]

Not wanting to poach any thunder from Thread Father, but the below thread may interest some of you:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?309800-Utilize-This-Blank-Map-of-the-Balkans-to-Color-Her-Ancient-Illyrian-Thracian-and-Dacian-Zones

[Dna8]

Let us describe "Illyrians"/"Thracians"/"Dacians" as what they (truly and only) are!

Constructs!

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/21/e0/a1/21e0a1a6a84f0e27a01847f251dab719.gif