Is my mother ''German'' actually Germanised Slovenian?

[Jana]

She should be around 30% German, however she doesn't score any, not on FTDNA, not on DNA Land, not on gedmatch where she is little south from me.
One minor part of her German ancestry is from Alsace, and the biggest chunk (Danube Swabian) isn't known. My uncle claims it's from Austria.

Could their German ancestry be mostly Germanised Slovenian and that is why she scores like she does, and I get huge amount of Slovenian on 23andme.
My father is 1/8 NW Croat, but my eastern Euro/Slovenian chunk is far too large to be explained by that only.

On G25 I am came cloest to Slovenian minority from NE Italy.

My mother
https://i.imgur.com/Aj5zbuV.png

Me
https://i.imgur.com/fKaSisM.png

[Dna8]

All the best!

Subscribed!

[Jana]

I would add my and hers mtdna does seem very Germanic though, but autosomal absolutely not.

[Lucas]

I would add my and hers mtdna does seem very Germanic though, but autosomal absolutely not.

Post K36 results. Maybe it will be helpful for her.

[Mingle]

How much of her ancestry is from Alsace? Swabians from Swabia aren't genetically East-Central Euro like Austrians. But it's possible that Danube Swabian is a catch all phrase for Germans of many different backgrounds and it was genetically EE in her case.

[Lemgrant]

you should test her with 23andme. As you saw in case of Ljubic, no other test or calculator showed anything German or NW Euro for him, I explained why and with example. So those ftdna, g25 and gedmatch results are irrelevant.

[Benyzero]

How much of her ancestry is from Alsace?Swabians from Swabia aren't genetically East-Central Euro like Austrians. But it's possible that Danube Swabian is a catch all phrase for Germans of many different backgrounds and it was genetically EE in her case.

Danube schwabians are south germans predominantly

[Richmondbread]

The DNA tests are largely for entertainment purposes. I wouldn't trust them for anything.

[Jana]

Post K36 results. Maybe it will be helpful for her.

Amerindian -
Arabian -
Armenian 1.65
Basque -
Central_African -
Central_Euro 5.56
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 11.72
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 13.91
East_Med 2.76
Eastern_Euro 5.98
Fennoscandian 11.88
French 6.24
Iberian 10.11
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 12.23
Malayan -
Near_Eastern 1.64
North_African -
North_Atlantic 4.90
North_Caucasian 0.08
North_Sea 8.05
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural -
West_African -
West_Caucasian 2.06
West_Med 1.21

She has southern admixture too (Serb)

[Richmondbread]

You wasted your money, dear.

[Jana]

How much of her ancestry is from Alsace?Swabians from Swabia aren't genetically East-Central Euro like Austrians. But it's possible that Danube Swabian is a catch all phrase for Germans of many different backgrounds and it was genetically EE in her case.

Very small amount of her German is from Alsace, just one line (it's not Swabian). Rest is Swabian and they Danube Swabians were of diverse origins. Uncle say that Swabian was from Austria, but I did not see proof.

[Dunai]

Danube schwabians are south germans predominantly

While there were cases when the Habsburgs have colonized Hungary with Germans from Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg, the majority came from West Germany, like Alsace-Lorraine, Rhineland, Palatinate, Hesse. For example I traced back dozens towards hundreds of my Danube Swabian ancestors and almost couldn't find one from South Germany. The reason that they all got labeled Swabians is because they boarded boats from Ulm, in Swabia.

[Peterski]

Post her DNA Land. Does she have German matches on GEDmatch or elsewhere?

Her DNA Land shows 0% NW Euro?

[Samnium]

How much of her ancestry is from Alsace?Swabians from Swabia aren't genetically East-Central Euro like Austrians. But it's possible that Danube Swabian is a catch all phrase for Germans of many different backgrounds and it was genetically EE in her case.

And Alsatians aren't Germans genetically they are close to W.Germans surely but as other East French.

[Peterski]

And Alsatians aren't Germans genetically they are close to W.Germans surely but as other East French.

They are very close to Swiss Germans too. Quite a bit closer to them than Non-German East French.

[Samnium]

They are very close to Swiss Germans too. Way closer to them than Non-German East French.

I believe that Alsatians, Swiss Germans, French Swiss and also departements like Haute-Savoie (near Geneva) are close together. Atleast from what I've seen in PCAs, Swiss Germans being the more germanic shifted.

Strangely Burgundy seems less Germanic shifted. I'm always amazed by the boundaries that can exist in a country, an area more northern will plot more southern or things like that.

[Peterski]

I believe that Alsatians, Swiss Germans, French Swiss and also departements like Haute-Savoie (near Geneva) are close together. Atleast from what I've seen in PCAs, Swiss Germans being the more germanic shifted.

Yes and some Germans from Saarland, Baden-Württemberg, Upper Swabia and Bavaria are also "French-like" and this is due to strong Celtic influence.

Bronze Age South Germany was inhabited by people very similar to modern French. Pre-Germanic substrate in the region was similar to Gauls probably.

But most of South Germans are closer to "South Dutch" or "West German" than to "French" on GEDmatch.

[Samnium]

Yes and some Germans from Saarland, Baden-Württemberg, Upper Swabia and Bavaria are also "French-like" and this is due to strong Celtic influence.

Bronze Age South Germany was inhabited by people very similar to modern French. Pre-Germanic substrate in the region was similar to Gauls probably.

But most of South Germans are closer to "South Dutch" or "West German" than to "French" on GEDmatch.

French average would be a good approximation of an auvergnat I think. The french people that I've quoted are all in between the French and West German average.

[Peterski]

French average would be a good approximation of an auvergnat I think. The french people that I've quoted are all in between the French and West German average.

In Germany there is a sharp genetic border between Nordrhein-Westfalen and Rheinland-Pfalz.

Basically there is no intermediate "Central" zone*, you get either North German genetics or South German genetics.

But from Bavaria to Grand Est you have a Celto-Germanic continuum and a lot of similarity there:
(this continuum also extends into Belgium and South Netherlands, which are more southern-shifted than Westphalia)

https://i.imgur.com/tInGrK6.png

*If an intermediate zone exists then it must be very thin, just like intermediate NW French vs. SW French zone must be very thin.

In Western France, you also get either Breton-like genetics or Aquitanian-like genetics, with little or no intermediate "central" zone.


Strangely Burgundy seems less Germanic shifted.

Yes, definitely closer to Rhone-Alpes than to Alsace or regions further north. And Romandy (French Switzerland) is also like that.

[Jana]

you should test her with 23andme. As you saw in case of Ljubic, no other test or calculator showed anything German or NW Euro for him, I explained why and with example. So those ftdna, g25 and gedmatch results are irrelevant.

Ljubic scores German on 23andme in amount he expected, I don't (only 4 percent NW Euro and 2 percent French and German)

[Samnium]

In Germany there is a sharp genetic border between Nordrhein-Westfalen and Rheinland-Pfalz.

Basically there is no intermediate "Central" zone*, you get either North German genetics or South German genetics.

But from Bavaria to Grand Est you have a Celto-Germanic continuum and a lot of similarity there:
(this continuum also extends into Belgium and South Netherlands, which are more southern-shifted than Nordrhein)

https://i.imgur.com/tInGrK6.png

*If an intermediate zone exists then it must be very thin, just like intermediate NW French vs. SW French zone must be very thin.

In Western France, you also get either Breton-like genetics or Aquitanian-like genetics, with little or no intermediate "central" zone.

I think like in Germany there's a NW/SW-SE gap clearly.

See where people from Lyon in north plot, they are all north of the "French" average whereas southern french are either more southern or equally southern than it.


Yes, definitely closer to Rhone-Alpes than to Alsace or regions further north. And Romandy (French Switzerland) is also like that.

I think that Burgundy is more southern shifted than French Switzerland that borders Allemanic Switzerland, there's a barrier between these two regions called Jura, and Vosges in the north of Burgundy. I would go for the same conclusion for High-Savoy :

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/639054416669966376/655365702374522890/unknown.png

[Dunai]

She should be around 30% German, however she doesn't score any, not on FTDNA, not on DNA Land, not on gedmatch where she is little south from me.
One minor part of her German ancestry is from Alsace, and the biggest chunk (Danube Swabian) isn't known. My uncle claims it's from Austria.

Could their German ancestry be mostly Germanised Slovenian and that is why she scores like she does, and I get huge amount of Slovenian on 23andme.
My father is 1/8 NW Croat, but my eastern Euro/Slovenian chunk is far too large to be explained by that only.

On G25 I am came cloest to Slovenian minority from NE Italy.

My mother
https://i.imgur.com/Aj5zbuV.png

Me
https://i.imgur.com/fKaSisM.png

Based on what you reported, especially the lack of German regions on Gedmatch makes it pretty unlikely that she has any significant German ancestry. Real Danube Swabians should score much-much higher German regions, at least Austrian and East German, as most Hungarians with Danube Swabian ancestry score on Gedmatch. Definitely I would advise for searching in the archives about the birth certificates of her parents and grandparents, and so on. They could definitely make more light if they were Germanized Slavs or not, which seems to be the case. But I may be wrong, I'm just speculating.

[Peterski]

I think like in Germany there's a NW/SW-SE gap clearly.

Nope, there is no big difference between South-West and South-East Germany (Bavaria).

Slavic influence starts in Thuringia and is immediately very strong (already in Thuringia).

There is some Slavic influence in Obefranken, but it is not part of "historical Bavaria".

=====

Germany can be divided into three main genetic clusters:

- North-Western
- Southern (both SW and SE)
- Eastern (starts in Thuringia)

Thuringer Wald divides Eastern and Southern clusters:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/Th%C3%BCringer_Wald.png

Border between NW and Eastern clusters is in Mecklenburg.

[Jana]

Nope, there is no big difference between South-West and South-East Germany (Bavaria).

Slavic influence starts in Thuringia and is immediately very strong (already in Thuringia).

There is some Slavic influence in Obefranken, but it is not part of "historical Bavaria".

Before 23andme update I had Thuringia as region in Germany.

[Jana]

Based on what you reported, especially the lack of German regions on Gedmatch makes it pretty unlikely that she has any significant German ancestry. Real Danube Swabians should score much-much higher German regions, at least Austrian and East German, as most Hungarians with Danube Swabian ancestry score on Gedmatch. Definitely I would advise for searching in the archives about the birth certificates of her parents and grandparents, and so on. They could definitely make more light if they were Germanized Slavs or not, which seems to be the case. But I may be wrong, I'm just speculating.

This story is very bizzare. They were suposed to be part Jews too, possibly Greek as well but they get none of it.

And funny thing is my mom and her brother look like stereotypical Germans (blonds with square jaw and Faelid phenotype), but genetically only mtdna witness to that and the rest not.

[Samnium]

Nope, there is no big difference between South-West and South-East Germany (Bavaria).

Slavic influence starts in Thuringia and is immediately very strong (already in Thuringia).

There is some Slavic influence in Obefranken, but it is not part of "historical Bavaria".

=====

Germany can be divided into three main genetic clusters:

- North-Western
- Southern (both SW and SE)
- Eastern (starts in Thuringia)

Thuringer Wald divides Eastern and Southern clusters:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/Th%C3%BCringer_Wald.png

When I said NW/SW-SE I included SW and SE french in the same "population", there isn't that much difference between SW and SE French though SW are more Basque shifted for obvious reasons.

[Peterski]

^^^
Okay I misunderstood your post, I thought you meant there is a gap between SW and SE.

And you meant NW vs. SW-SE. Yes I agree, no big difference between SW and SE.

On the other hand, East Germany is very different from both North-Western and Southern.


When I said NW/SW-SE I included SW and SE french in the same "population"

There is more difference between SW French and SE French, than between SW German and SE German.

Provence is different than Aquitaine. Aquitanians are simply Latinized Basques. Aquitanians are not Celts.

[Samnium]

This story is very bizzare. They were suposed to be part Jews too, possibly Greek as well but they get none of it.

And funny thing is my mom and ger brother look like stereotypical Germans (blonds with square jaw and Faelid phenotype), bur genetically only mtdna make sense and the rest not.

The thing is that you can inherit various proportions and theoretically you should get 50/50 from your two parents but your plotting can be like "60% father" and "40% mother". What I observed by the way it's that most of the time it's the "father" side that shift the more. You can inherit little from one grandparent (or great-grandparent) and much more for another, it's not exactly 25/25/25/25, or 12.5/... . The more you go back in time the less you're "related".

[Jana]

I ordered mtdna full sequence on FTDNA few days ago by the way. I am H10e but interested in matches. It seems very Germanic/NW Euro based on modern distribution and ancient samples but we will see.

[Peterski]

Aquitanians are just Latinized Basques, while Provence has no Basque genetics at all.

It might have Iberian-like genes, but they do not share Basque-specific genetic drift.

And of course Italian-like admixture is the strongest in South-Eastern France.

[Jana]

Post her DNA Land. Does she have German matches on GEDmatch or elsewhere?

Her DNA Land shows 0% NW Euro?

0% NW Euro on DNA Land. I am on mobile so can't post it.
She scores 15% Finnish on DNA Land, it doesn't make sense.

[Samnium]

^^^
Okay I misunderstood your post, I thought you meant there is a gap between SW and SE.

And you meant NW vs. SW-SE. Yes I agree, no big difference between SW and SE.

On the other hand, East Germany is very different from both North-Western and Southern.



There is more difference between SW French and SE French, than between SW German and SE German.

Provence is different than Aquitaine. Aquitanians are simply Latinized Basques. Aquitanians are not Celts.

Yes Aquitanians are Basque people that retained less the "original" profile of this region. Aquitanians were clearly separated from Celts I agree. To me Celtic areas begin around Auvergne (Vercingetorix was an auvergnat).

The G25 average of Marseille is N.Italian like, I would expect this only from areas close to Italy though. Others will show some influence of course but not to the point of plotting in N.Italy. We can discuss that on another thread if you want !

[Jana]

The thing is that you can inherit various proportions and theoretically you should get 50/50 from your two parents but your plotting can be like "60% father" and "40% mother". What I observed by the way it's that most of the time it's the "father" side that shift the more. You can inherit little from one grandparent (or great-grandparent) and much more for another, it's not exactly 25/25/25/25, or 12.5/... . The more you go back in time the less you're "related".

Yes, my father is genetically much closer to me and I look more like him too, apart from hair color and some little details.

[21993]

q

Oracle might give her a better estimation I guess.

[Peterski]

"Geographical traces of the Basque language in Roman times; blue patch: maximum extension":

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9e/Euskararen_aztarna_geografikoak.svg/1024px-Euskararen_aztarna_geografikoak.svg.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9e/Euskararen_aztarna_geografikoak.svg/1024px-Euskararen_aztarna_geografikoak.svg.png

It is surprising how well genetics still follows those bygone linguistic divisions.

And the same in East Germany, "Limes Sorabicus" can be still seen in genes:

https://www.theapricity.com/earlson/reeh/maps/mapxx.jpg

https://www.theapricity.com/earlson/reeh/maps/mapxx.jpg

^^^
This thick line in the east:

https://i.imgur.com/dgRn58D.png

[Lemgrant]

Ljubic scores German on 23andme in amount he expected, I don't (only 4 percent NW Euro and 2 percent French and German)

you have 7.8% broadly Euro , that can be anything, including German. And you score 4% NW at 50% speculative level after smoothing, which means that if you have many 30% German/ 70% South Euro segments, the German part is completely ignored and they assign only South Euro at 50% speculative level results.

[Lemgrant]

https://customercare.23andme.com/hc/en-us/articles/115004491928-Using-the-Advanced-Features-in-Ancestry-Composition

Confidence Levels
The algorithm we use to calculate your Ancestry Composition analyzes one small piece of your DNA at a time. For each piece of your DNA, we calculate the probability of that piece coming from 45 different populations. Each prediction is also linked to our confidence that the call is correct. By default, Ancestry Composition requires that our confidence in a prediction be greater than 50%. This confidence threshold allows the most DNA to be assigned and provides the most interesting view of your ancestry.

If you’d like to explore these assignments at a more advanced level, click on “Change confidence level” and move the slider that appears above your Chromosome Painting. The confidence slider on the Chromosome Painting allows you to explore our estimates of your genetic ancestry at different probability cutoffs. For example, if a segment of your DNA has a 55 percent chance of being Japanese, then that segment will be painted as Japanese at the 50 percent confidence level, but it will be painted with a more broad ancestry (either Broadly Japanese & Korean, Broadly East Asian & Native American, or Unassigned) at the 60 to 90 percent confidence levels.

[Jana]

you have 7.8% broadly Euro , that can be anything, including German. And you score 4% NW at 50% speculative level after smoothing, which means that if you have many 30% German/ 70% South Euro segments, the German part is completely ignored and they assign only South Euro at 50% speculative level results.

Thanks for clarification!

[Benyzero]

While there were cases when the Habsburgs have colonized Hungary with Germans from Bavaria and Baden-Württemberg, the majority came from West Germany, like Alsace-Lorraine, Rhineland, Palatinate, Hesse. For example I traced back dozens towards hundreds of my Danube Swabian ancestors and almost couldn't find one from South Germany. The reason that they all got labeled Swabians is because they boarded boats from Ulm, in Swabia.

Okay. Good to know. I knew there is another input but zhought that is from only old times in the time of goths, frankish kingdom etc.

[SharpFork]

"Geographical traces of the Basque language in Roman times; blue patch: maximum extension":

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9e/Euskararen_aztarna_geografikoak.svg/1024px-Euskararen_aztarna_geografikoak.svg.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9e/Euskararen_aztarna_geografikoak.svg/1024px-Euskararen_aztarna_geografikoak.svg.png

It is surprising how well genetics still follows those bygone linguistic divisions.

And the same in East Germany, "Limes Sorabicus" can be still seen in genes:

https://www.theapricity.com/earlson/reeh/maps/mapxx.jpg

https://www.theapricity.com/earlson/reeh/maps/mapxx.jpg

^^^
This thick line in the east:

https://i.imgur.com/dgRn58D.png

If so which historical border does the North-West/South German division follow? La-Tene/Hallstatt? Roman Empire(pre-250)? Would people from West of the Rhine in Nordrhein-Westfalen look like they southern neighbour or like Lower Saxons? If they do with the former it would look a lot like the La Tene border and also a lot like the Low German and High German dialectal division.

[Peterski]

If so which historical border does the North-West/South German division follow?

Two: Roman Limes (in the north-west) and Celtic settlement area (in the north-east):

https://i.imgur.com/zGyIbh5.png

Roman Limes (red line) and approximate northern border of Celtic settlement areas:

https://i.imgur.com/ipPgg8t.jpg

^^^
And dialectal divisions (High German vs. Low German) as well, but this is rather coincident.

Because according to modern linguists, High German expanded north at the cost of Low German only during the Middle Ages - and it stopped expanding close to the genetic border, which is interesting, maybe genetic predispositions to certain types of pronunciation played a role?

E.g. Afro-Americans pronounce English in an "African-sounding" way, maybe due to genetics.

[Lucas]

I think like in Germany there's a NW/SW-SE gap clearly.

See where people from Lyon in north plot, they are all north of the "French" average whereas southern french are either more southern or equally southern than it.



I think that Burgundy is more southern shifted than French Switzerland that borders Allemanic Switzerland, there's a barrier between these two regions called Jura, and Vosges in the north of Burgundy. I would go for the same conclusion for High-Savoy :

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/639054416669966376/655365702374522890/unknown.png

Ok, with new French academic and north Italian samples (some from Gedmatch too). Correspondence Analysis Plot in K36.

Burgundy is indeed closer to Central France. Franche-Comte which is not surprise is close to French Swiss. Savoie is rather south shifted.
Alsace is nearly like German Swiss. Lorraine like Luxembourg. Saarland is tiny reference, probably should be more close to Rheinland with more samples.
Wallons here are not close to Normandy but Hauts de France in reality.

Distance to SW France is exagerated because I zoomed plot for seeing longer names.

https://i.imgur.com/N7ArEmv.png

[Lucas]

And dendrogram for aforementioned region

https://i.imgur.com/q2k8LxN.png

[SharpFork]

And dialectal divisions (High German vs. Low German) as well, but this is rather coincident.

Because according to modern linguists, High German expanded north at the cost of Low German only during the Middle Ages - and it stopped expanding close to the genetic border, which is interesting, maybe genetic predispositions to certain types of pronunciation played a role?

I don't think the genetic argument for pronunciation makes sense, because both dialectla groups changed considerably from original pronunciation in different ways, in any case from which originial border did the northern expansion of High German happen?

[Jana]

Post her DNA Land. Does she have German matches on GEDmatch or elsewhere?

Her DNA Land shows 0% NW Euro?

Actually she gets a little 3% NW Euro, my father gets much more :laugh:
https://i.imgur.com/7D7g4KW.png

14% Finnish, where is that coming from? :lightbul:

[Roy]

Nope, there is no big difference between South-West and South-East Germany (Bavaria).

Slavic influence starts in Thuringia and is immediately very strong (already in Thuringia).

There is some Slavic influence in Obefranken, but it is not part of "historical Bavaria".

=====

Germany can be divided into three main genetic clusters:

- North-Western
- Southern (both SW and SE)
- Eastern (starts in Thuringia)

Thuringer Wald divides Eastern and Southern clusters:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/Th%C3%BCringer_Wald.png

Border between NW and Eastern clusters is in Mecklenburg.


Intresting as I do remember finding Germans from Köln, Mainz much more abundant (like twice) in alien faces (that would be outright foreign looking here( and types as I can reminisce from my trips there than those in Berlin, Leipzig etc.

[Tchek]

There's also the Uerdinger line
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/Uerdinger_und_Karlsruher_Linie.png/450px-Uerdinger_und_Karlsruher_Linie.png
It's separating Platt-Deutsch/Dutch to middle german. "Ich" becomes "Ik" and "Machen" becomes "Maken". What's interesting is that this shift occurs also in Langue d'Oil. If you continue the Uerdinger line in Belgium, cutting Wallonia in two part then it goes on in France where you get the Joret Line, you have the same division. "Echapper" becomes "Escaper" (like in English), "Jambe" becomes "Gambe", "Chat" becomes "Cat" (like in English), "Vache" becomes "Vaque"...